Tuesday, October 20, 2009

It's a Wonderful LOST...

I've long since abandoned hope that Juliet will wake up naked in the jungle.  But I find myself wondering nonetheless about Jacob's absence from her flashback.  I just can't believe it was simply to foreshadow her demise.  As I suggested after the finale, I still think they will meet through the miracle of mind travel.  And when they do, Jacob will offer Juliet a choice between effectuating the timeline we've seen -- including her own death -- or erasing reality from 1977 onwards.



Let me begin by clarifying a point that's crucial to my claim.  I believe that detonation of the Jughead's core creates an "alternate" reality.  The catch is that this alternate reality is the timeline of events depicted in Seasons 1-5.  Everything we've seen assumes that our Losties crash, travel back in time, and detonate the bomb, which causes the Swan protocol, which causes the crash.  Miles was 100% correct that our Losties were always the cause of the Incident -- in the alternate reality.



The "primary" reality is one in which Oceanic 815 lands safely at LAX, so our Losties never travel back in time, and the bomb is never a factor.  Jacob is a fourth-dimensional being capable of transcending time and space.  Dr. Michio Kaku notes that such a 4D being would be omniscient and omnipotent in three dimensions, just as a 3D being is god-like in 2D Flatland.  Jacob uses this power to manipulate the primary timeline, creating the alternate reality in which our Losties cause the Incident.



That brings me back to Juliet's choice.  At the end of Season 5, she's frantically hammering on the bomb in hopes of detonating it before the Swan anomaly reaches critical.  We see a white flash like we did when Desmond activated the Fail-Safe, a similarity that's no coincidence.  I believe Juliet's consciousness will be blasted across spacetime like Desmond's.  Juliet, however, will be hurtled into the primary reality, where she will meet Jacob.  Here's how I imagine their encounter:

Juliet: Everything's been reset...Daniel's plan worked!

Jacob: No, Juliet, this is what reality looks like if the bomb doesn't detonate.

Juliet:  I...don't understand.  I remember setting off the bomb.

Jacob: I'm afraid it's not that simple.  Right now, there are two possible futures superimposed like Schroedinger's cat.  There's the one you remember, which actually depends on the bomb exploding.  And there's this one, in which the bomb fails to explode, so Oceanic 815 never crashes.  You have to decide which future happens.

Juliet: Why would I choose a future in which I'm dead and the plane still crashes?

Jacob: We all make sacrifices, Juliet.  Before you decide, I have something to show you...

He will take her on a tour of our Losties' lives in the primary reality.  Judging by the Comic-Con videos, aspects of this reality are familiar.  Kate is wanted for murder, and Hurley still the owner of Mr. Clucks.  Certain things remain the same because they're not the product of Jacob's intervention, but rather what fate intended.  I'm guessing Juliet's sister Rachel dies from cancer in the primary reality -- assuming Ben didn't lie about Jacob healing her.  Juliet may still be married to that awful Edmund Burke.



This tour will culminate in Juliet's encounter with her beloved Sawyer.  She will be dismayed to find he's the pathetic con man of his flashbacks in the primary reality, a pale shadow of the LaFleur she loved so fiercely.  Juliet will realize that, for all the grief the Island has caused them, it also has been a positive force in all of their lives, including her own.  Like Charlie, she will choose to sacrifice herself, detonating the bomb and preserving the temporal loop in which our Losties cause the Incident.



If this seems familiar, it probably is.  In Frank Capra's classic, It's a Wonderful Life, beleaguered George Bailey wishes he'd never been born.  His wish is granted by guardian angel Clarence, who shows George how his hometown would look if he'd never existed.  George is shocked and saddened by the changes, particularly in his wife, who is now a lonely spinster.  Realizing that, despite his troubles, the world is a better place because of him, George begs Clarence to restore the reality he remembers.



In the end, George returns to his family, and Clarence gets his wings.  No similar such happy endings await Juliet or Jacob.  But I'm confident that when Juliet sees the grim primary reality, particularly Sawyer, she will reach the same basic realization as George.  Ultimately, it's a wonderful LOST after all...

225 comments:

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Capcom said...

Good post Big. So Jacob is like the Ghost of Christmas Past-Present-Future all rolled into one and Juliet is Scrooge. I think that I can get into that. It would be quite a twist to put everything on the shoulders of Juliet, after TPTB have presented Jack, and not least Desmond, to seem to be the pivotal choice-makers in the dilemma, but Juliet was there at the critical moment, so something has to ride on her actions for sure. I'm just glad that it isn't Kate.

:-o

Capcom said...

P.S. I would really like to see the FB where Jacob touches Rachel to cure her. Although I'm leaning towards MIB being the one who Ben thought was going around healing people. Or...sometimes it was Jacob -- when the healing happened -- and it was MIB, when it did not happen. And I also hope that we are shown how the "island" can not only heal people, but keep guns from going off, etc.

But back on topic, if your guess is true, I'm thinking that we see Juliet going through some agony having to decide between picking the easy/best solution that has the negative drawback of canceling Rachels healing. Mitchell would do a great job with a moral problem like that.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

To paraphrase from the original "Jacob says that every time Jughead blows, his alt reality grows."

I really like the overall logic of your idea Big. It also just might provide a suitable loophole for TPTB to use an alt reality despite their prior denials (not to mention criticism of the device as used in Heroes) in that the alt reality isn't the escape valve - the primary reality is!

I do have some reservations based upon it appearing to me that it was really the MiB was pulling the strings on the time travel escapades that end up with Juliet in the vital "supercausal" position between the two realitites. I've been working on some theories about the MiB's machinations, including why certain people may have been banished to the past (e.g. Hurley and Miles had to be kept away from un-Locke, as the real dead Locke could have undone the whole plan by communicating with them), but we certainly have a lot of unknowns that could fit into your proposal.

Any thoughts on how Desmond, as a nascent 4D man, might fit (or throw a monkey wrench) into the plan?

BTW - we shared the same hope of a naked Juliet running through the jungle. Alas, I don't think its to be...(sighs wistfully)

Capcom said...

LOL.

Oh wow, I never thought about Miles and Hurley getting some inside info from DeadLocke that could blow MIB's plan. Interesting.

If the Swan's failsafe that Des initiated was actually a bomb, then we can probably expect the same things to happen to Juliet that happened to him, i.e., mental traveling, etc. Heheh, and I guess that would include needing a shirt from Hurley as well.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Everybody with nature girl. Everyone knows they secretly want to see a naked Bernard... I think it would play different if Jacob plucked her out of 3D to talk, and I HOPE if he shows her the past, we see things she has said and done on the Island that make her just as bad as con man Sawyer. Maybe she'll even see Sawyer kill Sawyer.

People in fictional 2D break through the 4th wall often (not certain why its not the 3rd wall, in all honesty), so if you are saying Jacob (and MIB, I think it HAS to be this way) are up in 4D playing everyone as chess pieces, (which I think was a story in MYSTERY TALES, Capcom, correct me if I'm wrong here), then anything goes. Jacob never touched young Juliet because he chose to move a different chess piece instead.

I've always liked the chessboard analogy, but for the 4Ders, the game IS more like faceless backgammon. No identities, just a need to win the game. Doesn't matter how many pieces/people are lost during the game, if Jacob wins, its progress.

Good post, Big, and nice comments, all.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And, Big, I agree. Desmond is 4D but doesn't quite get it. Maybe its just his mind that projects in 4D. It would be cool to see that in between S5 and S6 Desmond has already departed for the Island.

Greg Tramel said...

i suppose the ghost of christmas parallel would be a way to get around showing the what-if-not timeline without it actually having to happen but i think some fans will call a foul, seems like a bit of a cheat

also, i still think The Incident happened and The Swan is built regardless if Jughead detonates or not

Greg Tramel said...

also, i think if Ellie turns the FDW the same time Jughead detonates, Juliet may still be alive and HOPEFULLY sans clothes

Greg Tramel said...

hmm, why is JACOB in all caps in this sell sheet? is JACOB an acronym???????

http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2009/10/first-season-6-marketing-material.html

Greg Tramel said...

just in case y'all didn't see this the hieroglyphs on the season 6 poster spell out two Egyptian words, meaning 'Who is the guide?' or 'Who is the leader?'

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/technology_news/4334205.html?series=6

lostmio said...

Way to go,Big!! It's blissful not to be out there all by my lonesome about season 1-5 events being caused by the detonation.
I'm 100% convinced that's the premise of S6.
Sadly, we can't elaborate here without dipping heavily into the spoiler pot. Yet the zillions of folks who have seen the same spoilers don't agree. Usually I say 'that's ok, their mileage varies' but in this case, they're just plain WRONG.

My mileage re Juliet is 'juliet, schmuliet'; I'm not a fan of the character or actress. It's ok that folks' mileage varies on that

Glad you started this new thread. I've been watching reruns and so many things now are falling into place. I can't believe how many cues and clues I missed.

dj said...

Well it's all definitely been building to alternate reality for a while. Exhibit A: The Whispers. When did those come in, the first freaking episode? Though that would indicate to me that people are on the Island in a parallel/alternate universe observing what we observed in S.1-5, commenting to each other, etc.

Somehow though, and I really have no basis for this feeling, but I don't think Juliet is going to be all that pivotal. Important as any other character who's survived (err ehh...) this long, but not pivotal like say... Jack, Desmond, Locke, or Ben.

I think the most important thing, and the real focus, should be Jacob's warning that "they're coming." And who is "they"? I don't think MIB cares about Ilana's group so much... she will spoil the party with the dead Locke body business, thus bringing the charade to an end, but MIB seemed really terrified/pissed. So it's got to be the O6.

beer said...

well i cant really say i agree with anything here, although if juliet were having a conversation with jacob it'd be way more untoward than that haha.

neoloki said...

I am not real hip to the Wonderful Life analogy. It is a bit to literal for Lost. Having said that, I believe some of the details could be dead on. 4d beings, not seeing Juliet and Jacob, seasons 1-5 being the ALT, etc...

Juliet has had her role to play by detonating Jughead, but choosing the the fate of a multi-verse? I am not ready to make that leap. Nor do I want to.

All that being said, I was quite happy to see that you posted another theory. Always, good reading.

Oh, no apologies necessary. I read your comments with the weight they deserve.

neoloki said...

Maybe I should qualify a statement: not too literal for Lost, just me.

KoreAmBear said...

Hey guys, SPOILER on location filming pics were posted by this local blogger. There's some amazing stuff in there, if you decide to check out:

http://www.hawaiiweblog.com/2009/10/19/lost-on-location-2#more-2259

Bigmouth said...

Just a friendly reminder that we don't discuss spoilers or link to them on posts not specifically denoted SPOILER. Thanks!

Bigmouth said...

Capcom: A Christmas Carol is indeed analogous with one important caveat. Juliet effectuates the future she knows, rather than changing it. That's why I prefer the analogy to It's a Wonderful Life. If you think about it, Desmond makes the same choice to effectuate the future -- with all its misery -- by deciding not to propose to Penny.

As for Rachel, I could see a pivotal scene where Juliet visits her sister's hospital room -- or grave -- in the primary reality. How crazy would it be if that's where she runs into Edmund? We hear a familiar voice off screen: "Juliet...I didn't expect to find you here." She turns, and there he is...

Netprophet: You raise a fascinating possibility about the Man in Black being responsible for the time loop. I especially love the stuff about stranding Miles and Hurley in the past because of their potential to undermine MIB's plan. My main problem is that we've been told -- explicitly by MIB and implicitly by the tapestry -- that Jacob is the one who brings people to the Island. Because the loop was necessary to accomplish that in the case of Oceanic 815, Jacob still strikes me as the mostly likely culprit.

But what about this? I've long maintained that the Loophole was the Oceanic 6 leaving the Island -- literally the hole in Jacob's loop. I suspect, if all had gone according to Jacob's plan, everyone would have traveled back to 1977 together, without any time skips. Those skips enabled MIB to set in motion events that resulted in him assuming Locke's corporeal form, taking control of the Others, and instigating Jacob's murder. Maybe MIB hoped that Miles would die during the skips and Hurley would never return.

Wayne: Two players in a game of four-dimensional chess -- that's a perfect analogy! And think back to the two guys playing chess in the S2 finale. One of them says something like, "So your plan is to lose!" Maybe that's a metaphor for Jacob's secret plan to use MIB's loophole against him to make both of their deaths a fait accompli, paving the way for the Omega Point's creation.

Bigmouth said...

Greg: I'm torn about whether the Swan anomaly destroys the Island without the bomb to counteract it. On the one hand, it makes a lot of sense to me because I think the Island is the key to Jacob's ability to operate four dimensionally. Destroy the Island, and you neutralize or kill him -- it seems so logical. But I see your point and note that nothing in my speculation as articulated assumes the Island is destroyed.

Lostmio: Yes, having the reality we see be "alternate" resolves so many issues. It makes sense of the Comic-Con videos and requires less conflict with what Darlton have said than other alternate reality takes. Juliet didn't do it for me either...until Dharmaville. Something about her in those peasant blouses -- like the hot hippy mom Elyse Keaton on Family Ties LOL! Plus I totally bought her and Sawyer in love.

DJ: Those whispers are a puzzle for sure. Some of them are just the Others whispering in the jungle. I'm pretty sure David Fury has confirmed that's what they were originally meant to be. Some could well related to the two realities as you suggest. They could also be ripples in the alternate timeline that don't destroy the loop but disrupt it nonetheless -- the auditory equivalent of the changing picture frames. I personally wonder if they're the calling card of the Man in Black, who uses Smokey to manifest ghosts of the dead.

beer: Aren't you the guy who mentioned Schroedinger's cat a while back? I figured this would be right up your alley!

Neoloki: If it helps, think of them as ALL making choices that control the fate of the alternate reality. Ultimately, the loop is just as dependent on Desmond's choice not to propose to Penny -- and even Hurley's choice to return to the Island. Juliet's choice is just a handy way of making the point that they DO have a choice to participate in Jacob's plan, as well as illustrating the stakes of that choice.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Juliet's choice to detonate the bomb actually blasts Jack and Co. even further back in time, to the Black Rock period. Someone else will make a similar sacrifice to turn the Wheel, returning them to the present and completing the temporal loop.

Capcom said...

Pretty interesting KAB. :-) That guy always gets some good shots.

Capcom said...

Locke played chess with the computer as well.

lostmio said...

Bigmouth said: Ultimately, the loop is just as dependent on Desmond's choice not to propose to Penny -- and even Hurley's choice to return to the Island.

Desmond's 'choice' not to propose wouldn't have happened without the intervention of Ms. Hawking; ditto Hurley's choice and Jacob.
Ms. H and Jacob were (among other roles) Time Cops, making sure that WHH in 1977 happened.

lostmio said...

Big's "It's a Wonderful Life" reference is imo dead-on; it's a perfect analogy for the fake-out Hurley and Kate comic-con videos. There's no better other way to discuss those clips than to ask "what would the Losties' lives have been like had [the jughead detonation aka The Incident and therefore] the 815 crash never happened?".

Aaron was 3-4 years old when Jughead detonated. If, as I doggedly insist, the detonation caused 815 to crash, then there's a 3-4 year window between 815 crashing and the detonation/reset. That allows time for all sorts of Wonderful Life stuff to play out.
That's not to say the comic-con Hurley and Kate events happened as shown. Darlton would never tip their hand so blatantly. Still, IMO they want us to think along those lines..

Thunderstorm said...

I think the George Bailey allusion, or analogy fits the best, in terms of our pop culture references.

The most important aspect of this, is knowing that George Bailey is being shown a POSSIBLE future.

So from the jump, you know there is a possibility that it could easily be made to be 'unreal' and therefore, the "cheat" accusation is side-stepped, IMO.

The difference would be (in such a circumstance) not showing what happened to the Incident Losties after the Incident, on the Island.
So it would leave the audience thinking to themselves (this is real!) only to have the rug pulled out.

The George Bailey scenario is that you know this is a possible future from the jump. Depending on a decision that was eventually made.

All they would need to do is show Jack, Kate, Sayid etc. just after the Incident on the Island. So the question then becomes, especially if Clarence the Jacob Angel is showing Juliet a big 'what if' scenario, how much investment will you have in such a scenario?

Considering there are always 3 story arcs in every episode, you'd have 1. On-Island present day Sun, Ben and Frank etc. 2- Jack, Hurley and the Incident crew, post-Incident in whatever time period and 3-which is usually where the 'C' story resides (poker games, tree frog hunts) you'd have this Wonderful Lost scenario.

I think it hinges on showing us that it's not real. I would guess that this happens very early on. You'd have to expect a big WTF moment first, but then the easing of the pain will come when we see Hurley, Miles, Sayid, etc. in their Dharma jumpsuits on the Island.

Then you know a 'cheat' isn't coming (at least not IMO) it's just a choice between whether you'd rather see something else in that 'C' story slot. Their backstories are done, the flashbacks/forwards are probably mostly done, so I can see where this would work, personally. And they would only likely deal with it in the early part of the season. Winner, IMO.

KoreAmBear said...

Whoops sorry Big. You mean I should do:

***SPOILER*** at the top of my post?

KoreAmBear said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

i don't think the island is destroyed in anybodies scenero

whackadoo #2 - jack pushes the button while he flies by in 815

whackadoo #3 - they're coming includes everybody jacob ever brought to the island including Black Rock

Bigmouth said...

KoreAmBear: No, I mean no spoilers period unless I put (SPOILER) in the title of the post. No harm done, though!

Capcom said...

I think that you gave fair warning KAB, it's not like you told what was in the URL content like some people do, you just gave the choice of going to the spoiler URL if someone chose to. JMHO though, and I personaly like to be able to choose myself if I look at a spoiler or not.

Bigmouth said...

Sorry to be a killjoy, but we've discussed this before. Some people feel strongly about spoiler links. Thanks!

Capcom said...

Oops sorry, I thought that the problem was just that people were saying what was in the links before giving the link that was the problem. That happened a few times. :-o

Bigmouth said...

As I reread my post, I realize the notion of a primary timeline has interesting implications for another discussion we've had. If I'm right, Fate may always have meant for our Losties to be on Oceanic 815. If so, Jacob didn't need to manipulate them onto the plane -- the universe took care of that. Jacob simply had to cause the course change and crash. The part about the course change has me wondering whether the pilot was in league with Jacob. Is that why Smokey killed him in the Pilot?

Capcom: That's right...Locke played chess on the Flame computer. And what did Mikhail say? The computer cheats. I wonder if that's a veiled reference to Jacob or the MIB...

Lostmio: Precisely! Jacob plays the same role here as Ms. Hawking did in Flashes Before Your Eyes. The lingering question for me is whether she plays time cop at Jacob's request, or simply of her own volition. Initially, I was convinced it was the former, but it occurs to me that Eloise may simply have learned the wrong lesson regarding course correction.

Let's say she helps our Losties detonate the bomb in hopes of undoing the murder of her son. The result is an even greater catastrophe -- the ELE threat represented by the Swan. So she spends the rest of her life manipulating Desmond to undo that damage. Perhaps Ms. Hawking is a fatalist because she believes that changing the past just makes things worse. Your thoughts?

BTW, I hadn't even considered the possibility we might see Aaron as a child in the primary timeline. Good thinking!

Thunder: I'll be real curious how they frame the flashes to the primary timeline. I could see them being up front, as you suggest, to avoid accusations of cheating. I could also see them being deliberately ambiguous, then giving us one episode with Juliet that finally explains what we've been seeing. One reason I think they might go the latter route is that Juliet's choice is a great way to end the story arc.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Bigmouth:

Following up on your idea about fate having always meant for the Losties to be on Flight 815 (which I must agree with given evidence such as happy, chicken magnate Hurley going in search of recipes instead of Sam Toomey and still ending up on the same flight), it brings up an interesting questions about the last minute substitution of Seth Norris for Frank Lapidus. Is the fact that Frank eventually makes it to the Island anyhow a clear example of course correction, with fate having intended him to be on 815 before it was somehow thwarted? Was the switch then some planned maneuver, and if so who was pulling the strings?

I've always had some suspicions that Seth was maybe complicit in a plot where he was directed to take the plane off course. Given the so called "daylight problem" presented by the fact that 815 absolutely could not have been flying in daylight at the time it crashed (assuming no production error) it begs the question as to what the flight crew was thinking. While Frank seems an unlikely candidate to engage in such a scheme, perhaps Seth was more amenable, thus explaining the swap out. For the conspiratorial minded, you could even suggest that Seth then played Oswald to the Smoke Monster's Jack Ruby before he could spill the beans.

Could Seth have been put in place by Jacob? Working with Ilana and Bram or others in their crew? Conversely, the MiB would certainly be a good suspect - maybe realizing he needed to get Locke and the gang to the Island, but that Frank's uncanny piloting skills might be averse to his plans...

Just thinking out loud (in written form).:)

Thunderstorm said...

I believe Jacob is trying to get the Losties into a frame of mind to make certain free will decisions moving forward, AFTER their destiny (Jughead) has been fulfilled.

So up until that point, I'm still struggling (this is something I've been discussing with BM on the Fuselage) with the idea of Jacob's power (and thus MIB).

I see them more as observers to a (more or less) known set of data, and they are able, with their previous 'gameplay' (event loops) experience to manipulate to an extent, but I still have an issue with the idea that Jacob could bring the plane there.

As long as I believe this way, I have to believe the primary, fated universe is the one we've seen for 5 seasons. That said, I still support the 'George Bailey' scenario. Because I believe it will influence the direction/motivation of the Losties' free will moving forward.

Seems to me any 'what if' scenario would be merely a possibility. How could the unseen primary fated universe (where supposedly 815 doesn't crash) exist as a possibility?

I know that BigM has explained (on the 'Lage) this is due to Jacob's tweaking, so this is still the issue for me. Understanding Jacob's power. I am still inclined to think that he is much more benign, just merely 'superpowered' in terms of seeing that extra dimension.

I dunno, sorry Big, I didn't want to drag that discussion over here but not everyone has seen my thread. I'd just like to get more ideas on what the EMS crowd believes Jacob's true power is.

If he literally sucked 815 out of the sky, isn't that more than merely 4D power? I really don't know.

Thirty-Fiver said...

Sorry Big, I don't have time right now to read through the comments so if this has been asked, I apologize.

I'm having a little bit of trouble understanding your post. I get what you're saying in that 815 is the original timeline. But if what we saw in S1-5 is the alternate reality, and it depends upon Jughead exploding, than how does the ALT initially get created?

Cause what I'm picturing is, we're in the original timeline. The Losties are in Australia boarding 815 and on their way to LA. There is no button for Desmond to fail to push so the plane arrives right on time at LAX. And then everyone moves on with their lives. So where is the cataclysmic event that causes an alternate reality to be created?

I hope I'm not being an idiot and thinking about this too hard with the answer right in front of me. It's late, I'm tired and I still have things to do so it's possible I'm overlooking something.

Great post as always, Big.

Greg Tramel said...

i think the Incident and in turn the need for pushing the button in The Swan happened in both timelines and i think the Losties ending up on the island happens in both timelines, WHH

IMHO The Incident is separate event to whether or not Jughead detonates however i do find Juliet's double bind dilemma interesting even though the theory insists she does detonate the bomb since we have we have already seen the alt timeline in Season 1-5 which only happens if the bomb detonates so the bomb did detonate

but i think Des causes alt timelines but i still have issue with trying to label 1 the primary timeline, to me they are just alt timelines to each other

i think you answered your own question Thunderstorm, because of free will Jacob's power is limited BUT at the same time MIB's WHH power ironically makes Jacob more powerful

Greg Tramel said...

Thunderstorm, i don't think Jacob has any direct power to suck 815 out of the sky, he can move the pawns in place but it is still up to Des' free will to not push the button which in turn sucks 815 out of the air

Greg Tramel said...

i guess i would say destiny (MIB+Jacob) tops the power struggle between fate(MIB) vs free will(Jacob)

so Jacob's and MIB's power is a result of the powerlessness of Jacob and MIB

neoloki said...

Well, the new poster was revealed. It is quite beautiful if you like an abstract design. It has two I Ching hexagrams in the top right corner. The first is Revolution (molting) the second is water repeated and means Danger. I have been using the I Ching since I was 16. I don't know how spoilery this is considering it is not cannon nor is it done by an artist from the show, but it is appropriate and quite interesting.

neoloki said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bigmouth said...

Netprophet: Yes, I'm suggesting Seth might be in league with Jacob. But I really dig your contrary interpretation that Seth worked for the MIB, and that Smokey pulled a "Jack Ruby" to silence him. So, let's run with that for a moment and assume MIB was really behind the crash. I've long believed that MIB influenced Radzinsky to drill at the Swan site. So, what if Radz remained under MIB's control even after the Incident? A lot of people have wondered why Radz knew so little about DHARMA. But what if the BDM was really MIB's attempt to figure out what DHARMA was up to using Radz? Eventually, Radz realized he was a puppet and committed suicide, making Kelvin the MIB's new proxy. MIB influenced Kelvin to leave the Swan that fateful day, causing Oceanic 815 to crash. What do you think?

Thunder: No need for apologies -- our discussion there is directly on point. I hope you won't mind if I reiterate my description of Jacob's power for those unfamiliar. I don't think Jacob "sucked" Oceanic 815 out the sky in the sense of some kind of mental tractor beam -- that's what the Swan electromagnet was for. Jacob manipulated the plane into the vicinity of the Island (probably by knocking out the radio and maybe by influencing the pilot as well) then triggered System Failure (by making Desmond suspicious of Kelvin) which pulled the plane through the wormhole. If this all sounds a little Rube Goldberg, that's precisely the point. Think of Jacob setting up a giant game of Mousetrap with our Losties as the ball.

Thirty-Fiver: Jacob is responsible for creating the alternate timeline we've seen. If it helps, think of him standing outside of time and SIMULTANEOUSLY manipulating events in 1977 and 2004 to create a second timeline in which our Losties BOTH detonate Jughead and crash on the Island. Beyond that, questions like "initial cause" are meaningless because we're dealing with a time loop in which all events are causes and effects simultaneously. It's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Greg: I agree the Incident happens in both realities (albeit minus the bomb in the primary reality). But I emphatically disagree that the Swan protocol happens in the primary reality. Otherwise, there's no stakes whatsoever associated with detonating the bomb, which would incredibly lame storytelling.

Thunderstorm said...

Big, quoting your reply to Greg.
I know we've discussed our ideas elsewhere but just getting it out there for the sake of clarity for everyone.

"I agree the Incident happens in both realities (albeit minus the bomb in the primary reality). But I emphatically disagree that the Swan protocol happens in the primary reality. Otherwise, there's no stakes whatsoever associated with detonating the bomb, which would incredibly lame storytelling."

1-
I thought your explanation of Jacob's simultaneous 'out of time' manipulation was that Jack and Co. were pulled into the primary reality in order to create the Tangent Universe from there?

And if so, doesn't the bomb still need to be there?

2- For those of us that believe that 815 is fated to crash:

The stakes of the bomb creating the Swan protocol in the primary (815 crashes) reality is that it, crashes their plane via predestination paradox (destiny fulfilled) and it simultaneously splits time into this tangent reality (which would have also always happened) where 815 doesn't crash.

If others like Big want to theorize that Seasons 1-5 is the Alt/Tangent, then there probably shouldn't be a Swan protocol in the primary timeline (where 815 would not crash), so I think that's consistent (as far as I can tell).

Bigmouth said...

Thunder: I'm not following you. Jacob doesn't "pull Jack and Co. into the primary reality" at all. There is a primary reality in which a version of Jack and Co. are living life as fate intended. Jacob uses his 4D power to change the outcome of various events simultaneously, yielding a second reality in which Jack and Co. are now part of a causal loop involving the crash and Incident.

The only thing that gets "pulled" into the primary reality is Juliet's consciousness during her tour of terror.

Capcom said...

I think that the new poster is quite striking Neoloki. Not my VISA's cup of tea though. It also kind of reminds me of the wrap-around for an energy drink can. Not knocking it, just sayin'.

Thanks for the translation of the I Ching.

Greg Tramel said...

i'm thinking The Incident predicated the Swan Protocol instead of Jughead so pushing the button is required in both timelines

but Jughead is still integral to the story, look how much we are talking about it

Greg Tramel said...

guess i'm not getting why y'all are saying the Swan protocol can't happen in what y'all call the primary reality/timeline aka fate's reality/timeline

i think fate plays a role in both alt timelines (i don't really think there is such a thing as a primary fate-based timeline but rather many alt timelines driven by fate and free will)

i must be missing something

Capcom said...

OT: for the Tokyo poster news....Hiroki and Tim just went to the store to see what they've got (bags, psters, Apollo bars) and they don't know a thing. It was supposed to be a US/Japan reveal of some sort at the same clothing store. Here is a picture of Hiroki trying to explain to the manager, via the website that says they should know: modified by Congested, at LostARGs.

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/1112/gtfonq.jpg

neoloki said...

Yeah, Capcom, this poster seems to be somewhat divisive among fans. Either people love it or do not care for it. The image is simple and loaded. it is about symbols and not depiction. Also, it is a design that has a message from the colors, red and black to the I change and hieroglyphics and also the swan. Notice the Swan not only represents itself and the hatch, but also it represents the Island. The shape and it's position on the waves. Interestingly enough it also appears to be on fire. Look at the shape of the body of the swan. This idea is duplicated by the hexagram Revolution (molting) which is made up of the trigrams Li (fire) and Tui (lake). The hexagram is pertinent in and of itself because Revolution not only refers to a political uprising and change, but also, the molting of an animals pelt. One thing changes to it's opposite like the caterpillar to the moth.
My paintings are about archetypes, so maybe that is why I have taken to this poster. However, isn't that what is at Lost's core? The power of the archetype? The power of the symbol, and conversely the creative position of the iconoclast?

neoloki said...

That should say, "red and black to the I Ching and hieroglyphics..", but my computer keeps changing it.

KoreAmBear said...

Sorry bout that Big. It won't happen again.

All this LOST filming going on now reminds me of the rendering that goes on when loading up a youtube video ahead of the actual playback of the video. Right now the rendering bar is kicking some major butt. I guess it gets up to about halfway and then the video starts playing.

Capcom said...

That's a great description of this week's poster, Neoloki! It's funny how these designs are being accepted. Even for me, some that will make me go "Ugh" have other people saying "I love it!" and vice-versa. It's the eternal nature of art vs the eye of the beholder.

And, that we already have a preconceived vision (TPTB's) of what Lost looks like, so it was very bold of TPTB to ask contemporary artists to give their separate take on visuals that have
already been "set in stone" on the show. In our brains we have green, lush, ocean, mystery, obfuscation, etc. Then when the poster presents something different than what we've seen, it's hard to fit into the mold that's been created. JMHO.

Maybe after all is said and done, TPTB could make a graphic book with all the posters in it. I have a feeling that after the show is over, the artwork will all have been accepted.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, glad you mentioned the chess game at the end of S2. What might be a tell from that is that the two men were so into the game that they didn't see the info from the Island right away. This could equal Jacob and MIB being so intent on their game of manipulation that something happens under both their radar. Could be Ilana's group, Desmond, the 77ers, or the zombies. Maybe all of them in the "they're coming" line will converge (think Flannery O'Connor) within the first few episodes. I'm curious as to if, like those two chessplayers in the Antarctic, Jacob was unaware as MIB, re the "signal" that the guys from the station saw too late.

I think we were meant to see that comic book cover Richard brought with him to Locke's place, if only because it showed a guy seeing something from above the clouds. That is the 4D aspect to me. Capcom knows about the interior stories, because her discussing it was the very first post I read on her blog. I believe one of the stories did involve two guys on a plane playing chess, or at least a board game.

Off and on, I've wondered if the use of listening stations was a direct reference to the Whispers, i.e., listen for clues. Capcom, you recall the interior of MYSTERY TALES#40, right?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

By the way, I get the impression that by now there are spoilers all over the place. I'm curious as to where everyone gets this info, though I think someone leaks info to DarkUFO. Or used to. KoreAmBear (you did not really post a spoiler, in my mind, I didn't read anything into it), at that event you attended last Sunday, did anything come of that that amounted to hints or spoilers? Do you think it was like a Comic-Con panel, or better or worse?

Capcom said...

Ohhhh, I'll have to go and reread that comic again, Wayne, good idea!

The site that KAB posted belongs to the guy who lives in Hawaii who goes to the filming sites and takes pix of the sets and whatnot, that allow visitors. It's usually just buildings and random things on the beach, he got pix of the CS funeral scene and Jin's toy shop that would have been spoilery for someone who does not want to see anything.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

OK, Capcom. But I meant in general, are the spoilers coming from TV Guide or that Kristin girl, or are these speculative spoilers.

Going back to 4D mode, we all everbody exist in 2D as simple bits of information, we just live and breathe in 3D. I've been thinking that ever since I knew what a pixel of data was. Jacob and MIB in 4D would explain how Jacob touched everyone, MIB could be MIA because he is in 4D and "we" can't see him.

Capcom, I was going to direct everyone to your blog, but I can't recall the exact date (or month, even) of your entry. I recall a few people (including me) saying that there is no way the producers would be so blatant as to suggest a chess game by two men, yet they've been pretty blatant all along,in a fashion. We just never knew Jacob had a counterpart.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

When I mentioned back when about the early flashbacks being the tangent reality, it could be amended to fit the Comic-con videos. That is, some characters' flashbacks could be the same in both realities (Boone & Shannon, Ana-Lucia, even Sayid), others would have deviated. Sawyer might have been the con man, but Kate killed the wrong guy. Jack and Christian were the same bickering dad & son team.

So if S6 is about the will to choose between their individual fates, as I've suggested, several characters may not have to choose for themselves, but for the sake of the others (no capital O). The greater good, and all that. That could be Jacob's ultimate goal, to make the chess pieces move independently without his, well, touch.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Sorry, still playing catch up on these comments. Meant to ask:

Greg, I use free will vs. determinism, you use free will vs. fate. Do you see a difference, or is that just your wording.

And why hasn't anyone replied to my suggestion that we see Bernard naked in the jungle. Could happen, you know. Vincent swipes his clothes when he is at the lagoon. Yep. Could happen.

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, i think there is a bit of a difference between fate and determinism but here i generally think of them as interchangeable

this guy reposts spoilers from DarkUFO and ODI so i usually read them here

Room 23 Spoilers

also i read spoilers here

Lyly Ford

i'm back in Houston

Greg Tramel said...

i'll pass on seeing Bernard naked but i still haven't given up hope for Juliet

Capcom said...

Here's my Mystery Tales post. All my post is good for is the link to the comic, which is luckily still there online. Actually we should copy/print all that out to keep it just in case it disappears.

I still have not decided if A) this comic was accidentally found by a bunch of spanish Lost/comic nerds who happened to find in on Ebay immediately (coincidentally!)after it's mentioned in the show and then the ARG; or, B) TPTB found it, wrote it into the show, and then the ARG, and made up the story about the spanish guys finding it, so they put it online to add to the DWY ARG. I'm leaning towards item "B" just because I'm a skeptic.

Capcom said...

P.S. How's this for the alternate scenario...Bernard is back up in the tree again after the crash and...nekkid. :o) Poor Bernard.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Well, Bernard would certainly get a nice tan from up there. Capcom, I never truly believed the story about the Spanish kids and eBay--they even posted links on Twitter-and rather believe that it was a comic that fit the scheme of the show, and it was a legit deal.

There are enough hardcore geeks out there that could name and find a comic that had a needed element. There is also a comic database and one could look for any comic that fit the time frame of Locke as a kid. I mentioned to a few of you a character called Prince Ra-Man, and the Wikipedia entry brings the Island's possible sentience, Smokey, Christian, and a few other things to mind. I doubt if any comic from the 60s had the noirish covers of the 50s. Just sayin' that the right person could find the right comic. Of course he would then be killed before he could spoil the big S6 secrets.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, re: spoilers, what I mean is, where are the two sites you mention getting the spoilers FROM? I guess that's my question, if some of the spoilers are purely speculative, i.e., someone hearing something and then reposting it as gospel instead of gossip.

I'm just curious because I just don't get why an avid viewer would want to know anything at all. That's just the writer in me, why read the last chapter first. I can imagine me on FLASHFORWARD, my luck my FF would be watching the 13th episode of S6.

3D said...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I'm just curious because I just don't get why an avid viewer would want to know anything at all. That's just the writer in me, why read the last chapter first. I can imagine me on FLASHFORWARD, my luck my FF would be watching the 13th episode of S6.

I read spoilers because I like to know tidbits about what direction the show is heading in, so I can debate and theorize with people.

I stay away from the big stuff, the WTF twists, the deaths, and things like that. And I have gotten pretty good at seeing some without seeing what I don't want to see.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, the spoilers are mainly filming reports which people stumble upon (or purposely seek out)and can be very vague and open ended and nowhere near conclusive, some of it will end up on the cutting room floor anyway, also it sounds like they may film some fake scenes as well

so to answer Wayne's question it is just reporting what somebody saw being filmed, occasionally i think there is some filming info leaked by a crew member

so for the writer's analogy it is somewhat like listening to the writers sketchy ideas that MIGHT happen in the final book or maybe a vague review of bits of sections in an early draft

it's nothing like watching the completed series finale (or reading the last chapter of a book)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx 3D and Greg. My analogy might have been off, based on a few spoilers going back to the DarkUFO post involving the first flash fwd episode. But you know what I'm trying to say, I mean like I work on a book for a year, but a reviewer than gives away the ending (or close to it) in a legit review column (i.e., not a blog, not trying to write it wrong here), and it affects any potential buyers or 'maybe/casual' readers. I don't that the producers give a damn who knows what, though I could see it happening with films. STAR TREK, I think, was a good example. Someone just threw that info right out there.

But how would I know what is a "little" spoiler w/o accidentally seeing a bigger spoiler? I remember checking out SpoilerFix back in the day, and some of the info was just that, filming tidbits or casting info. I recall the latter in regards to Alex, thinking, hmnnn, a 16 yr old girl. That would intrigue me (Aaron was the only non-adult at the time), but not really spoil it for me.

I'm just on this because I like me a good discussion, but, like here, one that is full of maybes. Now that Chicago's weather is turning grim(mer), I'll likely be online more often. So there you have it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Sorry, the "WTF twists" as 3D called them. That is what I want to avoid, which also plays into the ST film and my book review analogy. THAT kind of thing I don't want to stumble upon.

Capcom said...

Me either.

FYI, here is Lostpedia's list of moments when chess has shown up in the story:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Chess

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, for you i'd stay away from spoilers altogether

i will email you a minor one every that i find interesting but i don't feel gives anything really away once in awhile so we can discuss

i agree, damn reviewers can sometimes spoil books and movies

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Glad my analogy was better the second time around. Send the mini-spoiler my way, with the colder weather I need the brain food. Maybe it will be something that Big would one day think could be discussed as a post. Or another minor spoiler, perhaps. Or both. Etc.

Capcom, thx for the chess link. I had meant to go look that up myself, then was sidetracked by a ghost story I need to write and email by midnight yesterday.

KoreAmBear said...

@Wayne there were absolutely no spoilers during the LOST event. It was really controlled and Damon and Carlton shut anything down that remotely was a spoiler -- they joked about how conscious they were of them.

@Capcom those pics that the blogger from Hawaii posts -- they are either by him or his network of friends that go LOST hunting. The LOST people basically hunt you down and call you out of there, usually, if they see you snapping pics. But they don't really have anyone dedicated to doing that so I believe they are not as worried about it as they appear to be. They definitely could be shutting down any pics if they really wanted. One time I went right up to the scene where Faraday was graduating from Oxford and he kissed Theresa (that didn't make the cut) and I snapped a couple of shots. All the production guy told me was, "hey, ur not supposed to do that." He didn't threaten me or even actually told me to stop (altho I did of course). But it was relatively liberal around there.

Anonymous said...

ok having watched season one frist 10 episodes....

john and jack have been there and done it all before

kate is always in stress as if expecting soemthng bad to happen all the time...

also.....when sayid plans the antena radio thing with the three flares...locke is chasing wildboar with charlie...there is no possibility that locke can know waht plans sayid may have...he is never at the beach when sayid plans this and is never at the beach when sayid and his team set off in the middle of jungle....locke is chasing boar and helping charlie with his drub abuse and it is impossible for him to know where sayid and others are going..and its impossible to know where sayid went...but he still finds him and takes him out...

how did he know :

a) sayid;s plan
b) how did he know where sayid would station himself

the direcrot/stroyteller....never shows me that locke has knowlegde of sayid;s plan....

so is it really locke? or have they made an error?

Capcom said...

Neat info KAB. And I guess that there's not much that TPTB can do when they are filming outside in public, like at CS's funeral, etc.

Interesting points, Anon.

BTW, if you all haven't been following the #10 poster events, something really great and friendly happened to Our Man In Japan, Hiroki, who went to the clue event to the Ron Herman store last week for naught. But everything turned out amazingly in the end. Check out the posts on it at Lostargs.com, they are really something, including Hiroki's thankyou letter to the Argies. It really gives you a little hope for the world.

:-}

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Anon, I might assume that as creepy as Locke was in S1, which he truly was, between his interest in Walt to having a whole bathtub full of knives that somehow made it through airport security, he did seem quite off, particularly when I rewatched S1 after S4 had ended. My thought would be that Locke was hunting and he seemed very good at listening for sounds, and he might have been close enough to hear and then see from behind the trees what Sayid's plan was. For condensed storytelling, I'd think that maybe Sayid took more than just the screen time to go over the plan.

I've never been able to get fugitive Kate's being able to track people at all, but they needed a person that could do that. Jack would walk into a tree. Re: Locke and his being able to find the boar and then somehow track down Sayid is one more addition to how well he seemed to know the Island from the very first day, which we didn't "get" until many episodes later.

Some of us have suggested that MIB might have been involved with Locke since the beginning. I'd want to bet that, from his bucket of knives, the last one he had left was the one used to kill Jacob.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And thx for the event update, KoreAmBear.

Greg Tramel said...

:( i'm back at work after my 2 week vacay in Philly

the chess meme continues

CHECKMATE - Lost Retold

Bigmouth said...

Anonymous: Welcome! You are more right than you realize with your speculation but probably not for the reasons you think. I'm reluctant to say more because I don't want to spoil it for you. As for your specific question of how Locke had knowledge of Sayid's plan, have you considered the possibility the Island told him?

Greg: You're absolutely right that fate operates in all timelines. Any differences between primary and alternate timelines are the result of Jacob's interference. The primary timeline reflects what reality looks like with no such interference. The alternate timeline, by contrast, is a mix of fate and Jacob's changes. The Comic-Con videos imply that the crash of Oceanic 815 is one such change.

That's the main reason why I'm skeptical that the button protocol happens in all timelines. If so, Jughead really has nothing to do with Oceanic 815 crashing. But then how can the Incident be any kind of nexus between two timelines? If the Incident occurs regardless, won't the plane crash regardless, too? That only works is if the Comic-Con videos are pure misdirection, which I seriously doubt.

Neoloki: I liked the latest poster, too. In fact, I logged on to purchase, but it was already sold out. My favorite, though, is still Locke.

Wayne: I've read the comic. As I recall, the most relevant story is about a guy who has a flashforward of a catastrophic bridge collapse and tries to prevent it. At first, he finds himself unable to deviate from his vision, but I think he ultimately averts the disaster. I could be wrong about the resolution, though.

Capcom: Interesting...I'm a little skeptical of the conspiracy angle. If TPTB wanted to leak the comic to fans, I feel like they would have found a better means of distribution. As I recall, you had to download the comic in pieces that were all out of order -- it was a real pain to read the thing. Besides, LOST has a lot of Spanish viewers, and I could totally see rabid fans scouring the internet for copies of the comic.

KoreAmBear: No worries! I didn't mean to single you out -- others have posted spoiler links, too. Just to reiterate for anyone who's still unclear, no spoiler links period, except on posts with (SPOILER) in the title. I also want to be clear that I personally have no problem with spoilers and urge people interested in them to check out Dark UFO's spoiler blog, which is the best of them all by far, imo.

Greg Tramel said...

"If the Incident occurs regardless, won't the plane crash regardless, too"

nope, i think the button gets pushed in what y'all call the primary timeline

Greg Tramel said...

i also think Jacob is active in both timelines

Greg Tramel said...

i'm also leaning towards Jughead never actually detonates

Jughead may be the misdirection, i do think the comic con videos are a bit of a hoodwink long con BUT i do think a timeline exists wherein 815 doesn't crash in 2004

Greg Tramel said...

the Dark Tower meme continues

Damon Lindelof Is Still "Lost"

this should be on the I Hate My DVR post but on the subject of comics i watched the producers Flashcards on the ABC FlashForward website

an interesting nugget is D Gibbons is a shout out to Dave Gibbons, the illustrator of The Watchman graphic novel by Alan Moore

Bigmouth said...

Greg: I'm sorry...I'm just not following you. You think the difference between primary and alternate timelines is whether the button is missed or not? How do you think they'll depict this?

Also, what's the basis for your belief that Jacob is "active" in the primary timeline? What does he do, and why?

Greg Tramel said...

i guess it sorta boils down to where the 2 major tangent universes split, i'm thinking the major split into 2 major tangents is at flight 815 traversing the island

we've seen the one with 815 crashing

in the other major tangent begins with 815 not crashing

so actually i guess Jacob's touching of the Losties before 815 happens before the split

it gets a little tricky to try to explain with the before 316 Jacob touches but i'l mull it over

Greg Tramel said...

an example i've given before is Dingbat pushes the button while 815 with Dingbat on board flies over without 815 crashing

Greg Tramel said...

Big, so would the alt tangent timeline split/start right as Jacob touches the 1st Lostie (i think Kate would be the 1st Jacob touch that we have seen so far, right?)

would the primary timeline start with Kate steeling the lunchbox but this time when she got caught she doesn't get to keep the lunchbox and in turn does not bury the time capsule?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Real quick here, its late. Of all the Con videos, as I've said before, I belive the Oceanic one is the red herring. It is too easy a dodge because "The Incident" was all about that event. Quantus, I would believe.

Also, re: Jacob. If he and MIB are 4D, they are above the timelines, too. You think? I think the 4D stuff will simply be explained as omnipresent, if at all. I kinda get that the casual viewer might think that already.

Jacob NEEDED Kate and Sawyer, he touched them as kids, knowing full well it was his actions that helped put them on their respective roads. Jacob made little Kate think she'd always get bailed out of a jam. Jacob gave Locke life in LA, MIB gave Locke life on the Island. (My theory has always been, since rewatching S1, Locke died on impact, and it was MIB, not the Island that not just gave Locke the ability to walk, but to bring him back to life.) I'd be curious if we'll see that Jacob touched anyone else. Charlie. Desmond. Brother Campbell.

Big, I'd SWEAR there was something about a chess game or something on an airplane, Capcom was writing about it when I first saw her blog. Commenters were saying, oh no, they wouldn't tip their hands so blatantly. I need to read the blog and backtrack. Funny how we mused about if Faraday knew Eloise back then...

Thunderstorm said...

Big, quoting you, just trying to understand the idea (still, I guess)

"Thunder: I'm not following you. Jacob doesn't "pull Jack and Co. into the primary reality" at all..."

So the entire excursion into the past is the Tangent, quite literally everything S1-S5. I know you've said as much but I'm just ironing out the idea.

From the earliest we've seen (Miles and Co. seeing the back of the Taweret statue) to the hours right before Jack and Juliet did their Jughead thing, this was ALL the Tangent Universe?

I can see the idea of predestination paradox from the same universe (Tangent Sayid - Tangent teenage Ben), but to have an entire alternate universe pop into existence (possibly) hundreds or thousands of years before it's ever created...I am having trouble understanding.

Jacob picks a point in time (let's just say the earliest we've seen- when Miles flashed to see the statue/Locke pushed the wheel once last time) to 'choose' the beginning of this Tangent Universe? Knowing that he would just have to get them to 'create' it themselves much, much, much later? Is that the gist of it?

Since we are talking predestination paradox, couldn't it be said that both the Losties AND Jacob created the tangent universe (relative to where you want to observe it)?

Thunderstorm said...

Sawyer was the earliest touched.
This was AFTER he first showed up there. 1976. Just for sake of clarity, every person touched was touched AFTER they first showed up.

I theorize he touched them because they showed up (telling him who was available to him), I am still in denial about Jacob's true power. :)
Even if we make him 4D...3D humans have power over 2D objects but we still can't violate certain 2D 'rules', right?

Of course, if we make him have certain 'powers'...then it's so open-ended, it's hard to play any kind of logic with it. Don't get me started on the 'free will' angle. :)

3D said...

Blogger Thunderstorm said...

Sawyer was the earliest touched. This was AFTER he first showed up there. 1976. Just for sake of clarity, every person touched was touched AFTER they first showed up. I theorize he touched them because they showed up (telling him who was available to him), I am still in denial about Jacob's true power. :) Even if we make him 4D...3D humans have power over 2D objects but we still can't violate certain 2D 'rules', right?

I think it's safe to say that "before" and "after" would be irrelevant terms for a theoretical four-dimensional being.

It would be like "forward" and "back" for us. A Flatlander who lived on a 2D plane which traveled slowly through the 'depth' dimension -- let's say one inch per second -- would experience the passage of 3D the way we experience the passage of time. We would laugh at him if he tried to assign relevance to the order in which he passed through 'depth' space, because we can pretty much freely do it at will.

4D beings would similarly laugh at our distinctions between 'before' and 'after' since these terms have little meaning to someone who can travel freely through a 4-dimensional space.

3D said...

Thunderstorm said...

I can see the idea of predestination paradox from the same universe (Tangent Sayid - Tangent teenage Ben), but to have an entire alternate universe pop into existence (possibly) hundreds or thousands of years before it's ever created...I am having trouble understanding.

It's not popping into existence... all possible tangent universes exist (just like all particles exist in all possible states at the subatomic level). Observing those particles causes the particle in our universe to 'collapse' into the one state observed.

3D said...

Blogger Wayne Allen Sallee said...

But how would I know what is a "little" spoiler w/o accidentally seeing a bigger spoiler? I remember checking out SpoilerFix back in the day, and some of the info was just that, filming tidbits or casting info. I recall the latter in regards to Alex, thinking, hmnnn, a 16 yr old girl. That would intrigue me (Aaron was the only non-adult at the time), but not really spoil it for me.

I mainly read spoilers at DarkUFO's site. He is really responsible about putting major spoilers behind optional walls that you can decide whether or not to click through. Sometimes I'll read half a sentence, and realize this is something I don't want to read; and then stop. But that's rare.

3D said...

Blogger Greg Tramel said...

i'm also leaning towards Jughead never actually detonates

I believe that Jughead 'detonates', however, there is no nuclear blast because of the magnetic anomaly. The two forces neutralize each other enough to prevent the Swan drilling to cause a disaster (this is why the 815 chain of events was manipulated by MIB or Jacob), and the remainder of the energy is controlled and gradually released by DHARMA through the Swan.

Jughead may be the misdirection, i do think the comic con videos are a bit of a hoodwink long con BUT i do think a timeline exists wherein 815 doesn't crash in 2004

As I said in a previous comment I think all possible timelines exist. And I think Jacob/MIB have the ability to travel fifth-dimensionally and circumnavigate these different spacetimes. By detonating or not detonating Jughead, Juliet may be or may not be 'collapsing' the non-815-crashing timeline into her frame of reference.

Greg Tramel said...

Thunderstorm, thanks for correcting me that Sawyer was touched before Kate, but i'm a little unclear what you mean by "AFTER they first showed up"

do you mean AFTER 815 crash when the Losties 1st showed up on the show or AFTER the Losties were shown as younger kids before Jacob touched them?

3D, i agree after and before means nothing to Jacob (& MIB IMHO) and in turn Jacob and MIB are active in multiple timelines/tangent universes

when i use after, before and at the same time i generally mean in relation to the Losties

Greg Tramel said...

3D, "I believe that Jughead 'detonates', however, there is no nuclear blast because of the magnetic anomaly."

that part works for me but for now i think on the flipside Jughead does not neutralize the magnetic anomaly BUT i'm very close to being convinced you are right, i just need a little push

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Bigmouth:

I haven't had a chance to respond to your last suggestion re: MiB's potential influence on Radz and Kelvin. Without taking things too far afield, I must say I really enjoy such "what if" scenarios, especially in light of the chess game perspective.

We know Jacob intervened and literally touched a number of the pieces. Will we see that MiB did the same with Seth, Radz, Kelvin and others? My guess would be that his influence isn't as gentle as Jacob's subtle pushes. Could Ethan's bizarre behavior be a sign that he was "touched" by the MiB? Who else might be a pawn in his gameplan?

Maybe even some of our beloved Losties were set into motion by the anti-Jacob. What if Charlie's heroic demise was really set up by MiB's desire to have him stop the jamming signal so the freighter could arrive? Or how about Eko? In restrospect, his first encounter with the Smoke Monster could have been an evaluation of his potential to be manipulated via his guilt over Yemi as well as his faith. When he later asserts himself to Smokey and refuses to buy into the Yemi act, he is disposed of. (Don't even get me started on how blind faith seems to have a big part of MiB's manipulation of Locke as well.)

One last thought on the divergent Primary/Manipulated Timelines arising from the incident. Everything that rises MUST CONVERGE, right? I think we're all clued in to the idea that at some point things, and the Losties, will be reunited. So maybe the "time" and manner of this event will be just as explosive - or implosive.

Greg Tramel said...

and i agree with you somewhat about all timelines existing BUT only in Jacob's and MiB's frame of reference

when i mention /alt/tangent/parallel timelines i always mean in the Losties frame of reference

guess where i differ is the tangents do not all exist always at the same time forever

i think that they have distinct start time (and some have a distinct end time as well) even for 4Ds even though time is irrelevant for them

and i think that is the million dollar question: when did the tangent timeline begin for the Lsoties in relation to what some call the primary timeline?

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne said "Locke died on impact"

there are a lot of people that would agree with you and it is very possible but i think the "real" Locke needed to experience time on the island for they story to take shape so i'm in the school that Flocke came into being sometime after "real" Locke turned the FDW

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i do think Jacob has touched much more than what we have seen such as i suppose he touched at least some of the Black Rock folk

touching Brother Campbell sounds interesting

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bigmouth said...

Greg: I removed your last comment because of the spoiler link. Please remember that spoiler links of any kind are prohibited on posts not marked SPOILER in the title.

Capcom said...

I posted that Wayne about a chess game on the plane? I'll have to look for it. My memory's a mess. I think it was last summer when we first met right? Hey, happy anniversary, heheh. :-)

I also feel that there isn't just a bomb going off and that it is affected/combined by the magnetic force there. For all we know, the Swan's failsafe could have also been some kind of bomb that "unplugged" (TPTB words, not mine) the artificially contained buildup, etc., mixing forces to cause the implosion (which I guess repairs it to make it more like its natural configuration before being tapped). TPTB had said that the DI released the forces, and then had to manually plug it up causing the buildup needing to be regulated. Not exactly the same as the pre-Swan event, but almost. The Pocket is tapped into, magnetic forces run rampant, an "explosion" happens mixed with the mega-magnetism, leading to perhaps the same thing happening to Juliet as happened to Des, as we've discussed. I guess how these two events are related to each other (i.e. if one caused the other, which caused the other, etc.) remains to be seen in S6. Can't wait. I'm not married to this theory, but so far it feels that way to me.

Right, the before and after angle is tricky. Like Miles said to Hurley, in the future they didn't remember their before-time on the island in 1977 because it didn't happen to them yet in their personal time loop.

Yes, particle-state, love it.

neoloki said...

It would get a little creepy if Jacob started touching to many people, don't you think?

All joking aside, it is more significant to the story and the characters if we just stick with the people he HAS touched. The more people he touches the less significance it makes.

The Island is definitely a dimensional nexus point and I am leaning at this point towards the ALT being a parallel universe and not a Tangent. The Jughead detonation/implosion, whatever, simply created a bridge for conscience skipping rather than actually "creating" a Tangent universe. The Island being a dimensional nexus would make it much more understandable for a couple four D characters and a smoke monster to be present.

Capcom said...

Yes, I agree. There's definitely the possibllity that we haven't seen all the Losties that he's touched yet. But it's too much work to speculate about who that might be, other than just assuming it could be any of them since they all seem to be there for a reason, even if in some cases only for their own reasons, e.g. Bernard and Rose.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thunderstorm, maybe my thought and Big's have intersected re: the tangent timeline, which might confuse a few. Myself, I've said that whereas everything we have seen until "The Incident" has been the primary timeline, ALL the FLASHBACKS from the first three seasons are from the TANGENT universe. Big is saying something different, but I don't want our thoughts to be strung together, I think Big means S1-S5 as a whole, whereas I think it is ONLY the FBs. This became clearer when I saw the CC video re: Kate killing the wrong guy. This would mean, in the alternate reality, Kate killed her step-dad. In the tangent reality, 815 still crashed, and I think at least a few of the characters led exactly the same lives in both realities. The point the tangents ended were, to me, when they were no longer FBs but flash forwards.

I can see the producers screwing with us like that, because we've been conned already. If we think that Jacob and MIB have been manipulating us, its more than just them.

MIB touches Brother Campbell, he somehow gets involved with Desmond, who then meets Penny, who then sails around the world to impress Penny, who gets stuck on the Island not "to save the world" but to ensure that Charlie lights up that beacon. To get the wheel turned by Ben and then by Locke. Convoluted, but it only happened over a few years, which is nothing to J. or MIB.

I wonder if MIB didn't also touch Malkin. In the second Claire FB, he seemed to say he'd always been a false psychic. Yet, in "Raised By Another," Malkin bought those plane tickets, he had to have known something. Of course, as with other titles, "Raised By Another" isn't just about Claire, Aaron, and Kate, but its about Locke and MIB, as well. Oh, these tricky bastards.

neoloki said...

I have started to look at the Malkin situation as Jacob or more likely Richard approached him gave him the necessary information and made him/paid him to manipulate Claire into getting on 815. If Claire is working with MIB, then it could have easily been him also.

neoloki said...

Given Claire's presence in the Cabin with Christian and the likelihood that Christian is Smokey now, Claire being dead, well it is not too much of a leap. LOL.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, YOU didn't mention it, it was in the comments. I think I'm wrong about a chess game specifically, but I know there was something involving a wager, someone commented about how crazy it would be if the ending of LOST was given away so blatantly. You had several posts on that comic book, might not have been in the first one. And a long overdue anniversary to you and a few others.

Neoloki, I agree the less the amount J. touched the better, but I've always seen the significance of Kate and Sawyer being the only two he touched as kids, before they became what the did. (Or at the exact moment that was on the cusp of their future lives.)

This goes with an observation I made Re: one of Jacob's lists, per Pickett. If Jack wasn't "on the list" and Hurley's only reason was to go back and tell the beach camp what had happened, then Jacob only wanted the Others to kidnap Kate and Sawyer in S2-3. I really would like to compare Richard's handwriting to Ben's seeing as how in the finale Ben says that Jacob has Richard bring him the lists.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, if the whole Brother Campbell thing started in motion the Desmond/Charlie deal, then Claire had to figure into it. Charlie was saving Claire. I don't think MIB manipulated Desmond's picture on the box, and, as noted above, I'd rather believe that MIB touched people than that Jacob touched many more people than the main O6ers.

neoloki said...

Concerning Jacob's lists, that is where things get muddy because it is not out of the range of possibility that Ben started making up his own lists to fulfill his own agenda. Jacob's involvement in the list that brought Jack, Kate and Sawyer to Hydra Island seems suspect at best.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And I'd honestly have to look back, but in the last few episodes of S5, Richard says to either Locke or Faraday that he has only been off the Island twice, though it has to be at least three times. I bring this up just to say that Richard actually does say that he has been off-Island a limited amount of times.

neoloki said...

Dead Claire vs Alive Claire could easily be two different people.

neoloki said...

I don't remember Richard saying that and it doesn't seem accurate. We see richard at Johns birth. Richard at Juliet's recruitment and when Ben shows Juliet the live video feed of her sister, Ben asks if Richard is ready, i.e., he was the one filming. that's 3.
Having said that, now that I am writing this down I am leaning towards MIB manipulating Malkin.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, others have agreed with you (or it might have been you disagreeing with me), that's why I mentioned the handwriting.

Plus, think about it, if Ben just needed an operation, why not just take Jack, period? Kill Sawyer outright if he was a threat, Kate, as well. Of course, that would mess the series up, if we didn't have the tension in the polar bear cages, plus Jack's seeing Kate & Sawyer on the video feed.

I'm hoping that the brunt of these observations are explained in one or two episodes (seeing as how one episode of J. opened the whole can of worms), but he touched Kate and Sawyer as kids and he had them on a list.

I'd agree that Jacob went further back in time once he saw K & S arrive in the past. Sawyer in 1974, before his father's death. Kate later, she's younger, and arrived in 1977. I think Sawyer is more important, Jacob maybe wanting to see if Sawyer had either free will or determinism. He could easily have gotten on that sub and killed Anthony Cooper stateside.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, Richard does say that, I've watched S6 over the last two weeks. But I think he is either lying or implying that he only was involved with two people, Locke and Juliet. I didn't make a note to myself because I took it to mean the latter, L & J.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

My real point, though, is to say that it is just J and MIB doing the manipulation, not Richard. Richard might act on J's behalf, but I don't think he gave Malkin the tickets. Richard was more like a recruiter, as Abaddon was.

neoloki said...

well, to put it simply, I agree with all of the above.
Jacob and MIB...the only touch that matters, lol. Yes, Richard always works at the beset of Jacob.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne et all, i am not quite ready to make the leap that MiB is involved in the touching

still reading through the comments but for now i say MiB has never left the island like Jacob is able to

i think it is only Jacob bringing folks to the island but MiB has to deal with them as well once they actually get on island

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, we have seen at least the whole mind thing, Desmond, Miles, Eloise, Minkowski, maybe MIB doesn't physically touch, maybe he mentally touches w/o leaving the Island, like Faraday giving Desmond his "it wasn't a dream" memory. He could have gotten into Malkin's head that way.

No argument, neoloki, but I'll be damned if I know when Richard said that line, and I would think it would have to be when he spoke with MIB Locke. I finished up "The Incident" on Saturday, but started it a week back. It wasn't really a stand out line, rather one I noticed because I pay so much attention to how little (until S5) Richard's lines occur.

Bigmouth said...

This is a little whackadoo, but is it possible that physical vs. mental touching is the crux of the difference between Jacob and the Man in Black? The implication would be that ALL of the dreams, visions, apparitions, etc. are associated with MIB. Are we willing to go that far?

neoloki said...

I am and it appears at first glance to be fairly consistent.

Bigmouth said...

neoloki: It sure does. If so, maybe MIB sent Desmond the flashes of Charlie's death to delay fate until it resulted in the Loophole.

Another thought re physical vs. mental touch: is that why Zombie Christian couldn't physically help Locke in the Wheel Well?

Greg Tramel said...

my mind is mush today so i'm sure i'm forgetting something

is Black Rock sailing the earliest event we have seen off island? (i mean we didn't actually see it leaving the dock but we saw it before it actually landed on the island so we have to assume it left a dock on earth)

Wayne, is the end the off island part of your version of the tangent timeline when they board 815 or 316 as far as what we have seen so far?

Greg Tramel said...

Big and Neoloki just to clarify,

are y'all saying MiB effects dreams off island?

i totally agree he messes with their minds on island

neoloki said...

Yes, re: Malkin's daughter having a dream of Yemi. Obviously, not speaking for Big.

Concerning, the Black Rock and where it took off from: this doesn't seem to matter, or that it is on Earth, seeing as the Island "jumps" in space/time.

Greg Tramel said...

ah, so for example Hurley seeing Charlie swimming at the police station in the 2 way mirror was MiB's doing?

hmm, maybe so

Greg Tramel said...

neoloki, i guess what i'm getting at is what is the earliest off island event we have seen on the show which if i understand correctly is where Wayne says his version of the tangent timeline starts

i think we have to separate the off island timeline(s) from the on island timeline(s) at least for my sanity

i guess if we go back to the parallel timelines idea it is a moot point though

Bigmouth said...

Greg: Yep, that's precisely the kind of vision I would attribute to MIB.

OK, so what about Kate's dream where Claire says "don't you dare bring him back"? Many have suggested Claire was referring to Locke, which would be contrary to MIB's goals. Does this mean Claire was speaking literally of Aaron? And, if so, why does MIB want Aaron off the Island? Could it be because Aaron is the Anti-Christ?

Greg Tramel said...

ok i can role with that very interesting idea since i don't think MiB has ever left the island in body

i'm thinking that Kate's Claire vision was literal meaning Aaron

hmm, antichrist, maybe

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, I don't think its a stretch if we think this, MIB can only do the mental touching bit with those who are susceptible to it. Greg pointed out Charlie in the holding tank (pun intended) while Hurley was in the, well, you know. So he could affect Malkin, that dude Rose and Bernard saw, even Desmond. I don't think he delayed the picture on the box, well OK, maybe so. He nudges Des to save Charlie each time UNTIL Desmond has a picture that shows Claire leaving the Island. He was mentally making Des save Charlie numerous times. The question is, if Claire was so important to the loophole, was the plan to have Aaron replace Jacob? Big's first (re)post here was about Aaron being the Messiah, back in 2004.

I thought about Mental MIB for awhile, not really saying anything because we haven't gotten his full story yet. But as of today I'm going with this as the main difference between J and MIB, and that MIB can only do the mental thing because he cannot leave the Island.

neoloki said...

I recently re-watched that scene and my first thought was MIB does not want Aaron back on the island. Maybe Aaron will have a role to play by the end.

Bigmouth said...

Interesting...I feel like we are close to a very important insight. Maybe MIB can't leave the Island because...drum roll please...he's been trapped as a ghost in the Cabin.

Greg Tramel said...

holding tank!, LOL, good 1 Wayne

i'm really liking this MiB mental manipulation notion

neoloki said...

or he was trapped seeing as the cabin was vacated then Iliana and co. burned it.

sorry if that is what you said.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And perhaps it can be said that Eloise and Widmore are analogues of Jacob and MIB. Think of it this way, one would have to believe that Widmore could really, truly get back to the Island. Yet he goes roundabout, getting the BR's journal, sending the freighter, maybe even other flyovers like Henry Gale. On the other hand, Eloise seems to know a lot more, or at least doesn't seem as outright dumb as Widmore. And both should be equally smart. Widmore, on the other hand, seems to show methodical patience with what he does, just as MIB does.

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: That would be quite consistent with the way Zombie Christian took Claire but left Aaron behind. Come to think of it...is that the key? Perhaps, per Malkin, separating Aaron from Claire results in great evil. How crazy would it be if Primary Timeline Aaron is like Bill Mummy in the Twighlight Zone?

You're not supposed to raise him, Jack...this presumably refers to Aaron, too.

neoloki said...

so if Jacob and MIB are 4d creatures is it possible their true form is formless? And the candidate that Lapidus is up for is the "body" for Jacob?

Bigmouth said...

Oh, wow, Wayne...I LOVE this notion that Charles and Ellie equate to MIB and Jacob. Were they supposed to be the Omega Point? Did Jacob's plan for them fail because of the Loophole, necessitating the union of Aaron and Ji-Yeon?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I wanted to say that Widmore had a mental block, but I think MIB needed him for the end result of moving the Island and causing the time skips.

Maybe it was MIB that made Keamy more psychotic than Widmore might have wanted him to be. Keamy and Radzinsky were alike in different ways.

neoloki said...

Keamy was always psychotic, and the choice and the unknown quantity he represented was the point, so to speak.

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: Formless 4D creatures makes sense to me. I've long believed that Walt's ability to project astrally was indication of our evolution to some non-physical post-human form like the Star Child in 2001: ASO.

Greg Tramel said...

ah! i like it, Aaron and Ji-Yeon take over the drive towards Omega Point where Widmore and Ellie failed

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

There is so much duality, Big, that there has to be analogues for MIB and Jacob. Today's discussion seems to be headed this way. Widmore is not so stupid as to think he cannot step foot on or find the Island on is own.

Drum roll indeed on the cabin. And if MIB can affect certain people, well, that is how he made Hurley see the fake cabin.

Widmore and Ellie could very well have been Jacob's Omega Point. Though I might add that he might have counted on Faraday and Penny being the continuation of the line, which would then get us to Aaron and Ji-Yeon.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, I was going by the comment that certain people were made more maniacal by MIB, perhaps Ethan or Radzinsky. I should have clarified: Keamy was nuts, but he became more nuts the closer he got to the Island and MIB's influence.

I'd still back up to say that it was people like Hurley and Miles and Malkin that MIB could affect.

Greg Tramel said...

i highly doubt that we have seen the last of Jacob so yes to formless

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Charlotte Malkin wasn't merely dreaming of Yemi - she was literally dead and met him at an "inbetween place". She said Yemi gave her a message for Mr. Eko, that we notably have never learned the contents of. Could she also have received messages for others, including instructions to pass on to Claire about Aaron?

As for other dream messages, could it be significant that a number of these messages were passed along by dead people? Boone to Locke, Anna L. to Eko, Charlie to Hurley, Libbby to Michael, just to name a few.

Even awake on the Island a number of people have interacted with the dead - Emily Linus and Ben, numerous people and Christian, etc. Could the MiB have some special reason/requirement to use the deceased, i.e. "I speak through dead people"? Is he a ruler of the Underworld, where shades of the dead run his errands?

Notably, if you go by the theory that Claire was in the cabin under the influence of MiB when Christian said Aaron was where he needed to be - in the process of getting off the Island - the dream warning to Kate not to bring him back makes perfect sense. Despite MiB's prior efforts via the Malkins to send him to be raised by adoptive parents, Jacob intervened to bring him to the Island. In turn, MiB had to get rid of him and take measures to make sure nobody brought him back. (Disclaimer: I never have believed Claire is dead, but it fits the premise for now)

I guess I could go on with more examples, but I'll end with Hurley's friend Dave. When Bigmouth mentioned mind touching, I couldn't help but think "touched in the head" meaning crazy. Could Dave's attempt to lure Hurley over the edge have been an attempt to kill off a person that was particularly susceptible/in tune with such communications form otherwordly sources? Could the special child the Others have been looking for have been looking for the same curse/talent (noting Richard's interest when young Ben talked about his seeing his dead mother on Island)?

Greg Tramel said...

maybe TPTB joke about Season 6 being the zombie season is not that far off

The Undead Conquer the World; Zombies: They're here!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

MIB was trapped in the cabin up until Ilana stopped by and saw the broken circle of ash. Someone here said that it was ash from the statue, which would explain MIB never being able to go inside the plinth as himself.

Any continuity errors we have seen we've found to be on purpose (well, most of them). They all ended up to be boxes. The cabin, the coffin, the base of the statue.

MIB caused that windstorm in the cabin this way, he was trying very hard to get Locke to see him, and quite possibly he was using that thought-power to ask Locke to help him. In doing so, and in anger over his imprisonment, he caused the quakes and the wind in the cabin. Much like Walt, when HE was angry, caused birds to fly into windows. (Adding to this, the Others wanted children to figure out the birth problem, I'll lay odds that Jacob "told" Bea Klugh that Walt was more than they bargained for BECAUSE he was too much like MIB, the first part being what was conveyed to Michael).

When Ilana goes to the cabin, we see quite a bit; after all, its daylight. The painting of the dog is on the floor, everything looked the way I assumed it looked back in 2004. And were we were shown several things in "The Man Behind The Curtain," the painting is one such thing. The jars of goo on the windowsill are missing when Ilana shows up. MIB took them with.

Will this goo be what he uses to re-animate the dead, if this is what we might expect in S6?

Greg Tramel said...

i've speculated the goo is some kind of voodoo mojo, it seems like voodoo and zombies are 2 peas in a pod so yes wayne, maybe reanimation fluids

Capcom said...

Maybe to take over dead peoples' bodies MIB has to exsanguinate them and keep their blood in the jars. j/k

:-p

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I also think of that hallucination-causing green glop that Locke slapped on Boone's head. Or the stuff that Locke smeared on himself in the sweat lodge. The cabin goo has to be combined with something.

Wackadoo idea #76: pour it down the rabbit hole, i.e., the drain that Ben summoned Smokey from for judgment.

Wackadoo idea #77: It was jam.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

By the way, the first nine minutes of V are on www.Hulu.com.

KoreAmBear said...

"neoloki said...
I don't remember Richard saying that and it doesn't seem accurate. We see richard at Johns birth. Richard at Juliet's recruitment and when Ben shows Juliet the live video feed of her sister, Ben asks if Richard is ready, i.e., he was the one filming. that's 3.
Having said that, now that I am writing this down I am leaning towards MIB manipulating Malkin."

Minor quibble -- remember that Richard was also at Locke's foster home when Locke was about 6 or 7 asking him "which of these belongs to you?"

Now did Locke really want to pick the compass but then his motivation to have some fun get the better of him by picking the comic and dagger?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

KoreAmBear, I originated that thread by misphrasing it, and neoloki was adding to what I said, Richard was alluding to recruiting two people, Locke & Juliet. The visit when Locke was six or seven, Locke passes up the compass for the knife that (maybe) Ben will kill Jacob with. Add to that the drawing of the swirly thing (Smoky) on the wall, then the way that Richard left so abruptly, I'd say that he was going back to Jacob to tell him that something was wrong. I'd say, the way today's discussion has been going, that MIB put some thoughts into Locke's head as a kid, from Smokey to being a warrior of sorts.

I want to reread the transcripts, though. I'd swear that the line in "The Incident" was "
I only left the Island twice." Still in all, I took it to mean twice as in for two different people.

3D said...

The stuff about Walt being an analogue to MIB got me thinking about whether Aaron (the other 'special child' of the Island) might be an analogue to Jacob. Or Jacob himself.

That would be one reason that Kate might receive the directive not to bring Aaron back to the Island (remember when the two bunnies met each other).

neoloki said...

minor quibble- Child Locke picks the vial of sand and then the compass as his own, moving each in front of him. The third choice was between the knife, the book of laws and the comic and he chose the knife. The choice seemed appropriate given Locke's "300" knives he brings to the Island.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

I hope its not rude of me, but some of the stuff about visions of and visitations by the dead brought to mind something I posted elsewhere a while back (prior to UnLocke being revealed as the MiB). For anyone interested - Knocking on Death's Door: Psychopomps and Doppelgangers

If the picture of the two entities seen in the Temple gives any clue to the identities of MiB and/or Jacob, there may be some support for the idea of why MiB communicates through the dead.

Greg Tramel said...

"moving each in front of him"

actually Neoloki that's a bit more than a minor quibble, i never read the scene like that, i needed to go back and watch it, very enlightening way to interpret the scene

Capcom said...

Malkin's character has always reminded me of the RitaMae (Whoopi) character in the movie "Ghost" where the fake medium gets used by the dead person for his task and then becomes a real medium for that event. Like RitaMae, Malkin seemed happy to bilk customers until something or someone happened to him. We always thought that it might have been the DI/Others who possibly swayed him, until MIB showed up and it all takes a new meaning now. I really like that MIB/Malkin idea.

I also really like your idea of why RA left little Locke's house in a tiff, Wayne. That is to say, maybe not so much in a tiff as it seemed, but more in urgency.

Interesting link, Net, I especially like the "weighing of the heart" point.

neoloki said...

Greg

I re-watched the scene just to make sure how I remembered it was how it happened and yes Locke unmistakably moves both the sand and the compass in front of him.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg and neoloki, like Capcom mentioned, I think Richard knew something was up. Like Locke was corrupted in some way, the drawing as his first clue. Richard even asks if Locke drew the picture. The comic was for show (the mirror image of the cover, at the very least), and wasn't there a book, as well?

Greg Tramel said...

yep, your right maybe young Locke knew TOO much wherein Richard got the heck out of there

Greg Tramel said...

yes Wayne a book

"The Book of Laws that Richard Alpert shows John Locke (at age 5)"

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

But the stuff with Locke still is on-topic in regards to if MIB is getting into people's dreams. As might have been the case when Kate saw Claire.

Where IS Claire? Did MIB tell her to do something before he left to finish his loophole? If she is still alive, did she stumble through the jungle and find the Temple? A thought I've been having, which goes back to the odd custom of the Hostiles taking the dead bodies, what if a certain amount of dead people can be healed back to life and they still stay in the Temple, maybe as the only way to live? Those like Colleen who were gut shot might be beyond help.

Greg reminded me about Ben saying the Temple was the last safe place on the Island, and at the very beginning of "The Incident," MIB Locke asks Richard if the group gathered comprised all of the Others, and he replied that there was another group at the Temple. Of course, MIB Locke couldn't tip his hand if he knew of what really goes on in the Temple.

"They're coming" might easily mean whoever is at the Temple. My wackadoo idea for the day is to ponder if Claire took the missing vials to the Temple. Maybe MIB wanted her to do something that would affect everyone in the Temple (think the Purge) and it backfires.

neoloki, you're still watching the early episodes, right? Anything in the flashbacks or dream sequences to show that just maybe MIB was screwing with people?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, the Book of Laws goes with sheriff Diana Scarwid and Juliet's branding, I'd think. Maybe people thought that back then, I'm not sure of the exact sequence of episodes.

NetProphet, I bookmarked what you wrote and will read it after my nieces get their fill of Club Penguin.

Greg Tramel said...

of course this intresting relook at the

Lostpedia: "test given to young Locke by Richard Alpert resembles the Tibetan Buddhist ritual used to confirm a reincarnated tulku"

opens up the can of worms about which timeline this test takes place in, i suppose it must be the tangent so i got it all wrong

back to the drawing board

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Crap. Going back to Richard and Locke. Richard approaches him in his teens. His teacher says that Locke is doing good in science, maybe the whole Mittelos Bioscience was set up with Locke in mind. Richard gets a phamplet to the school and doesn't come in person. He must know that Locke has gotten away from the knife thing and is getting locked in his locker (no puns intended)without getting revenge. But why mail it? To try a different approach? Was he worried MIB might find out about the 2nd contact?

neoloki said...

Wayne

I did my re-watch and am now waiting for season 5 to be released. Also, I pop in different eps. now and again.
The Charlotte Malkin and Yemi vision is the one that sticks in my craw. Although, I wonder if Eko's character was meant to be MIB's body in the original outline of his character.

What I am watching now is Deadwood,err, re-watching, and reading Blood meridian by Cormac McCarthy, but if their is anything you want me to check out concerning Lost, well, I love research.

Greg Tramel said...

Neoloki, i'll take you up on the offer or maybe Wayne knows for sure already based on his last comment

do we have confirmation that Richard was involved with sending the recruitment pamplet to Locke's school?

neoloki said...

yes the teacher says I spoke with a doctor alert.

neoloki said...

alpert, sorry.

Greg Tramel said...

ok, thanks Neoloki

i've always contended Richard only worked with Jacob and not MiB (i wasn't even sure Richard new about MiB but i suppose he must have) but we may need to relook at it since Richard went to so much trouble to bring Locke to the island

neoloki said...

I have associated Richard's interest in Locke as a consequence of Locke time traveling to 54 and telling Richard that he is the leader. Richard does express doubts as to Locke's specialness and if he was under orders from MIB, I doubt it would be a concern.

Greg Tramel said...

in case y'all haven't seen it already

Mysteries of The Universe - Parts 5&6

Thunderstorm said...

Been trying to familiarize myself with 4D beings, I realize the stupidity of my previous theory, that Jacob could somehow be 4D and not very powerful. If he were 4D, he would be God-like. Michio Kaku is always an easy and fun read, I'd probably read this before but you know how that goes...it never hurts to keep expanding the mind in any case.

Kaku on Higher Dimensions

If Jacob is truly 4D, he could have reached in and screwed with Jack's appendix all by himself. He could have literally "lifted up" those people from Flight 316. Not to mention whatever else...

I just see an issue with making someone on the show that powerful. It's less a question of what they can do and more of a question of, "why didn't they do this or that?"

Which plays into the idea of free will. Which I don't believe exists, so for me, I guess I need to stop calling Jacob 4D in my own theories. However, I think what Bigmouth and others are suggesting makes more sense to me now. Although, I really don't see any 'control' over it. He's either manipulating with his own hands, or not.

Thunderstorm said...

Let me clarify, I don't believe there is free will with regard to the Jughead being the Losties destiny.

In short, I don't believe Hurley had a choice.

And also, about 'control', I just mean inherent in the device, so whatever rules are in play, would be very hard to predict. As is, it would seem that 4D Jacob could do (just about) whatever he damn well wanted and placing control over him, well, I guess it's a guessing game.

Greg Tramel said...

enjoyed your post netprophet, gives a WHOLE new meaning to what lies in the shadow

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just had a Whackadoo thought and figured this was as good a place and time as any to share it.

This stems from my belief that (even in light of the recent "One Ben or Two" discussion) there are never really two clones/copies of anyone or anything seen in Lost - just overlapping versions of the same person or thing made possible via time travel. So in my view, the ComicCon video shows two Bunny 15's becuase one is the "present" Bunny and the other is the time traveler. A temporary condition that ends the moment present Bunny 15 steps into the time machine to become time traveling Bunny 15.

Now we clearly have two Locke bodies at the same time in the Incident (corpse and MiB). So two possible alternatives I come to are:

1). In fitting with my recent thoughts on MiB communicating through the dead, it may be that he can simply assume the identity of any dead person he wants at any given time. Thus, the apparition of Alex in the Temple very conveniently instructing Ben to strictly follow whatever Locke/MiB tells him (MiB notably appears very adept at exploiting feelings of guilt). But this example doesn't seem quite the same as the very real, sustained physical presence of MiB as Locke. And every other instance we have come up with in terms of dreams and visions that were possibly MiB in disguise also lacked any tangibility. Maybe a there's a limit to using dead people for physical tasks (zombies excepted?). Christian refusing to help Locke with a broken leg even stand up in the FDW chamber comes to mind. So that brings me to...

2). Maybe MiB is inhabiting the body of Locke who has time traveled from an earlier point in history. When could Locke have possibly had the opportunity to do this? Well, he does have a gap of a few missing years between turning the FDW and popping up in Tunisia, but the broken leg thing rules out any intervening activity. So how about when Desmond turned the failsafe key? Sky turns purple, Swan implodes and Des is sent on his little flash to the past. We have never learned what happened to Locke, Charlie and Eko other than they all experienced some trauma. What if Locke was pulled by MiB into the future where his body is/was "possessed" and used to carry out his scheme? With the task complete, Locke gets shipped back to a time shortly after the Swan event, albeit with a temporary loss of his voice.

How is that for a loophole scenario? Dead is dead, but if an alive you travels from the past you can be alive at the same time as well :)

Greg Tramel said...

yes, i agree netprophet, duplicates are a result of time travel since we have evidence of this with the 3 Lockes on island at the same time

Flocke, Locke in a box, Locke getting his bullet wound on his leg fixed by Alpert

and i suspect there is at least 1 Locke on earth while the 3 Lockes are on island

But which timeline(s) they are all in i have no idea anymore

Greg Tramel said...

ok, i not sure i get poster 11

is it saying Tom IS or is 1 with the Smoke Monster?

“Walt’s Kidnapping” by Drew Millward

Synchromystic Librarian said...

there may be a way to personify time travel with Egyptian death mythology/rituals

and then tie in mental manipulation (MIB)and physical manipulation (Jacob to an extent)

and in turn tie in free will and determinism

Capcom said...

I don't really understand many of the elements in the new poster either Greg. The raft looks more like the Others' tug, I don't know why the hand is there, the sideways head(?), and also what you said. Perhaps the artist was not very familiar with the details and the show? Don't know yet.

Although I wouldn't care for this one hanging in my house, I do like the style, it looks like the old style paperback cover artwork. It also looks like those paintings used in the Night Gallery TV series. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

i figure y'all have been watching all the Season 5 DVD extras posted all over the place

here is an old school vhs that was in the DI Inttiation Kit

VHS ORIENTATION FILM - LOST season 5 Dharma KIT

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Weird poster indeed. I saw a storm cloud, like, oooh, what's next? I can't knock the artist, but some of the posters are a bit off the mark. I thought storm cloud because some of the posters seem to reflect a specific scene, like the radio tower one. Maybe the artist interprets a scene a certain way.

Greg, I'll watch the link later, when I was in the Loop I picked up some Stan Getz Bossa Nova CDs at Reckless Records. Nice to listen to when it is 45 and raining...sigh.

Capcom said...

Neat, Stan Getz, does Astrid sing on any of it?

BTW, I tried to send a post of this on FB but I'm an idiot and it didn't work. If you like guitar music and/or the creative process of any art, go see the movie "It Might Get Loud" with Page, White and Edge, it's fascinating, or at least was to me. Saw it today and might see it again or buy it too.

Back to Lost...I thought that this poster conveyed the feeling of the raft getting attacked the way it did very well (dark, scary, helplessness) but I don't understand most of the symbolism. I'd have to have someone explain it to me I think.

lostmio said...

Greg: here is an old school vhs that was in the DI Inttiation Kit

A lot of that stuff is IMO Darlton just indulging their '70s nostalgia.

The '70s were my heyday too, but I'm over them.

lostmio said...

neoloki The Charlotte Malkin and Yemi vision is the one that sticks in my craw

Oh, mine too. The whole Charlotte near-death and message to Eko thing came on so strong but to date has never delivered.
I loved the actress who played Charlotte. She said that the moment/look that passed between her and Libby at the airport, after she delivered the message to Eko, was absolutely directed.
So much promise, such good acting, yet apparently one more dropped Lost plot line. I tend to think it was lost when Libby/Watros was booted and ever since has declined to play ball. I don't blamer her, yet it's all so sad and frustrating.

Watros/Libby and Anderson/Malkin were IMO way stronger actresses and characters than Schmuliet/Schmitchell.

lostmio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
neoloki said...

The poster, which I am not sure how I feel about it, is using the archetype of the big bad wolf/little red ridding hood. there is a very distinctive wolfs nose at the top and the wolf is holding the child in the palm of it's hand. There is smoke coming from a fire, the fire The Others set to let you know they are coming for you, which rises out of the boat which took Walt. It is about innocence that is forcibly taken from some one. The whole image generates out of the boat because that is the wolf which blew down the door, so to speak. It is fairly simple but a bit too muddy.
It is important to remember that these are not just scenes from Lost, but in some cases artist's interpretation of the scenes, and or interpretations of the themes of Lost. It doesn't have to be specific. In this poster, we have a scary group abducting a small chid and the means of intimidation they use. Thus the whole image being constructed from the means of intimidation.

I will have to see if this one grows on me.

Capcom said...

LOL, all of Lost's 70s throwback imagery gave me the creeps when in first began, Lostmio, LOTS of bad memories (and too many hippies!)for me from the 70s. But I think that I've come to sort of replace my 70s experience with TPTB/DI's 70s, and that's a good thing. Thanks for the Room23 experience TPTB! I do still like the old films from then, and the MOTUs and DI films are cool.

Capcom said...

Cheezwhiz, I just looked at the Kidnapping poster again, and it looked totally different and now my eyes saw all the imagery inside it, in the intended perspective. :-B

It was like looking at that old visual trick drawing called "Vanity" where the Victorian woman is sitting in front of her vainty, and if you look at it again, you can see a skull or the devil, I forget which. Wow. Different eyes of a different day, I suppose. I like it even more now that I can see everything in it. Good old Mr.Friendly, smiling like Santa Claus and all the while taking your kid.

Greg Tramel said...

neoloki, nice interpretation

i thought maybe he was trying to unify Smokey and the Others but maybe that is a stretch

Capcom said...

I don't see the wolf, but I like how foreboding Mr.Friendly looks in the smoke, even with his coconut hat.

:o)

Greg Tramel said...

i suppose Mr Friendly could BE Smokey

but i'm probably reading too much into it

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Nice info on the bad wolf, neoloki. I can see that, the hand part, but initially I read it as a big thundercloud, maybe because that scene was a cliffhanger. And art is all about interpreting, when I commented late yesterday I was saying that each artist picked the scene from the show they wanted to illustrate. I meant more the artist had a say so as opposed to those involved with the show saying, you, you will illustrate this, but whatever way you want.

Two things happened with Malkin and Yemi, Libby's story was never going to be told (from the writers strike as well as from Watros' saying no re: appearances), but I think, too, that Mr. Eko (the Triple A guy) wanted to be killed off because he didn't want to stay on the show. If we get an MIB close-up the way we did with Jacob, we might get to see enough to piece something together. I don't know that it is important for Libby to be seen again, but it makes little sense if Yemi is seen again. If we get an understanding within the show of exactly what MIB can or cannot do, we'll fill in the blanks with Yemi at the airport, and how it was Michael saw Libby, maybe a few others.

neoloki, there are some great scenes at the Sydney airport in Locke's sweat lodge dream. Some altogether great camera work, with Boone wheeling the "speechless" Locke in the chair.

Capcom said...

If TPTB ever write a book about their creative process and details of the show, I hope that they tell us what their original idea was for Eko, if AAA would have been around to continue the part. One thing that I would have liked to see about Libby, is whether her husband had some link to Widmore, Des, etc., as that would have been pretty cool. And, why she was in Santa Rosa. But I suppose that we could just say, she cracked up after her husband died, the end. But did she recognize Hurley, and why did she get that freaky look on her face when it was said that people can change.

Actually, I think that according to the artist of The Crash, TPTB did tell the artists which WCM scenes to paint, or, they got to choose which scene from the ones given to choose from. I forget, something like that.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I was thinking almost the opposite, that the artist would run an idea about the scene, or pick multiple ideas, and the producers would tell them which scene and let them run with it.

If we really just got Libby's last name, little things like that, I think we could take a leap of faith from there. Tougher with AAA, or ghost of Yemi, I suppose. For the most part, the writers are doing well with covering up the dead ends. Seriously, I'd love an MIB episode set up like the Nikki/Paulo one, where MIB was on Day 1, Day 50, Day 100. Won't be long...

Greg Tramel said...

Happy Dharmaween!!

Capcom said...

Exactly Wayne, if TPTB could just throw us a few more Libby crumbs, our fertile minds could fill in the blanks as we so choose. :-)

I agree too, that TPTB did a great job with the difficult loose ends. Those could have turned into some serious jump-the shark moments and TPTB did a great job of patching it all up as best as could be expected.

Great link Greg! Be sure to check out Jorge's site too, they outdid themselves as usual.

http://dispatchesfromtheisland.blogspot.com

Thunderstorm said...

Hello friends, they gave Libby's last name at Comic Con, during the 'In Memoriam' video of all those who have died. It's listed right on her page at Lostpedia, so I'll just say it. Smith. Which I suppose could just serve as a pseudonym if and until they were able to tell the rest of her story.

They also gave Karl's last name as Martin, as well, FWIW.

It's totally up to Cynthia Watros, whether we get Libby's story or not. They want to tell it.

Capcom said...

But is it her husband's name or her maiden name? That's the thing, I am hoping along the lines of someone (doesn't have to be Libby since Watros doesn't seem to want to come back) saying that there is a link between her, Widmore, and Des, i.e., did she really just "happen" to be there when Des needed that cuppa joe? Just so she could "happen" to give him the boat that he needed? I'd like to think that there was supposed to be more there, but circumstances intervened to nix it ever appearing in the show. :-(

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