Wednesday, January 28, 2009

Thoughts on Jughead...

Sorry for the delay in posting. Apparently, the Island doesn't want me blogging about this critical episode in its mythology, because I lost my notes on Jughead twice -- the first time about a quarter of the way through rewatching, and then again just as I was finishing. D'oh! Needless to say, I sympathized with Locke's frustration at not being able to complete his conversations with Ricardus Alpert. But not even the Island can stop me from dropping this little bombshell (groan...) on you all.

In my post Lost Time, I suggested that a book called The Big Time might be a major influence on Lost. The premise of Fritz Leiber's sci-fi classic is that two time-traveling factions (the "Snakes" vs. the "Spiders" -- the rest of us are "Zombies") are battling in a temporal conflict called the Change War. As that name suggests, the combatants fight to alter key events in history. Their efforts, however, are constrained by the "Law of the Conservation of Reality," which says that changing the past never alters the future more than the barest minimum possible.

The Big Time is set in a small Spider base outside of spacetime known simply as the Place. By virtue of its location, the Place is immune to the temporal disruptions of the Change War. The book's chilling description of the effects of this Change War was what originally set my Lost sense tingling:

Have you ever worried about your memory, because because it doesn't seem to be bringing you exactly the same picture of the past from one day to the next? Have you ever been afraid that your personality was changing because of forces beyond your knowledge or control? Have you ever felt sure that sudden death was about to jump you from nowhere? Have you ever been afraid of Ghosts -- not the storybook kind, but the billions of beings who were once so real and strong it's hard to believe they'll just sleep harmlessly forever? Have you ever wondered about those things you may call devils or Demons -- spirits able to rage through all time and space, through the hot hearts of stars and the cold skeleton of space between the galaxies? Have you ever thought that the whole universe might be a crazy, mixed-up dream? If you have, you've had hints of the Change War.
The part about the "Ghosts" of people from timelines that no longer exist made me think of Jacob and the Whispers, both of which have a ghostly quality. I was also struck by the reference to "spirits able to rage through all time and space," which reminds me of Desmond's consciousness time travel, and which evokes the message of the Others' brainwashing video that "only fools are enslaved by time and space." To me, moreover, the Law of the Conservation of Reality sounds a lot like course correction. No surprise, therefore, that Ms. Hawking wears a snake pin (i.e., the Ouroboros).

What I didn't mention before, but seems highly relevant in view of Jughead, is the nuclear weapon that drives the plot of Big Time. The characters are trapped in the Place with a "tiny tactical atomic bomb" counting down to detonation. I remember thinking the bomb would be a great metaphor for the Swan -- I never expected we would actually see such a nuke on the show. If you think about it, though, the jughead serves that symbolic purpose perfectly. Like the Island itself, the bomb suffered a breach that must be plugged with lead and buried in cement.

In the spirit of Herb Caen, here are some three-dot thoughts on Jughead:

ARE YOU THE DOCTOR? Penny's difficult childbirth, especially all the hemhoragging, brought to mind the pregnancy problems on the Island. Maybe this was merely for suspense, but I doubt it given Sun's difficult childbirth, as well. A pattern seems to be emerging the whereby children of people connected to the Island are somehow abnormal. Penny never visited the Island herself (at least so far as we know) but Desmond became basically a living extension of it after bathing in its exotic energy during the Swan imposion...When Des told little Charlie (awww...) about the special island he left long ago, I thought for a split second he was talking about the Island. That scene is pregnant with irony (groan...) particularly Penny's warning about her big bad daddy, whose reaction to Desmond's return is surprisingly meek.

YOU JUST COULDN'T STAY AWAY, COULD YOU? At first, I figured that Ellie's line about Daniel not being able to stay away was a reference to some future jump that would take Faraday even further into the past. But it seems clear she was alluding to her belief he was U.S. military...Let me preface my next comment by stipulating that Rebecca Mader is beautiful. Unfortunately, no thanks to my friend MB, I can only see Eric Stoltz's character in Mask whenever she's onscreen...Did Miles simply see the trip wire for the landmines, or did one of those dead soldiers warn him?

SEMPER UBI SUB UBI. Who says Latin is dead? As a former student myself, I was pleased the Others chose it as their secret language. Gives them a kind of secret order feel, like the Freemasons or Knights Templar...Now we know why only some of the Others wore U.S. military uniforms and carried guns -- they scavenged these items from the dead soldiers...The Others took down 18 armed and presumably well-trained soldiers with only bows and arrows. This earlier group of Others seems quite a bit more badass than their modern counterparts...Curious how Daniel makes a point of never revealing his name to Richard.

NO RECORD OF ANY FARADAY. When Desmond was told there were no records of any Faraday at Oxford, I briefly feared they might be going the cliched route of erasing Dan from history. So, I shared Desmond's relief at seeing familiar sights like Faraday's radiation machine and Eloise's maze...I really appreciated how the writers slowly and carefully established the plausibility of Dan's profession of love for Charlotte. Those two have a nice chemistry...It's interesting how Widmore snapping Cunningham's neck parallels Goodwin doing the same to Nathan. Those Others do what needs to be done...Did fate intervene to make Locke hesitate, thereby ensuring a future with Charles Widmore?

AFTER WHAT HE DID TO THAT POOR GIRL. It seems that Theresa is either an intentional or unintentional victim of Faraday's time travel experiments. It's hard for me to believe he would actually test the device on her -- I'm guessing it was an accident of some kind. However it happened, she's obviously unstuck in time, not merely demented...Mr. Widmore has taken a keen interest in Daniel's career, even cleaning up the latter's messes like Theresa. He also obviously knows Daniel's mother, but if they were ever friends, I think they're now estranged. I wonder what she thinks of Widmore's generosity toward her son...

THAT SODDING OLD MAN. I loved the transition from Widmore's dismissal of Locke's tracking skills to the latter surveying the camp from the hillside...Richard is very old and has apparently been on the Island for some time. That suggests his agelessness isn't the result of time travel, as some have speculated. My own pet theory, of course, is that Richard died on the Island long ago but was reincarnated by the Smoke Monster, which is why he never ages...What is it about Ellie that so disturbs Faraday? Is it just her appearance, or does he actually know her in the future? One thing seems clear: whatever brought the Others to the Island, it clearly wasn't time travel, because they seem utterly baffled by the possibility.

JACOB SENT ME. It was fascinating how the name Jacob held such power over Richard as far back as the 1950s. I do wonder how Alpert managed to speak with the Island's ghostly patriarch. I've always thought that was Ben's special talent, which is why he was chosen to be the Others' leader. Richard seemed to be in charge of this crew, but I got the sense his title was interim, which got my whackadoo wheels turning. Is it possible Richard actually knew Jacob? Perhaps Alpert was the latter's second in command. Maybe Jacob was a casualty of the Others' conflict with the U.S. military team...

MR. HUME IS A COLLEAGUE OF MINE. Interesting choice of words by Charles Widmore. He referred to Desmond as a "colleague" instead of an "acquaintance." That implies a level of equality Widmore has never previously afforded Des...I wonder if Widmore has similar precognitive abilities, which is why Richard orignally recruited him to join the Others. That could be what Widmore meant (in the Shape of Things to Come) by the nightmares that drive him to drink in the middle of the night...The revelation that Daniel's mother is in Los Angeles seems to confirm what many of you speculated last week -- i.e., Ms. Hawking is his mother.*

ONE LAST THING. The implication is that Widmore selected Charlotte, Daniel, and Miles for his science team because he remembered encountering them on the Island in the past. That presumably is why he's been funding Faraday's work for all these years. What confuses me is why Widmore didn't track down John Locke sooner. I would have expected him to be present at the Chosen One's birth in Tustin just like Richard Alpert...

*Correction: The original sentence erroneously suggested that Ellie's accent was Kiwi. Her casting call, however, specifies that the character's accent is supposed to be British. So I'm apparently wrong about her being from New Zealand. D'oh!


The March Hare said...

Great episode! Lots to digest. Sorry to back track...but saw something in the "previously on Lost" part when Ben is seen in the church lighting a candle as he seemingly waits for Ms. Hawkings. He seems startled when she appears and then blows out the wood lighting stick he just used to say an unknown prayer and light a candle . Then as if i just hit the GO BACK AGAIN button on the remote...he blows out the same stick again.

Did I just see Ben "come back" from somewhere?

Anonymous said...

Just a first impression that Ellie, the young girl with the rifle is Rousseau. Ellie being short for Danielle. Not to mention they are dressed the same and carry the same weaponry. Lord knows what happens to her and the rest of the "British Others" between then and when the plane crashes. Plus, being British would explain why so many people have criticized Rousseau's French as being so bad. Most Englander's of that period knew at least some French, and it seems she had a very bad experience and a lot of time on her hands to craft her story of being shipwrecked on a research voyage.

- David

SKID said...

So the woman on the island goes by “Ellie.”

. . . and we find out (for the first time?) that Ms. Hawking’s name is ELOISE HAWKING. (THAT came from one of those ABC pop ups in the enhanced episode that I thought were pointless.)

They just might be useful after all.

Hmmmmm. Further evidence that Ellie/Eloise are the same person and she is Mommy Farraday?

We'll know for sure when we see her sitting in a rocking chair pregnant . . . knitting . . . a tie.

(Yes, I am the Farrady tie-guy).

Anonymous said...

Hmm, I didn't watch the re-run episode. Perhaps that fits better than my theory.


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Yes, again with the incidentals. I tuned in just before 8 PM (CST) and saw Eloise, thinking, hey, did I know that? Then we get Ellie, 50 years back. And think of me what you will, but I was happy as a clam in water to see the entire episode (just about) take place on the Island. No O6 stuff.

So...the jughead bomb is what's buried in cement in the Swan? Did the DI build the Swan first, see the cement in the chamber (mistaking it as the energy source)and then start the Orchid, instead using the Swan and Pearl for mind games until The Incident?

Second to enjoying the hell out of this season, its enjoying the hell out of all the eventual comments here along with the disections by Big.

Maura said...

I'm almost certain that Ellie isn't Danielle. Someone 20ish in 1954 would be in her 70s today - that fits for Mrs. Hawking, not Rousseau. Also, Rousseau is French and so far, we've no reason not to believe her story (which includes crashing in the 80s and being left alone for sixteen years). We've already had clues that Mrs. Hawking is Daniel's mother - and even the elaborate type of hairstyle matches! I wonder if Widmore is Daniel's father...?

Anonymous said...

So was Locke "chosen" because he went back and told Richard he was chosen? That hurts my head just thinking about it.

machramm said...

I too thought Ellie was Ms. Hawking when she first appeared and said "You just couldn't stay away, could you?" Now that I know Ms. Hawking's first name is Eloise, I am nearly certain.

Kudos to all of us who had the "gut feeling" that Jones was Widmore.

I had to smile when Desmond called his son Charlie. It brought a happy tear to me eye. (But then I thought, hey wait a minute, grandaddy's name is Charles also.) I'm trusting he was named after Charlie.

Locke is special in a way that has more meaning than him just making it happen by speaking into reality. He has shown the greatest amount of healing by the island that I can think of. said...

Good episode. There's a ritual I follow. I view the show, jot down my initial feelings and then come here. Next to filmfodder, some of the best comments/ideas can be found here. Here are some of my inital thoughts:

Never could figure out why Widmore chose Daniel, Charlotte, and Miles (connection?) – is it because he met them in the past – and this is/was the way it’s supposed to play out? Even he has 'rules' he's supposed to follow?

Last week I was against Mrs. Hawkings being Daniel’s mom – too easy I thought. Now that Desmond has to go to LA … also, this will put Desmond back in contact with the Oceanic 6.

Think Desmond is very safe … for now. Widmore now realizes the role he plays in all of this. I think in addition to the role he has to play, it's his love for Penny that made him he warn Desmond to play his role and then get out. Wonder if he knows he has a grandson (Charlie, lol!). I find it hard to believe that he doesn't. A man of his wealth, can’t find someone?

Scared for Penny. Ben swore vengence after the death of Alex. Now that she’s following Desmond, this will place her in harm’s way.

Always believed that Juliet’s not to be trusted, those feelings have intensified. There’s too much that’s unknown about her. I keep thinking back to her arrival to the island and how ‘green’ she was. What type of ‘training’ did she have to turn her into the ‘latin speaking, a&^ kicking, perfect shooting, manipulative’ person that she’s now? Also, how come she’s traveling with our 815ers? She’s an other, I thought they didn’t travel?

Locke. We now know given the choice between the 815ers and The Others, he's gonna chose The Others.... Interesting.

That's all I have for now ...

Alex said...

Just in case anyone forgot - last season Faraday told Desmond to tell him in the past that he knows about Eloise (lab rat that he used the brain time travel on). The rat and Hawking have the same name and both are directly related to time travel - plus Widmore funding his research...

Based on his obsession with time travel, knowledge of almost everything that goes and went on at the island, I have no doubt that Faraday is connected with Hawking and Widmore in a stronger manner than what we have already seen.

Also noticed the recurring theme for science vs. faith. The others circa 1954 would be those of faith and clearly Dharma/Military of those of science. I would go so far as to say this battle has been going on for much longer (see Black Rock)

I am in agreement with everyone else that season 4 is awesome so far!

Anonymous said...

Just a minor, probably insignificant thought after learning about the Others conversing in Latin. The name "James" in Latin is basically equivalent to "Jacob"...

- A new mind unstuck person named Theresa. Are her trips back and forth in time like falling down the stairs, then falling back up the stairs?

- If Pierre Chang freaked out about drilling near the exotic matter, what would he say to a Hydrogen bomb possibly going off near that limitless source of energy? Maybe Jughead will be popping up as again as a harbinger of the coming doomsday...

- Why do I picture the Others having Jughead on an altar in the Temple, with Alpha and Omega on it? Oh, sorry, wrong sci-fi piece, "Damn you all to Hell!"

- Think we'll get to see Richard give young Ben the leadership test at some point? I would guess him choosing the Book of Laws.

- The debate is over: Richard is very long lived/ages very slowly (something I've always ascribed to), NOT a timelord or any such thing. Heck, it even seems he was unaware that time travel was a possibility until Locke popped up in 1954 and told him so.

BTW - I became acquainted with bigmouth at the Lost Numbers Forums, where he is sorely missed.

Jason said...

Well all my thoughts have been covered here already. I've been really excited that we've been through THREE episodes and these been no Jack / Kate bullcrap. Unfortunately that comes to a screeching halt as in next weeks preview had a flash of them "passionately" connecting faces (ohhhhhh God I hate that storyline continuously shoved down my throat).

80sPro said...

Oh wow.

Oh here it is.
I am SURE of this theory, thanks to you smarties who realized that Ellie and Eloise are one in the same.

Danny boy says "you look like-" but he did NOT mean the girl in the bed as others have thought. He meant his MOM! So she IS Hawking. Omigod.

She is the same age as Widmore.

Widmore is DANIEL's FATHER!!!!!!!

He funded Danny's work because he both felt obligated and it furthers his need to get back to The Island.

Ben works with Eloise because it may be that she and Widmore arrived at different ideas about the whole thing.

Further to that, they, as well as Richard Alpert and Jacob, are from Black Rock.

Why do Ellie and Widmore age? Who knows. But seems SHE left because she got pregnant with Danny, and he left but maybe wants to go back to reclaim his youth or at least stop aging where he is.


80sPro said...

Oh I had another weird one.

What if Charlie - Des and Penny's boy - is CHARLIE? He's got that blonde mop. There is all kinds of weirdness, so I would not rule it out.

Also, we all assume Miles is Hallochang's boy - what if Jin DID survive, ends up on the Island and with the others, and SOMEHOW is Miles' daddy?

So Faraday is Widmore's kid,
and Miles is Jin's kid,
and wee Charlie is CHARLIE.

Cy said...

I think we have started to see that John is a false prophet. In the past episodes, Richard was looking for Locke (and giving him the leadership test) only because john came back and told him Richard that Jacob sent him (and then disappeared with the flash).

That would explain the obvious disappointment when Locke fails the leadsership test later. Even later, when Richard tells John that it they have been waiting for him for a long time, it's only because John planted the seed himself.

I think John could be a red herring. Could Aaron be the real leader? Did Christian really want John to turn the Donkey wheel (and not Ben)?

Also, seeing young Widmore on the island was pretty cool.

Thanks for the Blog, I look forward to reading it every week.

Anonymous said...

Hello All!

I just had some thoughts...

*Oceanic Airlines is owned by Widmore. The line that sticks out is when he confronts Sun at the airport and states "they will do what I tell them to do" this same line is repeated by Ben to Locke in Season4. I think there is a faction of others that left with Widmore and are wanting to get back to the island thus helping him fake the crash, Abbandon confronting Hurley and the lawyers confronting Kate.

* I agree that Eloise is DF's mother and Widmore could be his father.

I love reading your theories! Keep'em up! Saudi

BJ said...

I think you have to ask the question about Theresa... is her condition the driving force that motivates Dan to discover the mysteries of time travel? From what we've learned about Dan so far he doesn't seem like the abandoning type. I suspect he believes the only way to "rescue" Theresa is by following the path he is on. If she were just an insignificant "test subject", would we have gotten an episode that dealt this much with Des accidentally finding her? Would Widmore be funding her care? Nothing happens by accident on LOST... at least not anymore. The remaining episodes seem pretty focused on what needs to happen to reach the conclusion next year. So then, who is she and why is she so significant? And how is she still alive if she is really stuck in time the way we've seen so far?

April W said...

Just rewatched the episode on, and I have to agree that the way this is going, Eloise is Ellie. But Widmore does not necessarily have to be his dad. For all we know, it is Richard ie. the dark hair and eyes. Widmore is light haired the same as Ellie, and she seems to be a little more aligned with Richard in mannerisms than Widmore. But can we go back to "The Lie" episode where we see Faraday down in the Orchid where they are drilling. #1 How did he get there alone? Where is everyone else, and is this him traveling with the island or on his own? & was he there to check on Jughead because he knew where/when it was buried? Other than that, I am scared as well for Penny. I think that she is doomed, and her demise will set off the cataclysmic end with Desmond going off the deep end. As the wild card, what would happen if he went back to the island to avenge her?

80sPro said...


I agree completely about Daniel not abandoning anyone.

I think I can see where you are going about Locke, too, BJ. I think maybe the bottom line is that [sadly] he's always made himself to be more than he is.

Richard as Daniel's dad? Wow.

Widmore has other "others"? Of course, same as Ben has people on the outside. Scientologists, maybe? Is Tom Cruise going to show up next?

I agree completely that NOTHING is happenstance. That's why it's important that Sawyer got "toed" in the last ep. They even point it out on the recap.

JLes said...

Bold prediction time:

Charlotte Staples Lewis is Daniel Faraday's DAUGHTER.

At some point in the future Daniel and the chick who he abandoned that's bedridden had a daughter (Charlotte). The reason that Charlotte is bleeding out is beccause the bedridden chick (Theresa? I don't know her name) is dying....which would mean that Charlotte never existed. Daniels mission this whole time is to save his daughter and his baby momma. would explain why he said, "Because I love her" and then confirmed that he genuinely meant it despite really having no physical, romantic relationship.


Anonymous said...

Jles-That fits and is crazy enough to be true. Love it.

80sPro said...

All in the fricken family.

That just might work. Everyone IS connected - for a reason. By design. OH MAN!

WHO needs drugs to get high??? Man, with all you people BLOWING my mind with this stuff, I am feel like I am totally ON something!

Anonymous said...

I'm absolutely certain that anyone on the island who was with others* is time skipping while in the temple. Its just that the temple was built before the earliest skip point, and therefore everyone in it can wait safely until its over.

*possibly with the exception of Richard Alpert, but I'm pretty sure he's there too.


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I don't know that Locke plays himself out to be much more than he is, I think he has trouble with self-esteem. Ben screwed with him, and I think he was STILL screwing with him when he apologized for making his life so miserable. He went nuts once he and Eko saw the Pearl Orientation video, but that was from doubt, his thinking pushing the button was the psychological test, when it was really the note-jotting in the Pearl. My worries are that Locke is still being played as a patsy, he was supposed to leave the Island, not Ben. Richard Alpert is taking Locke's word about being the eventual leader on the faith of a man who quite often lost his own.

Forgot about the rat. Naming a rat after Mom...because she gave him the time travel in your mind idea...? If anyone is questioning ages, I'm wondering if the Island slows down the aging process while you are on it, so Widmore and Hawking needn't be in their 70s.

As always, enjoying the comments.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey! I checked to make certain, but one of the first Anon. posters here gave me a weird deja vu moment describing unstuck in time Theresa and falling up the stairs and falling down the stairs. Yep,I did recall the name correctly (as I think Anon. did), when Boone had his dream with Locke, he talked about his babysitter Theresa falling down the stairs falling up the stairs, she had fallen and broken her neck when responding to his cries. Its in the transcripts of "Deus Ex Machina."

Doesn't mean anything to the show past how they've been planting the seeds with certain phrases and images all along. I think I need to rewatch Boone in Locke's sweat lodge dream in "Further Instructions." Maybe there can be clues to be found in conversations between the two...

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

I totally agree with you Wayne about how Ben might still have been messing with John when he "apologized for making his life so miserable". That has never sat right with me and I don't buy it. At least I wouldn't buy it if I were Locke and Ben said it to me after all he'd done to me! Or, maybe Ben was just being a sourgrapes-poopiepants on his way down to the FDW. :o)

I also often worry that Locke is still going to mess his own self up in the future as much as he has in the past. He won't listen to anyone, unless they agree with where his head is at, and he has tantrums when he doesn't get his way. I also worry that Locke's goofyness is going to set up the "bad things".

It is weird that we have another Teresa, but it wouldn't be the first time TPTB duplicated a name with no connection on the show.

James said...

I like the idea that Jin is Hellokitty's er... Hallochang's offspring, that would be a nice twist...especially since Jin hasn't been resolved yet. Without getting into paradoxical situations, these first few episodes have really planted the idea of paradox happening due to the island, notedly Lock and Alpert (compass). Is Ms. Hawking trying to fix these paradoxes? Or is she just waiting to get back to the island and get all steamy in the jungle with Widmore.... When I first saw Ellie, I thought Danielle, but that doesn't fit, all signs point to Hawking. Lastly in this jumbled up mess of a post, Faraday and Penny as twins separated by island seeking factions makes a good story, but not character based, i.e. what would that mean to the show (no benefit or loss..yet, as opposed to the Claire Jack Christian saga, whereas Aaron binds them and defines them). Sorry for the mind dump, but can't wait for the post!

Anonymous said...

I am so psyched about this season!

My first feeling about Ellie was also that she was Ms. Hawking in the past and also that Widmore could be Daniel's father. But Charlotte being Daniel's daughter? Wow, that's so crazy it actually makes sense. She is bleeding out the nose because she doesn't have a constant . . . remember Desmond? Maybe it's because she doesn't KNOW she has a constant in Daniel. There was a comment about "the island needs a constant". I think if that is the case, then the constant is Locke. What do you think?

Also . . . I had to go back and watch part of "Cabin Fever" where Richard goes to meet a young John Locke. So we all know he took the test, but when he took the knife Richard got upset and left. Does anyone have thoughts on why? Maybe it's because Locke wasn't supposed to die. I caught in the trailor for next week that he tells Sawyer to kill him . . . maybe he stabs Locke with the knife. I wish I had more time to go back and watch past episodes to catch clues. It almost makes sense to watch the show that way - in reverse!

Lizzie said...

It's all a bit like Terminator. Wouldn't have happened if no one had gone back in time? :)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

To the Anon. above Lizzie above me: You can always go to Lostpedia and read transcripts of each episode, at least, I'm guessing they are all up there. When I read how the first Anon. (way up top) described Theresa and the stairs, it kinda makes me wonder if Big (not big personally, just his blog presence) has some nameless posters trying to nudge us in certain directions. Its not surprising two characters are/were named Theresa, it IS surprising when one analogy matches a scene from two years ago. The transcripts from Lostpedia is how I tracked that down. (And of course falling up and down stairs is a sort of time loop, right?)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Nice post, big. Makes sense about Widmore funding the group, so does that make Abaddon an employee of Widmore's? It was Abaddon who suggested Locke talk a walkabout.

Re: Faraday: Ellie sure seems to have the same kind of odd-yet-cool hairstyle thing going as Eloise Hawking.

Good post, as always.

Anonymous said...

Wayne Allen Sallee:

This is the First Anon (bigmouth might remember me as NetProphet from elsewhere). As he is no longer posting over at 4,8,15,16,23,42, I popped in here to check his thoughts and ended up leaving a few of my own.

So no shadow conspiracy - just sharing the sickness we all have.

You nailed my point on the Theresa analogy exactly.

Over in my main haunt, I also had the same idea as bigmouth about Locke's inability to shoot Widmore before he even knew who he was. Brought to mind an article I read called "The Downing Street Dilemma", and how a consistent history paradigm of time travel would nullify grandfather type paradoxes.

P.S. - If you read this bigmouth, I recently bumped your antipode theory after seeing Mrs. Hawking's computer screens. :)


80sPro said...

Abaddon IS his employee, since Abaddon represents Oceanic in at least one episode.

Interesting - Abaddon also does not appear to age - so is he time-vacationing too?

I really think that we're going to find that the whole thing is screwed up because of this time travel. Everything from previous seasons is happening because of this. They were ALL on that plane for a reason. And it isn't because they were "Lost Souls" needing to be found. It's because one way or another, all of them, including Christian and even Boone, Eko, and "missing" characters like Walt and Jin, are unstuck in time.

So I would not be at all surprised if Charlie ends up being Charlie (he maybe gets adopted), Jin ends up being Miles' dad because of time travel, that Charlotte is Daniel's daughter. Who knows? Maybe not all of it, but SOME of it.

So is James actually Jacob? They showed the foot getting hurt in the "previously on" clip. It means something. But like Wayne Allen Sallee has said - everything at this point means something. There simply aren't enough episodes left to slip meaningless dialogue or action in to!

By the way - I have been a regular reader here for some time, commented a couple. I hearken back to the original group of theorists from IMDb - which got stupid fast. Last season it was fun to read and post on Buddy TV. But there are WAY too many people stuck in some logical explanation for everything that they reject the crazy notions. I LOVE coming here because everyone lets the other just get wild with their notions. You're a good group. Helps of course that Big ABSOLUTELY bends our brains. Anyway, so thanks!

Capcom said...

Interesting post!

LOL, about "Mask", wow.

I too wondered about Miles "hearing" warnings about the claymore mines. I had to laugh though at how the Redshirts looked like they were jumping off of trampolines! LOL! Aren't claymores just exploding-frag throwers? :o)

I like the Latin too!

That is an intersting thought about how Widmore knows nothing about Locke, if he actually does know Mrs.H and then Ben,

Anonymous said...

@capcom: I think that's what Widmore's nightmares have been. He didn't know about Locke before, and now he's known about him all along. Well, since 1954.


80sPro said...

because their memories are altering now, just like Des'.

It will happen to all of them.

There is a tear in the space/time continuum. Mrs. Hawking needs to fix it!

Anonymous said...

First Anon/NetProphet speaking again -

Just reading 80sPro and the other posts about altering memories. But what about the "established history" we have been shown where Richard shows up at Locke's birth and other early points of his life? Doesn't this indicate that the time travel to the past always existed in one singular timeline so that Richard was aware of this? In other words, there is no alteration, because even "before" Locke went back in time to tell Richard about when and where he will be born, Richard is there. You may want to check into something call the "second time around fallacy" for more on this mindbending notion.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, NetProphet, thanks for clearing my head. Your post was so weird, I could hear Boone in my head, yet I wasn't certain of the nanny's name. I'm glad I'm not getting Sayid-like paranoia. Seriously, whew.

80sPro, well, I looked at it that when Abaddon was helping Locke, it wasn't as an "employee" of Oceanic, that he was just there, but you make a good point. So the question still remains, who is working for the right thing.

Richard Malkin put Claire and Fetal Aaron on Flight 815. Abaddon put Locke on 815. I think Aaron was supposed to be the one Jacob/Christian wanted on the Island.

Here's why I think Widmore/Abaddon are evil (well, REALLY evil): some of you know this already, for the rest, I have cerebral palsy. If I found myself on an Island where I could use both hands, walk, see out of my right eye, well, is it an act of God or the miracle of the Island? Yes, Rose reinforces Locke's belief, but--I hope I'm wording this correctly--the only way to trump Claire and Aaron was to get a crippled guy in a wheelchair to find that he could walk. So, yea, Widmore's bad, but he's at his worst when he is manipulating Locke's handicap through Abaddon. If Alpert knows of Locke's life off-Island, what would he think if Jacob's "appointed leader" was in a wheelchair for several years? Why isn't he surprised in 2004? Did Ben keep Locke's file from Alpert? My thoughts are that Alpert lost interest in Locke by the time he saw Ben in hippie form, yet certainly he would have seen the file.

Lastly, I'm thinking the way Des and Widmore are having dreams that are iceberg memories just now (i.e., "three years later") has to do with the radiation on the Island, just as Faraday couldn't recall meeting Desmond in 1995. I think the radiation in 1954 (both Jughead and whatever is in the yet-to-be-built Orchid) kept Widmore from remembering Locke. Just throwing that one out there, kind of a catch all explanation. Radiation forgetfulness.

Great thoughts, all.

Capcom said...

Oh wow, what if Widmore IS getting "new" memories? Great idea!

Blueheron over at TLC reminded us that there was a lot of Latin on the blast door map, so the Latin might not be that big of a stretch, in that the TPTB gave us a hint that SOMEone was using it on the island previously. I'd forgotten about that in all the hubbub of newly revealed island facts.

Good points Wayne. I always kind of got the idea that RA gave up on Locke because he wasn't ready, and took Ben as a second choice. But I still don't understand why they would want a knucklehead like Locke anyway! I would hate being under his screwball command.

Anonymous said...

Here's a wacky theory: What if Desmond and Penny's son, Charlie, is Charles Widmore? Now this may seem farfetched, but there may be proof in the episode. It seems that Lost will sometimes use another part of the show to foreshadow another reveal. In this episode, we are shown that the compass is given to Alpert by Locke. But Alpert gave Locke the compass in a previous episode. So the question would be, where did the compass come from? It is kind of like the whole chicken and egg dilemma. Which came first? Did the island just create the compass in order to accomplish its goals? With that said, the compass may be an allusion to Charles Widmore. The writers held out on announcing the child's name until the end of the show. They also may be masking his true identity by calling him 'Charlie' as opposed to 'Charles' in an apparent wink-wink to the now deceased Charlie. The writers may be trying to deceive us into thinking that the child is merely named in Charlie's memory. (Tear!) But what if their son is the young Charles Widmore? We still do not know Widmore's true origins. In this case Desmond would be Locke. In order for the island to get Desmond to the island, Widmore would have to be created. Widmore could be the mechanism to get Desmond to the island. I could go on about this but I will leave that to the show. This is probably just a wacky theory but then again so is the compass. And I thought that both topics should be addressed for discussion. whatdo you think?


80sPro said...

I think that is too much for me to think - unless I drink a whole bottle of wine first!!!

But you know what? Anything is possible. It would be absolutely cracked - but hey, so has other stuff been!

Thanks for liking my revelation about memories. It just suddenly occurred to me, and honestly it is the first viable theory about Lost I have ever had. But it occurred to me that suddenly Des remembered something. So now suddenly other people will too. So there HAVE to be a certain amount of people who have pre-knowledge about the history now. HAS to be.

So why can't people be the product of some of this interweaving? Absolutely, they can, and are. We just don't know whom as yet!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

80sPro and others: I use the term iceberg memories in my fiction in that there is a little bit above water (consciousness) yet quite a bit more that stays submerged. Kind of fits with what you said--good call, by the way!--about certain memories starting to surface. Maybe in the case of Hurley, it not dreams but the manifestations he saw of Charlie and (maybe) Mr. Eko.

Anonymous said...

CharlieDontSurf: Holy $*@&, you are making my brain hurt.

I don't know if I agree with you. I might go along with the idea that little Charlie is 'The' Charlie, but looking into Charlie Pace's childhood that we know of, he was not adopted, as would have to be the case if that theory were true (assuming Penny and Des both die and Charlie is raised by someone else).

Also, looking back at the 'Charlotte is Daniel Faraday's daughter' theory, I checked the transcripts and Daniel says he is IN love with the woman next to him, so that would be kind of sick. I am going to have to nix that idea. I do however think they may be brother and sister but aren't aware of it. ? ? ? (which would also be sick)

From: lockerocks

Sasquatch said...

I found it interesting that the Others were using claymore mines in 1954, given that the U.S. military didn't adopt them until 1960-61. Development on them dates back to World War II, but the ones seen in the show had the distinctive "Front Toward Enemy" text on them, making them U.S. military ordnance.

Just making conversation...


Anonymous said...

I have thought that farraday and Lewis also are brother and sister. Recall when Farraday met the losties he introduces himself to J ack saying, " I'm Daniel Farraday and I'm here to rescue you.", recalling Luke and Leah from Star Wars.

Capcom said...

Interesting Sasquatch! There were some early versions of directional antipersonnel mines then (but "barely more than a prototype" as per Wiki) but according to Wiki the warning directional labels didn't get put on till later, so the ones that the Army would have in the show probably wouldn't have that text on them at that time. It looks like the props guys did overlook a few things regarding the mines. :-)

Bigmouth said... are rocking my world with your comments! We're beyond my ability to respond to everyone individually, but I wanted to touch upon few of the great points you've raised. First, SKID (no tie update?) among others, raises a really interesting possibility that Ellie is actually Faraday's mother. I suggested above that this would cut against her being Ms. Hawking because of what I thought was Ellie's Kiwi accent. But I was apparently mistaken about Ellie being from New Zealand. The original casting call specifies that her accent must be British. Also, as Landa perceptively notes, sending Desmond to Los Angeles gives him a plausible reason to hook up again with the O6. So, Eloise-Hawking Faraday it is!

That leads me to Maura's fascinating suggestion that Charles Widmore might be Daniel's father. That would certainly explain Widmore's generosity and my sense he's estranged from Dan's mother. It also would explain the antagonism between Ellie and Charles, who bickered like former lovers. Like April W, my gut tells me this likely won't pan out, but I won't be at all disappointed or surprised if it does. I put CharlieDontSurf's speculation about little Charlie being Charles Widmore in this same category -- improbable but still possible and undeniably cool! I have a feeling at least some of the "special" people on the show are themselves ontological paradoxes like the compass or Faraday's time machine settings.

I was also struck by Alex's point about the recurring conflict on the Island. In addition to one big causal loop, we also have an event loop whereby the Others defend "their" Island against invaders. (Tangential query: what makes the Others so sure the Island is "theirs"?) Their battle with the U.S. military in the 1950s seems to parallel the conflict with Keamy's team of commandos. I wonder if Smokey played a similarly decisive role in both. I also wonder if any Others ended up in the Temple during the fight with the U.S. military. On that note, I had the same thought as anonymous that the jughead might be in the Temple in an ironic nod to Beneath the Planet of the Apes!

Finally, I wanted to discuss provocative speculation, advanced by 80sPro and Capcom among others, that Desmond's new memory might be linked with Widmore's nightmares. I think the latter are more closely connected to prophetic dreams experienced by characters like Locke and Hurley. I'm guessing Ben and Ellie have these dreams, as well. By contrast, Desmond's new memory is something new and (so far as we know) unique because it's about remembering changes to the past. As Netprophet perceptively notes, most characters are simply living out the predestined effects of temporal causality loops. Only Desmond David Hume has the ability to create new memories by defying causality itself.

If anyone else possesses this talent, my bet is on Jacob. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn he's bathed in the Island's exotic energy just like Mr. Hume...

SKID said...


Regarding the tie: (since that seems to have become MY assigned cubicle here in the BIG show) :)

A few thoughts on the tie (followed by one other observation I need dissected)

1. I seriously cannot keep up with how many days that tie has been on now for sure. Are they even experiencing "DAYS"?!?

2. Suffice it to say, I am CONVINCED that the moment that the tie comes off will be a moment of unparallelled heroism or some other act of cosmic significance. I am planning a party for just that moment. (and for those who say the tie was off in his DHARMA disguise in the Orchid . . .look closely at a screenshot. I am convinced that it is on UNDER the shirt. I see a bulge. Did I say that out loud?)

3. I will even be momentarily satisfied if someone ELSE on the show references it. I mean seriously. It is almost becoming as big of an issue with me that NO one else has asked about it! (Sawyer for sure) I await this moment as well. Any wagers on who brings it up first?

4. It is the sole piece of LOST memorabilia I desire.

In other news:

-Now I KNOW that just because two people are the same race, that does not make them connected, but having said that, there WAS a bald black man in young Widmore's team who wielded a bow and arrow. ANY chance THIS could be Abaddon??? It DOES make sense that he would be in cahoots with Widmore and has known him for many years and would either work with or serve him in his desire to find the island again. Just a thought. Let's wait to see if they call him "Matt" next week. (Of course debunking this theory is that this guy (from last week's show) is younger and Abaddon did not appear to age from his visit with Locke at the hospital and his visit with Hurley making him more kin to Alpert but . . .

Now back to monitoring that tie.

machramm said...

SKID: I think it is possible that that was MA, but I have no evidence for the probabilty that it was him.

In a theory that I think someone in this forum put forth ealier this week (or at least implied), it may be that people either age much more slowly or don't age at all while on the island.

If this is true, Richard would simply have to limit his off-island time to stay "young".

So, by the same reasoning, all MA would have to do is stay on the island a lot in order to age more slowly than Whidmore.

Again, just theories, but a possible explamation for your postulate.

Anonymous said...

What if Charles Widmore is John Locke's Dad? If he found out that Locke was going to be born, went to investigate and met a young Emily before she got pregnant. Her mother does say "hes so much older than you" Widmore would have been about 26ish I would guess in 1956.

Anonymous said...

Didn't Richard indicate that the "hostiles" were pissed off that they had been fired by the US army, not nessisarily just that the US army had been on the island?

Capcom said...

Seriously Skid, you're comments about the tie from Sawyer?! The tie should be an official "Lost drinking game" point, so when the tie finally does come off, everyone guzzles! :-o I would bet that the tie was on underneath the uniform too!

Anon, could you maybe find that about them being fired in the transcript over at Lostpedia to confirm? That's very interesting!

80sPro said...

I'll guzzle! Sounds like fun to me!

Oh, yes, interesting possibilities. SOMEONE likely set that whole thing up for Locke to be born. Locke's self fulfilling prophecy - the guy might not even have been BORN if he didn't tell them about his own BIRTH!

That is why I have decided that right near the end we are going to learn that Sawyer is Jacob. And yet he doesn't even know it yet. It has to come around to that point - he has to go back in time to BECOME Jacob - and then that will be another new memory.

Jacob's cabin, by the way, doesn't disappear at all. People have been able to find it at times it jumps - which means that someone somewhere on the Island is able to control jumps. In the beginning - it seems like Richard doesn't know anything about the jumps, but by the time he meets up with Locke by the wreckage he does.

Not sure where I am going with that. But it just seems to me that like the whispers in the jungle, and Locke seeing "big Walt", some of the jumps have already occurred even before the tear in the space/time continuum (HOW I LOVE SCI FI!!!)

Lizzie said...

I'm pretty sure in the Season Previews there is a shot of Daniel wearing a plaid shirt...and no tie.

80sPro said...

From Buddy TV this morning (and some of what we've been discussing here too, the internet being the biggest harvester of ideas - or at least ideas being thought of by different people in different places, at the same time!). Courtesy John Kubicek:

"...this hasn’t been woven into the show yet, we know that Aaron’s father was Thomas, and that some of Thomas’ paintings were in Widmore’s office and home. Given that a mysterious client is doubtful of Kate’s relation to Aaron, this could easily be Charles Widmore, trying to get his grandson.

The fun thing about these four theories is what happens when they’re combined [all the Ellie and Eloise talk]. If all this is true, then Faraday and Penny are siblings while Desmond and Claire are Faraday’s siblings-in-law. It would also mean that Faraday, Desmond and Jack are all Aaron’s uncles.

It would make sense because, on Lost, family trees often combine. Christian Shephard was father to both Jack and Claire. John Locke’s father was the man who Sawyer named himself after. And Ben was Alex’s adoptive father. For the characters on Lost, it ain’t nothing but a family thing."

One of the more interesting things I've read from over there.

SKID said...


The only time I think he has been tieless was when we saw him in his home crying for no "apparent rerason" with his caretaker (whom we oddly never got a glimpse of)

She put a plaid blanket around him I think?? Anyhow, that shot from the previews (you referenced) MIGHT be a view back to that scene at some point.

As long as they make a big deal about him taking it off and using to save someone or kill someone I will be satisfied.

(Pretty sure that is a sentence I have NEVER typed before.)

80sPro said...

oooh, Skid, imagine if he had to kill someone with it.

Daniel's Tie: It's Many Uses

- as a rope to help someone get hoist themselves over the top of a cliff
- as a noose
- as a tourniquet
- as a sling
- to drag something
- as a leash for Vincent
- as a bandana
- as a muzzle
- to bind someone's hands.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

I vote that Sawyer makes a crack about it soon.

Interesting we've never seen the caregiver - anyone have a sound bite of her voice? She never sounded familiar and her general shape wasn't either....

lockerocks said...

Skid: I don't think that Abbadon is not aging like Richard. The time between his visit with Locke and his visit with Hurley couldn't have been more than 5-10 years and a man of his age wouldn't change in appearance all that much in that time frame. I do think it would be cool if the black guy on the island was him since he and Widmore are obviously connected.

Anon: I don't think it's plausible that Widmore is Locke's dad either. If that were true, why wouldn't Widmore have had any contact with Locke through the years if he knew Locke would end up on "his" island? It seems like Widmore would have at least made some kind of contact. When Ben showed the video of Widmore to Locke, Locke asked who he was indicating he had never seen him before. The only clue that could make your theory possible is Ben wanting Locke to kill his father. Maybe Ben was trying to find out if the "man from Tallahassee" really was Locke's dad or if Locke had another idea of who his father could be. Once Locke brought the dead "mfromT" to the camp, Ben realized Widmore was NOT his father so he had to show him the tape. The obvious connection here is the horrible relationships with their fathers that both Ben and Locke had, and since Ben killed his father it was a test of Locke's future leadership to see if he would do the same.

lockerocks said...

Skid: I don't think that Abbadon is not aging like Richard. The time between his visit with Locke and his visit with Hurley couldn't have been more than 5-10 years and a man of his age wouldn't change in appearance all that much in that time frame. I do think it would be cool if the black guy on the island was him since he and Widmore are obviously connected.

Anon: I don't think it's plausible that Widmore is Locke's dad either. If that were true, why wouldn't Widmore have had any contact with Locke through the years if he knew Locke would end up on "his" island? It seems like Widmore would have at least made some kind of contact. When Ben showed the video of Widmore to Locke, Locke asked who he was indicating he had never seen him before. The only clue that could make your theory possible is Ben wanting Locke to kill his father. Maybe Ben was trying to find out if the "man from Tallahassee" really was Locke's dad or if Locke had another idea of who his father could be. Once Locke brought the dead "mfromT" to the camp, Ben realized Widmore was NOT his father so he had to show him the tape. The obvious connection here is the horrible relationships with their fathers that both Ben and Locke had, and since Ben killed his father it was a test of Locke's future leadership to see if he would do the same.

Bigmouth said...

Interesting...I'm open to the idea that Abaddon is ageless like Richard. I think it would be wild if they were both on the Black Rock and resurrected by Smokey. But have we seen any clear evidence of this purported agelessness? Like lockerocks notes, he "walkabout" conversation with Locke wasn't that far in the past. I think it's more likely, as SKID suggests, that Abaddon was the black Other we glimpsed in Jughead. My problem with this is whether Abaddon is old enough for this to be the case -- assuming he's not ageless like Ricardus.

Anonymous said...

I think Alpert should replace Ryan Seacrest as the New Years Eve Guy


1. Richard: Nickname "Dick"
2. He already has a relationship with ABC
3. Who better to be associated with ANOTHER show involving the passage of time

and . . .

4. The previous Richard (Dick) is also ageless.

Case closed.

lockerocks said...

This is kind-of off the current subject line, but I wondered if anyone else has checked out I was looking at their character lists and they list everyone in one of the following categories: on island, off island/rescued, deceased, and missing/unknown. I noticed that they listed Jin in the missing/unknown category, though everyone else on the freighter was listed as deceased (even Michael. . . I guess the island was done with him). I wondered what you all thought about this theory that Jin is not really dead.

ellipsis said...

lockerocks: I like to think that Jin didn't actually die. Perhaps he jumped into the ocean and dove underwater to avoid the blast or attempt to live (I know I would've...)

the only problem here is that i would assume the freighter is way out of the "radius". (otherwise the helicopter would have gone poof too)

i think this may have been in the s4 finale commentary, but Damon or Carlton made a comment that suggested Jin wasn't for sure dead yet...

ahaha a bunch of rambling but in conclusion, i think he's still alive.

80sPro said...

My personal theory is that he somehow ended up floating back to the island at a different time (remember the doc), and ended up all hooked up with Ricardus (love that, BIG) And The Others. This is why I think one of the more wacky ideas is that HE is gonna end up being young Miles' daddy - 'cause we're all prepared for Miles to be a Hallowchang Kid. But only, he isn't.

My guess.

Aaron said...

Why would Alvar Hanso allow the military to use the island for nuclear testing? Maybe he didn't know about its properties yet? Maybe, since he was in weapons development, he suggested the island as a location, only to realize this was a bad idea and decide it would be the perfect location for Dharma?

lockerocks said...

ellipsis: I remember that comment from the producers too. I think it was something like, "Sun thinks Jin is dead". Hmmmmm . . . there is some hope!

Capcom said...

That would be a very interesting turn of events Aaron. Say, Alvar finds the island and decides to use it for the armament tests like you say. Then, he somehow realizes what a special place it is at the same time as hearing about the V.E., and it changes him 180' into a peaceful mogul who wants to use the island and his money for saving the world. Enter Widmore, Paik, the DI, Hostiles, (and all the other people trotting around the island that we've learned of) and then the whole thing goes to heckinnahandbakset. I can see it. :-)

80sPro said...

Paik - that's RIGHT!!! I forgot that connection. Wonder if Mr. Paik ever actually went to Los Islandus!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Last year I had posted that Paik was responsible for the heavy machinery (what his company deals in), for DI construction on the Island, but my thoughts now are that (since there is no real advancement in his backstory), whereas it is likely he gave DI the means to, i.e., build The Orchid with his machines & materials, his only purpose now is to watch what Sun does with her controling interest. Though, with the time-hopping, he might show, I just don't see him as any more than a guy who makes money sitting behind his desk and delegating others. He has the means, but now Sun has the power.

KoreAmBear said...

Interesting about Jacob being Sawyer (James). Jacob in the Bible was initially a con-man and his name is self-translated as "he deceives".

I love the Archie comic allusions to Jughead Jones (young Widmore was wearing the name Jones in his military uniform). Jughead Jones himself is an intriguing and cryptic character. I'm wondering if this is supposed to be Faraday -- someone mentioned Faraday saying "far from it" when asked if he is a Romeo (by Ellie) is equivalent to Jughead Jones not being too interested in ladies. Jughead Jones also has a special adventure where he is a Time Cop. Good stuff.

lisa (lost pezhead) said...

great recap!

SKID kills me with the tie stuff!! i'm still laughing...can you knit a tie?!

80sPro said...

I wanna talk about last night!!!! Ooooh, you left coast people!!! Time delays!!!!

JIN IS ALIVE!!! Anyone who truly knows and loves this show had to know it. HAD TO. It was just too easy to have him die. Now it complicates Sun's anger to have him still live. She's going to be very torn way down the road next season when she sees him - because she won't be justifiable homicidal anymore!

Oh, so many things! Of course Ben is behind the lawyer - but is Dan the lawyer ALSO Oceanic's lawyer? How is it that he's Ben AND Carole's lawyer????

So they are all there on the dock but Hurley. How's that gonna go?

Anonymous said...

havent read all the comments so maybe someone's already come to this conclusion :
Ms. hawkins is Farrafay's mom.