Wednesday, June 03, 2009

Three Black Swans...

In the Key to the Whole Game, I suggested that the Island is a place where the laws of quantum mechanics apply at a macroscopic scale. Like Doc Jensen at EW.com, I believe this makes the Island a source of miraculous Black Swan events that change what's "supposed" to happen against all odds. So far, we've witnessed two such miracles, and I'm guessing we'll see a third before the show is done. These three Black Swans are integral to Jacob's plan to save us all.



The Valenzetti Equation. Before going further, let me clarify one important piece of mythology you may not have picked up from the show -- the Valenzetti Equation. Here's all you need to know courtesy of Team Darlton themselves from a 2009 interview with E-Online:
The Hanso Foundation that started the Dharma Initiative hired this guy Valenzetti to basically work on this equation to determine what was the probability of the world ending in the wake of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Valenzetti basically deduced that it was 100 percent within the next 27 years, so the Hanso Foundation started the Dharma Initiative in an effort to try to change the variables in the equation so that mankind wouldn't wipe it itself out.
The Valenzetti is a mathematical expression of our destiny as a species. When someone saves the world on Lost, they do so against the dictates of fate. The universe then course corrects, resetting the doomsday clock. That's what the Man in Black and Jacob debate with the Black Rock off in the distance. Since ancient times, Jacob has brought people to the Island to create Black Swan events that postpone our extinction -- an exercise the Man in Black finds futile. None of what we've seen was supposed to happen, but all of it must or "God help us all."



Black Swan 1: The Incident. The first miracle is the one just depicted in the Season 5 finale. DHARMA was supposed to cause an extinction-level event by drilling at the Swan site, but our Losties changed that by causing the Incident instead. Daniel was right that Ms. Hawking lied about this being their destiny. They're "variables" precisely because the Incident wasn't supposed to happen, so "whatever happened, happened" doesn't apply. Eloise's lie was a noble one meant to preserve the fragile time loop in which our Losties save the world.



That's also why Jacob touches several key players in the Incident at pivotal moments in their lives. Because this isn't their destiny, he can't simply depend on course correction to get them where they need to be. Maybe the best example is when Jacob gives the pen to little James. If the latter doesn't finish that letter, chase the real Sawyer to Australia, crash on the Island, travel back in time, and pull a Han Solo, the assault by Jack and Co. on the Swan site most likely fails. The world ends right there in 1977.



Black Swan 2: The Fail-Safe. The second event is also one we've already seen. The Incident merely reset the countdown to catastrophe. The Swan button protocol was supposed to finish the job, but Desmond saved the world in defiance of the Valenzetti by activating the Fail-Safe. The catch is that, like the Incident, none of this was supposed to happen. When Desmond traveled back in time, he too was a variable who could have changed things despite the rule of "whatever happened, happened." Don't you dare rewrite history, Desmond!



That's why Ms. Hawking intervenes to prevent Desmond from proposing to Penny. As with our Losties, Eloise lies when she implies it's his destiny to go to the Island. Here again, however, her lie is a noble one meant to preserve the miraculous timeline in which the world is saved. If Des doesn't choose to go to the Island, press the button, and turn the key, then as Ms. Hawking says, every single one of us is dead. The Swan implosion sucks up everything on Earth, ending the world in 2004. As Jon G notes, that's exactly 27 years after the Incident.

Here's the really hellish part. Ms. Hawking realizes that Black Swans 1 and 2 are inextricably linked by the time loop we've witnessed -- it's all one big predestination paradox. Our Losties can't cause the Incident in 1977 unless Desmond turns the key in 2004, and vice versa. Eloise, moreover, only knows about these events because of Daniel's notebook. That's why she sends Daniel to the Island despite knowing he will die at her own hands. Ms. Hawking sacrifices her only son to complete the causal loop that saves the world.



The Man in Black's Loophole. The Man in Black knows this loop is necessary and cynically exploits it to his advantage. He uses the Smoke Monster to make a copy of Christian's body, then tricks Claire into helping him enter the Cabin. This allows the Man in Black to claim to speak for Jacob when Locke arrives looking for help. The Man in Black instructs Locke to move the Island, but omits crucial information on how to do so. When Ben turns the Wheel off its axis, the Man in Black uses the resulting time skips to get Locke off the Island and plant the notion that he must die.



All of this is the Man in Black's plan to to create the Loophole that enables him to kill Jacob. I think the rules of their game are simple. Neither player can kill the other -- the Man in Black must persuade someone else to do the deed. Jacob's death, moreover, must take place inside the Foot, where only his Chosen Ones can enter -- notice how even Richard stops at the door. That's why the Man in Black goes to such elaborate lengths to obtain Locke's corpse. The Man in Black needs to copy the body so he can enter Foot as Locke and incite Ben to murder.

It's so diabolical when you think about it. The Man in Black knows that, even if Jacob and Eloise discover his plot, they can't stop him for fear of disrupting the delicate chain of events leading to the Incident and Fail-Safe. So confident is the Man in Black that, as Zombie Christian, he actually directs Locke to find Eloise knowing she has to send Locke's body back to the Island with the Oceanic 6 to ensure they end up in the past. What the Man in Black fails to realize is that Jacob has been running his own long con to create Black Swan number three.

Black Swan 3: The Omega Point. The third miracle is one we're about to see. If I'm right about the Valenzetti, the Fail-Safe simply delayed our extinction until no later than 2031. Jacob hopes to end this vicious cycle for good by creating the Omega Point. The term was coined by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin to describe a global collective consciousness that he believed we're evolving towards as a species. The concept is quite simiar to the new-age Gnostic notion of the Supermind that I described in 108: Restoring the Lost Sun.

The clue to Jacob's objective is the book he reads while Locke falls in the background. Everything That Rises Must Converge is a collection of short stories by Flannery O'Connor, who took the title from Teilhard's description of the Omega Point. Ironically, O'Connor's stories feature characters who exhibit the sort of bias and prejudice that the Omega Point aspires to overcome. The book works well as a metaphor for Jacob's plan to permanently cure what the Man in Black described as humanity's tendancy to fight, destroy, and corrupt.



Before that can happen, however, both Jacob and the Man in Black must die. The Island is a Vast Active Living Intelligence System that regulates our biosphere -- basically, the brain of the world. Like the human brain, it has right and left sides that should work together as a unified whole. Unfortunately, some ancient trauma gave the Island what amounts to Dissociative Identity Disorder, creating two opposing personalities, light and dark. Jacob and the Man in Black aren't supposed to be perpetual adversaries. Their division prevents our evolution as a species.

The only solution is to wipe the planetary brain clean and start from tabula rasa. The Man in Black believes the murderous Loophole is all his idea. But Jacob sees it coming a mile away and uses the Loophole to make both of their deaths a fait accompli. He manipulates the Man in Black into assuming Locke's physical form, which leaves the latter vulnerable to being killed. As Locke, moreover, the Man in Black has publicly declared his desire to kill the Others' beloved leader. No wonder he doesn't seem particularly triumphant upon kicking Jacob's body into the fire.



When Jacob and the Man in Black are dead, two new avatars must take their place. To heal the Island's division, however, they must transcend the opposition of light and dark. For this reason, I believe Jacob and the Man in Black's replacements will be a man and woman in love. My inspiration here is Aristophanes's account of love in Plato's Symposium. Once, according to Aristophanes, human beings were round creatures with two heads. Fearing our strength, the gods split human bodies in two. Love is the desire to make yourself whole again by finding your other half. Kind of like the Yin-Yang.




I'm guessing, moreover, that the happy couple will be two children of the Island we've already met. One half is Aaron, who was conceived off the Island but born on it. The other is Ji-Yeon, who was conceived on the Island but born off it. Remember what Sun tells little Ji-Yeon on the phone? "I met a new friend for you in America. His name is Aaron." I believe that East will eventually meet West and fall in love. Everything that rises must converge on a Lost wedding between Aaron and Ji-Yeon before 2031. Our survival as a species depends on it...



As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

411 comments:

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Capcom said...

GT, Mitchell has been around on TV and movies since the '90s. She was great in a JAG episode playing a helo pilot who got into some fraternizing trouble with a fellow officer. She also played James Caviezel's wife in Frequency (w/ black hair), and she is adorable in Santa Claus 2 and/or 3.

:-)

Capcom said...

P.S. In case it's not obvious, I do recommend looking up some of her previous work. :-B

Greg Tramel said...

i will, and i just watched Frequency not too long ago but did not make the connection, maybe it was before my bad crush on Elizabeth

speaking of time travel movies, somebody watch Primer and explain it to me

dz77 said...

Hello there.
I apologize in advance for not reading all the comments here, but I wanted to put in my 2 cents on your discussion of the nature of MIB/Smokey/Chrisitan/Jacob. Bear with me here....

Let's consider some important scenes from season 5 and try to put the pieces together.

First scene, Namaste: Sun and Frank approach the main island in their canoe and we hear smokey. They enter the processing center to find Christian who tells Sun she must follow Locke if she wants to see Jin. (note that notLocke has not appeared to anyone at this point).

Second scene, Dead is Dead: sometime after this Ben and notLocke canoe to the main island. NotLocke heads out to the jungle while Ben finds Frank and Sun in his old house... they tell Ben that Christian told them to wait for Locke. Later Ben summons Smokey says "I can't control what come out of that jungle" and notLocke walks out of the jungle on cue.

Third scene, Dead is Dead: notLocke leads Ben to Smokey's chamber and conveniently leaves Ben alone. Next Smokey appears. Smokey leaves and an Alex manisfestaton appears. Alex leaves and notLocke reappears.

Forth scene, The Incident: we find out MIB is notLocke via Jacob's loophole comment.

Conclusion- MIB=Smokey=Chrisitan=notLocke=notAlex=notYemi=etc...

My idea in a nutshell is that MIB can manifest as Christian, Alex, and anyone else that's dead just like he can manifest as notLocke. He can also manifest in the form of Smokey, and can induce visions and dreams. (I believe Jacob functions the same way, though there is less evidence). There are limitations here. MIB can only manifest as one entity at a time... just like you can only make one chess move at a time.
Michael Emerson said in a recent interview something along the lines of the Island has some sort of a 'ghost projector' as part of its 'machinery'. Well, he was speaking figuratively, but I'm saying that MIB and Jacob both have access to this 'Island machinery' and in fact they are not just projecting ghosts, but manifesting physically as dead peopole

note: it's *possible* that MIB doesn't manifest as smokey but just 'operates' smokey like a mental remote control, but I doubt it.

Sooo, this means that all past references to the powers or the will of "the Island" are misdirected (i.e. the sacrifices the island demands). It's not "the Island" doing these things or guiding Losties, it's either MIB or Jacob. And that's the killer game changer.

sounds a bit crazy, and very supernatural, but all the pieces seem to fit.

(p.s. bigmouth had a great idea of the bodies needing to be 'copied' by Jacob or MIB before they can manifest as those bodies)

Capcom said...

LOL, GT, I don't even think that I understand the summary of Primer on IMDB! X-D Is it a good enough movie to spend a couple bucks on it if I see it at the used bookstore?

I remembered last night that Mitchell actually plays Caviezal's mother. Yes, the black wig threw me off at first too, that was before Lost and I only knew her from JAG at that point. The interesting thing about Frequency is how it's explained on one of the science fact parts of the extras, i.e., that it's not about time travel via body, but via information....sort of. You've seen it so you know what I mean, father and son just pass info to redirect......the spoilery thingies. It's also interesting how.........spoiler.........as they do redirect, the furniture changes in their house, etc. It's maybe a clue as to why certain things are changing on Lost, such as the pictures and frames. Maybe Frequency is also an inspiration for TPTB in some cases and we should really be looking at it like that? But it's really too soon to tell about that at this point without further info from TPTB. S6 speculation....sigh.

Great thoughts DZ! :-)

Capcom said...

Thinking more about the changing sets/props/costumes, I wonder if the island's possible instability, possibly caused by the anomalies' instabilites, actually jiggles the universe and therefore changes small details in it? Not significant things, just the minor things. Don't know how that would work, and don't really think that's the case on the show, but it's a weird thought that e.g., the energy pocket, or the natural Casimir properties, shimmies our universe adjacent to the other possible (M-theory) universes, and little details get jostled about. But that's more of a Fringe story detail. Although it would explain why you can't find your keys when you distinctly recall where you last placed them. Or, those missing left socks in the laundry. :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I'm assuming there are no new comments because everyone is watching Top Chef Masters over and over again. I'm going to check out Hulu for it, even though the Hulu announcer's voice scares me more than Daniel Haysbert on the Allstate commercials.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Sorry, all of these new posts seemed to mysteriously post as I was typing, what, thirty words. This blog is haunted.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Actually, I think I was stuck at comment 200 again. I do agree that we seem to know more about how MIB manifests than we do Jacob, but, really, they never showed up in person until the very last episode we've seen. The Smoke Monster has been around in some form since the first episode, though I'm still uncertain why the science team called it the security system. I was playing awhile back that temple=temporal as in Temporal Security System. Maybe Jacob brings people to the Island and then has a meet with MIB and they decide who they need to cull. (I'd like to really know what happened to the Black Rockers in regards to the "progress" on the Island, because we would then know if they were the original Hostiles.) Jacob and MIB let the fighting go on but at some point they have to decide (as with Walt) who needs to either die or be sent off the Island. Was Walt a threat because he could eventually run into MIB in one of his various forms and thus he had to either get brainwashed or, when that didn't take, given back to Michael?

Capcom said...

I suppose that all we can guess about Smokey in regards to security is that what the B612 guy said about it matches with Radzinsky calling it Cerberus. That's all we've got to go on for now.

Hey, from your fingers to TPTBs brains, about getting info on the Black Rock. Come one guys, give us the rest of the story!

I read a blog article today where the poster said something about how TPTB called their story a puzzle that we don't have all the pieces to yet, and how at the end of S5 we seem to have too many pieces to put together! That is, a 1000 piece puzzle that we were given 1500 pieces for. I really had to laff at that analogy. :-D

I would not be surprised if they had to get rid of Walt to keep him from possibly harming Jacob, by being too powerful and too out of control (typical teenager, haha). On the other hand, it doesn't even feel to me like Walt even fits into the story anymore. One of those "extra pieces" if you will.

Greg Tramel said...

i wouldn't really call Primer a great movie, just a real head scratcher but we have to watch ALL the time travel movies out there don't when

Capcom, a character in Frequency is named Jack Shepard, i LIKE your idea about Lost scenery changes being like Frequency scenery changes

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i STILL want MORE MORE MORE Black Rock crew & Other's (unless they are 1 in the same which could very well be) backstories

actually i would REALLY like to see flashbacks of when the hieroglyphics were done and we NEED to FINALLY see that dang temple

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, like your idea of trusting the MiB's "side" more than the Jacob's "side", reminds me what Frank said about the bad guys always going around saying their the good guys

Capcom, maybe between the time Miles went upstairs to find the stash and then went back down the stairs seeing the changing photos the island "planet" moved jostling some little things around on earth, it's as good as any explanation that anybody has come up so far that i'm aware of

dz77, i don't think we've seen Jacob & Smokie together either (as far as i know, but maybe your right MiB is Smokie as the same being and visa versa)

i find it difficult to infer MiB/Smokie/reanimated bodies as separate beings from the Island and/or Jacob, so far, i will most likely change my mind after season 6 is said and done.

i think of Island/MiB/Smokie/Jacob/reanimated dead bodies as all being parts of the whole and are so interconnected it's hard to parse them out and definitively prove who/what is on which "side"

i see the island as made up all these parts as a Sentient being

Greg Tramel said...

or rather a Sentient Planet

dz77 said...

Greg, i definitely see your point about the 'sentient island' and i think this is very much up for grabs at this point.

So,we know the island is in a 'bubble' moving through space and time. We know that it has two huge pockets of exotic matter, but from my perspective, I haven't seen anything that makes me think the island is sentient... that it has a will or a consciousness. I see it as Jacob and MIB (who seem to be supernatural beings) using the 'machinery' or unique qualities of the island.
From my POV, it is Jacob who heals people, not the island, and so on.

my view does take away from the mystique of the island tho :\

Greg Tramel said...

dz77, i see your point and maybe i'm anthropomorphizing the island a bit too much but at the same time i sense the island trying to communicate with our characters

a select few seem to be intuned with that communication like maybe Locke and/or maybe the Others are able to receive the island's communications

What about Ben (as Jacob said), he just couldn't quite get intuned with what the island wanted even though he faithfully attempted to have some reverence for Jacob

but i suppose it could be Jacob & MiB, ( & maybe the whispers which could very well be MiB) doing all the communication instead of the island

i wonder Jacob and MiB want (instead of the island wanting)

i wonder how much the Other's & the Statue Shadow cult really know about Jacob

i wonder if the Others and the Statue Shadow cult know about MiB

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, re: the science team, going back to Danielle telling Sayid's it name, it is the word 'system' and not 'securiry' that interests me. A system seems to imply setting it up, i.e., I wouldn't call MIB a system, but Smokey would be a system of communication used by MIB. Does that make sense the way I typed it?

@Greg, the producers have done a pretty decent job re: getting us answers, and the time jumps certainly helped. I've brought up the Nikki/Paulo episode before, because it covered 70 days or so and provided us with retro-info, such as how they discovered the Pearl and Paulo overheard Ben & Juliet talking. (Plus we got the Russian egg doll.) The next time they tried anything close, I'd say, was with "The Incident." My guess is that there will be a Widmore/Eloise flashback in S6. Widmore knows about the Black Rock and, through his years on the Island, maybe we'd get more of that history.

Anonymous said...

OK, a quick note about "souls." Whenever they show shots of feet and shoes it's almost always from a perspective where the "sole" (i.e., "soul") of the shoe is in front. Ji-Yeon is being watched by her grandmother in "Seoul" South Korea. When Jack puts his father's (aka, now smoke monster on island) shoes on Locke he is putting his father's "soul" into him. Anything here?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Nice observation, anon. I'd add that whereas we see Jack putting the shoes on Locke, the POV being the top of the shoes, the very first scene in the first episode is, as you say, Locke's foot from the POV of the bottom of the foot. Yet, he was shoeless, he was wiggling his gold-toe sock. The writers are adept with word play and I'll bet the soles/souls thing came up right away (in aviation lingo, if, say, there were 200 passengers on a doomed flight, they'd say there were 200 souls on board). Nice idea re: Jack and his dad.

Capcom said...

TGIWeekend, fellow Sickies! :-D

That's exactly what I was thinking GT, about the pix on the stairs, etc. Altho I guess that it could even be said that what Miles did upstairs shifted things too, heheh. But staying on track with the island doing it, those could even be course corrections happening, if we wanted to get really complicated about it (which I wouldn't, at least not in that direction). :-o And you're right about its communication, TPTB have even told us (via character dialogue) that the island "told" people to do things. Whether that's literal or figurative, remains to be elaborated upon...in S6 hopefully!!!!

I like your idea about the island being a separate entity/planet/etc. It makes me think that it could also be an asteroid that survived plunking in the ocean, and then eventually growing vegetation like an island devastated by volcanic activity can eventually do. And it could also be a neat explanation of the powerful mangetic/cosmic properties of it, since who knows where it came from in outer space, i.e. what exotic properties it acquired out there in its formation or travels. Kinda makes me think that the Little Prince's island fell onto the earth. Are there any similarities of characters in the book that are like Jacob and the MIB? I seem to recall the Little Prince having some heated debates with other characters in the book on his planet (but not the film, which is all that I have to go by for now).


Sure Wayne, that makes sense to me! The "system" term can come into play from Radzinski's notation of Cerberus "vents", implying an arrangement of ducts and openings that Smokey uses. We literally saw a "vent" when Ben went to get judged, and Smokey came out of a sort of grate with holes in it. That would not exactly mean that Smokey it/him-self was a system though, just the entire Smokey-plus-tunnels-plus-vents configuration could comprise the "security system".

Nice thoughts Anon. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Well, my comment got sucked away. I'll try again later.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big has mentioned before about the Island being sentient and possibly from space, I'd be curious as to if it broke apart before impact, part of it becoming Ayers Rock and another Beacon Rock in Portland.

@Capcom, what I'm getting at was that the science team called it a security system after they went down the hole after Montaund. Those two words have always stood out ever since Danielle mentioned them to Sayid in S1. We've seen the vents but I've always thought that s.s. was a pretty formal way for the science team to use. Of course, they WERE a science team, maybe Smokey spoke to them in scientific terms.

Capcom said...

Oh sure, I thought that it was a pretty weird thing for him to say as well. I would have expected, "It's just a bear sweetie, nothing to worry about", or something silly and false like that. I kind of went, "Huh?" when he said it, even though we already knew that's what Smokey was. And I was surprised that she didn't ask why the heck an island needs a security system! :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I bummed around Lostpedia last night and I guess the phrase makes sense now, I'm just thinking how it seems like a phrase that a PERSON would tell the science team, like MIB. I'm assuming MIB and Jacob weren't running around inhabiting dead people until MIB discovered his loophole, so MIB could easily have been hanging around the Temple in 1988.

I think that the Swan and the Orchid are fairly close, and the statue and temple on opposite sides forming a square. It just seems like the Orchid was almost as close to the beach camp as the Swan, Tarawet on the horizon, because it is a kabillion feet tall, and Jin & the science team seemed close to the beach. OK, a goofy looking square, a rhomboid maybe? But I kind of think the Orchid and the Swan are hitting the same pocket of energy, which quite possibly originates under the temple. Just making conversation now.

annebeth said...

This theory is wonderful!! I think you hit the nail on the head here, totally!

My congratulations :)

Capcom said...

I've always felt that way about the Swan and the Orchid too Wayne. I've been meaning to take a look at the various versions of the blast door map, to see what I can make out with what we know as of S5. There are a lot of tunnels there on the map (crossed out and otherwise), and with what we've recently learned, we might be able to make out more possibilities.

I really wish that there were better maps of the isalnd as we know it out there. Or better yet, that TPTB would release a map of what we could know up to this point. I'm so tired of guessing where everything is, and it would be a shame to not have any genuine info to go by until the entire show is over. And I don't really agree with all the fan-made maps out there, and, they don't all agree with each other either. :-(

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The only real thing I've picked up from S5 is when they are in the outrigger and Locke says that the Orchid is right around the bend. In general, the fan-based maps seem to have areas jutting out, like where the science team landed. I've taken the Island to be fairly straight on the west side (?) and so that bend Locke mentions is the only real curve. That might be different up near the Barracks, which brings up the fact that if they built the Orchid anywhere near there, Jughead would blow up. Going by a clock face, I'd say the Swan is at 6, the Orchid closer to 8, with the statue at 9. The temple is likely much bigger underground, and is closer to the Pearl on the BD Map, the Pearl is likely closer to the Barracks. I'm just a sucker for maps. For this last interval, I really am looking forward to an ARG.

Capcom said...

I love maps too! Well, having done a little research this evening on what fans have updated, there are still discrepencies about where the Hydra and the LG are placed. I just got caught up at Yung23's forum (Yung23's the best mapper of all fans) and this is the general consensus over there (sic):


"What I totally dislike is the evidence that the production of Lost have got NO IDEA about where stations are placed, where the barraks are and all the rest of the locations. Everytime there is a new map in an episode, is more and more clear that things are placed random just to put them because "it's cool".

Production's maps simply make no sense and are not congruent with each other. Dialogue lines between characters about "moving from here to there passing through anywhere" reflect it. I'm really disappointed with them for not paying any kind of attention about this argument. Seems like most places are like Jacob's cabin, floating around.

It's really sad that it's up to fans like you and like me place things together in a correct way while the production keeps on mistaking. This makes your work even more hard."


So Wayne, that makes me feel better somewhat, because I thought that I was the only one having a hard time keeping the terrain straight in my head according to what we've seen and heard. Yung23 and friends have been working on the island cartogrpahy since the beginning (and I like theirs the best), and if they don't get it, then I'm not going to be too hard on myself if I can't. :o)

I posted Yung23's collage of the maps we've seen so far here: link

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I do like Yung23's maps, too. I did come across one (not by him) that pushes the Pearl to the east and does show the Orchid nearer the Swan, with the Staff and the Flame closest to the Barracks. Presumably, the vagaries of how the producers choose locations is because LOST is ON location, not green-screened. I suppose a good example as any is explaining the crater we always see from the beach camp, but you'd think 3 years after the BD Map, we'd get more, instead of "grids." The only real thing I understand better is Tom's line in the sand, because the Others just wanted their area and we now know that both the DI and the various crash survivors were allowed to roam freely because of Jacob's idea of "progress." I suppose the Barracks are where we saw the army tents in 1954, and that the Hostiles moved to wherever they go after they buried Jughead. Again, I'm just moving the blog along, figure I'd bring up the maps.

Capcom said...

Yes, I'm not sure that I feel right with the placement of all the stations (on anyone's map) either. But I don't have any better suggestions, as long as we would have to keep them in the bagua shape for the most part. I assumed that the Flame was much farther north than in Yung23's map, but what do I know. And I thought that pehaps the Orchid was closer to the Swan as well, from what was said in the films.

Mostly, in posting Yung23's collage, I was showing his efforts in morphing the pieces of maps that we've seen into a total area, which was a great idea. But I think that I do agree with his station placemennt more than anyone else's.

TPTB do use a heck of a lot of CGI, so I wouldn't mind if they computered up some bird's eye views of the island in total! And speaking of CGI, I thought that for as fast as the sub was moving, that there should have been more water displacement in front of the turret, or whatever it's called. My eyes and brain just expected to see more waves there for the speed. Anyway.....that's totally OT. :-B

:-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Maybe it was the Island's surrounding that made the sub not displace much water. Who knows. You're right about the map morphing. I can't do that kind of thing if they paid me.

Capcom said...

Heheh, right Wayne, it was the island's "heavy water" which was mentioned in TLE. **buh-dum-pshhh!**

Nothing in this show is there by mistake, right? :o)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Everything happens for a reason, from the S1 promo. I still am amazed how well this show has remained on track and that ABC didn't give up on it, rather they worked with different formats.

When I mentioned before how Jughead is buried beneath 1954 Tent Town, I did recall when Richard said they brough the bomb through a different entrance than under the waterfall. Killing two (or three) birds there, the military camp, the Hostiles, the Barracks, all the same. Was the 1954 massacre part of the "progress" Jacob wanted? Did he then tell Richard to keep the Hostiles moving around so that they wouldn't interfere with future visitors to the Island, most notable the DI and the science team? Is Jacob the one behind the truce, or was it both Jacob and MIB? I really do believe that these two share a lot in common, it's not just black vs. white.

Capcom said...

I really like your idea about why the Hostiles moved around. I suppose that we should assume that Jacob wanted to keep allowing mankind to play out its drama on the island, as we saw in the convo between him and MIB, via whatever visitors came its way.

But one does then have to wonder why it was OK to kill off the USArmy, as you mention. We could assume that the Army was going to try to pack them up and move them to another island so the atomic tests could be done (as per Bikini, etc.), but of course they could not know that this would be impossible because the island and its indigenous need to stay together for the protection of the island. Ergo, I guess they were allowed to make war with an Army take-over. Also, it would not be good to allow the island to be blown to smithereens by the Army either, some of the H-bomb atoll tests left nothing but a radioactive patch where the island used to be. :o)

Perhaps the DI Truce was Jacob's way of seeing if a peaceful coexistance could happen between the islanders and the DI, as also per his coverastion with MIB. Sort of a "let's wait and see" kind of thing maybe. I agree, I would not be surprised if TPTB have a lot more planned with the inter-relationship between J & MIB than just good/bad, black/white, etc.

Capcom said...

P.S. More and more I'm liking the idea that the island is some kind of "ship/asteroid" from outer space, and that Jacob and MIB are the "aliens" that survived the trip/crash. Not that I would really want Lost to be ultimately about aliens, because I wouldn't, but it is a really neat idea. And it would be another reason why they would talk of mankind/humans in such a detached manner as they did on the beach.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I'm actually kind of cool with not really knowing 100% of the Island's origins, I'd be happy with a concrete possibility as related by Eloise or Richard. I'm avoiding any posts re: what gets answered when, but someone did post here re: Tarawet. I'm actually more interested in the things like the Egyptian culture, the fact that some of the heiroglyphs are from India circa 1500 and why the exit point is Tunisia.

Capcom, re: the military. Back when that episode aired, I was befuddled, if you recall, about why the Army was so adamant on removing the Hostiles. I get that this is the kind of thing that needed to be done (I don't believe that, but I'm cynical), but I didn't get why, well, the Hostiles did not look like an indigenous tribe. And at least a few of them were British. So what was the point of that fight, I'd think that the Army would report back, saying, hey we have some British people on this here island, guys.

Two guesses now that we've seen "The Incident." 1/Jacob saw the Army/Hostile fight in two ways, the Army (as would one day be the DI) was more advanced (in that they had Jughead), and Jacob/MIB wanted to see if their "progress" would then bring another group to the Island. Which it did, because there was that Army photo in the Lamp Post. 2/ (which I like a bit more), is that Richard wasn't telling the group in 1954 the whole truth, rather, that Smokey had gone after the Army guys. Or at the very least Smokey was aware of the Army's presence and then Richard and the Hostiles were filled in.

But if the exotic energy turns out to be an alien space engine or a multiversal portal and we don't find out, well, that's cool. Though I'll bet at least a small explanation comes from Widmore, there's going to be a Ben/Widmore scene in S6, no doubt, and Widmore might tell Ben a short version of the Island's past.

Greg Tramel said...

spoiler free blog?

Greg Tramel said...

dear wayne

"The Hurley Numbers can be translated into the calender date of March 4,1948. Nikki and Paulo have a tie to that date in the old time radio show from the same date titled, "Don't Bury Me, I'm Not Dead", with characters
Nicky and (Pau)Lou."

March 4,
1948

Greg Tramel said...

hurley=comet?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Neat stuff, Greg. Glad you're posting again. It's funny, I don't think we've ever seen the idea that the Numbers could be a date.

I'm not annoyed as spoilers as much as I am individuals who go from blog to blog repeating them. There are two people I'm aware of--one whom I worked briefly with online in 2006--who did just that and gloated over it. I'm more for speculation that spoilers, because I know where I can go for spoilers. If anything, the speculation aspect of the blog comments will continue longer than a general comment.

Any thoughts on what Capcom and I have been bouncing around re: Jacob's idea of progress?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Back in the 70s, there was a book about Sirius and connections to the Egyptians, its actually still in print. Most of the alien civilzation books mention the Pliades and Orion, I think Rigel, and the Sirius book came out right around the time Zachariah Stritchin wrote about Niburu as THE TWELFTH PLANET. On the blog link, it mentions Canis Major (Cerberus?) pulling Argo Navis (Argonauts?) through the skies. That's kind of the opposite of Apollo pulling the sun across the sky, which a lot of us thought back when we saw references to Greek mythology with the Swan and the Arrow. Maybe the sun and that talk re: dark matter inside a comet, or Niburu, gives another example of light/dark.

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, yes The Sirius Mystery is 1 of the better books out there on the subject

this guy quotes ideas from it often, he's OFTEN a little out there but i think we may be able to work 1 or 2 of his ideas into lost

Barackhenaten

Greg Tramel said...

i hope Lot has nothing to do with aliens/spaceships, that's been covered MORE than enough with xfiles

but the island being a seperate planet like a mirror moon could be interesting, i need to go back and reread the stuff about mirror matter

The Mirror Matter Theory of Lost

mirrormoon

Greg Tramel said...

oh yeah, i can't remember if had been said before that maybe jacob and MiB are the 2 in the painting

Greg Tramel said...

i've always been assuming the ancient Egyptians where actually on the island back in the day and the island is that old BUT i suppose it could be a Sirius cult that created all the hieroglyphics

but on the other hand it seems like MiB and Jacob had already been at it for awhile when we saw them right before the Black Rock ship got “magnetized” to the island

i think I’m gonna start calling Jacob/MIB Sirius A & Sirius B

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

Neat links GT. Some people had done other things with the numbers as dates, but I'd have to think for a while about where to find that. But the Nikki/Paulo thing is the best. :-) Thinbluemime hasn't been over at TLC since last season, he usually pops in to link to his theory site for various subjects. That comet thing is pretty freaky.

Richard Hoagland did a bunch of extensive reports on the Egyptians' myths of Sirius (as well as how they relate to NASA missions!) on his site a number of years ago, but it's all been redesigned and I can't find any of them on there now. link

What painting, GT?

BTW, OT, in case you all haven't seen today's photos from the ISS yet: link

Greg Tramel said...

THE painting, at the top of Big's blog

Greg Tramel said...

TX, i have not seen those volcano picks i REALLY like the part at the end about the hole in the universe

been awhile since i've looked at the richard hoagland stuff (before my lost obsession,lol), need to revist

Capcom said...

Heheh, oh, that painting, tx. :-B

Capcom said...

P.S. Haogland's still got the whackadoo-est theories of all. :-)


Yes, that "hole" is fantastic.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The painting=the mural, indeed. There is a bunch of stuff on that thing, and different ways to see something (like Walt just under the number 108), e.g., the black man looks like Yemi because of the priest collar, but then, we now know that Yemi judged Eko as Smokey. Early on, I thought the woman was Rousseau, now I don't know what to make of her/him, so Jacob is as good a thought as any. I had hopes that the mural would have been saved after the implosion, maybe a piece of it, like the tapestry. Honestly, though, if it wasn't headlining this blog, I might've forgotten about it, long before the three cabins and the Yemi/priest collar/Smokey thing.

Question. When you guys post the links, I can see them, but I can't bookmark them. Its like they take up the entire page; I'm able to cut & paste, but I'm just wondering if that is the only way to do it. I have Comcast and it pretty much sucks in a lot of ways, so I'm just wondering.

Greg, I wasn't certain the book was called THE SIRIUS MYSTERY, it sounded too easy :), but I'm amazed it stays in print. The book is not archived in some computer like a lot of Print On Demand companies. Way off-topic, pick up John Keel's THE MOTHMAN PROPHECIES. He was a great writer, but before he died he was all about crystal skulls and the like.

Let's say this "progress" thing was going on since the ancient Egyptian time frame. What do we have, confrontation-wise, before the Black Rock? I mean, as possibilities from real-life history?

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i don't think we have any CONCRETE evidence that any civilizations before Black Rock (1845) existed on the island but as always please correct me if i'm wrong

the reason i say that it is not concrete is because for all we know Jacob (or someone on or since Black Rock) created the hieroglyphs as he did the tapestry

Memphish’s timeline puts Locke turning the wheel at 100 BC? which seems a little random but since it has a question mark maybe she just picked a ancient date out of the hat, maybe Capcom can ask her how she came up with 100 BC

anyway, up until now i’ve 100% assumed the island has had civilizations at least back to 3000 BC but now i’m not sure if we really have anything to prove it

Greg Tramel said...

i like John Keel's ideas about moving away from the UFO/Ancient Astronauts stuff towards more supernatural explanations

i hope this is the way Lost is concluded instead of the Island being some kind of spaceship and/or inhabited by little green men

i’m familiar with Keel’s Mothman book but have never read it, YET

not that there is anything wrong with ancient astronaut theories, they can be very very interesting, i jut want Lost to be more about metaphysical mythologies

synchrobrarian said...

i think we need to work on deconstructing the tapestry as we are still doing with the mural

anybody see a better picture than this without the spindle in the way?

click on picture to make it larger

Fishbiscuitland, 1 of my favorite Lost writers (of course in addition to Big’s Sickos here) comments that the 9 figures at the top represent the 9 characters Jacob touched

Also somebody mentioned it shows a history of the island (I’ll look for the link) which may help us with the timeline


APPROACHING OMEGA

synchrobrarian said...

“I think there might be two boats on the bottom of the tapestry. One looks like a sailboat, like Des' boat, is closer to where the cut out part is ,that featured the statue. And this would be reminiscent of when Sayid, Jin and Sun found the statue from the sailboat in Season Two.

The other boat looks more like the raft that Michael and Jin built in Season One. It has a similar sail and even has a figure, at the base of the sail. This recalling the iconic scene of the raft being launched in " Exodus" Part One, with Sawyer raising the rectangular, makeshift sail.”

these quoted comments are from Ms Wendy that does 1 of my favorite titles for a blog

It’s About Bunnies

Capcom said...

Copy that GT, I'll ask Memphish about the 100BC date.

I agree that we should do some concentrating on the tapestry for our summer hiatus assignment. :-) We should also work on what significance that torn off piece might have, it must mean something. For instance, why was it in the cabin? Did whatever the design on the remnant say, allow MIB or Jacob to cross the ash and enter the cabin? Ilana, or someone, took the remnant before they burned down the cabin. Was the intention to return it to the main piece? Would it have been bad if it was burned up in the fire?

Wow, if the tapestry is the island's history, and it's completed, that could say a lot. Is this then "curtains for our Dynamic Duo" and their island? ;-) A good way for TPTB to be done once and for all with the show, wiping out all chance for sequels, would be to destroy the island or send it back from whence it came. But I really like the idea of Jacob keeping track of what's been going on by weaving it into a picture.

I like Ms.Wendy's blog too, that's also what my brother-in-law says about Lost after the first ComicCon vid came out, and he doesn't watch Lost much accept for catching up on mhy DVDs with his sons during the hiatuses ("The bunny is the key to the whole thing!"). X-D

Thanks for the Fish link, I stopped reading her last hiatus because she was just getting way too nasty with those whom she believes to be her enemies (i.e., Fuselage peeps, DarkUFO peeps...) It just gets too unpleasant for my taste, fighting is boring. Aside from that, I really like her thoughts.

For some reason (maybe just the color) the tapestry reminds me of the puzzle on the back of the Return To The Planet Of The Apes cards: link

Greg Tramel said...

"curtains for our dynamic duo", LOL

Greg Tramel said...

i thought this was an interesting little tidbit

"In one of the scenes with Juliet there is a book on the coffee table. It is entitled “Mystery of Ancient America”. Ancient? ..... this book has a chapter on the Michigan Tablets.....it turns out there is a story in these tablets about two brothers, one evil and the other good. It designates positive and negative events from the Bible and shows how to distinguish between the two polar motives."

from:
Lost Tidbits

Capcom said...

Wow great link, we have to look in to that further as well!

Greg Tramel said...

actually i did not even know Fish was a she, i just like her writing style and insights with all the pictures

i don't really know anything about the message boards and internal politics

my favorite rewatcher's writing style i enjoy (as of today) is also a she, i think

tubular

Capcom said...

I'm pretty sure Fish is a female, from what's been said in the past. And I don't think that a guy could get as catty as (s)he's gotten about the Fuselage peeps and Dark, unless it was Perez Hilton. :o) If you aren't aware of the infighting, perhaps it's calmed down over this past year, and maybe I'll go back to reading that blog again.

Heheh, that first paragraph of The Moth is really funny on the Tubular link. Thanks for passing that one on, it is well written.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg and Capcom, still asking on how I can save these links you put here w/o having to have to write them out and type them in. Any thoughts? No big deal, just wondering.

True, the tapestry is a clue. I've been too busy with a few other projects to think back on it, and of course, I really should be looking at a few other blogs. Maybe.

Greg, MOTHMAN isn't about the UFO stuff. Its a cool book because, like Gray Barker, Keel could poke fun at himself as an investigator.

I don't believe there is any concrete evidence about anything before the Black Rock, other than MIB and Jacob referring to (my words) they come, they fight, progress. So someone must have been around at least one time before that, right? Maybe? A few things I noticed re: the symmetry, the weaving of the tapestry mirrored Desmond on the excercise bike in S2. The door to the Statue reflected the Hatch. The tapestry and the mural. Probably other things, too. If someone goes over the tapestry, I'd like to see if the glyphs fold back on themselves, a la S1-3 and S4-6.

In closing, I got my first, then second, email which claims to have two photos from the Air France crash and of course they show Oceanic 815 breaking up from inside the cabin. There are several detailed paragraphs below the photos and I'm guessing they are from an obit for a French guy who died in the crash.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, do you mean you can't click on the links and then bookmark them?

yes, i know about the Mothman, i just meant Keel is known for his body of ufo research and like you said also known for his self decrepitating attitude

even without concrete evidence i’m sticking with the island has been around for at least 5000 years AND Jacob and MiB have been around as well for the entire time

i suppose it is another 1 of my leaps of faith but that being said i don’t think much Jacob’s progress has really been significantly made and i tend to agree with MiB for now, hopefully season 6 will prove us wrong and show mucho progress

Capcom said...

Very interesting Wayne! BTW, do you mean the connection of the spinning wheel and the bike?

I really don't know why you can't just bookmark the links right from where they are, I've never come across that situation before, sorry. If nothing else, just open another tab or window, and then copy and paste the link from one window to the other and then try bookmarking it, and at least then you won't have to type the whole thing out, yow. I hope that I'm understanding the problem correctly, and that makes any sense.

FWIW, I just finished patching together the pieces that we have so far of the tapestry. It's not very good, and it's not very big, but perhaps I can get around to doing a better one later with larger screencaps. Hopefully someone else will turn up a screencap of the entire tapestry. Or, it will be in the next overpriced Lost magazine in the props section. link

synchrobrarian said...

Wayne, you mentioning Egyptians, Sirius, Pleides and Orion, reminded me of this

pyramid map matches star map

synchrobrarian said...

let's call the big island Sirius A and the little island Sirius B

Age of Horus

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg and Capcom, its the way Comcast gives me the info, I guess. For example, if Big puts a link in the blog entry, I can bookmark it. If its in the comments, the page opens up COMPLETELY to the link, there is no way to open another browser window to cut & paste, because I cannot shrink or save the main link. So if I go to Cut, I lose it as soon as I try the new browser window. You know the back/fwd arrows on the screens? I don't even see them, literally the link covers my entire screen. I shouldn't really blame Comcast, I think that IE is the catalyst.
But, thx, and I just babbled on here so you know the problem better.

Now to go look at that star map...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oh, and yea, Capcom, I meant the spinning wheel and the bicycle wheel. What goes up, must come down, spinning wheel, got to go 'round. Maybe Geronimo Jackson did a cover of the song...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The star map shows Aldeberan, which I've mentioned here. That star is in, I believe, Leo, not part of Orion, but in the works of H.P. Lovecraft, his Cthulhu mythos centers on the Old Ones coming from Aldeberan and Cthulhu lives on a sunken island called R'yleh. The general topic might have involved one of the books seen on the show, and I mentioned it being curious to have not seen a Lovecraft book.

The only other kinda sorta extraterrestrial jab was when Juliet and Sawyer found Ethan's secret stash of guns; the tree was marked with a brand (similar to the one given to her by the Others) that resembled the symbol for UMMO. You can find out about UMMO on Wiki, its somewhat of a hoax or prank, but still an interesting read. Of course, the idea of it being a hoax was the reason the producers put the symbol in the show to begin with...

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, also, i think juliet made a crack when sawyer and kate were working on the runway that it was for the ufo landing

ummo here

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, try a right clik on a link and then choose open in a new window

Capcom said...

Right about right-clicking GT, or even just selecting to open a new tab, that way he would still remain in the same window and not get a bigger sized one, just a new tab for the one already open. Am I correct in understanding Wayne, that you're trying to bookmark the link in your initial click on the hyperlink and not opening it first?

Re: Orion/Giza, EXACTLY! That's what Hoagland gets into also, wish that I could find that old report of his. And dang, if only we had a third island.

I didn't realize that the Pleiades were in line with the belt and Sirius. :-o Excellent Flikr site, BTW!

I've always wondered about what Juliet said about the alien runway (i.e. if we should give it any thought). But I figured that it was just TPTB teasing us. Altho the thought of TPTB throwing the B612 info at us is really nagging me lately. That is, it's either one of their favorite books or they were putting the equivalent of a politcal "thought balloon" hint out there for us to cogitate and consider. "I want to believe" now, heheh.

Capcom said...

P.S. I could also get into the thought that if the island is a fallen asteroid, etc., its magnetic properties could be such that the isalnd is slightly repelled by the earth's magnetism which makes it jump around so much. You know, from natural vortex to vortex on the earth, never really finding a place where it can settle magnetically. Just a thought. And not a very good one really, I admit. :-)

BTW, I am really enjoying the continuation of ideas exchange here with you all! And the links.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Same here, Capcom. I'll try the right click, Greg, guess being lefty I never ever think about right click. But yes, say I want to bookmark, I need to actually write the url from the blue Windows box that runs across the link, which is what I did with Fishbiscuitland. Yeah, Greg, Juliet did make the joke about the alien runway, I just kept making typos and quit that part, ha ha. But, yeah, it was an in-joke, particularly once we saw the UMMO branding.

And, yes, the back and forth comments are refreshing. Oh, and actually I am not bookmarking the links all the time, just ones I want to look at later. If you move past the Pliades, I think the Hyades are fairly close. Check out yesterday and today's Astronomy Picture of The Day. Neat stuff.

Capcom said...

I think actually that Juliet made that comment about the alien runway when she and Sawyer were going to the beach to help save Jin and Bernie post-ambush, after Jack's call with the Others at the radio tower -- not when they were on the Hydra. I'll check on that one. But it's only important if we're speculating things in order for a particular reason, otherwise it's not. :o)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

No, Capcom, it was when they were going just where you said. Ethan had a stash of guns next to that tree. Ethan and his guns, like Ben with his mirror and 12 yr old crackers. Makes you wonder where all the other secret stashes are on the Island. I only brought it up in the first place to throw out UMMO, my favorite UFO fringe group.

No other speculations right now. I actually signed on to practice the right click but forgot. Heat has my brain fried.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Is Hoagland the guy who talks about the face on Mars?

Capcom said...

There's a whole new clickable world with the right-click (either on the page itself or on a link), Wayne! :-D

Capcom said...

Yep, that's the one! Our posts passed in the ether together, heheh.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

For the sake of making an argument, are the four extras supposed to be Jin and Nadia and Tom to make up the 9 on the tapestry being the 9 Jacob touched? Is the last one meant to be Christian? That would be 5+4, as Sawyer and Hurley were alone. Is that what the implication is? In S6, will wee see Jacob in flashback again, touching Charlie, Claire (and by extension Aaron), and...??? If we've yet to see the other four--let's say Jin was one of them, what the hell--who are other candidates for the last? Thoughts?

By the way, Greg, the right click works fine. I'll bet my ten year old niece knows about this...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Still happening, the post thing, ha ha. I though Hoagland was the same guy, I think he calls the face Cydonia, right?

Capcom said...

If Jacob visits Claire, I bet he touches her stomach with Aaron in there. I'll bet ya five bucks. And I'll really mail it to ya, if I lose. :o)

Right, that's what Hoagland calls The Face and its surrounding structures.

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, i'm a lefty as well, i was able to duplicate the issue you were having, if you receive an email each time somebody responds to a post click on the post a comment link in your email and see if that opens up a window with the address bar showing

Greg Tramel said...

the star map may have come from the Hoagland website or from David Flynn whom i actually prefer a little more than Richard, his overt Christian angle turns alot of people off but enjoy info from all angles form Crowley to Texe Marrs and everyone in between

The Watcher

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i never could figure out where Fish counted 9 getting touched by Jacob, just thought it was an unique idea albeit not likely IMHO, but hey anything is possible

i could swear Juliet made the ufo crack when Sawyer and Kate where on the “chain gang” moving rocks on hydra island, if somebody remembers the name of that episode i will look at the transcript

reminds of one scene around the same time that i can’t seem to shake is when Ben had brunch or whatever under the awning near the beach with Kate and then when Kate got to her cage she had the strangest look on her face, I REALLY want to know what was said/happened at that brunch

Greg Tramel said...

LOL, i just noticed there is a picture of "Locke" on the David Flynn website from his Millenium tv show days

Capcom said...

Thanks for the link, I don't recall ever hearing about Flynn. He might have even been an Art Bell guest, but I didn't remember him.

I'd forgotten that T.O'Q. used to always have a mustache. He's another alumni from JAG. :-)

Here's the x-script from Through The Looking Glass:

********

[Out in the jungle, Juliet and Sawyer head for the beach]

SAWYER: So, when you pulled us out of those polar bear cages and put us on the chain gang, what the hell you have us breaking all those rocks for anyway?

JULIET: We were building a runway.

SAWYER: Runway, for what?

JULIET: [Turns to him] The aliens.

[She smirks]

JULIET: I don't know what for, do you think they told me everything?

********

I couldn't find the part in S3 where they talked about the runway on the Hydra, but I thought that someone mentioned a runway there too. I quickly checked a few eps in the beginning of S3, but my computer is hanging up and I wasn't even able to find where Ben took Kate to breakfast on the beach. Stupid old computer. :-p

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, Greg, I've been able to save every link since you explained. The difference between you and me is that I am lefty AND stupid. Well, yeah. Kate did seem disturbed after breakfast with Ben, could be, from what we know now, Ben (via Jacob) might have mentioned Kate's lunchbox and plane, or... the real reason she and Sawyer were brought to Hydra.

Maybe Juliet did say something on Hydra about the runway, to counter the serious talk by Pickett, I can't recall. It would make sense.

Well, again, Fish came up with 9 because we do see a possible 9 in the final episode. (I haven't read that blog yet, I'll do that around 3 AM.) Sawyer and Hurley were touched alone because they didn't need prodding, though I'll get back to H. in a sec. Say, for the sake of argument, that Jacob "touched" both parties in all other cases. Why? Each was a catalyst, Sayid wanted vengeance for Nadia's death, hanging out with Tom maybe kept whatever label you want to give Kate thing going. Jin/Sun is obvious, they fell in love all over again on the Island but were separated. I'm backpedaling on it being Jack and Christian, though. He only saw Sayid and Hurley prior to Ajira 316 and he needed them on the plane. He got Sayid because his being Ben's hitman got him arrested and put on that flight. Maybe #9 is Charlie via the guitar case? That's out there, but all I can think of besides that is Jack and Christian.

I was so used to seeing Terry O'Quinn with a moustache. I forgot that he was the bad guy in THE STEPFATHER, back when we were all 20 years younger. *sigh*

And, yeah, Capcom, if it was Claire's stomach getting touched, maybe this is what ensured the before-birth Aaron to survive the crash.

More speculation, now. Was it ever stated that Desmond painted that mural? If I assumed it was, it's based on the open paint tubes, I guess. Never gave it much thought. The Blast Door Map was intentionally invisible, yet gives clues to the Island's structures, etc. As does the mural, only it's painted as if Picasso had just read the complete works of PK Dick i.e., crazy Des stuck pushing the button. But all that info is right there in the open.

Wait. That wasn't my speculation part. This is. What makes Desmond special? The wild card? Is his father Jacob or MIB (I just had a goofy flash of that Paul Reiser sitcom My Two Dads)?

Lastly, and for real. I mentioned before, there must have been other Island arrivals, other conflicts to ensure progress. I haven't put much thought in it myself, but what do you guys think re: examples? Let's think recent history, not Egyptian or Dinosaur Island. Vikings? Conquistadors?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Well, we crossed again, Capcom. A runway was mentioned, someone was telling Sawyer or Kate, or Kate was telling Sawyer, and Pickett interrupted. It might have even been a question, like, "What are they building here, a runway or something?"

By the way, I guess Jacob was the one who told them they had to build a runway on Hydra, right?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Dammit, I lost my post again. I'll try later. I had a thought after I read a bit over at Fishbiscuitland.

But I forgot Locke as part of the 9, so my ramblings are moot. I should have made a list.

Greg Tramel said...

ok, sorry, i was wrong about when they talked about the ufo runway but at least i did remember sawyer calling it a chain gang

with Locke it is still only 8 touched by Jacob that we saw, right?

Wayne, so are you saying Christian, Claire (Aaron), or Charlie (or his guitar) is number 9? I think he did touch Ilana BUT somebody mentioned he had gloves on or something like that (if i remember correctly, LOL)

but anyway like i said before, i kinda doubt the tapestry human figures represent any of the specific characters BUT the ships seem pretty meaningful, i’m really not sure how to interpret the rest but i’m thinking is was ancient Egyptian history on the island long before the Black Rock even though i realize we can’t prove ancient Egyptians where actually on the island

i wonder what year it was when we saw Jacob just beginning the tapestry

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

What I was going to say before, it was mentioned and commented on at FBL but not here, is the crazy reasoning for Jack & Juliet to want to detonate the Jughead trigger. Well, certainly for Juliet; Jack and Kate come from the same box of crackers.

I never questioned it because we've seen romantic triangles since S1, and a lot of that was because of demographics. And while it may have seemed rush, there was a lot to cover in the episode. I accept the constraints of a TV show.

Yet, Jacob is all about love, right? But he is also full of deception. He touched Kate and Sawyer as kids so that they'd be who they are as adults, and, sadly, they'll likely be together because they are so much alike, or at least, they were.

Here's a thought. There might be another reason Jacob never touched Juliet. If that scene with Jack and the Apollo candy bar happened after September of 2001, well, Juliet was already on the Island. And I'm starting to think that Jack was touched very close to 815's flight, like around the time Ben developed his tumor. Jacob needed him to be a part of the loophole, because I tend to agree with Big that Jacob and MIB need to exist together, and quite possibly, dead Jacob will rise from the ashes as newborn Locke. Maybe he had Richard recruit Juliet in a second hand manner because he knew she had to be there as a prompt for more than a few of Jack's actions.

And, when Widmore is banished, it seems that the last straw for Jacob was Widmore having had a child with a woman off-Island, as opposed to his gathering wealth. As Jacob and MIB discussed, it is all about greed, but then there is progress. But love can be a greed, as well. When you get down to it, love will make almost anyone do something dumb. The example was right there in "The Incident."

Presumably, there was a long period of time where the only ones being drawn to the Island were men on sailing vessels. Could there have been female Hostiles back then, used as breeders, as awkward and hateful as that sounds? It would certainly cause conflict, yet allow Jacob control over the babies and ensure future generations of Hostiles.

Did Jacob cause the science team to crash because he knew Alex would eventually end up with Ben? Which brings me back to the first list we knew of. Why Kate and Sawyer? To try and get another kid going between Aaron and Ji-Yeon? Is this a possible answer for why Jacob wanted all the children, yet sent Walt away?

Anyways. All that came from Jack telling Sawyer "I lost her." Thoughts?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I guess I did count Locke, just not on my fingers, ha ha. So, yeah, who is the ninth person he touched? You have a point that the clue to follow is the ship, the not people, but then again so much ends up being at least a partial reveal.

It just seems like a pretty huge leap between Egyptian times and, what, 1840? Plus, it seems as if MIB was implying that there had been other battles, though possibly he was talking about the World. He can likely leave as Jacob did, maybe he saw the wars each generation has. Richard told Ben about having patience, I suppose waiting for the Black Rock constitutes patience. I'd be curious, then, to ask why that particular ship? To get Richard, as the main assumption is that he was first mate?

Is it about transportation, a ship, then a sub, then a plane? I'm asking more questions than I have any concrete answers to.

Greg Tramel said...

here is 1 symbol for RA which matches the top, somebody said TPTB said Rchard IS RA

RA

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Back to my comment on Kate and Sawyer in the cages. To make it clearer. Jacob/the Others end up not getting baby Aaron. Then they send Walt away. It's doubtful, to be truthful, that the one, actual, intent was to have Kate get pregnant, but for sake of argument, let's go with that. When that didn't work out, Jacob used his magic on Jin so that Ji-Yeon would be born.

Greg Tramel said...

i was thinking when Jacob touched Jack it was years before Sept 2001 but i could be wrong, let me research a bit

yeah, i agree it is quite a jump from ancient Egypt to 1845, have to ponder that 1

Greg Tramel said...

Freemason's ofton use the this symbol on their buildings

Winged Disc of RA

Greg Tramel said...

since Juliet was already on the island it could very well be that Jacob brought Jack to island to possibly conceive with Juliet (many are convinced Juliet is pregnant via Sawyer but for all we know she hooked up with Jack when he arrived in 1977) and Sawyer & Kate were brought to the island to possibly conceive and Jin & Sun were brought to the island to possibly conceive

Jacob may not be able to ensure a pregnancy with any of them but he was bringing soulmates together to increase the odds of a pregnancy among them

because an on island inception but off island birth was be needed to take Jacob’s place and an off island conception but on island birth was need to take MIB's place or visa versa kinda like Big proposed

Greg Tramel said...

more on the winged sun disc

“Horus, the Virgin-Born redeemer of the Egyptians, came intro the world to destroy the enemies of the great God, Ra. Therefore Horus changed himself into the form of the winged sun-disk, and took with him the Goddesses Nekhebet and Uatchit in the form of two serpents. After their successful war upon the enemies of Ra, Horus commanded Thoth, the God of Secret Wisdom, that the winged sun-disk with the erect serpents should be brought into every sanctuary of all the gods of the lands of the South and North.”

corporate logos

Greg Tramel said...

i suppose it could be Jacob and MiB sitting in the thrones with the 9 Lost characters in the middle being compelled to end up on the island via the demands of RA/Horus working through Jacob and MiB, maybe MiB "brought" the 9th person

now to the next section which is MUCH harder for me at least

Greg Tramel said...

Lostpedia says "three heavily crewed Ancient Egyptian sailboats DEBARKING from the Island" which may answer Wayne’s question of why it appears to jump from Ancient Egypt to Black Rock

tapestry

also it is interesting it has a combination Egyptian hieroglyphs and Greek writings which are translated in the above Lostpedia article

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, don't forget some of the heiroglyphics are from India, from the 1500s. Maybe there were different cultures brought to the Island. I'm agreeing with you and Big (to a point) about Ji-Yeon and Aaron. I was more giving a reason for Kate/Sawyer, Jack/Juliet.

Re: Jack/Jacob/Apollo--we know it wasn't that long that Jack was a doc. That is, he ratted out his dad, who drank himself to death, and that part couldn't have taken years and years. It kinda fits the 2001-2004 scenario, but I'm just saying that if Ben was part of the MIB's manipulations, at the point of his getting a tumor, well, Ben said it himself, "a spinal surgeon fell out of the sky." Ben even said something like "I wanted you to WANT to operate on me." Jacob's free will.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: the glyphs from India, the Dravidian period. I'm getting that from Lostpedia, but they do seem to keep things straight over there.

Greg Tramel said...

some on the tapestry are from India, the Dravidian period, 1500s?

Capcom said...

Wouldn't ya know, I go to church, a garden show, and a museum, and you guys have a big discussion here wiffout me! :o)

BTW, in the museum's Egyptian exhibit I turned the corner and there was a three foot statue of Taweret staring at me! X-D

Wayne, I can't remember if it is just assumed that Des painted it or not, because somewhere along the way I think that it is mentioned that Des was a backdrop or scenery painter or something like that. Perhaps when he sees Widmore and Wid is prattling off Des' pathetic vocational history. I'll try to check on that. But it's either said or assumed that Des painted it. In which case, I have not answered your question at all. Heh.

Very interesting links, especially the corporate logos. I also like what you both are saying about the pregnancies.

Greg Tramel said...

WOW!! Capcom, that's kismet you saw Taweret today

did it look anything like our Taweret (which many think looks much more like Sobek)

Greg Tramel said...

Lostpedia dose say the mural was painted by Des so we'll go with that but it does make me wonder if he then knew abuut Jacob's cabin or at least wonder what his inpiration was for many of the images

Capcom said...

Lostpedia mural page says this: "Painted in an expressionist style by Desmond, (Secrets From the Hatch) it was a mélange of images and writing, many of which may be open to interpretation."


Secrets from the Hatch page says this: "Jim Spencer: Which leads us to Desmond’s beautiful mural. And it shows a lot of pain, a lot of angst. He lives on the shore, so he’s got fish. The mural on the wall was done by Jack Bender, instigated by me, because I thought, here’s somebody who (Desmond, that we know now), but what does that one single person do down here if he’s given to painting? We talked about muralizing the whole place. And then it sort of came to be that, that may be a bit extravagant. So, I asked Jack, who’s a prolific modern artist to have his hand at it.

Jack Bender: So, one afternoon, I went in there. And knowing some of the story elements of where the season was going, I painted. I’ve been painting since I was 14. So, I painted this painting in about 4 hours. And it’s great, because it all has to do with the mythology according to all our internet fans. It all has to do with the Lost City of Atlantis, and the purple circle that’s surrounding the number 108, that’s next to the words “I M Sick”, which is an eyeball, and an M, and the word Sick, but it’s crossed out. So, it’s wonderful to see what people have done with that whole world down there."

Capcom said...

Oops, posts passing like ships in the night again. :o)

Yes, "my" Taweret looked exactly like the one that we've been studying all this season! I just about choked when I ran into it. Big belly, big nose, two ankhs and all!

Greg Tramel said...

seeing Taweret is COOL!!

so i guess we can’t read too much into wondering why Des painted what he did on he mural since it was actaully inspired by Lost theorists (which is an interesting idea in itself)

i'll just go with Des had visions/dreams induced by the island and that’s why he painted what he did

Greg Tramel said...

so i'm back to Jacob’s tapestry

i wonder if Jacob started it right after 315 landed on the island

he saw the writing on the wall about MiB’s loophole and knew Ben would soon be stabbing him so he created the tapestry to leave behind as a symbol that progress can be achieved using the Ancient Egyptian island history as an example

Greg Tramel said...

oh and i guess we also have to include Ancient Greek history on the island as well

maybe it was he time of the greatest progress on the island and why only included BC island history on the tapestry

something happened AD which thwarted true progress

Capcom said...

Yes, I've always wondered how far into the later part of TPTB's story that mural went. I guess not very far. But perhaps TPTB gave him a few elements to work on, seeing as they keep saying that they have pretty much known how it ends for a while. I've always wondered about that big rectangle in the upper left corner with the people in it, and TPTB mentioning last summer that Ayers Rock might be in the show. It sort of looks like it could be Ayers.

GT, were you the one who said that you read that the tapestry is a history of the island? I wonder if it's in order, top to bottom, vice versa, or all mixed up? If the top is supposed to represent Jacob touching people, that happens later in the island's history, but it's on the top. The part on the bottom with the whole statue and primative (looking) vessels would seem to be earlier in time.

BTW, Memphish probably hasn't read my question about the 100BC thing on her blog yet.

Greg Tramel said...

and i don't mean in any way Christianity and/or Islam per say but rather the abuse of Christianity and Islam by the emperors using it to conquer and control people which can be counter to Jesus’ and Muhammad’s teachings

the Egyptians freed themselves from RA’s hold yet to turn around and be enslaved again

Capcom said...

Oh yeah, and I could definitely buy that Des had visions of the future/past and painted them, if that's what TPTB want us to believe.

Capcom said...

"Could it be......Satan???!!!" J/K, it's Sunday so I'm the church-lady. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

yep, we can blame it on Satan

i'm going back when some of us thought Jacob was Jacob Bohme who "preached that humanity had fallen from a state of divine grace to a state of sin and suffering, that the forces of evil included fallen angels who had rebelled against God, and that God's goal was to restore the world to a state of grace."

which may work with tapestry and Jacob's progress

Greg Tramel said...

and then going with what thwarted progress was the Roman Empire's suppression of the more Gnostic Christian ideas (which some would label Jacob Bohme’s ideas as)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, gang. If it was Desmond, I'm going with him having dream images. My real point though was that it is out in the open as opposed to the Blast Door Map being hidden. Just riffing on if there's any meaning there, i.e., what is out in the open, obviously the 316 arrow, the three cabins, Ayers rock maybe, etc. What are we missing.

Greg, the glyphs in Ben's house were Dravidian, again, as per Lostpedia. I suck at glyphs, unless its Egyptian, so I can't tell you why they might be Hindi.

Cool that you saw Tarawet, Capcom. I'm curious about the statue looking a bit like both T. and Sobek. Since every religious reference on LOST makes it a mixture of beliefs, I wonder if the statue might be a combination of gods?

Funny how people are now talking that Juliet was pregnant. It would explain Sawyer not wanting to leave but it further muddles Juliet's reasoning for agreeing with Jack. I suspicion this will be answered early on next season.

By the way, S5 folding back on S2, the spinning wheel being Desmond's exercise bicycle? The eye at the end of S5 reflects Desmond's eye at the opening of S2. Plus, I might have mentioned this before, the mural/tapestry thing. Both are expressionistic, if you think about it.

The baby thing might be something I'll be adressing in that ---- with ----.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

We should really just be on the phone with each other seeing as how we all post simultaneously, ha ha.

Capcom said...

Oh my, that's interesting! I guess that I had forgotten about Bohme, thanks for the reminder.

Hey, I'm just loving that Vigilant Citizen site.

Capcom said...

Heheh, you're right Wayne! X-D Conference call!

Greg Tramel said...

ah, ok the glyphs from India were in Ben’s house and not necessarily on the tapestry

IF Juliet is/was pregnant, i’m not sure Sawyer knew

Greg Tramel said...

i just stuumbled on the Vigilant Citizen site a few hours ago by doing an image search on winged disc of ra or something like that, never seen it before

can’t remember how I stumbled back to Bohme

Greg Tramel said...

"The baby thing might be something I'll be adressing in that ---- with ----."

huh? i guess you mean that person you two complain about on the message bords or something

Greg Tramel said...

ah! this Lostpedia quote is what led me to back to Bohme

"in the Temple, Ben found numerous surfaces covered in symbols comprising hieroglyphs and possibly some alchemic symbols"

whch lead me back to alchemy which lead me back to Bohme

Capcom said...

"which lead me back to alchemy which lead me back to Bohme"...reminds me of the "Connections" TV series by James Burke.

:-)

Greg Tramel said...

yes, i was the one that read the tapestry was a representation the island’s history but i've pretty much abandoned that idea thinking it is a much more specific timeframe and only the island’s ancient Egyptian history

but to add to that i’m thinking maybe it is the history of life on Sirius and the ships leaving were symbolic of traveler’s from Sirius coming to populate the earth

and the islands ARE Sirius A & B but it crashed on the earth right before Ancient Greek times

ok maybe I’m getting carried away but I’m having FUN

Greg Tramel said...

never seen Connections but i'll look for it since it is directed by Mick(chael Jackson), LOL

Connections

Capcom said...

Connections is one of the most awesome PBS series ever. I supposed it would be a bit dated now (especially if they talk about computers, but they would be DHARMA age computers, haha), but as far as the historical things it would still be accurate for the most part. They still sell the DVDs in those Discovery Channel, Nat'l Geo, or BBC mail catalogues, I've seen the set and often thought about buying it. On Wiki it looks as though it's been updated in the 1990s too!

link

Greg Tramel said...

i know i've seen it at a library but it may have been discarded due to being dated (maybe by me, lol)

on another topic, this is 1 of my faovitte Black Rock theories

"The boat was transporting a large assortment of metallic minerals, which were highly reactive to other forces of magnetism. Unexpectedly, the boat encounters the island of LOST. Being that the island has unique magnetic properties, the magnetic materials on the boat “react” with the magnetic forces on the island, and the boat is literally hoisted onto the island. The boat, having strong levels of magnetism, creates a hole in the invisible bubble that surrounds the island – this hole is at coordinate “305”, or the “special location/coordinate” that Daniel’s team travels through to get to the island. Once the Black Rock crashes, the occupants go fourth and populate the island. Richard is one of their descendants."

more here including a 3 part youtube video

TimeLoopTheory.com

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I'm actually just being vague in general, because I thought you picked up on it awhile ago. Big mentioned a possible *cough* book *cough and I've been talking with my agent, I think he said that awhile ago after someone mentioned why he took some old posts off a message board. He explained why and I thought you caught it. At this point, it seems to be just us three, and Big did mention it first, so...but I was doing that because, after all, this is his blog. Check out my last post on my blog, link to my name, will tell you a bit more.

This individual Capcom came to know long after I did, because I actually wrote some fiction with the guy back in 2005, had (has?) a site, well, I won't say more. I think he has a new site now, just to hide his identity, which I do know because of the fiction writing. My involvement with him stopped abruptly and with no harm done, other than him pissing off me and four other writers. If you Googled me and added the word Lost to my name, you might very well find the writing project I am referring to, and therefore, who the culprit is. But the dude ended up conning a few people out of some dough with empty promises, unrelated to my involvement of him. And that sucks.

True, Greg, Juliet might not have told Sawyer. Be kinda freaky if in S6, Juliet is still around, she has the kid in 1977 and names him Desmond. It would work if Desmond could be considered 31 when Charlie was born, 24 when racing the boat, being in the military in his late teens. But c'mon. Like you said above, at least we are having fun with this.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

My point being that Desmond and Juliet never met, the closest might have been right before he and Faraday had words during the time flashes. And Re: his last name being Hume...seems like half the cast have different last names, "Raised By Another," all that. One S6 reveal I'm hoping for is that we find out exactly WHAT makes Desmond special. Is he maybe meant to be the opposite of Walt?

Greg Tramel said...

whoa! a Juliet>Desmond>Charlie bloodline would be wild

Greg Tramel said...

i may have made the "connections" before but i tend to quickly forget many things

but i think i read THAT book, guess i need to go back and read your article in the book

hope the new Lost book comes to complete fruition, i'll read it

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx, Greg. Its a tough market out there. Publishers aren't buying anything unless it has just the right hook. Publish or perish, sink or swim. It can be nuts.

Anonymous said...

I really think you figured out the first two Black Swan events you mentioned! Very smart!

Anonymous said...

That was an amazing read.


-lantzdogg

Thirty-Fiver said...

Hey folks, some great discussions going on as usual. :)

I wanted to touch on the history of Smokey that I saw was briefly talked about a few posts up.

On other forums I've heard many people notice that Smokey has never been seen or heard of before 1988 (when Rousseau's science team encountered it). Or more importantly, before the Incident. The sounds of metal screeching and banging about during the Incident that admittedly resemble Smokey have caused some to speculate that the Incident may be what caused/created the Smoke Monster in the first place. I do not subscribe to this theory. While the imagery in Smokey's lair beneath the Temple implies it has an ancient history with the Island, I'd like to point out another piece of 'evidence' that may prove Smokey's existence pre-Incident.

Young Locke's drawing of a stick figure man with swirling smoke hovering over him was seen by Richard in 1961. I know that it is possible that young Locke may have had some kind of connection with his older self because of his experience with time traveling and the Swan implosion, but I think Richard's recognition of a black swirl of smoke is more telling than that of young Locke actually drawing the picture.

Why would this picture be so intriguing to Richard if Smokey had not yet existed?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Agreed, Thirty-Fiver. I like that some other groups have tried to use the sounds of the Swan's equipment crumpling to that of the roller coaster sounds from S1, but, yea, Smokey has been around, whether he is MIB, Jacob, or both. Yet, on the Blast Door Map, there are references to Cerberus Vents. Maybe one thing that did occur during the Incident was the creation of these various vents, a way for the Smoke Monster to not be confined to the basement of the Temple. Stay on board and join us through the summer here, won't you? Share your ideas.

You too, Lantzdogg.

Capcom said...

If Smokey was not free before 1977, perhaps the Incident cracked something open that let Smokey loose?

Greg Tramel said...

the grates underneath the temple and the hieroglyphs seem to indicate Smokey's been around for awhile, these days i'm going with at least 5000 years

BUT Smokey could have been confined to the Temple area before the Incident

Greg Tramel said...

speaking of, we still have not seen the Temple proper yet have we?

Bigmouth said...

I think Smokey had to be a presence on the Island prior to DHARMA's arrival. Otherwise, why would they build the sonic fence, which seems specifically designed to stop the Monster? But I agree it's interesting we never actually saw Smokey during DHARMA times. My own pet theory, which I'll explore in another post, is that the Man in Black used Smokey to copy or possess Radzinsky.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i was just thinking the same thing about the sonic fence but i suppose it could have been built to try to keep out the Hostiles and they discovered later it also kept Smokey at bay

but about Smokey, what has me stumped is why Smokey and/or MiB seemed to have just copied Locke but seems to have reanimated Christian's and Claire's bodies

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

There are ways to look at the appearances of Smokey, particularly when you place it in the Temple or on the Island. Greg, we've seen the wall and the tunnels, but not even a ground level view of the Temple. And I don't know where the Ruins figure into it all.

With all the time flashes, one thing that did slip by was that Smokey was still hanging around the Temple in 1988, but was that little hole in the ground there before 1977's Incident? Which always brings me back to the way Robert & Danielle called it the Temple's security system. They were the only two (that we know of) that have used that phrase. So, that's what I was following up Thirty-Fiver's comment with, that Smokey was confined to the basin or could be called out for judgment, and the vents from the Blast Door Map are not man made, they were caused by the Incident. If Smokey can be stopped by the sonic fence or the TNT (assumedly it was the vibrations), maybe the Incident caused vents to open up that were past the reach of the Temple's sonic powers, or whatever kept Smokey close by. I think this is how we can accomodate Smokey during the Dharma era, that he was around, maybe Richard told Horace about him and what was needed (good vibrations-wise) to keep Smokey out. At the very least, after the Incident, Smokey just gained quicker access to various parts of the Island than through the conduits. All it really comes down to is that whatever happened after Jughead detonated, it afftected the conduits and tunnels. Hell, maybe the Ruins weren't the Ruins at all before 1977.

Big, so this would mean Radzinsky was dead, that kind of "being controlled by MIB" thing? It would play into Radzinsky having the photographic memory, the way Inman told Desmond. Are you then suggesting Radzinsky shotgunned himself so that MIB was free to find another host body?

Capcom said...

I don't know if I missed something along the way, but how do we know that some dead bodies were actually reanimated? How do we know that they weren't just apparitions? I know CS's body was not in the coffin, but I figured that it just got flung out of the coffin in the crash somewhere out into the jungle (yucky thought). So I need a reminder of how we would think that, tx. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

no Capcom you didn't miss anything (at least as far as a i remember which as we know is far from being reliable)

i'm just ASSUMING since we have not seen Christian's or Claire's dead body they have been reanimated or taken over by Smokey and/or MiB (also, i'm still a little reluctant to say that Smokey and MiB are the same entities)

Bigmouth said...

We don't know the bodies are reanimated -- that's why I refer to "copies" in the post -- but there are hints that Smokey snatches bodies. Remember, Yemi's corpse disappeared from the Beechcraft shortly before Eko encountered Zombie Yemi.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, i noticed you mentioned copies but something about that still does not quite sit right with me but i haven't come up with another explanation for having 3 "Lockes" on the island at the same time so i'll have to go with it

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I agree with Big's wording, the first real evidence was with Yemi. Then again, the producers have said that the Medusa spiders that paralyzed Nikki were created by Smokey. I'm assuming that, logically, it explains away no one else being bitten by the spiders, pheremones or not. (Yet it asks the question, why did MIB want Nikki dead?)

Its all our speculations re: copies or corpses, but the evidence leans towards it being the dead. If I were a betting man, I'd say Claire died in her sleep the night Christian came along.

Big, if MIB was in Radzinsky, do you think he "commited suicide" (since R. would be a shell at that point) because he needed to inhabit someone else? Or because he was done with whatever he needed R. for?

Greg, I think the three Lockes work just fine, two are the beginning of the loophole and the tying of the knot; you just take into consideration that MIB can assume a copy, as Big says, not the corpse. I'm sure we will never see Christian's dead body, if anything, we know Jacob saw Christian at the hospital, maybe MIB did, too, and knew how to copy him from memory. If I've been using the word corpse, I've been using the word in a broad sense, not making the implication of zombies wandering around the Island.

Back to another topic: you know how I've been harping on 1977-2007 happening over and over until the loophole finally works just the right way? Well, what if the Black Rock is all we need to know as an extension of how big (time-wise) the loophole is. This would explain why there's a big jump between ancient times and 1840. The intervening years were simply inconsequential to the story.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, I think the ruins are Ancient Greek (but correct me if they are Roman or something else)

so for me we have evidence of civilizations on the island during:

3100 BC - 0 AD (yes, you could go several centuries further but i like ending it there for now)

but then nothing until 1845, right?

and then nothing until 1954, right?

then nothing until 1974-2007 (don't think we have seen anything on island in 2008, yet), right?

btw, i'm thinking it was 3100 BC when Locke fixed the wheel and then turned it

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, we must be on the same wavelength or something since i too was pondering the big time gaps on island

yes, i understand the need for 3 Lockes i'm just saying i can't figure out any other explanation (yet, lol) than Flocke HAD to be a copy

Greg Tramel said...

3000 BC - chunk of Sirius (dog star) crashes onto earth making an ideal place to for the Siriuns (Sirens) to set up mining operations, hence all the tunnels) while their at it they influence Egyptian and Greek Civilizations

0 AD - mining dries up and they head back to Sirius

1845 - Black Rock with valuable minerals crashes on the island; they swoop down, gather them up and then leave

1954 - nuclear bombs threaten to destroy the island, can't let that happen so the "Watchers" return


Dog Star Days

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, it is simple about the Lockes. MIB Locke had Richard tell Beechcraft Locke EVERYTHING he needed to know to complete the loophole. I am calling it an ACTUAL loophole, like a noose. from the point Richard tells Locke they will meet in 1954, the compass, Jacob, dying, etc., all of that is what MIB told Richard. I think the conundrum is HOW MIB knew when and where the time flashes would occur, but, and this hurts my head, it does fit with Faraday's 1977 is O6's present, that they can die. It's a paradox, but I think MIB used 2008 Locke's memories, to recall the past events from 2004-2007. That's the only real way MIB Locke could know this, and the simple version of this is the compass. Who originally had it, it popped out of nowhere, as did MIB's seeming knowledge to feed Richard to give to Beechcraft Locke. Ow.

Speaking of paradoxes. Jack's grandfather seemed to just appear out of nowhere, in that he was never referenced until the very episode he appeared in. If MIB can make copies, what if he copied Jack's granddad in order to give him Christian's shoes? I can't imagine Jacob being able to leave the Island without MIB being able to do the same. By extension, could any of the ghosts Hurley sees be copies made by MIB? My thoughts here are that MIB needed everyone to get on Ajira as much as Jacob in order for his loophole to work.

Big, I'm working on WHITE RABBIT tonight. Three pages left (an epilogue) to that 550 page ghostwritten novel.

Greg Tramel said...

something about the making copies notion just rubs me the wrong way but i'll get over it since i've got nothing else

maybe will see a MiB (or Smokey) copy of Juliet since Smokey did a big scan on her

Capcom said...

Interesting about the Sirius mythologies.

GT your Greek ideas are interesting too. Whether by accident or purpose, the column that Cooper was tied to resembles the early Greek style more than any other ancient column style (and certainly not Egyptian): fat heavy "entasis" (tapered bottom-heavy swelling), bulky archaic doric order, all of which makes the columns look squatty. Such as in the temple of Hera: link

Although, the column that Coop was tied to had no fluting, but could have been meant to be highly eroded: link

Capcom said...

Oh, and what we have seen of the temple thus far (the blocky outer wall around it that RA took Bennie thru, and the outer corner found by the B612ers) kind of reminds me of a Summerian ziggurat: link

The Summerians go WAY back in time.

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom, yeah, i thought about taking it further back to the Summerians but didn't really have any evidence BUT NOW we do

THANKS! for pointing out the outer wall looking like a ziggurat, i missed that

Capcom said...

Neat! I figured that what we've seen so far looked rather blocky to be an Egyptian structure. I could be wrong though, and TPTB have created their own civilization conglomeration entirely, that defies historic definition! X-D

Capcom said...

Whoa, check this out,

"...The Mesopotamian ziggurats were not places for public worship or ceremonies. They were believed to be dwelling places for the gods and each city had its own patron god. Only priests were permitted on the ziggurat or in the rooms at its base, and it was their responsibility to care for the gods and attend to their needs."

That sounds a lot like Jacob and his dwelling in the statue base, and how only the leader can go into it to see him. :-o

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, re: copies. I think you nailed it when you said Smokey scanned Juliet (and possibly dingbat). I think what Big means, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, is that a reanimated corpse might not have the articulation needed to be believable as a living being. Also, as in WHITE RABBIT, Jack can never keep up with his dad, I think, because it is Christian/fast Smokey/tangible Christian, etc. Off the top of my head Charlie, Eko, Locke, Juliet and you-know-who saw Smokey. Plus, the tail enders ran from it, Libby, Ana-Lucia. Anyone I'm missing?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I love Sumeria.

Capcom said...

Neat Wayne! Did you see that movie "10000 BC", or whatever it was called? Wasn't that supposed to be about Sumeria? I didn't see it, but I heard that it wasn't so good. I'd still like to see it though, if it's interesting historically. Not so much tho if it's not, and it is all made up anachronistic conjecture.

LOL about the body copies. I'd still ike to know how MIB managed to also turn himself into the cop car that AnaL pulled Hurley over in! I mean, it disappeared when she did so it wasn't real! Unless it was just a hallucination given to Hurley by MIB or Jacob. X-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

That and the water behind the interrogation mirror that Charlie swam up against. If MIB is copying Hurley's ghosts, he really doesn't need to do much to the surroundings. It's just paranoid Hurley. I can go either way on the ghosts, but its more like me saying that, in the event Jacob couldn't gey Hurley back to the Island, well, MIB was certainly going to nudge him along.

Never did see 10,000 BC. No real reason, just never got around to it.

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom GOOD point about Anna-Lucia's cop car, that's a stumper

Big? so MiB can copy inanimate objects as well?

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, did you mean Jacob was gonna nudge Hurley along (in addition to MiB's "ghosts") or are you saying Jacob in the cab with Hurley was ACTUALLY MiB?

Bigmouth said...

I think there are zombies and there are ghosts/visions. Christian, Yemi, and Locke all seem to be zombies -- i.e., copies of actual corpses. I think AL and Charlie are ghosts/visions. The catch is that Formal Christian has also appeared as a vision off the Island -- i.e., to Jack in the hospital. As I recall, it was right after the SMOKE alarm went off. So perhaps both the zombies AND the ghosts/visions can be attributed to Smokey.

Greg Tramel said...

Kate=Dingbat, LOL, she can be cute every once in awhile but she REALLY screws things up, i still think Sawyer and Kate are soulmates though

Greg Tramel said...

oh! some zombies=copies, i never knew that, guess i always thought of zombies being more like the dead coming back alive kinda in a body snatching way but after the body is dead (thinking that a body snatcher takes over an alive body)

but maybe i've had it wrong all these years Big et al,

what about Ann Lucia's cop car? a ghost?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, I did forget about Christian at the hospital, it was right after that that Jack had the lady doc write his first scrip.

Greg, again, I'm just talking, not believing it one way or another, in fact I lean more towards Jacob/MIB being a schizoid. But, for the sake of argument, let's say MIB knew that, as Jacob did, that the main characters needed to be on Ajira for dead Locke to get back to the Island IN 2007, thus...making his loophole work. So yes, it was Jacob with the guitar case in the cab, but it was MIB appearing as ghosts to kinda tip Hurley towards believing Jacob an getting on the plane, the idea that if he went back to the Island then he'd stop seeing gthosts. Put differently, MIB was trying to get everyone on Ajira, too, but for a different reason. Or the same reason. Big & I might disagree on the Hurley sees dead people thing, but, as I said, while I can see this happening, I'm more apt to think it's just another thing the writers would like us to think about.

Then again, MIB was screwing with Jack at the hospital, starting him on druggie road, but this begs a question: can MIB and/or Jacob see the future, or is it more intuitiveness on their part? Was MIB trying to get Jack zonked out because he knew Jack needed to hit bottom before he'd find the faith to go get his father's shoes and put them on Locke? How exactly did Jacob know to touch Sayid at exactly the moment Nadia was going to be killed? There's got to be something there.

synchrobrarian said...

guess i see jacob/mib being alchemical twins or cosmic twins or like a schizoid with both being parts of the same entity

smokey is their god, they piss smokey off sometimes and he locks them up in a cabin for timeout

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And Greg, no. The cop car was not a ghost. It's Hurley, man. You or I could walk up to him and convince him of anything, in the show he sees the squad, hears the sirens, because he IS freaked out about Sayid in the car. For my argument to work, it means simply that Hurley imagined the squad, it could have been a normal Crown Vic and he imagined the sirens.

When he was in the interrogation room in S5, when Charlie was on the other side of the window and the water came through, well, that really didn't happen, either. Only Hurley thought it did. That's my real basis for saying that Hurley imagined the squad car.

Zombies aren't what everyone knows from the films and books, god knows there as many crappy zombie novels as there are vampire novels on the stands now thx to Permutated Press. In Romero's first film, they were ghouls. Going back to Lon Chaney Sr. in LONDON AFTER MIDNIGHT, he was a ghoul. Zombies are simply reanimated corpses, which better explains why MIB can have their memories, voices, etc. Ghouls eat flesh. But they are more zombie-copies (I guess) in that, in some cases, the actual appearances aren't conceivable. E.g., Claire, sure. Christian, no, he'd be all mangled from the crash.

Its all about the branding, Greg, I think many people don't get what a true zombie is. Nowadays, you have to use the word zombie as a brand just to get a movie made or a book published.

Greg Tramel said...

ok i'll go with that, Hurley just sees things or thinks he sees them

nothing to do with MiB or Jacob or Smokey

Capcom said...

Hurley's imagination works for me too, especially considering the water tank part that didn't really happen.

I'd bet that the MIB and Jacob are intermingled all throughout the interventions (for lack of a better word) and as you said, for different reasons or possible crossed purposes. And I'm beginnning to wonder if much of what the Hostiles as Others in DI-ville thought was Jacob's wishes were actually the MIB's. Which might have had a lot to do with the horrible plot of Locke being told to kill his father in front of everyone. Ugh! I may have to write a post on that soon, it still horrifies me.

My zombie standard is still "I Walked With A Zombie", heheh.

Bigmouth said...

Good call re the water tank hallucination, Wayne. I'm not 100% sure who's behind the ghosts, but I'm leaning towards Jacob because they tell Hurley to come back and because I associate Formal Christian with Jacob. Then again, Casual Christian tells Locke to find Eloise, so maybe the ghosts are really the MIB trying to create his loophole.

Greg Tramel said...

i've been wondering the same thing,

do the Others and/or RA even know about MiB

if they know about MiB can they definitively distinguish which is which and which one is giving them directives

Capcom said...

P.S. And I can totally envision Claire dying in her sleep from a concussion or something to that effect.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Meant to mention water tank along with Crown Vic squad earlier in the day, my bad. But that's what made me think that, right after I wondered if MIB was playing granddad Shepard.

Capcom, I have no qualms about the Others wanting Locke to man up and kill his dad, though I know our views are different on such matters. I think that the real point of Cooper's death was that Richard gave Locke the intel on Sawyer, claiming the Ben was all caught up in other things during that time. Taken in context, I don't think it was Jacob or MIB telling the Others, I think it was BEN wanting Locke to fail, Ben's crew in Tallahasee who abducted Cooper. Just as Ben added Jack's name to Jacob's list, he was lying yet again. Hell, he's the one who should be married to Kate.

Re: the ghosts. And Jacob/MIB. I think those two are just leap-frogging over each other and that's the most maddening puzzle. At the end of the season I was like, man, good guy/bad guy. Then as we continued this discussion, its like these two guys just blur together and then separate again. Instead of, say MIB trying to foil Jacob's plan re: Ajira, he helped it along. Or vice versa. It's very confusing to think about who is really up to what right now.

Capcom, ZOMBIES ON BROADWAY, mid 40s. Odd little film.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, once Claire told Sawyer she had a headache but it went away, I kinda thought she would die in her sleep, during a nap, whatever. Still doesn't explain Christian wearing those brownm boots, though.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg, take it a step further past if the Others know about MIB. How much do they know of the Temple? Sure, Ben told Richard to take them there when Keamey was blowing up everybody, but that could have meant take them to the walls, or maybe all the important Temple stuff is below ground. Are the Others even aware of Smokey as Smokey, not Smokey/MIB?

Capcom said...

LOL Wayne. X-D And I'll have to check that film out too.

Jacob and MIB are reminding me a lot of those twin matter and antimatter guys on the StarTrek:TOS ep that were in an eternal struggle with each other: link . There is Lazarus A and Lazarus B (there ya go GT, with your A and B), there's rips in time, parallel universes, etc. In the end they just went off to fight each other for ever and ever. And, "... the other one went mad with rage at the thought of having a double, so much so that he doesn't care if he destroyed himself and the entire universe in the process as long as he could destroy the other."(Wiki) :-o

Capcom said...

A much better summary of the ep is here, with pix and dialogue: link

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

At first I thought you were talking about the Frank Gorshin episode, where both men are half black and half white.

By the way, re LONDON AFTER MIDNIGHT. I believe it was filmed in 1921, most of it lost in a fire, there's maybe 15 existing frames. The guys in ZOMBIES ON BROADWAY were like a second-tier Abbott & Costello, but I read up on them once and it seemed they had decent careers.

Greg Tramel said...

gotta find that zombies on broadway

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

A month since the comments started here. Seems longer. Then it seems shorter. Guess its the time thing on the Island.

Capcom said...

Have a happy and safe 4th weekend everyone!

Right Wayne, will we get to the 401st comment (to change the pages) before Big posts his tapestry article? :o)

Greg Tramel said...

yep. some of my friends are tired of my lost talk BUT we still got ALOT to try to figure out

Capcom said...

That's for sure GT. Some blogs have all but come to a stop as well, they must have gotten Lost overload. But I'm glad that we have still kept things paddling along here still because, like you say, there is still SO much to discuss. It's just too bad that we can't do it in person with some wine and cheese and crackers. Or, beer and pretzels if one prefers. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

a little bit of all of the above sounds good to me Capcom

i'm off today and just went outside (Houston), it’s back up to over 100 degrees, have to stay inside ALL day

is it a spoiler if TPTB confirm a character is coming back?

on another note, the photos and video clips are cracking me up here

THE JATE AIN'T FATE TOUR 2009

Capcom said...

Hi-larious. But yoiks, there she goes with the Fox and Jater-hate again, although I have to admit that their Jate fantasies do get annoying, heheh.

I love that pic of Kate as a vampire! X-D

I would not really care if we knew who is coming back next season, but I don't know how others feel about that here. I know on TLC that it's a big no-no.

Greg Tramel said...

yep Jaters can get a bit annoying but i guess i can be also as a Skater (i think that is what we Sawyer/Kate devotees are called)

BIG’s TAPAETSRY POST IS UP

Greg Tramel said...

**POSSIBLE SPOILER** at this link, TPTB definitively confirm 1 of the characters we have been wondering about WILL return, they also do a funny riff on Mathew Fox knowing or NOT the final ending

Exclusive - Team Darlton talk 'Lost'!

Capcom said...

If I had to choose I'd be a Jawyer...or, a Sawliet. :o)

Thanks for the link and heads-up about the new post!

intergalactic said...

Amazing theory.

My question for you being this:

Comic-Con as you may or may not know is next week. Damon and Carlton will as as always I imagine be making an appearance.

Any thoughts as to what they may or may not share, tease, or taunt the fans with?

...i

Bigmouth said...

intergalactic: I'm glad you enjoyed it! You can read my hopes and predictions for Comic Con here.

Anonymous said...

I am new to the Lost hysteria. Just watched the first 5 seasons this last month and am obsessed, so now my fate has definitely changed (at least until the finale ;)

Some great theories here. I had really thought the Adam and Eve skeletons would be Sun and Jin since the dark/light of their relationship was a main focus of the episode where Adam and Eve were discovered. Would also play heavily into the "variable" theme that the future can only be changed by misdirected fates, since Sun was not supposed to be getting on that flight. I have also had thoughts that Sun's father is in on this somehow and knew of Sun's planned escape, and thought he was sending Jin to his death. Jin is angry when he arrives and handcuffed by the losties after attacking Michael, but Sun chanages his fate because she is there and can speak English to explain to Michael, who frees Jin. I can only imagine had Jin arrived alone, he would have been even darker. Both Jin and Sun have grown to love and understand the darkness and lightness in each other. The writers mentioned also that Adam and Eve would be a major part of the finale and that it will be understood that they knew what would happen all along. If all-along means from the beginning, I guess that would rule out Jin and Sun, but there have been hints that they know more than they are letting on now (i.e. Sun knows Aaron and Ji will be together). If the writers really mean they Adam and Eve knew everything that would happen all along, seems they could only be Widmore and Eloise?

Someone posted something about not understanding why Widmore could not get back to the island. Eloise mentioned that each person has a different window that closes at different times, so I am guessing that their windows were closed before they found the way to return, so their only alternative is to have now is to change things so that they never left?

New Lost Zombie

Joseph Charles said...

My God, or should I say, My Omega Convergence! I was going to be a Catholic priest at some point -- long time ago -- and your mention of Chardin tickled me pink. I love theology, so, naturally, I find all of this to be just fascinating. Fascinating. Plus, your theories are infinitely more satisfying than the conspiracy theories like virtual reality or deception, etc. Anyone that wants to know about "Lost," I send them to your blog. Brilliant.

Bigmouth said...

Thanks for the kind words, Darkprose! If you're a fan of Chardin and Catholicism, I highly recommend Dan Simmons's Hyperion Cantos, which features both in a sci-fi context.

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