EYE M SICK: The Widmore Family Circle....

Tuesday, December 22, 2009

The Widmore Family Circle....

In the comments to a recent post, Cameron raised a possibility that's so deliciously whackadoo it merits a separate discussion. What if cute little Charlie Hume grows up to become none other than Charles Widmore himself?

I've long maintained that Penny and Desmond are Adam and Eve. In 2004, Jack estimates the bodies in the cave have been dead for about 50 years, which would place their deaths around 1954. Charlie Hume is three in 2008, and Charles Widmore seventeen in 1954. My guess, therefore, is that Penny, Desmond, and Charlie will return to the Island on a bearing that sends them back in time to 1940. Charlie will grow up on the Island, join the Others, and become their co-leader with Eloise.

This means, of course, that Charles Widmore is actually his own grandfather. I'm reminded of my favorite episode of Futurama, Roswell That Ends Well, where Fry mistakenly kills his grandfather in the past. He then sleeps with his grandmother, becoming his own grandpa. Ben putting metal in the Orchid Chamber may actually be a sly reference to this episode. The Planet Express crew is hurtled back in time when Fry places a metal "Iffy Pop" container into the ship's microwave during a supernova.

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Another great example of such ontological paradox is Robert Heinlein's short story "-- All You Zombies --" wherein the protagonist is his own mother and father thanks to time travel and a sex change. Eventually, we learn he/she's a time cop, manipulating events to complete the causal loop of his/her self-creation. Darlton may be fans of this well known time travel story, too. The protagonist wears a ring with a snake eating its tail, like Ms. Hawking's Ouroboros brooch.

I suspect that Charlie and Ellie have been working similarly to preserve the ontological paradox that is Widmore. To paraphrase one of my older posts, In Gott We Trust, when seventeen-year old Charlie Hume lays his parents' bodies to rest in the cave five decades in the past, the Widmore family circle will be complete at last.

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

281 comments:

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Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Widmore, then, is the compass. Locke gives the compass to Richard who gives it to Locke 50 years later, the whole where did it originate thing. Just to keep the rounding off of the numbers in the year, I'd think they end up in 1938 or even 1937. (Is it ever stated how old Widmore is in 1954?) Also, everyone goes by Jack's statement in the cave, and he is hardly CSI material. The one thing, though, is Jack mentioned fifty years in his guesstimate. And we've since seen that half a decade means something, maybe seventy years works just as well.

The other thing, here, is that I think that Eloise being pregnant with Faraday in 1977 was a dodge. Creepy as it is, I've always suspicioned that Desmond was Widmore's and Eloise's son. He has double the Island magic going for him. Maybe this is what makes him the true wild card, he is father to his OWN father.

People might go, eww, sick, but in "All You Zombies" there's a lot more than mother AND father involved. All to protect time. I'll read up on it and list the character's various identities.; December 22, 2009 at 1:36 PM
MikeNY said...: Very nice articulation of the idea.

I'd add the speculation that Widmore killed them (well, at least Desmond intentionally) in order to ascend to leader of the Jacobians.; December 22, 2009 at 1:40 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Big, the story actually is creepier than I recalled. Unmarried Mother talks with Bartender. Tells the story of being intrasexual. Bartnder kidnaps the woman, takes her back in time. But at the very end of the story, we see the Bartender looking at a C-section scar, which means that he is his own mother, father, AND daughter, and that he had to kidnap himself and send him back in time to accomplish all of this.

So does Widmore willingly kidnap Des, Penny, and Charlie to set this in motion? (To be honest, I think he does not intend for this to happen, but, right or wrong, it still falls under the compass factor.)

Adding to what MikeNHY says, if Wid kills Des to care for himself as Charlie, does this figure into why Widmore was so adamant about Ben needing to kill Alex? The opposite of young Widmore recalling daddy Des was killed by another man?

There is one line I found in the zombie story, "You'll know who you are...and who I am." (Italics at the end.) Very Widmore-y talk, like when Wid tells Ben, "I know who you are, boy."; December 22, 2009 at 1:53 PM
Cameron said...: Wow very flattered to see this post.

I just think it seems to fit rather too closely together to be mere coincidence.

Perhaps this is in part why Widmore has such hostility towards Desmond, as he already knows Des's role in his own fate.

Yet at the same time, he knows he needs to keep the loop in tact to preserve his own time line.

Hence, why he appeared to Desmond (as did Eloise) at certain critical points in Desmond's life. Including holding the boat race that would be on a path to lead Des to the island. (using Libby along the way).

The only piece missing is why they would end up going back and why would it be to the 1940s.

There are a few unanswered questions for me that don't support this theory, such as the 'reset'. If the incident does create a reset where will this leave Desmond? Would he still have gone to the island despite? If there was no button to push what would be his fate?

I totally think Desmond has an important role to play in the final season along with Charles Widmore & baby Charlie.; December 22, 2009 at 2:12 PM
Cameron said...: Wow very flattered to see this post.

I just think it seems to fit rather too closely together to be mere coincidence.

Perhaps this is in part why Widmore has such hostility towards Desmond, as he already knows Des's role in his own fate.

Yet at the same time, he knows he needs to keep the loop in tact to preserve his own time line.

Hence, why he appeared to Desmond (as did Eloise) at certain critical points in Desmond's life. Including holding the boat race that would be on a path to lead Des to the island. (using Libby along the way).

The only piece missing is why they would end up going back and why would it be to the 1940s.

There are a few unanswered questions for me that don't support this theory, such as the 'reset'. If the incident does create a reset where will this leave Desmond? Would he still have gone to the island despite? If there was no button to push what would be his fate?

I totally think Desmond has an important role to play in the final season along with Charles Widmore & baby Charlie.; December 22, 2009 at 2:12 PM
3D said...: Wayne Allen Sallee said:

"Widmore, then, is the compass. Locke gives the compass to Richard who gives it to Locke 50 years later, the whole where did it originate thing."

It's similar, but it differs a little from the compass scenario because the compass actually travels back and forth between Richard and Locke over and over an infinite number of times, till it is actually older than everything in the universe. It also makes a shambles of the "whatever happened happened" thing because each of those iterations is slightly different, with the compass aging, rusting, breaking down, etc. (Eventually, one of those two guys is going to be holding an irretrievably rusted hunk of crap that used to be a compass, and either he won't pass it on to the other when he is supposed to, or he'll say something about it, and the loop will break.)

If this Widmore scenario were true then, unlike the compass, it would still just be a single linear life for him, he'd be born in the 2000s, travel back to the 1950s, grow up on the Island, and die at some as yet unspecified time in the future.

"Just to keep the rounding off of the numbers in the year, I'd think they end up in 1938 or even 1937. (Is it ever stated how old Widmore is in 1954?) Also, everyone goes by Jack's statement in the cave, and he is hardly CSI material. The one thing, though, is Jack mentioned fifty years in his guesstimate. And we've since seen that half a decade means something, maybe seventy years works just as well."

But there's no need for the writers to throw out a number for Jack to say, and have it be off by 20 years. Chances are, if they had him say 50, they meant it to really 50. Otherwise it just confuses the narrative. If they meant any confusion about it, they could have easily thrown in a throwaway line from Charlie or Hurley or someone. "Dude, how do you know? They could be from the 1800s."; December 22, 2009 at 2:21 PM
3D said...: One thing I was wondering about is, if this scenario comes to fruition, where did the name "Widmore" come from? Why wouldn't he just keep the name "Charles Hume"?

Also, one other thing that bothers me about this, is that Richard and the Others seem surprised by the concept of time travel when Locke pops up in their camp in 1954. But wouldn't they know all about it, if Charles was born in 2005 and came to the Island in the 1950s via time travel?; December 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I get what you are saying, 3D, I just mean we have been seeing 30 years and 50 years, so why not 70?

Re: Charles Hume. Why Danial Faraday? A lot of different names to throw us off, another example being Straum and Chang. (Certainly some names are by marriage, but there's more than a few.)

More telling, 1954 Widmore was wearing another man's identity when we first saw him. Past that, you got me.

I like the comparison with the compass, however many loops it makes, it will break down.

Looking fwd to seeing other comments from everyone. Oh, and if we take from the Heinlein story, I suppose Unmarried Mother is John Locke's mom and Bartender is...Tom? (From when he was with Arturo, this should give KoreAmBear a laugh.); December 22, 2009 at 2:56 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Oh, and 3D, I'd assume that Richard was confused by time travel as he represented the indigenous tribe, and we've always seen the Hostiles dressed in two styles of garb. That could be part of it.; December 22, 2009 at 2:59 PM
lostmio said...: So Widmore is his own grandfather? (Widmore-Penny-Charles W/H)
And Penny is her own grandmother?(Penny-Charles W/H-Penny)
And Desmond and Penny are Faraday's grandparents?
(Desmond/Penny-Charles W/H-Faraday)
So Hawkings is the mother of Faraday, who is the grandson of Desmond, who is the father of Hawkings' lover, who is both the father and son of Desmond's wife.

Why? What plot purpose would it serve?; December 22, 2009 at 9:17 PM
lostmio said...: Whoops,sorry if that sounds snarky. I'm not saying this theory is wrong, I'm just very very confused...; December 22, 2009 at 9:19 PM
lostmio said...: I'm thinking too, that if Charlie Hume = Charlie Widmore, then in addition to Adam&Eve, we had another huge clue in S1:
Boone's and Shannon's quasi-incestous spin in "Hearts and Minds".
ewww... I feel like I need to disinfect my keyboard.; December 22, 2009 at 9:30 PM
Thunderstorm said...: Re: Name changing...

Re-watching Season 5 over the last weekend, something dawned on me about Daniel and Eloise.

If Daniel's name is Daniel Hawking, then (according to post-Incident Ellie's concerns) what if Dan says his full name in 1954 in front of Richard, much less Charles or Ellie? Or probably any of them really. It might change everything.

Perhaps Ellie gave him a different last name so his destiny would have to take place. Otherwise, you'd have to think that Ellie (post-Incident) would figure that Richard would have known who Daniel was in 1977 (Hawking) because perhaps the cat was let out of the bag in 1954.

The other part of this is, the predestination paradox. Did she name him Faraday because of this^ or because he was already named Daniel Faraday when he died? Chicken or the egg?

Here's one way to solve that paradox. Ellie allowed Daniel to chose his own last name, after one of his science heroes. So that's the only origination for it. But the motivation for Ellie to want him to change it could because of what was said above.

I'm only going there because perhaps it would have something similar with Charles Hume/Widmore. I don't know. One idea I just had is that Desmond does something that pisses his son off. (daddy issues again) SO when Charles Hume is a young man, say a rebellious 12 or 13, he changes his name to his mother's maiden name. Because he understood his father to be a coward.; December 22, 2009 at 10:53 PM
Thunderstorm said...: To clarify that latter part:

Obviously in this scenario Des and Penny would likely be dead by a certain time (to be Adam and Eve)
and thus Charles would maybe be told that his father was a coward or something and took his mother's maiden name. I don't know...just typing.

Charles wouldn't want his father screwing his daughter now would he?
Ick...would they really go here?
I'm sure if they did, such talk about screwing would be left out of it. But it would be there...the ick factor and the "really? You have to be kidding me" factor.

I prefer 'Jacob is Aaron' personally, if we're going to start figuring out who the Lost kids might be. :); December 22, 2009 at 11:04 PM
Greg Tramel said...: interesting idea!, Dez and Penny are Widmore’s parents

reminds me of something I wondered about before, in the many worlds’ theories do specific people living in the various worlds always have the same family?

for example in FlashForward could Olivia and Lloyd be the biological parents of Dylan and Charlie in another world?

back to Lost, in one world could Charlie grow up to be Charlie Pace and another world baby Charlie grows up to be Charles Widmore?

maybe a Lost University student could ask one of the physicist professors; December 23, 2009 at 7:29 AM
Greg Tramel said...: do when know for sure Widmore is the biological father of Penny?

and for that matter do we know for sure Christian is Jack's biological father?

could be a really all out wackadoo that all the guys with daddy issues are actually their father’s father; December 23, 2009 at 7:50 AM
James Elliott said...: Like. But, is there anything to disprove Charlie Hume being Charlie Pace? This would be more poetic, if not dramatic (and not to mention less incestuous)....; December 23, 2009 at 8:38 AM
Anonymous said...: This is an interesting idea especially if Jack's grandfather Ray is really Jack as some have speculated.; December 23, 2009 at 9:23 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I know Big will agree, anyone who has read "---All You Zombies----" will see it as the ultimate ick factor. Just when you think the story can't get you any queasier, the bartender looks at his C-scar and its like Heinlein knew he was going to create the most sordid time travel story ever written.

lostmio, I agree on the idea of "Why?" as I do with so much right now, i.e., how the hell does this tie up in 18 hours? The point about Boone and Shannon is a good catch, it was mentioned in the previous post that B& S's backstory has supposedly changed. I'm almost ready to believe we see this like some old Mitchum film, Richard doing a 60 minute voice-over as everything gets explained in B&W, when it comes time for his -centric episode. "The sky was blue. The pirates wore black."

Thunderstorm, that is perfect thinking on why Dan had a different last name. What if it went down like this, though? Eloise has baby Dan already knowing his name is Faraday because of notes in the journal? How weird would that be, a mother giving her son a name he already had before he was born?

As with so much of LOST, we'll get one concrete answer and the rest will be fill in the blanks. If Jack had been stuck in 1977, he would age enough to be all grandfather-ly by 2008. Greg, the only real assumption re: Penny and Jack is that, from the beginning, they've had the same last names as their dads since the beginning. There was never a reveal, like with Faraday.; December 23, 2009 at 9:50 AM
neoloki said...: I don't believe a human being can be a ontological paradox. The strict definition is only objects and ideas fall under this category. The compass is an ontological paradox and, referring back to 3D's comment, if this is true they don't age.

Other than that observation, I am with Lostmio. Why? How does this serve the story?

It is a neat trick, but that is about as far as it goes for me.; December 23, 2009 at 11:13 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: neoloki, if anything, just as with the ALT reality talk, one small part will mean something and that's it. It's one of the things that intrigues me so much about the show, the phrases and asides that are used from the earliest episodes onward. When I mentioned Jack being not a CSI guy to just make a fast diagnosis of Adam & Eve being there 50 years ago, I meant the implication was that, as we now know, somebody was around 50 years ago, in the same area.

So whatever comes of this new idea of Charlie Hume/Widmore, it may just be a way of getting us to think about who the father of Jacob and MIB is.

By the way, I mentioned this at the tail end of the previous post. Any thoughts on if the red tapestry represents the ALT reality? So would deciphering it provide clues on what needed to be done to course-correct?; December 23, 2009 at 12:18 PM
Greg Tramel said...: off topic for this post but Taweret and trinities mentioned in this video

LOST SYMBOL OF RA; December 23, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Greg Tramel said...: Wayne, i don't think the red tapestry represents the alt reality

i like the idea that it tells MIB's (but not necessarily woven by MIB)story/philosophy as compared to Jacob's story tapestry

wouldn't Jack being Jack's grandfather out(Fox) the grandfather paradox, a feat unto itself; December 23, 2009 at 12:33 PM
neoloki said...: You know Wayne I react to idea's, aesthetics, my environment in a very intuitive way. I am a slow thinker and it takes time for me to circulate a concept or situation fully. So, any feeling I might have right know about Charlie/Widmore could change after enough reading or just plain time. However, something about the concept feels very clunky and inelegant. Like certain artists who come up with a clever idea or technique and the first time you see it you're taken aback by it's uniqueness and execution, but once you live with it for a while you realize it is all surface and no depth. I feel this way about the painter Chuck Close and 99% of political art.
Also, I already feel like there is enough interrelatedness in Lost,e.g., Miles, Faraday, Claire, Penny, etc, al. I really doubt the writer's will go down this road, but we will see.

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but the red tapestry does appear in The Incident. When Ben and Flocke first come into Jacob's chamber Ben goes to look at the eye of Horus tapestry and Flocke walks over and stands above the red tapestry. You can't see what is on it just that it is a tapestry with red and black stripes. Could be a clue just in the choice of what Ben looks at and what Flocke looks at.; December 23, 2009 at 12:45 PM
neoloki said...: Oh yeah, this would leave one to believe that Jacob did indeed weave the red tapestry.; December 23, 2009 at 12:46 PM
Greg Tramel said...: OH THANKS! Neoloki, my original question was where did we see the red tapestry and everybody said we have not seen it yet so i would agree, yes, Jacob wove it

i'm with you Chuck Close, impressive in their size but boring and depthless nonetheless; December 23, 2009 at 1:17 PM
neoloki said...: Thanks, Greg. I was watching The Incident last night, just bought the season, and I noticed Flocke was standing above something and looking sown at it. And there it was, the red tapestry. I had never noticed it before.; December 23, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Greg Tramel said...: that makes sense, i wondered why they were using the image to promote the Season 5 DVDs if we did not see it in S5, makes more sense now

looks like all the Lost University videos are being pulled off youtube so let us know if there is anything unique

i'm starting to look through the handouts posted online; December 23, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Maybe the red tapestry was only seen in HD or Blu-Ray? Oh well, its a thought.

neoloki, and Greg beat me to the punch(line) here, but I've started and erased a general comment twice today mostly because I can't get the wording right. But it goes with what Greg said, the in-joke about the grandfather pair o' docs.
We then see time travel conundrums.

Here's where I waffled and then erased. During S4, there was quite a bit of talk over the freighter people, surely Dan was Charlotte's protective brother and the like, or that Faraday had been on the Island as a young kid, too. Well, again, we didn't anticipate the time flashes, we did know Charlotte was on the Island pretty much from the start, and we also found that Miles could be on the Island both as a baby and as a thirty-year old. So we HAVE been led towards certain ways of thinking in regards to the time travel. I find the whole family tree thing confusing if only because of the remaining hours of the show. But there may be a way of looking at the Hume/Widmore line (if this is indeed a factor in S6) to hint at, at the very least, the origins of Jacob, MIB, and their parents. I like the idea Cameron presented, but I think that there is a certain part of this that might be seen in S6, again more by way of explanation, or implication, if you will.

I'm still sticking with my theory that all the loops represent S1-S5 happening countless times, ALT reality or not. So the Widmore/Hume conundrum is a variation on the other loops involving the compass and the two Miles, etc. And as much as I was against thinking Adam & Eve were Des & Penny, from the very beginning, I can say that throwing Rose & Bernard at us last season had me simply KNOWING that they were NOT A&E.

Question. Why was the red tapestry on the floor? Is that what Jacob's body will be wrapped in? Was MIB as Locke staring at it because he was surprised to see Jacob had planned that far ahead? And when Jacob then mentions that they are coming, could it possibly mean they as in those figures represented on the red tapestry are coming to beat you down?; December 23, 2009 at 7:52 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I guess the things I try to keep thinking about are the, well, constants in the show. Daddy issues. Science/faith. The all important "You can't tell me what to do!"; December 23, 2009 at 7:57 PM
neoloki said...: thank you wayne, and greg, for that well thought out and hard won explanation. It would definitely be an unique approach to explaining the daddy issues on the show. I wish I had more to add at this point, but in the end the concept is more interesting then viable.

I am not saying this as an insult, but Hume/Widmore is one step short of the polar bear on water skies jumping Edward James Sharkington.; December 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM
lostmio said...: I do like the idea that Des and Pen are Adam & Eve, though.
And young Charlie putting his deceased parents, together, in the cave has a nice solid feel. Like Jack said, someone cared enough for the two to place them there.

Imo, it really doesn't matter at this point whom/who is Adam and Eve. We now know that there's time travel involved, and that's enough for me.
But there's one thing that's always bugged me: why were the two bodies separated several feet, and not side-by-side? My usually-suppressed romantic streak says that two people who loved each other should have been lain side-by-side.

That the two bodies weren't side-by-side implies to me that they died and were interred at two different times. That, along with the fact that A&E were shown in House of the Rising Sun still imo point more toward Sun/Jin than anyone else. If there's a pool, I'm wagering Sun/Jin, in two different time frames.; December 23, 2009 at 8:36 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Sun & Jin, separated by time, closer in death. The way they were laid out is another mirror image, of sorts, and could be an odd burial custom.; December 24, 2009 at 10:36 AM
neoloki said...: I like that idea wayne. there is a certain elegance to it. also, Sun & Jin as Adam & Eve makes sense in retrospect to Jacob's comment at their wedding.; December 24, 2009 at 10:48 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Neoloki, I commented on the previous spoiler post, so you'll likely not see it. That's the kind of thing that pisses me off most, the anonymous (far as my memory goes) poster who runs around gleefully doing this. I read your comment and let my eyes glaze over, so I saw nothing at all. Almost. But I think its not one of those "oh, but we could see this coming" situations. It MIGHT be, once we have a few S6 episodes under our belt, but I'll bet that dude is 20 years old and spent all of Christmas Eve reposting every place he could find. And then going back to writing Transformers fanfiction.

Most people seem to still abide by the spoiler-y spoil, if its from DarkUFO's hangman game, well this isn't g-damn Wheel of Fortune-I want to solve the puzzle time. What, did that guy leave out three letters of the alphabet when he posted that?

Thx for taking the bullet, though. I hoped that someone would eventually send an "I'm out" notice, but then I also didn't expect such a douchy post.

And, yea, what Jacob said at the wedding adds new meaning to Jin & Sun's fate. I started watching S5 late last night as it was more me buying a present my nieces could then give to me. I might stop watching "Because You Left" and go back to the commentary today, but I do want to watch the extra with Nestor Carbonell discussing the last day of filming "The Incident."; December 25, 2009 at 9:53 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: NEOLOKI AND I HAVE SEEN A NEW COMMENT ON THE PREVIOUS POST RE: SPOILERS AND THIS IS A WARNING. This isn't Jack has a son material, this is more, hey, look at me (i.e, ME, Wayne), feeling like a total asshat for reading as much as I did. Neoloki is likely trying to hypnotize the info out of his head right now.

SO DO NOT READ THE SPOILER UNLESS YOU WISH TO. Just sayin.; December 25, 2009 at 9:58 AM
neoloki said...: HA HA HA

well that gave me a good laugh Wayne. I am using pure unadulterated denial to wash the info from my brain. You know lack of context, foilers, misinterpretation, kristin(sp.?), etc, al.

To put it into perspective though, it is a spoiler comment section. so if I wanted to stay away from that info I have to take due responsibility. Funny thing though is when I first scanned that spoiler on Darkufo I decided I did not want to read it in detail or know any more info about MIB from season 6 than I already do. I thought it would be safe if I read some comments over here in the spoiler section because rarely, if ever, does some one copy and paste info like that. They usually imbed it into an idea they want to flesh out. So when I saw that I was kind of pissed, at myself and the poster, but it was also kind of ironic, being as that was the first piece of information about season 6 that made me think I have read enough.

I haven't watched all the extra's yet on the season 5 DVD's, however, I did see the Nestor Day one. It was entertaining. My favorite of that type was the feature where they talk about the headache it is on all levels of production to implement time travel into a TV show. Also, enjoyed The Mysteries of the Universe. I was a huge fan of In Search Of... when I was a kid.

As to Sun & Jin: one of my favorite scenes in The Incident was when Jacob congratulated them on there union. Very beautiful scene.; December 25, 2009 at 10:21 AM
neoloki said...: you know wayne I have the utmost respect for someone who can use the word asshat in a non-offensive manner.; December 25, 2009 at 10:25 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Thx, neoloki. I guess one of the better writing disciplines is knowing when to step back. Though my comment about Transformers fanfic was certainly overly-snarky. Also, when I mentioned trying to comment on this family tree thing and quit until the third attempt, thats more me as a writer critiquing myself way too much. (Over the summer I flat-out tossed 97 pages of a novel and started from scratch.)

Yea, it is a spoiler post, but damn it all, it was like going from a 2 foot high jump to a six foot one. And, honestly, I'm vague on what I read, to the extent of where the info came from, because you took that bullet and I twisted my head away like Frankenstein. Its the anonymity that frosts me more than anything else. This is how it was in the summer, and I wonder if it isn't this SAME fellow, who really really tossed out some serious info, but after he blurted it out (and face it, some of these spoiler posts simply scream out "I'm blurting it out and then I'll go somewhere else and blurt it again!"), then he posted the damn link. Again, which was worse, reading the spoiler or seeing the link in the same paragraph? I'm old school, where the spoiler is whited out and you need to run your mouse over the section in question.

I am a night owl, and will be watching the DVDs around 2 in the morning, though I might just check out the timeflashes one as it is quite gloomy out and the atmosphere is right for it.; December 25, 2009 at 11:29 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Oh, and I pretty much call myself an asshat at least once a day. Seriously. Loud enough to make my dog question my sanity. As if he should still be questioning it at all.

Going back to something you said, one time I did get some info via my writing (not the Zombie Island thing) and I slipped it onto the blog here in just the way you speak, kind of a thinking out loud thing. Nothing verbatim. That's what I've always loved about EYE M SICK. Brain food. That really is why I dislike spoilers in general, its like empty calories. Sooner or later, as you've seen me here in the past month, a guy has gotta snack.; December 25, 2009 at 11:37 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Again, for everyone wanting to avoid the spoiler on the previous post, assume that it is Pat Sajak telling Vanna White to wave at the crowd before they go drink their brains out because they've been hosting the show for half of my life.; December 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM
neoloki said...: I feel the spoiler "pool" will have a shallow end of 6' and the deep end will be bottomless from here on out. One of the reasons I want to enforce a reasonable amount of discipline in my life and stay the fu*k away from them. Tough task though, being a creature of routines, and one of my favorite is having a cup of coffee in the morning and reading all the Lost info I can find.

I have been a painter since I was 16yrs old. My step-father made his life as a sculptor, painter and gambler. He lived in New york during the 40's and 50's and spent much of his time with the abstract expressionists. He was friends with Motherwell and Kliene. Anyway, he and a very important painting teacher (important to me) always reiterated not to make anything so precious that you can not destroy it and start over if it serves the bigger picture. I think this would hold true for just about any creative process. It takes balls to trash your writing after 97 pages or spending a week and hundreds of dollars worth of supplies on a painting. We learn though through the process and it only serves to further when taking a different path.
The idea is very Jacobian (sic), ...everything before that is only progress.; December 25, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I think its safe to say that one spends more on supplies as a painter. Time involved applies in both cases. I'm very lucky to have one of those careers that meanders a bit, but I'm still writing and selling almost 25 years now. You can likely understand the fine line of being critical and much too critical of one's own work. In the end, I suppose it is one of my tenets now. Only 1 novel, but stories in 175 anthologies and three collections. So I can die at any time, there's a nice feel to having continued writing as opposed to giving up because everything is on the Internet these days. I don't own a cell phone and all my photos are with disposable cameras. So there will be stories about me besides my writing. I might be getting maudlin, but two of my writer friends committed suicide this month.

My agent is still looking into if LOST will be novelized, season by season. I'd kill to write the book for S5. The last time something that cool fell into my lap was when I wrote "Elviscera" for THE KING IS DEAD. I knew more than a few fellow writers who were envious that I made it into a dead Elvis book.; December 25, 2009 at 1:14 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Oh, and while it is Jacobian in nature, with me its always been the "I want to be remembered by this and not that" and so I am often quite glad that I just didn't write my way out of a crappy situation. One of my favorite pieces is a Nightlife article in PENTHOUSE, on Polish taverns in my old neighborhood. And I'm in books like 100 CRAFTY CAT CRIMES and, ah, VAMPIRE DETECTIVES, with stories I like very much, and (feel free to use this yourself, neoloki), as Jackie Gleason once said, "A gig's a gig."

That's neat about your stepdad. I wish I was my age now only in the early 60s so I could be trying to kick out scripts for Twilight Zone and, better yet, Outer Limits. Of course, in the 1960s they didn't have the meds that let me creak around all day long.; December 25, 2009 at 1:23 PM
neoloki said...: You are very lucky to have filled your life doing what you love and what gives you life, if I can be so presumptuous. I have very little ambition and only show very rarely. I view myself as being perfectly happy as Bodidharma in his cave staring at the wall for 20 years. However, I have been able to sell from time to time. I paint because it keeps me sane, it is a fundamental part of who I am and because I love it.

100 CRAFTY CAT CRIMES!? Wow, I want that book (collection of stories?) just for the title. That is great.; December 25, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Thx, neoloki. My writing used to keep me sane. I'm past that now. I've always owned border collies, so I was out of loop trying to put a cat into a cop story. Just like with VD, the book titles are meaningless. A cat had to be in the story. MURDER FOR FATHER were stories that took place on Father's Day, the other a vampire and a detective. You can see how it would be easy to just write a lame story using the elements they expected. In the 90s, there were quite a few 100...anthologies. 100 Dastardly Detective Stories, 100 Vicious Vampire Stories, etc. There will always be vampire anthologies, a genre I pretty much despise. If MIB was a vampire, I'd be pissed.

You know what really sucks? If that spoiler was at Dark UFO like you mentioned. I dunno, its like play in your own sandbox, you know? If that poster lives over at DarkUFO, let him damn well stay there. Yes, spoiler post, our fault. Damn sneaky to post on a holiday when Big might not see it soon enough to quantify or modify it. From a writing viewpoint, you might get where I'm coming from better. The producers don't likely give a damn, but the way that guy posted makes him the guy who gives away the ending to a novella I spent three months writing to a complete stranger scanning the bookshelves who now will likely not buy the novella because the intrigue is gone. you can always email me at jonalgiers@aol.com or find me on Facebook under my name here. I worry that there might be more of these spoilers that will pop up here in ways they shouldn't, spolier-post or not.; December 25, 2009 at 5:33 PM
Capcom said...: Good ideas folks, but I'm even kind of staying vague on the specs as well, I don't even want to try to figure it out for fear of saying, "Duh, we knew that would happen." And yep, the spoiler over there caught me too. I guess now that Big has gotten the notoriety, there may be more of those types here for the duration. :o)

LOL Wayne, I usually call myself Dumbus Assicus on a daily basis, or Alexandra Dumbass (after, Dumas of course).

Wow, Neo, I would have liked to hear some of your step-father's NY stories. I've been told that too about not worrying about tossing a piece of work, or to be careful to think that something you did can't be done again, and better. Sometimes my inspiration is a one-off kind of thing that happens so fast and perfectly and almost without thought, I think that it might not be as inspired on the calculated repeat. But I mostly try to think of anything that I do as a protoype that maybe I can do better after the first one.

LOL I have certainly done the staring for 20 years thing...now I'm trying to get back in gear again. My early art life is similar to what you posted Neoloki. But I got more discouragement than encouragement when young unfortunately, so I became an IBMer instead of an artist for a long while.

I hope everyone here is having a nice Christmas and holidays. Very sorry about your friends though Wayne. :-(; December 25, 2009 at 7:26 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: By the way, I did look at the top line, its from that Kristen whoever, not DarkUFO, so I shouldn't dump on that site more than I usually do. Just setting the record straight re: that awful, awful spoiler. neleoki meantion the DarkUFO site and I realized I shouldn't have made that leap. Still in all, what is wrong with "Go to Kirsten whoever's site"? Unless...I'm in the Pearl and they no longer use the notebooks and the pneumatic tubes. Why is Paulo in the toilet for so long?

Maybe the producers want the sites to publish spoilers so that we can all be monitored like a big ubernet-Panopticon.; December 25, 2009 at 8:00 PM
Capcom said...: True. But I guess in all fairness, it was a spoiler post, and we were talking very freely about a few things. That doesn't change my feelings about how you described people who like to post around doing that tho Wayne, of which I agree, I'm just sayin'. :-); December 25, 2009 at 8:21 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Exactly, Capcom. Its just to come from some anonymous twerp. I feel bad for neoloki, as I still only know about 10% of what Mr. Blurty McBlurt posted. Same song I'm singing, but, Jesus, someone coming here to talk about something posted on that Kristen site is like, well, its like something a little less bad as a drive-by heckling. And, well, he didn't even open it up for discussion, as far as I saw.

No worries on my friends, Capcom, we all head west into the black.; December 25, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I sent a note to Greg on FB warning him, as well. Don't know if you saw my note, CC. And, between you, me, and Big, it makes me think of He Who Shall Not Be Named, ha ha.; December 25, 2009 at 10:23 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i think i read the comment somewhere else anyway if it was about somebody wanting to go home, but it wasn't any big deal to me since i'm not trying at all to be spoiler free; otherwise i would stay away from the spoiler posts & websites; December 25, 2009 at 10:42 PM
Greg Tramel said...: but like y'all said anom could have at least added their 2 cents instead of just posting verbatim what everybody that reads spoilers already saw; December 25, 2009 at 10:47 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i've been looking at some of the Lost University class notes, i don't think they are considered spoilers, right?

seems like there may be something to what notes are included such as: "A clock on earth compared to a clock in space always shows that the clock in space moves faster than the one on earth."; December 25, 2009 at 11:22 PM
neoloki said...: Greg, I haven't started the Lost University yet. Funny, I was really looking forward to it and other things have come up, so it is totally on the back burner.

Sorry, Wayne, I thought I mentioned the source of the spoiler being kristen from e online. The only website where I read spoilers is Darkufo. The site is nicely organized. As far as being spoiled for that particular information, I did such a quick scan that the whole thing is vague. I am not to upset about it.

You know I watch Lost so often that I am not to concerned about the initial shock value reaction and savoring those emotions. For me it is more about how the different pieces of Mythology fit together and form the grand image of the mosaic.; December 25, 2009 at 11:35 PM
Greg Tramel said...: yeah, i just see spoilers as more unsubstantial and often misdirected pieces to the puzzle which in no way for me begin to give a lucid image of the grand mosaic but which are still fun to ponder how they may fit into the overall mythology

they are full of misinformation, foilers and vague stuff out of context, also no telling how much of it will end up on the cutting room floor

that's just me and i COMPLETELY understand and respect those that don't want any spoilerish info

BTW, i don't have the blurays to do LU; i'm just reading the bits and pieces posted on the web; December 26, 2009 at 12:47 AM
Capcom said...: LOL Wayne, I was actually going to mention HWSNBN, and refrained, but you said it for me. X-D I actually saw it before everyone else did I think, but didn't bother to comment as I thought that it was mostly kind of ambiguous/redundant accept for the "wants to go somewhere" part.

I also don't really rely on shock value on first viewing, but for specific things like (this is NOT a spoiler, it's made up) "Claire is still alive and gets Aaron back from Kate and hands him over to MIB who sacrifices him to the alien gods inside the statue." The overall story and fit is more meaningful to me, but the point of the hiatus reveal of the 815 freckage still does confuse the heck out of me, because that was huge.

But like Wayne said, once you know the story, why bother to buy the product. Mostly it bugs me that it's disrespectful to TPTB for big spoilers to be revealed, but some of these things are items that TPTB give to "journalists" that they think won't impact the surprise. But one man's "nothing" reveal is another man's "oh crap", depending on what part of the story is your fave part.; December 26, 2009 at 9:09 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: What's funny is that I didn't know the end of the spoiler until Greg typed it here. But that's cool, because its like I'd rather hear it from someone I know and who adds context. I honestly read only a few words as neoloki's brevity stopped me cold. And certainly it could be messed up info. Yesterday my oldest niece brought up some odd stories she heard (for her) in her HS class, there's the remains of a HUGE underground Ford plant from WWII under much of this area, and I told her about military disinformation, get you to look at the small, obvious thing to miss the big, bad thing.

I recall someone saying Kristen Online! has gotten pretty loose with spoilers. Maybe they all just want web traffic (I mean, the TV-type bloggers). That makes a bit of sense, seeing as there has to be tons more traffic for LOST than say, anyone online talking about GREY'S ANATOMY.; December 26, 2009 at 9:37 AM
Bigmouth said...: Interesting...I'm a little surprised at the hostility to this notion. The way I see it, Widmore as his own grandpa has a few narrative virtues. For one thing, it explains Widmore's special connection to the Island. Not only is he a part of a time loop centered there, he's also the offspring of the one guy -- Desmond -- who's been exposed to the Island's exotic energy and survived. That may be why Widmore has those dreams he mentioned to Ben in their bedroom encounter.

It also casts earlier scenes between Widmore and Desmond in a whole new light. Charles comes off more sympathetically, as someone forced to do terrible things (i.e., be a jerk to his father) to ensure his own existence. As Cameron notes, this also explains why Widmore intervenes at critical points in Desmond's life,including sending him on the boat race. The one fact that doesn't fit is Widmore's warning to Desmond in S5 to stay in hiding with Penny. I'm not sure why Charles does this if he's aware that Des is his dad.

Also, the symbolism works on several different levels. Wayne is 100% correct that Widmore's existence is an ontological paradox like the compass. There seems to be some confusion on this point, so let me be clear. The idea of people being ontological paradoxes is a classic sci-fi trope, and "--All You Zombies--" is a highly influential time travel story. So much so that Dr. Michio Kaku devotes a whole section to it in one of his books. Here's a diagram from Hyperspace charting the various relationships.; December 26, 2009 at 2:42 PM
Bigmouth said...: Interesting...I'm a little surprised at the hostility to this notion. The way I see it, Widmore as his own grandpa has a few narrative virtues. For one thing, it explains Widmore's special connection to the Island. Not only is he a part of a time loop centered there, he's also the offspring of the one guy -- Desmond -- who's been exposed to the Island's exotic energy and survived. That may be why Widmore has those dreams he mentioned to Ben in their bedroom encounter.

It also casts earlier scenes between Widmore and Desmond in a whole new light. Charles comes off more sympathetically, as someone forced to do terrible things (i.e., be a jerk to his father) to ensure his own existence. As Cameron notes, this also explains why Widmore intervenes at critical points in Desmond's life,including sending him on the boat race. The one fact that doesn't fit is Widmore's warning to Desmond in S5 to stay in hiding with Penny. I'm not sure why Charles does this if he's aware that Des is his dad.

Also, the symbolism works on several different levels. Wayne is 100% correct that Widmore's existence is an ontological paradox like the compass. There seems to be some confusion on this point, so let me be clear. The idea of people being ontological paradoxes is a classic sci-fi trope, and "--All You Zombies--" is a highly influential time travel story. So much so that Dr. Michio Kaku devotes a whole section to it in one of his books. Here's a diagram from Hyperspace charting the various relationships.

Finally, just a word regarding spoilers. I think some of you are being just a tad melodramatic. The comment was made on a designated spoiler post. And the source was Kristin, whose "spoilers" are invariably either wrong or have already been reported by Dark UFO. I really wouldn't get too bent out of shape about this...; December 26, 2009 at 2:49 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Big, its true, starting to think this site is cliqueish, in a good sense. It was one of those things I mentioned long ago, a complete stranger dropping in and really offering nothing, bringing zip to the table. I'm cool with it being the spoiler post, maybe just too protective of the manner of that one post. Will we ever hear from the guy again? I hope we do, actually, just to have him join the discussion.

Re: Widmore. LOST is full of changing squares and circles (the record, the wheel) and the loops/loopholes. And, again my theory of the series simply being the most current attempt to fix things or whatever, onion peels, whereas the wheel is static, if I'm saying this right, the loops have been moving around like the woven tapestry. Am I making sense? the wheel, the well, the statue, they are always there, but the loopholes create variants. The ALT reality, perhaps. Ending this hideous paragraph, I mean that there is no reason the Widmore idea couldn't be another loophole, even with the few episodes there are left.

I think it makes sense that Widmore is Charlie Hume, but unless S6 lands on all cylinders for every single episode, it could be a confusing mess. I think a certain amount of people, i.e., the average viewer, gets the Faraday thing, because it was pretty much explained in the show. If we see this with Widmore and crew, the connection must be made clearly.

Plus, going with E and W being analogues for J and MIB, going by the spoiler about MIB wanting to g* h*me, well, Widmore would pretty much be doing the same by returning to the Island.; December 26, 2009 at 10:55 PM
Thunderstorm said...: Could we say that Widmore would eventually adopt his own mother, Penny and thus, Charles wouldn't be his blood-daughter's son, but his adopted-daughter's son? This should remove any incestuous overtones.

Also, could you not remove the paradox quite easily this way? And in doing both of these things, preserve the most interesting twist in all of this (IMO, at least) that Desmond would still be Charles Widmore's father?; December 26, 2009 at 11:51 PM
Thunderstorm said...: Wayne, what is the picture in your avatar?

When it's miniaturized it looks like something from Hellraiser with a gold chain around it's neck.

P.S.
Being an amateur musician myself, I have scrapped months of work to start over again. Once I started doing this, I actually gained more confidence in the material.

Also, I don't like vampires either.
Zombies, hell yes, vampires, not so much.; December 27, 2009 at 12:07 AM
WJames said...: Hey Wayne Allen Sallee, neoloki and others!
I am that rude asshole who decided to post "THAT INCREDIBLY HUGE SPOILER" that actually is almost not a spoiler at all. But just some crude hints about s6 from a source whose job is to give them away for promotion of tv shows.

If you classify saying that MiB is THE NEW BIG BAD in s6 as a spoiler than you have a serious case of spoilerophobia and when you write something as rude as you have about someone unknown as you did than you are nothing more than a condescending, egoistic asshole no matter if you are 40, 50 or 18. (i'm 33 by the way, from non english speaking area if you douchebags want to know, so that my english doesn't offend you, working in media, huge fan of lost, been reading this blog for a year and a half now - awesome job Big!)

BEWARE NOW, IN THE NEXT PART I WILL WRITE ABOUT INCREDIBLY HUGE SPOILER ABOUT S6 THAT IS ONLY ONE SENTANCE LONG!!!

Only thing that was slightly spoilerish in that post of mine was the bit about MiB wanting to go home.
That one is certainly very interesting as it poses many questions, like WHERE and WHAT the hell home is? Another reality, another planet, Tunisia, Australia or Portland?

Bye now, I probably won't post on this blog anymore. Funny thing is that i thought that posters on DarkUFO were rude 14 year old hormone pumped kids than I come here that assholes are not separated by any age, 14 or 44 if you are an asshole you will act like one.

p.s. Charles Widmore being Charlie Hume can work in some SF book but as messed up Lost is, it won't go that far. You can make a theory then, by saying that Charlie Hume is actually Charlie Pace.Don't think so.

Merry Christmas and all the best in 2010!; December 27, 2009 at 11:29 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Well, at least WJames posted again. If you are still coming back, join the discussion, please. Bigmouth covered it last night, I'm cool, we're cool, yes we did look at a spoiler post. And if you'd like to discuss the spoiler, I'd like your input. Seriously. Don't be a stranger and best in 2010 to you, as well.; December 27, 2009 at 12:40 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Thunderstorm, its an Outer Limits trading card from the 60s. The episode was "The Thing From Mercury." I always thought OL had the coolest alien costumes. I've just this one for awhile because I like the way it's framed.

Good thoughts on Widmore. If they end up on the Island in 1940 or so, I wonder about little Ellie. And if we are still thinking ALT reality, isn't there a slim chance that the Charles Widmore in 2008 would not even know he was little Charlie Hume in 2008? That goes back to Miles existing in two places at the same time without everything rupturing. Could an ALT reality mess with the Widmore family tree enough to have the loophole occur in a more subtle way?; December 27, 2009 at 12:50 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: One more thing, if WJames is still reading, no one would question your English. Honestly. It could also be that MIB could consider the Temple to be home, though I am intrigued that he might want to use that wheel (Tunisia), or at least he would be the one with the answers about why the wheel and the well are there to begin with.; December 27, 2009 at 12:57 PM
lostmio said...: Thunderstorm, Boone and Shannon weren't blood-related and still many of us were put off by the major ick factor of their sexual encounter (not to mention that it didn't contribute one whit to the plot). Just imho, an adoption storyline wouldn't fix the incestuous ick and would send us even further in to soap opera land.

Bigmouth, I'm sincerely sorry for any hostile overtones. I'm trying to keep an open mind on this theory, that's why I keep coming back to this thread.
On other threads and re other theories, I've initially protested or countered, then come around somewhat, altho I don't always say so.
So keep on keeping on, please.; December 27, 2009 at 1:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi all. I just found your blog.
It would be impossible for me to read all your fantastic posts in this blog before S6 starts.
I must say I read a lot of posts of yours, also checked a lot of other forums about lost theories...and so on.
First thing: Let me understand , please.
You're examinating if that guy's (Cameron) idea could work (if yes why/how and if not why)or you know something I don't know but I should know (being a lost fan)? Sorry for the stupid question...If you won't hate me for this one , I have few things to ask you, this is by far the best LOst-based blog I've ever seen. Best = you guys speak a great english (way above net's average) and your cultural level is clearly above standard. Sorry for being me the one lowering the blog's cultural level.
I hope to see a reply to this soon...thanks and bye.

signed: PR; December 27, 2009 at 1:11 PM
lostmio said...: A few posters have said that Jack might be his own grandfather Ray.

From 1977 to 2007 is only 30 years. That's not enough time to account for the difference in their ages.
Both Ray and Christian would have to had become fathers at age 15 or so. Presumably there are some men who become grandfathers at age 30, but surely not in the social/economic circle in which the mainland Shephards run.; December 27, 2009 at 3:01 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: lostmio, if Jack was stuck in 1977 onward, say he was 30 in his present (as Faraday would say), that would make him 60 in 2007. The only oddity about Ray is that he was never referenced before that episode he was in, he wasn't seen at Christian's funeral. I think the in joke was grandfather pair o' docs. Its likely that Ray was not mentioned earlier simply because the writers hadn't thought that far ahead, and then were able to make the scene with the shoes that much more mysterious.

The ick factor in the Heinlein story ramps up the ick part more than Shannon & Boone, etc. I'm on the fence w/ the Widmore thing, but I'm a sucker for loopholes, so I'll see hoe each S6 episode plays out.

PR: This has ALWAYS been the premiere blog re: LOST. The thing that hooked me long ago was the links Bigmouth used for previous posts. I eventually read everything from 2004 on (worked at a printing plant and printed quite a bit to read on the bus home), but prior to that, I could link back to an entry for a month or a year back. Re: the recent posts, check back to The Three Swans, and the entries Bigmouth mentioned to Jeff Jensen on EW.com.

Stay anonymous if you feel the need, but do join in, I know I'm far from alone in saying this.; December 27, 2009 at 4:39 PM
Capcom said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; December 27, 2009 at 5:20 PM
Capcom said...: Right Lostmio, to me the Boone/Shannon thing was as creepy as the Woody Allen marrying his stepdaughter thing. :-p But I think that I was being too prudish, they really hardly knew each other right? So they met as near-adults and then crazy things happened between them and all. It's just that TPTB led us to believe that they were related and...then it became a backwards Luke and Leia scenario.

As for the Shephard's socio/economical level, if Cs's dad was as much of an international two-timing skunk as CS was, just about anything's possible I guess, haha.; December 27, 2009 at 5:23 PM
lostmio said...: Wayne, Jack's almost certainly older than 30.
The one concrete reference we have for Jack's age is the episode in which Christian mentioned watching Carol Burnett. That show ran from 1967 to 1978, and Jack appeared to be at least 10 years old in the episode.
So the latest he would have been born would be 1968, making him 36 when 815 crashed, and 39-40 when he went back to 1977.
I actually like the notion that Ray is Jack, if only the math worked. But it doesn't.; December 27, 2009 at 6:15 PM
lostmio said...: Re Ray and Jack as grandfather pair o' docs - as much as I like it, I don't recall any mention of Ray being a doctor.

Actually the only pointer to him being Jack's paternal, rather than maternal, grandfather is that it wouldn't make any sense at all for Margo to give Christian's stuff to Ray, if he were her father.

We do have another non-televised reference to Christian's dad: the mobisode about the watch, in which Christian said his dad gave it to him but that his dad was so against his marrying Margo that he (Christian) never wore it. The mobisodes are canon.
The significance imo is that the watch went from Ray to Christian to Jack, and then to Aaron by proxy in that Jack gave it to Hurley, to time Claire's premature contractions. So imo the watch symoblizes a Shephard dynasty, perhaps with some longstanding connection to the island.

omg, maybe I just solved the puzzle of the puzzle re the importance of
Dark's spoiler, that I called a yawner in the spoiler discussion.; December 27, 2009 at 6:27 PM
lostmio said...: I said The significance imo is that the watch went from Ray to Christian to Jack, and then to Aaron by proxy in that Jack gave it to Hurley, to time Claire's premature contractions.

If Ray *were* Jack, then there's stuff there for ontological paradox theorizing, right?; December 27, 2009 at 7:02 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: lostmio, I get it now. I thought you were going by Ray being too old, not too young. I never watched every single webisode, so there's that. I dunno, even if it wasn't said what Ray did, I still think the in joke works, even if you stretch it to Ray, then Christian and Jack.

And if Jack is older than 30, I did forget about Carol Burnett, then he's really damn messed up calling Locke an old man. Maybe he sees Christian's stubbornness in Locke and calls him an old man because he can't talk to dead dad.

Good luck on your watch quest, whatever that might be. If you win candy, you have to share with the class. :); December 27, 2009 at 7:05 PM
lostmio said...: Capcom, right, backwards Luke Leia, exactly. lol.. if they'd only shown the sex scene before revealing the step-sibling thing, that would have made all the difference.; December 27, 2009 at 7:08 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: And yes, ontological paradox, but only if Hurley eventually gave the watch back to Jack. I might be wrong, someone can correct me. I might have mentioned this ages ago, but the watch made me think of the wheel and the compass and the skipping record. The wheel skipped because Ben turned it the wrong way. Maybe.; December 27, 2009 at 7:09 PM
lostmio said...: Wayne, when did Jack call Locke an old man? I missed that..; December 27, 2009 at 7:09 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Anyone ever how the Others keep their numbers going over all those years? Just sayin. Everyone makes incest jokes when I say my family is from Louisville KY, and of course its wrong, but if LOST rolls with it (quoting Frank Lapidus), I'll go along with it. I have to.; December 27, 2009 at 7:12 PM
lostmio said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; December 27, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: From his hospital bed, right before Locke mentioned seeing Christian. He called him an old man with delusions. I want to say that sometime in S3 or S4 the 'old man' reference was made, as well, which made me laugh, the way someone is labeled 'old man' (not counting Bernard) just because he is the oldest man in the group.

Again, though, I wonder if Locke's stubbornness reflected that of Christian's, in Jack's head.; December 27, 2009 at 7:15 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Maybe MIB will be wearing it, ha ha. But for it to be that paradox, Jack would need it back. The object needs to complete a loop starting and ending with the same person, in this case, Jack.

how come you're not solving your puzzle yet? I want some candy, lostmio.; December 27, 2009 at 7:18 PM
lostmio said...: Wayne, yeah, the last 10 minutes or so, I've been pondering the connection between Locke and Christian, in Jack's mind. Can't believe I missed that. Christian for sure was closer to Locke than Jack on the empirical scale, and that's something Jack would have subliminally picked up on.

Oddly, we never saw that watch again after Jack gave it to Hurley.

The last we time we saw it, Hurley was lying on the beach, holding it, right after the 815 beach boom thing. It was a close-up, extended shot - emphasizing Hurley and the watch. I didn't think much of it back then but when the watch was featured so prominently in that mobisode - it was even titled The Watch - I went "what ever happened to that damned watch?"
Jack did wear a watch on the island, in later scenes, but it wasn't that one.; December 27, 2009 at 7:24 PM
lostmio said...: sorry for the repetitve watch posts, I'm going to delete one of them; December 27, 2009 at 7:27 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: There are still a few mysteries, lostmio. Annie, for one. I would not be surprised if we see the watch again in S6 if it was in a mobisode. Weren't most of those of some importance, even the one with Hurley & Frogurt, as an intro to the latter?

Going back to White Rabbit, when Locke saves Jack and they have their talk, you can see how Jack distances himself from Locke bit by bit, though I think Boone's death might have sped that up. Again, though, the fact that he couldn't save Boone could have reflected on Christian berating Jack in the flashbacks. Even if its not a real "point" of the show, I think it mattered that Jack and Locke pretty much met the same day Jack was seeing his dad in the sneakers. John Terry is a wonderful actor.; December 27, 2009 at 8:57 PM
pr649 said...: hi all, I'm PR , I don't know why you want people not to be anonymous but I sure, guys, respect you enough to not ask you why is that so important. Moving on, thanks Wayne for the reply and to be honest is exactly the black swan theory blog page I found by chance that "sucked me in" (the omega point and the other links). It goes beyond Lost, it's just an interesting topic in itself.Anyway as someone probably wrote before me and - if nobody did - then in my opinion everything outside the "official" version of Lost (meaning the tv version) is, just an additional info (same for the videogames and all the Valenzetti and Hanso story) with maybe some relevance but nothing more than that. I think they're (the mobisodes) more like dead ends or deleted scenes commercially exploitable. They may come in S6, but with an exhaustive explanation for tv viewers to catch up to those who saw the mobisodes. I would also like to remember you as complicated as it may be, Lost is not Twin Peaks and most of all there's no Lynch involved, that would lead to the conclusion (as confirmed by authors: all questions will be answered; of course only the relevant ones as we all know) we might be in the conditions to understand what we are seeing. That's why I think everything must be simplified at one point in order to make perfect sense. I just realized my post is pretty useless, but I feel bad deleting - another - post just because it doesn't make much sense. I actually would dive myself into this fantastic topic with no more premises... All this Widmore's family circle sounds cool and makes quite sense even though I am not sure we'll see anyone being anyone's grandfather :) and I really want to ask you a lot of questions about this and something else about Lost.
Thanks guys for this fantastic blog, later I'll post some questions I have for you.
I hope I am not being OFF TOPIC, in that case, feel free to say and I'll stop.

Thanks , bye.

PR

p.s. posted without re-reading it.; December 28, 2009 at 1:04 AM
neoloki said...: I think hostile might be a bit of an exaggeration as to my feeling's about Hume/Widmore. In what is already going to a dense season 6 I just don't see them making time to explain this. I also, don't think it is necessary. They have their hands full as it is. However, the reference to -all you zombies- does seem fitting in that Darlton have been wanting to do a zombie season. At least they reference it as a joke in their podcasts.

I have only read definitions for Ontological Paradox as being a piece of information or an object, but looking at the wiki page they do use -all you zombies- as an example, although they couple it with a pedestrian paradox also. I am just wondering if the organic nature of humans is what would make being an ontological paradox, umm... difficult.

Wayne, your response to the poster of the spoiler, on the spoiler page by the way, which I was trying to avoid and thought it safe to check this spoiler section, was nothing but gentlemanly given his defensiveness. It wasn't a big deal and now we can bury it alive on Boone Hill.; December 28, 2009 at 2:17 AM
Anonymous said...: controllo / PR, welcome!
The mobisodes were initially created as a commercial venture, true - for Verizon, if memory serves. However, they were placed on the ABC site in short order and pronounced canon by Darlton.
They were scripted and filmed, were not deleted scenes.

Imo, only a couple provided spec-worthy info: the mention of Jack's gf in The Watch and "And So It Begins" which revealed that ghost-zombie-whatever Christian was active on the island before Jack awoke in the bamboo grove, and commented that Jack "has work to do".; December 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM
Capcom said...: Yes, PR, most of all there's no Lynch involved. **tiny yay!** I did very much enjoy Twin Peaks for most of it's run but...

PR, Big doesn't mind anonymous posts, it's just that sometimes he answers the comments and if there are a bunch of Anons, it makes it difficult to addresss specific comments.

I didn't see the arguments against the idea as hostility either, just a different opinion. It would be neat if baby Charlie turned out to be someone, but TPTB have a habit of using names multiple times, so I'm waiting on the reason for that one, albeit waiting expectantly, heheh.

If CS is MIB talking to Vincent about how much Jack has to do, he really was planning ahead! If it was to trap Locke into a specific path, their arguing and differences of opinion certainly can come into play there, for sure.; December 28, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: PR aka Controllo, that's another thing about EYE M SICK that I forgot to mention besides the links. The topics are well thought out by Big, the Omega Point being a fine example.

I was pissed--as I tend to be about such things--when the mobisodes were only available to a certain group of peopler, but, just as they can now be found on the ABC site, I've watched a few other gimmicky things on Hulu rather than the TV sites, mostly from The Office. (Enouigh non-Lost talk, but you should also check out Big's blog I HATE MY DVR. FLASHFWD, FRINGE, the Thursday Night line-up, also fun stuff.)

Once I saw the CS/Vincent webisode, it got me wondering if he sent Vincent to get Locke to bond with Walt. If you recall, John carved a dog whistle for Walt to find his dog. But I never got how CS communicated with Vincent.

controllo, we've discussed before how almost everything that is non-canon has at least a kernal or a directional marker for us. At the very least, the Valenzetti equation led up to Faraday talking about those from 1977 as variables.
The ARG Find 815 introduced the fake crash site in the Sunda Trench.I've mellowed out over the years so that I do look for the tiny detail that might not be part of the big game, rather part of the coming episodes.

And to follow your lead just this once, I'm posting w/o proofing. :); December 28, 2009 at 10:58 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: neoloki, I can somewhat understand WJames's outburst, though I wish he'd gotten the point that, even on the spoiler post, its expected to add your own thoughts, and I'd still like to have him join the discussion again.

Again, that is what elevates this blog, discussion at length. Though I certainly understand the readers who do not post because they feel like a fish out of water. It happened with me when Big did a post on LOST as post-modernism. I had to wait for days of comments before I felt ready to add my own thoughts.; December 28, 2009 at 11:04 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: lostmio, I did a quick flip at the previous post on spoilers, and Ilike your connection re: the tunnel to Hydra. Weird that Ben had a big office there, hadn't really noticed until Cesar was riffling through things. Plus there was Room 23 and even the runway. Ben even had a throwaway line about Juliet and her dolphins.

They didn't have time for it, but I'd have loved to have seen Hydra circa 1977, unless that station was built last. Maybe this is what broke the Truce, using the underground tunnel to get to Hydra.; December 28, 2009 at 12:11 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i'm still reading through all the comments but as far as as the math working out remember that there is a 40(or so) year old Jack in 1977 so in 2009 that Jack would be 72; December 28, 2009 at 12:34 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i guess once you throw time travel and multiverses into the mix mathematics sorta takes a back seat to reality but at the same time mathematics is used to prove the time travel and and existence of mutliverses so it ends ups being a viscous circle

Charles being Des's son is not that far fetched, in some reincarnation notions souls are always reincarnated with the same souls around them so in one reincarnation realm (let's call it Valhalla) Des is Charles’ daughter’s husband and in other reincarnation realm (let's call it Underworld or Island) Charles is Des’ son; December 28, 2009 at 12:50 PM
Greg Tramel said...: according to Lostpedia (for what it's worth) the mobisodes are considered cannon along with information from the Lost Experience (such as the Valenzetti Equation)

but it doesn't really matter since for me all of the supplemental materials are valid angles for exploring Lost themes even though there are limited angles usable to escape the island, lost

Lostpedia:Canon

good point! WJames and Wayne, where is home?

guys, where are we?; December 28, 2009 at 1:26 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Greg, I hadn't gone back to the spoiler post but I did today and saw the continued dialogue on Jack's supposed son. I kinda skipped by that all along, I like me my surprises.

Jacob's Well is on the other side of what is blocking the entire wheel on that sonar print.I think. If that is the case--Locke turning it one way from the well, Ben turning it the opposite way beneath the Orchid--, what if someone were to go to, say, where John was and turn the wheel the other way. Would Tunisia still be the exit point? I kinda just want to ponder the real need for the wheel and what it is than the spoiler about MIB. Greg, I'd even be happy to discuss this on the spoiler post if you want.; December 28, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Greg Tramel said...: your guess is as good as mine as how the wheel got there and what it is exactally and what happens when it is turned the other way

maybe Tesla spent some time on the island and built the wheel along with the sonar fence and the Orchid time travel chamber

maybe Tesla built the plasma heating towers on island and sent them to Somalia via the frozen donkey wheel to Tunisia

i see the wheel (in additon to being a Dharmacakra) as a wormhole stargate device built by early island settlers but i may be a bit biased since lately i've been a little too obsessed with all those blackhole spirals appearing all over the place

some people think that the looting of Iraq was also about getting hold of stargate devices; December 28, 2009 at 3:49 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I would agree on the earliest of the indigenous tribe building the wheel, with the holes in the spokes used for the boars pulling them along from below. Or another type of animal that died off. Maybe the well was filled in after people like the Black Rockers started nosing around. Tesla cloned himself and the clone pushed Frank Olsen out of that hotel window in 1954 during MK-ULTRA. And the stargates are in Iceland. Or so the voices tell me.; December 28, 2009 at 10:38 PM
pr649 said...: Sorry for the nick change (again). I am still PR aka controllo, lol, I feel so stupid now.
I didn't say they were not CANON; with my post I just meant that for one that's not a huge fan or just one that didn't buy the videogame, I found hard to believe he will be destined to not fully understand what's going on (yeah, right...what's going on?). To explain myself a line from Faraday (for example) or whoever may come to your mind saying : "numbers[...], Valenzetti equation[...]"would be enough for the tv viewer to understand those number have a story. Then a fan could probably know more, but I don't think tv audience would be put in a position to not understand LOST just because they didn't watch some commercial bonus or because they didn't buy the blu-ray version, that was (and is) my point. Greg Tramel explained it way better than me and with less words.
I feel so stupid, again.; December 29, 2009 at 12:56 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Ex-Controllo, Greg did explain it good, and this is why I used the phrase about me mellowing out. At the time LOST started, well, even until 2007, I had dial-up, I can't use a cell phone, and so things like the mobisodes annoyed me, because I knew it wasn't just me that was being excluded. Once I got DSL I caught up a bit, but that still left fans like my auntie Ceil and such, who will never own a computer or play a video game, to now feel terribly confused. I actually found Greg's link to Lostpedia helpful, too, I skirt around that blog at random. Oh, and until I got DSL, I could never hear podcasts.

So my only gripe about the way the show's info is parceled out, other than whatever is in the ARGs ands such is still reflected in the show, you know, no fill in the blank stuff for the average viewer, is that they are going for the proper demographic with this stuff, yet they must know a certain percentage will not know of The Lost Experience. Again, I've mellowed out, but I can easily see others shows follow LOST with the interactiveness.

That said, I'm glad the Sri Lanka video is canon, but the Rachel Blake hoo-hah is not. Keep coming back, pr649.; December 29, 2009 at 7:47 AM
Greg Tramel said...: actually, USA Today sums it nicely

"Lost was designed to create and encourage passion just when advertisers became willing to reward passionate viewing. And that passion has been amplified by the decade's booming commercial arena: the Internet, which enabled fans to focus (some would say obsessively) on the show's myths and feints and allowed the writers (some would say obsessively) to plant ever more clues for those fans to find. It has created a community unlike any other — and it's one of the reasons Lost will be one of those series people cherish and remember for decades to come."
The decade in television: Cable, the Internet become players

but at the same the time it can be enjoyed by those just wanting to watch it every Wed night (or whatever night it is going to be on this season, i forget)due to the excellent character development and compelling storytelling; December 29, 2009 at 9:34 AM
Capcom said...: I don't have the kind of cell that could get the Mobisodes either, but there were enough people posting them online (e.g. Dark and Dennis) and also on Youtube so that I could get to see them fairly quickly, so I didn't mind much that I was left out for that. There are a lot of aspects of being left out about the extracuricular activites that TPTB have put out for us during hiatus activities unfortunately, oh well.

Now the Bluray thing on the other hand, does rather tick me off. I can't afford all that junk right now. But I know that a lot of fans are purchasing their first Bluray specifically to get the LU and other exclusive DVD features, so there ya go, the marketing trick worked well for increasing sales of that format. Bah-humbug.

Heheh, Greg, when I saw those towers I thought, "They built a gigantic sonic fence!" You said, "...some people think that the looting of Iraq was also about getting hold of stargate devices." Seriously??? I could get into that. :-D

I'm VERY thankful that the Rachel Blake thing is not show-canon, because I would hate for her to show up on the island, haha.

Yes PR, keep posting! :-); December 29, 2009 at 10:10 AM
Capcom said...: Thanks for that link Greg. Jeep released an interesting marketing study of their involvement with TLE (which was extensive) after the ARG was over and they put it online for fans to see, in the format of one of the Compass sites that were made for the Jeep part of the game. They broke down the areas of the game that gave them exposure, quoted fans comments that had been made during the ARG about Jeep's involvement, estimated sales results as those kinds of metrics do, and it was very interesting.

IMNSHO, Chris Carter totally missed the boat on this kind of interaction with the second X-Files movie. Only Usenet was available when the Files was first on TV, so there wasn't anything more than forum platforms for that show, but lending it to be one of the very first shows (if not the first) to be discussed online as it aired. But he could have played catchup with the second movie at least by utilizing the net like Cloverfield did, but he didn't. Also IMNSHO, perhaps Carter has lost his mojo, as the movie didn't really have all that much pizzazz to get psyched up about online anyway. (ducking tomatoes now!)

:o); December 29, 2009 at 10:23 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i don't have a cell phone or a bluray player (i hate tech like Jacob, jk of course, i couldn’t live without a internet connected PC) but YES, i'm a little peeved about the Lost University stuff especially since any time the lecture videos get posted on youtube they get taken down at Disney's (or Buena Vista or whatever other companies are part of the monopoly) request

i think some will disagree with what Lostpedia lists as cannon but like i said i don't think it matters in the end and the show can still be enjoyed without all the extras, if i watch a movie on DVD that i really enjoy i'll often watch the director’s commentary but it's not essential to enjoying the movie; December 29, 2009 at 10:35 AM
neoloki said...: Capcom

To be sort of fair, it would be impossible to have Lost U. on the DVD's. The technology is just not equal and the interactivity is a necessary function for Lost U. to be successful. To address the "sort of" aspect, they could have set this up online for everyone to participate. I agree with the marketing however, as Blu-Ray is really an amazing format. I bought a PS3 a couple of years ago, but it hasn't been until the spring of this year I have really been able to experience it in it's full glory. i now have a hard time watching regular DVD's. Lost on this medium is fantastic and is worth the promotional campaign of Lost U. to further it's qualities.

Wayne

Your argument about the peripherals of Lost is exactly why Darlton have stated numerous times the only "true" canon is the show itself and they don't want people to have to search beyond the show for answers to viewer questions or mysteries.; December 29, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Greg Tramel said...: actually i guess i need to duck tomatoes as well because i thought ALL the X-Files movies really sucked in comparisons to the show, wow! just think of the fun we could have had in deconstructing X-Files if blogs had been around, i pretty much skipped Usenet, Jughead , Veronica and all those other Archie thingys; December 29, 2009 at 10:44 AM
Greg Tramel said...: yeah i agree Neology that the full Lost University can't be done on DVD but you would think they would at least let the lecture videos posted online slide, I know I know, copyright issues

but yes, Bluray does have some enticing interactive features and if my library ever starts buying blurays i will get one (or maybe before), i'm not much of a gamer so i don't have a PS3 but i do occasionally drag my daughters old Nintendo 64 to play with; December 29, 2009 at 10:53 AM
Capcom said...: Well you're right about that for sure, Neoloki. And even though I've signed up online for LU, I haven't had the time to go through any of the courses that might be available there, so I can't fairly critique them yet as being lesser material. I just wished that more would have been online for all, rather than exclusively on hightech. But like I said, I have yet to try it out online, there may actually be just enough there to keep me amused, without having to spend even more time in front of the TV or PC then I already do too much for Lost. But the superduper DI-Kit is just for Bluray only as well.

Yes, I see the extras, ARGs, etc., as like reading a book with or without the footnotes or appendixes. You can get just as much out of the book's main text without that, but reading the extra parts if you choose to, can add dimensions to your knowledge of the overall content. Just like TPTB have explained it.; December 29, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Capcom said...: LOL Greg. I really liked the first movie, I thought that it carried the main mythology pretty well, and was larger than life visually. I didn't much like the quick wrap-up of the ending though (how DID they get back from the arctic anyway?!), but what the hay. The soundtrack was enjoyable strong Mark Snow material as well. But I didn't even notice the soundtrack during the second movie. Not that I'd want to by a CD that reminded me of child molestation anyway, ew.

But yes, if only back then....there was a brief neat Lone Gunman website, until they got killed off. :-p And Fox attempted to construct a platform for the Files online at the end, but who still cared by the time the confusing Super Soldiers came around? Not me so much.; December 29, 2009 at 11:06 AM
Greg Tramel said...: of course that should have been Neoloki instead of Neology, i'm the world's worst typist

Capcom, there not much of anything to Lost U without the bluray discs, I did find some class notes posted online at DarkUFO i mainly just wish i was able watch some of the lectures rather than partake of the interactive features such as doing homework and taking the tests

Neoloki, can you ask the professors questions?; December 29, 2009 at 11:08 AM
neoloki said...: You know considering I spend WAY too much time talking about Lost, the fact that I still haven't participated in Lost U. baffles me. Maybe I am getting a little burnt on Lost? Nah. I will get to it this week.
To answer your question, NO. I do think they are setting up special events where some of the professors will be available for discussion, but don't quote me on that.

By the way, I kinda like Neology! It is almost a religion. The name is from my cat, Loki. Who I am convinced is the King of the Felines. So, a religion dedicated to his magnificence would make sense. Especially, to him. lol; December 29, 2009 at 11:15 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i just noticed Neology is what shows up for spellcheck for Neoloki so that's what it was

i've always just thought it was a mashup of the matrix Neo and the god Loki; December 29, 2009 at 11:20 AM
neoloki said...: No Matrix. My cat is the original trickster god and I am his disciple, thus new. ha ha; December 29, 2009 at 11:24 AM
Squish said...: hawking didnt wear an oroborus. it didnt swallow its tail...hence, and end to the time loop.; December 29, 2009 at 11:36 AM
pr649 said...: I'd like to say that I tried a couple of times to post my thoughts about this topic , I mean Widmore family, but I ended up deleting what I wrote. Even if I like to read your theories and opinions I feel like developing a theory it's actually a waste of energies, not because I don't like the challenge to see if my theory is flawless according to what we know about the (let's call it to be short) Lost Universe, but because I know the authors' efforts are not in the direction of creating a (technically) perfect story, but the most intriguing story they can (without screwing anything they made and/or said before, I would add).

I read in one of the linked blogs , this one to be precise : http://lostislandtime.blogspot.com : "IT'S ALL ABOUT 2 GUYS WE NEVER SAW BEFORE" and I add, they could come with anything at any point.

I would like to believe I've watched 5 seasons (many times of course) (and bonuses)for a reason. I like Lost, I always will, but from what we have now it could be purgatory, never happened, a dream, a collective dream/allucination in the mental institution,,a some Gods' chess game (play again?) or other board game, a loop (ending/beginning maybe with jack we know where), etc. etc. (to be clear I am naming just the first 2 or 3 random endings coming to my mind) and they (the authors) could figure out a way to make it believable as "we have known since day 1". And at this point I don't know if I should be happy, relieved or resigned about that. Well, and the one Lost ending I fear the most and I really DO NOT want to see is two kids remaining starting a new world from scratch or something in that way , that is the most exploited, less original idea a writer can come out with these days.; December 29, 2009 at 12:05 PM
Capcom said...: That has been a small area of discussion Squish, good point. Could be that the costume department was only able to come up with one that didn't bite it's tail, but I'd like to think that somewhere out in the world of fairytale-goddess jewelry in hippieland, that they could rummage up a connected one if they needed it for the story. So it might mean something that it's open.

That "two guys" idea cracked me up when I first read it, PR, they sure had a point there. So far the show hasn't been too redundant idea-wise, so I'm hopeful that TPTB will arrive at something fairly original for us. Sure, they've borrowed pieces of other ideas to weave into something entirely else, but up to now they've done it with an offbeat flair that makes it all seem very new. One could argue that for almost every Lostie there's been the typical Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey thing, like Star Wars did, but it's a lot more twisty than the average vanilla tale of quests IMO. TPTB must feel under a great deal of pressure to be able to win our approval for the end game here.; December 29, 2009 at 2:58 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: YOU ALL EVERYBODY!!!! You forget that you are saying that you can find what you need online. Again, I counter that there are many older viewers that do not even own a computer. I can name five that I know. That is one of my points re: the extra stuff. I saw the mobisodes online, as well. But my 79 year old Auntie Cel didn't. Just sayin, its easy to say, oh, everything eventually goes on the Internet.

On the other hand, I have the DI S5 DVDs and there have been people asking me to describe the Orientation video because I have a VCR and they do not. Ha!

And, sure, the Blu-Ray thing. Don't forget, they did the same thing in S3 with the then-new HD technology. If you had HD, you could see certain things in the background.

I suppose I can accept this way to continue to show our country's gluttony for new things (and we all know it is true for a HUGE part of the population), because the other way is like on HEROES, where we are force fed corporate images like Facebook and big name restaurants and the like. I've read that the opening ep of the season, there were 23 product placements on HEROES. End of old guy rant.; December 29, 2009 at 4:48 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: pr649, if you read up at the beginning of the post, I, too, wrote then deleted several versions of the eventual post I made (the one referencing Faraday, Charlotte, et. al.). Note: I pretty much suck at punctuation.Don't apologize for such a thing, I write for a living and neoloki and Capcom are into art, and there are times that I know it is time to write and others when I know, somewhere in my head, that its not worth it, same with the comments here.

The talk of the Widmore/Hume thing, even the ALT reality stuff, worries me that too much to the point of confusion will comprise much of S6. S5 had many, many strong episodes, and if S6 can do the same, I will be satisfied. I always talk about writing an ending to one of my stories as bringing a plane in on a tight runway. My hope is that the last episode will be that way, a journey of six years, and then the plane either lands or crashes, either being a good thing. I don't think we'll see Patrick Duffy in the shower.; December 29, 2009 at 4:57 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: One. last. thing. In one episode of THE LONE GUNMEN, there was a plot involving flying a commercial jet into the World Trade Center. That is one thing that just stays in my head, that Chicago has the tallest building in the US since 9/11. I suppose you have to live here to just feel the ghosts.; December 29, 2009 at 5:00 PM
pr649 said...: Capcom, I can easily say I agree with you 100%.

I am definitely a Happy Customer :)

Maybe my post sounded negative, in that case I apologize, because that wasn't my intention.
I was just talking about two things: expectations for season 6 and the impossibility to develop a theory because of the lack of "usable" information.

That's just my way of killing time...; December 29, 2009 at 5:01 PM
Capcom said...: And, to us, a seeming lack of time also PR, for TPTB to answer all the questions that we have!

Hahahaha Wayne, I still have a VCR as well. They'll have to pry my cold dead fingers.....

23 placements??? Is that counting Slusho? Heheh. Did you see the blatant advert on Fringe recently for whatever new SUV they were in, and with the Sirius get-up in the console? VERY distracting, totally took me out of the moment of suspended TV reality for the story.

I believe that was the pilot for the Gunmen where the plane was headed for the WTC. It was weird though, it aired as the last ep in NY right before it got cancelled, since the series kept getting pre-empted by basketball games or something dumb like that. I had forgotten all about it until my cousin reminded me of it after the real WTC happened. Chris Carter really had a bead on things back then, and his timing for those kinds of topics was freaky. Now, not so much I guess.; December 29, 2009 at 5:14 PM
Capcom said...: P.S. It's a good thing that the DI didn't use Beta, they very well could have gone that direction way back then.

:o); December 29, 2009 at 5:15 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Capcom, Horace knew VHS was the one that would take off. Phil owned the Betamax.

On HEROES, it was REAL products, not counting the comic store scenes where every comic shown were the ones written by Jeff Loeb while he was still writing HEROES. Can't think of the famous restaurants, but Peter Petrelli was like, meet me at the ------, everyone goes there" and they show ONE exterior shot. Claire walks into her dorm room in the first few minutes, her roommate has her Facebook page up. And the money keeps changing hands. The things that bug me, of all of it (like your SUV) is when they almost call out a slogan, as with the restaurant. Obviously it didn't work, as I cannot recall the name.; December 29, 2009 at 7:40 PM
Thunderstorm said...: I am quite opinionated about the ending and how it will predictably be received.

There seems (to me) to be three ways to go.

1. Absolutely conclusive. The Island is a spaceship and we have aliens and ET technology explains all the 'magic'...or the volcano blows up the Island killing everyone on it, etc.

2. Ambiguous. The End? Jack's eye in the jungle, two possible endings wrapped in one. No clear resolution. Asking a BIG ass question right at the end, etc.

3. Burn them at the Stake!!!!
Vincent's dream/Hurley's dream/drug-induced hallucination/ false memory implants, etc.

I don't think it matters which one they choose. The one constant among all 3 choices is that, no matter what, people will be bitching about mysteries that were left hanging.

So with that already, inevitably in the cards there are only two choices here. 1 or 2. And I am perfectly cool with both.

#1 is very narrow margin for error.
People will likely either love it or hate it. Because if it's conclusive enough, it SHOULD evoke that kind of reaction. I don't see much middle ground.

#2 I prefer this one, but I can certainly see the disdain some could have for a non-conclusive ending. However, I think many of us who want to see the myth live on, would like something that gives more than one possible conclusion. Not fade to black like Tony Soprano, but maybe literally TWO conclusions that may or may not be mutually exclusive of one another.

#3 Simply not acceptable under any circumstance by anyone, including (you would have to think) the network that wants to make $$$ off the DVD's for years to come. It couldn't happen, right? Well, I am pretty sure it won't but apparently JJ is involved in this ending...so I wouldn't lay money down on it.

#2 for me, but #1 is fine.
Even if it's a HUGE deus ex machina that falls out of Damon's ass, it would be better than anything that invalidates the whole narrative.; December 29, 2009 at 11:35 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i agree with Squish that the dragon is not eating it's tail but i still think it is an alchemical oroborus, albeit a stylized one

kinda like the Oceanic logo is a stylized Nazar

Oceanic logo = Turkish Fly Air logo

in other words, i don't think we can take any symbol too literal; December 30, 2009 at 6:40 AM
Greg Tramel said...: alchemical oroborus; December 30, 2009 at 6:43 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i agree pr649, trying to figure it all out before the fat lady sings may be futile but it sure is fun

even with all the spoilers i have NO idea how they are going to manage to wrap it all up during the limited hours left and like Thunderstom said the no matter how it ends there are going to be disappointed fans

i see Lost as more as a jumping off point for exploring esoteric topics so it's all about the journey even if my wacky ideas have to be thrown out the widow when Lost wraps; December 30, 2009 at 6:54 AM
Capcom said...: Wow, I didn't catch that "everyone goes there" thing, that's pretty cheap.

I'd pick a #1 ending, because if I wanted to wonder what happened forever I wouldn't need an ending. But having said that, I wouldn't at all mind a definitive ending that wraps up the overall story, but also leaves us still wondering what the future of one or more of whomever is left is going to be, or could be, in our imaginations. If that makes any sense. :-)

Well, that Fly Air logo is very interesting. The Oceanic logo always reminded me of Evil Eye jewelry, and that FA logo really looks like that. Are they superstitious much? Heheh.; December 30, 2009 at 9:08 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: There are also people watching the show for the relationships, don't forget. The average viewer coupled with those not playing the ARGs watch it for certain characters. I know my elderly auntie does as she cannot follow the trime flashes, etc.

I can only see it looping, but then, we saw the eye at the end of S5. I have to see at least the first ep of S6 to even guess what the last one will entail. The tagline is Destiny Calls, but I don't think that destiny calls for all of them to end up on the Island. Alive, I mean. I hold out that there will be a few major deaths.

I forgot to mention the Sopranos ending, and I know it worked the same way LOST did/does/will. I knew the intent was to have several events lead up in those final moments to the cut to black and let it be a, well, what do you think? moment. My older relatives never even thought about it in more than one way, it was all about was Tony killed or not. Same stuff I heard at the printing plant. Truth is, it could also be as simple as Tony closing his eyes for a few seconds.

I did mention DALLAS, for all you young'uns everybody. I don't want to see Jack opening his eye and then seeing Patrick Duffy stepping out of the shower.

My big, nutso theory. The Temple is on the flip side of the Island, the top of the Island camoflauge over the centuries. And the Island will simply tip upside-down at the end. Or...the Island will balance on its side and the frozen wheel will become a steering wheel.

That made me think of Blood, Sweat, & Tears, "what goes up, must come down, spinning wheel, got to go round.; December 30, 2009 at 2:40 PM
Greg Tramel said...: sorta off topic but she has some good eyes over here

Chi-Rho; December 30, 2009 at 2:57 PM
neoloki said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; December 30, 2009 at 4:27 PM
neoloki said...: The one thing Damon and Carlton have been saying since around season 2 is that the show will not turn out to be a dream and it won't have a sixth sense style ending.

So any notion that is related to a dream, snow glob, purgatory, etc, al. can be taken off the table as the ending. I think just through their consistent response to this question it is enough to believe them or at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

They also have been fairly consistent about the mysteries saying some will be answered and some wont. Lost will end with enough mystery, hopefully, to keep us theorizing, but it will also be conclusive it in it's ending. The one thing I feel pretty positive about is the fact that they do not want an open ending. They do not want to revisit the series as a movie or any other serialization. The story will be done. If it means killing every character or blowing up the damn Island I would not put it past them.

So it is my opinion that pr649 is pretty much completely wrong.; December 30, 2009 at 4:31 PM
Capcom said...: Huh???

Well anyway, we're just letting ideas ramble here. :-); December 30, 2009 at 6:03 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: neoloki, I agree perfectly. That is also kinda why I don't have that much to add re: the ALT reality. Even that seems dream-like and too easy a fix if they aren't careful.

I think it was Fishbiscuitland who brought this up over the summer, but there is something to the Locke/Jack=Jacob/MIB (or vice versa). So for me, Destiny Calls is more like, well, if you were destined to die in, say, 2008, you will, or the same for 1954, you did (Adam & Eve). There might be one or three or five key players left, and we can't forget the chess/blackgammon thing. I'm expecting a war and wars have casualties. And if the Island "wants" a new Jacob, it can pick one from those who live when the war is over.

I was somewhat tongue-in-cheek above, for everyone who thinks the Island will just blast off, I was saying, instead, it could flip over, the Temple could then be like the Enterprise or something, and then Jacob would tell someone "Warp 3" or whatever.

And it would more than likely be Tom waking up from a dream and seeing Arturo in the shower. Please tell me someone remembers DALLAS...; December 30, 2009 at 9:05 PM
pr649 said...: Neoloki, what am I wrong about?
I didn't say anything, I don't even have a personal theory...

My post was more like a "they'd better don't screw it up!" from a fan's point of view, that's all...but it was only an excuse to talk about Lost and to kill some time while waiting for S6.; December 31, 2009 at 4:28 AM
Greg Tramel said...: as you all everybody is well aware, i butcher the English language (especially punctuation like Wayne) on a daily basis so don't let language stop anybody from sharing ideas, most likely we'll understand what your trying to say, if not will ask for clarification, we are interested in hearing all kinds of wacky ideas no matter how stupid you may think they are, heck i'm the king of stupid, well maybe Wayne & I will have to bout that out

we caught your drift pr649

did anybody happen to read the stuff at Lost Annotations?; December 31, 2009 at 8:04 AM
Greg Tramel said...: if there is a Dallas or Bob Newhart (or for that matter island as spaceship) type ending i'm gonna go to Cali and punch TPTB

but that is an interesting Temple visual Wayne, i can see it in my mind's evil eye; December 31, 2009 at 8:07 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Here's another Greg. Google up the image of the Anatolia Ruins in Greece. I have the image from Astronomy Photo of the Day, for some reason. Still, the ruins go right up to the cliff and stretch forever.I always remember where Ben signaled Richard (or one of his lookouts) with that mirror. Be interestin to see if that wall has only three sides and the Temple is on the other side of a ridge. Neat image, but hard to envision, as we have even a less clearer view of the shoreline in S5. I'm sure the ruins are on Google images, and it is a neat view.; December 31, 2009 at 9:46 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Let's see, Greg. Bob Newhart-type ending. Fox was on PARTY OF FIVE. O'Quinn, take your pick, let's say MILLENNIUM. Hurley, CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM. Can't imagine anyone waking up in bed next to someone. My bet is it is Desmond seeing Kelvin walk out of the shower with a towel on. I didn't have a dream, Kel. I had a memory. Da Da DUM.; December 31, 2009 at 9:50 AM
Bigmouth said...: Lostmio: I certainly did not mean to single you out. I thought your question about narrative purpose was exactly the right one. What I didn't get was the whole "ewww... that's so gross is can't possibly be true" objection that several comments voiced. All You Zombies (and Roswell That Ends Well) both say otherwise.

Neoloki: A "predestination" paradox is ANY causal loop where effects precede causes through time travel. The loop involving the Incident and Fail-Safe is an example of predestination paradox. An "ontological" paradox is a special kind of predestination paradox where something has no clear origin besides itself. So, all ontological paradoxes are predestination paradoxes, but not vice versa.

Princeton astrophysicist J. Richard Gott actually thinks the universe is one big ontological paradox!; December 31, 2009 at 9:54 AM
neoloki said...: pr649

The ending you envision is what I completely disagree with, as to your post on the 29th. It is my opinion and shouldn't be taken as an insult. It is a common fear this summer/fall, but I see no evidence for the fear thus reject it wholly.

The one thing that is important to remember is that Damon Lindelof is a Fan Boy and as such he will be viewing the resolution of the series with all the ways he can fuck it up. If you have watched or read any of his comments lately he is always talking in a self-depricating manner about how he can still ruin the series. To me this is the most reassuring thing he could possibly say. In other words he still cares and wants to end the series in the best possible way he can. Given his fan boy status he is all too aware of all the series' before who either gave us a cop out or a non-ending. I feel very confidant that Lost will have a fairly unique ending, however it is sure to piss a majority of Lost fans off and that is how it should be. That kind of ending will show a certain integrity on the writer's part. It is just not going to be a hallucination, purgatory, Vincent dreaming or any of the such. I, personally, am hoping for a cataclysmic ending.; December 31, 2009 at 10:03 AM
Greg Tramel said...: AH! Wayne, that's how it will end, the last shot will be Larry David and Hurley smoking in a parking lot; December 31, 2009 at 10:34 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i suppose i prefer a non-extraterrestrial Lost ending, i mean it is a plausible scenario and i’m all for all that ancient astronaut stuff but i just want Lost to be more about supernatural science so when i say there is The Earth and then there is The Island, i mean The Island being more a mystical realm/dimension rather than another planet/asteroid/back of a turtle; December 31, 2009 at 10:57 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: From a fiction writer's standpoint, I can honestly say that the very best of the work I've done are the stories or novellas who take you right up to a door and then it ends w/o the door being opened. (Many of them, like the cat & cop one, aren't what I call my serious work, more a commissioned job.) This was actually the case in a story from HELL IN THE HEARTLAND, where I have a guy on the steps of an abandoned church in the middle of southern Illinois. The story covers his life history leading up to his wanting to be at that church, not knowing it would be abandoned, but he still *might* go inside, and I have him on the first step. Its not a horror story, more one of revenge against a priest who'd done him wrong. But the assumption is that he will open that door. When I lecture, I always use the door example.

In whatever fashion, LOST should end this way, making the viewer open that door. As with the way people complained about the Sopranos, well, they didn't see a door that needed to be opened. They wanted complete resolution. And if LOST even attempted to explain everything, well, THAT is when I'd be p*ssed off.; December 31, 2009 at 12:59 PM
Capcom said...: It's all good, PR. :-); December 31, 2009 at 4:26 PM
neoloki said...: Oh and thanks Big. I am new to many of the in's and out's of time travel and the labyrinth of Paradox's that come with it. Maybe that is why it takes me a little longer to warm up to idea's like Hume/Widmore.; January 1, 2010 at 12:41 AM
Anonymous said...: It is rather interesting for me to read that blog. Thanks for it. I like such themes and everything that is connected to them. I definitely want to read a bit more soon.; January 1, 2010 at 3:07 AM
annebeth said...: Hi guys,
just wanted to show you this new promo pic, Lost Last Supper.

How cool is that?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_n3eH1jI8AZ8/SzzyqB1OpxI/AAAAAAAAQ2w/9iukLwc3zs0/s1600-h/last+supper+promo+pic.jpg; January 1, 2010 at 7:05 AM
Greg Tramel said...: yeah, very cool! annabeth

so is Sawyer Judas?

lost last supper; January 1, 2010 at 8:28 AM
Capcom said...: Happy Twenty-Ten fellow Sickies!

:-D; January 1, 2010 at 8:50 AM
Anonymous said...: That's interesting that J.Richard Gott believes the universe is its own mother--branching and creating itself through a time loop. That would be like our main Lost characters all being their own ancestors through a time loop in the REAL, unseen cycle of time, and this is what keeps the world from being able to end.

The time cycle and events that we're familiar with were actually altered by MIB (his "loophole") and Jacob is working to course correct MIB's doings.

J.; January 1, 2010 at 10:02 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: What magazine is that from, anyone know? I hardly ever see LOST magazine here anymore, the guy at Borders says they only buy about five to ten issues. Having Sawyer as Judas I think is subjective to the original painting, because of course we already know "Locke" has been resurrected and there's no reason left for "Sawyer" to betray him. Still a somewhat interesting group photo, as I like me my group photos. The individual shots with the branches in the doorways were nutty. The group shot from last year was very cool.

I can't tell, are there visual cues on the table? I'm butchering the full story, but the mystery of the painting containing a musical score was figured out by adding the loaves of bread to the apostles' hand gestures, but I could not tell you the score. I read of the discovery maybe five years back. I guess bunnies on the table wouldn't look right.; January 1, 2010 at 10:10 AM
Bigmouth said...: It reminds me of the Last Supper layout EW did for the last season of BSG.; January 1, 2010 at 10:14 AM
Greg Tramel said...: yeah, i remember being wowed by the BSG Last Supper

the Lost Supper photo was actually in US Weekly The Lost Supper

Kate is Judas?

Lost Supper parodies abound Suddenly Last Supper

anybody see the 2010 Starchild yet?

i've been watching "Jacob" play Lucifer on Supernatural

and watched "Hurley" and "Juliet" in Christmas movies, i remember Hurley's hilarious character from Becker as well even though i don't think i ever watched a complete episode, BTW, Hurley sold pot to Larry David in Curb Your Enthusiasm

yes, i'm a pop culture junkie; January 1, 2010 at 10:59 AM
neoloki said...: well, BSG started using that photo as a promo for the final half of the series. I doubt Lost will be using their photo from US magazine. Since it was composed by a photographer from the magazine, there isn't much to read into.
If Lost was actually going to do something like The Last Supper it could be done better.; January 1, 2010 at 11:12 AM
Greg Tramel said...: "sons of Korah also were porters of the temple"

Korah is Esau's son who rebelled against Moses

Korah is the cousin of Aaron

in the Book of Numbers, Korah and his followers were trapped (like maybe in The Temple) awaiting their release by the return of the Messiah; January 1, 2010 at 11:23 AM
Greg Tramel said...: good points Neology, er I mean NeoLoki; January 1, 2010 at 11:24 AM
Greg Tramel said...: "Kohathites (Shadow of the Statue Secret Society?)carried the Ark of the Covenant on their shoulders"; January 1, 2010 at 11:31 AM
Greg Tramel said...: Korah forsaw that the prophet Samuel would be his descendant

as always i'm not implying to take any name/symbol too literal i just thought it was time to add bit more Christian symbolism into the mix since TPTB always say the Bible is a big influence; January 1, 2010 at 11:42 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I agree that the poster means zip, and I've never seen BSG. Even still, pretty unoriginal to copy that, though, as I'm typing this, Big did post the BSG pic here. Would have been more clever to have rabbits and fishbiscuits on the table.

Greg, I like all the different names you are pulling up. Sometimes I think a big (and hugely proactive) reveal would be Ilana telling everyone who she worked for, and have it involve some odd name, you know what I'm trying to say. All we have are two names in 5 seasons, Jacob and Tarawet. If there is more to the mythology than what MIB's true name is, Esau or Tramel, etc., then I hope we get it in the first few episodes, so we can all scramble. Remember how cool it was trying to identify the statue early on in S5?; January 1, 2010 at 1:50 PM
Thunderstorm said...: I really liked the BSG promo, thought it was clever. Somebody else mentioned this on the DarkUFO comments section (which I normally avoid, because of all the sheer stupidity) but I don't even remember The Sopranos doing it but apparently they did it as well.

I'd have to agree that it means very little.

That said, I'd like to see an original mock-up of another piece of 'art' using only Kate and Claire but I digress...

Anyhow, Sayid is in the Judas position IMO. 4th from the left.
There are 6 to Locke's right hand side, (our left) just as there are 6 to Jesus' right hand side. So it should be a one for one match-up, if it were meant to be literal.; January 2, 2010 at 11:26 AM
Thunderstorm said...: For the hell of it (and perhaps there might have been something to this...although I know most of us kind of doubt it.)

Left to right (viewer)

Bartholomew (Ilana)
James the Lesser (Richard)
Andrew (Claire)
Judas (Sayid)
Simon Peter (Kate or Sawyer)
John (Kate or Sawyer)
Big Daddy (Locke)
"Doubting" Thomas (Jack)
James the Greater (Jin)
Philip (Ben)
Matthew (Hurley)
Thaddeus (Sun or Miles)
Simon the Zealot (S, M or Frank)

a few of these make some sense, Jack, Hurley (Matthew was a rich man who gave up his riches to follow Jesus) Simon Peter was Jesus best pal (more or less) and that might make some sense for Sawyer.

Anyways, I was bored...; January 2, 2010 at 11:35 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: It just kills me that the photographers and magazine editors can't come up with something other than the Last Supper trope. I was photographed for Chicago magazine and the editor insisted the photographer film me at the U of Chicago, even though neither of us knew what the other looked like and there were easily twenty other choices. The editor went to U of C and that was that.

So the blame truly isn't on the photographer, and perhaps if I saw a better res of this, I'd appreciate (or not) the use of background and foreground, because each photographer wants to make their photo unique.

I liked the S5 photo with everyone dressed formal and sitting in that huge dark room with trees and odd branches, and outside you saw a water tower and buildings with fire escapes in daylight. I kept that as one of my shuffled screensavers.

To clarify: if the editor waved off the photographer to do the LS and his/her heart wasn't in it, I blame the photographer for a mediocre shot.; January 2, 2010 at 3:09 PM
Greg Tramel said...: here's a better scan which includes other last suppers talked about here (sorry wayne re source)

Last S uppers; January 2, 2010 at 4:03 PM
Greg Tramel said...: whistleblower emerges to confirm reality of time travel; January 2, 2010 at 7:48 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Greg, its funny. Whenever the Examiner.com page shows up, it has Chicago underneath the logo. I know the cities change (at least, I think they do), but its still weird.; January 2, 2010 at 9:28 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Also, instead of the LS, they should have done Beach Blanket Bodycount, everyone hanging out near Tarawet. And no one think they can swipe BBB, I've already used it as a story title. You'd think the magazine would have gone for the beach motif.; January 2, 2010 at 9:30 PM
neoloki said...: well, I just read a comment on SL-Lost from a staff member that said this is a promo pic created by ABC and Bob D'amico. This contradicts other things I have read. Who knows. Still seems a little half-assed though.; January 2, 2010 at 11:34 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Maybe its time to come up with other usages for the LS, seeing as how ABC can't be original. If they did one for Barney Miller, would Wojo be Judas? Of course, that's a comedy. Serious shows deserve seriously thought out promo ads that are totally original, right?; January 3, 2010 at 10:15 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: By the way, I'm watching 316, and there's a line Eloise tells Jack, Sun, and Ben re: going home or coming home. I had to stop watching because, in an unrelated story, I burned the tips of my left fingers ever so slightly. I might just check the transcripts today, I never got past the scene where Desmond storms away.; January 3, 2010 at 10:18 AM
Capcom said...: We you changing lightbulbs while standing in a puddle of water again, Wayne??? j/k

:o); January 3, 2010 at 12:40 PM
Thunderstorm said...: Making Sayid the Judas is probably the single biggest hint here outside of the more obvious things (Jesus Locke, Doubting Jack etc.)

So if taking this picture with more than a grain of salt, what the hell does Sayid betraying Locke have to do with anything?; January 3, 2010 at 2:10 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: neoloki, had a muscle spasm, started falling, grabbed the coil on the stove's front burner, which was still, well, more than just warm. 2nd degree burns on three fingertips, I already have blisters.If it were my right hand, I likely would have just kept it there.

Thunderstorm, let's say the LOST LS has some meaning, instead of being a BSG rip-off. Which Locke is represented in the photo? That might help with the angles. Sayid did not help Jeremy Benthem, but at least he wasn't a dick about it like a few of the others. So Locke might then hold Sayid a bit higher than Jack or Kate.

If Locke represents Jacob in some way in S6, and he then heals Sayid, the betrayal thing might be a train of thought to follow.; January 3, 2010 at 2:24 PM
Capcom said...: Ouch! Hope that you get better soon Wayne!

Good point, Sayid gave Locke some serious advice, but his was to do something altruistic to get Locke's mind off of himself for a change. Rather than the childish, "You suck!" tactics of Jack and Kate. Sometimes I think that when Locke was at his worst introspective and self-absorbed self, it was when MIB/Jacob was manipulating him the most. Then at other times, I'm not sure.; January 3, 2010 at 3:03 PM
Greg Tramel said...: did anybody understand what Vozzek meant by "Aaron never really existed in the O6 timeline"; January 3, 2010 at 5:13 PM
Thunderstorm said...: Greg, I have no idea. What was the other thing Vozzek said? Didn't he make two wacky claims in that Jensen interview?

Wayne, I don't know...haha, I guess I was somehow failing to consider that Locke is supposed to be dead in the first place.

I wonder if it could be more generally symbolic, that perhaps he betrays the Losties rather than specifically Locke.; January 3, 2010 at 11:36 PM
Thunderstorm said...: I had to look it up myself because it was bugging the hell out of me.

Quoting him (Vozzek):
When Kate walks away from Roger during ''Whatever Happened, Happened,'' did you notice he speaks a line to her in Jack's voice? And that Kate whips her head around and stares at him, dumbstruck, as if she recognizes it?"

Actually that's not that wacky, I suppose. I'll check it out myself later but they used Liz Mitchell's voice when Kate was in the shower in Something Nice Back Home. But of course, there would be an obvious reason for that trickery. This thing makes less sense. Anyone verify that it's Jack's voice?
I'll do it myself by tomorrow night. I am skeptical though.; January 3, 2010 at 11:49 PM
Thunderstorm said...: 3 posts in a row, sorry guys.

I was reading about what this dude Vozzek (who seems to be an apopheniac deluxe on steroids) thought about Aaron, like Greg was asking about. This was mentioned in the Doc Jensen piece that was similar to when Bigmouth got interviewed.

I googled and got to his summary of the episode WHH on DarkUFO and basically stopped there.

Greg, all due respect to Vozzek fans out there, it's bunk. That Kate is somehow imagining Aaron in some instances. And yet he said what he said to Doc Jensen...which implies he meant Aaron didn't exist in that timeline at all.

I think his original idea, about flashes being first person character-only perspectives (which may not be how things actually, objectively occurred) is interesting and something probably some of us have considered before. (such as the different takes of the marina scene in season 5)

But then he ignores that Aaron is acknowledged in the same scenes he uses as 'evidence' for Kate imagining him. Flimsy at best.; January 4, 2010 at 12:22 AM
Bigmouth said...: We discussed the possibility that Aaron was imaginary (or only visible to Kate) in my recap of Whatever Happened, Happened. It's a fun speculation, but too many characters (e.g., Cassidy) explicitly refer to Aaron, confirming his reality.; January 4, 2010 at 8:11 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Hey, gang. Finished up 316 last night, and there's that scene in the church above the Lamp Post with Ben looking at the painting, I think the assumption at the time was that Jack was the Doubting Thomas. Just throwing it out there that the LS painting might have something there. The LP is built above a church, and Eloise does know Brother Campbell. I had been saying that BSG was being ripped off with the LS, but it could have been planned for LOST long before that.

I'll look up Vozzek, I missed the interview or w/e it was.

Big, that was a cool recap you did of WHH. One could argue that Kate imagined Cassidy as an extension of her belief that Aaron=Sawyer, i.e., Kate needed another invisible person to tell her what she wouldn't admit to herself.

Of course, that fell apart once we saw Sun with Aaron.; January 4, 2010 at 9:43 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: This just came to me. We might not want to forget the mirror images. What changes if we flip the photograph around?; January 4, 2010 at 10:41 AM
Ricky said...: Hey guys this is my first post here I lurk mostly, but Neoloki can confirm that I'm pretty Vocal over on Dark's site.

Anyway not that I buy it, but to clarify what Vozzek is trying to say about Aaron, (I bought, and read Vozzek's book), He is saying that to go along with the theory that all of the Flashback/Flashforwards are just implanted memories/situations that the island has put into the minds of the main characters, and that Aaron was never really "Rescued" off the island that from the moment that the island disappeared, it was a false construct of the island for the O-6. So the ramifications of this are: Aaron never left the island or Claire's side, The Aaron that we see lying in the middle of the Jungle is just a "Doppleganger" and not the real Aaron. and that as soon as Kate realizes that She shouldn't have Aaron he just vanishes I/E in the store, but then she freaks and Conjures him up in her head again, and finds him, but as she gives him to Claire's mom, Chances are he is not really 2 doors down waiting for her, What Vozz thinks is that when Claire's mom opens the door to the other room she will find it empty and just think that Kate is a nutcase.; January 4, 2010 at 10:50 AM
Greg Tramel said...: oh, sorry i brought up the Vozzek sh*t if he meant Aaron was imaginary to everybody (all the O6,reporters, Cassidy, lawyers, Claire's mum)

that's just insane, IMHO; January 4, 2010 at 11:14 AM
Greg Tramel said...: now i do actually remember Roger sounding like Jack but for once (unlike the changing squares and circles) thought that was productions issues; January 4, 2010 at 11:17 AM
Ricky said...: Greg I agree that the theory of the O-6 story being un-real is pretty out there, but if for some insane reason that proved to be true then it wasn't just that Aaron was imaginary, everyone was imaginary, and they all were experiencing it in their own heads.

But yeah, it's too convoluted to work without a big Scooby Doo ending where the Big Bad Island god spends 15 minutes re-capping the whole show in monologue form so we can get it!; January 4, 2010 at 11:20 AM
Bigmouth said...: Ricky: Thanks for the clarification, but everyone being imaginary doesn't quite work either. For one thing, it eliminates the significance of other people not seeing Aaron. If they're all imaginary, why do some imaginary people not see him? Also, such a scenario eliminates the stakes associated with them leaving the Island. I maintain that getting the O6 rescued was a key step in MIB's loophole. It's a really nifty notion, but one that stops making sense the more you think about it. Love Vozzek, and am super psyched to see him profiled, but this one's too whackadoo even for me.; January 4, 2010 at 11:28 AM
Ricky said...: I personally agree with you Big, I was just being the Devil's (Vozzek's) advocate for a minute!; January 4, 2010 at 11:34 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I'm always the devil's advocate, Ricky. And true, Claire's mom could have found an empty room--and don't get me started on Kate leaving a kid alone in a motel room to yet again serve her own purposes--but that still leaves Sun. Unless, and I'm obviously out of the loop(hole) here, are all of the 06 imaginary, Sun included? Is there a link for this theory?

I agree with Big about the notion being harder to accept the more you look at it, I'm just taking from it what I have read here.

The one thing we all know is that, after his birth being a lynch pin for the first few seasons, he's dropped off the map as much as Sun's overall participation in S5.; January 4, 2010 at 11:46 AM
Ricky said...: Yeah Wayne: as I said the idea that Aaron is only imaginary (in the O-6 timeline), only works if you buy into the idea that any and all off island sequences, including all flashbacks and all Flashforwards are really just a memory or scenario put into the individual character's head by the island as to persuade their on island actions sort of like a little push in a certain direction so as to move the "Game" of LOST forward.

So to each individual character they only perceive what it is the island wants them to perceive, whether that be in Flashback form or in Flashforward form, all of the Characters have a similar experience separately but each one perceives it slighly different depending on what the island has in store for them.

But like I said I really don't buy into this, it's just that I finished reading Vozzek's book yesterday morning so it's all fresh in my mind and could be interesting , but also would seem to make the whole show thus far a little to contrived IMHO.

But I will say that I do buy into the idea that LOST is a Game of sorts (not literally) Between two opposing sides, and that all of the crazy stuff we've seen is really just Traps and loopholes in the "Game". But the consequences of this "Game" are life and death! But the biggest twist is the time-travel which seems to be a sort of glitch being used by both players.; January 4, 2010 at 12:10 PM
Greg Tramel said...: thnak god for devil's advocates and thanks for the clarification, my next question was gonna be has anybody read the book, how was it Ricky?

i suppose everything from the O6's in the helicopter seeing the island disappear was in O6's imagination is possible but OTOH may be a little too whackadoo EVEN for us

i guess the helicopter could have crashed on island instead and they all regained consciousness right after in their imagination Ajira crashed so the O6 never actually physically left the island and when they regained consciousness some woke up in 1977 and some woke up in 2007 on island; January 4, 2010 at 12:21 PM
Ricky said...: @ Greg:
Ha Ha! Yeah man it's wackadoo alright!

But regarding the book, It is definitely an interesting read and worth the 11.99 plus shipping ($16 total) that I paid to get it to me.

Mainly it focuses on the idea that the island and the actions on it are all a matter of perception not only to us the viewers, but to all the characters too, but it also goes in depth on certain characters like Hurley for instance, and it also brings up several things that Vozzek noticed that literally compelled me to pop in the corresponding DVD to analyze for myself. For instance certain incorrect voices speaking through other characters.

But what really made this book so fun to read were the references that Vozz brought up regarding clues to the endgame of LOST like how many times a character says something to the effect of "Everything Changes!" or the fact that all the characters seem to be re-living certain things for an umpteenth time but really don't register this fact as much as it comes across like Deja Vous (spelling?) to them, like on a subconscious level.

Another interesting thing that Vozz brings up is; that it seems some or most of the characters repeat in a very similar fashion what other characters have done in the past.

And finally, he makes a point to show the reader that for most of the characters, as soon as they reach the point of near enlightenment or resolution, they are somehow taken from the Game board.; January 4, 2010 at 12:40 PM
Capcom said...: I've noticed that too, when some people finally get their act together, they die.; January 4, 2010 at 3:14 PM
Greg Tramel said...: there's definitely something to the Lost is a Game idea and/or once a character figures it all out they die

thanks Ricky for info on the book, sounds interesting, i’ll try to buy it for the library i work at

anybody read this book?

Myth of Lost

the only Lost book ive read (and i don’t even think i read the whole thing) was the book Wayne contributed to

Getting Lost

any other Lost books worth reading?; January 4, 2010 at 3:38 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: GETTING LOST was actually the 2nd LOST book in print, not counting the LOST "novels". (Nothing to do with me, but the book is the 2nd best selling book by BenBella after THE MATRIX TRILOGY, and its a shame they haven't updated it.)

Well, I guess I'm going to have to look this Vozzek book up since no one is taking my hints and writing it down here.

Whenever I think of the backgammon game that morphed into chess (which then gave the pieces identities), I can't help but think of the Island as a giant Panopticon. And that someone else is watching Jacob and MIB play. Devil's advocate again, that's me.; January 4, 2010 at 3:56 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: And where did Vozzek first come up? Over at DarkUFO? Just curious.; January 4, 2010 at 3:57 PM
Capcom said...: I haven't read any of the analytical books yet, but I got suckered into Bad Twin.

:o); January 4, 2010 at 4:00 PM
Capcom said...: Vozzek began recapping episodes (titled "Things I Noticed" I believe) that showed up at Dark's. I can't remember if he posted them there first, or if Dark pulled them onto his site from the original site, as he does with the ones that he likes.; January 4, 2010 at 4:03 PM
Greg Tramel said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; January 4, 2010 at 4:05 PM

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Tuesday, December 22, 2009

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