Friday, July 03, 2009

A Little Push...

Lately I've been thinking about Jacob's Tapestry. At a very basic level, the act of weaving obviously symbolizes fate. But beyond the obvious, was Jacob weaving the fate of all humanity, or some subset like our Losties? I believe it's the latter, albeit with implications for the former. Jacob's Tapestry depicts a very special destiny in which his chosen ones save the world.



In Three Black Swans, I suggested that the human race is destined for extinction, as symbolized by the Valenzetti Equation. Jacob wants to avoid this end but realizes the universe is too powerful for him to directly alter the fate of all humanity. He can, however, reweave fate on a more limited scale, bringing people to the Island to create a butterfly effect that indirectly changes human destiny, a process symbolized by the Tapestry.

If the notion of a higher power guiding characters to some special fate sounds familiar, it should. That theme runs through the works of Stephen King and Stanley Kubrick, two major influences on the show. I'm reminded of how the Overlook Hotel brings Jack Torrance and his family to serve its evil ends in the Shining, or the way the monoliths guide Dave Bowman to humanity's evolution beyond the infinite in 2001: A Space Odyssey.



Really, though, no work better exemplifies this theme than the Odyssey, which Jacob's Tapestry quotes twice. The gods in Homer's epic poem often intervene in the lives of mortals to shape their destinies. There's also a specific parallel to Penelope's loom, with which she daily weaves and reweaves the funeral shroud of Laertes, delaying her impending remarriage the way Jacob delays our inevitable extinction.



The catch is that, as Jacob tells Hurley, those interwoven in the Tapestry "always have a choice" whether or not to answer destiny's call. This may be because Jacob believes in free will, or because the usual rules of course correction don't apply "when you're making the thread" yourself. Unlike the Valenzetti, therefore, the Tapestry is not a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like Jacob says to Jack, sometimes it takes "a little push."



Notice how the Tapestry shows an Eye of Horus with many arms reaching out to touch nine human figures. This clearly refers to scenes where Jacob makes physical contact with nine characters at pivotal moments in their lives, presumably to give them a little push. In prior posts, I've discussed the significance of the pen he gives Little Sawyer to finish the letter, but other encounters illustrate this dynamic as well.

Take Jacob's visit to Little Katie, which does more than save her from becoming Winona Ryder. Jacob also buys Kate the "New Kids on the Block" lunchbox that she and Tom Brennan use for their time capsule. Years later, Kate returns to Iowa and digs up the capsule with Tom. His death forces her to flee to Australia, where Marshall Mars catches her. Jacob's push thus ensures that Kate is a passenger on Oceanic 815.



Or consider Jacob's aforementioned visit to Jack. Their encounter takes place just after Jack has the "count to five" experience (i.e., cutting his patient's dural sac) that he relates to Kate following the crash of Oceanic 815. Not only do Jack and Kate bond over this story, they later use it as a code during her escape with Sawyer from Hydra Island. Here again, Jacob's push seems perfectly timed to effectuate events we've seen.



Jacob's fingerprints are similarly all over Jin and Sun's improbable wedding and Locke's survival of an eight-story fall. The marriage of a humble fisherman's son to the daughter of a rich tycoon is unlikely in class-conscious Korea. And I suspect Locke should have been completely paralyzed -- or even killed -- by his fall. I've explained before why these three Losties are integral to Jacob's plan, so it's no surprise he pushes them.



Jacob's intervention stops Sayid from being killed like Nadia. Or does he stop Sayid from saving Nadia? Either way, it's to push Sayid back to the Island so he can help cause the Incident. Ultimately, it takes Ilana to get Sayid on Ajira 316, but her full role in Jacob's reweaving remains unclear. Ilana's push may relate to that face bandage she's wearing when Jacob visits her in the hospital. What do you suppose happened to her scars?



Then, of course, there's Hurley. I've speculated previously that DHARMA's top chef will quantum leap to 2004, so he can plant Charlie's guitar, which is Jacob's version of the compass paradox. But I'm confident Hurley has an even more important role to play in effectuating the Tapestry. Now that Jacob is cremated, and we know Miles can't converse with ghosts, Hurley may be Jacob's only means of communicating with his people.

Nine chosen ones whose fates Jacob has rewoven with his magical Tapestry to "save us all" from Valenzetti's mathematical prophecy of extinction. Faith vs. science, free will vs. fate, Jacob vs. the Man in Black. As we head into the final season of Lost, it's the Tapestry against the Equation. Can you imagine two more fitting metaphors for the meta-conflicts of the show?

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

344 comments:

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Greg Tramel said...

so the 9th one is Ilana?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thank you, Big! The idea of the Tapestry (on the show) vs. the Equation (on the ARG) is a great way of describing what S6 will be about, which is, as we've expected faith vs. science. I know you didn't mention the ARG, my point is that there'd be no real way to explain Valenzetti during S6 without it being forced. You think? I'm betting if extinction is brought up, it will be explained vaguely (compared to the ARG) as simply a scientific explanation for a faith-based phenomenon. Maybe the coming war is indeed about faith vs. science, by having faith and not panicking in the face of science's prediction.

Miles will tell Hurley whatever Jacob was thinking before he burned, Hurley will take it further, and from there, you got me.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

If it is Ilana, I think knowing when Jacob visited her would help piece things together.

Greg Tramel said...

and who are the 7 (8 if you count the harp player) in the next row and what are they doing? 2 are dead in the urns with a 3rd urn ready for the next person to be cremated?

are the Kings in the 1st row Jacob and MiB?

Greg Tramel said...

somebody was making a point that jacob had a glove on when he touched ilana but i have not verfied that is a concrete fact

Greg Tramel said...

it seemed like it wasn't the 1st time Jacob visited Ilana, maybe the 1st time he brought her back to life like Locke from a nuclear meltdown or something

Greg Tramel said...

i'm REALLY digging the Hurley part, since Jacob will be cremated Miles won't be able pick up Jacob's "communications" so it's up to Hurley, YES! VERY COOL!

Capcom said...

Very nice post! :-)

I sure like the Tapestry vs. Valenzetti idea as well. And, I just want the VE to finally figure into the show somehow, heheh. I wouldn't be against a few minutes of quick exposition to explain it.

Don't forget Arthur C. Clarke in the higher power authors bunch, especially concerning 2001. Some of his stories involved higher-evolved civilizations, which were sometimes unseen in the actual story, but paramount to the evolution of what happens in the plot.

How many of the figures are actually touching (and not just reaching up to) the arms, six?

I'm wondering along with the thought that it was at/after Chernobyl that Jacob visited Ilana. Was that in the mid '80s? But it did seem as if he knew her before.

I too think that it will be very exciting if Hurley plays a big part in communicating with, or as, Jacob!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Chernobyl was April 1986, Chicago had very minute levels of radioactivity in a huge rain later that week. So, unless Ilana is like Richard, I've put aside that accident. Don't forget the chemical burn Juliet saw on Goodwin, I'm thinking more she had some kind of chemical burn, like they had in Bhopal, India (but that was in 1983 or 4). And I wonder if the first time Jacob visited Ilana he brought her back to life as he did with Locke after his fall.

If Ilana has radiation burns I'm still trying to think of from where, because they do use actual references (as with 1954 Jughead) on the show. She is one of the bigger mysteries right now.

When I mentioned Miles above, if its not clear, I'm thinking that, unless there's a big pile-up of everybody in 2007 all at once, Miles can at least (maybe?) pinpoint where to open the door to the four-toes. To me, it seems as if one of the reasons for Miles is for him and Hurley to help each other, ghost-wise. Yea, Jacob was cremated, but I'm just sayin. He might have some stray thoughts bouncing around his plinth.

Capcom said...

I'd agree that Miles and Hurley could be meant to be a psychic tagteam. :-)

I also would not write off Jacob's ashes just yet either.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i still haven’t given up the notion of Jacob hoping to another body like maybe dead Locke or another dead character

Capcom said...

I'm counting on the Phoenix principle somehow happening. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I was thinking the phoenix all along, because of symbolism being wetwired into my head now re: LOST.
That first appearance with Jacob kinda sorta looking like Locke might mean he has a new host body in S6, but part of me thinks S6 is Hurley talking to a ghost with any Jacob jumps late in the season, plus the Locke thing could be misdirection as the producers are so fond of.

If I'm correct in that Big has laid out the idea that the war that is coming is about faith vs. science, what dualities do we already know of in the show. E.g., Room 23 and the God Loves You As He Loved Jacob frame.

Capcom said...

Howsabout the duality of smart vs. stupid women, e.g. Juliet vs. Kate. :o)

I've always had in mind the aspect of The World (assimilation) vs. The Island (isolation), maybe because I've always been torn between the advantages of assimilation vs. the peace and quiet of being a loner, haha. That became especially pronounced to me in the story of Juliet. She left the World where she was unhappy being a weak fish in a big pond ful of angry fish (except for being with her sister) and went to the Island to be happy, important, and productive in her work, and became lonely and sad, longing to go back the the World. But all along with the Losties and their destiny, I've always wondered if I myself would pick foregoing the World in favor of doing a great thing in staying on the Island and doing something fantastic like protecting its specialness.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

To be honest, Capcom, what truly hooked me to the show was Elizabeth Mitchell being the female Michael Emerson for more than a few episodes, then by the time of the time flashes, she is so comfortable about everything she wisecracks "Why don't we all put down our guns?" with ease. Kate never evolves, kinda like Jack.

So there's the human aspect, but I was thinking more of the Valenzetti Equation vs. the tapestry. I'm still trying to get where the Others took over the DI barracks and started things like brainwashing kids. I'm at a loss for a more concrete example, but there must be one or two that are in plain view now that we know there is a Jacob and an MIB and a coming war.

But, yea, Juliet and dingbat. Before Sawyer, I would think that being with Goodwin helped her assimilate to the Island along with her work, and Richard, Ethan, and Buggy's belief in her work.

Obviously, the Others kept using the DI stuff, though. Not just The Flame for communications, Ben knew about the Orchid and the DI's "stupid experiments." I don't know that Room 23 was all Ben's idea, because Walt was in there per Jacob's (implied) orders.

jane said...

The lame shall enter first, Bigmouth. "Godspeed" is the terrible speed of mercy. Without eyes, we can hold more, because Truth makes room.

For insight into Ilana, get yourself a copy of Suture, an art film from the 90's.

jane said...

The tapestry is not a self-fulfilling prophecy, but a Self fulfilling prophecy. Thou art.

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

Yes, Room23! And then you could put on the list: the Others' stupid experiments vs. The DI's stupid experiments. You know, Room23 makes me think even more that MIB was more the catalyst behind (most of) the Others' work, because forcing someone into submission like that just doesn't seem like Jacob's style after seeing him gently touch people to give them "a little push" as he put it to Jack.

Off topic, if anyone of our scholarly fellow Sickies are into studying history as it pertains to or surrounds biblical times, I highly recommend the new "Chronological Study Bible". It is laid out in order of historical timeline rather than the traditional books layout, and is full of (on every page) insets and sidebars exlaining what was happening in rest of the Middle East at the time, including local traditions, gods of other civilizations, civ comparisons, food, technology, archeology, etc. It's also very artfully done, the pages are sepia and papyrus-y looking, as are the insets and illustrations. It's been another fun reference to use during the past couple seasons of Lost as well. link

Could you explain a little how Suture can give insight on Ilana Jane? I've never seen it, and the description seems to revolve around two brothers. Tx. :-)

Anonymous said...

Regarding Jacob's visit to Ilana, there's an interesting theory going around that it's actually a flashforward, and Ilana's bandages are from the burns she suffers pulling Jacob from the fire.

Capcom, I agree with you that the Others, whether through Ben or Widmore's leadership, have been influenced by the MiB, but I don't see Room 23 as evidence. On that I'll take Ben's word that he was just trying to protect his daughter. Seems like the kind of thing religious zealots would do anyway - whether they worship Jacob or the MiB.

- Pedro

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Anon, I suppose there's a way to explain the burns on her face, but will all the time jumps, a flashfwd might be difficult to take, unless a huge chunk of S6 amounts to a kind of flashfwd. The argument might be where did Ilana's burns--radiation, chemical, fire--go, the implication might be that Jacob made them go away as he brought Locke back to life after his fall and he made Juliet's cancer disappear. Still, an interesting theory.

And yes, Anon and Capcom, Room 23 was seen as a way to goof up Karl, but it seems pretty darn elaborate for a one-time thing (if they hadn't come across Walt). There always was a kind of blind worship to the Others, hell, even now none of them has actually SEEN Jacob.

I've had different thoughts on Room 23 since Hydra seemed to be abandoned, that all the children were brought there, that it was a punishment along the lines of Juliet's branding. And that made me think of the difference between being judged by the Others and being judged by Smokey, if the Others had the technology of the DI.

While Ben did change after Widmore left, he had Alex, and they caused the Purge, he really went loopy about the time Juliet came to the Island in 2001. With all the loops going on, it seems as if Juliet's real predestinated purpose was to be there so that she can cause the whiteout in 1977. I was going to bring up if anyone else susceptible to what amounts to L. Ron Hubbard's scientology--aftter winning his Hugo in the 40s for science fiction, he was asked his next plans, and he replied he would start a new religion--but then I thought of Cindy and the those tail section survivors who were abducted. They were on one of Jacob's lists, right? Couldn't it be that this is the fate of Henry Gale, that for whatever reason he didn't make Jacob's list and was killed? (It wasn't for Ben to get a fake identity, surely).

Capcom said...

Oh, that's a different thought about Ilana, hmm.

So Ben created Room23 just to brainwash Karl to save Alex? Heheh, it would be funny if that's what was used on Ben that made him lose his innocence.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And what's up with all of Ben's fake passports anyway? (Talking about IDs). Re: Gale, let's say the idea was to have Ana-Lucia and Sayid find his grave, and call b.s. on Ben. Would this then be Ben doing something on his own or Ben doing what Jacob wants?

If Jacob let Ben be a loose cannon for quite some time, he must've known it would be Ben who would stab him. (It's been brought up more than once that MIB can't harm Jacob and vice versa, with Richard as the go-between.)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, you bring up a goodf point. If it was used to make Ben lose his innocence, why was there a Room 23 AND a DI guy with the LSD sugar cubes? Could Room 23 have been used on certain DI people at the various stations, so that they'd forget what they did at the Swan, Pearl, etc.?

Capcom said...

Good point about making people lose their memories, especially if they wandered into some "secret circle" stuff like Miles did. I'd think that the LSD and Room23 would go great together for a very effective result! Damm Ann Arbor hippies and their pseudo-psychology. :-D

Yeah, I'm still very confused about the whole Henry Gale thing. Maybe that's going to end up as one of those "extra pieces" of the puzzle in the end.

Greg Tramel said...

Ilana rescuing Jacob out of the fire? maybe but it sure seemed like an off island emergency care facility of some kind

Room 23? if the DI included the Jacob stuff in their ‘orientation” contraption/video that might mean Jacob brought the DI to the island

Greg Tramel said...

I have to admit I had pretty much closed the door on our 9 characters touched by Jacob (which I 1st read from Fishbiscuitland) in the tapestry because I could not reconcile the rest of the tapestry with the story but because of Big’s post I’m open to considering it again AFTER somebody decodes the rest and completes the tapestry story

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom, yeah i guess when Juliet (I’m still HOPING she will be in season 6) and Kate were handcuffed together it was another twinning/duality symbol and laughed when you said it was smart vs. stupid

yes, Juliet’s intelligence is another reason i would choose Juliet over Kate in a heartbeat

Greg Tramel said...

yeah Jane, enlighten us on how Suture ties into Ilana

regardless, sounds like an interesting movie and will try to watch it

Greg Tramel said...

intersting idea from It's About Rabbits blogger

"But from watching the mobisodes too, with the birds crashing right outside of Room 23's boarded up window, I wonder if what might be special about Walt is more magnetic. Both polar bears and bird have a physical draw to magnetic poles. It's almost like a built in compass. Does he have magnetic properties that they wanted to study like what was in the Swan Hatch. Why were they studying the properties? To harness it for time travel?"

Greg Tramel said...

so back to the tapestry, maybe Jacob's touch infused a magnetic property into our 9 Lost characters aka "The Nine" (oh, no don’t get me started on that, google The Nine Andrija Puharich if you want to go down that rabbit hole)

and one can look at this magnetic idea both metaphorically and as physical scientific property which may be at least partial reasons why our 9 crossed paths on “earth” and ended up on the Island (aka Sirius A) together

sorry, I’m stuck, LOL, on these magnetism and Sirius ideas these days but after what we saw in The Incident there very well may be something there

oh and to take it a step further MiB is negative and Jacob is positive in the magnetic sense and metaphorically

Greg Tramel said...

i know i’ve posted links to these bogs before but to give credit

here is the link to Ms Wendy's blog

It's About Bunnies

(Bunnies instead of Rabbits, sorry, Ms Wendy)

and here i s the link were i read that "The Nine" at the top of Jacob's Tapestry represents 9 Lost characters

APPROACHING OMEGA

Greg Tramel said...

guess I always thought Room 23 was a place to indoctrinate the kids into worshiping Jacob, I figured the Others reconfigured the “treatment” to add stuff about Jacob but it very well could be the DI used it as is but they may have started using it on animals

so along within Carl possibly impregnating Alex, Carl refused to worship Jacob so Ben sent him to the treatment center to indoctrinate him in addition to a no sex with Alex punishment/indoctrination

the indoctrination treatment wouldn’t work at all on Walt and therefore Walt could be a threat to Jacob so he was allowed to leave the island

Greg Tramel said...

ok, last 1 FOR AWHILE that is

i think Henry Gale’s story is done, in addition to being another nod to The Wizard of Oz, i think Widmore sent him to the island under the guise of finding valuable minerals since Henry Gale had a mining company or something like that, I think he really did die in the fall but maybe Ben killed him

i think it is very difficult to infer who was actually on Jacob’s list versus who Richard and/or Ben made up about who’s on Jacob list(and for that matter which were really Jacob’s wishes versus what was made up to suit agendas) or how much MiB factored into the lists and wishes,

still wonder if Richard knew about MiB and if so could he definitively distinguish between the 2 (or rather the 2 parts of the whole, LOL)

not sure the kids were actually on Jacob’s list, the Others just needed kids to carry on their work since pregnancies weren’t an option at the time

Capcom said...

I wonder if it's significant that the sun is only actually touching the hands of 6 people?

GT, at first I thought, nah, about Walt's magnetism, but then finishing your quote, it does sound good. I'd also like to know why Walt appeared dripping wet and talking backwards. More extra puzzle pieces. :-p

Re: Juliet's intelligence over Kate, I hear ya. Although, neither is "my type", to quote Tom, heheh. I'd say that Sawyer and Kate, and Jack and Juliet make better pairs, but after seeing blissful Sawliet in DI-ville, and after Sawyer sobbing over her fall, I liked them together...if someone put a gun to my head and made me choose a "ship" scenario that is. I never really liked any of the guys that much (Hurley and Bone are too young for me, Jack's too uptight, Locke's too needy, and I gave up on bad boys a lonnnnng time ago) until Dan and Miles came to the island. Dan's just plain adorable geekness and I kind of like Miles' crabbiness for some reason...maybe because it matches mine. :o)

Hey, keep going with the Sirius thing, that theory is just as good as any others! I really have to find those Sirius graphics in Hoagland's archives so you can check them out and make collages with them. :-D

Speaking of Alex and Carl, everyone on other blogs thought that Ben was doing the fertility thing so hard because of his guilt feelings about his mother ("You look like HER"), but now it seems more like he was desperately trying to save Alex's life before she eventually had kids. :-o

Whoa, my special July 4th glass of absynthe is kicking in, heheh. Green fairies! :o)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, there was a list on one of the Others that Eko killed. A sheet of paper describing who was wearing what, so they weren't taking just the kids, or at least, Jacob simply asking for the kids.

I agree the Henry Gale thing is over, I was more saying maybe he wouldn't accept being an Other or maybe he didn't make Jacob's list (or one and the same) and he was then killed. Goodwin killed Steve (?) in cold blood, then told Ana Lucia that he wasn't good, either. Jacob had a lot of blind followers, that's for sure.

Re: Walt and electromagnetism. A neat theory. That polar bear might have been drawn to Walt, not attacking him, back in S1. (When Walt hid inside the tree.)

Re: smart vs. dingbat. Funny thing, without the settlement from Oceanic, I'd love to see why kind of job skills Kate would have had as a non-fugitive. I'd say Vincent is smarter. What Capcom said put something in perspective, the women viewers sure get a lot of eye candy. A lot of women were killed off in S1 and S2, well, S2, really. Shannon, Libby, Ana Lucia. Oh, and yes, even Shannon was smarter than dingbat. Even in death. So, yeah, still lots of guys for the ladies, I'll bet a few might even be turned on by Dr. Chang. (Maybe three, total.)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, if Ben was working on the fertility issues and then saw Alex killed, was he then yelling at Jacob when he said "You changed the rules?"

Capcom said...

Interesting! It would be like TPTB to do a switcheroo direction on someone or something that we hadn't even seen yet.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

More thinking out loud there, Capcom. Before "The Incident," most everyone thought it was Ben vs. Widmore, now we know its Jacob/MIB. The only fault is that Ben didn't bring this up before he stabbed Jacob and, of course, he wangts to harm Penny. Which could also mean that Jacob/MIB were making Ben/Widmore do some of the off-Island work for them. re: the coming war.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Change of topic. Tarawet is also a symbol of the northern sky, which then brings to mind Tunisia, Egypt, Greece, the radio station Sayid and Hurley heard, the magnetic pole. I'm likely missing a few more. Just bringing that up because most often people are talking about the fertility thing. The Earth wobbles on its access, centuries ago we had a different pole star (and true magnetic north), so could the exit/entry/whatever in Tunisia have been in Egypt, with Greek explorers bopping through the hole?

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, oh i did forget sbout the list on tnhe OTher Eko killed, i'm just saying the list(s) could have been made up by Ben since he never really communicated with Jacob anyway or Richard made the list(s) up saying it was Jacob's desire

Shannon is smarter than dingbat, even dead, LOL, I do miss Shannon’s short dress, Sawyer made a crack about her legs

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom, i have NO idea if RA/Horius'arms touching only 6 figures mean anything but maybe a point to consider

absinthe!, i've been wanting to try that like forever, how does it taste? do you put it over a sugar cube (sans LSD, lol)

Greg Tramel said...

there does seem to be a kind of layering, 1 civilization built on top of the other, i'm sticking with the island goes back to ancient Sumeria and then the Egyptians and the Greeks all adding their stuff to the previous civilization's ruins

hmm, i wonder if i can find a Sirius/Tarawet connection

maybe the beings from Sirius taught the Sumerians, Egyptians, and Greeks how to get through the wormhole to the Island

Capcom said...

Don't forget the backwards Ursa Major too Wayne! :-D Interesting about the vortex possibly moving too. I wonder if the last reversing of the poles could be involved here also.

I dunno, Shannon vs. Kate....it's a tough decision. But perhaps Shannon was a bit simple-minded to begin with, with the difference being that Kate should know better, she seems to have been at least born with brains even if she doesn't use them!

Heheh, no I don't use the sugar cube GT, it's really too sweet already. I just add the water. But one of these days, maybe on Van Gogh's Bday?, I should do the cube and fire thing with it! It's pretty expensive, used to be about $30 a bottle, but now (due to recent popularity) it's up to $40. BUT, when you consider that it is to be mixed 1:1 with water, you're really getting two bottles for that price. At least that's what I told myself. And it's so strong, you only have to drink a little glass at a time so one bottle lasts a very long time. If you buy the one that comes in the box, it has a picture of Van Gogh on it with three faces on one head. X-D

It also feels to me as if there are many civilizations layered on the island over time.

Capcom said...

Oops, I forgot to answer: absynthe tastes very much like an anise liqueur, or, Good-n-Plenty candies. :o) But thinner and lighter than Italian Sambuca.

And it's a very pretty clear bright green that turns pearlescent (hence the famous green fairy cloud) when the water is added.

Capcom said...

P.S.S., and it's perfectly safe to drink. It's now thought that the problem with the turn of the century absynthe drinkers going crazy is that it was probably mixed with opium/laudanum, which was a very popular personal medicine back then.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Absinthe is fairly cheap here, and there's a tavern with that name at Damen & Milwaukee. In one of my books, I have a bar called Absinthia's because, boy, was I ever clever in 1992. Gah.

Yeah, Capcom, backwards Dipper. Then there was Alex and Karl and their made-up polar bear constellation. I'm wondering if it was more something they came up with as kids, they saw polar bears and there you go.

And one of the 2012 doomsday riffs is a pole shift. A neat idea for a story, because certainly LOST can't explain it in S6, would be a moving Island whose sole job is to keep the poles from shifting through reverse magnetism.

I forgot Ilana (and the younger Ellies), but you girls still have a lot of guys to choose from. I'll bet some of you grooved on long-haired Widmore.

And, Greg, one thing that might be the case re: Sumerians. We don't know a hell of a lot about them, and they were so far back in our history that any remnant on the Island are under the volcanic soot.

Greg Tramel said...

i'd like to drink some and watch Moulin Rouge

so it's readily available in liquor stores these day?

Greg Tramel said...

Ilana is foxy and young Ellie is cute

guess the point i'm just trying to make is i think the island has been around since the beginning of our civilization

but that being said, i'm not sure if i believe it was in another place in the universe and moved/crashed or if it was always accessible via a wormhole from earth

Capcom said...

OK, come on, the ladies didn't have anything good until Sawyer started taking off his shirt. Kate and Sun were in their undies in the water from the get-go, and Shannon in her bikini sunbathing. All we had was Boone's limpid pools of bedroom eyes and Sawyer's chest once in a while, and I guess that you could count Jack shirtless when Kate sutured him up but that wasn't sexy IMO. Then later we finally got some eye candy on a regular basis after Desmond's nekkid trek in the jungle, but by then Kate was bending over in the short dress, and washing her boobs at the shore to get Jack's attention back. And you guys even got a mud wrestling match, haha. But yeah, middle-aged Widmore was very swashbuckling, yow!

I like that name for a bar Wayne, it's rather Goth. :-)

Great idea for drinking and movie watching GT. Yes, it's in most liquor stores that have a decent exotic liqueur section.

I'm OK with the island getting here via wormhole too. And not being able to get back from whence it came perhaps? Or did Jacob and MIB just decide to stay for the heck of it?

Greg Tramel said...

YEAH TPTB, we NEED more half-naked men in all fairness

not that i hang around in bars much these days but i'd make an exception if it was called Absinthia's, there are probably some bars in Houston that serve it, i just don't know about them, i usually go to places based on their beer selections

i really enjoyed this read

...And yet we keep playing it, the puzzle game

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, you misunderstand me, or really, you don't get my tastes. And how could you, doh? I'll admit I'm not like some guys, but I wouldn't care if Kate was doing an Elizabeth Mitchell in GIA, I'd yawn. And if it was a repeat, I'd skip the scene to watch watch Howie Mandel pretend to care about his life. When Tom told Kate she wasn't his type, he was really saying 1/I'm gay and 2/It's women like you that made me gay, dingbat.

As I said though, three women were killed off in S2, Claire's gone now, and I just assumed a lot of women were into Terry O'Quinn and Daniel Dae Kim along with the main dudes. Yea, Sun is cute, and, like Juliet, can convey so many emotions with her facial expressions. Penny, the two Ellies, I'm really talking about those always on Island.

Maybe it's an even race, but I was considering everyone, not just the hotties. I know I'm in the 1% minority, but Evangiline Lilly does nothing for me, and it has nothing to do with her being Kate. The real conundrum is choosing between the two actresses who played the younger Ellies. I'm old enough for that to be a personal crisis.

Now, let's get back to Tunisia and Sumeria. Greg, do you think they have these male/female things on Sirius A?

Capcom said...

LOL. Oh. Then in the immortal words of Emily Litella...."Never miiiiiind!" :o)

I usually totally go for the characters that Terry O'Q plays, but Locke is too whimpy sometimes. I like him when he's Lockadile Dundee, but when he falls apart it gets annoying, like Helen told him.

I'd imagine that there would be those pulp fiction type SciFi ladies (in skimpy space suits with plastic disks on their 1950s-coifed heads) on Sirius, heheh. And military dudes in jumpsuits. All holding giant ray guns of course. Fighting off the BEMs. ;-)

Greg Tramel said...

maybe the women were all on Sirius B, that's why they all had to get to earth ASAP

or maybe the Sirius A guys (sans women) were the Nephilim

Greg Tramel said...

so i'm not the only one thinking the island has a magnetic attraction

lost

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I'm still not refering to the characters on LOST, and I think you as much admitted you are crushing on Terry O'Quinn. Magnetic attraction, right, Greg?

By the way, re: Orion's belt and the pyramids at Giza. I'm gonna give it a try, but what stars/constellations correspond with any part of Tunisia? Wonder if that might explain anything.

Anonymous said...

thanks for your new ideas!!!!

one question

you say that teh tapestry symbolises jacob touching on 9 humans and puts them on course to flight 815..using kate and jack as first examples..

jacobs touch in kate was to put the on the path of 815...so was locke...so was jin and sun..so was sawyer..so was jack?

but hurley and sayid are touched so that they get in the path of ajira 316...for the second coming.

which touch or which influence put sayid and hurley in the oceanic 815 path?

Greg Tramel said...

Tunisia? got me?

it's not really that close to a Vile Vortice, i think the 1 in Africa is near Timbuktu

Vile Vortices

BUT there is a black hole in Tunisia, look at the satellite version at google maps and zoom into Tunisia, if I had to draw the abyss that would be it, it’s a lake but looks more like a deep dark black hole in the ground

Greg Tramel said...

while you’re at google maps zoom into Baghdad, LOTS of WIERD stuff there

Greg Tramel said...

the more i think about it i think our characters are going to “flash-forward” to 2004 for a 2nd go-around and things play out again but with slight variations

maybe this time Claire and Aaron get on the helicopter together

Miles ends up back on “earth”, maybe he hears something different this time on the radio about the 815 right before he does his ghostbusting with the dustbuster

this is the time we see the pictures changed on the stairway, so that part we saw before with him going down the stairs was actually this 2nd go-around

Capcom said...

'Morning Sickies! :-D

Well, I was just refering to TO'Q's characters, because I don't like to say that I like an actor per se, if I don't know anything about the person, but I like the way he looks most of the time too. But TO'Q has mostly played military guys since the 1990s, so that's why I said characters also, cuz I used to be big on military guys. Still am I s'pose. :o)

Yes, it's a stretch to get that northern-most tip of the vortex into Tunisia. Maybe like Big said once I think, the spin of the earth accounts for something in the landing, haha. Interesting about the hole, does the hole look like a meteor crater? I wonder what kinds of ancient ruins are there if any, as well?

Yes, something must have happened to cause that egregious prop difference. The prop person got fired and someone else set up the scene. J/K :-B Seriously, can't wait to find out what that's all about.

Greg Tramel said...

i don't think i would say it looks like meteor crater to me, at least what i envision 1 to look like

when you zoom in pretty close i would call it an abyss but maybe something in the water makes it look so dark & black

Capcom said...

Neat. :-)

Carthage in Tunisia seems pretty interesting history-wise, and that's what Charlotte talked about. Perhaps there's some info to be gleaned there at a closer look. Why TPTB chose it though, I have no clue yet: link

Greg Tramel said...

I suppose this ship on the Carthage wikipedia page looks kinda like the tapestry ships, eye on the ship cracked me up

ship

Capcom said...

Heheh, great minds think alike, I thought the same thing about the ships and the tapestry. X-D That's as close as we've seen anything so far, to resemble those weird diamond-looking sails. Hey, a diamond connection to N&P! j/k

I might spend some time checking out Tunisia today Wayne, but mostly after I take my nephew to see Ice Age soon, so he won't be bored out of his skull over here all day.

Greg Tramel said...

Nice little summary here of all the philosophers and a few scientists name checked on Lost

To be Or Not To Be… Lost That Is The Question.

Capcom said...

BTW, Anon, good point about the difference of the touching times.

Capcom said...

Nice site!

Greg Tramel said...

there may be some clues in Ice Age, the clues are EVERYWHERE, lol

Capcom said...

Heheh, too true.

Greg Tramel said...

Jacob’s Cabin is one the Lostpedia Rewatch Crew

it’s not one i usually read, as mentioned before i mainly read Tubular’s rewatch recaps but maybe i’m prejudiced because she is a local gal

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thinking on it, I would think more of a wobble is involved, if we were to discuss the different cultures, because the Egyptians were on the Island before the Greeks--you following?--yet the Sumerians were there before the E.'s, so it's not like a straight line subtle kind of thing. Unless all this Sumerian stuff is really a lost Tunisian civilization.

Capcom, when Charlotte mentioned Carthage, I assumed she meant Greece, which might be why the producers chose the place to begin with. There has to be a reason why Tunisia is there, not just that it is close to Egypt.

Anon, there's a good chance that Sayid and Hurley were needed for Ajira, not Oceanic, because they had specific duties in 1977. Sayid shot Ben, Hurley convinced Chang. Whatever happened that happened in 1977 (the women & kids leaving, etc) can be cored down to the two of them.

How would Jacob know to get them on the flight, i.e., that they would end up in 1977? I've thought for quite a while that 1977-2007 has been looping through several times now, and that we are simply seeing the most current one. That kinda explains to me the minor continuity errors.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Read up on Carthage just now, and I realize I've been thinking of prfesent day boundaries. There is much to be said about the Phoenician Empire and the Roman Empire is where we get the Latin.

Again, thx for pointing that out, Capcom. I'm still for the earth wobbling, so that the Tunisia exit/entry (?) point was further east, towards Egypt, at some point. Maybe the point has a direction relation to true magnetic north?

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: We'll have to see about the Valenzetti Equation appearing on the show. I personally don't care if they omit the part about the Numbers being its core factors. But I'd be surprised if we don't hear some further mention of Valenzetti besides the Blast Door Map. That's why I suspect we'll visit Ann Arbor at at least once in Season 6. I'll expand on this in another post, but I see two ways it might occur: (1) Desmond will visit U Mich. like he did Oxford, or (2) Ilana and Co. will have flashbacks that connect them with Ann Arbor.

I like your idea of Hurley and Miles tag-teaming with one minor change. I'm on record as being skeptical that Miles can scan the brains of cremated corpses, which rules out him reading Jacob's thoughts. But there's a second dead body that's just as important. I'll bet Miles reveals a part of the truth by sensing that Locke was murdered by Ben.

Greg: I'm not sure there's a one-to-one correspondence between the other figures and characters on the show. The way I see it, the lower levels of the Tapestry represent past stages of Jacob's plan, which culminates in what we're seeing now (i.e., his nine chosen ones save the world). If you look at the lowest level, you can see some Egyptian ships either coming or going from the Island. Like Jacob says, "it takes a long time when you're making the thread..."

Capcom: Good call re Clarke -- my list of influences was hardly exhaustive. I'll be very, very curious to see Ilana's flashback. I think she's too young for her burns to be from Chernobyl. I wonder if she was injured in some act of terrorism or torture, perhaps related to the Chechen conflict. Either possibility would set up an interesting contrast to Sayid. I dig the symbolism of the Phoenix, but I personally think a Jacob rebirth would be a kind of a cop out. Dead is dead!

You ask an interesting question about whether one would trade the world for the Island. I personally would consider it, but only if I could have Hurley as my chef!

Jane: Suture sounds like great film, but I don't see the connection to Lost, unless you count Ilana's face bandage. Can you elaborate, preferably in prose?

Pedro: Very interesting speculation that Ilana's flashback is actually a flashforward! Did anyone see her hands? I would expect them to be badly burned as well, if that's the case. That said, I think it makes more sense if Ilana has no scars because Jacob healed her...

Anonymous: To clarify, Jacob's "pushes" aren't necessarily about getting characters on Oceanic 815 specifically. It's more him personally course correcting for any weak points generally in his reweaving of destiny. If it helps, think of it as a two-step process. Jacob reweaves fate, putting certain characters on course to be passengers on Oceanic 815, but Kate needs an extra push. Similarly, Jacob alters destiny to put certain characters on course to be passengers on Ajira 316, but Sayid needs an extra push.

The implication is that Jacob must do himself what the universe would do for him if he weren't reweaving fate.

Greg Tramel said...

ah, guess i was reading the tapestry top to bottom since we saw Jacob making it from top to bottom but i'll have to ponder it reading bottom to top

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i'm finally getting around to pondering your 1977-2007 loop idea

so, is it our same characters stuck in the reoccurring loops? so they don’t remember anything about the previous loops they’ve been through??

Greg Tramel said...

i enjoyed this quick read

“What if Jacob has been pulling the longest con of all on Not!Locke [MiB]?”

Lost Rewatch: Confidence Man

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, you are pretty close on this "long con" thing. It involves the project and best be left to be for now. I thought long con as soon as we saw J/MIB/the BR and Tarawet. The episode with Cassidy and Sawyer was called "The Long Con."

Greg, I don't know how the 1977-2007 loop works, I'm guessing it's like a skipping record. I guess to me the course corrections must start in 1974-1977 (because of everyone's age). We are seeing the latest attempt, no one one recalls the previous loop, but each time a minor thing occurs to screw it up. So at one point, say, Jacob has to nudge Kate along by touching her nose and making her giggle, instead of simply paying for the lunchbox. Little changes. Maybe he didn't screw with Ben during one loop, or he touched Jack in some other way than with the candy bar. Like playing chess but starting with the same moves, then restarting with almost the same moves, but the game ends the same either way.

Big, one of the reasons I think J and MIB know past/present/future (or a fair guess thereof) is because the tapestry was made from the top down. Next to missing Tarawet is Smokey's drain. What are your thoughts re: my riff on Tunisia? Capcom's mentioning Carthage is a good direction to look.

I do agree they have to have an Ann Arbor episode, maybe a Radzinsky-flashback, which could give us 70s, 80s, 90s on the Island, plus who the smart man was who built the Lamp Post. Actually, any explanation of the Lamp Post will likely include the reason for the Tunisian exit point. (I still think it was an entry point before some pole shift.)

Of course, my replies might change after the next course corr--

Hey, everyone. First time here. Bigmouth, this is a fantastic bl--

I am Spartacus.

Capcom said...

Nice points all.

Well, I just mentioned A.C.Clarke, since he wrote the story for 2001, don't want him to be forgotten. :-)

Yes, we deserve after all this time, to meet the brains of the DI from Ann Arbor, the DeGroots.

Greg Tramel said...

i guess the issue i have with the reoccuring loops idea is if they are always in their present they would age each subsequent loop, i think

Greg Tramel said...

that being said, i am thinking our characters will end up in another 2004 iteration BUT they will remember everything from the previous times they went through between 3000 BC (i'm saying this is when Locked fixed the FDW and maybe when Sawyer et all saw Tarawet) - 2008

Greg Tramel said...

to clarify, i'm thinking BOTH the 1977ers and the 2007ers land at 2004 right after the crash but with all memories intact

Capcom said...

Speaking of loops and aging, it makes me wonder again about what Ben meant when he asked Richard, "You remember what birthdays are, don't you?" Sure, it could mean that he's just so dang old that he gave up on celebrating Bdays as redundant, but perhaps it means more. For instance, if you keep living in loops, you never age, and maybe you don't pass your birthday so often (depending on when your'e looping I suppose). I'm not really married to that theory, it's just a brain-burp.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And here I was hoping to get a laugh from my Spartacus joke. I was riffing on what I told Greg, that its a skipping record, no memories of past skips. Its all theory anyways, so I can't say who can be correct on this, particularly if, say, the loop has only happened twice, not fifteen times. Adding to that, what if it did happen once, and the second time was when the Ajira flight was added to the loop? Again, how can we know? I did read a story years ago where two guys are talking re: their time travels, one guy had no memory and kept screwing up, the other kept all his memories and told the other guy how he corrected the paradoxes.

Full moon tomorrow night. Just sayin.

Anonymous said...

thansk for your clarifications....but still i cant work my head around the fact that all these losties were some how put on the first plane...someof them we see were put on that path very early in their lives when jacob touched them...others were touched later..

but hurley and sayid are very important for the first 815 crash...hurley with the numbers sayid finds danielle, the signals the maps, the soldier...

what would also like to ask is ......what do greek writtings have to do in an egyptian tapestry....it reminds me of the movie troy where the war lasted 1o days and in reality it lasted 10 years...lol...could it be a mistake form writers or as some of you suggest, it indicates that the island was used by suemrians--egyptians then greeks etc etc and all of them together formed the GREAT PLAN. and if its mythology goes so far back...then jacob and mib are rookies...

i consider this site too deep...and some of the philosophical and parascience elements totally escape me.i was reading the post about existentialism and post modernism and i just stopped cause i felt my brain cells getting fried

has the originator and holder of this site seen a dcumentary "what the bleep do we know" i saw it and i found it heavily related ..and i was wondering if a higher mind could also see the relation..

the difference on one;s perception and the ability to take hold of one;s destiny by understandning throuigh quantum physics how the universe works....proper mad stuff...

help..!

regards
gg13

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, i laughed, ask my coworkers

Capcom said...

Oops, I laughed, honest! Just ask...meh, I'm here basically alone, even my cat is dead. :-\

That sounds like an interesting timeloop story Wayne. On a similar subject, I recently saw the trailer for "The Time Traveler's Wife", and it looks promising. I haven't read the book, so for me it won't be an issue of whether or not it accurately portrays the original written story. That normally bothers me in most cases, but for exceptions like "Flight of the Intruder", "Contact", and "Gormenghast", where the movie made a lot more sense to me than the book.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

gg13, this is a very deep blog, but you needn't crack your head here. When Big first posted on the postmodernism vs. existensialism, I avoided that like the plague for a few days. And there are a fair amount of regulars who don't post off-season.

In the bigger picture, I would think that Hurley and Sayid are more important to the 1977 saga than the 2004 saga. Hurley had the Numbers and Sayid met Danielle, but this was, in retrospect, adding mystery to those early episodes in S1. When I post here, I'm playing devil's advocate a lot, I'm not necessarily believing my post is correct, just tossing it out there.

As Bigmouth said, one flashback episode to Ann Arbor would give us quite a bit of info, and I think that a Widmore/Eloise flashback would do the same. If the AA flashback is told from Radzinsky's POV, we can get info from 1970 un up through the 80s and 90s.

These later entries are hard to wrap around, you might enjoy picking and choosing from earlier seasons. Nothing against other blogs, but quite a few of them are visited by fans who really don't follow the show as much as needed, which is perfectly fine. If you go to different blogs, this might be a nice change, save it for late at night.

Re: Jacob's pushes, though, that really is up in the air because we've only had one episode to play with here. I'm sure I speak for everyone, as well as Bigmouth, that you are welcome to join in and offer your own ideas.

Capcom, the reason I didn't (and will not) mention the author or the story title I mentioned above is because when I finally met the guy at a convention in RI, and told him how incredible the novelete size story was, he told he was stoned on LSD when he wrote it. That kinda blew it for me there. Still in all, a story worthy of PK Dick. I am looking forward to THE TIME TRAVELER'S WIFE.

Back to gg13, I think we all still wrap our minds around certain things here. One way of thinking about Sayid and Hurley is that they were nudged to go along (as Jack might have been, I don't know) long after the original Oceanic journey. It might have been some odd coincidence that H and S were on Flight 815, and returned home, but Jacob touched them much later, even decades, after the others, so that's why I think he was making a last ditch effort to get them (eventually) on Ajira, or some other flight that would ensure their return to the Island.

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

BAD typos sorry

yeah, we’re real deep talking about who’s the cutest

like Wayne said we really only have the 1 episode with Jacob touches so we have no idea if Jacob may have touched Hurley and Sayid also before 815 or for that matter we don’t have concrete evidence it was not MiB channeling Jacob doing the toughing (kinda doubt it but it is a possibility)

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne don't you think PK Dick did his fair share of LSD? i mean i have NO idea, just speculating

Greg Tramel said...

And YES gg13, ALL ideas are welcome

Greg Tramel said...

i wonder how much Ms Hawking knows about Jacob & MiB and wonder if she had any part it letting Jacob know who had to be on the 316 and or visa versa

i guess we an assume she communicated with Jacob on island but i wonder if Jacob has communicated with her off island

Greg Tramel said...

gg13, if the island does have Sumerian history i'm thinking Jacob and MiB go back as far as well

oh and sorry about the postmodernism stuff, Big, i STILL need to read that book

Greg Tramel said...

read his interesting idea somewhere: as Juliet was pounding Jughead on the rocks somebody turned the FDW

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Are you familiar with the Star Trek: TNG episode titled Cause and Effect? That gives a pretty nifty illustration of how time loops involving the same people might play out. I personally don't believe there are multiple iterations of events in the time loop sense. My suspicion is that, over the centuries, the same basic sequence of events has played out many times on the Island but with different players each time. More like a haunting than Star Trek.

I think you're right, though, that Jacob and the MIB are not enslaved by time and space. They can clearly move along the timeline, but there may be a limit to how much they know. For example, Casual Christian seemed to get the idea for the compass loop from Locke himself, implying that CC doesn't have total knowledge of the future.

Greg: Are you a Texan? Therese (who writes the Tubular blog) is an old friend from the interwebs. See my comment above to Wayne about time loops. I'm skeptical that's what's happening, but if it is, I don't see physical aging as a problem. Presumably, as in the Star Trek: TNG episode I cited, they would revert each time back to their physical form at the start of the loop. Richard's comment about the compass being a little rusty is a problem. But it's possible the compass "reset" to its new state when Locke flashed back in time.

gg13: No worries -- think about it like this. You're writing an essay about how everyone ended up on Oceanic 815. After finishing, you proofread what you've written and realize there's a problem -- the part about Kate doesn't make sense. Maybe you made some grammar or spelling errors, or maybe your handwriting is just illegible. So you go back and edit that section so Kate ends up on Oceanic 815 along with everyone else.

That edit is the equivalent of Jacob's push. No one else needs a push to get them on Oceanic 815 because their sentences already make sense in that regard. But there are other essays on different topics -- e.g., how everyone ended up on Ajira 316. After writing that essay, you realize the part about Sayid doesn't make sense. So you edit that portion, giving Sayid a "push" so he ends up on Ajira 316 with everyone else.

My impression of What the Bleep Do We Know?! is mixed. There's a decent introduction to quantum mechanics, but it's hard to tell where the science ends and the pseudo-science begins. That's a distinction I try to keep clear in my own posts. If you're looking for a great introduction to quantum physics, I highly recommend Brian Greene's series the Elegant Universe. My favorite chapter is the one on the Quantum Cafe, which strikes me as a great metaphor for the Island. Another good source for understanding the relationship between physics and determinism is this short excerpt from Waking Life.

Bigmouth said...

Greg: That's a VERY interesting suggestion! Is that how Eloise ended up off the Island? My main problem is that Richard claimed that he saw them all die, which implies to me they detonated the bomb.

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom, i think Richard is SO old and never ages so birthdays are meaningless for him

instead of loops i see our characters following 1 long straight thread with only 1 beginning and 1 end and with no loops

they’re always in their present and continually moving towards their future no matter what year they are in

so if our losties go to 2004 it is not really a loop back but just further along forward on their thread

so for our characters on island 1977 happened in their future after their past in 2008

Greg Tramel said...

i didn't come up of the idea, just thought it was interesting

yes, they implied it was Eloise that turned the FDW to end up off island still preggers with Daniel

Greg Tramel said...

yes Richard saying he saw them all die has me stumped, since he was at foot i’m not sure what he could have seen, i was kinda thinking he meant he saw all the DI die in the purge

Greg Tramel said...

yes i'm in Houston with Theresa Tubular but i don't know her

i really enjoy the way she writes and read her TV blog she does for our local paper all the time

Greg Tramel said...

i think the compass aged just like everybody else (except of course Richard)

for instance Sawyer was 3 years older in 1977 than he was in 2007 (when they were in the outrigger getting shot at by i presume Ilana & Co.)

Capcom said...

Wow, I really like the idea that someone turned the FDW to make the flash happen, then everyone jumps and can be saved from the incident/bomb, YAY! :-D Eloise doing it is an especially interesting aspect for her and Dannyboy. So then she dedicates herself and her son off-island to helping to fix that problem.

As for 'Cause And Effect', "Crusher feels that if La Forge is correct, then the voices that she heard may be 'echoes' from previous loops" -- there ya go, there's our whispers. And, "Worf suggests that they reverse course to avoid the disaster, but Riker points out that reversing course could be what causes the disaster" -- Jack vs. Miles on setting off the bomb. There is lots more, that summary is good Lost reading.

I agree Big, elegant Universe is the way to go.

LOL GG13, I have to agree about the heady stuff. But a little force-feeding of the mind on a regular basis can be a good thing, and this is one of the best places to do that. I've learned so much by chatting with you all about the para-elememts of Lost, be they official ones, or the ones that we make up ourselves, heheh. :-)

RA seeing them die has had me confused as well GT.

LOL about the writer of that story Wayne.

Do we know for sure that they aged 3 years in that time GT? Only the Shadow knows. :o)

Synchromystic Librarian said...

i AM the shadow

ok, maybe just Greg's

Capcom said...

Touche, heheh.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I know for a fact PKD did upwards of 50 reds a day at times. Just saying, its a shock to meet someone my own age copping to that. Poe had his cognac, but I like to think a fair amount of sci-fi/horror/whatever writers write just fine w/o being hopped up on the jitter juice or the Alice in Wonderland cookies.

Bigmouth, I kinda recall C&E, and Capcom helped me remember it completely. (Funny how ST:TOS AND TNG are, you think you don't know an episode and then BAMMO!)

Greg, who said Ellie moved the FDW? (Is there a link?) Would this mean that was the first jump, because I can't imagine a pregnant Eloise would knowingly end up in Tunisia. Though, I'd guess she couldn't take the sub because of the pregnancy, either. I'm getting what you mean, though, Ellie 1977 said eff it all, kinda figuring Jack would goof it up, or that she wanted her baby to at least have a chance of living, and left the Island. Maybe no one knew the exit point was in Tunisia, maybe the last time anyone moved the FDW, they were taken to Giza or at least right near a rescue scenario.

Been thinking on Richard telling the gang that he watched them die. Didn't he say that to Locke then we found out Dark Locke told Richard to tell that to Locke Lite? And Richard wasn't anywhere near the Swan, so how could he watch them die? I think this could be one thing that goes with my belief that 1977 changed 2007, unless Richard meant "see" to be figurative. What if on the tapestry, it's Jughead/the whiteout touching six people, and that Richard meant he saw them die because he saw the tapestry? I don't really buy that, but then again, Jacob could have rewoven that tapestry at the top again. And again.

And Big, that was a great anaology, the essays and the erasures. Which is what kinda sorta made me think of the tapestry being trashed and rewoven.

I knew Greg was in Houston because of his extensive blog profile, and way back when I mentioned the LOST support group/reunion, I really thought a Midwest thing would work (sorry, L.A. Big). Years back, almost all the writing conventions, at least two big ones each year, were in Nashville, Chicago, Omaha, Dallas. Nowadays, you see either West Coast locales (and writers) or the reverse, more from everyone not having cross-country cabbage to spare. I'd be suggesting the Midwest even if I didn't live in what amounts to Midway City.

Big, I agree that they conflicts in the past may have mirrored the present, but I'm still being Siskel to your Ebert (or vice versa) in that there are so many loops on the show, 1977-2007 just begs to be another one.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

True on the aging, Capcom. Then again, did anyone age after 815 crashed? How could anyone know they missed four months? Kinda like September in Chicago, where did the summer go?

Greg Tramel said...

i watched a Hoagland video last night, i know i know, I can't quite shake the Sirius (no pun intended) stuff, actually he's a little too heavy into Mars and 2012 for my tastes but enjoyable nonetheless

Wayne, there’s some shifting pole stuff here


Richar Hoagland video

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Gah. And Greg, I'm not bashing PKD w/o knowing, my writing career started about three years after his death (1982), but back in the day, I knew a great many writers (some now also dead) who knew PKD personally as well as knew him at the conventions. So I'm not meaning to sound like I'm talking trash.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, where are you finding the Hoagland vids? Can I just Google them up?

Greg Tramel said...

the 1 i watched last night was linked to a Sirius Cult blog i read off and on but you should be able to google them

Greg Tramel said...

i just assumed PK Dick (and Poe with opium for that matter) did some kind of drugs but i don't know for sure and they could easily be myths

doesn’t really matter to me and didn't mean to imply at all that strange interesting writing REQUIRES drugs

anyway speaking of strange interesting writing this kinda ties HP Lovecraft in with Sirius, I haven’t read the whole thing (MUCHO LOOONG) but skimming it I see some of our topics come up such as twins, Sumeria, light/dark, Greek …

Sirius in Dualist Thought

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, et al, sorry, i don't remember where i read the theory tat Ellie turned the FDW, i might have dreamed it, no really i think it was just a comment somebody made to a blog post but there wasn't anymore to it than maybe Ellie turned the FWD right before the whiteout at the end of season 5

I just added the part that maybe anybody (not only Ellie) could have turned the FDW

btw, I find both on island Ellies attactive, it would be a dilemma if I had to choose

Capcom said...

It is funny about those old ST eps, isn't it Wayne!

Erm, I'll "cop to it", in my insecure youth in central CA at the peak of the Height-Ashbury hippie B.S. Ahem. But I don't condone or recommend it. That's why I have a dislike for those DeGroot hippie charlatans. Man, 50 reds a day? How could he stay awake?!

It's probably for sure that the DI didn't know that the polar bear would end up in Tunisia, or perhaps someone would have been there to greet/save it in the desert. I do wonder if the Islanders knew about the vortex spots though.

Going to have to skim that Sirius link also.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, here’s a headline for u

Sharp Woman: Evangeline Lilly

Greg Tramel said...

i've done a little of this and a little of that and probably too much of some things; when i lived in Austin you almost just got contact highs walking down the street, it really is like Waking Life sometimes

i'm ok with the De Groot hippies as far as the little we know about them; i didn't participate in TLE which i think gave them more backstory or was it just more on Hanso

i do hope we get to meet the DeGroots but i'm not holding my breath for an Ann Arbor flashback even though I thought FOR SURE we would get one in Season 5

like the broken record that i am I keep requesting PLEASE MORE ISLAND BACKSTORIES, i'm assuming the DeGroots have been to the island at least once

Greg Tramel said...

i'm actually thinking ALL of season 6 will be on island, i just hope they go back some at least to beginnings of the Others such as say something as simple as 1930s or so

more on the 1840s would be nice

BC (if there was a BC on the island) would be GREAT but i kinda doubt it

Greg Tramel said...

Warehouse 13 stats tonite on the new SyFy, could be interesting

Should You Enter Warehouse 13? Why Not!?

Capcom said...

Speaking of Dogon, I'm sure that you've seen this old Lost site, GT: link

Speaking of E.L. in scanty clothing shots, she says that she's shy, modest, and spiritual, but keeps posing for provacative shots. Oh well, I guess that's more of a comment for Deciever.com. :o)

Yeah, I shouldn't be so hard on the DeGroots, but they just remind me so much of Timothy Leary. We did get a "feel" for what they were into in TLE, you're right. It all felt kind of psyhcobabblish and shady experiments. Unfortunately they were not concentrated on as much as the Hanso CEOs and Mittlewerk were. I should try to think of the DeGroots as older versions of Daniel. I want to see them in S6 as well!

Yes! Looking forward to the new X-Files, I mean, Warehouse 13 series! I hope that it's good. Eureka starts back up this Friday as well, I really like that one a lot.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I was saying that I KNEW about PK Dick, and was not making assumptions (hell, Poe died of alcoholism, that's public record), so what I meant was, I wouldn't say bad things about someone without backing. You guys! I smoked pot once in the 80s because it was free, did nothing for me. Only contact highs here are from Marlboros. Guess my vice is coffee. And ice cream.

Didn't even click the Lilly link on, but I'll check out the other links, thx. I've mentioned HP Lovecraft before, most recently when you posted the link to the star map/Egypt map. Aldeberan is just below Orion and most of the Old Ones (including Cthulhu and his now-sunken Pacific island, R'yleh) came down from Aldeberan.

Capcom, I'm of the belief that there is only one exit point, and it moves over time. It could be that when the Island moves, the new location matches up with a vortice, but if the Island is constantly moving, it seems that the exit point would move all over the place, and we are 3 for 3 (thx on reminding me about the bear) with Tunisia.

Regardless of where you read it, Greg, Ellie and the FDW seems a good idea.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I'll skip reading that review on W 13 on the basis of who wrote it, this goes back to the "mutual friend" Capcom and I are aware of. I can speak ill of this guy, considering it is one of two he uses to cash in on LOST and people who want to pony money up to him because of his cons. But I will look up W 13 elsewhere, it looks intriguing.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Two names that are not his real name, is what I meant.

Capcom said...

Speaking of TLE, here is copy site of the first Hanso site with only the projects listed. If you click on Active Projects, and then swish the curser below the last project name (where it looks like there is nothing) it brings up a link to the Swan Orientation vid. link

Then here is the psych test like Rm23 followed by questions about where the DI disappeared to, plus the freaky Hanso hummmmm. link

I went to the mirror site of the later Hanso site, but it's not there anymore. You could go thru the entire thing (i.e., click on the clickables that were there for the clues and background stories), but it's gone. :-(

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Once we got to talking TLE awhile back, Capcom, I went back to a few of those links, and some I had listed in GETTING LOST, and found the dead one. There's a few more, but none directly related to the ARG. I wonder if, by no longer keeping a link active, that it means anything from that link is over and done.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, cool link, and I'd read up on the Cythulhu Mythos if I were you. Just sayin.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, i'm aware of the Cythulhu Mythos and remembered u mentioned Lovecraft before

i'm not sure about this Warehouse 13 show, i'll give it a few shows but so far it is so so, i watched Eureka years ago when it 1st started but did not keep up with, maybe i'll get the DVDs

Capcom said...

Yeah, I don't know Wayne. The couple of links to mirror sites that I had bookmarked were done by fans to preserve it in case the main one went away (which it did soon, via the end-of-game changes to it). I guess that they don't have those sites anymore. :-(

It looks like the main dude in W-13 has a steampunk keyboard on his computer. link In fact he's had a number of steampunk accouterments so far...I'm digginitt! :-D

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, some of the devices like the computer and video phones are kinda cool and i like his character not sure about the other 2 yet

Greg Tramel said...

their no fox and mulder but i'll give it a chance

btw, star trek references are lost on me, i never watched it much (i know sacrilegious again)

Greg Tramel said...

all the cookies reminds me yeah wayne i fall on and off the ice cream wagon ALL the time, that's a hard 1 to kick for me at least especially here when it 105 for weeks in a row

Greg Tramel said...

but back to Lost

seeing the TLE (quite a bit on Loatpedia) stuff reminded me i ran across this the other day but have not gotten very far into what it is

lost interactivelands

Capcom said...

To copy Homer Simpson, "Mmmmmmm, ice cream, gurglegurglegurgle."

Heheh, that's my stock line for when someone asks me about Olivia on Fringe...well, she's no Scully. :-) W-13 reminded me of that "Friday the 13th" TV series in the '80s which I thought was pretty good. They had that curiosity shop with (mostly) demonic artifacts that had to be retrieved and put back into safe keeping. The W-13 premier was good, can't wait to see what weird things they come up with. And the characters aren't completely annoying, haha. Hope that they get even more steampunk gear, I like that look.

More OT, you should really check out the original Star Trek series GT, the stories were mostly all by the top-o-the-line SciFi writers of the day, and were "morality plays" for the most part, like "The Twilight Zone" was. They most all had some kind of underlying profound message to convey. On the surface it looked like lots of fun, and under the surface was very intellectual.

OK, no time to think up something Lost related to say, gotta get to the Girl Scout library/museum. I got my official title a couple weeks ago...assistant librarian! Neat! :-D

I can't get that Lost interactive thing to work for me, but I'll play around with it after I get back from GSA-HQ. Have a good day everyone!

Anonymous said...

thanks every1...especially the one who said the things about the essays...but still..even that is the case...it gives the freedom to the writers to have no constants and only variables.....

also all these e/m theories and timetravela ndblack swans...are all nice ...but what substantiated background have the writers provided within the show so as to expect the viewing public to grasp thses concepts..

i mean that if i didnt have the internet..to learn about the hanso mythology and if it werent for people like this guy here writting this super stuff....i would have deserted the show long time ago...curiocity is what keeps the majority of fans i think...curiocity to see how they will tie EVERYTHING that is shown. not our fault they showed stuff that perhaps were not necessary or they didnt know at the time writting them how they would use them.......this thing theyve been showing us 6 years now must start having a beginning a middle and an end.

in essence...what is required by writers/producers..is not a simple.."äh they were time travelling and looping you see" but a definite thourough 100 % outlined explanation of what the hell are those whispers for instance? how is it possible for whispers from different timelines to exist? wtf? dharma food drops? what ?how? who? how did they built their stations..hwo did they bring equipment...did they send everyting with a sub? do they expect us to believe this?

to do that they probably need 10 more seasons....but its not the public's fault..they chose to throw all those elements to lure us in and cant tie them in a satisfactory manner now.

another thing..........they killed locke and have been using the same actor pretending to be someone else..................i mean wtf? how do you substantiate something like that? with a simple "oh i found my loophole" line? thats not right imo...


regs
gg13

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, the steampunk styling was the star of Warehouse 13, the characters started to grow on me by the end of the show, some was a little hokey but i’ll watch this season at least

anon, for us the puzzles, ambiguities and searching for answers on the internet is a big part of the show, it’s groundbreaking in that sense for those that want more there are rabbit holes galore to fall into

like i've said before were not going to get EVERY answer, sometimes we have to take a leap of faith and go with a idea without definitive concrete evidence

we’ll be here to pick it apart and feel free to pick apart any of our crazy notions

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

gg13, the show is more than time travel, its the human relationships, don't forget. I'll be the first to agree (and have said in the past) that I didn't appreciate the ARGs because I know several older people who have never used a computer. LOST dropped the ball on not having a book come out with all Internet-related stuff printed out, maybe even a few pages on Faraday's notebook, etc. HEROES did this after the first two seasons, compiling everything about the show from NBC.com. JJ Abrams is young and thinks its all about this generation and the give it to me now aspect of life. But a lot of viewers are indeed out of the loop now, a book would NOT have been expensive to put out, in fact, the HEROES volumes (there are two now) were in hardcover, then trade. So, yea, the reason you don't see more frustrated people is that those individuals are likely never on a computer past being at work or having a simple email account.

Re: your thoughts on the time loops, even though most of it is "made up," I've never had reason to call b.s. on any of it, i.e., nothing has been pulled out of thin air as an explanation. We'll get an explanation for the whispers, if we don't at least through discussion we can have our own conclusions. You may not get it the same way I don't get it, but its through the blog that we bounce ideas around. I'm in Chicago and, as big a city this is, I know nobody to discuss this show with.

Re: Locke, you maybe missed out on some posts. If the Ajira plane went back in time a few months, that meant dead Locke went back to when there was a live Locke. (Say I died today but someone took my corpse back to yesterday.) This MIB guy inhabited dead Locke, seems that he can only inhabit dead people, or as Bigmouth says, kind of makes copies of them. So Richard and the Others were more trusting of the fake Locke because they had no reason to believe he was fake. If you look up time travel paradox on Wikipedia, you'll see variations on the type of situations that might occur.

So, going back to what you stated at the beginning, the producers don't think we can get this show on our own, this has been the first high concept show ever, and I'm always grumbling about the ARGs, the mobisodes on cell phones, to me, a lot of crap that could have easily been in a print book, but then, we live in a world where no one is buying books anymore. The plus side of that is that at least we can knock all this stuff back and forth via the, as I call it, ubernet. I even watch every episode twice before I can grasp some of what I saw the first time.

This is Bigmouth's blog, but I'm sure he'll say the same thing. Ask anything, Big can even link you back to an earlier entry of his or Capcom can do the same with her blog. No one gets chased away for asking too many questions or for not agreeing with the majority. If you have a theory of your own, toss it out. We love that.

Greg Tramel said...

we especially enjoy as Big calls them whackadoo theories, bring em on

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Indeed, Greg. Still 105 there? Its 60 and raining here (90 on Friday). Means I get to stay in and write instead of goofing around outside. I had an EW email earlier, if you don't get these, email me, I'll fwd it.

By the way, on the subject of imbibement, I don't drink or smoke pot because of my cereberal palsy. My right side is useless, so imagine me trying to walk a straight line if I was under the influence, ha. (I'm going kayaking tomorrow, I hate most the fact that I can lift weights and jog and paddle yet its all about the fine motor function. I can barely type with one finger and my right side reacts maybe two seconds off if I REALLY need to move.)

I'm low on anything new mythos- wise. Speaking of mythoses (new word?), its a big read, but Lovecraft's AT THE MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS is pretty wild. THE COLOUR OUT OF SPACE, as well, the latter you'll find with other short(ish) fiction. I bought my first copy through the Weekly Reader in grade school.

Capcom said...

Your points are very valid and shared, GG13. And I don't think that without the internet, that TPTB could have made Lost in such an abstract manner, that depends so heavily on audience interaction for really understanding the finer details and the absurdly nonlinear story structure. I really don't know what it would be like to watch Lost, without all the extra-outside-TV interaction and info. If I can judge the people that I know whose involvement in Lost is purely the weekly airing, it has much less depth and meaning, and is just another oddball TV show to them. Over at the TLC blog, someone quoted a new interview with Damon and Carleton as saying, "We feel that the final part of the experience of Lost is that you have this time between to theorise, postulate, agonise." That about sums it up. :-o

Wayne, I was really disappointed that they haven't had anything in the DVDs about the ARGS as well. It couldn't be that difficult to do a sweeping narrative of the plot of the game, showing the website and clues and such in a typical presentation form. Corporate presentations like that are easily done. That was really a letdown, I would have liked to have that for posterity. And like you say, some printed material would have been fantastic as well. Better than Bad Twin, puh.

I don't really have anyone to discuss Lost with on the level that we do here either, so I really appreciate having you all here. My brother is into the XFiles and Lost type of entertainment and he asks me a lot of questions about Lost and what I've learned online, but he doesn't have the time to get into it as much as I have with you all. Lucky me! :o)

I'm convinced that if the current degree of internet capabilities had been around for the X-Files, that it would have been just as intensely utilized and networked as Lost is/has. Back then, all we had to work with was Usenet, which was text only, so fans were extremely limited as to networking, and TPTB didn't have the resources to make online games and such like what we have now. Hard to believe, it was only 10 years ago. The arcing mythology and stand-alone stories of the Files were very deep and comlpicated, and perhaps even the ending might have been a lot more satisfying if TPTB had done something online to give viewers more to chew on than, the world is gonna end in 2012. All the many X-Files mythology and episode books that were published during the show's run helped fuel the fan-fire, but if they had this internet back then, wow. :-p

So if you do get stuck GG13, as Wayne and GT say, please come back and ask questions and help us work out the problems together! It's fun! :-D

Those sound like good books Wayne. have fun kayaking!

Capcom said...

And P.S. GG13, give yourself a lot of credit for even trying to understand all this whackadoo stuff. If you enjoy Lost, stick with it. :-D

Greg Tramel said...

it cooled off to 101 today

wayne, it's been awhile since i read any Lovecraft, i'm due for a refresher so thanks for the suggestions

i did see this blurb Doc Jensen/EW wrote today if tha't what your talking about, not much to it

The Last Season of 'Lost': 'Anything goes.'

Greg Tramel said...

actually i know a few people that JUST watch the show and really enjoy it, they get tired of my postulating

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Good point, Greg. Those I mentioned w/o computer access enjoy the show just fine, though I'll admit some were lost by the time travel stuff. Yet, they still like the romance and humor angles.
Right, that was the EW article, and yep, little to it. Ah, well.

Capcom, I wasn't think a better version of BAD TWIN as an example; more like an ARG version of LOST magazine. A few stills from the Sri Lanka video with text underneath. A timeline. That's why I'm all over Abrams and his "no one reads a book anymore" attitude. Of course, I'm biased, being a writer who is seeing the entire market shrinking, or so my agent tells me.

I don't know that X-FILES as it was would have been poured over if there was an ubernet back then, rather I think X-FILES would have been very different, there would have been many more episodes dealing with the mythology aspects, and in the end, the show wouldn't have crashed and burned.

Greg, believe it or not, its now 57 degrees. Maybe I'll start looking into getting a job teaching English on Papau New Guinea.

And it seems like we are all in agreement, gg13, and please invite some others over. I'm sure you'll find nobody condescending here.

Capcom said...

The people that I know that just watch Lost on TV only, just have a passing interest in it, weird.

I also believe that the X-Files could have ended better had there been this much internet-crossover-media around then. And trust me, uber-X-fans would have gone crazy over it, they poured over every detail and compared notes even outside of Usenet coverage. TPTB could also have tied in the Lone Gunmen and their computer work, which could have been an ARG world unto itself.

I know, but *I* was thinking of something better to read than Bad Twin. :o)

Did you all hear that Brian K. Vaughan quit Lost?

It snowed in Yonkers, NY today, or somwhere in that vicinity.

Bigmouth said...

Sunny and 70 degrees in Santa Monica...

OK, I'm still intrigued by this suggestion that Eloise moved the Island, but it makes less sense to me the more I think about it. My main problem is still Richard's comment that he saw Jack and Co. die in 1977. Since Ricardo wasn't at the Swan site, I interpret him to mean he saw the bomb detonate and assumed the worst.

Second and relatedly, I'm confused what Eloise's motivation would be for such a drastic act. Locke (actually Ben) did so as a last resort because the Island was being invaded. I suppose the Swan anomaly was a threat. But I fail to see how turning the Wheel would save them -- wouldn't the anomaly move with the Island?

Third and finally, I'm skeptical that Eloise would turn the Wheel while pregnant. Or rather, I'm skeptical someone like Charles wouldn't insist upon doing so instead. Working with a nuke is one thing, but sending her and the baby -- the child of two chosen ones -- to their possible deaths in the Tunisian desert? That seems a stretch to me...

Besides, I have this sneaking suspicion that Ben tricked Eloise into turning the Wheel some time later. When Charles first raised Ben's trickery to Locke, I assumed that Widmore himself was the victim. But we now know Ben usurped Charles by more conventional means. Since Eloise is the only other leader we've met, she strikes me as a likely candidate.

PS: Eye M afraid gg13 has the Sickness...muhahahahahahahahah!

Capcom said...

I like the idea too Big. I forget what RA said to Eloise in the cave/grotto, but Widmore was pretty upset about her "condition" and being involved in the inevitable skirmish. So maybe she left via the FDW in an attempt to get off the island -- it was kind of a 50/50 risk either way maybe (stay and die or go and die). Was she there at the dock to see Wid off when he was exiled? If not, she may have already been gone. ???

But of course all kinds of contradictions arise just thinking about all that, as you say. :-p

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I kinda know why Vaughan quit LOST. But they'll likely address it at the SD Comic-Con.

Big, that's what I was saying, Ellie's pregnant. It still stands to reason that she left the Island before Widmore because of the baby death thing (or BDT, to use the medical term).

And, kinda kiddingly, do we really believe anything Richard says anymore? He's as addled as Kate. I agree he might've known something happened at the Swan site, but why say "I saw you die"? Unless we are dealing with a shifting reality thing.

70 is nice, Big. Got down to 54 now (its 11:50 PM) but we'll see 90s by Friday. That's why people here are schizo.

Capcom, I agree how cool the Lone Gunmen let loose on the intrawebs would have been. Re: BAD TWIN, anyone ever read those three or four other LOST paperbacks? The fiction ones?

Kayaking in 8 hours, I'd watch CNN, gang. I'm wearing the Riddler costume, so I can be seen by air.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oh, re: Ellie. The point Greg or Capcom made was, if that is Faraday in her belly, she might have figured it was her only shot at getting off Island so Dan could be born. She evidently knew she'd make it OK, because obviously Dan was there in 1977...

Capcom said...

That's what I was guessing about Ellie Wayne.

You mean you'll be wearing a skintight green spandex suit with question marks on it?! X-D

I never read the Lost books. Were they written by anyone interesting?

Capcom said...

P.S. I assumed that BKV left to work on his own projects that have been mentioned possibly coming up for the past year. Nice for him if it's covered/announced at CC. :-)

Bigmouth said...

So Eloise turned the wheel to escape from the anomaly and/or nuclear explosion? Interesting...but I still have some questions.

First, why wouldn't Eloise just leave on a boat like Michael and Walt? I haven't seen any indication that the Others' leaders are physically trapped on the Island. If anything, the experience of Charles and Ben suggests otherwise. The idea that the Wheel is Ellie's only means of exit would come a little out of the blue for me.

Second, if the nuke were Eloise's concern, why would she and Richard assist our Losties in the first place? If anything, Richard and Eloise's willingness to help suggests they were confident that, whatever happened, the Others wouldn't be affected. On a side note, would the Temple protect the Others from the effects of the Incident and/or nuke?

Third, why would Eloise be concerned about dying from the Swan anomaly? Remember, Jack and Co. are trying to avert the Incident. They believe (incorrectly) that, if they fail, the anomaly will create the Swan, and if they succeed, the anomaly will be eliminated. Even in the worst case scenario, therefore, the Island, Richard, and Eloise all survive.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, that’s why i left it more open ended the 1st time i mentioned it by saying maybe “somebody” turned the FDW, wasn't sure Ellie turning it necessarily worked out

Greg Tramel said...

i just really liked it as an explanation for the whiteout, i don’t know much about nuclear bombs but i’m thinking if it didn’t go off when it hit the ground or even after Juliet knocked it on the rock thr 1st time i would think it would NEVER go off

maybe killing Jacob (or attempting to) sets of a trigger to automatically move the FDW

Bigmouth said...

But we also saw a white light after Desmond turned the Key. That's another reason I'm skeptical of the Wheel being turned. It undercuts the clear parallel to Desmond activating the Fail-Safe.

Greg Tramel said...

so Big, you're thinking Ellie turned the FDW sometime after Daniel was born on the island?

i was thinking Charles may have turned the wheel previously to when he was banished off island via the sub, that’s when he started the whole thing with the off island woman and his corporation

but he had come back to the island (buy this time Ellie was off island and Ben had assumed leadership) and then soon after was banished by Ben

so like you said maybe Charles turned the wheel at Incident time
byut somehow made it back to the island

Greg Tramel said...

ok, we just want to see Juliet in her BD suit wandering the woods

maybe killing Jacob was like a failsafe key

Greg Tramel said...

i guess this line when they were talking about the Tunisia exit point made me think Ben tricked Charles into turning the wheel

"WIDMORE: Well, that's the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, as he did with me. I was their leader."

BUT maybe that’s not what he meant because this line came soon after

“WIDMORE: We protected the Island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled... by him... just as you were.”

Capcom said...

LOLs totally outloud Greg! I forgot about Juliet being the next one to be nekkid in the woods after being a close-contact whiteout victim!!!
X-D

All valid counter-points Big, and ones that I have thrown out to myself about that also.

Perhaps there is a similarity between Desmond *turning* a key, and the FDW *turning*, that make both acts and effects on the energy pockets similiar? That is, maybe the turning of the key turned a mechansim like the FDW? TPTB mentioned long ago about a continual "leaking" due to the DI's breach of the Swan site pocket (causing the button-pushing of course), so perhaps the FDW energy was still contained somehow, but the Swan's similar energy was then breached and had to be controlled. So then there would be the difference in the activation of the FDW mechanism vs. the correction of the Failsafe mechanism. Ya got me.

Of course then one has to ask, what exactly did the Failsafe do? Patch the leak and enclose it for good? Blow the energy pocket to bits and out of existance? Those two scenarios could be why the DI chose to patch the breach rather than use a finite destructive fix on it, because they hoped to still be able to use it for their research, as per the Swan vid. I also like the idea that Jacob's death might trigger something as well. Let's hope that TPTB don't create their own loophole so that they get out of s'plaining all this to us!

I was guessing that too about Wid's exit, and his eventual off-island escapades Greg.

Greg Tramel said...

so it sounds like Widmore went on and off the island on a regular basis, sure would like to know how because i assume this included before the purge, but like Big said Ellie could have gotten off island by these other means and i suppose she got off island (the same way Charles came and went) before Daniel was born

what has always thrown me off if Ben exiled Charles after the purge, who were the armed guards with the strange uniforms on and how did the Others know how to operate the sub?

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

yeah, good point Capcom, i'm NOT sure WHAT the failsafe key actually did, other than knock Des' clothes off and turn the sky purple

but wasn't all that was left of the Swan/Hatch a big hole in the ground

yeah, maybe Lost should have been on Showtime so we could see Juliet nude (and yes, i saw the Gia clip)

Bigmouth said...

Greg: The way I see it, someone else besides Eloise turning the Wheel just substitutes one set of problems for another. At least with Eloise we have a motive based on something we know turning the Whee can do -- i.e., eject the turner -- even if it has problems.

I, too, originally interpreted that line by Charles to mean he turned the Wheel. But how then did he return to the Island? Ben seemed genuinely concerned that turning the Wheel meant exile and went to elaborate lengths to return. Plus, Charles mentioned that he'd been trying unsuccessfully to return since his exile by sub. I did think Eloise might have been tricked into turning the Wheel, but Widmore's line clear refers to his own exile upon rereading.

Capcom: I agree there's a connection between turning the Wheel and turning the Fail-Safe key. That's partly why I'm now so skeptical the Wheel was turned during the Incident. If you think about it, that latter possibility weakens the connection by implying the Fail-Safe did nothing more than neutralize the Swan anomaly. I believe turning that key had much greater effects -- e.g., flashing Desmond's body forward, and his consciousness backward, in time.

I also think it would be something of a cheat if the bomb doesn't go off. I feel like part of what elevates this above a serial cliffhanger cliche is that the question isn't whether the bomb went off, but rather whether it rebooted the timeline.

Capcom said...

OK, after reading Doc Jensen's mention of TPTB asking for fan-made theme songs for Lost, I would submit Bill Murray singing in his best SNL lounge lizard voice, "Lost Wars, nothing but Lost Wars..." Cuz, like, there's a war on the island, heheh. *crickets chirping* :o)

Greg Tramel said...

i suppose the difference between turning the FDW and the using the failsafe key is when the FDW is used the island moves therefore making it next to impossible to get back to the island but still possible since both Ben and Locke (sorta) made it back to the island

i'm trying to remember, when Des turned the failsafe key was there a whiteout like the end of season 5 or was it more purple?

Greg Tramel said...

but if the bomb went off Big, how would anybody on the island have survived?

Greg Tramel said...

probably nothing to this but in reading up on mirror matter, i ran into this

"sparked research into mirror matter again ... by physicists at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor."

Mirror Matter - the Invisible Universe

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

OK, gang. Purple sky with the failsafe, whiteout for time jumps. People on the Island mentioned the sky turning purple after Desmond turned the key.

Big, I was simply thinking of the most logical reason Ellie would turn the wheel, and Greg did say he read the theory somewhere else. Ben is obviously a liar when he told Locke if you turn the wheel, you can't come back. Widmore likely could go back if he knew what was in the Lamp Post, the coordinates, etc. I don't think Ellie turned the wheel, and that the only time it WAS turned was when Ben did it and then Locke. As Big says, anyone can leave by boat or sub if they know the compass heading. BUT: if Ellie did leave, my thoughts were that she knew she'd be fine and Faraday would be born because, etc. etc.

Capcom, re: the turning references. Without looking it up, wasn't the Orientation video behind Henry James' THE TURN OF THE SCREW in the Swan station?

One last thing, gg13, way above you mentioned it not being the public's fault that LOST isn't running more seasons. To some extent, it is, though. Viewers complained about too many reruns. Then the producers tried a split season, with no reruns, and the viewers STILL complained. The last two years we've seen only 18 hours instead of 23 or 24, to accomodate a rerun-free season. I think the first two seasons relied on too many mysteries and not enough answers, but in the end, I do believe the viewers are to blame. I'm sure that if we had the 23/4 hours the past two seasons, with a few reruns, we'd be satisfied with more than a few answers.

I agree with you that a lot of it is tough to get, I still don't quite understand some of the show's mysteries (like you mentioned, the whispers), but I think compared to others shows that came before it, like X-FILES and MILLENIUM, the show has stayed on one track. Bigmouth and I have been talking about how the first five seasons, the writers have led us to believe one thing and have now done a switcheroo type thing. I do think that a certain amount of viewers might just give up on the show. If you are still confused about the two Lockes, the original one is dead, the Smoke Monster or that guy in black with Jacob, he is inside a fake body that LOOKS like Locke's, because only Locke was allowed to enter the place where Jacob lives. John Locke was hanged by Ben, this other Locke is like a shape-shifter, if you will. But he can only shape shift to someone who is already dead. The Man In Black could not take the form of me, or you, or Hurley, etc. But he could take the form of Faraday or (if Sayid dies from his wound) Sayid. Hope that helps, it is one of the tougher things we've discussed here.

Capcom, no, no one "big" writer wrote those novels, they were work for hire, three or four authors made maybe $500.00 a book, period. No royalties. (WFH=one lump sum, that's it.) I actually forgot about those things for awhile, they came out between S1 and S2.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Going back, yes, Greg, that Widmore talk was confusing, but it was likely to keep us guessing until we actually saw him being banished. But certainly Eloise can return to the Island, right? Ben did, Locke did. I can see Eloise hiding info from Widmore, the only reason I can see her staying off-Island is to be, to probably screw up a name that Bigmouth came up with decades ago, a Chronal Protection Agent. So this is another thing that just makes me want to think of 1977-2007 as a loop, even if its only a single reboot.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, yes, in the Island's 12,000 years history (my speculation, not concrete) i would say the FDW has been turned many times

another thing about the ARGs, Lost books, Lost Magazine and even the enhanced episodes is i think TPTB have said most of it is NOT cannon, so in sense it is extraneous, fun stuff but not necessarily part of the core show, i think the only extra thing they said was cannon were the Mobisodes

people could always come to the public library to learn and use a computer if they wanted the extraneous stuff but for many people watching the show is plenty but i’m very happy for the extraneous stuff to dig deeper even though it is optional to enjoying the show

also, Wayne the library still devotes about 70% of it’s real estate to books so we'll do our part to keep writers in business, if there were more bookstores like Quimbys I bet people would buy more print

Capcom, welcome to libaryland!

that being said, yes a book very enlightening IF TPTB would say it IS cannon but i did not participate much in the ARGs or read the Lost Magazine or any of the Lost books (i did skim a few at the bookstore) and still have plenty to chew on, but i do troll the Lost blogs and Lostpedia is a must since my memory is not what it used to be

Greg Tramel said...

if 1977 - 2007 is a loop, i wonder if killing Jacob breaks them out of the loop and Jacob knew this

so when 815 crashed it put our characters near the end of a loop and then when they reached 2007 the loop started again by sending some 316ers back to 1977

Greg Tramel said...

what i was trying to come up with about the mirror matter is if the island & everybody/everything on the island is mirror matter would a nuclear bomb affect anything since everything is mirror matter

but i need to do much more research

Greg Tramel said...

and i think everything Ben says needs to be taken with a grain of salt not only because of his lying but i suspect he has been a pawn all along (even though he/we thought he was really the Other's leader and in control) i think when Jacob said "what about you" Bern realized he had been a victim of a lifelong con

also, we don't know how much Richard told Ben (or for that matter anything Richard said was Jacob's will)that was complete lies

Capcom said...

TGIF Sickies! Good thoughts this week everyone.

Re: Turn Of The Screw...oh wow, totally! Good catch! :-o

Wayne, don't you think that the DI tried to turn the wheel, as hinted at by the polar bear in Tunisia? Or are you just saying that the only time the newly formed Others turned the wheel was when Ben did it?

I agree that the whining viewers (and knee-jerk reaction by ABC) did change things about the show. The problem (IMNSHO) with the S1&2 reruns was that the show was so complicated, and just when you were ready for the next big clue, they'd run a week or two of reruns, without any warning and that was very frustrating. Altho for myself, when Lost began I had just started cancer treaments and my mind was kind of occupied so I didn't watch the first few eps. Then when they reran the pilots, etc., I was able to find out how it started, so that actually workd out well for me at the time. Also, later (around S3) TPTB told us in the magazine and podcasts that making Lost is like making a feature movie every week, and it takes them a lot of time to get everything done on time. Maybe if they would have told us that from the get-go people would have been a little more patient with the reruns and break time. Or not.

I saw those Lost novels in the bookstore, but passed on them since I didn't recognize the authors, but at this point since I've been out of the SciFi author loop for a while, that's not saying much. I'm not averse to reading TV fiction outside the show, I really got into reading those early Star Trek books which I believe were mostly written by the same guy who wrote most of the ST cartoon stories which were very good...just as good as ST:TOS stories IMO. But, having said that, I fully intend to buy the new Lost book that's a recap "best of" the magazing, and there has been very interesting info there on props, characters, diagrams, etc.

Thanks for the welcome Greg! I can't wait to move up to working in a real library (or museum) some day. Maybe in Alexandria? Oh yeah, that one burned down. :o)

Good points about the loop. Hmm.

Wow, mirrormatter vs. with nuclear fission, double-hmmmmm!

Capcom said...

Crud, even when I proofread I still get typos. :-p

BTW, two ladies from the TLC blog are going to ComicCon, and are going to post frequent updates throughout the weekend. Not that DarkUFO, et.al., won't have bigger and better timely news, but the TLCers might catch insider nuances that the big guys don't. FWIW. :-)

P.S. The new Eureka season starts tonight, it's fun science! I'd love to live in that town.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, looking forward to what TPTB come up with at Comic Con

the bed & breakfast on Warehouse 13 made me think of Eureka

and also, i wonder if Jack was about dead before Vincent came to wake him up like when the woman's dead (co-worker, boyfriend?) "woke" her up after the car crash

Greg Tramel said...

speaking of comic con, i hope somebody posts a video of this panel, i NEED to go to comic con

"Entertainment Weekly: Wonder Women: Female Power Icons in Pop Culture— EW will moderate a conversation with Sigourney Weaver (Avatar), Elizabeth Mitchell (LOST), Kristen Bell (Veronica Mars), and other stars about the actresses who have redefined the rules and the female characters that have shattered the glass ceiling for all women. Basically: a discussion with women who kick ass."

Greg Tramel said...

some interesting insight on Christian Shephard but stuff we've talked about here before

'Light vs. Dark' on 'Lost': Blue-Suited Christian Shephard

Capcom said...

I think vids of the panels have been posted in the past. DarkUFO will probably have a special section set up for CC as in the past, as will ODI, DocFartz, etc.

Interesting thought about Jack. :-o

Greg Tramel said...

this would be excellent to watch

Writers Guild Foundation Releases “Inside the Writers Room with LOST”DVD

Greg Tramel said...

i’m striking out finding a better picture than this but doesn’t it look like a phoenix on Des’ shirt?


Des and the Phoenix

Bigmouth said...

Greg: Good point -- the bomb exploding is a problem if there's no reboot. Remember, though, it's not the full Jughead we're talking about, just the core. Plus, any explosion would take place down a deep hole, with the earth and Swan anomaly absorbing most of the blast. Besides, if the bomb didn't go off, why was Richard be so sure they all died? I really don't think he's talking about the Purge -- I think our Losties will flash back to the future well before then.

As for mirror matter, keep in mind that the stuff would be invisible and pass right through the Earth like a ghost. For the most part, mirror and regular matter interact only via gravity. So, I don't think it makes sense for everyone and everything on the Island to be made of mirror matter. At one time, I wondered if there might be a mirror matter deposit on the Island. But the show seems to be going with exotic matter, which has nothing to do with mirror matter.

Wayne: Turn of the Screw is the main reason I keep analogizing Lost to a haunting (i.e., an event loop) rather than a time loop. Regarding Ben, I strongly disagree he was lying about the consequences of turning the Wheel. If I remember correctly, Darlton suggested in a podcast that there was some kind of spiritual(?) as opposed to practical or physical barrier to return. That's the whole reason why Ben knows he must be judged by Smokey upon returning.

Capcom: I've actually been revisiting Carl Sagan's Cosmos series, which is available on Hulu. Sagan says that, if he could visit any place in history, it would be the library at Alexandria. There's a trippy scene where he actually tours the library with the assistance of early computer animation!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, James Blish was the writer you are thinking of. He wrote what I think is the finest werewolf story every written, in 1952, "There Shall Be No Darkness."

My thoughts on the polar bear was this, Chang and the DI see the wheel, but its iced over. They try to move it by strapping a single polar bear (or maybe two) just like one would a donkey. I do not think the Island moved, rather the polar bear disappeared. If the Island moved in time, surely Ann Arbor would have known. Because of it being half-iced over, it hadn't been moved in quite some time, and I want to believe that it is actually a type of steering wheel with more complicated stuff covered in the ice.

Greg, you know my thoughts about the ARGs. And that is my main argument, sure, there are computers in the libraries, but I'm talking people in their 70s here, I can name at least seven in my extended family. They enjoy Locke and Ben, Sawyer, et al. Even if you get a 78 year old to learn how to check emails, they'd flip over Google searches an the like. Maybe a few older people will, but not that many.

The new trend seems to be internet to bookshelf there's a Harry Potter book that is 100% taken from the intrawebs. I say good on ya, an actual book. That's my project with Bigmouth, and your use of the word con, Greg, is so close to our project that's its maddening to not blurt it out. But the book, in some for, is still a net to shelf book. And that is why I think there should have been an ARG book, non-canon or not. A few still shots from a Comic-Con video with an explanation is just fine. I don't buy LOST magazine because of the price and the fact that there is a full page photo of dingbat and three paragraphs of text. There was even that crazy diary by Janelle at ABC.com, it might have run until S2, because I included it in GETTING LOST. That could run a few pages, easily, even though it just stopped online.
The more I hear Abrams talk, he's like a little kid who loves all this new shit and the idea of a book is beyond him. Thankfully, there are blogs for duiscussion, but if DarkUFO, e.g., can post screencaps, certainly they can be in a nice book. Do they really think it wouldn't sell? And, Greg, libraries are great. If I have the $$$, though, I'll support the author by buying the book, if its a new guy or maybe someone writing an independant comic. The entire 4th floor of our main library downtown is filled with only books by Chicago authors.

Capcom said...

Wow, that WGF DVD does look good. Maybe it wil be up on Youtube in the near future. :o)

Yes, what ep is that image of Des from? We could look it up on the lost media gallery

Oh wow Big, I love the Cosmos series, and isn't that Alexandria segment fantastic?! Makes ya want to cry over all that lost knowledge there. :-( I'll have to visit Hulu.

Nice Wayne/Warhol avi Wayne! :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Bigmouth, you may be right about Ben, but I still hold that he lies a lot and sometimes says something that is maybe 50% true. The only time we've seen real Ben was after Alex died. And during the judgment, but the two are related.

By the way, Greg. Widmore was banished after the Purge, Alex is maybe 4 or 5 in that scene, which matches up with 1992. But its strange that Jacob (through Ben) Ok'd the Purge. Does Jacob's "progress" mean he can just call it quits at some point, then wait for the next batch of people? The more I think on it, Widmore isn't thinking outside the box on getting back to the Island like Eloise is. Owning the Black Rock log is a plus, its something with a direct tie to the Island, and perhaps Desmond plays into this. Will Widmore get back to the Island in S6? Maybe he will, once he saw his mercenary and science team all die on him. Eloise says behind because she is like Brainiac, Widmore is like Lex Luthor. He wants to to own the Island.

Big, interesting about the event loop, but if I understand the term correctly, my argument would be that if the event doesn't occur according to plan, it repeats itself until the desired result happens.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I think Des was wearing the p;hoenix shirt on his boat or when he was in the Lamp Post. A few people have compared Jacob as the phoenix because of Desmond's t-shirt.

Capcom said...

Perhaps Jacob is also guilty of stacking the deck in favor of his side of the argument as well, via giving the "little push" to get the Losties to the island, and booting Widmore off the island to get rid of the bad apple? But if that's true, why wouldn't he get rid of loose cannon Ben?! Always the counterpoint to every guesstimate in this show, oy.

I thought of the Phoenix as soon as J got kicked into the fire, I assumed that's what we were supposed to think (either as a red herring or a hint/clue for what was to come).

It looks like Des' shirt in Greg's shot is from the stadium confrontation between D&P. I'll try to find it at the Lost gallery.

Greg Tramel said...

thanks Capcom, i found a picture at lostmedia

it just seems strange that there are these lines drawn around it like they REALLY wanted us to notice it

see ya in another life brotha

Greg Tramel said...

video for the skaters or should it be swingbat

James & Kate: Someday it would return to him

Capcom said...

Awesome! I was just about to check that episode after I checked "LTDA" from S2. I posted your find and mine on my Lost Science blog.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, Jacob needed Ben because he knew Ben would kill him. There is some parallel to Locke getting Sawyer to kill Anthony Cooper, I think, but I'm not picking up on it. Actually, its not that he knew Ben would kill him, rather he manipulated him enough for the possibility to occur.

Makes sense that the Phoenix shirt goes back to S2, I thought he was wearing it on the boat, though.

Greg, Quimby's is one of the few independant book stores left. Borders and Barnes & Noble did a scorched Earth thing on Chicago in the mid-90s. Some of the Borders have closed; B&N has their OWN imprint, fer cry-eye. Some of the other stores, like The Stars Our Destination tried internet catalogues, but soon fizzled out. When Booksellers Row went under, I made a few good buys, a 1922 edition of BEN-HUR for 4 bucks, a ton of pulp fiction, and this odd diary from 1939 of a guy who worked downtown at the long-defunct Harris Shirt company. Buying the books made me think of a farm auction, though.

Capcom said...

P.S., yes, the lines around it do seem odd, for the average polo shirt crest. Unless it has some kind of meaning similar to another UK type of logo or crest. I'll send out a post question on TLC since there are some UKers over there, but it may take a while to get a reply since it's slow there right now.

Capcom said...

I agree about Ben Wayne.

Wow, some nice book finds there!

He could have also had the shirt on recently as well.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

If Des is like me, he keeps his shirts until they are rags. I have a few shirts from the early 80s I can't fit into, but I can't part with them. Even though I buy a lot at thrift stores now, I have one shirt with the Puerto Rican Observatory on the front in 1995 or 6 and it still fits, so I still wear it. The logo is faded as all hell, but I love the shirt. Anyone else like me out there?

Capcom said...

Oh yeah! Unfortunately I had to get rid of some beloved items for my interstate move, but I cling to some old classics as well. :o)

You mean Arecebo, Wayne? Like in my favorite movie? :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Yep, that's the one. It has the actual logo on it, if you look close enough. I've had HENRY: PORTRAIT OF A SERIAL KILLER since 1982, its a small so I can even fit it past my shoulders, but I can't get rid of it because it is still in very good condition, and I'm not even considering eBay. I have a B&W Frankenstein, but that's about 1990.

Capcom said...

I went to see the new movie "Moon" today, it's pretty good. And thankfully NOT about time travel, which it did look like it was for a minute. Whew.

Greg Tramel said...

read a so so review yesterday but yes i plan on seeing it, it's by David Bowie's son

Capcom said...

That's right, I forgot about Zoey/Joey/Bowie/Duncan Jones directing it. :o) It's good. No flash, just real, and kind of has a feel of a minimalist Solaris momentarily, but is not really in that fantasy genre. Very authentic looking.

Bigmouth said...

I just saw a really interesting Spanish film about time travel called Time Crimes. Fans of "whatever happened, happened" will find much to love. As a bonus, the film does a good job of explaining how multiple versions of the same person can co-exist simultaneously due to time travel.

Greg: I also finally got around to watching the pilot for Warehouse 13 and really, really enjoyed it! Anyone else think Mrs. Frederic is an alien? I'll bet she chose the form of an African-American woman in the 1950s as a kind of test of humanity.

Capcom: I can see the phoenix symbolism in retrospect. But my first thought was that Jacob's cremation was a reference to Miles's encounter with the father of the cremated teen, followed by Colleen's immolation by funeral pyre in the Cost of Living. The latter is one reason why I'm still a little skeptical we're about to see Jacob reborn. BTW, I'm so psyched you enjoyed Moon -- can't wait to see it myself!

Wayne: I really dig the parallel between Locke using Sawyer to kill Cooper, and Jacob using Ben to kill himself!

Bigmouth said...

PS: I got into an interesting discussion the other day with our own too2strange about why Daniel didn't have nosebleeds during the flashes even though he'd been to the Island before. This ties into two possibilities we've been kicking around recently. First, it could indicate that Ellie was pregnant with someones besides Daniel, as some of you have speculated.

Alternatively, if it was Daniel in Ellie's belly, he apparently spent less time on the Island than the rest of them did as kids or adults. In fact, if we're using Sawyer as a benchmark, that implies Ellie and Daniel left the Island within 100 days of the Incident. Could this be evidence that Eloise turned the Wheel, as some of you have suggested?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

For the sake of argument, what if someone forced Ellie to turn the wheel, ensuring her baby would be ok? My guess is Richard, if his thoughts were that Faraday needed to be born so the he could write the notebook, tell them how to hide the bomb in 1954, etc. Ellie could have already picked out the name Daniel, or its as simple as seeing the notebook (and knowing that Faraday simply didn't simply find the notebook and claim to be the guy from 1954 or whatever). Ellie explains to Richard all of this as they walk through the tunnels, he then tells her to continue on. What if the opposite side of the wheel is accessible through the tunnels? Would the exit point still be in Tunisia? Off the coast of Portland? Greece? Sumeria? Has anyone really discussed the opposite side of the wheel?

Thanks, Big, on my thinking back to "The Brig," and I guess, thinking on it, if MIB "saw" Locke encourage another to kill for him, he then knew if he took Locke's form that he could again encourage, in this case, Ben, to kill. I'm still not certain if there is too much to be read into that, though. I dunno. Or, as you said, Jacob knowing Locke could give Ben the push that Jacob was giving Sawyer and Jack, et. al.

W 13 is On Demand and I'll likely watch it tonight. I have nob clue about this moon film you guys have mentioned, is it an independent film? There's only one art house here, Piper's Alley, way north.

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