Wednesday, May 13, 2009

Thoughts on the Incident...

I love so many things about Lost. But what I appreciate most is the way it always stays fresh by shifting ground just when I've found solid footing. Think Ben talks with Jacob? Wrong! Believe Bram and Ilana are the next generation of DHARMA? No soup for you! Suspect that Charlie Widmore's war will be between DHARMA: TNG and the Others? System Failure! Like some reality-tv cliche, I've been boldly proclaiming that I see the picture on the box of the show. As the Donald would say:

Let's begin at the beginning because the game changing scene for me, like many of you apparently, was the very first one of the episode. A lot of people are calling the Man in Black "Esau," which makes sense given the biblical connection to Jacob. But my suggestion for the Man in Black's biblical nickname would be the "Accuser" given his resemblance to the Accusing Angel (in most translations, Satan) who appears throughout the Old Testament as a persistent doubter and critic of humanity.

A great example is the Book of Job, which is framed by a divine wager over human worth. God brags about the devotion of his subject Job. The Accusing Angel counters that Job is so devoted because God has rewarded him with many possessions, a family, and good health. Ever the pessimist, the Angel bets that Job will renounce God if these things are taken from him. Eager to prove him wrong, God accepts the bet and gives the Angel permission to get "Guantanamo" on poor Job.

Remarkably, Job refuses to break even after his property is destroyed and his children are slaughtered. The Accusing Angel cynically notes that a man will give up everything to save his own skin, prompting God to authorize still harsher measures. The Angel takes Job's health, covering him from head to toe with painful boils. Job resists but eventually cracks, cursing the day he was born. Job's friends rebuke him, insisting he must have done something wrong to deserve his horrible plight.

Finally, God appears as a whirlwind and admonishes them all for presuming to understand his motives. In a series of brilliant yet disturbing passages, God illustrates the inadequacy of human metaphors to describe his divine design. The lesson is that bad things sometimes happen to good people for reasons our puny human minds just can't comprehend. His point made, God restores Job's lost health, family, and possessions, plus a little extra for his pain and suffering.

Like the Accusing Angel, the Man in Black is apparently cynical and pessimistic and about humanity. He seems convinced that our nature is to fight, destroy, and corrupt. Like God, Jacob is seemingly optimistic and determined to prove the Man in Black wrong. There's even a Jobian parallel in Ben, who becomes leader of the Others only to have his people, family, and health taken from him in horrible ways. No wonder Ben finally attacks Jacob like Job rebukes God.

The Man in Black accuses Jacob of bringing the ship -- presumably the Black Rock -- that we see off in the distance. Not surprisingly, Jacob doesn't deny the accusation. Like the Eye of Horus in his tapestry, he reaches out and touches people, drawing them to the Island. And why does Jacob do this? I think a clue to his motives can be found in his comment that the world "only ends once" and "anything that happens before that is just progress."

Jacob and the Man in Black are debating the fate of humanity. Without Jacob's intervention, the world would surely end, it's just a question of when. The Man in Black wants Jacob to stop postponing the inevitable because humans just aren't worth it. Jacob insists we're capable of progress and keeps bringing people to the Island in hopes of finding the Omega Point, which will save us once and for all. I'm guessing this is a very old debate between them -- one the Man in Black knows will never end unless he kills Jacob.

Jacob's conduct throughout the episode is consistent with this reading. He touches our Losties at pivotal moments in their lives to keep them on course for the Island, where they have roles in his plan to defy fate. Notice how several of the people he visits -- i.e., Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, and Sayid -- play key parts in causing the Incident. The Sawyer encounter is particularly instructive. If he doesn't finish that letter, chase the real Sawyer to Australia, crash on the Island, travel back in time, and pull a Han Solo, the assault on the Swan site probably fails.

Notice as well how closely the Incident resembles the Swan implosion, right down to the flying metal objects and bright flash of light. That's more than mere narrative parallel. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that Desmond's activation of the Fail-Safe generated an electromagnetic pulse much like Juliet's detonation of the fission trigger. Bottom line: both events saved the world against all odds, in defiance of the Valenzetti. That's two we owe Jacob...

So who are Jacob and the Man in Black? I have some ideas, but first let me note one more relevant Old Testament connection. In the Book of Genesis, the biblical patriarch Jacob wrestles with a mysterious figure (sometimes said to be the aforementioned Accusing Angel) on the night before being reunited with Esau. The story of their battle is often interpreted as a metaphor for Jacob's internal struggle with his own doubts and mental demons. You might say Jacob was wrestling with his bad twin.

Here's where things get a little whackadoo. I'm sticking with my speculation that the Island is sentient, like Stanislaw Lem's Solaris or Philip K. Dick's VALIS. The twist is that some ancient trauma damaged the Island's giant brain. The result was two distinct personalities: one light, one dark. Jacob and the Man in Black are avatars that represent these two opposing sides of the Island's identity. (And before you say avatars don't eat, remember that Dave craved tacos.) Jacob was right that Hurley isn't crazy. It's the Island that's lost its mind...

This brings me to the other people whom Jacob visited -- Ilana, Locke, Jin, and Sun. Since none of them played a direct role in causing the Incident, I suspect that Jacob has other parts in mind for these four. In fact, I think we've just witnessed Locke's real purpose, which was to provide a loophole for the Man in Black to kill Jacob. You read that correctly -- I think Jacob wanted to die. He saw the Man in Black's move coming from a mile away and exploited it for his own ends. Hence the Obi-Wan Kenobi quality to Jacob's death.

I think Jacob has concluded that the Omega Point can't occur until they're both dead. The rules prohibit them from killing each other. I'm betting, however, that whatever loophole the Man in Black exploited to kill Jacob now leaves him vulnerable to a similar fate. He's standing in the shadow of the statue, having just orchestrated the murder of the Others' beloved leader. Someone loyal to Jacob will eventually figure this out and avenge Jacob's death. I'm guessing that part is reserved for Ilana.

That leaves Jin and Sun. Notice how they're the only ones Jacob visits as a couple, at the moment of their improbable union. It's because their role in his plan necessarily requires two actors: conceiving little Ji-Yeon. Jacob realizes that the only way to cure the Island's madness is to substitute two new avatars who somehow transcend their opposition. One will be Ji-Yeon, who was conceived on the Island but born off it. The other will be Aaron, who was conceived off the Island but born on it.

Mark my words, those two will eventually meet and fall in love. Everything that rises must converge on a Lost wedding between Aaron and Ji-Yeon some time before 2031. And while I'm making predictions (you'd think I'd learn my lesson, but no...) here are a few more from the Whackadoo Well for your reading pleasure:

Whackadoo Prediction 4: Richard is from the Black Rock. He may be its Captain, Magnus Hanso, but more likely he's the first mate based on his apparent role as advisor to whoever leads the Others. The Black Rock's arrival is the first step in Jacob's elaborate long con of both destiny and the Man in Black, as symbolized by Richard's ship in a bottle in Follow the Leader.

Whackadoo Prediction 8: Nothing we've already seen on the show has changed as a result of detonation of the Jughead's fission trigger. Flight 815 crashed on the Island just as it always did -- there is no reboot yielding a grandfather paradox. If that's where the show were going, I believe we would have received some small but clear indication of its direction. Something like Cort's Cuthbert's horn -- those of you familiar with the Stephen King's Dark Tower series will know what I mean. Instead, we got just the opposite in Miles's sardonic comment that Jack and Co. might be causing the Incident by trying to prevent it.

By that same token, it's equally wrong to say this was all simply a case of whatever happened, happened. I maintain that our Losties, like Desmond, changed what was supposed to happen. It is this altered timeline, in which they save the world, that we've witnessed thus far. Because neither the Incident nor activation of the Fail-Safe was supposed to happen, the general rule of course correction doesn't apply. Both events must thus be actively preserved. If anything changes, as Ms. Hawking said, every single one of us is dead.

Prediction 15: Some of those present for the Incident will survive, having been transported by the blast back to Island's the future. That's why Jacob's last words were: "They're coming..."

Whackadoo Prediction 16: Juliet will wake up naked in the jungle just like Desmond did following the Swan implosion. Okay, that's probably some wishful thinking on my part, but the Desmond parallel gives me hope that she, too, survived the blast. If so, look for her consciousness to time travel like Desmond's, and for her to join those who meet Jacob at some pivotal point in their pasts.

Whackadoo Prediction 23: Sayid is dead. Yes, the Island has healing powers. But even on the Island, you don't come back from a gut shot -- ask Ana Lucia, Libby, and Colleen. I wish it were otherwise, but I've had a sinking suspicion for some time that Sayid's story is basically done.

Whackadoo Prediction 42: Hurley survives but must make a pit-stop in 2004 before quantum leaping back to the future. His job? To actively effectuate events we've seen by hanging Charlie's guitar from a tree branch, where Locke will tell Charlie to look, as he did back in Season 1 during House of the Rising Sun...

That's all for this recap, you all everybody. Thanks again for your incredible comments and participation, which make running Eye M Sick so rewarding! Be sure to check back here during the hiatus for further whackadoo speculations. I'll also be posting over on I Hate My DVR my new blog about television generally. If you like shows like Lost, Battlestar Galactica, and Breaking Bad, I suspect we'll have lots to talk about...

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


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Capcom said...


KoreAmBear said...

AGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! Just kidding. It's only 4:09 pm here in Hawaii. OK, I'm not coming back until I've seen the finale. That might not be until tomorrow, so spoil away! I hope the "comment period" is for weeks with how blow away this finale should be. I hope we're not disappointed.

Capcom said...

Heheh, sorry, didn't mean to give anything away! X-D

Man, you are in for a riiiiide so far!

dj said...

So... the ONLY things answered:

Jacob [white] and Smokey [black] are in a struggle about humans and how much they suck (or don't). And Smokey body-snatches Locke -- scanned him and all that and identified him as a candidate. Just like Frank's been identified as a candidate for Jacob's next incarnation, I guess.

And the nuke... resets the show and leaves us 100% clueless as to what to expect next. As in, did it change the future? We have no idea, because we saw things play out in 2007. Was that "before" the nuke went off, and thus is now irrelevant? Or... no? Shrug.

It was fun to watch... and was satisfying because it... sort of answered some things... but oh come on. :(

dj said...

Oh, oh, but! To be fair! Rose, Bernard, and Vincent! There we go.

Chicagomike said...

What did Richard say? Was that Latin?

Capcom said...

Right DJ, TPTB told us a long time ago....Locke is pliable. :-o

Gonna go check the instant replay for the latin now, unless someone gets it before then.

dj said...

I don't know. But yeah it probably was Latin because that's the super-secret Others language!

Capcom said...

Ricardus said: "Illes qui nos omnes servabit"

Capcom said...

Or, so my captions spelled it, that is.

Capcom said...

Misspelled, "Ille", sorry.

BoMac said...

Lostpedia has it as: "That who we all serve."

dj said...

Oh, and the statue? Sobek. I mean, it was a crocodile face, right? Not a hippo like we all thought? Or a dog like we all thought before that? :X

Could be wrong... it wasn't clear to me. We don't have cable and I had to pull out an old TV and watch this with bunny ears! The horror...

Capcom said...

But it looked like Tawaret too.

Tx for the translation, we were thinking that it was "he who saves us all". So much for couch-potato latin. :-)

dj said...

...ha, jeez, check out the Popular Culture section. Didn't take them long, did it?

"Sobek was revealed in the season finale of the fifth season of Lost, as the 4-toed statue on the island."

Wonder what was up with Emerson's Taweret scam? He's turning into his character, lying jerkie!

Capcom said...


Anonymous said...

I thought that was a great season ender...and thanks to TPTB for wrapping up Bernard, Rose and Vincent nicely, perfectly. I hope we haven't seen the last of them for purely selfish reasons, but I am satisfied with their story.

So, if Jacob is Sobek, then Locke 2.0 must be Set and the Losties somehow make Horus's 4 sons, coming to seek revenge, though they don't really know it? I am trying to understand the myth, any help and what does everyone else think?

And I totally knew it was Locke's body in that box. Poor John Locke...what was special about him was that he wasn't. Damn, damn, damn.


Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, and crap it just occurred to me that Horus 4 sons represent compass directions and there have been pointed compass references lately - Richard/Locke's compass, Sawyer asking Kate if she has the compass...

The other thing that I recall is that the 4 sons of Horus each had female protectors.

The 4 sons I think are Sawyer, Jack, Desmond, Jin (one of the son's has a wife who is The Sun and Set prevents her passage to somewhere - sorry I don't have a better grasp! Maybe someone else does...:)) and so the female protectors must be Kate, Juliette, Sun...and Hurley?? I don't quite know.

AND ONE OTHER THING...first the Egyptians give us unfathomable contributions to civilizations that cause some to speculate they were aliens, and now the Egpytians give us LOST. Amazing.


Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

OMG, yo …. I can’t believe it. My beloved LOST is done until 2010. How painful it was to see that date flash up on the screen. ‘What’s done is done’ and ‘What ever happened, happened.’ That seemed to be the running theme … interesting. I missed you all last week – Thanks Wayne.

Initial rambling thoughts in no particular order:

• Jacob has been involved in our Losties lives, at different parts of their lives. Significance?

• So the real Locke is dead. Is the faux Locke is the person who was searching for a loophole to kill Jacob? And did ‘Alex’ know that when she threatened Ben? A fake Locke explains the look of disgust he gave Ben when he spoke about killing Jacob.

• How painful it was to see Ben have the tables turned on him and be manipulated.

• Was Sayid slated to die with Nadia and did Jacob save him by asking for directions?

• How did the Dharma folks NOT know about the tunnels when building Dharmaville?

• The whole Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet thing. It was annoying. Even though I’ve never been a fan of Juliet and I still didn’t think she’s been/being truthful, it was painful to see her deal with her nemesis. Really could have done without the love story, though.

• Mostly everyone had their own reason for setting the bomb off. Still I don’t understand why most would want to erase the past few years and go back to their previous lives, since they were miserable.

• Let me get this, Jack’s reason for setting off the bomb is because he’s lost Kate and could never get her back?

• Hurley’s encounter with Jacob, not enough to him to go back to the island.

• [talking out loud] Did the loophole occur when they set off the bomb?

• Since Ben was on Jacob’s side, does this mean Widmore was on the other?

• Did we see how Dr. Candle loose his arm? Who else clapped when Phil got it?

• Near the end, Hurley was the only rationale one.

I didn’t NOT like the episode, I liked it fine. It just didn’t have that ‘Oh Snap’ feeling when LOST flashed up on the screen in the end. I’m sure my views will change after reading the comments and rewatching the episode.

Wishing everyone a GREAT day.

80sPro said...

Amazing Lost PDX - because he DID prevent Sun from traveling - back to 1977.

What side is Christian on? The good side. We saw last night that some of the "daddy issues" Jack has are fabricated, in his own mind. Christian was trying to help in the OR.

It was fantastic. But I was sooooo sad at the end - that Locke would have his way. That Ben would do that. Jacob had to have known.

So Richardus - he was "doomed" somehow, to walk through the loop a billion times. And he knew Locke wasn't special....

It's sort of sad that Locke really is just a candidate for being an unlucky sonnofagun.

Okay, so the loop is broken because Jacob is dead. And the crash never happened because Juliet ROCKS (I hope she gets to come back, too).

But there were some good things: Des found Penny and they had a wee Charlie. Sun and Jin managed to conceive. Aaron ends up with his grandmother instead of a family of strangers. So really undoing it all - what it makes me think of is no matter what has happened in my life, mistakes and all, I wouldn't take any of it back. Because to relive it would be too hard, and also I wouldn't want to undo the GOOD stuff.

Interesting character study, Jacob!

Anonymous said...

Did Jacob kill Sayid's wife? or Did Jacob prevent the car from hitting Sayid?

Something to think about...

Elliott said...

Ok, so I think that the statue is actually Sobek - the Egyptian crocodile god:

"He was also shown with an ankh, representing his ability to undo evil and so cure ills."

That just fits so well for me - plus I think that the head of the statue was a crocodile's...

Anonymous said...

I cant help but parallel Juliet's fall down the drill well to John's fall down the water well. Both of them survive the fall and reset the island in some manner.

Locke course corrects the island with his turning of the wheel and he poits* himself back to the real world.

Will Juliet return next year then? It's easy to say she died, but what if her setting the bomb off, resets the island and poits her somewhere back in the real world with a chance to live??

or she could just be dead.

80sPro said...

Hey Pooh!

I do have to disagree with you about the Sayid thing. Because I think that maybe Jacob CAUSED Nadia's death by stopping Sayid, because then she turns and stops. If she'd kept going, the van would have missed her.

Notice how he didn't prevent anything. He's just there when stuff happens.

80sPro said...

Yeah I agree he is Sobek, Jacob.

Yes, Jacob causes Nadia's death. I am positive of it.

THAT is why Sayid takes her home. She asked to be taken home.

dj said...

My answer attempts to Pooh:

1. Must be significant!

2. "John" is Smokey. So was "Alex". So was "Eko", for that matter, and I think "Christian" has been as well, all this time. That seems to be Smokey's thing... body-snatching dead folks and manipulating people.

3. After all Ben's done, yeah! You just have to clap. And then you feel bad for him for some reason. X_X

4. It does look like Sayid was targeted. Maybe we'll get more of an explanation about why at some point... he really wasn't doing anything to anyone yet. He went ninja BECAUSE of this event.

5. Good freaking question...

6. Yeah, the love story was very annoying. Go away, Kate. You don't know what you want. Stop messing with people who do. =(

7. They were indeed miserable but I think stuff spiraled so far out of control and so far from reality that it made sense to just reboot everything. Unfortunately, if that's really what happened, we just got a show reboot... much like what happened in Alias pretty much every season.

8. Mmmm yep. Jack was just totally bummed, man.

9. Actually, I think it was enough for him. He was looking for a reason to go all along, but he was afraid of Ben. Then you get this random dude who seems to "get it" and it was just what Hurley needed. Now, unfortunately, we still don't know what's in the damn guitar case...

10. I don't think the bomb was the loophole. I think that's another storyline altogether that's being played out. There seem to have always been these two things going on, a science story and a faith story... the bomb wrapped up the science story for the season, while the Jacob quest wrapped up the faith story for the season.

11. I think Ben vs Widmore has been some piddly BS to throw us off track and keep us entertained/questioning this entire time. With the audience distracted by Widmore's scary mercs, who's going to think twice about much else? After all, that seemed like THE battle, didn't it? But now we see that there are even bigger players involved, and Ben vs Widmore was just two jerks butting heads over a leadership role. I will say, however, that the scene with Ben and Widmore in Widmore's room, complaining of the nightmares... and "we both know I can't do that"... is too reminiscent of the exchange between Jacob and Smokey at the beginning of the finale. That's got to mean something.

12. Yeah, the machinery crippled his arm. =\ And yes seeing Phil get pwned was good. Blackmailing jerk.

13. *shrug*

I stayed up really late just... pondering all this stuff last night. What I finally arrived at was that we've all been taken for a ride for quite some time now. This whole damn show is Smokey trying to find a way to kill Jacob, since for whatever reason, the relationship between these two entities is one that forbids them from offing one another. (Hm. Maybe the dude's name is Esau? Hah.) Directly, anyway. So Smokey sets on this 400-year quest to find the perfect way to assassinate Jacob, while it looks to me like Jacob was spending this time trying to prove that people were good and could act responsibly. That's what was up with the Leader thing. He wanted it to be Locke, eventually, but as we've seen, Smokey manipulated Richard into telling Locke that he'd have to die to fix the Island (which he so desperately wanted to do -- his only reason for living)... and in so doing, and then the corpse arriving back on the Island, Smokey managed to body-snatch it and was then able to be Leader -- i.e. a human able to talk with Jacob because Jacob chose said Leader. And hey, I'm Leader so I get what I want, right? I'm bringing Ben. And Ben's kinda miffed. Stabitty stab. Loophole found. Jacob can be killed by people, so all it took was a perfect storm where people (Ben) could be led to Jacob and pissed off enough to kill him, as well. It's possible there was something significant about Ben -- not any old person would do -- but then it may also be that Smokey knew Ben had had quite enough and wouldn't hesitate to pwn Jacob.

And that's all well and good, but I have no idea where that leaves the show. =)

JLes said...

Wow, pretty great ep, but slightly disappointed with the very end. I just don't like how they didn't build anything up, but rather left literally ANYTHING up for grabs in the 6th season. It's almost not even worth speculating what will happen. I really wish they could have set up the sides for this "war". Though, after seeing Jacob breathe life back into Locke, I'm gonna take a guess of who this war is between:

God vs. The Devil

Jules said...

I think the statue really is Tawaret. I don't think it's Sobek because of a few reasons:

1) Sobek wears a Uraeus on his head. The statue did not have a Uraeus on it.
2) If you look at the statue closely, the ears also stick out. Sobek doesn't have ears that stick out (he has a crocodile-head).
3) The statue has sharp teeth and an elongated snout - this could be Sobek, however, Tawaret also has sharp teeth and an elongated snout, like Sobek does.
4) Tawaret holds the Ankh as well - so do a lot of the gods/goddesses in Ancient Egypt.
5) Tawaret also has four toes while Sobek has five.
6) The tapestry showed the statue as well - in the tapestry, you can see breasts and a pregnant belly. Sobek is never represented with breasts and a pregnant belly. The statue is female and therefore is Tawaret.

All these put together, I'm pretty sure the statue is Tawaret but of course, I would stand corrected. ;) AWESOME FINALE btw!

Christie said...

I just have to say that I really loved that LOST faded to white. I agree with JLes that it's pretty hard to speculate on season 6 because it could mean anything. But I'd like to think that fading to white maybe means something big in their lives will course correct. Since Jacob visited some of the Losties when they are younger you have to think that they are destined to be on that island. There's another season to go so obviously they don't all just go to LA on a plane that never crashed. But I think the bomb may change things enough that so many of our Losties won't die.
I'm sad that Locke is really dead but I also didn't want to believe that he had turned so seemingly evil too. But why does Jacob bring him back to life after he's thrown out the window from his dad only to have him die in the end. I still think there's a greater purpose for Locke (maybe it was just to get Jack, the true future leader to believe).
I also agree with other posts about Ben. He's done such horrible things and yet he's so broken in this episode you feel for him when even at the end Jacob can't even redeem his worth a little. I still can't grasp why Jacob didn't just say, "hey Ben that's not Locke" Like Jacob knew it was time to die. And yet if you have lived for hundreds of years how can you just die? Weird
I also agree that this seasons Alex and "new" Locke is smokey manipulating things. Maybe that's why Eko was killed because he saw the smoke monster for what it was and refused to be manipulated.
Still love this show even though I seriously will go through withdrawals now . . .

DakranII said...

Two things about Jacob, I wonder if anyone has any biblical knowledge on.

1 - He touches everyone of the Losties that he meets. He taps Kate on the nose, grabs Sawyer's shoulder, touches Jack's hand when they exchange the candy bar, touches Sun and Jin.

2 - The significance of the ash ring around the cabin. It appears to trap Jacob in the cabin. When it's broken, he is no longer there.

Interesting about the significance of Hurley. He's the only one that Jacob visited AFTER they were on the island. He visited him between leaving the island and returning. And he's the only one that Jacob had an extended conversation with.

And what's in the guitar case?

Christie said...

ignore this post - just want the emails moving forward :)

DakranII said...

I'm trying to figure out how to get this thought out clearly...

I see a lot of God/Jesus/Good vs. Satan/Evil in this episode.

God allows Satan to play his part in tempting man. Man has free will, given by God (and said by Jacob in this episode, telling Ben he is free to choose). So this free will allows Satan/Evil to tempt man. It's the only recourse Satan/Evil has against God/Jesus/Good, by sowing the seeds of doubt in man's mind. Satan/Evil can't kill God/Jesus/Good, he can only do so in a metaphorical sense by killing the faith that man has in God/Jesus/Good.

Satan can't kill God, so he tries to "kill" God by eliminating belief. The loophole was finding a way and a vessel to use to plant the seeds of doubt in a fitting candidate.

Locke (Evil/Satan) tempts Ben to forsake his BELIEF and FAITH that Jacob exists. Killing Jacob wasn't literal, but a metaphor for killing the faith that Ben had in Jacob.

Ben says "I did all of this while having faith in you and you never showed yourself to me." Didn't we get the story of Thomas a few episodes ago? "Doubting" Thomas needed to SEE the risen Jesus to believe. Which isn't what faith is.

I don't know how the Egyptian part of this will tie in.

Anonymous said...

Great episode. I can't wait to hear more of your guys thoughts!

Who is this war between and why? It appears that Illana and crew and Richard are for Jacob... Where does Christian Stand? Where the heck is Claire too? Was she manipulated as well by Smokey? uhg... there are too many characters now! lol I cant keep them all straight!


Jason said...

Some great posts here! But that finale didn't leave me wanting more (like the previous 5), so that leaves me with the impression that this finale was a bit "meh" (but the season overall was legit).

But could the wool be pulled over our eyes still? For 4.999 (repeating of course) seasons we've had the cut to black and white logo and LOST, this time it's cut to white and black logo, is good beginning to prevail now that Jacob is "dead"?

But on to some questions regarding season 3....What the hell was the point of the "help me" in the cabin? And I echo the question of why did Jacob save Locke (but that was a good response about Jacob trying to give him a chance).

Annnnnnnnddddd....I really want to swallow the good end of a shotgun anytime Jack/Kate, Kate/Sawyer, Jack/Sawyer combos are on screen (I mean really, how much whining can you 3 sissies do, it takes any episode down a peg).

Annnnnnnndddd Part 2....Kind of bummed to see this is going the mythology route, was hoping it would be more sci-fi'ish (especially with the white screen making me think of mirror world entrance), but it will still be enjoyable.

KevJones said...

Loving the discussions already...what an awesome finale.

The first scene on the beach brought to mind Locke explaining backgammon to Walt. So it's Jacob and The guy in Black (Smokey?)who are in a rivalry, much like Linus vs Widmore, only on a much more God-like scale. I think that the alien theory Big brought up is still very much at play, Jacob and Smokey could be alien entities much like a Klaatu/Gort combo, with a free thinking (and maybe even very angry) Gort.

The reincarnation of the man in Black as John Locke put a whole new twist on the Canton-Rainier Van.

Rose, Bernard and Vincent seem to be the only people doing the logical thing. What a great way to tie up the loose end of their story, but i think we may still end up seeing Rose and Bernard becoming Adam & Eve.

I liked that Jacob was present at some of the most important points of the Losties lives What he said to Jack "All it needed was a little push" made me think that he was bringing them to the island for a grand reason, much larger than blowing up a bomb. Speaking of Jack he needs to look past his own selfish desires ("I want kate back" Thankfully sawyer gave hima good beating.

I hope Ben gets decapitated. Stabbing Jacob was a terrible idea, though it is easy to see that he was hurt by the "what about you?" comment. I doubt Jacob will actually be dead, though a double stabbing and ending up in a firepit is pretty convincing.

The paralleled stories of Free will in the face of Fate ( The bomb and the stabbing of Jacob) threw me off, i've always had a more fatalistic view of the show.

The fade to white made me think that next season is going to take place in the afterlife (LOL!), im not sure how they are going to survive a hydrogen bomb explosion, they shouldve taken Miles' advice and "thought it through."

All in all the Jacob storyline made this episode(s) my new personal favorites. What a great season it's been

Big, i'm looking forward to the Three Black Swans...please don't keep us i suspense for too long!

Aaron said...

Lots and lots and lots of questions:

Why did Jacob "allow" himself to be killed? Why did he answer Ben in what seemed to be a deliberately provocative way? Is he going Obi-Wan on us?

When/how did the ash circle get broken, allowing Jacob to escape? Is that why he was able to go off-Island to visit Hurley?

What's the deal with the cabin anyway? Why did he appear as an apparition when he had corporeal form at the statue? Why did he appear to be old when we saw a glimpse of him a couple seasons ago? Is there a reason or will that turn out to be a continuity error?

We're all assuming the guy from the beginning is Smokey, and it sure looks that way, but perhaps we should leave ourselves open to other possibilities, whatever they may be.

Why is Ellie able to sign off on the whole H-bomb plan without getting the okay from Jacob?

Did we ever decide why the Island time-skipped? Was it because Ben turned the wheel or because the O-6 left?

Wasn't it Eloise Hawking's idea to put the shoes on Locke's corpse? Wasn't that critical to Smokey's resurrection plan? Oops?

Capcom said...

LOL you'se guys! And great thoughts.

I have to agree DJ with "piddly BS". Haha, "stabitty stab"! X-D

Right Jles, God vs Devil, or maybe more generically so as not to disenfranchise any of the audience (j/k sort of), merely Good vs Evil (altho that insults the beliefs of those who believe that there is no such thing as evil, ah well).

One thing that bugs me, is that Ben couldn't have stabbed Jacob, if Jacob hadn't have walked up to him so close. Dumb move Jacob! :-) Did Jacob know that he would be killed? Did he need to be killed to come back stronger? But right Christie, how could he "just die". Stay tuned to 2010. :-(

Dakranll, maybe the ash keeps them away from each other too? For Jacob's safety probably? Or maybe it was the man in black in the cabin and Ben was mistaken as to who was in there? Whomever was in the cabin, the "help me" might have been a plea to get released from the prison of the confinement?

I kind of thought that when Jacob said "What about you?" to Ben, that he was trying to get Ben to verbalize something, not just to cast him aside. As if Jacob not directly speaking to Ben all along was a part of Ben's test overall, and he wasnted Ben to realize that. But I'm probably wrong.

I really like your, "Satan can't kill God, so he tries to "kill" God by eliminating belief." Dakranll!

Jason, good Q. Maybe if Jacob dying is a part of the big pic, white/good will indeed now be fulfilled in the playing out the the Destiny proclamation at the end. ???

I loved the Rose and Bernie show too Kev. They semed to put into their own words exactly what Jacob and the MIB were waying on the beach. And, "We're retired" from all that crap. :o)

Capcom said...

Oops, mised you Aaron. Maybe Hurley messed up the ash when he walked to the cabin?

As far as I could see, the D&C recap last night stated that the time skipping was caused by Ben knocking the wheel off balance when he turned it.

Chicagomike said...

Couple of thoughts,

1) Jacob didn't bother to defend himself to Ben, because the "loop hole" had been found and Jacob knew he was going to be killed.

2) I still believe there is a cyclical meaning behind all of this. I believe Jacob and this other guy may exist outside of the cycle of human life and be replaying it over and over again. With this iteration, Jacob brought man to the "island" trying to make "progress".

3) I think Jacob and this other dude represent Free Will vs Fate. Jacob believes man has choice and therefore has the potential to be good. The other guy believes that man is inherently bad and it is their Fate to always fall into evil.

4) I don't know if we can assume the bomb kills everyone or even really goes off on the island. The pocket of energy could contain or absorb the bombs blast. If exploding the bomb, truly was something that was "suppose" to happen, i.e. it was already part of the past, than there is no way any part of the island would be standing after a hydrogen bomb goes off.

5) How did the US military find this island in the fifties? How did Widmore and Eloise first come to the island?

6) Where the heck is Claire?

KevJones said...

One more thing...who is "they" and why are they coming? Aliens? Angels? Demons?

I don't think im gonna be able to study for my Math final tonight, too much Lost reflection to be done.

And Flashforward! finally an answer to the nagging question about those crazy ads! looks cool not sure it'll be the replacement for Lost that ABC seems to want but it does seem interesting nonetheless

Anonymous said...

Gina Marie

So I think that Jacob was in the cabin all that time "imprisoned" and that is why he asked John to help him. Apparently he was aging for the first time and maybe could've died if someone didnt come save him. Either Hurley or Locke must have broke the ash chain around the cabin when they visited. Notice it was the same ash that was in Jacobs fire pit inside of the foot.

It is so hard to believe but yet so obvious that this whole thing is coming down to a simple bible story. It is not about time travel, its about good vs evil and why God created humans knowing that they will ultimately be flawed. Black shirt guy said that he didnt understand why they keep doing this when all "they" do is fight, destroy, etc and it always ends the same way--Jacob said something like it only ends once I guess referring to when God will come back to the earth and shut this whole thing down and start over. Jacob is trying to prove that man is inherently good and black shirt is trying to prove that man is inherently bad but neither one of them can win with the other side still in existence so they are trying to destroy eachother so they can prove eachother wrong. I guess the end will be who dies, Jacob or Black Shirt, good or evil.

I really loved this episode. The only thing that was missing is an explanation for where the hell Claire is. Its funny that Kate said that is the reason she was going back but hasn't even mentioned her since they got to Dharmaville.

Any thoughts on the theory floating that Hurley is the key to this whole thing? Might have some weight to it considering how different Jacobs visit was with Hurley compared to the rest of them.

Juliette is a down chick. She would die so her man could be happy with is true love. So sweet.

2010 is a long way away but this last season is going to be stellar. They have no choice!

Aaron said...

The episode where Locke and Ben went to visit the Monster offers compelling clues to the effect that Locke=Smokey. When Ben signalled it, it didn't come; it couldn't, because it was standing right there next to him in the form of Locke! And when Ben falls through to the lower level, he's conveniently by himself, away from Locke, when the smoke appears.

Question though. If Locke=Smokey=Guy on the beach, and Smokey is the nemesis of Jacob, why did Smokey allow itself apparently to be a servant of the Others? The biggest such moment came when Ben gave the old dog whistle and Smokey bounded out of the bushes to smash Keamey's men. Is it because Smokey's interests (protect the Island) coincided with the Others'?

Jacob definitely halted Sayid so that Nadia would be killed, ensuring Sayid would return to the Island. It was the first hint in the episode that Jacob isn't always Dr. Nice.

RowanRaven said...

I'm thinking that it was not "Jacob's cabin" at all...but maybe it was SMOKEY in there. Maybe his entity said, "Help me" to Locke.

It does not make sense that it was Jacob supposedly trapped in there, when obviously he was gallivanting all over the damn globe!

It also would explain why Illiana panicks when she discovers the cabin empty. And if it really were "Jacob's cabin", then Richard and Ben would not have taken Faux-Locke (aka Smokey) to the statue's foot. Yes? Or no?

Capcom said...

Jacob and the MIB kind of remind me of that ST:TOS episode where Apollo kind of tells them how the gods play with humans. :-)

Also, it was pretty neat to realize that it was the MIB as Smokey/Alex telling Ben to do everything that Locke/MIB told him to do, so the killing could happen. MIB was working non-stop to get this thing to happen, sheesh.

Yes, it does seem more like it was Smokey/MIB trapped in the cabin. Once he got out for good (after possibly being trapped as Smokey too) all heck broke out.

Capcom said...

Hey, good points Aaron about Locke and Smokey and Smokey's appearance (or not)!

NeverlessWonder said...

First time poster here - Just want to say that for a long time now I've had an appreciation for the insight and speculation here. Now, enough time wasted on introductions, let's begin:

Here are my thoughts on the main conflict in this show - Jacob and Richard = good, 'Loophole' man (Mr. Black) and Smokey = bad. So, the leader of each side seems to have a sidekick. I'm not convinced that Mr. Black = Smokey.

Jacob wanted to die. It was his destiny. If he really was such an advocate of free will and wanted Ben to make his own choice, then he wouldn't have said what he said. I'm sure Jacob knew what Ben was there for, and if he didn't want to die then he wouldn't have said what he did. I'm reminded of Aslan (Chronicles of Narnia), or Jesus going willingly to their death because it was fated. Both Aslan and Jesus were ressurected, so I don't think Jacob's finished quite yet.

Remember how such a big deal was made about how everyone had to return to the island? How they had to recreate how it all happened? It's why Jack had to wear his Dad's shoes, even though Christian's body was still on the island. It's also why Jacob gave Hurley Charlie's guitar, despite the latter's body still being on the island. That's what the guitarcase is all about.

Speaking of Christian... all along he's been reanimated by Mr. Black. Along with Claire, and the other dead people who have made appearances. Mr. Eko's brother, for instance.

All this egyptian stuff... the statue, the temple, the hieroglyphics... and yet, Jacob doesn't look egyptian. Who is he?

The people Big Mouth speculated as The New Dharma Iniative, I think are actually Jacob's mainland followers. Jacob tried to bring Sayiid back to the Island by "killing" Nadia, but when that wasn't enough he sent his followers to capture him and bring him by force.

Jacob's mainland followers also picked up Miles in their van and tried to dissuade him from accepting Widmore's offer. Which means Jacob didn't want Miles on the Island, but why? Well, he did convince his daddy to trust Faraday and evacuate the Island, as well as later on saving his father from the Incident. Now why would Jacob not want those things to happen?

Aaron... great point about Smokey there. What side is he on? Or is he a neutral player? A tool to be used by either side? I'm gonna have to think about that one.

NeverlessWonder said...

Rowan Raven, I agree completely. That was not Jacob's cabin, but rather, Mr. Black's, or Smokey's.

Capcom said...

Hey NW, welcome!! Very good point about Aslan! I also felt that Jacob pretty much walked right up to his death willingly. And hopefully, just as the Witch had no idea, the MIB is also clueless as to how what he thinks is his victory, might not be at a victory for him at all.

Aaron said...

Thanks Capcom and NeverlessWonder.

Hey, any Flannery O'Connor buffs out there? I imagine Doc Jensen will dive into it (the book Jacob was reading), but I'm impatient.

Also can't wait for someone to break down the tapestry Jacob was weaving.

Interesting to think that it was Smokey Man in the cabin all that time, being denied human form, but it gets really complicated to follow all the connotations of that. For instance, that would mean Smokey Man told Locke to turn the wheel and was giving Richard/Ben orders.

Has Jacob really just been sitting in that damn foot all that time? Or does he just manifest himself from time to time? I kind of have to believe the latter.

Also, it was odd that once they were in Jacob's sanctum, they were able to look up and see the stars, because wouldn't people from the outside have been able to see the torchlight? Either a mistake by the writers or more likely the sanctum exists in a some sort of different plane of existence/it's an illusion created by Jacob, who likes some fresh air.

Jason said...

If we're saying Smokey was trapped in the cabin, how do we explain his presence throughout the series?

Chicagomike said...

Lostpedia has a breakdown of the tapestry.'s_tapestry

Chicagomike said...

When the incident was first explained it was stated that Dharma had to in case the whole area in cement to contain it. This is similar to what was done in chernobyl to contain radiation. Which leads me to believe that the "incident" actually was the bomb and not the pocket of energy.

Another clue is that when Desmond turned the fail safe key the result left a crater. However, we have seen that the pocket of energy is a magnetic force not an explosive force. This leads me to believe that the protocol was not to contain the pocket of energy but was to slowly release the energy of the hydrogen bomb every 108 minutes.

If the hydrogen bomb energy was contained/delayed to some degree by the electromagnetic energy, it may have given Dharma enough time to encapsulate it in concrete and build the hatch to slowly release the bomb energy.

By the time Desmond turned the fail safe key enough of the bombs energy had been released every 108 minutes so as to not have the full release be as catastrophic as a full hydrogen bomb blast. However, it still left a very large crater and was a white flash visible to everyone on the island.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, everyone. So Ben stabbing Jacob was the "Fork in The Outlet?"

I still think this is about free will vs. determinism, that Jack and everyone else set off the bomb because they were resigned to knowing they had to do it. Aside from Jack, the rest of the gang knew they had to be a part of it, but Jack was the one, as always, needing to "fix things."

Since the last mobisode with Christian talking to Vincent, I thought Smokey was in Locke from episode 1. For awhile. Watching Walt. Vincent ran right past Jack, I think Smokey went into Vincent then zeroed in on Locke and, at that moment that he took Locke over, Locke realized he could move his gold-toe sock. My pet theory was that the real Locke was in the crate, because Locke 2.0 just seemed to creepy and knowing.

Symmetry again, if S5 echoes S2, not just with the explosions of the Swan, but at the beginning, Jacob weaving, Desmond on the excercise bike. Circles and loops.

I'm a big fan of Juliet (sorry, Poohbear), but this show truly is a testament to the actors' abilities. Elizabeth Mitchell made Juliet the most believable character in her last two seasons. I never even saw the foreshadowing, her blouse was a redshirt for the past four episodes. I thought of the well by the Orchid, too. If the well was Jacob's well, is this Smokey's well? Puts the black in Swan. We saw the white light when Locke descended, we saw mostly black when Juliet fell.

Going with the determinism angle, now we know Juliet's real reason for being on the Island. To trigger the detonator. She was the other fail safe, if you will. Yes, its only TV, but damn it all, Mitchell deserves an Emmy and it was perfect that they cut away from James as he sobbed, not doing a let's linger on Kate as her lip quivers hoo-hah. I was enthralled by how the entire final scenes were so well choreographed.

Nadia was nothing to Jacob. Just as the 815 survivors played out certain roles, the ones who were sucked out of the plane in the air were not even redshirts, they were Nadias. Her death made Sayid hell-bent on revenge only after Ben manipulated him with that photo. Watch that episode with Sayid and see how Ben smiles as he walks away from Sayid, knowing he has a new ally. (The episode where Ben ends up in Tunisia).

That opening scene, the man in black made me think that he was a crazy-looking older version of Richard. How did the Black Rock end up on the opposite side of the Island in the middle of the jungle? Did Smokey then inhabit Magnus Hanso?

And, I agree with many of you, this time around, I have no clue what to expect next year. I suppose the clues are in S1 for the sake of symmetry.

Oh, I think Hurley made his decision because the guitar represented Charlie. And, did anyone else think that Jacob was more interested in Jin than Sun? That it was Jin, not Sun, meant to be a part of destiny in 1977? By that, I mean, why was she the only O6er to stay in 2007?

The loophole? Having two Locke's so that Richard the advisor has a leap of faith and believes in a ressurection?

I'd have to watch it again, but were Juliet's (and the season's)last words Sawyer's famous son of a bitch line? The episode defined the great actors from those just doing their job. Michael Emerson is still great, but Josh Holloway should NOT end up in barbarian or Vin Diesel-ish films when LOST is said and done.

Enjoying all the comments here, past and future. Peace out.

Anonymous said...


Jacob visited Sayid before he returned to the island too. After they were rescued, he was reunited with Nadiya and later during the whole 'the O6 need to get back' part Ben visits him while he's working (woodwork stuff) and by that point Nadiya was dead.

Capcom said...

Aaron, Blackswan over at TLC found this on the book: "Most critics view ‘‘Everything That Rises Must Converge’’ as a prime example of O’Connor’s literary and moral genius. The story exemplifies her ability to expose human weakness and explore important moral questions through everyday situations...O’Connor utilizes biting irony to expose the blindness and ignorance of her characters. The story’s title refers to an underlying religious message that is central to her work: she aims to expose the sinful nature of humanity that often goes unrecognized in the modern, secular world." found this here: "

Last night I also found that the title of O'Conner's book that Jacob was reading is a phrase from the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, who was a philosopher into "the unfolding of the material cosmos, from primordial particles to the development of life, human beings and the noosphere, and finally to his vision of the Omega Point in the future, which is 'pulling' all creation towards it. He was a leading proponent of orthogenesis, the idea that evolution occurs in a directional, goal driven way. Such theories are generally termed teleological views of evolution." We've got a while to dig deeper into that. :o)

I also thought the stars' visibility was interesting. Thanks for the tapestry info Chicagomike!

Like Miles wondered, maybe it's now the combination of the energy and the bomb effects that have to be controlled?

I just about died when C&D mentioned Sayid and Hurley listening to radio signals from another time. Yeah! It wasn't just an Oldies station! :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Flannery O'Connor's work was on my short-list of writers that would show up.

@Chicagomike, I agree with your thoughts there. If only because 1977 never matched up with what we thought was the Incident. The Orientation tape is copyright 1980. So it took two-three years to finish (re)build the Swan. They might have come up with the numbers protocal at random, taking them from the Hatch lid. The same could be said for the numbers on the vaccine bottles.

About Jacob being trapped in the cabin, what if he was put in the cabin(for whatever reason) after the crash of 815? I, too, think Jacob escaped through the broken ring of ash that was made by Hurley. Why else have Hurley even see the cabin?

Last thing, I know its morbid, but the sight of Locke falling as Jacob read his book was classic. (And more determinism, the thought here being that Jacob could have kept John from being thrown out the window in the first place).

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, I missed the bit about the radio signals. Fill me in, please. Also, was that Latin in your very first post?

Capcom said...

I know, Juliet's red shirt, I was hoping it didn't mean anything. :-(

Yes, she said SOB. :o)

Capcom said...

Hi Wayne! D&C quickly mentioned during the precap, the fact that H & S were on the beach hearing a transmissin from the 1940s, while they were talking about all the time skipping things. I can't remember the exact words, but to me, TPTB hinted that it was possible that H & S actually were hearing a transmission from the past...or that the island was in the past, so that they heard it. Basically. :o)

Yes, the latin was what my caps said that Ricardus said to Ilana. There ate a couple different translations out there, but they are similar enough. Someone posted it above.

Chicagomike said...

I believe next season will end with us seeing the whole thing start over again. I see the show turning out to be Matrix esque. The world continues to repeat itself ala a large time traveling paradox with some beings/gods existing outside the cycle on this island observing and trying to influence man.

Capcom said...

You know how sometimes the things that the Others do seem to be actually very bad? I was wondering if sometimes when they think that Jacob is speaking to them, that it's really the MIB telling them what to do??? And what he says is bad, m'kay?

Anonymous said...

Couple things first did it seem like Jacob when he interacted with the survivors gave them something.
Jack-apollo bar
Kate- Lunch Box
John- Life
Jin and sun-advice or somthing like that
Sayid- well that is where this point ends because I do not think he gave him anything.
Just an idea.

Also how would Juliette know that Jack said live together or die alone?

KevJones said...

So as i read these im coming to a idea, along the lines of this: The people on the Black Rock were brought by Jacob, so were the passengers on 815, potentially as parts of his "experiment" on human nature....but who (besides Locke) has been manipulated by the guy in Black? Was it his voice Locke heard calling out for help in the cabin instead of Jacob's? Ben claimed to be working for Jacob but clearly ended up being manipulated by the MiB. So how far back do his attempts go and who else tried and failed to kill Jacob (if anyone)?

I agree with ChicagoMike that it could be very much like the Matrix, or BSG in that This has happened before,and (potentially) will happen again, the difference could be in The Variables according to Faraday; the time travelling 815 survivors like Jacob said, you have a choice

JLes said...

How do you guys interpret the opening scene of the show? I think that Jacob and The man in Black (they're calling him Samuel in a few other, i'm gonna start) are talking about being able to change the past/future.

BLOND MAN: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I am. How did they find the Island?

BLOND MAN: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

BLOND MAN: You are wrong.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

BLOND MAN: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

[The gray-haired man stares at his compatriot.]

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?


GRAY-HAIRED MAN: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

BLOND MAN: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Always nice talking to you, Jacob.

JACOB: Nice talking to you, too.

Jacob is convinced he can change things.

Loophole Of Space & Time

Capcom said...

I can't remember if Juliet was told about "live together" or not, or if it was mentioned while she was around. Good point.

That's what I meant Kev about wondering whether it might have actually been the MIB telling the Others what to do sometimes, and not Jacob.

Jles, I wonder what "it only ends once" means. The MIB says it always ends the same, so it doesn't mean that. So does it mean that no matter how many times we go around the timeloops, there is only one major timeline outcome? Like course correction? Or could it be more metaphorical, such as, the only end is that humans just keep on trying to do their best no matter what, if they are given the chance, so that's why I(Jacob) want to keep giving them the chance?

JLes said...

That's basically the question I'm wondering too. I'm gonna speculate that the "end" is exactly that. The Apocalypse. The "end" of human civilization. Isn't that what the Valenzetti equation (the numbers) was trying to predict?
If you think broadly about it, the Apocalypse can only happen once, and anything that happens before it is only "progress" towards preventing it or changing it.
I'm guessing that Samuel (MIB) thinks that humans, by nature, are corrupt and will eventually kill themselves off (also Valenzetti, right?) and Jacob thinks that he can prevent the Apocalypse by proving that humans are "good".

I would say that roughly 90% of what I just wrote is grounded in complete and utter guesswork, but at least it ties in nicely with the over-arching theme of God vs. Satan, Good vs. Evil, Black vs. White.

If you populate the island with only "good people", "chosen people", and wait for the rest of the world to kill themselves off, you can repopulate the earth with "good" people and save humankind from The Apocalypse.

Anonymous said...

Segundo said...

Wonder! Nice to see your post here. Great thoughts! I agree that the cabin has been MIB's this whole time. Maybe a prison Jacob trapped him in.

So MIB/Smokey making efforts to find a loophole... Does Jacob try and fix loopholes? Did he recognize the loophole and try to counter act it with our Losties placing the bomb in the source of the energy? Did everyone die as Ricardus stated? When we've seen the white flashes in the past, haven't they always eluded to skips in time? Is Juliette bringing the bomb through the flash to a time/place Jacob can counteract MIB's loophole efforts? Perhaps to the day Desmond turns the failsafe (our first white flash right?) Could there be a battle going on on the other side of the island that as of yet has gone sight unseen? I find it hard to believe that Jughead nullified this entire season. I don't think it erased the future incidents. What happened to the statue? Was jughead the cause of it's destruction leaving only the foot? What else could it be?

Anonymous said...

Segundo said...

Maybe "They're coming" is our losties traveling through the flash I stated above?

Chicagomike said...

Ilana appears to know who Jacob is when he asks her to help him.

JLes said...

Just to reinforce the theory I was trying to offer before....a blurb from Doc Jensen:

"There is a single end; everything before then is progress. Chardin believed his Omega entity was basically Jesus Christ himself. His phrase, “everything that rises must converge,” is a poetical expression of a key Christian idea known in the Greek apokatastasis. It’s like the opposite of apocalypse, or rather, what comes after apocalypse. I’m not trying to get all religious on you, but it is what it is: apokatastasis is the idea that in the end, Satan will be defeated and that all of creation will be redeemed and unified under Christ. “Now is the judgment of the world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself.” (John 12:31-32) Or, again, to use a line from the show: “He who will save us all.” That, my friends, is the answer, translated from Richard Alpert’s Latin, to Ilana’s riddle: “What lies in the shadow of the statue?’"

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, no, no, I was kidding, asking if your gibberish at the very top was Latin, ha ha.

I've been mentioing in previous posts that I do believe that the loop is 1977-2007, its been happening over and over and S1-S5 is us seeing the latest version unfold.

The idea of good people in the final utopia makes sense, there is so much to the "we're the good guys" talk, and there just seems to be a reason for the amount of Others there are. Yet the DI were supposed to start the utopia--people who followed TLE might know more about this--but, frankly, the DI seemed to be a bunch of asshats. The idiot scientists and the drones. Worker drones. No utopia there. Seriously, the DI era was not at all what I expected.

"It only ends once" might just mean the loop goes back to where it starts, the worm eating its tail. I guess I'm saying the one single end simply becomes a new beginning. Yet, Eloise in 2007 wore a pin where the worm was NOT eating its hind end.

@Capcom, thx for the info on the radio signals. If you recall, as that episode ended, we saw the stars, including the Big Dipper. If the Island moved at random--if you use the FDW you move the Island purposefully--we saw on Eloise's chart that the Island was once off the coast of Florida. 1945 was the first incidents mentioned in modern times re: the Bermuda Triangle (5 fighter jets disappeared and a follow-up search & rescue ship blipped away, as well).

I'll say it again, we'll never see a show like this on network TV again.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just time for a quick drive by thought right now:

The evidence was there all along for somebody to be an impostor. The Bad Twin. Our Mutual Friend. And most significantly, Expose, where it was revealed that Mr. LaShade was "The Cobra" all along! Doesn't that snakey little twist fit nicely with Bigmouth's Apep ideas?

NeverlessWonder said...

Great to see you as well Segundo! I had hoped you still looked here.

Anyway, I was wondering about that new show.. Flash Forward or something? I'm not very good at catching everything in quick flashes as they like to do in commercials... but did I see Richard Alpert and Penny Widmore there at the end?

KoreAmBear said...

Oh man, comment period overload. So many thoughts, so many directions to go. Lucky we have 9 months to have these thoughts percolate and crystalize. *sigh*

Well, I do have to note that John Locke was the philsopher that thought man was inherently good, as Jacob seems to believe. Ironically, Locke is now inhabited by the MIB, the guy who thinks man is essentially corrupt, like Jeremy Bentham or Thomas Hobbes.

It would be cool if the MIB's name were Esau. Yet in the Bible, Jacob was the liar and the guy who stole Esau birthright and blessing. That doesn't seem to work. It seems more like Jacob is God and MIB is the Devil. Or, are they Randolph and Mortimer from Coming to America, doing experiments on people's lives for $1?

I actually thought that Kate had some redeeming qualities in last night's ep. After going completely opposite Jack, she decided to back the guy she has always been loyal to, even at the cost of being back in handcuffs. I think Jack is not just thinking of Kate but in his "fix it" mode, he is thinking of the people who he thought had died -- Shannon, Boone, Claire, Ana Lucia, etc.

That was creepy when Locke mentioned to Ben about "dealing with the rest of the Ajira passengers". Then we find out that it's the MIB inside of Locke.

Jacob's Korean was pretty good, with a foreign accent of course. It was a little better than Charlotte's. Did we ever get the back story of how Charlotte knew Korean? A buddy of mine made the scene right after Jacob gave Jin and Sun advice and he walked away, my buddy was holding up a champagne glass. Royalties, holla!

Didn't someone mention that Ben had cancer and that's why he could't be the leader? What was that about?

Hurley had $227 in cash. After discussing the significance of 27 (1977 to 2004), is this significant? 2 x 27?

How did MIB possessed Locke not know that Jacob lived in the toe, that Richard had to tell him?

What happened to Ilana in Russia? Was that Chernobyl?

So now that Lapidus is a candidate, will Jacob resurrect using Frank's body? Will Frank button up his shirt?

How many people have been impaled now? Boone, Frogurt and Phil? Am I missing someone?

Sounds like "Everything That Rises Must Converge" is going to be part of my summer reading list.

Jonathan Gaskill said...

I apologize in advance if anything I say has already been stated above. I'm on my lunch break, so I wanted to get some thoughts out while I had time.

So after watching the episode last night and doing a bit of Internet research afterward, here's what I conclude so far (can't wait for next season to blow all these ideas out of the water--thanks Darlton!)

JACOB AND SMOKEYSo it seems like this whole show is about the ongoing struggle between Jacob and the Smoke Monster (one white, one black--check out their shirt colors at the very beginning). Previously I had wondered about Jacob's will being different than the Island's, but now I'm thinking that the difference is not there but between Jacob and the Smoke Monster (wonder who Smokey was portraying at the beginning of the episode). This "game" has apparently been going on for a while--at least long before the Black Rock ever arrived. But Jacob has a goal in mind, it just might take him several tries to get it finalized. Until then each attempt is "progress". This reminds me of the Oracle in the Matrix and her attempts to bring peace, putting up with the cycles because she intuitively believes that one day the cycles will end. Jacob is very much like the Oracle in that respect.

CHRISTIAN SHEPHARDSeeing the Smoke Monster impersonate Locke, as well as the revelation of the opening in the ash circle, leads me to believe that the Smoke Monster is impersonating Christian just like he did Locke. If that's the case then we have to go back to the very beginning and reinterpret all of Christian's appearances to get a better idea of what Smokey's plans are. In the episode where Christian takes the DHARMA picture off the wall and shows it to Sun and Frank, Locke was conveniently nowhere around. Later on in that same episode, Smokey was very busy with Ben--first being Locke, then his smokey self, then Alex (who better to impersonate in order to convince Ben to obey Locke?). And how about even further back to the episode where Locke comes to Jacob's cabin and sees Christian and Claire? Why couldn't both of those have been Smokey? He's smoke, so why can't he impersonate more than one person at a time? Obviously, he wants Aaron off the Island. Is Aaron's destiny to somehow grow up and destroy the Smoke Monster once and for all? Aaron in the Bible was the mouthpiece for God, who brought destruction to Egypt. Perhaps history is about to repeat itself. Wonder who Moses will be...

EGYPTIAN MYTHOLOGYBased on what I've been able to piece together (mostly from Wikipedia), the statue is Sobek. Sobek was the avatar of Amun. When Amun morphed into Amun-Ra (the big kahuna), Sobek morphed into Sobek-Ra. However, I don't think that Jacob is Sobek. Sobek was a cohort of Horus, who seems to be a little better fit for Jacob. Horus had an ongoing battle with Set, which seems just like the battle between Jacob and the Smoke Monster. Set was the god of chaos and destruction, and the gods eventually sided with Horus. I'm not sure if all of this indicates that there is someone even higher on the totem pole than Jacob, but with one more season to go, I wouldn't rule it out.

THE LOOPHOLEBen is the Smoke Monster's weapon. Just as Ben and Widmore somehow are prevented from killing each other, so it also seems to be between Jacob and Smokey. But that doesn't mean that Smokey can't get someone else to do it. Smokey/Locke tells Jacob at the end that he went through great lengths to find a loophole, which indicates to me that many of the things we've witnessed since season 1 have been part of his plan. We've seen that Jacob likes to bring people to the Island for some purpose of his. But what if the plane crash was not Jacob's doing? What if that was Smokey's way of introducing a new element to the mix that he hoped would screw up Jacob's plans? Perhaps the DHARMA Initiative was Jacob's contribution, but the plane and its passengers were Smokey's. And what if all those scenes where Jacob appeared to the survivors in their past was not really Jacob but Smokey in disguise? He is handpicking certain people that he wants to come to the Island. Looking at everything we know in hindsight, it would appear that time travel is the main device used by Smokey to create a loophole. His plan is to bring people to the Island--one of them being Locke, his own choice for the new leader of the Others (using the compass to help convince Richard)--who will eventually go back in time and create the scenario in which Ben (yet another of Smokey's choices as leader of the Others)--will supplant Charles as leader of the Others. Neither Ben nor Locke were supposed to be leaders of the Others. This explains why Jacob never appeared to Ben, because Ben was not his choice. And most likely Smokey was banking on the fact that Jacob wouldn't appear to Ben, fueling Ben's feelings of inadequacy (which was probably the reason Smokey picked him in the first place) and making Ben that much easier to manipulate when it came time to have him kill Jacob. And yet, I can't help but feel like Jacob allowed all this to happen because he intuitively knows that it must in order for his larger plan to succeed (again, just like the Oracle in the Matrix who was willing to die because she believed that Neo would ultimately succeed).

THE ASH CIRCLEI'm not exactly sure what's going on with the cabin, but it seems even more likely now that it does not belong to Jacob--especially since Jacob apparently resides in the shadow of the statue. On that note, it's very likely that the ash circle was used to keep Smokey inside it rather than Jacob. We've already seen that Smokey stays clear of banyan trees, possibly a reference to banyan trees being considered as a type of tree of life/knowledge in some mythologies. In Guam (pay close attention, as Guam was referenced this season), there are protectors of banyan trees called taotaomona, which are ancient spirits that haunt the mountains and wild places of the Mariana Islands (wonder if that's what the Whispers are). Anyway, what if the ash circle is actually the burnt remnants of a banyan tree, designed to keep Smokey in? If so, the next question is who let Smokey out, when did it happen, and what was the reason? Somehow Ben had been deceived from the beginning that if he was ever going to visit Jacob, that's where he would need to go. It seems that most of the communication between Jacob and Ben was accomplished with Richard's help. I think it's likely that Richard has never seen or even heard of the cabin. I also think it's now suspect whether or not Jacob ever appeared in the cabin, which would mean it was someone else who cried out to Locke to help him. Jacob seems much too powerful to have cried out in such a pathetic manner.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@KorewAmBear Off-topic, you mind if I swipe your phrase 'percolate and crystalize'? Great story title, I have a list, it will be used one day. Currently I'm writing "Night of The Two Moons" and I had that title in my commonplace book since 2004.

Kacie said...

Well, I think the Flannery O'Connor book that Jacob was reading further showed the philosophy that he hinted at in his first conversation with his mysterious nemesis. I wrote about that on my blog:

KoreAmBear said...

Absolutely, Wayne -- the gibberish I write is public domain. Percolate-- coffee reference, something grown on the island; Crystalize -- connotations of ice, like what polar bears like. LOL.

Chicagomike said...

After more thought I see lots of comparisons to the Matrix with Jacob being the Oracle and the MIB being the Architect. On the wikipedia page for the Architect I found the following quotes.

In the third film, the Oracle explains to Neo that the true purpose of the Architect is to balance the mathematical equations that make up the programming of the Matrix, and he is unable to see the world as anything beyond a series of equations. It is also because of this that he is unable to comprehend choice and free will and cannot see the results of such choices as they are no more than variable factors in an equation to him."

"In the final scene of the film the Architect joins the Oracle, commenting that she "played a very dangerous game", referring to the Oracle's role in guiding Neo as he defied the Architect's system of control. He then promises her that the humans who desire release from the Matrix will gain it. When she asks if he will keep his word he replies, "What do you think I am... human?"."

Anonymous said...

What if the ash ring was not to keep someone trapped in there but to keep someone out?

Anonymous said...

Gina Marie

Is Jacob trying to disprove the valenzetti equation? Did MIB come up with it and Jacobs task is to disprove it and confirm that mankind is necessary/well-suited/worth it?

KoreAmBear said...

Doc Jensen has one theory that links Jacob to Set the Egyptian god of chaos and evil who morphed into crocodiles and hippos, linked to infertility and partial to fish and lettuce (well, we saw that delicious and fresh piece of fish filet grill on a hot black rock, then Jacob used what looked like a lettuce bed to hold his filet). I really hope Jacob is not evil -- as I really liked the philanthropic way he gallavanted around the mainland.

"They're coming" -- does that refer to Jack and the 1977 castaways whom Jacob "touched" (OK, so DJ says Sun wasn't actually touched - maybe that's why she isn't in 1977, I'll have to go back and see that), Ilana and Bram's crew, Eloise and C-Widdy, or none of the above?

Jason said...

Just a small Locke morsel I thought up. In Claire's dream during season 1 she sees Locke "playing" with tarrot cards (perhaps Locke has a hand in the fate of the universe and is dealing those cards out in her dream?) he looks up, and he has one black eye, one white eye. Could this signify a Good Locke vs. Bad Locke scenario in season 6?

And I've been thinking about the explosion and the fade to white. I can't help but think of Donnie Darko, the split into a parrallel universe at the start, him working to correct what went wrong or the universe is a goner, and then travelling back in time after that crisis had been averted and that parallel universe was closed. I think the first 15 episodes of Season 6 LOST will end with the white background/black text LOST and I'm thinking we just may see the series finale end with Jack saving the day, only to wake up (ala Donnie Darko) back on the beach right after his plane crashed, LOST (and we are finally back to the black background/white LOST letters to signify the universe is saved).

Capcom said...

Wayne, you kidder, you get me every time! X-D

Aha, good point Jles about The End! And thinks for posting the Jensen stuff too, that looks promising.

I agree Wayne, TPTB have broken the TV mold with this one. BTW, a note on seeing the stars in the foot...many of the main pyramids have these long "windows" that tunnel from center areas thru to the outside, and are aimed at specific star coordinates in the sky. I'll see if there are any good screencaps of that scene.

Sweet about your buddy Koreambear! Ew, could that have been Chrenobyl?! When did that happen, in the 1980s?

I like what you're saying JG. :-)

Fantastic ideas and thoughts everyone! I'm thinking that I might go back and read Bad Twin again, in case I might catch something more now. Heck it only takes about an hour to read. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

light jacob vs dark jacob = the war

KevJones said...

Sorry Cap I missed that in my rush to post

Jason, I never quite grasped Donnie Darko like that, the possibility of an alternate reality in S6 makes my mouth water, although it would be strikingly similar to a plot point of Abrams' new Star Trek movie which makes me think that going that route could be too easy, as fun as it would be.

KoreaMBear, Jacob did touch Sun and Jin on the shoulder, he didn't touch Jack or Hurley but he did give them items with subtle island implications.

Anonymous said...

I knew that that scene where Locke explains the rules of Backgammon to Walt had some significance.

Greg Tramel said...

light jacob (aka lucifer) = continuous timeline with 1 end, go with the flow making free will choices along the way but what happened happened and what's done is done, no doovers, no loopholes, no going back to fix things, only the present is what counts

dark jacob (aka MIB aka smoke monster aka satan)= illusion (can't quite eat it's tail but close enough to continue trying in vain)of time loops for chances at artificial redemption and resurrection because of man's evil and original sin ways, misleads with the circle of life mythology as fate ensues, trickster, false chances at doovers

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, you have that comic that Richard showed Locke (the link, I mean), maybe there's a story in there that deals with what we saw last night. Hmnn?????

Locke playing backgammon with Walt was Jacob inside Locke learning more about Walt. You know, the leaders are young when they are chosen. There is a lot in Claire's dream but even more in the sweat lodge dream where Boone is wheeling Locke around the Oceanic terminal. Still one of the surreal scenes from the show.

@KoreAmBear, Chernobyl was 1986, April, if I recall correctly. I'm sure we'll find out why Ilana was bandaged up. Russia is always covering up nuclear accidents.

I believe Jacob touched Jin, not Sun.

I'll be in Indianapolis all weekend signing books at Borders. I'm hoping that the Greyhound bus driver doesn't get chosen by Jacob to make the trip even longer. And wetter.

As always, enjoying the comments. Take care, gang of sickies (to borrow Capcom's tagline).

Greg Tramel said...

dark jacob aka bad twin

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

light jacob aka horus

dark jacob aka set

Anonymous said...

Dakranii here, I forgot my password.
Jacob touched both Jin and sun. He had a hand on each of their shouders as they stood side by side.

Be also touched jack. As he handed him the Apollo bar their hands touched.

Hurley I'm not so sure about, I'll have to rewatch.

lockerocks said...


I sat with mouth agape for the last 20 minutes. Love it.

Random thoughts, sorry if they are a repeat of above.

* Who is Illana? How does Jacob know her? Was she one of the originals (i.e. Richard)?

* Everytime I see the cabin, all I can think of is the dream sequence of Locke's where he sees Horace cutting the tree down and he explains he is building a cabin for he and the Mrs. Any significance?

* Was anyone else completely turned on by the Jack vs. Sawyer fight? How hot was that? :)

* Juliet is finally growing on me. Well, was . . . maybe. I actually buy her and Sawyer as a couple. Very sad to see Sawyer trying to save her, yet cute when he said "Where do you think you're going, blondie?" :(

* Vincent - yay! Rose and Bernard seemed to be the only ones on the entire island with any sense about them. LEAVE THINGS ALONE! Love the Castaway look on Bernard. Rose was as quick-witted as ever.

* @Anon - Juliet was with the group that went to the radio tower when Rose told Jack he'd better not say "Live together, die alone". Pretty sure that's how she knew about that.

* Jacob - wow, finally. I think most of us expected an older man so it was exciting to see him about the same age as Richard. So, why did the MIB want to kill Jacob? They sure seemed cordial for being supposed enemies. It must have been really bad for the guy to go 400 years through time and space(or however long) to kill a guy. Also, significant to the fact that Ben can't kill Widmore?

* So Locke was a "candidate". Frank is a candidate as well. I like KoreAmBear's theory that since MIB took over Locke's body, Jacob will take over Frank's. Maybe that will get him to grow his beard back.

* Is Claire really dead? We assume she is because she was in the cabin, but we never actually saw her die. As I recall, we saw the deaths of everyone else who was zombified. I'm not convinced.

* When exactly was the video with Chang and Faraday made? Chang didn't seem to know Faraday when they met in the Orchid so did it happen after the Incident? I am definitely thinking the bomb was the incident, it was supposed to happen all along. Faraday was right . . . whatever happened, happened.

* Last, but not least: I think the significance of the white background at the end mirrors the white sky/flash when the island skipped through time. The bomb worked. However, as stated above, it was always supposed to happen that way. :)~

Loophole Of Space & Time - love it.

See y'all in 2010!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@lockerocks, I think Big will have several posts before 2010. (I'm going to hate when its no longer the double-aughts, i.e., zeros. This comes from Jethro refering to James Bond as Double-Aught Seven on the Beverly Hillbillies. Damn decade went by quick.) Anyhow, Bigmouth also has another blog called I HATE MY DVR. Big is sneaky, he'll post and not tell anybody, ha ha.

Things still unanswered, like Claire's whereabouts. Will we ever know why women couldn't give birth on the Island by 2001 when Juliet arrived? What was up with the branding Juliet got for killing Pickett? Why was Jacob writing lists, Pickett had mentioned Jack wasn't even on Jacob''s list. Room 23? The interest in Walt? We will be left to our own devices on some of these things. Room 23 might be a leftover from the DI LSD dude. Why the heck didn't we see Ben's crush, Annie, before the evac? Why were there tornado watches on my television screen for the finales of S2, S3 and S5?

@Greg, yea, bad twin. But didn't the MIB seem to be a crazier version of Richard Alpert?

KoreAmBear said...

OK I rewatched. Jacob definitely touched Hurley across the guitar case. In fact one of Hurley's locks (no pun intended) started moving as Jacob took his hand back off the guitar and about to get off the cab.

Jacob also touched Sayid briefly on the shoulder as soon as Nadia got hit. Very subtle but he did it.

And yes, Jacob touched both Jin and Sun on their shoulder areas in congratulating/advising them.

One big light bulb that hit me tonight. It's about Doc's theory that Jacob might not actually be good. Was that fish that Jacob caught and ate, a RED HERRING? Come on, was it? Would be a complete red herring that we think Jacob is good -- I mean he sure seems that way, right?

KoreAmBear said...

Actually, some people have noted this in the LOST blog universe but it might have been a red herring that was also cooking on a black rock. So maybe The Black Rock is the red herring - something we thought was significant that really isn't, and had diverted us off the path. And that definition, which corrected my recent understanding of red herring -- would not support that Jacob is in fact not good because that's not a red herring --where you thought one thing, but it turned out to be completely the opposite (that's closer to irony). A red herring is just something that attracted you and seemed important, which turned out to be insignificant and drew away from relevant discourse.

Greg Tramel said...

my wife is rejoicing lost is over for another season, little does she know it is NEVER over

btw, i JUST read doc jensen's articlewarped minds think alike

great thoughts we are everybody!, wayne have fun and sell lots of books

more later whether you want it or not, LOL

Lizzie said...

Wayne Allen Sallee: "I'll say it again, we'll never see a show like this on network TV again."

This is probably the one thing we know as an absolute...

Greg Tramel said...

locke in a box from planet sirius = osiris in a box from planet claire (we know (s)he came from there)

Capcom said...

Haha! I had that song on my head last week GT! It's played at the end of that Monsters movie, and it really stuck. X-D

Roger that Wayne! There are many similarities with the stories in that commic. For example, a guy wants to redo a day and change the construction of a bridge so that it doesn't crash and kill people(March Has 32 Days), and another one where this couple time travels and appears and disappears in a suburb (The Travelers).(

Have fun in Indianapolis Wayne! I've got relatives there, too bad I couldn't drive up to meet you.

I'm wondering if maybe the bomb didn't go off at all, perhaps the Casimir energy just blew and went white, like it did with Des, and everyone will be back somwhere even Juliet (even tho she had a red shirt on). Heheh, it will be like that episode of Futurama where the universe gets destroyed and Fry, Uhura, Big Blue, Hawking, etc. all end up in the vast white nothingness. :o)

Haha, that is really interesting about the red herring! :-D

Greg Tramel said...

"She drove a Plymouth Satellite
Faster than the speed of light"

the incident did happen

what happened happened & what's done is done

BUT since dark jacob is the 1 left standing (at this time) the island is not done with the 815 loopers

BUT I’m gonna REALLY miss Juliet’s blue eyes

KevJones said...

I wonder if Desmond would be a candidate given his role as "the exception." if he is I think I would prefer to see Jacob inhabit Desmond, nothing against Frank but e seems like an odd choice for a candidate. Which leads me to wonder what exacty qualifies someone as a candidate?

Wayne, your absolutely right there won't ever be another show on the level of Lost, although I do hope it will influence new shows to be more mentally stimulating ( or at least try to avoid becoming completely predictable/bad... i.e. Heroes)

Greg Tramel said...

variable #865

Greg Tramel said...

thought y'all might get a chuckle form my response i sent doc jensen re his 2 questions/survey from this articlevariable set decoration, costuming, hair, dialogue, handwriting and other "glitches" are never meaningless and are an important part of enjoying the show but trying to decipher which are mistakes and which are intentional will throw you into a never ending time loop, doesn't really matter, just sit back and enjoy the text and see where it takes you, fun postmodern synchromystic living

example, when we were trying to decipher the name on Locke's ( Jeremy Bentham) obit many of us went down the rabbit hole with the artist
J Latham, intentional or not it was fun trip

my 3 mysteries i want resolved are (1) is the variance in set decoration intentional (2) are the changes in handwriting production errors (3) are we over analyzing the minutiae but having fun

Greg Tramel said...

variable #865

Capcom said...

LOL, GT, and one of the best keyboard riffs in the history of pop music.

Hmmm, as an artist, it looks like the left foot to me, over on DArzt. Perspective and angle can be very misleading. About the crumble/no-crumble point, I don't know what to think about that except maybe a gaff in the CGI dept. We've seen a few of those before. Looking forward to if this turns out to be something.

Kev, we do know that Locke was told by that cop kid that he was chosen as contact point for the sting because he was pliable. So maybe that is a hint as to how people get chosen? For instance, the MIB choses the weak peeps like Locke, but Jacob choses the strong like Des? This is beginning to remind me of how the devil picks on people to wear them down in The Screwtape Letters. Everything in Locke's life just chipped away at him, and his crybabyness kept winning out over his strength, even to the end in the hotel where he tried to kill himself.

Greg Tramel said...

we can rewatch the whole season with docartz starting in june(my wife is not gonna be happy about this, maybe i can FINALLY get her to watch,)

Greg Tramel said...

ha ha i got comment 108

secrets of lost #12

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom is that THE docarzt or his evil twin? You'll know what I mean.
I so want to open my mouth sometimes. I'll be back from Indy before I know it.

Greg, the best way to hook you wife is to get her started from the beginning. You have the DVD sets?

Capcom said...

LOL, Wayne. As far as I'm concerned they are one and the same. And, I hear ya. :o)

Jonathan Gaskill said...

I've had a couple more thoughts about The Incident after having more time to think about it.

APPEARANCES BY JACOBFirst off, I now think that not all of those appearances by Jacob in the main characters' past were all Jacob. I think that some of them were Smokey/MIB. Jacob probably was partly responsible for bringing Oceanic 815 to the Island (like he apparently did for the Black Rock), but perhaps Smokey is--for the first time perhaps--inserting his own people into the mix in order to mess up Jacob's plans.

I believe that Sayid, Locke and perhaps Sawyer were the ones chosen by Smokey. I believe Locke would have died without Smokey's intervention, and this is the first seed he plants in setting up Locke as the future leader of the Others and his means to kill Jacob. And similar to Locke, Sayid would also have died if Smokey hadn't intervened, and Smokey wants him alive in order to be the one who shoots young Ben and starts the process of Ben replacing Charles as leader of the Others, not to mention using Ben to kill Jacob. Sayid and Locke should have died, and like Desmond postponing Charlie's death, Smokey does the same. Locke is now dead, and Sayid soon will be. The universe course-corrected, but not before Smokey was able to use them to help him kill Jacob.

As for Sawyer, I just think it's possible that it was Smokey instead of Jacob. We saw that with Kate, Jacob encouraged her to steer clear of stealing, even though it was inevitable that she do so later on in life with the toy plane. Knowing her future didn't stop Jacob from trying to steer her in the right direction. But with Sawyer, he actually gave him a replacement pen so that he could finish his revenge letter. Sawyer's uncle gave him the speech that Jacob would have had it been actually been Jacob. But Smokey encourages Sawyer to follow his path of revenge, however inadvertently. Also, like in Locke's case he says he is sorry about what has happened to him. He probably would have made a similar apology to Sayid, but Sayid was a little busy at the moment. Also (and forgive me if I'm reading way too much into it), in each of these three situations, there was something related to written things. With Sawyer, it was the revenge letter. With Locke, it was the book Smokey was reading prior to the fall. With Sayid, it was directions on a map.

Even though I've changed my mind on the entire plane crash being Smokey's idea, I still think that it's important to try to see his overall plan to create a loophole and think about how he could have made that happen.

REINCARNATIONOkay, this one has absolutely no proof, it's just something that popped into my head. What if all these characters are linked not just because they were handpicked by Jacob or Smokey, but because they are all reliving the same scenario over and over? When we finally get to see the Black Rock and the people on it, will they look like Jack, Kate, Sawyer and the rest? Are they representatives of the human race, hopefully able to learn the lessons that Jacob is trying to teach them so that the cycles can stop?

According to the research done by Dr. Brian Weiss on past live regression under hypnosis, he claims to have tapped into the point in time between lives, where people rest before choosing the next life. He believes he has discovered that often groups of souls will reincarnate together over and over, trying to learn what they're supposed to learn. Is this what's happening to some of these people? Have each of them been through all this before, never quite learning Jacob's lessons and therefore being destined to repeat the scenario until they do?

Gareth said...

Wow some great comments (Jacob isn't Good? Mind blowing). I only have one thought and that is this (in light of several biblical references): Considering the Clairvoyants fright when he saw/peered into Claire's future I wonder is it plausible to assume tat Aaron is Jacob reincarnate? Considering Jacob is murdered by Ben before Aaron is born (in the correct time-line) and the inherent link with jack, Christian, Claire and the Island would it really be so daft to think that Season 6 will see Aaron return to the Island older to finalize the time lop and consequentially initiate it again.

Could perhaps explain why Locke saw Claire in the Cabin (Smokey trying to possess her to prevent Aarons birth in another loop? Lots of thoughts indeed.

Poor Juliet :(

Anonymous said...

dakranii here.

@Jonathan. I was thinking along similar lines this morning. I was thinking about the opening conversation about it always ending the same, it only ending once, and the rest being progress.

It reminded me of two things. One, Groundhog Day. Bill Murray had to keep living the same day over and over again until they got it right. Trial and error. Once he got it right he came out of the loop.

It also made me think of the book the Celestine Prophecy. It stresses that everyone we meet, every encounter has significance and that ultimately we're working towards a higher consciousness that will eventually take us to a non-physical plane of existence. That's what happened to the mayans, it posits, who seemingly disappeared from history.

Maybe the othhers are living through like bill Murray, trying to get it right but living a whole life over rather than just a day. Maybe the 06 were Egyptians in one life, failed, came back to try it again. Maybe they were on the black rock and failed and are back to try it again.

I'm not sure what "it" is.

dj said...

I don't know about you guys but this whole concept of "Gee, who will *so and so* inhabit next!" really grosses me out. The prime example is the assumption that Jacob may come to inhabit Frank. Does that not strike you as absolutely horrible? Frank is a living, breathing person. And I'm sure he likes it that way. He's also his own man. Jacob coming to "inhabit" him would either mean they've got to pop a cap in his ass to make it possible, or Jacob just goes and pushes Frank's consciousness out and uses the body. Either way, it spells the end for Frank. Why doesn't this concept bother anyone else?? I'm sure Jacob was a great dude and we'd all love to see him come back, but not at the expense of a nice guy like Frank!

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Dakranii, that's an interesting idea about the Oceanic 6 being Egyptians in a past life, or at the very least part of the Black Rock. And in regard to the Black Rock, I'm wondering if anything to do with the Black Rock is from a previous cycle, and not the current one. Richard says that Jacob made him so that he doesn't age ("you do remember birthdays, don't you Richard?"), so maybe Richard is the only living remnant from the previous cycle.

Oh dude, I just had a thought. Maybe in each cycle, Jacob causes the most enlightened person to not age so that he can help the people from the next cycle learn the lessons they're supposed to learn. Richard isn't immortal in the sense that he can't be killed, he just doesn't age. I'll bet next season we'll see him die, to be replaced by the most enlightened person from the current cycle. Maybe it's Vincent.

That being said, I do hope that they don't end this like Stephen King ended the Dark Tower series.


So when Roland finally reaches the Tower and climbs to the top, it just takes him to the beginning of the story and wipes his memory clean so that he has to relive it again, as part of an endless succession of cycles. But Mr. King gives us hope that the next cycle will be the last by showing that Roland possesses an object he didn't have last time. But my complaint about that is that if an author is going to write about a series of cycles, wouldn't it be better to write about the very last one, rather than the second-to-last one? The Matrix trilogy showed what happens in the last cycle, and so it had closure. The writers of Lost had better do the same.

KoreAmBear said...

Well, I see it this way. I like the actor that plays Lapidus. Without Jacob or whoever or whatever taking over the Frank man, he's done on LOST. So the unbuttoned bow chicka wow wow Frank Lapidus, gets to continue to show his hairy chest. Just a thought.

Capcom said...

I like Frankie too! I've got a thing for pilots. :o)

I'm still wondering if sometimes the Others thought they were hearing from Jacob, when they were actually hearing from Mr.MIB, when they were doing the things that were really very morally questionable. Jacob's tactics seem more gentle (at this point) than the twisted stuff that Ben, Patchy, etc., were doing as means to a end. And does Ricardus even know that MIB exists?

Haha, that would be great if the Black Rock is full of peeps who look like the Losties! X-D

KoreAmBear said...

One big question I have is why the MIB possessed Locke didn't know where Jacob lived. When Richard showed him the foot, Locke was like "so it's a foot, but where's the guy I want to kill?" I mean he was sitting next to the statue with Jacob smelling some grilled fish, in 1854.

dj said...

Smokey-as-Locke played dumb throughout the whole thing, though. "Oh, you need to summon the Monster? How..?" "Oh, Alex said that huh?" "Dahurrr, where's Jacob?" "How do I shot web?" He's full of shit. He knew it all the entire time because he orchestrated it. He just had to play the part so no one would get suspicious. It's bad enough that the dead guy is now up and walking around like it ain't no thang... but to be entirely all-knowing as well? Hell no. He played it cool, followed the human rules, and that made his Bensassination all the sweeter. Look how I manipulated all deez friggin people into ultimately killing you! Har har!

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Capcom, I was wondering about Smokey's influence on the Others as well. I'm really starting to wonder if these new folks (I think Bigmouth originally called them DHARMA:TNG) are actually the Others as they're supposed to be. Perhaps Richard is the only member of the Others that was actually picked by Jacob. The rest could very well just be pawns of Smokey to help him accomplish his task. Like you said, the members of the Others that we've seen have typically been very dark people, and are the very definition of "flawed", despite Mikhail's insistence that being flawed keeps you OFF of Jacob's list. Perhaps this super-elite list was Smokey's shopping cart of evil people he wanted on the Island to serve his will.

Anonymous said...

Segundo said...

@ Jonathan... Richard being the only Jacob appointed other makes sense to me. But it must of been his choice at some point. He's watching the others and reporting MIB's influence on them.

Sorry to get hung up on this, I just really would like to know what happened to the statue. Maybe the dynamite from the Black Rock?

Capcom said...

Great points you guys. And if RA did know about MIB, why the heck wasn't he more suspicious of Locke? If he's known about the threat of MIB all along, why wasn't he more alert to possible deception and threat? You'd think that RA would be privy to at least some of the facts about any nemesis or opposition that Jacob would have, but it looked at as he was clueless. Too clueless, even if TPTB were trying to throw us off. If fooling us was all that RA's naivete was about, it was kinda clunky writing, IMO.

Greg Tramel said...

i'm afraid juliet will not be one of "they're coming" with jack and gang and we are back to the kate, sawyer, jack triangle UNLESS we did not see the part of the juliet flashback with jacob givng her a little push like he did wth jack and company

Greg Tramel said...

i'm seeing rose/bernard being the balance between fate and free will

Capcom said...

P.S., Memphish over at the Lost Community blog has noticed that Sun and Jin's wedding and reception clothes are completely different from the first time shown, and from what was shown in the finale wedding. I wonder what's up with that?! Either the comstume department gets rid of the clothes after they are done with them (usually not done until a series is finished) or there is something really fishy going on there.

Greg Tramel said...

jonathan i LIKE ur reincarnation idea adding the reason why richard has always been there (or at least a very long time) is because he is enlightened balancing fate and free will (ying/yang of light jacob & dark jacob( and/or MIB, and/or smokey)

Greg Tramel said...

capcom, dang just when i was resolved to let all the variables go another one pops up

is it on the discussion board somewhere?, i've wondered what happened to memphish since she does not do much with her blog anymore

Greg Tramel said...

oh nevermind she posted it to her blog: memphish is lost, should have looked there 1st, again duh!

Anonymous said...

Juliet was right. Sawyer does love Kate.
Bernard, “so we die, all we care about is being together.”
Juliet looks at Sawyer and smiles.
Sawyer looks at Kate.
Juliet notices.


Greg Tramel said...

i still think a REAL reason kate came back was for sawyer, not that the claire thing was unimportant but it was the combination of both that propelled kate to use jack in a sense to get back to the island

Greg Tramel said...

i don;t just totally despise kate but she is a flighty trouble walking

it really got in my craw how she hopped into jack's bed the night before flight 316 but then on the plane she basically acted like she didn't want anything to do with jack

sorry, i enjoy the mushy love stuff as well as the mythology, like i said before i could use less gunfights

Synchromystic Librarian said...

i'm going with they are BOTH jacob calling them light jacob & dark jacob as symbols for free will vs fate, faith vs science, lucifer vs satan, good vs bad, good vs evil, yadda yadda yadda

the key is in the balance as in the marriage of heaven and hell

Bigmouth said...

Sorry for the delay in posting!

Synchromystic Librarian said...

looking forward to reading it later tonight but until then

what if frank being a candidate was a red herring and jacob will now inhabit locke's (jermey bentham) body

light locke vs dark locke

Anonymous said...

Synchromystic Librarian, that is an awesome idea! I would hate to think of "Locke" being a bad guy now to the end, just doesn't set right with me. "Jermey Bentham's" corpse is just lying there now waiting for Jacob's spirit to possess it. Goes perfect with Bad Twin.


Capcom said...

Aw, yer killin' me Lantzdogg, that was a tough scene. :-(

Tx for mentioning Memphish's post GT, she didn't tell us that she wrote one up on her find.

Yes, that is why I dislike Kate as well. She's a human pingpong ball. And fickle to. :-p

Gonna go read the Big post now!

Anonymous said...


why are Ilana and Co. trucking that air cargo case through the jungle?

they know it's Locke's body. Why not just carry the body through the jungle?

is the body "holy?"

There has to be a reason why they would struggle with this unwielding metallic sarcophagus. Some reason why they can not touch the body. Even at the end, they dump the body out, as to ensure they do not touch it.

As a follow up to my comment about Juliet seeing Sawyer look at Kate following Bernard's "so what, as long as we are together"...if you watch the scene again, you can see how Juliet is devastated. Bernard sees it, which is why he asks if she would like to stay for some tea. "maybe another time"
Lost is a love story.
Sawyer loves Kate, but won't admit it. Juliet loves Sawyer, but knows Sawyer loves Kate. Jack loves Kate.

Also...easter egg...on the table during the flashback of Juliet during her parent' divorce is a book called "mysteries of ancient americas" which if you google, comes back as, "Discovering the Mysteries of Ancient America: Lost History And Legends, Unearthed And Explored." Very clever Team Darlton.


Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

Interesting Lantzdogg. The way that they were carrying the box with the poles reminded me of how the ark of the covenent was carried, via poles thru rings on the four corners.

Great thoughts Big! I also got some serious Job feelings from the Jacob and MIB discussion. And when we were looking up Chardin the other night that jumped out too. Didn't know about him before the show though (much thanks to TPTB for always expanding our minds!).

I like your idea of the wrestling Jacob! Yes, the Jacob/Aslan/Kenobi/Phoenix thing seems very possible, especially since Jacob walked right up close to Ben into his stabbity-stab (to quote DJ) reach!!! :-o

Great point that Mr.MIB has to die too, I like it.

So do we know for sure that it was the bomb going off and not just the Casimir energy causing a wormhole? :o) It would be great if Juliet survives and gets Desmond's abilities.

Wow, great theory about the guitar.

Jonathan Gaskill said...

This is probably a misguided exercise, but I'm beginning to try to map concepts from Lost onto the Matrix trilogy to see if there are any other matches besides the ones already mentioned. Here's what i'm thinking so far:

Jacob = Oracle
Smokey/MIB = Merovingian
Island = the Matrix
Desmond = Neo
Penny = Trinity
Ben = Agent Smith
Richard = Seraph
Survivors = Zionists
Others = Merovingian's henchmen

Obviously not everything's going to map over exactly, but I think there's a basic theme present in both the mythologies of Lost and the Matrix. You have a Neo character to whom the rules do not apply. Neo was told he had to abide by the rules, but he ignored those rules and chose his true love over anything else. Does this mean that Penny and Desmond are fated to die just like Neo and Trinity did? Perhaps they will be united until the end, ending up as the corpses in the cave. Perhaps they go back to 1954 and do something that causes the cycles to end.

I don't think we've seen the equivalent of an Architect character yet--maybe that's for the final season. But like the Oracle, Jacob uses what he knows about the human psyche to encourage people to do the right thing. The Oracle doesn't want the cycles to go on forever, and neither apparently does Jacob.

Smokey/MIB hates the cycles and wants to kill Jacob, just as the Merovingian hated the Oracle and wants to kill her. The Merovingian was jealous of the Oracle's ability to see into the future, just as Smokey appears to be limited in his vision of what Jacob is trying to accomplish.

Desmond seems to be like a Neo character, who has the ability to change things and end the cycles. Neo postponed his destiny to return to the Source, but eventually ended up there anyway. But when he did end up there, it was by his choice, and the outcome was that the cycles were ended. This is how the Wachowski Brothers attempted to demonstrate the point where fate and free will meet--Neo's destiny was to be connected to the Source, but he did so on his own terms by his own free will, and brokered a peace deal that stopped the cycles. Similarly, we've seen Desmond postpone Charlie's death, but eventually Charlie did die, and the outcome was different than before--the Oceanic 6 were saved.

Just like the Matrix, the big issue is making choices as well as the larger theme of fate vs. free will. Lost seems to embrace the idea that even though there are human variables making free choices as they go along, those choices are unknowingly their destiny. If that's the case, then even Charlie's death was supposed to be in the Looking Glass, and not by a lightning bolt. Desmond sees visions of the future, just as Neo did when he saw Trinity's death. Neo tried to prevent Trinity's death as he saw in the vision, but he was only postponing the inevitable. The visions that Desmond saw, then, were not so much what SHOULD have happened, but what WOULD happen if Desmond did not intervene.

The question is then: what would have happened if Desmond had not seen those visions? I hear the Oracle replying: "What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything?"

Capcom said...

You guys, check out this new possible Lost ARG that was posted at TLC!

Very interesting Jonathan.

Capcom said...


Hope it's not fan-generated.

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Dude, what if the Bennu Bird, is the Hurley-Bird? If you're not sure what I'm talking about, check it out at

Capcom said...

Oh wow, Jonathan, you're right, we've been waiting for the Hurley bird all this time! X-D

Good thinking!

Jonathan Gaskill said...

But if that's what the Hurley bird is, why did it call out Hurley's name? What would be the connection between the Bennu Bird and Hurley?

Capcom said...

Cuz Hurley's special. And Jacob said so. ;-)

Capcom said...

The bird is supposed to be related to the phoenix, so maybe that's why TPTB had MIB kick Jacob into the fire. Out he will fly! ???

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Yeah, that could be. I just now looked up the Bennu Bird on Wikipedia, and it says that it can sometimes appear as an eagle with red and gold feathers. Although the Hurley Bird was green, but I'm not sure if that matters.

Wow, I'm totally going off on this, and we haven't even verified whether or not this is actually a real ARG. I am totally addicted to this stupid show!! What the heck am I going to obsess over when it's finished?!?

Oh, one more thing. That quote about the Bennu Bird being the Heart-Soul of Ra and all that apparently comes from the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

If this is for real, the phoenix aspect might be a hint about the writers' use of reincarnation.

Capcom said...

Good point! And it would be hilarious if the writing on the van had nothing actually to do with Locke, but rather with Jacob...or the Losties....or whomever. X-D

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Wait, the writing on the van? What'd I miss?

I was curious about what Egyptians believed about reincarnation, and one source I found said that they believed that souls first went through a series of animals before emerging as a human. What if the Hurley Bird is somehow Hurley's soul?

If that's the case, maybe every time we've seen an animal in connection with a person, it's somebody's soul. Maybe Kate was a black horse in a past life. Maybe Walt was a bird. Maybe Michael was a yellow lab.

Nah, that's crazy talk.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, gang. Yeah, Greg, when Kate sd she was going back to find Claire, if I was Mrs. Littleton I'd have hit her with the nearest blunt object and ask why the eff she didn't do it three years ago? The weakest part of how they got on 316 was Kate's, I'm hoping she ends up on an alternate Earth where EVERYBODY lies and makes up stories and she is just S#!t Out Of Luck, Baby! Living Hell for Kate, boo-yah (or whatever).

Great posts, Big. Makes perfect sense that the guitar case needs to be placed where end up.

Got stuck sleeping in the Indianapolis Greyhound station last night (bad bad bad weather), and I wrote some fiction, then thought on LOST, missed Big's bullet points, though.

Loophole: Dark Locke tells Richard to remove the bullet in Locke Lite's leg, then give him the compass, telling him that they won't know each other, etc.

Dark Locke manipulated the past, Richard bought into it completely in 1954 when Locke Lite mentions Jacob. That matches up with what Big said, just about. But the compass wasn't Richard's who gave it to Locke, it was Dark Locke who had the compass, putting it into the loop we've seen. Because they met in 1954, Richard kept his eye on Kid Locke because IN THE FUTURE Dark Locke orchestrates everything Richard does from 1954 on. (The loophole starts in 1954, it takes until 2007 to happen). The loophole was having Richard trust Locke to go see Jacob w/o going in first. As dj said, anything Locke sd/did in the finale was B.S. because it was all show. Hell, Dark Locke probably wrote BAD TWIN. That was my thoughts at 4:15 this morning. By extension, as Dark Locke manipulated Richard, does anyone think this had an effect on Ben's place in things?

I'm glad Big brought up Juliet naked in the jungle. I kept my mouth shut. Better she than Bernard, I guess. (If we indeed see Juliet doing the Des thing, we will certainly get a lot of holes filled in on her life with the Others, the branding, the Tempest, etc. After Locke, it seems Juliet is the only other person Richard was off-Island for).

And I'm guessing they kept Locke in the crate because they thought it was important to keep him there, at the very least, it was dramatic.

@KoreAmBear, yeah, OK. You got your 70s soft porn Fahey the pool boy. But I'll tell you, I've always crushed on Elizabeth Mitchell (even in those awful Santa Clause films and, of course, GIA with Angelina Jolie; men, start your Googling now), but Josh Holloway in the Dharma jumpsuit got me thinking, man, I'd like to sit in a bar and have a few Cokes, swap some wacky stories. Just sayin, is all.

Capcom said...

Good thoughts, Wayne.

I wonder if Ben was kind of a disappintment to Jacob, so that's why he dind't end up responding to Ben the way he did with other leaders. Barring the possibility that Jacob's silence was a test for Ben, maybe Ben was too much over on the dark side for Jacob's preference?

I dunno, have to rewatch it tomorrow to get a better grasp on things. Meanwhile, someone twittered back to this Hobbes site and was told that something would happen on the 18th. We'll see. It could just be another elaborate fan-made thing.

Synchromystic Librarian said...

i think frank being a candidate meant he may already have a connection with the island (before being the helicopter pilot)and therefore a candidate to be initiated into the shadow of the statue secret society

KoreAmBear said...

Great stuff Biggy. Speaking of Juliet, did anyone think that it was her eye that was on the promo for 2010? That didn't look like Jack's eye.

KevJones said...

Excellent post Big.

Cap, did Jacob have preference for the other leaders because they hadn't been saved I'm the temple, (presumably) by Smokey? Maybe Ben was told to wait because Richard wanted to protect Jacob.

KoreAmBear, I'm pretty sure it was Jacks eye, Juliets eye would have been blue but instead it was green, Idont have it in front of me but on another site is a .GIF that has the eye from the promo and Jacks eye from the Pilot, they seemed identical except for the lighting. I'm posting from my phone so I can't cut and paste the link for you but when I get to a computer I will try to get it for you.

Anonymous said...

Big, I really like where you're going with the concieved-on-born-off vs born-on-concieved-off island. So that takes care of Aaron and Ji-Yeon, but what do you think of Ethan and Miles, concieved and born on island?


Bigmouth said...

Just a few quick follow-up thoughts on you all, everybody's excellent comments. First, I love Capcom's suggestion that the ash circle kept the Man in Black OUT of Jacob's cabin. My guess is that Claire was the key to the Man in Black gaining entrance. That's why she screams at Kate not to bring Aaron back to the Island -- Claire now knows she's been duped.

Like Jonathan Gaskill, I don't get why, if Jacob lives in the foot, everyone keeps going to the Cabin. That's where Ben took Locke, and where Ilana and Co. stopped first after arriving on the Island. Maybe Jacob's followers know that once he leaves the Cabin, they should look for him at the Foot like Jacob mentioned to the Man in Black. Perhaps it's a sign a Loophole has been found.

I'm also really torn about whether the Man in Black controls Smokey. My instinct is that Smokey is bad, and I love Netprophet's suggestion that Locke is the Cobra by virtue of his possession by the "snake" of Apep. Like Aaron, however, I wonder why Ben summons Smokey for judgment if it's really the Man in Black, and why Smokey kills all of Keamy's men.

Why, for that matter, do the Others take people to the Temple? Do Smokey and the Man in Black sometime cooperate to achieve certain shared objectives?

I think NeverlessWonder may be right that neither Jacob nor the Man in Black has complete control over Smokey. Perhaps whoever occupies the cabin controls Smokey? Does Christian wear different clothes depending on who controls Smokey? If so, does the suit indicate Jacob, while casual Christian is the Man in Black? Or does Christian's black suit signal the reverse? Are there two Smokeys: one light, one dark?

I think JLes is right that the Man in Black's "loophole" is somehow related to the spacetime loop we've just witnessed. The hole was the rescue of the Oceanic 6. That allowed the Man in Black to kill Locke and take his place. Does that mean Desmond's vision of Claire's rescue was sent by the Man in Black? Or did the latter deliberately disrupt that vision by taking Claire to the Cabin?

So many questions!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, Big. Spent more time giving your post the proper read-through. I wouldn't go beating yourself on the head, Doc Jensen screws up every other week but its still a good read. For LOST to be a literary marvel it must contain the proper pacing. By opening "The Incident" with Jacob and AA, I was pretty much thinking WTF? WTF? WTF? If anybody claims that they saw that exact scene coming, they are lying. This was the ultimate long con.

@Capcom, just a cautionary note, if you are worried about the "new" ARG being fanfic (as in fictionalized, not fiction), didn't the same thing happen with the two guys in Spain who supposedly bought and scanned the pages from MYSTERY TALES #40? How do the TLE's get announced, I know we saw Octagon and Ajira in the form of commercials on ABC. Just sayin', like you suspect, it could be fan-generated. If I recall the story correct, wasn't there nothing to all their bluster by the end. I suppose no one is getting hurt as long as money isn't involved, but I'd suspicion that unless it was sactioned by ABC (or whomever), take it with a grain of salt. Plus, if Twitter is involved, I believe MS#40 had their own announcement site there, as well.

When I mentioned the various redshirts that had some import before their being doomed (Boone, etc.), is this how we can explain those who do not fit? Adult Miles meeded to be the one to convince Chang to stop the drilling. Frank had to fly 316 to Hydra (of course he is a candidate, the co-pilot died. I like to think its because the co-pilot was not a good person, but that's me rationalizing the co-pilot could have been hurt with a few of those other passengers). Ethan? Seriously, I always have believed that he was driving the bus that plowed into Juliet's husband.

I'm looking forward to the Three Black Swans post, Big. Wonder if it's getting revised any, ha ha.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Big, commenting as I typed. Part of the loophole was the 06 being rescued, but it still stands with Locke himself. He only knew he was supposed to die (not how) to get everyone back because Richard (through his future, not-himself self) told him so. The idea was for the 06 to come back with dead Locke's body, but it was orchestrated well before the 06 returned. Meant to say, I totally agree with you that Jacob knew what was going to happen and when. He knew exactly who to contact and why, and how to make everyone think that the decisions they made were their own, i.e., Locke actually believing that ne needed to hang himself.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

One more thing. We know that Eloise is not pregnant with Dan in 1977. When Richard expresses concerns about her being pregnant when they are ready to move the core, she says its all that much more important that they do it. Why word the exchange that way? Was Eloise getting future flashes by that time, did she know how important that unborn child would end up being, i.e., her being pregnant in the first place was the best reason of all to move the core?

Anonymous said...

BigMouth, you have to check out this theory at Dark:

Basically the same idea and spirit. Great article.

Capcom said...

Hi All!

Interesting question Kev, I don't know what to think about that.

Wayne, we're still not sure about the Spanish comic guys not having some official connection to TPTB, since in the source code of one of the ABC ARG sites, it referenced the "March Has 32 Days" story and the comic. Wow, I love your idea about Ethan and the bus! :-D

I really like parts of that theory Anon.

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, id didn't get what ur saying here "We know that Eloise is not pregnant with Dan in 1977"

Greg Tramel said...

i'm still going with the major characters had connections to the island before 815 and 316 and before jacob gave them a push

erexere, i'm not sure if it is confirmed that miles was born on the island but do correct me if i'm wrong thinking only aaron, ethan and alex are confrimed as being born on the island

Anonymous said...

Dakranii here.

I think there are two things we're reading one way that might actually need to be read another way.

1. Claire says to Kate "don't bring him back". I'm wondering if she should have been eating a red herring. We're assuming she meant Aaron, given the situation. But what if claire was talking about Locke. "don't you dare bring him back!"

2. Hurley is visited by Charlie and then tells Jack that Charlie said he isn't supposed to raise him. He says "do you suppose he means Aaron?" and we all thin, sure, who else could he mean? Well, we hadn't seen a dead Locke riding around in a van with "reincarnated" written on the side. Perhaps Charlie meant "you're not supposed to raise Locke".

Just a thought. It changes whose team we might think some are on.

Greg Tramel said...

big, i'm going with yes, the opening scene was jacob wrestling with himself as 1 way to put it (or light jacob vs dark jacob, 2 sides of the same coin)

season 6 is locke vs locke until he merges to become enlightened

Greg Tramel said...

good thoughts Dakranii,

"sometimes words have 2 meanings" on jacob's ladder (stairway) to heaven

Greg Tramel said...

big, all the predictions are spot on and NOT whackadoo AT ALL

i've got 1 that IS tho, illana is nadia after her accident

Greg Tramel said...

for more on omega point see dr todd's musings

Synchromystic Librarian said...

k(f)ate is a fickle bitch

Capcom said...

Hahahaha, that's exactly what I was thinking yesterday!! X-D

Nice points Dak.

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Big, I had to smile when you admitted to being wrong. If I had a nickel for every time I've been wrong about what's going on with Lost, I'd be a rich man. But the sad thing is that after five seasons of being continuously proven wrong, I can't seem to stop myself. I remember the first time watching season one and being so proud of myself for having figured out that the Island was purgatory. That idea is so laughable now, that it was actually referenced in the "Previously on Lost" spoof (see Very humbling, but not enough to stop me from still trying to figure it all out.

Holy cow, I love your idea that Claire was the way in which Smokey gained entrance to the cabin! That would explain why the writers have yet to show us what happened to Claire, because they needed to reveal other stuff first. I have to say, though, that I still think Smokey has been inhabiting that cabin for a long time and that Jacob has NEVER inhabited it. As much as I can understand the theory that it was meant to keep the Smoke Monster OUT, Jacob does not appear to me to be the kind of dude who worries much about anything--not even the possibility of Ben stabbing him. So unless there was somebody else besides Jacob in the cabin that was being protected from the Smoke Monster...

...oh, wait. I just thought of something. You know how Smokey doesn't know anything about a person until he's been near them to read their minds? What if there was somebody for whom Jacob didn't want Smokey to be able to read their minds--to know what this person knows? What if Jacob had somebody in that cabin who, in order for Jacob's plan to succeed, needed to be protected from Smokey's reach? If this is the case, this person would be Jacob's ace-in-the-hole to ensure that things went the right way. Either that, or Jacob is pulling a long con on the Smoke Monster by making it LOOK like the person in the cabin is someone for whom Jacob doesn't want Smokey to reach. Either way, with the break in the ash circle, it would appear that Smokey eventually got his way. Whether or not this break was part of Jacob's plan we'll have to wait and see.

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Oh, and one other thing to point out. Richard didn't even bother to stop at the cabin first. This is either because a) he doesn't even know about the cabin, or b) he knows about the cabin, but he also knows that Jacob is no longer there. I suspect that it's the first one. If Jacob has EVER truly had anything to do with the cabin, I suspect that it was to meet people other than Richard. Perhaps Richard is one of the few people Jacob allowed to see or be aware of his true home. Based on the fact that it seemed normal to Richard to bring Locke--the leader of the Others--to Jacob's home under the statue (albeit with his disapproval of Locke's impatient manner), I'd say that Eloise and probably Charles have also seen Jacob there.

But since Ben has always linked Jacob to the cabin, I don't think Ben ever knew about Jacob's connection with the statue. This lends more credence to the idea that Ben is Smokey's pick for leader of the Others, when Charles really should have been allowed to continue. Everything about Ben is a lie, including where he thinks Jacob is located.

One question that I haven't seen asked very much is this: if the ash circle really is meant to keep something in or out, why does the cabin move? The second it moves, doesn't it move away from the ash circle? Is there more than one cabin, or does the ash circle move with the cabin--either literally or spiritually?

Jonathan Gaskill said...

I'm rewatching The Incident, and I've got another thought about why it might be Smokey appearing in Sawyer's past as Jacob. The scene with young Sawyer is about the letter that Sawyer ended up writing. That letter led to Sawyer meeting up with the con man who ruined his life. That meeting led to him killing the man, which led to Locke being one step closer to replacing Ben as leader of the Others. And by that time Richard was prepared to help Locke take over because Ben was wasting their time with the infertility issue.

My guess is that young Ben fell in love with Annie. When they get older, she gets pregnant by Ben. Smokey needs Ben to continue to have a crappy life, so he changes the dynamics of the Island so that women who are born on the Island die in childbirth. After Annie dies, Ben becomes obsessed with trying to reverse it--obviously with no help from Jacob. This kills two birds with one stone for Smokey, who not only keeps Ben in his weakened emotional state, but also plants the seeds for Richard to start becoming desparate to replace Ben with someone else. Richard admitted that he never sensed anything special about Locke, but with all the signs being provided to him (albeit unknowingly all from Smokey), Richard decided that he'd be better off with Locke. Smokey's plan is fully on schedule.

Heck, for all we know that first meeting with Richard and young Ben could have actually been Smokey disguised as Richard. Is there any indication when Kate and Sawyer brought an injured Ben to Richard that he even recognized Ben? Minutes later Richard takes him to Smokey, where Ben loses his memory and the question becomes moot. Very convenient.

Capcom said...

AHA!!! That would explain why Richard had long hair and hippie-dippie clothes on when he met Ben, and then the Armani dressy clothes all the other times before and after! :-D

Now I can sleep tonight, seriously, I wrote a post complaining about this during the last hiatus because it bothered me so much, and I'm sticking to this theory like glue. Thanks Jonathan, heheh!

Interesting thoughts about Annie too.

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Capcom, my pleasure. I can't wait until the final season so I can see how wrong I am about all of this. Yay!!!

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Still re-watching the finale, and I just changed my mind about Smokey being some of the Jacob appearances in the past. Now I think he's in ALL of them. That whole touching thing he does is all about acquiring their memories. That's what Smokey does, and he's going to use them to his fullest advantage.

The only thing I can't figure out is why in the midst of all those flashbacks did they show us one from Juliet, if there was no appearance by Jacob/Smokey in it? We didn't need it to understand why she'd been hurt by Sawyer, so there must be some other reason. Maybe in the first episode next season, they'll finish her flashback and as she runs from the house she bumps into Jacob/Smokie or something.

Anonymous said...

@KoreAmBear, I couldn't agree more, "Oh man, comment period overload. So many thoughts, so many directions to go."

Having just read through all these provocative theories and remarks, the one small contribution I can offer may be of little consequence in the grand scheme of things, but since you asked: Goodwin also died by impalement.


Jonathan Gaskill said...

Just watched the scene where Hurley is met by Jacob. I couldn't see a reason why this appearance would be Smokey, but I decided to try to think of a reason anyway. What if Smokey's plans for Hurley haven't yet come to fruition? Why would Smokey want someone on the Island who could talk to dead people? Then I had a thought: what if Hurley can't see dead people at all? What if all those appearances by supposed ghosts were actually Smokey in disguise? We've seen how Hurley believes whatever the ghosts tell him. So just like Smokey choosing a gullible person like Locke to do his bidding, perhaps another gullible person like Hurley is in his plans as well. Maybe when the time is right, Smokey will appear to Hurley as a ghost and tell Hurley to do something.

Hurley really is crazy and sees things that aren't there, like Dave. The first time that it appeared like Hurley could truly see stuff genuinely was Jacob's cabin. But the cabin wasn't in the right spot. Later on, Locke, Ben and Hurley (all three chosen by Smokey) are searching for Jacob's cabin. Hurley suggests that the reason only those three can see it is because they're the craziest. The more I think about it, the more this seems like the kind of scene that has a different meaning once you've seen the entire series. Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it, as usual.

But we don't really see Hurley seeing dead people until after he gets off the Island. Then he sees them all the time, and Charlie even tried to tell him that Jack shouldn't be raising "him". What if that was Smokey just trying to get Jack away from Aaron, then finishing the job later with a dream to Kate in the guise of Claire, telling her not to bring Aaron back to the Island? Smokey doesn't want Aaron on the Island and went to great lengths to get him taken off of it, appearing to Claire as her father.

Pretty far-fetched stuff, I know, but I know how the writers like to trick us, so I'm trying to think outside the box as much as possible.

Capcom said...

Right! And the co-pilot with Frankie also, didn't he? By a branch?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

You are right, Capcom and KoreAmBear, re impalement. And doesn't impalement make you think of fighting in ancient times, like say in 300 DAYS OF NIGHT, I mean, 300? (The other is my failed screenplay involving Greek, bare-chested vampires). The exact opposite of the gutshot.

@Capcom, I know the ARG linked to one of the Mystery Tales stories, what I meant was, and this was about the time I first read your blog (time is a fickle bitch!), that the two Spanish dudes gave a story about a chess game and took their sweet time posting, claiming they couldn't scan it right away. I thought maybe (cynical me) that they just wanted people to post hits to their blog. As long as something is LOST-sanctioned, I'm down with it (unless it's darkdocarzt, ha ha).

@Greg, yeah, I'm dumb. Eloise was pregnant with Daniel with a different last name even in the womb. The youngest doctor, etc. He'd be 31 in 2008. When I was 31, well, you don't wanna know. So I stand corrected. (Part of me maybe was hoping that Eloise had two kids).

I'm rewatching the episode later over my usual pint of vanilla ice cream with NyQuil topping.

About the cabin. Locke's dreams have always had meaning. Horace built the cabin, so at one point, it was simply a cabin. The stuff inside looks like crap Horace salvaged from the DI throwaways. On the EYE MY SICK mural on this very page, we see three cabins, each with a different colored roof, which makes me think that the cabin "changes." There's Ben/Locke cabin, Hurley/Big Eye in the door cabin, and Christian/Claire cabin. What this all means, you got me, just like I'm sure the whispers have a clear explanation but have no real clue.

The "don't bring him back" thing about it being Locke has been brought up before, last year, but it holds greater meaning now.

A quickie, though: does anyone else think that they chose Titus Welliver to play the man in black because he looked like an older, less-pedigreed version of Richard? I don't know, yeah, he has black-grey hair, but I dunno. It was like seeing Richard after you just woke him up suddenly, hair messy, etc. Not that I would know anything about a sleeping Nestor Carbonell, of course.

So...are we to assume that Jacob has touched ALL or most of The Others, over at least a hundred years? Did he touch Henry Gale?

Capcom said...

Ooooh, OK now I see what you meant Wayne, sorry. Yes, that last comic story post was a bit weird, with all the faux mystery about not posting it.

LOL, Nyquil, as much as I like that as a perfect cure for cold symptoms, I've also just discovered that I can fend off the beginnings of a migraine with a swig of that. :-o

Oh wow, the whispers is a big thing that we din't get an answer for in the finale! Since Ben mentioned them to Danielle on the beach, I thought for sure that we might get some more info about that to chew on for the haitus. Darn.

Anonymous said...

dakranii here

@Wayne. Eloise might have two kids. Daniel is the son of eloise and Charles, penny is the daughter of Charles. It's quite possible eloise is the mom. I don't believe we've seen who penny's mom is but she and eloise share a striking resemblance and accent. Could mean penny and Daniel are siblings.

And penny seems older than dan.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@dakrani, thx. That was my thought, then I backtracked to it being Faraday (because she had to give birth to him so he could write the notebook). I was confused about his age because of the goof with Charlotte's age. But, yes, I'm of the belief that she had another kid, maybe it was Penelope. But it was Faraday the Embryo in 1977, he needs to write the notebook. But Eloise sure seemed to be a part of Desmond & Penny's lives. Des met Penny at the monastery, where Brother Campell posed in a photo with Eloise.

Penny does seem older, but maybe only by a year or two, Faraday's long hair made us think him younger.

Leonid said...

hey guys,

great Blog...i wanna add something that was just mindblowing for me...

remember the very first episode of Lost...where jack is in the jungle and as soon he wakes up he starts running to the beach and help everyone...whatch that episode again and imagine Jack "knows" everything...he knows thats gonna happen, he never asks someone what their names are...he is just crashed on the island...and he wants to go to find the pilot alone ??? why would someone wanna go alone...(u can see that Kate and Charlie wants to go with him..

than look at his conversation with kate... he definitly seems to know her...really great shit if it is true...lost is just amazing...please comment

Leonid said...

in the scene where the airplane crashes...Jack is the very first one to fasten his seat belt...before the sign and before everyone else...

i mean this theory is so real just watch the first 2 seasons again and u will find so many moments...there jack had to be on the island before...

KoreAmBear said...

Interesting Leonid. Yet Jack seems clueless about the island for most of the time he's on. Maybe he's got to put on an act to fulfill part of his destiny.

The one question that is bothering me about the finale is -- why didn't Fake Locke know where Jacob lived? Richard had to show him where he was and then even when he showed him the foot, Flocke was dumbfounded like, "so what, nice foot, Richard." The Man in Black clearly knew where Jacob lived in 1854, when they were having a conversation over grilled red herring.

Greg Tramel said...

i think somebody said it here that MIB Locke was playing dumb

Jonathan Gaskill said...

I'm beginning to wonder if the reason that Smokey was trying to get Aaron off the Island was not because Aaron is destined to destroy him, but because Aaron was supposed to be the one who replaces Charles as leader of the Others. With Smokey busy trying to set up his own leaders (Ben and Locke) in order to create a loophole, he had to get the real one off the Island and away from Richard (who might very well recognize Aaron's special nature). And until he's able to successfully kill Jacob and the people Jacob handpicked (Ilana, Bram, etc.), Aaron needs to stay away. Hence Kate's dream, where a supposed Claire warns her not to dare bring him back.

Greg Tramel said...

Jonathan, GREAT smokey theories, i'm still reading through them but they sound very plausible

however i was thinking smokey could only inhabit (for lack of a better word)those that have died on the island or their corpse had been brought to the island and NOT buried, that's why some really push for the bodies to be buried so smokey can't inhabit them

but let me read more

Greg Tramel said...

oh and i had a real whackadoo theory, Ellie was pregnant with Penny (yeah, i know her last name is Widmore) and Widmore had Daniel with the woman off the island

probably not, but something to consider, maybe, LOL

Greg Tramel said...

jonathan, yes i was thinking we just did not see the part with Jacob (or Smokey) giving Juliette a little push yet or it was an clue that Juliet won't survive, yes sad

btw, Wayne, thanks for the Gia tip

some are saying Juliet's father might be the same as Kate's father

Body Double

JLes said...

I know somebody already posted this...but, don't worry, juliette will live...

Watch "Follow the Leader" again and you can freeze your DVR at least 3 other times when that extra is in the background and it looks a LOT like her. Totally convinced that's her.

Kinda wish she just died....

Greg Tramel said...

i'm not convinced it IS juliet, could be just somebody that looks like her that was cast like MIB looking like Richard and the many many other lookalikes

but i do HOPE juliet is still alive

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Greg, you bring up a really important point about Penny's mother. Because it's not just a soap opera-ish question of whether or not Daniel and Penny are siblings, but whether or not Eloise is the "outsider" with whom Charles had a child. If Eloise went from being leader of the Others to an outsider, that would need to be explained. I think the show has made it somewhat clear that Eloise was the leader of the Others, not Charles. So if she left the Island to raise Daniel, then it would appear that Charles stepped in and took over the reins of leadership. Did stepping down from the position of leader make Eloise an outsider in the Others' eyes? Or just Ben's? Was Charles even a candidate for her replacement as far as Richard was concerned, or did Eloise possibly force Richard into it before she left the Island?

Oh man, I'm starting to have thoughts now as I'm typing. I'm still of the opinion that the time skips are Smokey's method of implementing his plan. He needs to insert his own people as leaders of the Others, which means that first the actual chosen one has to be dethroned. And if Eloise was the last genuine, Jacob-picked leader of the Others, then Smokey has to find a way to remove her. What better way to do it than to have her kill her own son, and then give her false hopes that she can prevent it? She would then leave the Island to focus on raising Daniel. Some fans are speculating that Eloise's attempt at steering Daniel toward math was her way of trying to get him to be able to solve the problem and prevent his own death. I'm inclined to agree with that. If Eloise leaves the Island, obsessed with trying to save her son, then the hot-headed Charles is put into place. Then the wily Ben is introduced, who will be looking for Charles to make a mistake. Eventually he does, and Ben takes over. Then Ben makes his mistake, and Richard helps Locke take over. Etcetera, etcetera.

I'm now believing that the whole reason that the writers introduced the concept of the compass' mobius loop is to show on a very small scale what Smokey is doing on an extremely large scale. Yes, everything that happened, happened. But somehow Smokey has been able to introduce an element more or less out of thin air, just like he did with the compass. Except instead of just introducing a small object into the timeline, Smokey is introducing a whole cast of characters and chain of events, designed specifically to create a loophole in Jacob's plan so that he can finally kill him. I wouldn't even be surprised if Smokey was the one directing the time skips to ensure that everyone appeared in the time Smokey wanted them to. Christian was down in the donkey wheel room when Locke fell down there, was he not?

One more thing: I firmly believe that "ghost" Christian is Smokey. And yet the mobisode So It Begins showed this ghostly Christian telling Vincent to go wake up "his son". How can Jack be Smokey's son? How, indeed...?

Greg Tramel said...

Jonathan, like your idea of smokey getting aaron off the island, i could totally see aaron becoming the new jacob

wonder who will be the new MIB if it happens?

Greg Tramel said...

Jonathan, i'm liking your ideas, Ellie could have left the island to raise kid(s) and she wanted Widmore to come with her but he refused so he could became the Others Leader adn Ellie and Widmore split up so to speak

Widmore still could have left the island and had a kind with even another woman (or with Ellie trying to reconcile or something)

Capcom said...

I would tend to think from what was said between Wid and Eloise at the hospital, that Dan and Pen weren't direct siblings (of Wid and Eloise both). Wid mentions the sacrifice he made with his torn relationship with Pen, and Eloise gets mad at him for implying that she didn't sacrifice anything (presumably with pushing Dan on his path).

Unless Eloise is Pen's mother too and she had to give her up to Wid who took her away, and that's what she means about sacrificing. But since that episode was all about how she pushed Dan to his destiny (instead of letting him have a normal life), it seems as if that's what she meant. Or not. :o)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I'm just wondering how Jacob would know Aaron is The One from birth; I can only speculate that one factor is that Claire gave birth when no one else could (which would explain the pregnancy storyline).

@Jonathan, I really believe (particularly now) that Christian was telling Vincent to inhabit Locke. He did wake up, he did wiggle his toe. Quite a few people have speculated that Smokey has been in Vincent off and on, and the transferral would be Christian to Vincent to Locke. If one thinks "his son" as both Jack and Locke, well, Jack did wake up when Vincent barked and RAN PAST HIM; Jack only reacted when Shannon screamed. Previously, I had thought Smokey was in Locke so that he could spy on Walt. Its obvious to me now, that if my wackadoo theory is right, well, Locke 1.0 was being prepped to be 2.0. He WAS paralyzed when he was on the beach, Smokey made him move his toe. From that point on, Locke knew the Island did magical things. Smokey had his pawn.

Could Libby have been 25 when 815 crashed? Being in Santa Rosa might have aged her a bit. Yea, that whole creepy thing about Eloise & Charles, then Libby marries Charles, but what if a reveal next season is that Eloise had another lover on the Island, Widmore might just have been playing the cool guy. Kinda doubt this scenario, but everything is for a reason on LOST and I'm sure a lot of people think that there is no reason to believe that Eloise had two kids. Wouldn't it be nuts if she was pregnant with twins?

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