Tuesday, November 03, 2009

Mommy Dearest...

I'm working on a longer post about the Loophole.  But I wanted to write separately to address a related thought I had some time back regarding Daniel's mommy dearest, Eloise Hawking.

Since the Variable, we've debated what kind of mother sends her only child to the Island knowing she will kill him.  In Three Black Swans, I suggested that Jacob convinced her this sacrifice was necessary to complete the causal loop that saves the world.  But it continues to bug me that Eloise never actually mentions Jacob's name.  Like Charles, she speaks solely in terms of the "Island."  I now believe she may be driven by guilt to complete the loop irrespective of any alliance with Jacob.

Eloise's guilt is a result of her participation in the Incident.  She helps the '77ers carry out Daniel's plan hoping it will erase the time loop leading to his murder.  When that fails, Eloise will peruse her son's journal and reach two tragic realizations: (1) their attempt to change the future actually helped effectuate his death, and (2) they're responsible for creating the extinction-level threat represented by the Swan Station.  From this, Eloise will conclude that the future can be changed, but only for the worse. 

You can see this lesson at work in her efforts to neutralize the Swan threat.  Thanks to Daniel's journal, she knows all about how Desmond will go to the Island, press the button, and turn the key.   Eloise watches over Desmond every step of the way for fear that any deviation from this sequence of events will change destiny's picture to yield some even more horrific outcome -- e.g., destruction of the world.  Her fears are very nearly realized that day in the pawn shop when Desmond buys the ring.

Here's what she says, followed by my translation in italics:

MS. HAWKING: Well, I know your name as well as I know that you that don't ask Penny to marry you. In fact, you break her heart. Well, breaking her heart is, of course, what drives you in a few short years from now to enter that sailing race -- to prove her father wrong -- which brings you to the island where you spend the next 3 years of your life entering numbers into the computer until you are forced to turn that fail-safe key. And if you don't do those things, Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead. So give me that sodding ring!

TRANSLATION: Listen, little man, I know exactly who you are and what you're supposed to do.  And you'd better do all of it -- every last bit -- or we're all extinct! 

MS. HAWKING: Because it wouldn't matter. Had I warned him about the scaffolding tomorrow he'd be hit by a taxi. If I warned him about the taxi, he'd fall in the shower and break his neck. The universe, unfortunately, has a way of course correcting. That man was supposed to die. That was his path just as it's your path to go to the island. You don't do it because you choose to, Desmond. You do it because you're supposed to.

TRANSLATION: Don't make the same mistake I did.  I tried to save my son's life by changing the future.  Not only did I fail, it made things so much worse.  You may think you're changing the future by proposing.  But that's just going to make everyone miserable, including your beloved Penneh.

MS. HAWKING: You may not like your path, Desmond, but pushing that button is the only truly great thing that you will ever do.

TRANSLATION: I know this sucks, but we all makes sacrifices for the greater good. I'm deliberately sending my son to the Island to die.  By my own hand.  His dying thought will be that his mother betrayed him.  So believe me when I say, I feel your pain.

The possibility that Eloise is motivated by guilt raises one last whackadoo speculation for you all everybody to ponder.  In recent posts, we've discussed how the Man in Black's manipulation of memories and emotions is the mental counterpart to Jacob's physical touch.  If so, perhaps the Man in Black exploits Eloise's emotions to help create the Loophole.  Maybe that's why Zombie Christian directs Locke to find Hawking in Los Angeles -- her guilt makes her amenable for coercion.

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Glad you brought up MIB and the possibility of his mental manipulations, Big. I do think this is something he is capable of, and if Eloise was being played with in such a way, it certainly explains her overly dramatic dialogue, particularly when she was in the Lamp Post.

That's the one thing that has bothered me most about her character, particularly once we had seen her in 1954 and 1977. You know, hey, we get it, lady. But if MIB could give her nightly nudges--his despair vs. Jacob's hope--that easily explains it. Also it covers my analogue (in a reverse way) of Eloise as hope and Widmore as despair.

Remember back in the days when dinosaurs roamed the world and you mentioned Chronal Protection Agents? Could it all be a result of MIB? We have discussed Malkin, but this could easily include Brother Campbell and a few others that are off my radar. Either that, or MIB nudged Eloise to meet with Brother Campbell to keep Desmond around just long enough to have him meet Penny.

As with Libby at Santa Rosa, it was simply too significant a scene to show that photo of Campbell and Eloise for it to be a throwaway.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And to clarify Eloise being dramatic, I should add that in her first appearance, at least to me, it was as if she was acting as a sentinel to the entire future, knowing when red shoes was going to die, etc. Then we see that her only true concern, back then, was Desmond.

By the way, could Eloise's knowledge of the future have been provided in some way by MIB? When she couldn't get flashes after Desmond was shot (however she explained it to Penny), did/does that mean MIB no longer had a use for her?

Greg Tramel said...

i've always wondered how Ellie just happen to be working at the antique shop and in general how she gets around

i think she is able to do some kind of timespace traveling

Greg Tramel said...

since Ellie and Charles never mention Jacob, i'm leaning towards they never had any contact with Jacob (and for that matter they never had any contact with MIB)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, a key scene is when Ben takes Alex and Richard pretty much overrides Widmore by saying Jacob OKd not killing Alex. Just seems like Richard can say just about anything and the leader is silenced. Ben being so selfish with Alex reminded me of Kate and Aaron. If, as Cassidy suggested, Kate was using Aaron as a surrogate for Sawyer, I would think Ben did the same with Alex replacing Annie.

Anyhow, that's all another thing, but I think Richard conveys more power than one might think.

dj said...

"By the way, could Eloise's knowledge of the future have been provided in some way by MIB? When she couldn't get flashes after Desmond was shot (however she explained it to Penny), did/does that mean MIB no longer had a use for her?"

I got the impression that everything she knew about the future came from Daniel's journal... and at this point, there wasn't any more in it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I agree with you there, dj, but I'm thinking more of how she knew about Red Shoes having the safe fall on him. I was just throwing it out there, the bit about MIB, and it is just as likely that Eloise couldn't see the outcome of Desmond's surgery simply because Desmond was/is a wild card. But there's no way Faraday's journal had anything about Red Shoes. She has that "power" from being born on the Island (I'm guessing), so why does it just click off? Again, just tossing it out there. It follows the post in the sense that if MIB was nudging her, could he also nudge her in a way to actually cause her distress by not knowing the future...

Anonymous said...

hi everyone gg13 here

eymesick i read your latest just now and 5 minutes prior to that i read your three black swan theory again..

on travellingthis summer i saw this book at the airport and picked it up thinking it might help me understadn what the hell goes on on lost....the book is called : black swan the impacto fo the highly improbable by some nicholas taleeb.

i read the first 20 -30 pages and didnt understand anything at all...so i checked around and this nicholas taleeb is considered some kind of guru in financial mathematical "p" like probabilities

do you know this book ? have you read it?

regards to all by the way. i guess the mythologi of the valenzetii s and and all the ambigious clues given between season1 and 2 will take part in seosan 6....alvar hanso and all that mittelof etc

Anonymous said...

another question

is all this weird science showed on lost taught in schools

kasimir effects and time paradoxes and black swans and vile vortices and such?

or is it still the same telling you how plants use the sun to grow and simple chemistry without any mention on these groundbreaking (for me first time i hear about them) science things

yes ok im no intellectual..i try to keep it simple..sorry for grammar and phrasing

i mean there is too much wackadoo out there to be ignored and not taughtand treated seriously ...2012 will the age of global awakening it seems...when all these new realities come to surface..i guess

Dakota said...

"Ben being so selfish with Alex reminded me of Kate and Aaron. If, as Cassidy suggested, Kate was using Aaron as a surrogate for Sawyer, I would think Ben did the same with Alex replacing Annie." -Wayne-

Thats a good point I never really took into account. I wonder how, or really if, they are going to elaborate on Annie anymore. Last season seemed like the natural time to see more of her

By the way Bigmouth, could we hope for updated FlashForward thoughts on your DVR blog? I felt last nights V premiere was stronger than any single sitting of FF has been so far.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

gg13, I can say that I learned of time travel and the like through books I read in grade school. We bought books from something called the Weekly Reader and in many cases our reading teacher had us discuss the books, and there were quite a few kids picking up the HG Wells book. A few years after that, LIMBO OF THE LOST was on the spinner rack at the supermarket, and I read that in the seventh grade. Our grade school wasn't progressive in the least, I was lucky enough to have several teachers who encouraged reading. Also, the school library seemed to have a large amount of science fiction books. Granted, we all knew we were reading FICTION. To an extent, in classes that deal with science and physics, I'd assume aspects of LOST can be brought up in the same way that those same topics have been taken from real life. Very little of the science aspect on LOST (minus time travel, whispers, smoke monster), is not based on what we already know.

I wouldn't have tried that book you bought at the airport because I know first hand that certain books are impossible for me to grasp. I really, really wanted to enjoy A BRIEF HISTORY OF TIME but it was more like a college assignment. Without the character of Faraday explaining things as he did, we'd all probably be confused.

For what its worth, I have a friend who is as in synch with LOST as I am, yet he was totally annoyed by "The Incident," which truly surprised me. He went from liking the show to thinking that it will have some lame answer in S6 like it being a dream. I made him laugh by saying that I would only accept that if it turned out to be a polar bear's dream.

If you are back reading the blog, I'm sure Big (and everyone else) will agree, ask questions.

Bigmouth said...

Dakota: I'm working on a review of the V pilot that I'll hopefully post in the next day or two. Very briefly, I didn't love it but saw some redeeming qualities that will keep me watching...for now.

Thunderstorm said...

Ellie's knowledge of Red Shoes' future is quite a mystery.

Almost have to imply that she is 'special' in some way.

For the record, there is a S5 deleted scene (from Daniel-Jack's pre-Incident 'huddle' by the stream) where Daniel remarks that he recreated his Dharma research in Anne Arbor (from 1974-1977). So the journal was presumably full of all kinds of wonderful things.

Still doesn't explain how Eloise knew Red Shoes' fate.

Can't wait to hear your theory about the loophole, Big.

Thunderstorm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Synchromystic Librarian said...

i still think Ellie timespace travels so she ended up at the antique shop and knew the red shoe guy died from her travels in the future, she may have learned how to do this via Daniel's notebook, i think the great man she mentions in the Lamp Post is Daniel

also, i think y'all may be giving MiB a tad more power than he really has

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I can see why that was a deleted scene, Thunderstorm, as we kind of figured it out by ourselves. Still, I'd have rather gotten one more scene of Jeremy Davies' acting than another shot of Radzinsky foaming at the mouth or Kate pulling her hair into a ponytail.

SL, we have to assume that MIB is at least as powerful as Jacob, otherwise why imprison him in the cabin? Mind manipulation is a wonderful thing. But we may be conned with MIB as we were with Jacob.

Remember back in S1 when we got two-minute scenes of Sun showing Walt how to brush his teeth with aloe or Jack shaving in the broken mirror? What happened to those little bits of info? Not that two minutes would explain the man with the red shoes, just saying I miss the answers to obvious questions we might have.

Could Eloise have just had knowledge of Red Shoes from Faraday's notebook? Could she simply have been telling Desmond about tangent universes, because I'll bet Faraday had the concept in his journal. WHH. So whereas Eloise knew that RS would die, she was just talking smack when she said if she stopped him he would die in another way or another way. She could see the future enough to know he was going to die, but was only guessing on the "he is supposed to die" bit.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And I'm not entirely certain that Faraday is "the great man" involved with the Lamp Post. I've thought about it, and the only way he could have been involved would have been during his days in Ann Arbor. There was that Army photo from 1954 on the wall, I think someone was at least working on the LP concept before Faraday's trip in 1974.

Greg Tramel said...

i think Jacob is a bit more powerful than MiB

i'm still on the fence about MiB's mind manipulation off island but i agree on island for sure

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Yep, I think the Man in Black fed her prophetic dreams of the future like he did flashes of Charlie's death to Desmond. Indeed, Charles and Ben have both mentioned dreams, and it's interesting how many dreams and visions on the show have come true.

Greg: I, too, used to think Eloise was time traveling. But I think her prescience has more to do with Daniel's journal and the Man in Black's dream visions.

dj: I agree that Eloise's comment about not knowing what comes next probably refers to the journal. But I have a hard time believing the journal would contain the precise date, time, and location of Desmond's abortive marriage proposal or Mr. Red Shoes's death. I think MIB planted that info via a dream or vision.

gg13: Most of this stuff is too speculative or bleeding edge theoretically to be taught in schools. But if you want to learn more about the science/pseudo-science of the show, I highly recommend anything by Dr. Michio Kaku, particularly his books "Hyperspace" and the "Physics of the Impossible."

Thunder: Agreed re Eloise being special. Like I mentioned to Wayne, I wouldn't be surprised if she had prophetic dreams like Ben and Charles.

SM: I suppose that would explain how she did it. The question is how she knew. How did she know to be at that pawn show, at that time, on that day? Interesting point re MIB being weaker than we think. Do you believe Jacob is stronger or the same as MIB?

neoloki said...


I have been thinking, "the clever man" Eloise mentions. who figured out that the Island is always moving was Horace Goodspeed. He is a mathematician, the leader of the Others, apparently built the MIB/Jacob cabin and brought Ben to the Island. I would like to think that they will tie the loose ends up around this character in season 6.

neoloki said...

sorry that should have said "the on-island leader of the DI".

Greg Tramel said...

maybe it is The Island that has the ultimate power like we originally thought before MiB was even on our radar, MUCH stronger than Jacob or MiB or The Numbers

'Lost': 'N.' is for Numbers

neoloki said...

I will post this on the "Mommy.." thread incase someone misses it:

A richard alpert bobblehead that has the latin inscription on the base:

He who will protect us all

That can't be random. No way damon would let these be released without his ok.

So we have "who will be the guide" on the official season 6 Lost poster and we have "He who will protect us all" from season 5.

Are they the same person?

Is Richard the "protector and/or keeper"?
And Jacob "the guide"?
What about Iliana?
or for that matter Faraday in an ALT and will John figure into this question?

Thunderstorm said...

Wayne, the thing needed from that deleted scene, for the casual viewer was the analogy to rocks and boulders in the stream.

Essentially the "ripple effect". I don't think those of us who frequent Lost forums would have needed it.

I don't think Daniel is the "great man" either. The only time the phrase is used was a quote from Tom (in the 'drawing the line' scene), attributed to Alvar Hanso.

I think your idea makes the most sense re: Red Shoes/Ellie. Sending her these visions. I was just re-reading the Wonderful LOST thread and I think I missed it the first time around...but the whole "don't you dare bring him back" Aaron needs to be booted from the Island...also ties in with Desmond's Charlie flashes. All makes too much sense.

Also, the Sisyphus Goodspeed vision. So MIB wanted the Island moved (not to mention) Zombie Christian (or casual, whatever you're calling him these days) telling Locke to find Eloise.

Is this going to be covered in the loophole or should be discuss it further here?

KoreAmBear said...

@neoloki there is a Ricardus bobblehead? Where is it? I'm in. Well Richard was the one that answered Ilana's question by responding in Latin.

I was also thinking about Eloise and Widmore, and in particular Widmore's family. Who is Penny's mom, btw? And is Penny and Desmond's son Charlie Pace?

In the Life and Times of Jeremy Bentham, it would seem that Widmore wanted Locke to go back to the island, but alive with the Oceanic Six, with Abaddon trying to help Locke "get to where he needs to be." So that doesn't seem to correspond with the MIB's needing Locke to come back as a corpse. Is Ben being manipulated by MIB but Widmore is not? So Widmore is Jacob's puppet - yet he is willing to go mercernary gansta on the island under Jacob's otherwise benevolent auspices? But that might be the diversion that was the point of Bad Twin. That would suck if I read that and the only point was that the guy perceived as the good twin is actually the bad one, and visa versa. Darn you Damon. :)

Thunderstorm said...

Neoloki, is it a bobblehead sanctioned by ABC?

Wayne, I have thought about it, I don't know how Eloise could have known the Red Shoes info from the journal. Daniel would have had to have known about it as well.

And maybe he did. Maybe it was a friend of his. And Eloise chose this moment in time to take advantage of it. After all, she could have intervened with Desmond at any given moment, right?

Probably gone across your mind or maybe even mentioned before but "motivated by guilt"...wouldn't it fit with the name they bestowed upon her?

Eloise, Ellie, E L E
Her guilt is in causing (or helping to cause) this potential extinction level event. It's her entire life's work to make sure it's staved off.

Synchromystic Librarian said...

how about this for a whakadoo?

Ellie WITH Dan in utero did some time traveling via the Chamber in the Orchid

neoloki said...

Let's assume that Ellie can not time travel, because we have no real reason to believe so. That leaves only two sources she could have gotten the information from: Jacob or MIB. I am not one who subscribes to the Other's being controlled by MIB. I also believe Jacob, Richard and Eloise are essentially "good" and trying to prevent some kind of Multiverse collapse. Given this it seems to be in Jacob's best interest to have Desmond at the Swan site pushing the button. Eloise on Jacob's orders plays course corrector in Desmond's life because of his unique ability "free will". Desmond is not controlled by WHH and thus needs certain people to overlook his process through life, e.g., Brother Cambell, Eloise, etc, al. Thus Jacob gives Eloise all the necessary information she would not have through her son's journal to make Desmond believe what she says is the truth. What better method then by example, thus the man with red shoes' death.

I don't know maybe?

Capcom posted the link to the Bobbleheads on the "It's a Wonderful Lost" thread. I will repost it here.


I've got to think these were sanctioned by Lost and ABC. And, yes, that quote was how Richard answered Iliana's question. Still, it is very interesting they chose to put that saying on the pedestal for Richard's bobblehead. Also, the latin phrase and the hieroglyphs in the poster speak directly to Lost's endgame and together seem like something very serious to consider.

Greg Tramel said...

noeloki, sounds logical to me but then it seems like He would be Jacob instead of Horace or Daniel but who knows, wonder why Ellie NEVER mentions Jacob as Big has pointed out

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hadn't thought of Horace. Thing is, the DI was already on the Island when Ben's mom dies. He's on the Island before Ben and Roger show up. Going back to the Army photo in the LP, maybe the initial coordinates were known but Horace devised the pendulum method. I agree his story seems truncated, what with Radzinsky all but booting him as DI leader towards the end.

Maybe the bobblehead has a purpose. It can shake its head yes AND no. And what better character to use than Richard? Regardless of who thinks what about Jacob and MIB, Richard is the one we'd likely get answers from. If there is a Richard Alpert version of 8 Ball, count me in.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg and Big, the whole Ellie not mentioning Jacob does make me wonder. But then take into account Richard's surprise when Ben first mentioned Jacob's name to Locke. Widmore kept the secret and Eloise returned the favor by hiding info about the Lamp Post from him. How long has Eloise known about the Lamp Post?

I'd be curious as to how you all everybody think about exactly WHY Widmore can't simply go back to the Island. Is MIB muddling his synapses, making himself think that if he steps foot on the beach something terrible would happen?

But if MIB started the loophole's end by getting Eloise to round up the O6, could it be that Jacob is the one messing with Widmore? Why does he have the deterministic belief that once you are banished, you can't go back?

neoloki said...

I have a feeling, Wayne, we might be getting many answers from Iliana, also.

neoloki said...

One other thing:

It seems to me that the only sure way to get back to the Island is through the LP, and given the history between Widmore and Eloise she obviously does not want to impart any of that information to him. Or maybe she was just waiting for the time where her son had to go to the Island, for events to unravel as they did, before she gave him the coordinates.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, that IS a damn good point about the Lamp Post. Entry point. I don't know that we need a discussion, as this is the most logical thing. Does this mean Desmond will have to return to the LP?

And, yes, an Iliana-centric episode will reveal as much about Jacob as it will MIB. I really want to know why she called him Ricardus.

neoloki said...

With some brief research it seams Ricardus is a name commonly used by Catholic Priests. I found 2 Ricardus' who were native to England.

It is highly possible that Ricardus, the name being Latin which is the language used by the Others, could have possibly been the priest aboard The Black Rock. I don't know but it seems like a reasonable guess.

Karmavore said...

On this Ellie thing, of course she can time travel, right? Anyone on the Island can, just by leaving/coming to the island on the right bearing. How else does Richard keep showing up whenever he wants? It also explains why in his second trip to visit Juliet he doesn't remember his first trip... he hasn't made it yet.

One thing I haven't seen discussed yet is Ellie's role in Season 3 as the "sheriff". I think she knows what is *supposed* to happen, and Pickett's death definitely wasn't part of the plan, hence the strong rebuke. (Further: Jacob's list is a list of people are are known to be around in the future to help out in the war, and people get collected when their names appear. Jack & Co. not being on that list is an indication that they're not *supposed* to be with the Others on the Island. We now know that Ben had them there for selfish reasons. Tumor caused by MIB then, huh?)

Anyway, I'm not too concerned with the details of how Ellie knew to be where and when to guide Desmond. What really mattered was setting up the consistent timeline/WHH/course correction premise we needed to understand the Charlie-saving arch. Well done, too, IMHO.

neoloki said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
neoloki said...


I think you are confused by a few things. Ellie, was not the sheriff. That was a different character that died at the beach camp during the raid in "Through the Looking Glass".

Also, being thrown off the Island is not the kind of time travel where you get a circumspect look at events. Both times we have seen it, as to turning the donkey wheel, you are thrown into the future which isn't very helpful to predicting the course of events.
Richard has not been time traveling or showing up whenever he wants. His progress through John's life was very linear from the point that John told him 2 years prior to his birth when and where to look. As far as his trips to Juliet, I have no idea what your talking about because there is no time travel concerned or a lack of memory of any events.
I would suggest watching a few episodes again.

David said...

This may be slightly off topic but I had the inklings of a theory recently and wanted to bounce it off you (guys).

LOST is all about the ultimate game changing/perspective altering moments, and the writers have long maintained that we are not seeing the big picture, and will not understand the greater vision until the final pieces of the mosaic are in place.

I had an idea that perhaps the "War" that is coming - and the final, gamechanging piece of puzzle, occurs in the new Alt-timeline. What if in season 6 all the characters land, no worse for wear, but still the same, un-redeemed selves.

John Locke, the ultimate island bad ass, is the ultimate ALT-reality loser. Without the redemption offered to him by the island, perhaps he gets real down. Pre-815, he was pathetic but thought a trip to Australia was his "Destiny," and it would lead him to glory. Now, having found nothing but rejection, he's willing to do something pretty terrible. Like Oklahoma City or 9/11 terrible.

I was thinking that perhaps the whole Alt-timeline will be a drawn out showing of Locke, reaching his boiling point, then plotting and (almost) enacting a large scale terror event. Then all the actions in the ALT-timeline will somehow inversely parallel the redemptive things we've been shown on-island. The characters will obviously continue to go in and out of each other's lives in new ways.

Not sure how the current MIB/on island stuff plays into this but I could imagine the ALT timeline playing out with a vital endgame and setting the whole on-island stuff in a whole new light.

Would love your thoughts.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I can see where more than a few people could have a false recollection that Ellie was the sheriff, seeing as how the Diana Scarwid character appeared in one episode and the fact of her dying in the beach camp attack was told after the fact in one of those maddening answers the producers sometimes give. What happened to the sheriff? Assume she died in the beach camp explosions. So for anyone not knowing of the producers without being aware of their comments, I can see where there'd be confusion re: certain one-off characters. And certainly Eloise 1977 could fire a gun and 2004 Scarwid is an older actor.

A lesser example: Harper Stanhope, the psychiatrist. Was she recruited by Mittelos or raised as an Other? Either answer works because we will never see her again. Would Mittelos want a qualified person handling certain aspects of Island life, or was she more of a layman, even though she had certificates on the office wall? Doesn't matter, we won't see her again to care. (I suppose it can be considered that her true purpose was to counsel Cindy and the other tail-enders).

But no one seems to care about Stanhope. Someone did in regards to the sheriff, and the answer was, oh, she's dead. So on that point, Karnavore, I can see the confusion.

Lostpedia is really a great help re: timelines such as Richard Alpert's.

Anonymous said...

What if when 815 was in the air and Desmond failed to push the button, what if this is where
the timeline split? In one reality, the losties still landed. And in the other, they crashed on the island.

The world eventually ends in the timeline where the losties land. Eloise is preserving the timeline in which events save the world.

Anonymous said...

Or a similar but different idea is that Desmond split the reality when in one timeline he married Penny. While in the other, he went to the island. This would significantly change events as well.

Capcom said...

Wayne said: "And I'm not entirely certain that Faraday is "the great man" involved with the Lamp Post." I'm not sure either, but it would be a really nice way to show Elloise's reverence for the importance of her departed son and his sacrifice, by calling him a great man.

Brian Green's shows/DVDs might be a good place to begin some fun research on these subjects as well.

Wow David, what you said about Locke is what I have felt about him (... the ultimate ALT-reality loser. Without the redemption offered to him by the island...having found nothing but rejection, he's willing to do something pretty terrible.) but wasn't able to nail it like you did.

Anonymous said...

Something hasn't 'split' realities; something has merged them: 'Eloise is 'of the Island' and, as Richard said, from the Others' perspective the Island remains stable as the Losties jump around it time. From the Losties' perpective, the Island moves in space (it disappears), but time stands still. Eloise knows the future because, to the Others, all time happens simultaneously.
What if...when Eloise orders Des to do 'what he's supposed to' or else 'we all die'. the 'we' she is referring to are the Others?
And, what if, Jacob and MIB are warring over which 'reality' will prevail - one reality where the Island and the Others survive, but the Losties' world ends; or the opposite?
And what if Daniel's theory of human 'variables' is correct, and he is willing to sacrifice himself as an 'Other' in order to save Charlotte and her kind?
I just pray for a Des and Penny happy-ever-after. If the above scenario is true, perhaps Penny, like Alex, is an adoptee (saving her, but creating another mystery of who Widmore's REAL 'outsider' child may be...OH NO!..might it be DES?!, thereby explaining his seeming ability to change 'time'???)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The one thing I remember about the time skips is Faraday saying that whatever they had comes with them, in his case, the Zodiac raft. Then the outrigger, even Locke's bullet shot from Ethan's gun. (This to the idea of why the Others stood still.)

Some people have suggested that the Others were at the Temple, but we know at least some of them were with Richard when they greet Locke before the purple sky. If Locke had been shaking Richard's hand at
that moment would Richard have come along for the ride? (There'd be no story for S5, but I'm just making an argument.)

I don't know what to make of the alternate reality or a combined one at this point, other than trying to see the timeline as a knot. Time is the string, or shoe lace, or rope. "The Incident" was the choke point, when the knot was tightest. The different years were the loops, and if its a shoe lace, one loop is the 316ers, the other, the rest. Each loop a different reality, until they converge at the knot? Got me.

Jacob's "dead." "They're coming." Maybe whoever was/is responsible for loosening that knot will be opening up whatever that knot was holding back, both realities might have merged when the knot was closed. I visualize this better than I'm describing it. Think more of Locke's hanging than Jacob's stabbing.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And with all the talk of Casual Christian/Formal Christian, I still want answers to Sporty Richard/Wild West Richard/Pirate-y Shirt Richard. I want to at least see his closet.

neoloki said...

If they plan on merging the different realities, which I conceive as being the best plan, someone will have to get their consciousness back to a primary universe. Or crash one of the realities. I am interested on who this will be and judging by the hieroglyphs on the season 6 poster that person is the guide.

I am going to guess they will be concentrating on the second batch of Others at the temple and this will directly relate to Richard's wardrobe. Shit, they have been talking about the Temple for almost 3 seasons and it is time we have it unveiled.

Thunderstorm said...

Wayne, in the Jacob/MIB 'Big' theory that I've got swirling around in my head, it sure makes a lot of sense (in theory) if Shaggy Richard is a Smoke Manifestation by Mr. MIB.

And that Jacob is allowing Clean Cut Ageless Richard and everyone else in the Others to effectuate MIB's plan (allowing the loophole) so he can eventually fall on the sword.

I haven't ironed it all out yet.

neoloki said...

I wouldn't be too quick to actually distinguish the "Richard's". Basically, they are all the same person and his original costume has more to do with his origins than any psychic difference.

I have a lot of trouble with theories that want to incorporate Smoky into a corporeal being. Smoky is an entity unto itself and any other "merging" seems to be clever for the sake of being clever.

Capcom said...

Wayne, you kill me with all of your "Richards"! X-D

I always figured that TPTB made Daniel say that about how whatever touches them goes with them, because then they wouldn't have to explain why they aren't time jumping nekkid...ergo, their clothes are touching them so they go too, haha.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, one thing led to another, Faraday's line was an explanation of how they stayed in the outrigger and the bit with Sawyer and the rope. I know, I know. You wanted a naked Bernard up in the tree in S2 and can't let go of the image, oh, well.

neoloki and tThunderstorm, I suppose that the main assumption is that MIB can only manifest as a dead person, but what evidence do we have that Richard is alive in the way we understand it?

The only reason I bring this up, and we only did see Pirate Richard once (I swear he looked like John Stamos with the hair and all, and the theme from FULL HOUSE overrode the rest of the episode), and that one time involved him talking to Ben. And we now know he (MIB) needed Ben to one day become Little Mr. Pissed Off and stab Jacob. Just sayin, there has to be a connection as to why Richard was dressed that way the one time he approached Ben and his speech about 'patience.'

I have tried to understand the various scenes where he changed outfits and nothing hits me. Its obvious that the 2007 Others are all in modern day dress, just as Richard is. Past that, I got nothin'.

Did my tying and untying a shoelace analogy make any sense re: loopholes and tangents? Should I pursue a degree at Oxford? A community college, perhaps?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oh, and neoloki, I have always seen MIB and Smokey as two different entities. Scenes like Locke disappearing while Alex is judging Ben can easily be a dodge, another con.

When everyone trekked to the Black Rock, I wonder how close they were to the east wall of the Temple.

Capcom said...

LOL! Nooooo! Anyway, I just meant that if maybe TPTB didn't say something like that via a character, that we'd all be complaining about the logic of how the LBers time skipped and how is it that their clothes conveniently skip too?! I know that I would be. Well, they'd better skip with them, it's network TV.


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I just brought that up jokingly, Capcom. But it was good writing, as Faraday's mention set us up for the still-unsolved outrigger scene in the very next episode. I think we'd ALL have been shaking our heads over why they didn't just get dunked.

Thunderstorm said...

Whatever the case, his appearance in TMBTC, was clearly an anomaly.

He looks the pretty much the exact same (to me) in 1954, 1956, when Locke was born, 1960ish? when he gave Locke the test, 1974, 1977, 2001, 2004 and 2007.

And the shaggy jungle dude from circa 1973 who met little Ben, surely is the one who sticks out like a sore thumb.

So, JMO, this one is the only other "Richard" I personally consider.

I definitely think they are two separate entities, MIB and Smokey but they are also most definitely linked. MIB probably knows precisely how to use it. The Alex scene is hard to ignore. My previous post was suggesting that Shaggy Pirate Richard was just like Alex. It wasn't the MIB, it was a message MIB sent.

Wayne, the manifesting only "dead" thing is interesting. I can't think of any possible examples of live beings, having been manifested. Lots of people have attributed lots of things to Smokey, Alex is quite a certainty. Christian is probably an easy bet. Both dead. The medusa spiders were 'dropped' out there as 'smokey' by Darlton. Maybe some other things.

It's not beyond the scope to consider that Richard might very well be dead. There is a thing walking around that looks just like John Locke, and we know he's dead. We've seen Christian Shephard walking around, physically holding a baby and he's dead.

Has anyone offered a solid explanation of what that thing that looks like Locke is, without using a wacky time travel device or the smoke monster?

neoloki said...

Yeah Wayne I remember you saying that before about MIB and Smokey.

As to the idea of whether Richard is alive in any way we normally understand it could directly relate to the nature of the Island. If you accept the theory that the Island is an inter-dimensional nexus than the concept of being "alive" becomes rather subjective.

and no I don't think I caught your full meaning when you spoke of shoe strings and tangents, but it would be a great title for a sic-fi story.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

It wasn't my best writing, neoloki, but I was thinking that instead of a loophole that represents a noose, Jeremy Benthem in mind, I thought of an actual choke point (no pun intended). If you think of tying a shoe, there are two loops and one huge knot holding them together. One loop is 316 and 1977, the other loop is everything MIB has done to get his little loophole. MIB expected a loophole of his own, like a simple noose you can tighten. 1954-2008 slowly tightens into December 2007 and he has his two Lockes. The other loop in the shoe lace could be considered the tangent universe, which then intersects with the MIB loop. The two loops represent Whatever Happened Happened and the choke point represents All Hell Breaks Loose in S6.

neoloki said...

nice analogy. however, where is Jacob's loop? 316? he must have a counter attack set in motion. "They're coming"?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thunderstorm, the other thing about John Stamos-Richard (sorry, I can't let that one go. Three nieces, FULL HOUSE pretty much every day for the last 17 years)[speaking of, fifteen minute niece-break just now]...Shaggy Richard meeting Ben. That is of some importance. The only other thing I can think is that Ben really wasn't supposed to be there, and he saw his dead mother. Maybe Richard had to rush out of the Temple quick, via the tunnels. No time to change/shave/etc.

But how would he, or anyone else, know that Ben was seeing his mom unless they were right there? Coincidence? I doubt it.

Also, if Shaggy Richard met Ben in 1973, surely Ben would have recognized clean-cut Richard in 1977. One can argue against that but, c'mon, how many non-DI people did this kid meet, right? And Shaggy Richard's line about patience makes me think of how long it took for MIB to make his loophole.

And I did forget that I'm a believer that MIB got inside Vincent in the first episode, leaving Christian, who tells Vincent what to do, the dog then runs PAST Jack and to the beach, and my thought has always been, straight to Locke, to not just "heal" him, but to actually bring him back to life, as Jacob did.

So I'll amend the MIB and dead things (though, seriously, Vincent survives the crash and ends up by the broken casket? The cage would have mangled him, I would think.) Maybe MIB does the other thing discussed in the last post, he can enter minds. So if Richard was on the Black Rock, I can see that MIB would know him and what his purpose will be. If he is locked up in the cabin in 1977, then he made Ben think he saw Shaggy Richard. The same way he can get into people's dreams, maybe Richard looked that way because this is how MIB remembered him from years ago.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, there's no counter loop for J. in my goofy equation, ha ha. Its more like Jacob is at the choke point of the two loops/realities. He knows past, present, and future. Again, just my oddball attempt at being Faraday. God knows I'm called Twitchy enough.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Duh. It could be that Jacob is involved with 316, but it goes with my thinking that Eloise and Widmore are analogues for Jacob and MIB, respectively. So the "Jacob" loop was effectuated by Eloise.

Thunderstorm said...

Watched TMBTC tonight.

Whispers preceded both Emily Ghost Linus and Shaggy Richard. Is there any other instance of whispers associated with Alpert?

Also, Wayne, not only does Shaggy Richard say "you'll have to be very, very patient" Emily says "it's not time, Ben, not yet" something to that effect. Curious.

My current idea is that Jacob lied to Richard, about both Ben and Locke. because he wants the Loophole to succeed.

RA: "Uh, Jacob, did you send a man named John Locke back in time to hand me a compass?"

after this 'triggers' something in Jacob's mind, he tells Richard to give him the Lama tests and all of that. It was the indicator of the Loophole plan, for Jacob.

And of course the Ben thing would have been a similar lie. Clean Cut Richard accepted Wounded Ben with open arms, simply because Jacob would have told him to. Not because this same Richard thought he was special. We have no evidence at all apart from those visions in TMBTC that Ben is the least bit special. Do we?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thunderstorm, I love the fact that, even after the long con that led to "The Incident," that we can still find evidence to the con in multiple layers, not just with the 06ers and 316ers. Ben has been played as we have been, but I could care less for him, when he's not whining, he's manipulating. That said, its like TMBTC can actually be rewritten in a way, to suit what we now know about characters and motivations.

Good catch on Emily's line, certainly that ghost could have been MIB. Anddd, if Richard had been close enough to somehow hear the ghost, his words to Ben would have reinforced what was said. What do you make of Richard's eagerness over knowing Ben could see his dead mom? If this is Jacob's interest, it mirrors the interest in Walt until he proved what I assumed to be too powerful.

There are a few things that I'm sure will be answered in ways we hadn't expected. Time-wise, this was the earliest we have heard the Whispers. My crazy theory, they originate in the Temple. We see how the dead are taken by the Others, even those two survivors killed by the Claymores in 1954. I have lots of crazy theories, though. Curse you, Vincent, for not being able to talk! Ill bet you've even peed on the Temple, you dog you.

Not the Temple directly, but rather the tunnel entrances/exits, marked as the Cerberus Vents on the BDM.

3D said...

Blogger Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And to clarify Eloise being dramatic, I should add that in her first appearance, at least to me, it was as if she was acting as a sentinel to the entire future, knowing when red shoes was going to die, etc. Then we see that her only true concern, back then, was Desmond.

I think that's an example of one of the overarching plotlines of Lost that went by the wayside in favor of a rewrite after Season 3. I think she was supposed to be some kind of a 'sentinel' as you put it, but they opted for something else, expanding her character and tying her in as a relative to one of the characters introduced in Season 4.

I do think the ending and the signposts along the way are pre-planned and set in stone, but I think they have made some major swerves in the 'how do we get there' department.

neoloki said...


Actually, 3D, I think you might be jumping the gun a bit on that one. Her story and true purpose are so vital and tied in with the endgame of Lost that they have forgone revealing to much of what her true purpose is. I can almost guarantee her purpose will be neatly tied up in season 6 and yes, a sentinel, will be one of the roles she takes. Well, maybe not neatly...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Back in the day, I can remember Big writing a post about Ms. Hawking, Abaddon, and Brother Campbell (I think), and calling them Chronal Protection Agents, and I was like, oh, come on now. How short-sighted I was.

One day I hope we will see how the pace changed due to the writers' strike (in a DVD set). Five episodes out of a remaining thirty-two or so is a fair amount of storytelling.

And I do think, at least with Hawking, her character is exactly as planned, down to Faraday naming his test rat Eloise. The producers might easily have given us two extra episodes in S5 and S6, so maybe all we're missing is more information about Widmore and Ben and their various helpers like Jill at the butcher shop. I can see where adding to S5 (at least) would have thrown the pace off by giving us info from those never written episodes from S4. So I don't rightly think Eloise's path has changed, but I'd bet Mr. Abaddon got the short end.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah Wayne, Abaddon's death was a big shocker for me, i kinda thought he was like Richard and never aged and in turn thought he could not be killed

i wonder if Richard can be killed?

Thunderstorm said...

Wayne, responding to this:

"if Richard had been close enough to somehow hear the ghost, his words to Ben would have reinforced what was said. What do you make of Richard's eagerness over knowing Ben could see his dead mom?"

If this idea has any merit, I think it's a complete ruse, as I don't think that is Richard at all.

It's this manifestation making little Ben feel special, to be want to be included in something, to feel important.

Later Jacob is 'on' to this ploy by MIB (using Ben) and lies to 'our' Richard (or clean cut, whatever) to treat him as one of their own. One of Jacob's people.

So Ben is MIB's double agent. He serves (on behalf of Widmore, Richard etc. and ostensibly Jacob) as their mole in Dharma, and yet he also serves as MIB's sleeper agent (probably unknown to him, hard to say) inside of the Jacobian Others.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thunderstorm, that is kinda what I meant. Whichever version (if there IS more than one) of Richard that was lurking about was acting on what Ben had seen/heard, steering Ben towards his good graces. The first time we saw that scene, it was the unkempt look that got me. And for all the other times we've seen him since, that was his stand-alone look. Thinking more on it made me realize that the tunnels are beneath the Barracks and Richard (the real one) had no time to do whatever it is he needed to improve his appearance or Richard (MIB) looked the way he did because this was the only way MIB could remember him, if Richard did arrive on the Black Rock.

The real problem is knowing how long MIB has been kept prisoner by Jacob. I don't like the assumption that the cabin in TMBTC is Horace's cabin from the 70s. There are many Easter eggs on the Swan mural, and there are three cabins with different colored roofs.

What are your thoughts (all of you) re: how long MIB was locked up in the cabin? Big, do you think the length of time for MIB's imprisonment affects the loophole? That is, does the loophole work different if MIB is captive after the Black Rock makes shore or at some point after that?

Thunderstorm said...

That's an excellent question. I can't figure the cabin thing out, so my answer isn't going to be very good at this point. I need help understanding the cabin.

Why does Ben go there in TMBTC? If he's putting on a show for JL, why that Cabin?

In Ben's context "Jacob" and MIB are the same entity.

"Thirty-five years I lived on this island, and all I ever heard was your name over and over. Richard would bring me your instructions--all those slips of paper, all those lists--and I never questioned anything. I did as I was told. But when I dared to ask to see you myself, I was told, "You have to wait. You have to be patient."

So "Jacob" (MIB) shows up and it shocks even Ben. "That was Jacob."
And he didn't hear him, and surely didn't see him.

So did he luck out and pick the right cabin or what?

Finally, Ilana goes right to it, so this implies Jacob HAD used it before, you'd have to think.

So Ben was going there for a reason, I'm sure. Somebody told him that's where Jacob was? Hoping Jacob would show up as he put on a "show" for JL?

Thunderstorm said...

I may have answered my own question.

Richard very well may have told Ben where Jacob was, in the Cabin. And this would have been the truth.

But when Jacob 'moves' to the Statue, I am sure (because Jacob wants MIB to succeed) that he didn't pass this information on to Ben.

He wanted Ben to go to the cabin and meet Mr MIB. Does this fly with anyone?

To answer your question, Wayne, I'll have to get back at ya tomorrow, to see if this idea^ makes any sense.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thunderstorm, it is true that Richard would have not passed on the statue info to Ben; look at how Richard reacts when MIB Locke wants everyone to go to Jacob ASAP. Another thing I just didn't catch in that episode was the fact that Richard would now look the fool if he had told Ben Jacob lived in the cabin in the past. Granted, three years had passed.

I had forgotten that Locke took Horace's blueprints off of his corpse, and that is the location they went to when Locke was told to move the Island. So was the cabin a dodge? While I watched "The Incident," it seemed as if Jacob was quite comfortable in the statue. Why the crap would he go out in the woods and live with a painting of a dog and jars of goo?
And Ben sure seemed dejected when he told Sun that the statue had always been there as long as he was on the Island, which also, in retrospect shows how much angrier he would be not knowing all about Jacob's real living quarters.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The point was made about Widmore or Ellie never mentioning Jacob. Maybe Ben was the one who kept making a point of asking where Jacob lived and went out on his own and found the cabin, it can't be far beyond the sonic fence.

Ben never questioned Jacob on the cabin, or why "he" talked to Locke, it was all about the lists. I think he stumbled upon the cabin as a kid or maybe watched Horace build it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: Ilana. This could have been Jacob's favor, to check on MIB, simple as that. Jacob had been aware of it, but maybe not used it for anything more than imprisoning MIB. The dog painting and the other stuff might have been Horace's stuff. So was MIB imprisoned after the Purge, when no one would be going to the cabin for any reason at all?

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, Ben probably just discovered the cabin by accident or as Wayne says he watched Horace build it, maybe taking Locke to the cabin was meant as a fake out wherein Ben had no idea where Jacob lived and knew nothing about MiB

he was surprised as much as Locke when a ghost appeared, maybe the Di kids played the the ghost cabin so Ben thought it was spooky enough to fake Locke into believing it was where Jacob lived

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, that's a cool thought about the cabin being a dare to the DI kids, that they knew of it like it was Boo Radley's house in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD. And Ben was the only one brave enough to go check it out because he only had Annie as a friend.

"Jacob" didn't like technology because Horace didn't have any electricity in the cabin. It was secret.

dj said...

I'm a bit worried that Jack died in the first episode...


After Jack, Kate, and Charlie finish scrounging around in the cockpit of the plane, the pilot is suddenly dragged out through the window and killed. A chase ensues. Charlie trips and Jack goes back for him. Charlie gets up and runs but Jack is nowhere to be seen. Kate worries about Jack and decides she and Charlie have to go back for him.

Kate and Charlie notice the dead pilot in the tree.

Charlie: What the...

Jack comes out of the jungle.

Jack: It's the pilot.
Kate: Did you see it?
Jack: No. It was right behind me but I dove into the bushes.


Maybe I'm looking a little too hard, or overanalyzing, or connecting dots that don't exist... but I'll be damned if that doesn't remind me of Possessed Locke coming out of the jungle at the Barracks like it ain't no thang.

And frankly the whole first episode just feels weird, now. I mean it was weird to begin with, but after 5 seasons of this show, you begin to realize that subtle little things mean EVERYTHING. Take Possessed Locke at that situation again... Ben saying "I can't control what's going to come out of that jungle" and oh, hah hah, it's just Locke. Humorous! But oh the irony...

I need to get more sleep. :)

Bigmouth said...

dj: Don't think he died because Smokey then leads Jack to the caves as Zombie Christian. But I've long wondered if Jack was scanned by Smokey during the period they were separated.

dj said...

Yeah, I just came back to say that was all crazy-talk. Jack is too... Jack throughout the rest of the show. Locke was noticeably weird once possessed.

You're right though, one must wonder what happened off-camera.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Maybe they had thoughts to put that into a mobisode, but then went to Christian talking to Vincent instead.

Since LOST does a fairly good job of explaining setups, I can see where Jack was being scanned, since we saw the same with Eko, Locke, and even Kate & Juliet.

Here's something to think about. Smokey was scanning Jack and then found out the exact way to push Jack's buttons as Christian. He had C.'s memories (maybe some of them), and a scan of Jack could have filled in the blanks. Jack could have "tripped" because of Smokey's tendrils, kind of like a huge branch.

Capcom said...

I have seen a screencap from S1 that I think is of Jack kneeling down pulling Locke out of the hole (I think). Jack is looking back, Smokey is there and it looks as if there are images in Smokey, like the ones we first saw when Eko got scanned. The images are very faint, so I'm not sure if it's not just the mind putting objects to Smokey-clouds. I'll try to find that image. Anyway, if it is actually the first time TPTB showed Smokey scanning, Jack's memories could have been in Smokey all along, as DJ says.

Otherwise, I agree, Jack is far too "Jacky" to not be real. But it does seem odd how he just appeared from the brush like that. :o)

Bigmouth said...

I think I know what you mean, Capcom. I remember thinking they looked like eyes in the smoke -- the eyes of the Island? I also wondered if they were magnetic or electrostatic field lines.

Bigmouth said...

David wrote:

John Locke, the ultimate island bad ass, is the ultimate ALT-reality loser. Without the redemption offered to him by the island, perhaps he gets real down. Pre-815, he was pathetic but thought a trip to Australia was his "Destiny," and it would lead him to glory. Now, having found nothing but rejection, he's willing to do something pretty terrible. Like Oklahoma City or 9/11 terrible.

I was thinking that perhaps the whole Alt-timeline will be a drawn out showing of Locke, reaching his boiling point, then plotting and (almost) enacting a large scale terror event. Then all the actions in the ALT-timeline will somehow inversely parallel the redemptive things we've been shown on-island. The characters will obviously continue to go in and out of each other's lives in new ways.

Wow...I completely missed David's provocative suggestion. I absolutely love this idea of Locke becoming a mass terrorist in the "reset" reality! My hope has always been that they would use these flashes sideways to make the point that Jacob's intervention helps save the world from some catastrophe predicted by the Valenzetti Equation. Locke as a terrorist -- and maybe Aaron as the anti-christ -- could conceivably be used to do just that.

One point of clarification. What David calls the "ALT-reality" I refer to as the "primary" reality. Again, I believe the true "ALT-reality" is Seasons 1-5.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I had read David's post and think it works. As much as I want to say I can associate with Locke, I'm not letting that cloud the fact that he could be that bad. He was saying the equivalent of "don't tell me what I can't do" long before "Walkabout."

But the McVeigh-9/11 scope of things seems extreme, unless you want the "event" to mirror "the incident." Because LOST is all about refracted images. Would ALL of S6 be in the real world, with the cuts (be they FFs or Flashbacks) take us back to the Island, i. e., the opposite of S1 and S2, whether it be reality or ALT reality? If this is what happens, I can easily see Locke as the "ultimate bad-ass" and the TRUE reason for the loophole was not for MIB to kill Jacob, but to kill him USING LOCKE'S DEAD BODY. No Locke, world fixed. Aaron must figure into this somehow, if there is more real world settings, that could mean Claire, her bf, etc.

Also, in a mirroring kind of way, Jack was unconscious when nobody else was once he was hit in the head by the toolbox in "The Incident." He was unconscious in the pilot until Vincent ran by, snapping out of it when Shannon screamed. Maybe by having Jack get conked at the end of S5, they are telling us S6 is a new game altogether.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

What WOULD be trippy, though I doubt we'll see this, is overlapping course corrections. The only visual I can easily describe, one that has no context now, would be Edward Mars on the plane the fugitive he is handcuffed to changes from Kate to Sawyer to Sayid. Hell, maybe even Mars changes to Ilana and then to Ceasar. All of this as the plane lands safely in LA.

They're coming. Are the 'they' the people who can fix the timeline that couldn't be fixed in S5?

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Actually, I really dig the idea of Locke's terrorism mirroring the Incident...or perhaps implosion of the Swan!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I mean 'they' as in a completely different group than we might expect, like the second set of Others (more reference to twins) at the Temple?

Greg Tramel said...

i can't help but wonder if the new character Dogen is a shout out to Dogon (and in turn the dog star) since there is also a picture of a dog looking up

Poster 13 reveal video

Greg Tramel said...

and i like the idea of Locke being a terrorist in what y'all call the primary timeline

that would definitely help to explain why is it imperative for the alt timeline to overtake the primary timeline

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, I should have said the hatch implosion, if only because it gives us the metaphor of being sucked back in as opposed to whited out. That is, course-corrected instead of a reboot.

But I had read David's post and since no one followed up on it, I thought it was something carried over from the other forums (kind of dumb on my part, actually). Apologies to David, plus I think any talk of FF and V might have overlapped my visits here.

But what do we make of Jacob's line about progress, then. OK, hear me out. How would LOST play out in the 1800s? The Black Rock, of course. If we go with the ALT-reality back then (because MIB is always looking for that loophole), the analogue for the Hatch implosion would be the dynamite that some think took down the statue, and that the statue's ash is what circled the cabin. Now, I can't imagine what an ALT-reality would entail for the crew of the BR, but it should seem that MIB tried to make that loophole happen in the 1800s and was instead caught in it like a noose (however it was Jacob got him in the cabin). He freed himself from the noose/cabin in 2004 and Jacob let him, needing Locke to eventually die and become MIB Locke, as mentioned before, because Real Time Locke (in the real reality) does something horrific. My problem always falls back to the ALT and the Real Time realities.

Misdirection has been evident even when the clues are there. We never ever get an answer to why the hell John Locke would take a box (recurring image) of knives with him on a trip he is making IN A WHEELCHAIR. Even now, I think, OK, two, maybe three knives, but that box was right off the Knife Buying QVC. The misdirection could be to show a different kind of killing method. Hell, the countdown timer is a detonation device, you get down to it.

Greg Tramel said...

i watched an interesting movie with a touch of Lost resonance


Greg Tramel said...

yeah Wayne all those knives have always been a bit peculiar to me, almost like he knew already he would end up on the island after being rejected for the walkabout

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I get that Locke was into role-playing, the phone talk with Helen#1, the strategy games in the lunch room at the box company. I wonder if the knives will be a tell in S6. Obviously he needed a knife for his character to work, as well as to have Richard bring something else of significance to him at the age of 6. But why so many? Also, I just thought of this, was the knife Richard showed John one of the Others or one of Locke's? Could be another reason why Richard cut out so quickly.

lostmio said...

Bigmouth, I'm still with you re the s1-s5 chain of events being the reset reality. Those events all happened as shown, with all consequences. IOW, no parallel universes but a true reset.

Any other timeline really happens/happened too, but was 'overwritten' by the S1-S5 timeline.

Re Shaggy Richard: no biggie, IMO. The character was still new and the writers didn't know then that he'd be there for the long haul. They wanted to make a point that he didn't age, tho. Putting him in that hippie garb probably seemed like a good idea at the time, but I suspect they regret it now.
As the character and actor settled in, the writers wisely decided that clean-cut timeless Richard works better.

lostmio said...

Locke's a self-describe 'hunter', and that role has mythological and archetypal significance to the show.

Hunters all love their toys. I didn't find it odd that Locke took all those knives on his walkabout. Plus he had delusions of grandeur.
And the writers wanted us to be intrigued by Locke; his case of knives was a handy gimmick.
For me, that's explanation enough for the knives.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I wouldn't say Locke had delusions of grandeur since he was in a wheelchair. It could be that Jacob's touch instilled some kind of inner strength that offset his being crippled, thus his need for the knives, etc. I'm just curious why he brought a whole box, considering he WAS in a wheelchair. I don't rightly think people have toys when they are crippled.

lostmio, for what its worth, everyone who left the Island were full of crap, except for Hurley, who had the right idea by going back to Santa Rosa. The show needed the drama, but for Jack, Kate, Sun and Sayid to just forget about everyone left behind for three years would be crazy. The freighter found the Island, as did Desmond's boat. So when it comes to Kate in 1977, if it were real life, all of them (but for Hurley) gave a damn about everyone left behind. I'm not trying to dump on Kate, but the writers are very good with making the characters real. I suppose my feelings lie in the fact that she started out as a fugitive and the whole mess with her calling Aaron "her" son. I should have added that Jack was pretty much a dick, still in his savior complex. They are both irredeemable, but in different ways.

If this is the alternate reality, I'd like to see the real one in S6 cover all the characters, not concentrate on a few.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, Greg. I forgot to ask about Dogon and the poster reveal link. It goes to DarkUFO and I don't know where to look, plus I'm not going to. What is the main deal re: Dogon? Is the name on the poster or something like that?

neoloki said...

Dogen is a new character, played by a rather famous Japanese actor, but you don't want to know anymore than that; although, there isn't much more info. Seems like he will be fairly significant.

Greg Tramel said...

actually there is a Zen philosopher/poet named Dogen (1 of the many new characters for Lost S6) so that is more likely the reference

Dogen and Koans

Capcom said...

Interesting about Dogen and the new character, looking forward to that!

I suppose the thing about the O-6ers being in denial is mostly the conflict between how they first decided to keep the island a secret to help the FBs stay safe(except for Hurley who didn't agree), and then when they began to realize that they needed to stop ignoring what happened and that going back would help/serve the FBs better. Once that conflict was resolved, it I sort of forgave them for ignoring the FBs, but I before that point I thought that it was a pretty lousy decision and I tended to side with Hurley.

LOL about Locke carrying a cache of knives in a wheelchair. I can relate, sometimes since c-treatment I use a cane when I'm trudging around the mall and the damm thing just keeps getting in the way of everything I'm carrying. I can't imagine how he'd carry all that junk while having to turn the wheels on his chair. I don't think that he had a electric chair, but I could be wrong.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

"One of many new characters in S6"? Gee, thx, Greg. They just better damn well be pirate zombie mummy philosophers. Wearing bowling shirts that say BLACK ROCK LANES.

Thx, neoloki. When Greg first put up the link, I was already unable to see any one thing I could look at, that's why I promptly forgot about it for a few days.

Capcom, sure it was needed for the show to work, but it wouldn't have taken me three years to do something. And, let's face it, if Jeremy Benthem hadn't told Jack he saw Christian, they'd still be in LA. Jack and Kate both talked to him like he was a piece of shit, Kate sounding like she was mouthing of to a mirror and Jack calling him a pathetic old man. (I still laugh at the vanity that late 50s is old.) The show is set up so well, Jack on one side, Locke on the other. Everything evens out until they leave the Island. Maybe that is where the title "Because You Left" really means.

I can see why Desmond would want nothing to do with the Island. Sayid and Hurley ended up back in their old lives, and Sun, well, she hasn't really had a story in two seasons. Never mind Kate and "her" son, Jack was ALWAYS the guy who needed to fix things, and I would think (again, in real life)that after a year or so, someone would at least be looking into it. Sure, everyone knew each other for only three months, but Jack, and probably only Jack, would have the compassion to try and go back. Sun thought Jin was dead, Sayid was back to killing and Hurley was seeing ghosts. LOST's characters were defined so well, and so early on. I still have trouble with the names of characters on FLASHFWD.

It's always easy to say "I would have..." in real life, too; and of course when we do see Jack with the maps and the beard, the impact is much, much greater.

In all of the scenes with Locke, he is being pushed. Boone in his dream, when he is sitting next to Rose at the airport, having just pushed past as Rose dropped her cancer pills. He might have misunderstood Abaddon about the true walkabout, and thought it was a tour bus thing. So it comes back to the knives, toys or not, why bring a box when you know you can't bend down to grab each and every one? Did Richard show Locke his own knife in 1962, as well as the compass?

lostmio makes good points on not knowing the direction, who would prove popular, and all. The box of knives could have been a WTF? scene like when the pilot was in the tree. Going back to what David had said, Locke thought he redeemed himself by moving the Island (after being responsible for the hatch implosion), but that went wrong, as well.

So in the real reality, is John the same kind of guy. I wouldn't call him bad-ass like David, but I get the intention. Would Locke do something bad, then try to fix it, only making things worse? Its like Locke needing to "fix things" in the real reality just as Jack does in the ALT-reality.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, you mentioned the fact that they stopped ignoring them. They always did. If Locke hadn't told Jack Christian said hello, coupled with Faraday's dream/memory for Desmond, things would still be the same. Hurley wanted to tell the truth, that's why Santa Rosa was a better place than the freedom the the outside world. So I wouldn't agree with slow realization. It was the Benthem/Jack moment, though I'm sure Eloise would have found a way to kick their butts into action.

And even though Desmond is still not truly involved with recent events, he is far more noble than Jack or any of the other 06ers.

Capcom said...

LOL Wayne. When Kate said to Locke, "...and look at you now, John" I yelled at the TV, "Well look at YOU Kate!"

Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Yep, Capcom. My opinions towards several characters changed more strongly once the Island disappeared. They all went back to their own old habits, but for Sun, who, aside from the anger she shows towards Widmore as she did Jin's mother, Sun has not really had anything going on in two years and I really am hoping that we see Sun & Jin have a bigger part in S6's endgame. Again, my true problem with Kate is really with her continued belief that Aaron was hers.

And the kettle black thing has been there since S1 with just about everyone. Information about the Island was compartmentalized between a choice few people, different people at times, things like that. Nikki and Paulo seemed to give a bigger picture to things just by being who they were. The message the show is giving us for the 06 is that you can't change, you fall back on old habits. And re: finding the Island again, its also all about trust and follow-ups. Why not ask Widmore if he knew Keamy was batshit? That right there would at least get someone thinking.

When all is said and done, I will believe as I do now, that Daniel Faraday played the biggest part in the final three seasons, not counting his sacrifice. His dream-memory to Desmond and his DI notebook. He went to Ann Arbor to be proactive while Sawyer, Juliet, and the rest took up lives in the Barracks. (Granted, what else COULD they do, but Faraday didn't stay with them.)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And Greg, I'm kidding with you, of course. As long as you don't give away the spoiler that Tarawet is alive and that the ash around the cabin is from a big blunt that the statue's been smoking. Hmmmn, the real source of the smoke that Rousseau saw? I think she'd be smoking the joint with the statue.

Greg Tramel said...

WAYNE! you just gave away the biggest spoiler of all, how did you know?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

But I was told that was going to be mentioned in the enhanced rerun of "The Incident." [The statue is Tarawet.] [the marijuana joint can not be seen because the statue is sneaky.] [In "Solitary," Rousseau tortured Sayid because she needed a fix.] [Jill the butcher sells meth at Mr. Cluck's.] See? Now no one knows what to believe. Oh, I forgot. [Shaggy Richard is Neil Diamond.]

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I almost bit myself in the @$$ around three this morning. After working on my blog, I clicked the One Blog Over feature. As Richard Alpert is my witness, the blog was for a LOST site, with spoilers for the seventh episode of S6.

I caught one sentence that went with certain characters returning, and I clicked away from it (and I knew about this anyways). But I guess its far enough in that it might be hard for me to speculate anything from my end if most everyone else has news from a third of the way through the last season.

Let me ask this. Does there seem to be any clear cut answers in the spoilers. I'm not going to look at any sites, I'm just curious as to if the spoiler sites are fleshed out enough to tell the direction S6 is heading.

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Let's continue this discussion on my new post devoted specifically to S6 spoiler speculations. I know there are many folks, myself included, who have been itching to do so, so here's our chance!

Bigmouth said...

Also, just to answer Wayne's question generally, I don't think the spoilers are too definitive beyond confirming that the Comic Con videos were not misdirection. Plenty of ambiguity and room for speculation on the spoiler post...

Greg Tramel said...

so Thunderstorm mentioned ancient astronauts maybe The Island is Niribu

anybody following this crazy disclosure that's supposed to happen on Friday? i'm not holding my breath

UFO disclosure by Barack Obama in 2009

Capcom said...

Seriously? *snicker* I can't imagine it being too revealing. Although he doesn't seem to like the military much, perhaps he's going to blow the lid on Area 51.

Greg Tramel said...

i don't really want to open up the whole ufo can of worms, like other commenters here i've pretty much moved on to other topics but sensing that disclosure is closer than it's ever been it resparked my interest a little bit

anyway,i don't think we wil learn anything about area 51 anytime soon

this short video begins to debunk the supposed Friday 11/27 disclosure

UFO/Alien disclosure on November 27, 2009?

BUT all that being said, i'm kinda likeing the idea of the island being Nibiru or at least a metaphor for a Nibiru like place

Greg Tramel said...

since the antichrist has been brought up here before i wonder if the great war is the gog/magog war or some facsimile or metaphor

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx for mentioning there is still talk over here, Greg. Like I mentioned, I don't know how much "hard" discussion there can be, I'm getting the impression that the spoiler entry is all about the ALT reality and the con videos.

No one there, I guess, is moving past that one topic, right? I've wondered about the Island and if it is a nexus of sorts, or if the ALT reality only occurs because of MIB and Jacob's needing a loophole. The war could then be between which reality then has the "right" to exist. It's difficult to really get into their game plan for S6 without seeing the pace they will set right off the bat. S5 had us going from the first second. I have high hopes for S6 in a similar fashion (and I think S4 opened with great momentum, as well), but I try not to deflate my own balloon.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Always love the UFO talk, as Space Command is at Scott AFB in rural downstate Illinois. Google or Wiki the UFO Sightings in 2000 for Illinois. You'll get a link for the Tinley Park lights which I hadn't been aware of. That suburb is not too far south but still doesn't explain the helicopters I keep seeing.

I thought the link would take me to the equivalent of the Weekly World News, that one alien grey who visits all the presidents.

Greg Tramel said...

'Lost': Hungry like the wolf

Greg Tramel said...

i think i missed something

where/whwen did we see this tapestry?????