Wednesday, May 06, 2009

Thoughts on Follow the Leader...

Unfortunately, I don't have time for a full recap this week due to work obligations. I'm confident you all everybody will find plenty to talk about without my usual three-dot thoughts. I do, however, want to share one whackadoo speculation I have about the origins of Jacob, then expand briefly on the possibility I raised in my recap of the Variable that our Losties will paradoxically cause the Incident by trying to prevent it.

When Locke walks into camp with dinner, Richard is working on a ship in a bottle. My first thought was that Alpert's nifty craft project was a metaphor for the Island or maybe even the Black Rock. But then I remembered that Ship in a Bottle is the name of one of my favorite episodes of Star Trek: TNG. In it, a character from a holodeck simulation, Professor Moriarty, becomes self aware and engages in an elaborate ruse to transform himself into a real person.

I suspect that Jacob aims to do something similar. Let's say the Island is sentient like planet Solaris and creates avatars of the dead to communicate with the living. Jacob may be one such avatar who became self aware and seeks to exploit the Island to reincarnate himself physically. Perhaps that's why Zombie Christian now occupies the Cabin and speaks for Jacob -- the former is the Island's attempt to reassert control over itself using this new avatar.

In fact, if you really want to follow me down the Whackadoo Well, consider the possibility that Jacob is fictional just like Dr. Moriarty. The precedents of zombies like Christian and Yemi suggest that Jacob is someone deceased. But what if the Island's ghostly patriarch is really the product of so many people believing in his existence? Maybe the Jacob avatar popped out of the Island's magic box like Hurley's imaginary friend Dave did.

Many, myself included, have been struck by the seemingly circular origins of Jacob's influence on the Others. When Locke first invokes Jacob's name back in 1954, it's not entirely clear that anyone, including Richard, gets the reference. It's possible that Locke unwittingly planted the seeds of Jacob's legend himself. Like Richard's compass, therefore, Jacob may originally be one big ontological paradox birthed by the time loop we've witnessed.

I think the foregoing possibility has occurred to Locke, as well. John doubts that Ben has ever spoken with Jacob because he suspects Jacob is a hoax perpetrated by Ben to control the Others. That's why Locke is so adamant about taking the Others to see their leader. When John says he plans to kill Jacob, I think he expects to reveal the latter as a lie. What Locke forgets is that the Island is a place where even fiction can sometimes become reality.

Before closing, let me follow up briefly on my suggestion from last week that our Losties will cause the Incident by trying to prevent it. I'm increasingly convinced that the Island is itself the threat of human extinction predicted by the Valenzetti Equation. The DHARMA scientists are supposed to cause some cataclysmic -- perhaps even extinction level -- event by drilling into the Island's pocket of exotic energy at the Swan site.

Our Losties will change what's supposed to happen by substituting the less cataclysmic Incident in lieu of our total annhilation. But they will succeed mainly in delaying the inevitable, resulting in the button protocol, which will again threaten to destroy the world. Desmond will avert this threat by activating the Fail-Safe, but as I mentioned last week, I think Bram and Ilana's presence on the Island has already restarted the countdown to Armageddon.

All of this is building to the realization that the Island was never supposed to be on Earth. It crashed here long ago, whether from the future or the stars, disrupting the course of human destiny. No matter how many times someone saves the world, the change will only be temporary. As long as the Island remains on Earth, people will keep exploiting its miraculous properties, pushing us back on track for extinction.

I'll elaborate on this possibility in a subsequent post (hopefully in advance of the season finale) but I'm afraid that will have to be all for this recap. Like I said, no three-dot thoughts this week, so your own thoughts and reactions are particularly appreciated. As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


Capcom said...

This episode really blew me away.

I kind of like Eloise on the island. How the heck can Richard swim underwater in his fancy dress shoes? And why is he wearing fancy dress shoes?!

Locke seems to be still a major tool, and now he's a liar like Ben.

Loved the sub scenes, especially James and Juliet. Hated the preview spoilers. :-(

So, Jack has become Locke, Kate has become Jack, Locke has become Ben, Sayid is still the cavalry.

Hooray for the old tunnel theories! :-D

machramm said...

There were a ton of good one-liners in this ep. I really liked it. I think my favorite is Ben to Richard, "Why do you think I tried to kill him?".

I too like the 1977 Eloise, Capcom.

Richard lost some of his allure for me in this ep. He seems less all-knowing now. But I still want to know his story.

I was a bit confused by the Richard-giving-the-compass-to-Locke scene.

Things seem to be happening quickly.

Looking forward to the post, Big.

Anonymous said...

BAM! I was knocked down by two events - first it made tons of sense that Sawyer and Juliette would end up in the sub, the thoughts of a new, free life together, and even I felt the relief at leaving the island and all it's impending doom and destiny behind. Then comes Freckles...Oi! However, I agree with Capcom that the spoilers where they are obviously off the sub sort of took the wind out of my sails...

Then of Locke saying he is going to kill Jacob was a stunner. I cannot wait to find out what Locke actually knows, which seems to be more than Ben and Richard at this point...

This whole episode for me made me think for a minute this is the truest form of Postmodern commentary.

Have to turn things over in my mind and really looking forward to the blog Big to sort out my thoughts on where things are heading...


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I never get to see the next episode stuff because Chicago's ABC affiliate seems to think its better to shrink the screen down and self-promote. I saw the scenes, but it was like looking in a tiny box. Kinda hate this town.

This episode was self-propelled. Very much so, which is one of the reasons I wish they tried more No Flashback episodes.

@Capcom, Locke is Jack. Jack always lied, to himself mostly, to a certain extent. I don't think Locke lied to screw everyone over, I really think he needs to be in Jacob's rocking chair to do what needs to be done. Or, if time flips back to normal as Jack hopes, the only place Locke can be safe from going back to being crippled and denied his walkabout would be within the confines of Jacob's cabin. Maybe.

But, man, how can they finish this off in 43 minutes counting commercials?

3D said...

machramm said...

"There were a ton of good one-liners in this ep. I really liked it. I think my favorite is Ben to Richard, "Why do you think I tried to kill him?"."

Mine was this:

"You were in the Korean war?"

"There's... no... such.. thing."

::trying to look smart attempt::

3D said...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

"But, man, how can they finish this off in 43 minutes counting commercials?"

Easy, they finish it off in 86 minutes. (It's a 2-hour finale.)

Also, from reading interviews and stuff, I don't think much of anything is going to be finished off. It sounds like they're completely reinventing the show again and we're going to be left with 6 months of "WTF?!"

Lost and found said...

My 2 cents?
Locke becomes Jacob, the man orchestrating the loop.

Keep up the good work Biggie.
Your lost blog is always a great read and handy to help digest all the lost info.

mary said...

This episode was fantastic! Capcom you crack me up!
Obviously the Hurley scene was hysterical. Richard What's going on there? Sayid....damn boy ... gotta love you. Kate on the sub...dear lord does she have to mess that up? When are Rose/Benard/Vincent going to show up?

I also felt the whole exchange between Richard, Ben, Locke (or just two of them) had a lot of biblical references. John led "his" people like Moses did. There were other biblical references, but alas I havent' had my morning java yet.

Can't wait for the review BIG!
Agree...did not like the previews.

neaux said...

I honestly had flashbacks to playing Tomb Raider 1 on the playstation.

Those underwater scenes were freakin' me out.. get up for air quick!

80sPro said...

About Richard. Oh dear.

You said it best when you said that some of the mystique rubbed off about him, machramm.

BECAUSE - it seems now that all those highly "all knowing" mysterious things he has ever done through the years has been BECAUSE John Locke told him to. John's ALWAYS been the driving factor, just that we - and more importantly HE - did not know it yet.

So Richard IS clueless, as folks alluded to last week. I was holding out hope that he was keeping a lot of it under his hat. Turns out that really he just doesn't know. BUT - two things interest me greatly....

1 - what the heckers was he doing there with the "ship in a bottle" and was that "ship" Black Rock? Hmmm

2 - he saw them die....interesting.

Seems like he is the man with all the answers without any answers till he's given the answers. Kinda like us. Only ageless. Unlike us.

Yeah, still want to know who he is and what he does.

And I was mad as hell at Kate. And boy oh boy, since I like Sawyer more this season, I am fearful. Juliet's one dead bird. 'Cause he loves her.

Sayid rocks. I cheered out loud and then covered my mouth for fear of waking the wee ones! I love that guy. And his pecs.

Jack. What is in store for our resident floor-cleaning-doc?

Locke has gone too baddass. Gees. Seems like my hopes for Richard to be puppet master are moot, since it's most likely John Locke who is.

tsk. I want that 96 minutes and I want it now!

Jason said...

John Locke rules (again), he is back to season 1 form. Kate, as usual, dragged the scenes involving her down. What I wouldn't give to have her written off this show (poor Juliet, she's done).

Anonymous said...

Gina Marie--

I thought this episode was pointless. We didnt learn anything new. Considering that the season finale is next week, I thought they would at least answer one question--maybe flashback to Faradays time in Ann Arbor, tell us about Ricard, show the front of the statue, Bram and whats her face and whats in the metal case...something! We already knew John was going to go all "I'm your leader" on the others. We already knew Eloise was going to help Jack, we already knew Farady was dead, after all, dead is dead. I was very disappointed and wish there would've given us something to stress over for the next week. It was basically a filler episode and that kinda sucks. Just my opinion. But, Hurley was hilarious as usual!

JLes said...

Best line of the night (paraphrasing):

Sayid: "I've already changed the past, Jack. I shot and killed young Benjamin Linus."

Jack: "No you didn't. Kate and Sawyer brought him to the Others and they brought him back to life."

Sayid: (to Kate...long pause)"...Why did you do that?"

I thought last night was pretty awesome. A set-up-episode? Sure. Still great though. After last night I'm pretty convinced that the John Locke we're witnessing in 2007 is actually somebody else REINCARNATED in John Locke's body (remember the van anagram? Also Christian Sheppard and Vincent are reincarnations of SOMEONE). This line solidified that view in particular (paraphrasing transcripts yet):

Ben: "Wow John. This must be quite the outer-body experience for you, huh?"

John: "Something like that."

Capcom said...

LOL everyone, great comments!

I really like your Solaris theory Big, it could really work.

Yeah, my hopes were filled when Kate got shot -- my hopes were dashed when she wasn't. :-p

Richard's bimbosity is bugging me too, I'm just hoping that he's been dumb like a fox after all is said and done. But if so, the scripting wasn't really too good for his character, IMHO. Too soap-opera-like..."Huh? Whuh? Really?" :-p

This week's previews will be up on DarkUFO's spoiler section if you want to check it out Wayne. Just go there soon, before any other more invasive spoilers are put up later in the week.

I wonder if Rad shoots himself knowing that he put his own sorry self in the position of pushing the button for eternity, by being such a tool. Perhaps he also edited the Swan film so as to remove the part that was his fault, leaving only the ambiguous "Incident" reference? I forget what was in the msising part, I'll have to go back and check that out.

Anonymous said...

Who has the compass?

Think about it...

John gives it to Richard in the past. Richard gives it back to John in the present, just moments before time leaping John gives it back to Richard while present John watches. Right?

So if "present" John got the compass back from Richard, and "future" John (shot in leg) gives it to Richard as John (and Ben watch), does that mean that John no longer has the compass?

Or are there two compasses? (two timelines?)

Me lose brain.


Capcom said...

I've always wondered about the compass that Locke gave Sayid way back when, since this revolving compass thing began. Is it the same one? I have to check the image files on that one too, to see if they look similar.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Bigmouth pegged it beautifully, I think. We saw it in the scene where John tells Richard to go take the bullet from his time-flash self's leg. I'm still confused by how Richard then told Locke (in the opener) to take the compass because the next time they met, 1954, etc. But, there you go. I don't even need to rewatch "Jughead," I know Richard seemed to not get perky little ears when Locke mentioned Jacob by name. The only thing that makes Richard recall anything about the 77ers is Jughead itself. Sawyer, Jack, even Faraday (through his notes). If Jughead isn't mentioned, Richard has that addled look as he sips his tin cup of Grey Goose vodka. So, Locke gives him the compass and Jacob's name in 1954, as we recall, Richard never said, "Hey, there it is, I thought I lost it!" He accepts it, because Locke simply says he was supposed to give Richard the compass, words to that effect. Not Richard's OWN compass. Last night's title was a tell, also. We had Richard in two time periods, blindly (sort of) leading in 1977 and blindly (sort of) following in 2007. In 1954 the key phrase that Locke said was that Jacob had told him that he was their leader (meaning Locke). Then he was gone. I'll bet Widmore heard some of the conversation, and willingly stepped in to start in on the Ben-like "Jacob told me this..." stuff. There might have been to Ellie and Dan's 1954 conversation, then Ellie told Widmore and he claims the info came from Jacob. (Jacob said it would be OK if we poured concrete on it, etc). Is Jacob ever mentioned in any talks between Ben and Widmore? I don't know. Either way, they are both in on the joke.

I started thinking on how Richard and Faraday seemed fairly similar in how their minds worked, that Richard may need a jump start to recall day to day or week to week events. (Yet, in 2007, he knows John was gone three years, so someone is keeping track of things).

Big, here's a one-up on your wackidooness (though I'm pretty certain we'll never get an exact answer to Richard's life. What if there are two manifestations? Richard as the Island caretaker, if you will. Smokey/Christian/Vincent etc. as guy in the cabin everyone follows? Richard has a great way of speaking, so even Juliet's flashbacks of Mittelos mean nothing, he gets off the Island, yea, but I think he is Widmore's errand boy more than anything else. And then Ben's. There's something to Richard's not aging that makes me think he is another realization of the smoke monster. I've thought about this off and on, but it seems to make more sense if we realize that Widmore and then Ben manipulate the Others all along.

I'm fairly certain that we'll never know 100% because, like Gina Marie, I was mildly disappointed that we didn't get more of the Others, and after last night, I don't think we will. But the amount of action in the episode offset all of that.

And I really have to love that the Barracks were built over Jughead.

Greg Tramel said...

sorry to harp on these kinda things but they REALLY bug me, doc jensen asked what mysteries do we want solved and this is THE #1 for me in addition to wanting The Others complete backstory

look at they r at the end of mother and the e at the end of love

Karen's Lost Notebook Blogif the are production errors fine, just tell us

Greg Tramel said...

i MISSED this completely

sledgewebs lost stuffBUT shouldn't Daniel have born ALREADY?????

Anonymous said...

Hello All!

Going back to season 3...Juliet was branded/marked for killing one of the "others" do you think this play out to her demise this season? I hope not...

Kate really does annoy..after everything that has happened you still think things are impossible or crazy. Give me a break!! Thought she was shot and I was morbidly happy.

Locke is not really Locke...I think it is a manifestation of Jacob.

Richard, I had such high hopes that he had a clue and he seems just a dumbfounded about the island.

Again, No one seems to care about Rose, Benard or Vincent...Where are they??


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg, I'm not looking at the link (my dumb computer, I'll find it later), but I don't think we've heard that Eloise is Dan's birth-mom. They do have different last names, after all.

I popped back on because I was going to mention the tunnels, as Capcom did, which we've known about since the blast door map. And I think Locke simply gave Sayid his own compass, not the causal loop compass. After all, John had a suitcase filled with hunting knives, odds are he had camping gear and a compass, as well. Might've come with his backpack.

And, Greg, I don't think we'll get the answers to the Others pre-1974. (Again with my disdain for the ARGs, I suspect the seed was planted that the original Others were from the Black Rock and that we are just supposed to take that info and be happy). But I really would like to know why there was fighting in 1974, and, more importantly, their years after the Purge. I suppose 1977-1992 aren't that important, either. I wanted Richard flashbacks yesterday and yet, I was happy that there were no flashbacks at all.

Re: the notebook. Seemed like Faraday didn't put his name into the This Belongs To Fill In The Blank, either.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Gah. Going back to what Big said, and the Island being the cause of our extinction. That's what I meant about Richard being a kind of caretaker who never aged while the others did. And then Locke gave him a compass and mentioned Jacob and everything got crazy after that.

80sPro said...

Lantz - I am going to use your compass question whenever I talk about Lost and Richard...okay?

I read it out loud to my colleague and we killed ourselves laughing.

Thank you!

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, i hope your WRONG about no more Richard and The Others back stories

and yes it has not been 100% confirmed that Ellie and/or Widmore are Dan's bio paretns or for that matter that Widmore is Penny's bio dad (at least that my feeble mind remembers) but i'm leaning towards all are true

Greg Tramel said...

speaking of feeble minds i'm having a tough "time" wrapping around my brain the "scene where John tells Richard to go take the bullet from his time-flash self's leg"

i think it has been the most unique take on any time travel stuff we have seen so far

so correct me if i'm wrong but i think this was the only on island time-flash scene that was in the future after Ajira

Greg Tramel said...

0h wait that is NOT right we had the stay behinders being shot at by the Ajira's in the boats, right?

Greg Tramel said...

guess what i was trying to say is it was the only scene (John tells Richard to go take the bullet) that was in the future of the "present" on the island

KoreAmBear said...

Was Ellie prego in 1977? Didn't I hear Widmore saying to her "you can't do this in your condition" or something like that (right before they had the private pow wow)? But if Ellie was 40 in 1977 (Ellie was 17 in 1954), she couldn't be 49 when she shut down a 9 year old Danny Boy riffing on the piano -- in the piano scene she looks exactly the same as when she shot old beard Faraday.

KoreAmBear said...

Future of the present island? John was shot by Ethan when John went back to 2004, right? John, Ben and Richard are watching John suffer the bullet wound in 2007, right? Same thing the outrigger chasing the lefties (sawyer, juliet, Miles, Faraday) was in 2007, right?

I think I need to spend some time at the Santa Rosa Mental Institute.

One question from left field -- what was zombie/dream Yemi talking about to Eko when he said "these people are doing something really important" and therefore you must push the button. So this is a message from the smoke monster/island and so it's the Others that are the proponents or the Dharma folks (Since Dr. Change made a video about pushing the button every 108 minutes and Radzinksy did it too until he shot himself to the ceiling).

Greg Tramel said...

koreambear, i'm not sure what i'm trying to say exactly

they scene just threw me for a loop for some reason

i'll join you in the Santa Rosa Mental Institute

KoreAmBear said...

Hey doesn't BM's pic of Professor Moriarty remind of the actor playing C-Widdy? That is such a cool concept -- a fictional character trying to become organic life.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg and KoreAmBear, I'll reply because I left something out when I first mentioned it. The scene as we first saw it happen made me think Richard knew everything, after all, he had a first aid kit and knew John had been shot. It was 2004, in that window between Boone dying and then Ethan dying.
Another continuity blip? Changes because of the O6? It should be 2007, right?

But once I learned that Locke basically told Richard what to do, I realized Richard was "following the leader," and that he wasn't omnipresent.

Here's where it gets weird. Remember where Locke's leg hurts and then Boone climbs into the plane? What if the time flash washed over that moment, back in S1? Regardless of that, the new puzzle is not how did Richard know how to find and help Locke in the first episode this season, now it's how did LOCKE know to tell Richard to go help himself? Because Ethan shot Locke but they were in 2007, does this mean no one ages on the Island because there is lost time?

You guys would love "All You Zombies" by Robert Heinlein. I think its on Wiki, but the basic story is about a guy in a bar telling a story that involves time travel and sex changes. The guy is drowning his sorrows because he has just learned that he is his own mother and his own father. I can't explain it better than that.

This was a crazy scene, though. 2007 or 2004? The outrigger scene was 2007 for sure. Something is up though, because how does Richard know, after pulling the bullet from John's leg, that the next time they meet, Richard won't KNOW John. Locke had to have told Richard pretty much everything about the "whatever happened happened" period that he was a part of, the jumps from 2004 to 1954 while he, Richard, and Locke were watching in 2007. There's something here, because I can't believe the writers got this sloppy putting Ethan on the scene.

One thing about Jacob, and if he is real or not: who said the words HELLLLPP MEEEEEE to Locke when he and Ben went to the cabin?

KoreAmBear, I never really got the whole Yemi/Eko thing, maybe it was a metaphor for lost faith, but Eko's death just seemed rushed to me. One of my least favorite episodes.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Um, Locke, Richard, and Ben in 2007. What I meant to say.

Capcom said...

Hahahaha, "C-Widdy"!! X-D

My head is so messed up by all the shifting and compasses and circular junk, I'm just going to hang loose about that and hope that TPTB will sew it all together some day. Or, that you all will figure it out for me. :o)

I used to think that maybe Locke's leg was messed up at the plane the first time because of the time shift shooting as well, but then someone told me that when Locke hurt his leg there the first time, it was because of the trebuchet/catapult thingy backfiring on him when he and Boone were trying to open the Hatch. I never checked the episode to make sure if that was true or not.

Yeah, Eko's death was rushed because AAA wanted off the show ASAP. :-p

One thing that bugs me is how Richard says that he saw everyone die. If they died because of completing Dan's mission, why are people like Sun and Locke still on the island (if the plane was supposed to correct and not crash)? Or, they did truly die, but they died in a different way and TPTB are just throwing us off as usual. Sigh.

KoreAmBear said...

Oh yes Capcom, the first time Locke's leg was injured, it was because of the shrapnel from the hatch that lodged into his leg. Boone was freaking out because Locke didn't seem to really notice ("just a flesh wound").

KoreAmBear said...

Sorry, you're right, the shrapnel from the catapult as they were trying to bust up the hatch, not anything from the hatch.

justin said...

Did anyone else have a weird commercial towards the end of the show? There was some small pictures of random things; a graduation, a kangaroo, ect and then it said something like " just because you saw it does not mean it can;t be changed" and then it said what did you see?


KoreAmBear said...

Maybe I'll check it out. I barely watch commercials anymore because of DVR. I wonder how long the free ride is going to happen b/c you know one day sponsors are going to have to do something different -- they pay for commercials that would have been seen but for the DVR. It would suck if like on those sponsored internet video sites - you are forced to watch 30 seconds of a commercial before the programming starts -- the commerical sponsor assocation will likely try to get DVRs to work that way.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: Locke's leg and the trebuchet: I should really go back and look at transcripts, but the thing I mentioned was when Locke got all weirded out, and then later talked about the Island needing a sacrifice. That scene stood out for me because sometimes I experience stress-pain that I fight myself into not thinking is psychosomatic, and I really thought Locke was feeling phantom pain, that the Island really didn't want him climbing. He did get cut by the trebuchet's shards, but it was more like his whole leg went on him when they got to the plane, never mind being at the Hatch. He was able to walk from the Hatch OK, then got all spooky when they got to the plane.

It was a random thought I had, but it still leaves the difference in years as well as HOW Locke knows to take Ben & Richard to that scene. Do the three of them really walk through time?

@Capcom, I didn't know the actor who played Eko wanted to leave the show. A great way to go out though, beaten to death with a tree. We should be so lucky with Kate, ha ha.

Speaking of, she's on the sub?! Its like living in the real world that is Chicago and seeing Oprah on everything, giving out KFC coupons on her website and promoting books and diets. (I have nothing against the woman, but she is such a Kate!).

Well, they get off the sub, Hurley and gang are headed towards the beach which Sun and Richard and the other Others are on now, though trekking towards the cabin. Whatever happens, at least everyone seems to be on the beach...except for Jack.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Justin, I think the commercial is for an ABC show in the fall called FLASHBACK. Someone mentioned it in the comments of Big's last post.

Capcom said...

Heheh, which brings us back to your "On The Beach" reference Wayne. Um, I think that it was you.

And right, I believe that we are supposed to think that the island did not want Locke climbing up to the plane to get killed also.

It was kinda like the tree getting beaten by Eko. :-D

Wow, that Oprah KFC thing certainly turned out to be a fiasco, eh?

It's great reading the comments here afer a show, and very helpful!

Anonymous said...

Re: Daniel Faraday's age

I'm sorry, there's no way I'm going to believe that Faraday is like 5 years younger than Charlotte. If you're going to do a time travel season, you should probably pay attention to how old people are supposed to be.

Getting your quantum mechanics a little mixed up is fine, if not nessisary. But, f-ing up how old people are in a show that uses individual pasts and futures as the PRIMARY STORY TELLING DEVICE is inexcusable.

/end rant

Greg Tramel said...

i usually kinda ignore dates and ages BUT i need a timeline JUST for this season

was there a flash between the time ethan shot locke and richard took the bullet out the "1st" time around? even if we did not see a flash there could have been one that we were not shown

or maybe this (and the problem with dan not being born yet that we know of) is TPTB way of telling us to through the calendar bout the window on the island

Greg Tramel said...

let's start with square 1

(1) is it 1977 for Sawyer, Jack, Hrurley, Dan (maybe dead) et al?

(2) is it 2007 for Locke, Ben, Sun, Ilana, et all?

(3) is it 2009 for Penny & Desmond?

Greg Tramel said...

sorry it should have been THROW the calendar out

Greg Tramel said...

from lostpedia:

First shift: Between 2001-2002While climbing a hill, Locke sees the beechcraft crash. He goes to inspect the plane and is shot off the cliff by Ethan Rom. As Ethan prepares to kill Locke, the sky lights up again.

Second shift: Day 4, 2007

Locke notices that Ethan is gone. He hides by the burnt beechcraft to check his wound. Richard Alpert finds Locke and tends to Locke's bullet wound. He gives Locke a compass that he says Locke must return to him in another time.

Greg Tramel said...

and it may be 2008 for Penny & Desmond but the point being BOTH Ajira groups went BACK in time

Anonymous said...

So if Sawyer goes back to america in '77 would that make him about Cooper's age in 2004 ?? Once a con-man always a con-man. ( Cooper in The Brig (paraphrasing) : "Yeah I was called Sawyer once ... I was young and Huck Finn was taken" ... would this line of thinking make this scene technically a suicide ? )


Greg Tramel said...

interesting, that sounds kinda like the All You Zombies story wayne mentioned

Jim LeFleur being James Ford's father

but i'm with capcom et al, i WISH i had not seen the coming next week promo

80sPro said...

Lee ---- nahhhhhhh

you are NOT saying that Sawyer ends up being Cooper.....noooooo.

I am confused. You are confusing me. Date here date there date everywhere. Miles is Miles' own Daddy. Faraday is aging backwards or a very old 31. (WAS a child prodigy). Hallochangaroni. Yikes.

Kinda like how LOCKE the bastage is creating/crafting/manipulating this ENTIRE THING!!! That confuses me.

Capcom - tell me more about TripleA wanting to leave!

And KABear - that is funny with the CWiddy or the PWiddy or the XWiddy thing. Love it.

I. Am. Confused.

Capcom said...

LOL, you'se guys crack me up!

I really hope that Sawyer is not old man Sawyer, wow. Yeah, then that would be a weird kind of suicide. We have to make up a word for time-warp-pre-self-suicide. Temporocide? I was thinking about what J and J could do if they went back to The World where they would already be, and they could just change their names and be other people. Even though that would be totally WEIRD. If I did that, I'd move to where little me was and make sure that I knew a bunch of things about life before certain things happened to me! :-o

I'd have to agree with that, Anon. Davies is 40 I think, and he can pass for younger than that, but.... In a show like this where understanding certain details is imperative to following the show, things have got to stay consistent at some point. Especially since TPTB have said that they don't want to make us feel as if nothing is dependable in the story and that any story element that we know can change at any time.

80spro, all I can remember (boy, season 3 seems SO far away now!) AAA just decided that he didn't want to be tied down to the show anymore, so they agreed to write him out. I think at that point I heard that actors' contracts for this show were seasonal, so he wasn't breaching anything and there were no hard feelings about it. ??? Not sure about my memory there.

Chicagomike said...

It may be a little to out there for network TV, but what if the entire show is based around a statement that the island and the people involved are a large Ontological Paradox.

Everyone on the island is connected in someway because they have been lead, born, or brought to the island by folks time traveling back to try and "keep things on track".

It leads to an interesting statement on Fate vs. Freewill. When was the compass created? What is Fate? Is it the path that leads us to where we are "suppose" to go. i.e. Locke had to give the compass back to himself so he can give it to Richard b/c this already "happened". Is giving himself the compass through Richard his "fate".

If we all live in a large Ontological Paradox. Then fate is this path that must happen to keep the cycle going.

Capcom said...

Neat, Chicagomike! I just looked that up ( and it mentions how in "Somewhere In Time" Reeves takes a watch from an old lady and gives it to her younger self in the past. I'd forgotten about that. It's the same thing as our compass...kinda. :-) Also, in sampling this paradox in an episode of "Dexter's Lab" it says, "...When Dexter notices that this paradox is too confusing, he decides to ignore it and goes to eat lunch." Good solution. X-D

Greg Tramel said...


KevJones said...

Can I just say I am rarely as entertained/captivated by anything as much as I am by the conversations on here? It really doesn't get any better than this.

Big I'm not so sure that Jacob is a product of Locke's dabbling in different time periods, he does claim to have seen and heard him, also who was the guy that Hurley saw in the cabin of the window in S4? I'm gonna pop the DVD in for a freeze frame after I'm done here at work, but does anyone have any ideas?

Wayne's comment about AllYou Zombies reminded me of Tom Arnold in "The Stupids" singing "I'm
My own Grandpa" although that's probably the dumbest thing to reference haha.

Go see Star Trek, it's awesome. Please keep in mind I'm 22 and have never been exposed to Star Trek before but I saw the Lindelof/Abrams version last night and couldn't help but have a big goofy smile through the whole thing. It's fun and made me think of one thing the rest of the night: "Ask me more questions about time travel!" haha

End Transmission

Chicagomike said...

What if, similar to the Matrix Lost is based on the theory that we are all in a Ontological Paradox. Instead of living in a computer program, mankind lives out a giant Ontological Paradox.

Some characters on Lost are aware of this fact. However, the incident or something else on the island has altered the timeline leaving open the possibility that the world's Ontological Paradox loop may not be closed. Therefore, "God help us all" if we do not help people "get where they need to be".

Greg Tramel said...

TOTALLY off subject but i am talking to someone on the other line about new TV shows starting this summer, these look intresting:

The Listener centers on Toby Logan (Craig Olejnik, "The Timekeeper"), a 25-year-old paramedic who has a big secret -- he's a telepath.

Meteor, two massive rocks, tumbling debris older than the solar system itself, collide in space. The course has been altered and the target is Earth.

The Storm, made history with "weather creation" technology

Greg Tramel said...

Ontological Paradox!! VERY VERY interesting and plausible

Chicagomike said...

Jacob may been a creation of people working to keep things in "order". For all we know, Jacob could be a future version of Locke time traveled back to "help people get where they are suppose to go".

When someone says "Jacob" or the "island" wants something to happen. It could be a reference to a statement that whatever "it" was "it" has to happen to keep the world on the proper path to close the Ontological Paradox loop.

Greg Tramel said...

or Jacob is not just 1 "person" but a collection of lost souls/entities including the whisperers keeping us on track (or at least TRYING to)

Chicagomike said...

"Remember Birthdays"

If you were aware that the world is a giant cyclical Ontological Paradox, you wouldn't exactly celebrate birthdays b/c you would be aware that they happen over and over again through every pass timeline pass through the loop.

Richard, and some of the Others may be special people who for one reason or another found the island and been exposed to the world's Ontological Paradox similarly to the characters of the Matrix.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, birthdays, and calendars for that matter, are irrelevant on the island for our Neo postmodern losties

Greg Tramel said...

metaphysically speaking

JLes said...

Loving this thought ChicagoMike, but wouldn't that assume then that we've seen several different iterations of Richard Alpert?

B/c if he was just going around and around in a time loop, he should still age and retain memories of the past...but if he started over each time (rendering birthdays irrelevant) wouldn't he lose his memories?

Richard has seemed pretty clueless the last few, I think that's possible.

Greg Tramel said...

if we have been around the block as much as richard we wouildn't remember much either, maybe that's how i "lost" my memory

Greg Tramel said...

"age by any nonzero amount at each cycle"

Capcom said...

Heheh, reading the Wiki examples further, someone already has the episode online, damm they're quick! "In the Lost episode "Because You Left," Richard Alpert gives John Locke a compass and says that Locke should give this compass to Richard the next time they meet, as Richard will not recognize him. In "Jughead," Locke travels back in time to 1954, meets Richard, and gives him the compass. When Richard is skeptical Locke is from the future, Locke tells Richard where Locke himself will be born in two years and to come visit him; this occurs several episodes earlier in flashbacks in the episode "Cabin Fever." However, this paradox becomes even more complicated when it is revealed in "Follow the Leader" that Richard was instructed to give the compass to Locke by Locke himself, meaning that not only is the compass an ontological paradox, but the act of knowing who to give the compass to is a paradox as well." :-o

Those new shows sound neat! Where can we chat them up when they air?! :-D

Maybe the physical properties of the island and what makes it special are exactly what causes this paradox? That is, once you ever come in contact with it, you are destined to be in contact with it forever. That's why you "have" to return and once you've been there, you're destined to do whatever nees to be done on it. ???

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i saw that lost reference capcom, somebody is a busy beaver predestination paradox is interesting as well

Greg Tramel said...

physical properties of the island change ur dna which makes you miserable if you don't live on the island

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, yeah, kinda hard not to make an on the beach" reference with the show, I almost did type pun not intended.

Ontological paradox and predestination paradox (AKA causal loop) go almost hand in hand. Also, and someone mentioned it here, the first is called the Bootstrap paradox, after the Heinlein story story "By His Bootstraps," and by the way, in the Zombie story, the guy is his own mom, dad, son, daughter and somewhere along the way he kidnaps himself. I have the anthology somewhere (Robert Silverberg edited several very good time travel anthologies). Heinlein wrote STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, which was also the name of the Jack-centric episode explaining how he got his tattoos in Phuket.

And yes, there was a flash after Locke was shot in 2004. Because Locke saw it and Ethan didn't react. Doh. Plus, the Beechcraft was on the ground, Locke snagged something inside to make a tournaquit. So, at the time Locke told Richard to fix younger Locke up, during that same time flash the two outriggers were shooting it out. Sorry to confuse Greg and KoreAmBear (and anyone else). But Lazarus Locke is being fed information from somewhere, because he gave Richard a crapload of details including the fact that they would next meet in 1954. What is it called when two people are involved with the spoken word information (as opposed to, say, an equation that is written down)? Locke has created that loop but Richard is now part of it, though Richard could really just be one small arc of that loop. Yet, if it a causal loop, WHEN in that cycle did Locke know to tell Richard they would next meet in 1954 as strangers? Did this particular loop get started because Locke was ressurrected, or was his death and resurrection part of an even bigger causal loop? (My pet theory is that 1977-2007 has been reruning, in various forms, for a long time, and LOST is just the current attempt to get to the desired result). This adds up with Big's post that the DI and Eloise are only postponing the inevitable, though I would add that have delayed it more than once, and may do so again by show's end, if the result isn't exact.

Desmond called the Island a snowglobe. What do you do to a snowglobe? You shake it, let the snow settle, then shake it again. And let the snow settle again. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Re: the ages, I mentioned this before. In real life Yun Kim is 34, Sun was portrayed as being 24 in 2004. So Kim was 29 in 2004. You can't really go by how people look in real life. I'm 50 in September. People say I look like I'm 40. Yet, I've pretty much looked like I was 40 since I was 25. Seriously, Faraday looked young with the long hair, but anyone screwed up in his head by time experiments is going to look older than he truly is. Which kind of makes Dan's life even more tragic.

@Chicagomike, it seems as if there are increasing numbers of causal loops since, well, at least since the situation with the compass. I've mentioned the O6 being the Numbers, but last year Big put forth the theory that the O6 are the Island's Constant. So if the Island is a paradox, does that make the O6 being there between 1977-2007 the only part of that paradox that is important? I suspect that Sun being in 2007 is simply a plot device, but she might have a reason for being with Locke and the others with the DI for similar reasons. It will be interesting to see what they leave us with during the break. I'm clueless, now that we've had the time skips, as to what can still surprise us. I'm guessing the cliffhanger will be a glimpse of what is in the shadow of the statue.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@greg and capcom, you guys type too darn fast.

Chicagomike said...

The more I think about it I believe the general store line of the show revolves around time travel and life as causal loop. Looking at life through the lens of a causal loop puts a very interesting perspective on the idea of fate vs free will.

I still like the idea when you travel back in time you do not age until you catch up to the time of your time jump. I think this explains Richards agelessness. He is the oldest person who is from the farthest point in the future. Maybe even the last person to time jump and reset the casual loop before the world ended.

What is everyone's thoughts on who are the "bad" guys and who are the "good" guys. It seems to me to be clear that Eloise and Charles are working for "good" against Ben and Richard.

Each is working to influence time in a particular direction. There must be some need for each other in both versions of time that they are trying to see play out. Hence, Ben not killing Charles in his bedroom.

Also, there must be a path that leads to world destruction that they are both trying to avoid. Hence, Eloise working with Ben to get the O6 back to the island.

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, so maybe Des is the only one that can shake the snowglobe

actually it was his "see you in another life brotha" that got me hooked on Lost

but i have LOTS of typos

like i've said before age is kinda meaningless to me in real life and lost life

i'm 50 Oct 2010 BUT i went to the movies last month and they gave me an automatic (63+) sr discount, i wondered why it was so cheap but figured it out when i sat down to watch the movie

Greg Tramel said...

chicagomike (do u live near wayne)yeah,casual loop is an EXCELLENT solution to RA's unaging

determining who's bad and good is as tricky as trying to figure out the supposed ages and timelines

i would be tempted to say they are all "bad" for various reasons and the only good guy is desmond *(except i guess his real life debunks that, lol)

Chicagomike said...

Desmond doesn't seem that important to the folks in the "know", Ben, Richard, Eloise, Charles. However, they are all very interested in Locke.

I believe Locke is the key to something very important in the future that those in the "know" are aware of and Eloise & Charles want to protect. As well as the island via the smoke monster's warning to Ben.

However, Ben wants to avoid hence his murder of Locke.

Chicagomike said...

My roommate believes the true main character is Jack. He's view is that the whole show is a statement on fate vs free will and Jack is the main character of the show. We what his struggle and progression through understanding of fate vs free will with Locke being the main catalyst for Jack's journey.

Capcom said...

Haha Wayne, I took 2 years of typing in high school. :-p

I definitely like the idea of Richard being so much farther from the future! ("Uh, do I know you? I've only met 9 trillion people in my long life, it's hard to remember") And not aging until you catch up with yourself is great. Were TPTB hinting at that with James and Juliet going back to The World in 1977? Hmm.

Greg Tramel said...

jack opening his eye(pun sorta intended)IS the 1st thing we see

Des seems pretty important to Ellie and Widmore or maybe rather Ellie vs Widmore

Chicagomike said...


I don't know. Eloise told Penny that she is sorry that he got "mixed up" in something. Which leads me to believe he is not a major player in her eyes.

KoreAmBear said...

@ChicagoMike - how about that weird/sarcastic comment by Ben to Richard in a previous ep. that Ben was surprised that Richard remembered Ben's b-day?

Biggy -- no riff on the whole Peter Pan allusion to "Follow the Leader"? Funny how now I am reading my 5 year old daughter's books because of LOST. So far I've read The Little Prince and read her Peter Pan last night -- with ulterior LOST easter egg finding motives. These stories have a whole different meaning to me now, LOL.

I was fascinated by things like the Follow the Leader game (Locke and the Others) they played, Tinker Bell setting up Wendy by disclosing their secret location to Captain Hook (Sawyer and Razinsky?), and of course the obvious, Lost Boys. Good stuff.

What the heck are we going to be doing once the final ep. happens and the comment period is over? Talk about Manny Ramirez (and I'm a Dodger fan)? *sigh*

Greg Tramel said...

chicagomike, AH! YES! GOOD POINT! your young memory is much better than mine

Greg Tramel said...

koreambear, don't forget to throw alice in wonderland in your readings

Capcom said...

I guess that there might be no reason to celebrate your birthday if you're from the future and technically you haven't been born yet. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

capcom, u just made my head spin

JLes said...

Why do you guys think Richard Alpert was all hippie'd out in the early 1970s when he met young Ben Linus and his live-rabbit bag in the woods?

We know that he clearly preferred Armani Exchange and the Long Island club scene in 1954, 1977, and 2007....yet, he has a momentary identity crisis along the way.

Midlife crisis?

The Dead toured The Island in the 70s?

Maybe a Geronimo Jackson show?

Chicagomike said...


Great point. Say Richard jumped back in time 100 years, he wouldn't really have a "birthday" until he caught up to the time in which he time traveled back.

Chicagomike said...


Maybe Ben ran into the "original" Richard, and the one we have seen in other scenes is the Richard that has traveled back from the future.

Chicagomike said...

I don't understand how all the talk of "once you leave the island won't let you come back, etc". It's obvious now that Eloise knows how to find windows to the island. If Charles was so hell bent on finding it, why didn't he just use Eloise?

And why was Ben able to come back after leaving via the wheel?

KoreAmBear said...

Seems that C-Widdy did the fake 815 crash scene to throw off Bram and Ilana and to trick Danny, Miles, Charlotte and others, that his mission was to find the island and they could help him. I think C-Widdy knows exactly how to get back, but the freighter mission was to get Danny and others to go and prevent the extinction of the world. Something like that. Or not.

Greg Tramel said...

maybe the final scene will be with EVERYBODY back on the island for a Geronimo Jackson reunion tour

yeah, it is obviously possible to travel to and from the island several different ways, maybe The Others just don't want Widmore, Ellie or Ben back on the island but did want Locke back (or so they THOUGHT)

Chicagomike said...

Yeah, I expect Bram and Ilana will play a major role in the season finale. I would also bet that their large case contains the internal pieces of the bomb.

Although its not really clear how the bomb wound up in the case on hydra island. Was that case they have part of the flight or already on the island?

Capcom said...

Maybe you just can't come back if you've left the island for punishment. Or popped out abnormally with the FDW. ???

Jles, that has been bugging me as well. When RA met Bennie, he had an emboidered shirt on that was not tattered, just folky looking. And, the long hair. So as you said, in between all the Armani, he jumps into the hippie duds momentarily. Even when he met Sawyer during the recent Bennie times, he had the modern clothes on. Maybe it's just something that TPTB changed in the costume department, and we're not supposed to think about it.

I wish that TPTB would give us a list of things that we're not supposed to think about, that would help a great deal.

Greg Tramel said...

capcom, TPTB giving us a list, yeah right! maybe jacob will give us a list

The Others do like to play dressup, maybe what RA aka Ra had on when Ben meets him for the 1st time is a costume

Chicagomike said...

The number one thing that bothers me about LOST is that the main characters never as Juliet and questions. Why did some people get kidnapped and others left on the beach? Who the F is Richard? When did you learn Latin, why? What was your trail all about? Who are the "others", and how did they get on the island? etc.

Chicagomike said...

typo: meant "...never ASK juliet ANY questions..."

Greg Tramel said...

i know what u mean, i assume at least LaFleur asked her all those questions but we just were not shown that part

KoreAmBear said...

Where does RA get his clothes, on his trips to Portland? It's part of his per diem for Mittelos? Why isn't anyone else dressed as fabulously metrosexual as he is?

And where can I get that Dharma brand light polo jacket that Dr. Chang had on when confronting Hurley, Miles and Jin about Hurley being a Korean War Veteran?

On a serious note -- where can I get a die cast model replica of the light blue VW Bus circa 1977 -- like the kind that the people on LOST Untangled have? I want to have that as part of my office background. As Jacob said, "heeeelllp meeeee!"

Capcom said...

Koreambear, there must be some model hobby kits that make the VW bus, it's a classic! And if it's not blue, you can spraypaint the parts before you put them together. And of course, you'll have to paint the DI logo on the front, or make a little plaque that you can glue to the front. Now you're making me want to build one! :-)

Yes, the Losties have a walking-talking DI encyclopedia right there, and they never ask her any questions! I know that TPTB don't want us to know certain things, but they could at least have them ask her and then change scenes so that it will at least look like they're actually intelligent enough to think of picking her brain for info.

Capcom said...

If you've got some Euros handy:

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I think I'll do a Greg Tramel and just do quick posts because of my only being able to use one finger to type. Next time.

@Capcom, one of the things on the list the producers would give us to ignore is the ARGs, BAD TWIN, etc., ha ha ha. Fun stuff, but I think they tossed TOO muchg info, yet at the same time, in 2004-5, who'd have thought LOST would be scrutinized so? That's why I mentioned another Juliet-centric episode. Though an Ilana-centric one could be feasible.

I was thinking about hippie Richard. Aside from the long cousin Jessie from Full House hair, now that we know at least one tunnel entrance is underwater, what if he had that look because he had been soaking wet as he walked over to meet young Ben? He did have a washed up pirate thing going?

@KoreAmBear, a metrosexual pirate? Maybe they could put Johnny Depp in PIRATES OF MARINA DEL REY? Go to a comic shop and flip through a copy of PREVIEWS, the back end has merchandise, not books. Any time there is new LOST stuff offered, it will be listed, there's a ton of stuff for the STAR TREK film, TIBERIUS and REDSHIRT cologne (I forget the tagline, but its funny as hell). This is how my three nieces bought me The Hatch for (God)Father's Day last year, Ironically, the figure of Kate keeps falling off a rock and into the ladder.

@Greg I'm in Burbank, about a three minute walk from Chicago's city limits going south.

@Chicagomike, Jack might be the central figure, but the opening scene (not counting the mobisode with Christian and Vincent), has Jack opening his eye. Another of the look up, lift up, leap of faith metaphors we've seen. I think the main character (if there is only one) depends on the viewer's beliefs re: faith and science. Or both.

Re: Desmond's importance, I actually find it interesting that even Penny seems so insignificant, like Sun being in 2007, more a plot device than anything else. Perhaps Des is less important now that he has performed his main role of pushing the button. And if the Others truly did not know about the Swan (as Ben said at some point), do Ben and Richard even know of Desmond? I think we can add Brother Campbell from the monastery to the mix, there was that photo of him and Eloise.

In the first episode, Ilana goes into Ben's workplace on Hydra, she surprises Ceasar there, with Faraday's map and cadging that sawed-off shotgun. Was the crate in Ben's office? I'm guessing it was on the plane, but they did make a big show of Ben's joint.

That's a great theory on Richard being from the future and would certainly explain his Faraday moments. I'd bet I could make a bundle of Other money playing three card monte with RA. Though, knowing how I shuffle, I'd probably lose.

Enjoy the coming weekend, everyone. Hopefully Big and PoohBear will stop by again. As always, great comments. This place is the exact opposite of the anger mgmt group where Locke met Helen#2.

Greg Tramel said...

STILL reeling from Locke instructing Richard to help Locke, even after we figured out the flashes

so i have something i want y'all to work on debunking (or not)

let's just say we, the viewers, are in 2008 and Penny & Des are in the same time as us, the viewers, in 2008

we view Locke#2 telling Richard to help Locke#1 in the exact same time as Locke#1 getting helped by Richard in 2007

the question to debunk (or not):

is the island ALWAYS a year behind the current world that Des and Penny and the viewers are in now, being 2008?

take your time, i'm going out into the "real" world, LOL, and won't be back until late tonight

Bigmouth said...

A few quick thoughts in reply to your comments. First, Chicagomike mentions the provocative possibility that the world is an ontological paradox like Richard's compass (and possibly Richard). Interestingly, Princeton Astrophysicist J. Richard Gott believes that such a causal loop may explain the creation of our universe. I've previously cited Gott's possible influence on the show given his extensive writings on time travel, causal loops, and doomsday equations, all of which are relevant to Lost.

Second, Wayne mentioned All You Zombies, which provides an excellent illustration of ontological paradox. If I remember correctly, Kip Thorne actually uses this story to illustrate some of the paradoxes of time travel in Black Holes and Time Warps. Of particular interest, the main character of All You Zombies eventually joins the Time Corps., whose symbol is an Ouroboros snake, just like Ms. Hawking's brooch in Flashes Before Your Eyes.

Third, Greg Tramel mentions predestination paradox, wherein time travel simply effectuates the past, instead of changing it. I think the general rule of time travel on Lost is that only predestination paradoxes are allowed. Any effort to change things will trigger course correction to ensure that whatever happened still happens. BUT -- and this is the key -- course correction only occurs for events that are supposed to happen. Desmond activating the Fail-Safe and our Losties causing the Incident aren't supposed to happen, so the causal chains leading up to these events must be actively preserved -- one can't just count on course correction.

Finally, speaking of the Incident, I had a brainstorm about how they might use the Jughead to neutralize the electromagnetic energy without destroying the Island. A hydrogen bomb uses a small fission bomb as a trigger to ignite the fusion reaction that creates the explosion. I'll bet Daniel's plan is to destonate the fission trigger, generating an electromagnetic pulse that will neutralize the pocket of electromagnetism.

Capcom said...

GT, digging deep within the timeline archives of our official guesstimaters at Lostpedia I found this: "In January of 2008, flight 316 departed from LAX in Los Angeles, California bound for Guam...Ten hours into the flight, the airplane began to experience heavy turbulence and a flash of bright light engulfed the plane sending them back in time, some to 2007, some to 1977..."

Their full post-return entry goes into more details:

So it seems as if you are correct in saying that Des and Pen are in 2008; Locke, Sun, Frank, etc., are in 2007; and the rest of 316 and the LBs are in 1977. The big question really is, why did some of 316 go back to 2007 and not stay in 2008, or of course, why they didn't also go back to 1977??

BTW, when I wished that TPTB would tell us what not to think about, I meant show stuff like what the quarantine was about, what was Claire's implant, what did Des do in the Army to get him in the brig, BDM details, stuff like that which may never be explained so we might as well just quit spending braintime on it and concentrate on the other details. :-)

FWIW, I'm in the process of analyzing Dan's latest notebook images, and hope to have something up soon on my Lost Science blog. For now FYI, one of the equation points seems to come from theories of "very small" black holes (Chang's pinholes???) and also relate to the Kerr metric again.

P.S. Big, how does one detonate a fission trigger without the proper electronics attached? Could there be a timed remote detinator on Jughead, like when a bomb is dropped to detonate over the target area while it's still dropping?

Capcom said...

P.S.S., that's assuming that Jughead is what it looked like, a bomb mounted on a test stand that would be triggered remotely, not like a regular bomb with a physical altitude or impact trigger attached. :-)

Bigmouth said...

Capcom: Whoah...I had no idea that Ajira 316 went back in time, as well. Great catch!

As for how they detonate the fission trigger, I suppose they'll have to do so manually. I was just reading an anecdote on-line about how someone in th USAF figured out how to set off a nuke with a simple Ohmmeter. I'll bet Sayid knows how to do so.

Uh oh...

Bigmouth said...

Whoops...I meant to say, great catch Capcom and Greg Tramel!

Capcom said...

Wow, an ohmmeter? Jeez, I feel a little less safe in the world now. :-o

For sure, Sayid can do that! X-D He'll do it with his ninja ankles no doubt, heheh.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: the timeline. I get a bit confused by the whole Jeremy Benthem thing. Lostpedia is a fantastic source, but when the first flash fwd episode occurred, Jack was reading Benthem's obit and it was an April 2007 edition of the LA Times. I recall pointing this out to a friend at the time, how the actual words and clipping could be twisted a bit to see most of it the way Jack does. (I think DarkUFO had the screencaps).

I was thinking Sun, Locke, etc. flashed back to April 2007, but that really means nothing. Also, to think that they didn't flash at all meant they stayed in proper time is wrong, as well. We just didn't see them flash, we saw the 77ers flash. The only thing to go on is the "Three Years Later/Earlier" tag. Have we seen that mentioned in regards to those on Hydra Island?

The 2007/8 thing is confusing and some people will go with the flight being soon after April of 07 or (more likely) Jan of 08. So if they did flash to Hydra, why such a short period in time? Doc Jensen at EW says 2007, I think it's easier to separate the decades, i.e., 77-07 and 54-04. I've always gone with April of 07 for the last two years, until the 3YL thing.

The only tell would be Richard saying to Locke that he'd been gone three years in the last episode, but RA is not really the go-to guy re: when anyone really is.

The point of my comment? You got me. It would have been less confusing if the DI timeframe had been 74-78 (keeping with the decades), by not doing that we get the mystery re: where and when Ajira 316 is.

Great post above, Big. So, Sayid HAD to shoot Ben (well, somebody had to, maybe not Sayid), to ensure that he would be recuperating in the Temple during the evacuation on the Island. With all the action going on last week, I had forgotten about the thought that, if Sayid had hesitated, Ben would be off the Island, etc. I now see him in a different light, I didn't care that he shot young Ben in the slightest, but now it seems that he had no choice, he was predestined to do so all along, free will or not.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, I know what you mean about what not to think about. That's why I tossed in a ha ha ha after mentioning the ARGs. Like I said, I'll bet no one at all thought LOST would be so scrutinized. From a writer's viewpoint, I'd guess that we, as viewers, can be expected to take a "leap of faith" in understanding certain things. (There are times that I don't have a direct answer at the end of my stories, I leave it to the reader to decide what happened in the next few moments). Claire's implant might have been something like an identity chip or something. The fake door camp was simply a tricky thing Tom, Bea, and the Others put up, maybe back when Rousseau was wandering around by herself. We might still see (or get a better reason of how its done) the word QUARANTINE put on the Hatch. Yet, why was there one in the Arrow? To dissuade the Hostiles? Various parts of the show I think we can twist out our own answers, just as Big did re: how Jughead might be detonated, and by whom. (So, even if--by weird chance--it was never explained, well, Big just gave a plausible answer, if you follow me).

I'd really like to get the story of Henry Gale, seriously. The concept alone of him being on a balloon, writing a farewell note on a $20 in his wallet, and getting killed by the Others is a story in itself. The smaller things, I can live w/o knowing. Henry Gale and Libby (Widmore?) are different. I'm not so much calling foul, just saying that there's a lot to play with in regards to those two characters. (I had thought one time flash might have involved the balloon.) Looking forward to your post on Perditia Scientia.

Again, I'm leaning towards there being an Ilana-centric episode next season, maybe we'll get the stories of all the kids, DI, Others, and, um, otherwise.

Capcom said...

Yes, the biggest tell for the 2007 thing, was that everytime they switched from Locke-time to Dharma time, it's always announced as 30 years earlier or later. So then you start thinking, like GT did, what happened to the extra year that Ajira left in??? :-o

And yeah, Henry Gale and the fake door?! Those too! :-D

I had asked people over at the TLC blog how the heck Dan or Jack would set off Jughead, but no one is too interested over there in the science aspects (like we are here!), so I didn't get any response. I was wondering for accuracy's sake alone, how TPTB could have someone set off a test bomb just like that, if they don't have a detonator. Of course I suppose if they break into it, you run into the deal of the exposed fissile material going into a critical state, but that mostly happens with housed material ( exposed rods) in a power plant, or an experimental lab setup that gets exposed for too long (Los Alamos). I don't really know that much about rogue bombs, so I was very curious about the reality of the detonation aspect. You're right Wayne, I should have come here to find out in the first place, heheh.

Very interesting about how you end some of your stories Wayne! :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, thx, and you gotta figure that LOST will end with a big ? for certain things. My fiction is psychological, its more HOMICIDE than CSI, so I'll end a story where its more the reader's frame of mind that leads him/her a few steps past the last line of the story. This works well in that that same reader might see a completely different ending if they choose to read it again while in a different frame of mind.

When I say I only go to your blog or here, as well as read Doc Jensen's emails, its because of my dumb-ass robotic mutant body that operates so slow. And so much time is spent on the current ghostwriting project. What I like about Big's blog, and I hold nothing against any of the other blogs I've seen in the past, is that you don't see someone bopping on here with a theory that we've already discussed three months back. Everyone here reads the posts and the comments. Its like we are all in a DI classroom and Bignouth is Olivia, talking about volcanoes, exotic energy, or fission bombs. So that's why I show up for class every day.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, re: the Thirty Years Later & the same not showing up with Desmond and Penny (and thx, NOW I understand why the confusion w/ Des & Penny), I was checking Lostpedia re: The Tunnels and The Temple, and some articles refer to 2008, others to 2007. I do think its a bit confusing to most.

Here's why some went to 77. Sayid to shoot Ben, inadvertently keeping him from being evacuated. Jack, to do whatever he will do in the finale. Kate, well, she was there to screw with as many people as she could. Also, this explains why the events happened as quick as they do, because they flashed to within a time frame for all their predestined duties to take place.

That being said, is there some significance to John, Sun, etc., flashing to 2007? (Though there's still that three year reference by Richard, who probably can't even remember that the Red Sox won the World Series twice now).

Capcom said...

LOL. Well it's sure confusing to me, haha. Yes, that's what I have no idea about, why John, Sun, etc., went to 2007. Someone over at TLC blog had a theory about that and it sounded good, but I can't remember what it was. I'll try to find it tomorrow.

Hey friends-o-mine, I just got back from seeing the Star Trek movie, and once everyone here has seen it I've got some serious Lost-type questions about it! A little cross-talk on the shared principles might clear some things up about Lost. I won't spoil anything here though, don't worry. Just will say it's AWESOME!! And funny. And sentimental. And totally action-packed. And beautiful.


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

It would be a smart thing on Abrams' part to have some LOST-integration concepts to get the LOST blogs talking and get some people to go see the film now instead of waiting to see it on DVD.

Maybe the rest of the gang is on Hydra in 2007 because the world is extinct in 2008. Until Jack "fixes things." Then we get 2008 back and STAR TREK comes out in 2009 and next month we all go to KoreAmBear's first annual EYE M SICK-O-RAMA. Get Lapidus on the phone, he's flipping burgers. Tom is giving dance lessons.

80sPro said...

Saw Star Trek last night and have determined self to be a true and devout GEEK. There was a LOST easter egg in there, in a certain exchange, and I was gasping. I gasped. I pointed at the screen excitedly. I realized Abrams and Lindelof put that in ther for just us. It was at that moment I realized it was over for me. I would like to marry JJ. And you all everybody MUST see Star Trek. And Happy Mother's day to all you mummy's !

Capcom said...

Haha, 80spro :o) Did you see the Cloverfield eastereggs? I missed them I was too mesmerized, I read about it last night. I must have missed the Lost egg too. :-B

I have a lot of Qs about how the incidents in this movie affect, or go with, the original series, in addition to the "major plot issue" if you know what I mean.

Can't figure out what Ebert's problem is with the film, accept that sometime's he's unpredictable with SciFi.

Here are a few EEs listed:

SKID said...

Vincent Mystery Solved:

He is fine.

His time jumps have just been 7 years further than anyone elses.

On a more serious note,

Is there any connection to Vincent and the fact that Egyptians gods and the masks they wear are fashioned after dogs?

If we pan around to the front of four toe and that statue is a spitting image of Vincent, I am going to . . . well, I'm not sure what I would do.


See what I am reduced to writing about now that the tie is gone.

Greg Tramel said...

maybe vincent will have THE tie on

was i wondering was if when 815 crashed if it was 2003 on the island instead of 2004 when 815 took off but if we trust lostpedia i suppose that idea is debunked

anyway, i have a thought about ellie's & widmore "complicated" relationship, i'm thinking the Others live communally in a sorta group marriage and hooking up with another Other (there is a song in there somewhere) is par for the course but once you hookup with an outsider (like widmore) you get exiled off the island

Capcom said...

LOL guys. I hope that whomever has Dan's tie in Ann Arbor preserves it for posterity in the DI historical archives. :o)

I pretty sure that the printout from the Pearl said that the system failure that Des created specifically read, Sept 22, 2004. That's how Des knew that he caused it too, when he saw that.

Yes, Richard did say that relationships were "complicated" on the island, ew. I wonder if there is any precedence in history that we can find on something like this, perhaps Egyptian, early Asia Minor...?? Maybe it's sort of like the garden of Eden, where they apparently would have to kinda inbreed to get humanity going, since Islanders weren't supposed to "off-breed". Then there's the old Nephalim theory. :-o

Greg Tramel said...

for the most part this was just my response to those that STILL think Ellie & Widmore are siblings and hence being “complicated”, we could take the bloodline route and there was the Boone & Shannon relationship BUT i'm REALLY doubting Ellie & Widmore are siblings

yes, i am leaning towards Nephilim for The Others origins

Greg Tramel said...

yes, my notion of it being 2003 on the island after the 815 crash is totally busted (as they would say in that other show)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey,everyone. Greg, the Pearl printout does show 2004, if I recall correctly, the date of the crash was the premiere date (I never watched the first season until summer reruns). Interesting thoughts on the relationships between the Others.

@Capcom, I was reading up on Mayan glyps for that story I'm doing for the 2012 anthology and I was shunted over to a comparison of glyphs in India from the 14th and 15th centuries. That's Asia Minor (or it was), right? The point of the links were that Mayan glyphs were phonetic in nature, and Egyptian and Indian glyphs were stand alone words. No reason not to think that the Island couldn't have been in the Indian Ocean at one time. Also consider India being under British rule, so there's that. Sometimes, I want to believe the Egyptian thing is a red herring, particularly when it was shoved in our face when Jack was erasing the blackboard.

Oh, when I mentioned 2008 being extinct, I should have taken that further (I was trying to explain that the reason for some of Ajira being sent back only a few months, if it is indeed November in 1977, from the turkeys in the classroom, that Ajira was sent back because there was NO PRESENT ANYMORE). An interesting cliffhanger would be that 2008 was unraveling and that is why Desmond needs to go back to the Island.

Greg Tramel said...

hmm INTERESTING IDEA WAYNE! present went kaput & only the “past” exists on the island

Capcom said...

NO PRESENT! What a concept! :-O Then the VE did come true after all, heheh.

I just saw "Breaking the Maya Code" on PBS last week, their glyphs are really fascinating and complicated!

Yeah, GT, I was wondering that too, ew. I'm still worried about Des and Pen finding out something "icky" about themselves. Hopefully TPTB won't go near that.

Greg Tramel said...

remind my feeble mind, have we heard/saw anytinhg about Des' parents?

i'm sticking with Des & Penny are NOT siblings (not even step siblings) and the same for Ellie & Widmore

Capcom said...

Without doing the research (I'm too lazy, haha) Des says something way back when, about how he had to take care of his brother(s) when something happened to his parents. I think it was when he was talking to Wid in his office about asking to marry Penny. I also think that he gets cut off in mid sentence and doesn't get to explain what happened to them, so we don't really know.

Greg Tramel said...

bad twin #864

Is Juliet Another Other?

JLes said...

WOW..... Greg Trammel....

blowing my mind. That totally looks like Juliette.

Capcom said...


KoreAmBear said...

Interesting thought also in the comments that that it really is Faraday in the Con-Con video but that perhaps because of the strike, they're really not going to develop this, i.e. Darlton is telling is not to worry about this.

Capcom said...

I'm reading/thinking that too Koreambear. I just hope that they keep the science plot elements in there somehow (even if Dan is really dead and not in the vid), if only by exposition.

Greg Tramel said...

i know TPTB say the comic con vidoes are not cannon

Greg Tramel said...

BUT it IS still part of the show to me

remember baby Dan MAY not have been born yet so he may still be able to record the Chang video

Greg Tramel said...

this is far from being comprehensive but it is a nice little summary

Religious references in ABC's LOST TV Series : PART 1 Religious references in ABC's LOST TV Series : PART 2

Capcom said...

Sweet! That's a good blog overall, thanks for posting it. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, gang. The Comic-Con videos are not canon (nothing to do with the strike), yet there might be something about Faraday's pinhole theory that might be realized. Nothing came of the Orchid outtakes, though we did see evidence of the bunnies. Then we first got Eloise the rat, exotic energy, and the entire Orchid setup. Nothing about if Chang touched the two bunnies, and lost use of his arm. Dan is..that is, Dead is Dead. The Comic-Con videos shove us along to the next season, I'd have to see this week's finale first, but I'm assuming if people still are all over the place, the pinhole thing might work. But this summer there will be another video that will just open up new scenarios, but still will not be canon. So if nothing comes of the Chang video, I'm not crying foul. If there is something, cool, but if not, oh well. Though we really did get an idea of the time jumps, and that was the best surprise for S5, for me. So as Capcom says, as long as the science plot elements remain the same, great. I don't think we were meant to see any real pinhole-broadcast, simply be aware of Faraday and Chang being in the same time frame, and the multiple time jumps were even better.

If I sound cranky about this its mostly because they only show the videos in San Diego, never in Chicago. Same convention, just the stop before SD, ha ha.(You'd think they'd have money budgeted to come out here, really...)

Thanks for the links, Greg. I was rewatching the tail end of Faraday's episode to get to last week's, watching it again. Damn if that rabbit in the glass isn't there plain as day.

80sPro said...

Greg. Whoa.

The STANCE is Juliet. The look is Juliet. Both pics look like her.


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg, I finished rewatching the episode last night, there's a close-up of this woman when Locke is asking them all to go with him to see Jacob. Up close you can't see it, from a distance, like 80sPro said, even the stance is there. You just know that the producers are grabbing people like this, Big mentioned that Amy might be Amelia from Juliet's book club. Unlikely, but still, the producers have to be choosing certain actors for bit parts as Others.

Greg Tramel said...

if nothing else more lookalikes in the show, i think Teresa’s caregiver (Teresa’s sister) looks alot like Ellie and there are many many other "twins"

be sure to read the comments in he post but remember we don't make a fuss when losties start talking about Sawyer every time he takes his shirt off

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Yeah, the shirtless Sawyer line is funny. Don't forget, Greg, that symmetry has long been a part of LOST, at one point, the thought was that the tail section survivors were doppelgangers of the front-enders (for the one-week cliffhanger, after Jin escaped). Possible twins on the boat when Walt was abducted, that kind of thing. I think its kind of cool, because it makes the viewer pay attention to the background characters.

Greg Tramel said...

a double comment since i posted on the wrong post

fringe quote: "there is more than one of everything"