Friday, December 11, 2009

The Red Tapestry and Terms of Truce...

As we've discussed on other posts, the Season 5 Blu-Ray DVD has some intriguing bonus materials, including a new Red Tapestry, and a draft Letter of Truce between the Others and DHARMA.  Given the interest in both subjects, I figured it made sense to create a separate post devoted to them.  Let's start with the Red Tapestry.

(Screen cap courtesy of the Televixen)

According to our own Netprophet, ῥέε δ᾽ αἵματι is part of a phrase from the Iliad, Book 4, which translates as "the earth/ground ran red with blood."  A contributor to Dark UFO's blog named Keeping Pace concurs and provides further translation and insight:
νῦν τοι ἐελδέσθω πόλεμος κακός (Iliad bk. 16, line 494)
ῥέε δ᾽ αἵματι γαῖα (Iliad bk. 4, line 451)
θανάτου δὲ μέλαν νέφος ἀμφεκάλυψεν (Iliad bk. 16, line 350)

This translates to:

"Now you must embrace this evil war"
"the ground ran with blood"
"then death's black cloud enveloped"

I should add that the first line is given by Sarpedon (a great Trojan hero) to his friend Glaucus (a Lycian) as Sarpedon lay dying on the field of battle. Upon seeing Sarpedon mortally wounded, Glaucus prayed to Apollo, asking the god to help him rescue the body of his dying friend. Apollo cured Glaucus' wound, allowing him to rally the Trojans around the body of Sarpedon until the gods carried the body away.
Additionally, we have what's apparently Richard Alpert's handwritten notes on a typewritten draft of the Letter of Truce between the Others and DHARMA.  Here are the terms, along with Richard's comments and addendums in italics, courtesy of Lostpedia:
LETTER OF TRUCE (Alpert notes 8/15/73)


The DHARMA Iniative and the indigenous island inhabitants,

Desiring to bring about cessation of hostilities on the island without prejudice to the rights, claims and position of the the indigenous island inhabitants or DHARMA Iniative recruits and employees, < Goodspeed, is the "legal" language necessary?

1. Call upon all authorities and leaders concerned to order a cessation of all actions of armed force in perpetuity going forward from this date; Fix periode - Finite

2. Call upon all authorities and leaders concerned to refrain from introducing fighting personnel into the DHARMA Iniative or the indigenous inhabitant's camps during the cease-fire;

3. Call upon all authorities and leaders concerned to refrain from mobilizing or submitting a military (We're not the ones with uniforms) army for trainig during the cease-fire;

4. Call upon all authorities and leaders concerned to refrain from importing or exporting war materials (Please define war materials) into the DHARMA Iniative or the indigenous inhabitant's camps during the cease-fire;

5. Urge all authorities and leaders concerned to take every possible precaution for the protection of the island, including all [shrines and sanctuaries] (I've included more specific on this in our counters) used for whatever purposes by those who have an established right to visit them;

6. Call upon all authorities and leaders concerned to respect the established boundaries of the DHARMA Iniative and the indigenous inhabitant's camps and a zone of five kilometers surrounding each camp, and to not infiltrate or attack these areas during the cease-fire;

[7. Urge all authorities and leaders concerned to respect the established right of the citizens of each camp to live freely within their community and to not fear attack during the cease-fire;] Redundant - we get it.

8. Instruct the DHARMA Iniative and the indigenous inhabitants to create security teams, in concert with a mediator, to supervise the observance of above provisions, and provide them with a sufficient number of security observers;

9. Instruct the mediators to make contact with all parties as soon as the cease-fire is in force with a view to carrying out his functions; I will be our mediator, you will be DHARMA's

10. Instruct the mediators to make [periodic] (Is this necessary?) reports to each party as mutually decided upon during the cease-fire; Our willingness to allow your presence should not be mistaken as continued opportunities for diplomacy.

11. Invite the mediators of the DHARMA Iniative and the indigenous inhabitants to communicate their acceptance of the resolution not later than sundown on 16 August 1973;

12. Decide that if the present resolution is rejected by either party or by both, or if, having been accepted, it is subsequently repudiated or violated, the situation on the island will be reconsidered wirh a view to military action and swift reprisal;

13. Call upon all authorities and leaders concerned to take all possible steps to assist in the implementation of this resolution.

Adopted this day. 16 August 1973. Agreed and accepted to.

Horace Goodspeed, for the DHARMA Iniative

Richard Alpert, for the indigenous island inhabitants

(See my counters / addendums on back RA)

(Screen cap courtesy of Dark UFO)
Counters / addendums (transcript)

- If the DHARMA Iniative enters or violates any [preexisting] ruins on the island, the truce is violated.

- If the DHARMA Iniative digs or drills any more than ten meters into the ground, even in their designated territory, the truce is violated.

- The DHARMA Iniative pledges its term of residency will last no longer than fifteen years. At the end of this term all facilities and personnel are to leave the island.

- The [D.I. can only] maximum population of D.I. members cannot exceed 216 at any one time on the island.

(Screen cap courtesy of

So what do you all everybody think?  As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


Thunderstorm said...

I can't figure out which one might be the Richard or Jacob analogue.
Sarpedon and Glaucus, that is.

Is the third man Patroclus an analogue to MIB?

Patroclus killed Sarpedon.
And in one uncited instance on wiki, Sarpedon (a son of Zeus) was made immortal by Zeus or Apollo? So is Richard the analogue to Sarpedon?

This would mean that Glaucus would be the Jacob analogue? But Glaucus is the one who had his wound healed. Am I looking too hard for a literal analogy?


I like your idea about the cabin.
Built above a cerebus vent?

The Truce also seems to imply that there could be an issue with the 4 year span between when they were supposed to have been booted off the Island and the Purge. On the 'Lage, Jon G and I were speculating that this was because of Widmore letting Dharma stay. Another reason Widmore was ousted? I don't know...

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Thanks for putting this up Bigmouth! I can stop bouncing back and forth between Cyrillic transliteration and ancient Greek translation sites now! (I was getting close on the first line, just couldn't figure out "embrace". Once I had the phrase I was planning to look for a match in the Iliad, so I was on the right track.)

Anyhow, the red tapestry excites me more than the truce letter. As Big suggests, maybe this is MiB's work, sort of a counterpoint to Jacob's tapestry. Visually, the six armed being with three spears tearing people to shreds could certainly be Smokie, and the black cloud of death reference is obvious (once translated of course).

BTW - Is it just me, or do Smokie, the slave driver figure, and the two other figures stabbing folks with spears (right above the "nyn") all appear to have antennas? The "alien theory" lives!

As for the truce memo, not much there. Most intriguing thing is RA's counter/addendum prohibiting DHARMA from drilling more than 10 meters, even in their own territory. I suppose Bigmouth might consider this a reservation of mineral rights (legal jargon joke), but it seems to me a blatant tip off that the indigenous people were concerned about the tunnels beneath DHARMAville being discovered. I'm wondering, though, how exactly Horace's house and basement could have been built adjacent to the tunnel without disturbing it.

Thunderstorm said...

Seems Sarpedon accepted his own mortality. From Book 12.

“Man, supposing you and I, escaping this battle, would be able to live on forever, ageless, immortal, so neither would I myself go on fighting in the foremost nor would I urge you into the fighting where men win glory.

But now, seeing that the spirits of death stand close about usin their thousands, no man can turn aside nor escape them, let us go on and win glory for ourselves, or yield it to others. "

I believe he is saying this to Achilles. Anyhow, I don't necessarily believe that Richard or Jacob is immortal but perhaps one of them is. Jacob seemed to die quite nicely.

Unless it's because of the knife. I guess Highlanders were immortal too, and you could kill them by cutting off their head. I dunno, I only saw the first movie.

What would you call a 'magic weapon' like that? I'm struggling for the phrase.

Thunderstorm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thunderstorm said...

What kind of glyphs are in the top and bottom lines? Are those Egyptian or is that what people are trying to figure out?

MikeNY said...

Unscholarly breakdown...

1st panel:
Primitive group stands in defense of more advanced group.

~ Primitive group (or Aliens :-)) make short work of the invaders.
~ Ra-Horakhty stands beside a fire with two others, one of which might be holding a knife.
~ Arthur withdraws Excalibur ;-)

Anubis-looking guy gets pissed and works some voodoo.

Anubis feeds invaders to Ammit (or a similar monster).

Some of the locals leave the island.

Look here for the Egyptian figures.

Capcom said...

Very good post and comments!

Capcom said...

P.S. the images on this piece are much more aggressive/violent than on the other one/Jacob's. I could get on board with this one belonging to MIB.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Does MIB seem a tapestry-weaving guy to everyone else? And add what seems to be more mythology this late in the game? (On the $Y%$#$E Blu-Ray no less, the marketing bastards, but then, I can watch the Orientation VHS, ha ha ha.)

What Thunderstorm said made me think of when Eko and Locke had been described analogues of Gilgamesh and Enkido. Through a crossword puzzle (think hieroglyphs), no less. This might be the wrong way to go, but we saw that Locke worked the puzzle to fit his needs. Can the tapestry be considered in the same manner?

Also, where does the MIB weave his tapestry? In the Temple? I guess it is meant to be obvious that this is MIB's work, maybe its just me seeing the producers alienating so many viewers. But where do you all everybody think MIB kept his work station? The Dark Territory?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Also, I had no idea about the tapestry when I mentioned the Truce. I guess I like it as a written contract of sorts, and the fact that the indigenous inhabitants are not named.

Thunderstorm, thx on my thoughts. Maybe the idea was that Horace gets to build his home over the tunnels as long as he builds his cabin over vent, I dunno. More than likely, I want to think that RA, through Jacob, told the DI where to build the barracks, with the fighting having something to do with something we've yet to see. RA's deadline for Dharma coincides with the 1977 timeline and it now makes sense that the Purge happened because the DI disregarded the Truce. (The Truce could always have been amended after the Incident.)

I'll leave the tapestry to smarter folk, I like me my mimeographed (or onion-skinned) pages to mull over.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

More thoughts. What if Widmore supervised D'ville? Easy enough to say, hey look, we know this place better than you, build right here. An inside joke, since they knew Jughead was right beneath them. Also, I'm thinking someone headed up things before Horace. Maybe that person had at least minimal knowledge of the ruins beneath D'ville.

I reread everything re: the tapestry and am further intrigued by it all. Is everyone leaning towards the trinity being Jacob, MIB and RA? I'm thinking RA replaced the original third member of the trinity, whomever that might have been. Just throwing that out there.

Thunderstorm said...

In terms of a "trinity", I think it's more likely Jacob + MIB + "The Island" or Jacob + MIB + Taweret/Female entity

I think there almost has to be a link between Jacob's "Others" ad Dharma, in some respect.

Might make sense if Widmore was doing it secretly. For instance, one example might be that he was highly interested in the time research. Perhaps trying to figure a way he could save his son.

And perhaps he sent Desmond, his effective "son" (in law), to try and administer this change.

IN that respect, it puts Ellie and Charles against each other like the other old married couple, Jack and Locke. Ellie believes in 'destiny' (or the futility of trying to change things) while Charles is actively trying to change things.
Something like that...

RE: tapestry
So nobody knows what the glyphs on the top and bottom lines are?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thunderstorm, a few entries back, I threw out the idea of Eloise and Widmore being analogues for Jacob and MIB. My idea being that Widmore seemed trapped in thinking that he could never return to the Island. And you also mentioned Jack and Locke, so there's that.

We see the trinity often enough, I suppose the first that comes to my mind is Jack, Kate and Sawyer, then there's the three cabins, the Cerberus Vents, and all the cabalistic stuff associated with the number 3. But we have also been force-fed the idea of TWONESS (not being dramatic, I just don't know how to italicize), way before Mirror Moon Theory. BAD TWIN begat all the other mirror twins.

So which is it? 2 or 3? The big box you imagine or the round record that keeps skipping?

I'm trying to connect the two ways they have us analyzing everything, its gotten more like a hall of mirrors than a mirror image of things.

And if there is a war coming, why does there only have to be two sides, good vs. evil? I'm just ranting now. But I really want to figure out these sneaky Hollywood bastards before we are too far into S6. There IS a trinity in the show, determinism, free will, and indifference.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Sorry Thunderstorm, the blending of demotic and hieratic glyphs as well as some unknown, apparently customized pictograms make those lines pretty tough to crack, but what I have so far is:

"(unknown word) strikes again, and I've got no right to take my place with the human race"


... just kidding - I have no clue when it comes to hieroglyphics! (BTW - I'll personally e-mail a dollar to the first person who knows what the missing word is in the above lyric.)

Anyhow, without treading into some of the spoiler discussion, it occurred to me that the six armed figure on the red tapestry may fit into the three headed/trinity discussion. Six arms could equate to three persons in one. Interestingly enough, following this thought I came across info on

"The eight Dharmapalas, Protectors of the teaching of the buddhas... embodiments of compassion that can manifest out of Emptiness to act in an extremely wrathful way for the sake of sentient beings...
Tantric texts describe the very wrathful deities as terrifying. Stout with short but very strong limbs, many have several heads, hands and feet. Their complexions are likened to storm clouds...
Mahakala [Great Dark One] is the name given to a number of the wrathful forms...
The details of Mahakala's form depend on the different lineages and situation contexts. There are several six-armed ones characteristic of the dharma protector."

O.K. Maybe it was the combination of the number 8 with the phrase "dharma protector" and the storm cloud imagery that made me think this meant something. In any event, interesting to note that some depictions of Mahakala and like beings have a combination of six arms with three faces or heads. It appears that this was used as a way to show that such supernatural creatures had multiple aspects - often benevolence blended with terrible wrath.

Thunderstorm said...

Only if you send me my dollar in the form of 20 wooden nickels, Agent Smith.

I like the number 3, Wayne.

We've got 2's, 3's, 4's, Oceanic Sixes, and 8's.

If you've got an Ace or a 5 among your hole cards, you've flopped a straight. :)

Stream of random consciousness...

Sarpedon was a demigod. Half-human, half-God. So was Gilgamesh. According to our friendly neighbor 'wikipedia' demigods were often spawned by the God, while there was a 'father' still in play. Daddy issues? Anthony Cooper and the Immaculate Reception? I mean Franco Harris...I mean, Immaculate Conception?

Gilgamesh made a descent into the underworld. Taweret guarded the paths to the underworld, she often used "magic" to ward off evil spirits from expectant mothers. She would use Apotropaic "Wands" or magic knives, that looked like boomerangs. Maybe even a crate of boomerangs...

anyhow this warding off evil spirits is called Apotropaic Magic. Like an apotropaic ash circle, maybe even around a cabin. The apotropaic magic page on wiki, has a picture of that airplane with the Nazar on it's tail. The "evil eye" which is of course, actually used in or very similar to the Oceanic Airlines logo.


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@NetProphet. The word you left blank is either Elvis or Rumsfeld. I can't decide.

@Thunderstorm, yea, I get the crate of boomerangs reference from the early mobisode, the same boomerang logo we see in Walkabout, if memory serves. I've often wondered why they showed this scene w/o incorporating it into the show, as boomerangs would have been decent weapons. So, by having the boomerangs mentioned, and I think even displayed in the logo (I'm going by some sort of info or trivia associated with that particular mobisode), you might have something there.

So is Gilgamesh Locke as per the crossword puzzle the camera lingered on back in the Hatch? Locke wrote Enkidu likely knowing he was filling in one answer and disregarding that any of the other words were correct. Does that mean anything at all, because otherwise they would have simply shown a correct puzzle.

Oh, and the number game...Desmond is the wild card. Does that make him an ace? When I mentioned indifference in the trinity, I was thinking of someone like Ben, who could care less what happened just so he could have his way. Widmore might fall into that category, as well.

Capcom said...

No, MIB doesn't seme like a domesticated kind of guy to me either Wayne. But the tapestry could more likely be the story of his influence on whomever has reached/breached the island. The main thing that makes it seem related to MIB rather than Jacob, is that the cloth we know to be by Jacob looks more beneficent and how Jacob views things with hope and progress. And the other one reflects MIBs attitude about mankind, that it's all one failing mess after another. ???

It is even more curious now about the DI cottage sitting over ruins and an entrance, after seeing the "off limits to ruins" point in the Truce. Hmm. I still get a nagging feeling that Horace was a sympathizer somehow. It seemed important to him to be a mediator for all, but maybe there's more to him than just that.

Sawyer falls into your trinity in the indifference category too Wayne. For the three main guys: Jack, Locke, and Sawyer. We know what the first two are, and Sawyer was always scoffing at caring about anything. It could be argued that Sayid was also a male at the spearhead, but he was more of a rogue type...and he actually embodied all three concepts at various times. So he might not specifically fit into only one of the three tips of the triton as J,J,&S would. Just a thought.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey Capcom. Sawyer was indifferent at the beginning of the show, maybe even deterministic with his con man ways. But I think by S5, even S4, he has changed. Ben is the indifferent one, he never cares about anyone else but himself, and the only justification for his love for Alex was that she was a replacement for Annie. It can also be said that everyone who left the Island had indifference--some more than others--towards those left behind. And, like him or not, Desmond is the most selfish of the bunch. I mainly was trying to come up with a trinity that fits the determinism/free will motif.

I think both the tapestry AND the letter are for added info as per the ARGs. I don't think MIB made the tapestry, but if we do see it, I'll bet it is in the Temple and has been uncompleted for a long time. The letter really give a layer of frustration with RA towards Dharma. I love the line about if all the legal wordage was necessary. I dunno, I still think there is something to the word pre-existing being crossed out. Kind of like, on second thought, even that statue you saw fall over? Yea, stay away from that, too.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Something else I'd been wanting to bring up. Are there any clues in that Final Season poster with Locke having his back turned? I mean, the order of the characters on both sides of Locke. Is he looking at us suspiciously or is he looking at Ben, his helper? Be interesting if there are any connections from those in front and those bringing up the rear. Oh, and make the true middle Kate, Jacke, and Sawyer. Then we can see Locke with Eko, again, I dunno. Since each of these photos are separate, I'm just thinking that they are placed in what might be telling ways. Thoughts?

Oh, and certainly whatever the red tapestry means is important to decipher, just saying I'm not thinking at all that MIB wove that thing. Sorry about my ignorance here, but could the red tapestry be something that is draped over a coffin, sarcophagus, etc.?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Back to the poster. Locke/Eko. Ben/Desmond. Sayid/Shannon. There might be comparisons made for Jin and Michael (the Kahana explosion) and even Libby and Charlotte, if one would think there's a chance that Libby had a bigger part in Island history. You can match up RA with Miles, as well. Again, likely nothing, just something to Martin Mull over on a crappy Monday afternoon.

Capcom said...

Oh sure, Sawyer/James has changed. And Locke and Jack also fluctuated in their initial postions/beliefs as well (Locke waffled maybe a hundred times, haha), so that's why I didn't bring that aspect up.

I like your idea about the tapestry.

I assumed that any Locke images with his back to us in promos since last season just meant Not-Locke. I haven't really looked at the order or arrangement of the characters in the lastest promos yet, I usually do check that.

Greg Tramel said...

INTERESTING comments you all everybody

the opening eye at the beginning of many episodes could be a apotropaic eye sigil

in addition to a signifier for the Eye of Horus and the Eye of Ra

Greg Tramel said...

and yes, trinities abound on Lost, i think of the paring as representative of ying/yang dualism or Janus or alchemical twin metaphor

Greg Tramel said...

and Locke's box of knives could evoke Tarewet's crate of boomerangs

Capcom said...

LOL, knives and boomerangs. :-)

Let's not forget all the love-trinities that TPTB have thrown at us since S1. Oh wait, let's do forget about them.

Greg Tramel said...

Lost/Horus/Nazar trinity

Greg Tramel said...

yep, i like the Tarewet/Jacob/MIB love triangle much more than those forgettable triangles

Greg Tramel said...

speaking of magic knives called apotropaic wands

Taweret was called Great of Sorcery

"Sekhmet, a ferocious lion goddess (Ajira logo anyone?), brought death and destruction when she accompanied the pharaoh on his campaigns of war"

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, there's a nice hi-res version of that poster where someone separated each character to make the scene wider. Much easier to try and make pairings, if there really are any. I knew that Locke facing away was exactly what it seemed, but whenever there's the obvious, there's also the obscured. Or not, ha ha. I might just have too much time on my hands.

I'll need to read through the spoiler post to get up to speed, but I don't know why everyone is talking a trinity that we have already seen, whether the 3rd part be the Island or Tarawet or even RA. There could easily be someone--spiritually or symbolically--who is the last part of the trinity that we've yet to see. Then there's the joke about Tarawet being the goddess of fertility (and the northern sky, mind you, where we can see the Crab Nebula), and Jacob and MIB coming from the, ah, mothership.

Seriously, though. An as-yet unseen foil for both Jacob and MIB, or part of the trinity, or however you put it. Thoughts?

neoloki said...


The unknown word is...drumroll... BIGMOUTH and the band is The Smiths off the record Queen is Dead!

thank you...(i bow and back out of the room)

neoloki said...

oh and the song title is Bigmouth Strikes Again..

well, the is my cultural contribution for the day.

better than all that Gilgamesh, Cyrillic, Sarpedon nonsense, LOL!

Hey what if Richard wove that tapestry, because I don't think MIB is the tapestry weaving type, as Wayne referred to earlier.

f/k/a NetProphet said...


Good work sir - I'm working on stuffing that dollar into an e-mail right now! For some reason, that song runs through my head everytime I come here. (BTW - it's not meant as any kind of slam on our host; just a random synapse firing in my miswired brain.)

Wayne Allen Sallee:

I actually think your guesses are better than the real answer!

Anyhow... hope to be back later with something useful and on topic to contribute to the thread.

Greg Tramel said...

i MISS The Smiths, yeah i know his solo career is still going but it's not quite the same

oh, and i'm thinking the Egyptian Book of The Dead pharaoh that came back to the island war is Locke in a box

neoloki said...

Thanks Netprophet. I guess I am just showing my age.
Greg, yeah, Morrissey solo is nowhere near what The Smiths where.
Wayne, Titus Wellivur speculated that MIB and Jacob answer to somebody, but I doubt if there is a third, a little late in the game for it, would be much of an active player in the game.

Capcom said...

Morrissey...the original Emo, heheh.

FWI, the final chapter of the poster event is happening right now at the G1988 gallery in LA. So far, Lost fans have begun to queue up on the sidewalk and get to know each other, and a nice fan in NY ordered a DI food drop to be delivered for their breakfast. Follow at LostARGS, of course, but the final poster is said to have a couple/few teases for S6 (according to DocJ), so beware of spoilery spoilers in the reveal maybe. I doubt that there will be much spoiled, but then again I didn't expect the "freckage" in Find815 either. Anyway the most fun, even if there is no interest in the poster, is following the unfailing camaraderie of the fans and everyone's kindness and generosity throughout the live events of this ARG.

That would be interesting if MIB/Jacob answered to someone, somewhere. It puts a whole new angle on their diverse intentions, almost making it more like a competition to win rather than just a difference of opinion.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, i showed the pictures to my coworkers for proof there are Lost fans more fanatical than me

i think there is definitely a higher power than Jacob

maybe the Pleiadians, jk, sorta

Greg Tramel said...

speaking of love triangles, an odd take on Lost

Tiger Love Triangle

neoloki said...


will you let us (me) know when they reveal the last poster? I am VERY interested. I guess the whole thing is centered around an art show of original paintings based on Lost. If you see anything interesting...


neoloki said...

If there is a higher power I would have to place my vote on The Island. As others have mentioned it is quite possible the Island is sentient.

any links for better, more detailed, pics of the red tapestry?

Greg Tramel said...

i'm kinda thinking there won't be another poster and the red ? reveal is the art show


neoloki said...

New Jensen article partially dealing with "the truce

Greg Tramel said...

yes, the Island works for me as the higher power

nothing new on the red tapestry front as far as i know

neoloki said...

greg, what?

Greg Tramel said...

i think on the dcaapb website where it says I'm Packed for LA used to be a red ?

right Capcom?

Greg Tramel said...

and here the red ? is in the middle of invitation to the art opening

but the red ? is still here at the top (before the reveals it was just black ?)

neoloki said...

the flyer for the show says come see all 16 poster's. so that implies that they have one yet to reveal. plus Jensen is talking about the 16th poster in the article I linked to above. so I expect to see a 16th with clues to season 6.

Greg Tramel said...

oh ok, haven't read the article yet

I'M WRONG, ignore my last several posts

neoloki said...

no no no i was wondering the same myself. given the new artwork that will be shown at the show.

Greg Tramel said...

ok, i'm out to lunch and to read the article

there are 16 frames here but i suppose the last one doesn't count

Greg Tramel said...

ok i'm psyched, guess i will be following Jeff Jensen's twitter tonight but my wife won't be too happy, she HATES twitter with a passion and most times i agree but this is an EXCELLENT use of twitter

BTW, i posted the red tapestry on Jeff Jensen's and Damon Lindelof's facebook pages but i highly doubt they will comment but it's worth a shot

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I've been waiting for someone to say something about the corner of the red tapestry being torn away just as Jacob's was, pretty much in the same area. Unless someone did and I missed it. In which case, Elvis and Rumsfeld.

I read an email from Greg when I got in from the readings about 1 AM, and promptly told him, watch, I'll forget this completely. Which I did. About the posters I mean.

I swear, this talk about lining up for whatever people are lining up for seems...well, I guess its not as bad as waiting at Wal-Mart at 4 AM for an Elmo doll. I've mentioned to a few of you in emails how there are several publishers who will print up a limited edition signed book (not Print On Demand), the thing gets sold out hours after its available, with the author lucky to have two or three copies of his own, and the majority of fans SOL. That's why I really don't like this poster angle, I really think the gallery guys came up with a neat let's make bathtubs of money gimmick and they tied it in with a few LOST clues. As with the books, the whole limited print thing sucks to me, why not just label them A-Z and raise the prices even more? End of rant.

But back to the tapestry, man. It's torn. Was it maybe ripped because that happened when the tapestry was torn from the wall it was on?

Greg Tramel said...

i've enjoyed seeing what the artists came up with and my curiosity is peaked for tonight's last reveal but i doubt i would wait in line overnight or try my luck for a 50 buck poster but that's more because I’m cheap (and poor) and a wimp in the cold weather

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i just figured it was torn to make it look lke it's been around for awhile and ripped off a (Temple?) wall or something

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Cold weather, huh? Hey, I have to live with it but I'm nowhere near a fan of it. Back in the 90s, it hit 106, then never went below 85 for 76 straight hours, when I was working downtown & wearing a suit. I relished it, hallucinations and all.

That's what I'm getting at about the prices, Greg. I brought up altruism to a newer writer last night--she had brought up using pseudonyms--and in regards to the books, I would expect a writer, one who is making little of the book to begin with, to want that book available to more readers and in particularly maybe garnish still more fans from that. Capcom was surprised when I told her how often that happens nowadays. Not to me (once, in a similar fashion, in the 90s), but a guy up north was totally frustrated to tell everyone he had a book out but no copies to even show off. You just hope the book gets picked up for paperback rights.

I'm assuming its different with the posters, as each artist presumably has a following already and still will after this is done with. Phillip Tan did the Oceanic poster (#2?), and I've been collecting his stuff for about five years. Another factor, I don't have room for posters, I have room for a nice 9x11 Tan pencil sketch, though. Signed by him in person, and it set me back five bucks.

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

i know i know, its only 51 right now but i'm feeling it in my bones, must be the dampness

i’m not familiar with any of the artists but I thought some we’re pretty cool, 5 bucks does sound much more reasonable and they would probably have made the same if thy printed thousands of them and get bigger exposure, so yes i agree with you

Greg Tramel said...

Maven's at the gallery

Greg Tramel said...

here's a good place to watch the twitter feeds

neoloki said...

I understand the cynicism Wayne. Not about the price (have you seen what people are trying to sell them for on Ebay? 500 and up) but about the distribution #. They sell out online in under 2 min. It is slightly mystifying considering they don't need to generate demand, Lost being a world wide brand and all, and this is all being done under the guise of fan appreciation. However, the quality of the illustrations have been generally high and the basic concept has been fun and compelling. I am hoping once it is done they will run off copies for 5 bucks a pop. this will still allow for the original prints to appreciate in value while the copies can generate more income for the artist's while being accessible to a wider range of fan's.

neoloki said...

Greg. Are you on the west coast? Do you have any idea what time they may reveal the last piece?

neoloki said...

here is the URL for the poster tonight. It should be revealed around 7pst. Dark will have a live stream.

Greg Tramel said...

nope, i'm in Houston

here's a video

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg & neoloki, this wasn't a print I'm talking about. Tan just sketched whatever you asked, but I do know artists who make prints to sell at the conventions, as well. The original will be at the art showing, the prints in the dealers room.

The eBay posters are for crap, that's what skewers the writing market, too, though I suppose Amazon plays a part on my end. So of each print run of, what, 50 posters?, I'd bet an easy 35 of them are/were on eBay.

Greg, so will we see the torn piece of the red tapestry as we did the piece of Jacob's?

Also, look at Desmond's mural that Big uses. People over here in the past have brushed it off as just a piece of art that a set designer painted on request (I'll bet those who mentioned it here were part of Dark's flock(e), no one here from the last year or so). The upper left corner could be (well, represent) the tapestries, the red splashes along with the beige. I know in the past, the stick figures have been considered the survivors, but they can possibly be seen as a simpler version of the figures on the tapestries. And one is falling (from grace?) and highlighted, the line leading to the sun figure.

Easy to see these things because the mural is here every time I click on this site, and just now I noticed, maybe for the first time, the red mixed with the beige. It could also be a tablet, or the Temple wall, as there seems to be the night sky and stars at the uppermost edge.

Capcom said...

OK, back from shopping. You all are good to go on the poster thing with Greg's links, etc. I'm thinking that I will have to pass this one by and not even try if I like it, because the price shows as "$??.??" and that doesn't bode well. All the other ones said $50.oo right away. The two that I got already seroiusly tapped out my VISA during Xmas, I might have to sell one of them.

The 'On Sale' reveal is tomorrow night I guess, at either 5:52PST or 11:52PST, depending on whether one last clue is missing. Either way gives me time to get back from the nephew's Xmas pagent. Some hints: be ready to F5 the screen every couple seconds, to see when the 'On Sale' button goes live. Then you'll have about 10 seconds to fill in the information and get through the sale. If you get an error, F5 again and keep going, that seems to work, errors are common. Good luck everyone who tries!

"...bathtubs of money gimmick...", I agree. And it's brought out some sickening greed in some fans as well. :-(

Capcom said...

Interesting thoughts about the mural Wayne.

Capcom said...

P.S.S. Interesting triangle/tiger/bluehand link Greg. At this point in Tiger's saga though, if he's in a triangle, it's one like that puzzle that asks how many triangles are in the picture and there's about 27 of them!

neoloki said...

here is a drawing from the show at Gallery1988. It is not the 16th print, but in my opinion is one of the best Lost inspired things I have seen.

It is called Lockeness Monster

p.s. not for the faint of heart.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I should be reading up on the Iliad tonight, Greg will be happy to know it is now -15. Neoloki, I'm sure you get some crummy nighttime lows up in Seattle, right? The other thing about the posters, and Capcom has talked more about this on her own blog, is that they really aren't all that great. I think the bar was set high by putting the iLocke poster first, and while the Tan poster was nice, for those following the show, the characters were more stylized. Which is fine, and I did enjoy the colors. But Hurley and the VW van? And the coloring scheme on the radio tower one. Eye of the beholder, and all.

My 'bathtubs of money' line comes from the fact that all this went into motion after the San Diego Comic-Con. Granted, the individual art, etc., might have been commissioned months before, but somewhere along the way, someone (not pointing a finger at the gallery owner) said, hey, here's an idea for some dough. And so if the idea had formulated a year back, there might have been the posters following S4. And, quite possibly, I'd have put out the cabbage for a poster of my man Faraday.

neoloki said...

the quality of the prints is neither here nor there. some are quite bad (the VW van) and some are quite good (the cabin). My worry when I first heard of this project was they would be too representational of scenes on the show and what would the point in that be if we can just watch the show to see the image. The overly stylized ones are actually my favorite (the swan). I have to say though I have enjoyed the reveals and the whole process. Some of the original artwork at the gallery tonight, paintings and sculptures, are quite a bit better than the prints, but that is not surprising. Printmaking is so full of limitations.

Oh, yeah, someone is making a ton of money off this venture..

neoloki said...

32 is cold in Seattle which would probably feel downright tropical to you in Chicago. I spent 3 yrs. in Philly so I do know what a real winter is like.

Capcom said...

Lottery Ticket's live stream:

Quite fun!

Capcom said...

Whoa, that's not exactly something most people could put in their lving room...or TV room.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

32 is almost t-shirt weather for getting the mail, when it hits 32 in March, its even warmer (more sun), more like walking the dog weather.

I didn't know anything about sculptures or the other things you mentioned. Actually, I never saw the cabin or Swan poster, but the VW and the Hurley one were very complex. And, yes, stylized works just fine by me, but my favorite remains iLocke. I'm guessing DarkUFO has his feed going on or whatever, so I'll read up on it tomorrow. I still haven't read Jeff Jensen's article yet.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, LT went to LA for this? She must have bathtubs full of money to get around like that. She was down here for Chang Napkin Night.

Capcom said...

Apparently so! She's got the cam.

Here is supposedly poster VISA is very happy that it isn't what I'd hoped for:

neoloki said...

yeah, not real big on that aesthetically but it is kind of what i expected, a very loaded image that will be much more interesting to pick apart.

it will nice to see a clear picture of the poster.

neoloki said...

it hasn't been confirmed yet, has it?

Capcom said...

It's not confirmed yet. They are giving that one out for free, but apparently it's on the wall in line with the other 15, so it's very confusing.

Are y'all watching LT's stream? It's amazing, almost like being there.

Capcom said...

The poster consensus is.....these freebees are shiny, so are only pirnts and not the screened versions. Either way, I won't need to F5 for a half an hour for this one, yay.

neoloki said...

is the 16th print even going to be revealed tonight? LT just lost her battery. to many people in that small space for me.

Capcom said...

So far LostARG peeps figure that it is going on sale tomorrow evening/night at some time. They are still working on the clues, or until it finally gets posted on the Hub page. Stay posted over there on the main page, Zort will keep on it for us.

Did you all see the MIB painting? Quite awesome:

P.S. I kinda like the Outer Space Astronaut show on SeeFee channel. It reminds me of that Seth Green Chicken-Something show.


Capcom said...

Oh Wayne,I just saw this!:

If we can't get you one somehow, I'll paint one for you, I used to paint T-shirts for local bands, I can do it. :-)

Thunderstorm said...

FTR, I said "Agent SMITH" for a reason...;)

Anyhow, I have written off the whole marketing/DVD/pseudo ARG/fan appreciation thing as a way for ABC-Disney to make some money. Darlton pacifying them and therefore stopping any executive meddling that might have been a casualty of a show that took a ratings hit and continued to get more 'difficult'.

So yeah, that might be an apologist view but whatever...

A person over on Dark posted this in a theory comment.

Screencap from Season 2 premiere.
Jack enters the hatch for the first time.

The crane from The Incident? Would be awesome foreshadowing.

Wayne, given that the #3 person on the show (Bender) painted that mural, you can't discount anything in it. I am with you.

neoloki said...

I don't see a crane

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@thunderstorm, I've always been looking at the mural, from the Elizabeth to the Black Rock, etc. There is a site that highlights certain areas and you can see the word WALT right around the 108 and the sun rays. I remember getting all pooh-poohed on, but we all know everything happens for a reason, even Bender being asked to paint a mural. Of course, its all foreshadowing, no clues for S6. Just another reminder that most everything was in plain sight all along.

@neoloki, I haven't checked out much of what was posted tonight, but maybe the crane you don't see is a hangman game instead. Just sayin.

Capcom, thx for the links. For some reason a lot of the links besides Greg's aren't highlighting up so I'll check them all later. LT is from Madison, Wisconsin, so that's why I wondered if she was really there. Long trip, but better weather, for sure.

And, you know, Thunderstorm, I'd kinda forgotten about the whole ABC-Disney wanting a piece of the pie BS. Yep, they are in on it.

Thunderstorm said...

The metal bits cemented in to the walls. The collapsing crane from the Incident.

I'm not saying that's it, but if it is, then it was pretty cool foreshadowing.

Greg Tramel said...

the painting of MIB is pretty cool

i watched some LT livefeed, neat idea

maybe i'll watch some of the videos today (when i'm not on the desk, OF COURSE, LOL)

Greg Tramel said...

i wonder why Sayid is in the poster twice (if that is him carrying somebody) and who is he carrying, Claire?

what's up with Hurley holding the torch with an ankh i it's flame?

final poster

Capcom said...

Sorry about the links Wayne, I was in too much of a hurry to post them hyper-wise and just copy/pasted. Can you see the MIB link and the Lcoke T-shirt link? If not I'll repost with hyperlinks (or Greg may beat me too it, haha). The T-shirt is the Locke poster, and they were selling it in the gallery, as opposed to giving it away, so maybe it will also be sold online soon with their other Ts. If not, let me know if you'd want a reasonable fascimile. I'm already thinking that I might make one for my brother anyway.

Some people (not me) playing the poster ARG are of a mind that ABC and TPTB are actually losing money on this poster thing, with all that they have to do paying the artists, the two venues (Gomerch and G1988), making the posters affordable, etc., but I find that very hard to believe.

Yes, I've been 'monitoring' the mural myself every season to see if any events 'show up' on it after they happen! Granted, a lot of creative devices are going to be dreamed up along the way, but if the planned specifics for the plot and climax were completed before the mural was made, I have no doubt that they could be in there, for sure.

Thanks for the better link Greg. I'm so happy that I don't really like it. Yes, it's very iconic and all, but I was hoping for a very spacey RA scene with him in the center, and the BR and the temple and maybe some symbolism from his past around him. I really don't see how this poster is S6 spoilery at all, but for maybe that we are to assume that all those dead people will be somehow shown again. But if we weren't told that it was an S6 tease, it would just look like another "Crash" poster actually.

Greg Tramel said...

you can pretty much ignore the4 links i sent last night because everything is linked to Lost Args, some cool examples from the art show and videos from last night

i'll read the comments on the final poster to see if there are any nuggets there

Lost Art Gallery Opening

i'm actually impressed with some of the artworks including the Lockeness Monster Neoloki mentioned

Lost Art Gallery Opening

Bigmouth said...

I don't love the last poster. It would have been more powerful if everything had been in black and white, except maybe "LOST" in red. Interesting that Hurley's torch has an ankh...

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

here's more links to vidoes last night on Wayne's 2nd favorite

LOST Underground Art Project at Gallery 1988 – Video

Greg Tramel said...

only thing i've gleened so far is somebody said the countdown symbols are in the sky but they are really hard to see

neoloki said...

here is one as Ben as the puppet master. this one is the best for me.

the reveal. the flame is an ankh. the Odi said it was a clue, for what that's worth. apparently the other clue has not been found..

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I cut & pasted the links, Capcom, I didn't know if it was a Blogger issue. The shirt looks cool, and I ended up going to Etsy and Cafe Press to see if they were selling the shirt. That IS the one I'd buy, tho. And, by the way, I keep saying iLocke. My bad. There is a lime green poster of a mocke iPod poster, with Locke sitting as if on the beach. I had it in my head whenever I talked about the "Don't Tell Me" poster.

Greg Tramel said...

i posted what i think might be a poster clue on the spoiler post

Greg Tramel said...

here's another blog to look at the art from last night

Lost Art Show

Capcom said...

New G1099 blog w/ pix:

Sorry for not hyperlink, gotta run to about the 10th Xmas pagent this year.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, no worries on hyperlinks. Again, I thought it might be Blogger. I want that Locke shirt from the twitpic. Where are they selling them in that photo?

I'm going to sneak over to the spoilers page, hoping to not see a list of returning dead people. Let me ask this, are there dead people on a MIB poster? Are there two separate posters people are talking about now?

Returning dead people: Helen#2, Elvis, Glenn Beck. Am I close?

Capcom said...

I don't think that there are two MIB paintings. At Lostargs we were talking aobut numbering all the objects in the picture, and naming them like in the Linder Gallery legend, so I'm going to put a post up for that on my blog. Now that I have numbered all the objects tho, it doesn't seem all that mysterious, but I'll do it anyway.

Do you mean the Locke poster Tshirt? Unfortunately Jensen has just said that they are only selling it in the gallery. WTH?! They could make a zillions bucks off of that one, and they sell other Ts on their site, I don't get it. I promise, I am going to work on that cloning project after Xmas.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Yep, Capcom, it was the shirt in your twitpic link. It makes sense, kind of, that they only sell the shirts at the gallery on the day they'll make the most money. I'd think differently if these shirts are never sold anywhere else. Let me know when your blog post goes up. I'm staying away from the poster thing right now because I'm assuming, maybe wrongly, that there are spoilers on the latest poster.

Capcom said...

I don't think that there are any spoilers on the poster IMO, accept if you were told that there were spoilers or hints (which we were), then you would say, "Oh, then all of these certain people are going to be in S6?" Or maybe they're not, maybe it's just another version of The Crash, which it looks like to me. Nothing obvious that I could tell, but don't look if you don't even want to know that much. There are mystery things that Jensen or someone has pointed out, but we don't know what they mean yet, like symbols. Nothing too obvious, but what does eveyrone else here think who looked at it, should Wayne look?

I posted the MIB painting with labels on my blog. Have gotten a lot of help with the harder things so far, but there are still a couple items up in the air, so input is welcome. :-)

neoloki said...

the poster is a mess of inference and the abject foolishness that is going on over at Dark's blog under that topic is asinine. Yes, I, humbly, think it is more than safe for Wayne to look at.
Also, let me know if you ever make those shirts.

Capcom said...

Heheh, I take it you don't like this rendition Neoloki? Neither did I really and I was releaved, I was emotionally finished with the catfights that this poster project put everyone through a few reveals back, ugh. It was a fantastic effort on the part of TPTB and very special, but criminee, every poster reveal was like a bunch of starving lions fighting over the last zebra on the plains. Just too darned exclusive.

Anyway, I'll have to go check out the talk at Dark's about the poster for laughs, is it easy to find? Or is it just on SpoilerTV? Tx.

I'll probably be trying out a prototype of the Tshirt some time after Xmas. If it works out I'll let you know.

neoloki said...

yeah, the print doesn't do anything for me, but mostly it is the comments that I find impossible to take seriously. Sure there are always a few bloggers that have very imaginative ideas and great insight, but it just ends up feeling like a large group of vultures fighting over a meatless carcass.

Capcom said...


Greg Tramel said...

i usually don't read the comments on Lost blogs (except Big's and Capcom's, of course)

but without the link to a closeup on poster 16 in the comments i probably wouldn't have found the clue in the sky but other than that it was a waste of time reading the DarkUFO poster post comments, IMHO

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx for the info, gang. I'm still confused as to if there is an MIB poster as well as the one with the jumble of people or if everyone is talking about the same one.

I finally read Jensen's column, and I am guessing that the ankh and the flame are the two clues for S6. What we were joking about yesterday. The one thing I might add is that I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Flame was the first Dharma station whose name deviated from mythology surrounding Apollo. Flame=sun, but it wasn't an obvious reference like Swan or Arrow. So for anyone on board with the flame being a metaphor for Jacob's death, the phoenix, and/or hell, I'd go with the flame referring to some sort of communication.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, here's a link to the MIB portrait we are talking about which for all practical purposes i doubt canon but cool none the less

MIB as Mr Death Time

also Capcom has a neat numbered version with an encyclopedic list of items on her blog

Project Memento Mori

neoloki said...

I should say that I do read the comments quite frequently over at Darkufo and participate in them. I also like his site quite a bit because you can't beat it for the glut of information that appears there. The problem with the comment section over there is derived rom the huge numbers of people that Flock(e), lol, to his site.

neoloki said...

that was my little shout out to wayne (e)...

Greg Tramel said...

DARKUFO is in my feedreader so yes i do read many of the posts (except that Pro Cup stuff was really getting on my nerves)

but i'll leave reading and posting comments to Others

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Some say Flock(e) some say Pudding Pop(e). Or something. Greg mentioned seeing a list of people coming back in S6 and I thought this was an MIB poster. I hadn't looked at the latest poster but saw all the faces, so I just figured I'd check before I look at that one.

Capcom said...

Yes,the MIB painting is separate from the final Lost poster #16. The only things that makes it canon is that it's got the items from the past that we are familiar with, tho I doubt any items from things to come. But I numbered his belt anyway just in case, haha.

LOL about Dark's you guys. I don't want to be mean, but there's just too many young'uns over there for my taste now. Not that I care about age at all, just the ones who act like kids in the head, regardless of age. But DarkUFO is one of my favorite places to haunt for Lost info since TLE.

Interesting thoughts about the stations, Wayne.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx, Capcom. Sometimes I think I'm just pulling something out of my @$$, but we know for a fact that everything happens for a reason. So for those thinking resurrection, I'm thinking communication. Maybe it will be about Miles & Hurley tag-teaming the ghosts.

I went over to your site, and saw its up to about 60 comments. I'm assuming you were adding items piece by piece? It seemed this way by some of the comments. Nice job, but I'm sorry, whoever painted MIB has him looking like Andre the Giant. Not saying its a bad painting, tho.

neoloki said...

yeah, Titus Wellivur looks a little too much like Vincent D'Onofrio in the painting.

wayne, that would mean pulling stuff out of your ass happens for a reason too. LOL. maybe that is the loophole, ha ha ha.


f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just wanted to warn Wayne Allen Sallee:

New hangman game up over at DarkUFO. The last hangman was responsible for breaking my anti-spoiler resolve. I went into forbidden territory in pursuit of what I saw as an intellectual challenge and ended up on a long, dark spiral downward into spoiler dependency.

So hold out brother! Only several more weeks to go....

Greg Tramel said...

oh, not another one

who is this "source" that is creating them?

Capcom said...

Bwahaha, MIB does look pretty fleshy and puffyhaired in that painting, and with a wrestler's scowl. :o)

Yes, we filled in the blanks of the numbered items along the way. I need to update a few things today.

Heheh, you guys quack me up, it's great to come here every day. :-D

Bigmouth said...

Capcom: We're all a little quackadoo LOL!

pôncio pilatos said...

"The [D.I. can only] maximum population of D.I. members cannot exceed 216 at any one time on the island."

why 216? 108 x 2?