Friday, July 03, 2009

A Little Push...

Lately I've been thinking about Jacob's Tapestry. At a very basic level, the act of weaving obviously symbolizes fate. But beyond the obvious, was Jacob weaving the fate of all humanity, or some subset like our Losties? I believe it's the latter, albeit with implications for the former. Jacob's Tapestry depicts a very special destiny in which his chosen ones save the world.



In Three Black Swans, I suggested that the human race is destined for extinction, as symbolized by the Valenzetti Equation. Jacob wants to avoid this end but realizes the universe is too powerful for him to directly alter the fate of all humanity. He can, however, reweave fate on a more limited scale, bringing people to the Island to create a butterfly effect that indirectly changes human destiny, a process symbolized by the Tapestry.

If the notion of a higher power guiding characters to some special fate sounds familiar, it should. That theme runs through the works of Stephen King and Stanley Kubrick, two major influences on the show. I'm reminded of how the Overlook Hotel brings Jack Torrance and his family to serve its evil ends in the Shining, or the way the monoliths guide Dave Bowman to humanity's evolution beyond the infinite in 2001: A Space Odyssey.



Really, though, no work better exemplifies this theme than the Odyssey, which Jacob's Tapestry quotes twice. The gods in Homer's epic poem often intervene in the lives of mortals to shape their destinies. There's also a specific parallel to Penelope's loom, with which she daily weaves and reweaves the funeral shroud of Laertes, delaying her impending remarriage the way Jacob delays our inevitable extinction.



The catch is that, as Jacob tells Hurley, those interwoven in the Tapestry "always have a choice" whether or not to answer destiny's call. This may be because Jacob believes in free will, or because the usual rules of course correction don't apply "when you're making the thread" yourself. Unlike the Valenzetti, therefore, the Tapestry is not a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like Jacob says to Jack, sometimes it takes "a little push."



Notice how the Tapestry shows an Eye of Horus with many arms reaching out to touch nine human figures. This clearly refers to scenes where Jacob makes physical contact with nine characters at pivotal moments in their lives, presumably to give them a little push. In prior posts, I've discussed the significance of the pen he gives Little Sawyer to finish the letter, but other encounters illustrate this dynamic as well.

Take Jacob's visit to Little Katie, which does more than save her from becoming Winona Ryder. Jacob also buys Kate the "New Kids on the Block" lunchbox that she and Tom Brennan use for their time capsule. Years later, Kate returns to Iowa and digs up the capsule with Tom. His death forces her to flee to Australia, where Marshall Mars catches her. Jacob's push thus ensures that Kate is a passenger on Oceanic 815.



Or consider Jacob's aforementioned visit to Jack. Their encounter takes place just after Jack has the "count to five" experience (i.e., cutting his patient's dural sac) that he relates to Kate following the crash of Oceanic 815. Not only do Jack and Kate bond over this story, they later use it as a code during her escape with Sawyer from Hydra Island. Here again, Jacob's push seems perfectly timed to effectuate events we've seen.



Jacob's fingerprints are similarly all over Jin and Sun's improbable wedding and Locke's survival of an eight-story fall. The marriage of a humble fisherman's son to the daughter of a rich tycoon is unlikely in class-conscious Korea. And I suspect Locke should have been completely paralyzed -- or even killed -- by his fall. I've explained before why these three Losties are integral to Jacob's plan, so it's no surprise he pushes them.



Jacob's intervention stops Sayid from being killed like Nadia. Or does he stop Sayid from saving Nadia? Either way, it's to push Sayid back to the Island so he can help cause the Incident. Ultimately, it takes Ilana to get Sayid on Ajira 316, but her full role in Jacob's reweaving remains unclear. Ilana's push may relate to that face bandage she's wearing when Jacob visits her in the hospital. What do you suppose happened to her scars?



Then, of course, there's Hurley. I've speculated previously that DHARMA's top chef will quantum leap to 2004, so he can plant Charlie's guitar, which is Jacob's version of the compass paradox. But I'm confident Hurley has an even more important role to play in effectuating the Tapestry. Now that Jacob is cremated, and we know Miles can't converse with ghosts, Hurley may be Jacob's only means of communicating with his people.

Nine chosen ones whose fates Jacob has rewoven with his magical Tapestry to "save us all" from Valenzetti's mathematical prophecy of extinction. Faith vs. science, free will vs. fate, Jacob vs. the Man in Black. As we head into the final season of Lost, it's the Tapestry against the Equation. Can you imagine two more fitting metaphors for the meta-conflicts of the show?

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

344 comments:

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Greg Tramel said...

my sunday whackadoo is season 6 is a do-over for our characters BUT we've already seen some of the season 6 do-over scenes during season 1-5

the long con is on US, the viewers

Greg Tramel said...

i think Ellie got off island before Dan was born and he is her only kid UNLESS she is Penny's mother (but kinda doubt it) and Ellie is the off island woman Charles left the island to visit

Big, Hey!, you've convinced me Ellie did NOT turn the wheel, no mulligans!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Did you see what Greg just typed, Big? The last line?

Ah, Greg, Greg, Greg...

The butterfly effect = the symmetry, perhaps. My ideal hopes, seriously? If each season is folding back, the Swan in S2 and S5, Desmond on the bike (faith in the button), Jacob spinning the wheel, (faith that he will finish the tapestry before he is killed), I would LOVE if S6 didn't reboot with Oceanic 815, but it rebooted with the DI (sorta). I think the best thing would be an opening episode in Ann Arbor, and that we are left hanging about "The Incident" until the second episode. If S6 shows a different S1 on the Island, fine, but give me Ann Arbor (and Mittelos, for that matter).

Greg Tramel said...

hey Wayne, you left so many hints, how could i not come up with THE CON

Greg Tramel said...

i'm thinking they are not going to go all the way back to 815 but right before the first major character died on the island, gotta check Lostpeida to remind myself who/when it was

Greg Tramel said...

actually it wasn't really you Wayne, i was inspired by Therese Odell, she knows her stuff, tarot cards were shown on Lost so Sayid as The Hanged Man is spot on

tubular

Greg Tramel said...

i think Boone was the first major death but i'm thinking they start right before Shanon is killed

Capcom said...

Good thoughts guys. :-)

That movie looks good Big, I hope to see/find it somewhere soon.

Ah crud, you just put the pin in my phoenix bubble. I have been waiting to be shown a valid reason for Collen's obscure Viking-funeral-for-no-reason-at-all, and that would be it. They even wore ceremonial white shirts like Jacob's. :-p

I like the idea that the FDW could be accessable via the grotto tunnels. I've been kinda partial to the idea that the ancients had access to the wheel that the DI didn't/couldn't figure out -- i.e., they're logic scientists so they have to do things the hard way, rather than a possible easy metaphysical way, heheh. Or, it could just be that since they weren't allowed to go to where the Temple access was, they had to drill into it from the other side -- again, the hard way.

"Moon" may only show at indie or arthouse theaters Wayne, but maybe in some areas that appreciate offbeat movies, it might play at a major venue. In Knox it's at an indie theater. I might go see it again, since once you see what's unfodling you go, "Ohhhhhhhhh" to the things that happened before, and I want to see the early things again in context to what the end revealed. Here's the movie site .

Haha, that's what I say Greg, TPTB have been fooling us all along! X-D

Yes, I think that Boone is the first person that we are familiar with who dies, if we don't count the Marshall, who we didn't really know all that well.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Nope, Greg. Not THE CON. But, yea, its been easy to see, even on the show. Smokey gaining Ben's confidence, leave Locke alone, etc.

Another thought on where S6 might start is with one scene I think should NOT have been a $#$@ mobisode because, again, lots of people didn't see it/didn't know to see it. MIB/Christian telling Vincent that he knew what to do. The dog runs through the jungle, awakens Jack, and then helps Locke bond with Walt (or so I think). But if MIB/Christian was also near the beach, was he up near where his usual hang out is, i.e., somewhere between the statue and the beach camp. I've kinda thought that, yes, Smokey can make copies of dead people, but he can kind of get into living people, and dogs. Like a thought transferral thing. Maybe Vincent spends so much time in the jungle and away from everyone because he is MIB has him as his eyes. Somewhat out there as a theory, though. Getting back to how I started it, though, what if S6 started with MIB/Christian?

Capcom said...

P.S. Yes, Mrs. Frederic is indeed curious. Can't wait to see what's up with her. All the rest in the picture were dead or went nuts, right? Heheh, kind of reminds me of the infamous "Operation Paperclip" photo in the X-Files of Mulder's dad, CSM, and the other bad guys in the '40s. Let us know what you think of W-13 Wayne. The first one didn't really blow out of the box super strongly, IMO, but I think there's potential there as the story unfolds. Gotta love that steampunk-junk though! :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx, Capcom. For such a huge city, you'd be amazed at how so many indie films get limited runs. BRICK was at two theaters for all of a month, if that.

With all the talk of mirror images, it made me think, well obviously the wheel is whole, it can be turned. So why not assume the Hostiles had access to it? Some might say that there is too much rock on that sonar, but what if there's an indentation or curve that makes the remaining half of the wheel accessible on the other end? After all, there is an entrance to the tunnels via a cave under the waterfall. But I'm guessing the result from either end would be the same, the Island moves.

Capcom said...

Exactly, the tunnel could have been out of range/site of the sonar maybe. And like you say, the other half of the FDW is on the other side of the wall/rock.

BTW, if you click on the media link on the Moon website, there is a Q&A session with the director at the NASA screening of the movie.

Oh crud I hear thunder, that means that my Bellsouth connection is going to drop soon. :-p

Anonymous said...

wayne allen and capcoam thank you for your efforts and replies.

in your and mine attempt to decipher what they have been showing us the last 6 years obviously opinions will be devided..and thats healthy, its agood thing. each mind has seperate "receivers" and uses variety fo criteria when forming an opinion or a theory on the show.

however, i just think that by allowing the show to be so vague...with no constants and many variables..in essence they have created the first tv + public interractive show...a show which the public helps be continued with its influence and pushing through the biggest media information medium, the internet. which sounds like a creative writting exercise given in universities. no rights or wrongs no truths or lies just an ongoing phenomenon of creative writting and presentation of science elements which as we draw closer to globalisation start to become the new realities that will pave the way for a new universal concept to give more emphasis in practical science than the dogmatic ways of the churches and religions across the world.

in essence what the mayas may have meant with their 2012 is the change in human concept of how we perceive the world....that our advances in technology as a human race open new windows and old dogmas are to be discarted and the new truths about our lives and the universe our kosmos to be embraced.

no cataclysmic events and meteor strikes but the end of an era....in a way LOST can be said of doing exactly that....

showing that synchonicity and how ones actions may affect another far away is actual and true...showing that all the religious b/s we;ve been fed are exactly that...b/s and they are all realted stories passed upon cultures....showing that technology is the real route to improvement...but also suggesting that to make the progress required you must show faith in your planning...

if this is what they initally intended to do...i.e cause a worldwide awakening ...and decided to do it using a magic island with time travel as their "vessel"
..then ok i accept and wholeheartedly congratulate them for their open minds...

but the fact they are dragging it..and milking the cow dry in any financial way possible... can also suggest that they were aiming for a public-interractive-write-as-we go- reality -tv-series a'la survivor meets twin peaks mystery parody.

so which of the two is actually happening?

regs
gg13

Capcom said...

You know GG13, I don't know how to answer your last question (at least not until we see the very last episode and can see the overall picture). But, I do agree with the section of your points about the vagueness (and in my words chopiness) of the story, and that aspect annoys me to no end. Don't get me wrong, I'm not averse to a non-linear storyline, and I don't want to be spoonfed a mystery, because then it's not, well, a mystery. But I have often wondered if the Lost story would be even half as compelling if it was written in a more linear and/or traditional fashion. That is to say, is the draw of the show's mystery dependant on the vagaries(sp?) and holes in the plot, or is it the story itself? For most of the show we didn't even know what the story really was about, until around the third season. Suffice it to say, if it were not for all the online interaction with other fans and viewers, I can't say for sure that the show would seem as interesting to me as it does without all of that exterior support. And I'm sure that lots of viewers would seriously disagree with my view on that. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to have followed a show like Lost without the help from other viewers.

So I don't know actually what is happening as per your final Q, but that's how it seems for me. If not for blogs like this one, and bloggers like the Sickies, I might have said "theheckwiththisshow" a long time ago.

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

P.S. And as for what Greg said, my idea of Lost as a con, is that the con has been that most of the show is happening inside of our heads, not on the screen, in the form of the mental spin-offs that TPTB have planted in the show, e.g. the names, books, hieroglyphs, etc. That is, all the stuff that we research and talk about and dream up in our heads, is mainly what the show is about. IMNSHO, that is.

On the other hand, make no mistake about it, I really enjoy this show, which includes all the elements of it whatever they may be -- internal to the show, external in our research adn chats, the whole smash. Because I really like stories that make me think, and whatever we can say about Lost, it has really made us think about all kinds of interesting things. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@gg13, thx, always trying to help. This blog is one that doesn't ignore the new visitors. I'm sure there are others that WELCOME new visitors, with the "keep reading and it will become clear" attitude.

One thing I'd point out right away, and I think this is wehere S2 bogged things down, as most people will likely agree that S2 was the weakest of the bunch. I'd put the blame straight at ABC re: "milking the cow," they had a surprise hit, the summer of 05 even had pretty decent ratings, and I do believe there was network pressure to concentrate on the relationships/mysteries with little resolution. I might be more than a bit cynical there, but once the ratings dropped, the story picked up overall.

Good thoughts on 2012, I read something once where the Mayans said that the Fourth World ends in 2012 and the Fifth World begins. Maybe the Fifth World is the Information Age for everyone, because the last generation was born during the days of PCs and Macs. The state of the art wheel and, before that, fire.

No need for me to say again how little I enjoy the interactive stuff, but as a writer, I think I'm more into READING what people say than anything else. Your comments are as valid as the next person's.

What is kinda sad is the amount of people who stop visiting Bigmouth's blog over the break even after s/he posts a new entry. Sure, its summer, yada yada. And its not like I have no life that I'm commenting daily with Greg and Capcom and Big. I'm just taking a break from my writing duties. If you hadn't seen the blog until recently, there are some very good commentators during the actual viewing season.

See you next time.

Greg Tramel said...

actually, Ms Frederic (Warehouse 13) reminded me of Richard sine she never ages and pops up out of nowhere, i think Richard can do a lot more than we know such as materialize out of thin air (which I also think Ms Frederic can do)

Greg Tramel said...

gg13, i wouldn't say Lost is showing us that religion/mythology/philosophy is BS but rather that religon/mythology/philosphy are built on top of one other in a long continuum of progress

quite the contrary to it being BS i think they are showing the importance and value of religion to bring people together for the common good by noting similarities and common ground and highlighting the importance that 1 religion is not deemed superior to another with a long thread connecting them all

for example, some Christian tenants may be based on Sumerian, Egyptian & Greek motifs

Greg Tramel said...

gg13, as far the TPTB intentions i don't think it can be pinned down to just 1 of your 2 options,

yes, our awakening & theorizing & disagreements are an intentional and important part of the show as they have said many times before, they don’t in any way want to spoon feed us their questions & answers but rather encourage the healthy debates among then viewers about what it all means

the beginning and the end have always been solidly constant as they originally wrote it but they did leave room open for variables along the way, but i wouldn’t say it was a parody but rather a homage to Twin Peaks and Memento style of storytelling and a nod all the other influences we have mentonined before

so yeah, i’d say there intention is awakening us to new ideas and the changing worldview but at the same time it is a business and our interactions are an important part of the business plan and it can be a complicated business since it is impossible to predict if a pilot will get picked up and then how many episodes it will be picked up for hence the importance to the storytelling to set an end date

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I agree a bit with Greg there, gg13, and everyone else here for that matter. gg13, the producers have said all along that if you go back to "White Rabbit," (S1 episode 5) that it would be clear that they weren't making it up as they went along. Jack's dad, the empty casket, the skeletons in the caves, most important, Jack's being saved from falling by Locke and how they had their first conversation together.

So, yes, there was an ending planned, with maybe a few tweaks if, say, one character proved more popular than expected. I have read that Michael Emerson was meant to be in only a few episodes but the ratings grew during his appearances as Henry Gale, and that Nikki and Paulo were killed off because of the audiences' dislike of their characters, fretting over if they were the new Jack & Kate.

But I do believe that ABC was trying to nudge the producers to milking the second season, since the show was such a surprise hit, so that enough people would come back for S3, since so many questions were still unanswered. And, again, I blame the impatient audiences for how the remaining seasons played out. If we had an extra 8 episodes these last two seasons, many of us would be quite happy, and I just know that the writers would still have given us "The Incident" as a shocker, without giving us a whole lot of filler in-between.

RE: the religion, it has to be there. At the core of it, religion=faith, and the show is about faith vs. science. I wouldn't really argue anything past that, it simply comes down to faith vs. science, Locke vs. Jack, Jacob vs. MIB.

Greg Tramel said...

but i don't think it is TPTB intention to say science/technology wins over religion/faith and for that matter i don't think this is the great war Widmore and Ellie say is going to happen

Greg Tramel said...

video: All I Care About is Lost

Capcom said...

Funny and weird vid, Greg. :-D The guy on the right reminds me of Jerry Doyle from Babylon-5.

BTW, have you found any other info about Des' two-headed phoenix? I've not gotten very far yet beyond the freemason thing. Still looking for a UK connection, as per whether it's just a common type of polo shirt logo over there, and not a big deal for him to be wearing it. If not, then perhaps it means something.

Anonymous said...

cheers for your input and thoughts

the thing is.... that ok i understand why they mix religions cultures science etc...making a nice big salad out of everything to confuse the public but they do not convince me that they planned to use them for their story.

let me ask you of this: you reckon the writters had planned from the off the character of faraday? and that this faraday would end up being the son of the old lady we saw talking to desmond in beg of season 3 in flashes before your eyes?

its not only the linear story type...... mullholland was also wierd and insane and totally confussing......but when you saw the dinner table party scene with the reverse roles of camiila and the blonde it all made sense without having to explain anything further...but that was done by a genious a master mind...while jj abrahams and carlton cuse are too young and inexpreinced to tackle a project in such a way...i mean jj made mission impossbble 3 and so many other crap blogbusters.....

plus the project that invole such deep mysteries and wierdness and confuission are for selective customers....not the mass...

therfore if they were aiming for their show to appeal to the lynchesqe variety of viewers i think they are too small in stature to complete such a thing...and if they were not aiming for such thing but for something which is for the ordinary public then why confuse it.

i hope im wrong and you are all correct and at the final episode we will be ...wow....sh*t...my brain is like mash potato now...they are legends..what have they created my god! bravo!

what lies int he shadow of the subject....sorry but when i saw those scenes i was laughing in disbelief that it had come to that....i mean ......was ilana and the fat guy thought of when eko was on the show?

and what was the point of eko? to show that his brother;s plane landed on the island.?..and how does that relate ? why was it important....? for locke to find the st mary statues...and why where they important for instance? to make a silly episode about addiction with frodo throiwng them at the sea? too commercial too out fo scope with what the show is about...if they knwo what the show is about....

so many inconsistencies....i.e the sea lesbians...lol......they give me the impression tha they are sitting on a table brainstorming and everyone says to the other: yeah thats nice lets put that too....instead of following the plan they allegedly have prepared 6 years ago...are did they never have a concrete definite plan?

somewhere i heard that during season 1 and 2 they didnt really know which way to take it......and in season 3 a new team of writters stepped in to cover the holes and connect what was already shown to a new end....and that season 3 and 4 5 seem to be running "faster" lets say becuase they had to change stuff...

i.e....the first season showed polar bears.........to connect what was previously shown abotu polar bears....in season 5 (or 4?) they show us a frozen chamber and a polar bear in the dessert.....you put two and two together and you deduce that "öhhh thast right dharma trained polar bears in the cells they kept sawyer and kate..to turn the wheel cause it was so damn freezing down there for humans"

the queston is...had they thought of a freezing chamber with a wheel that transports you to the dessert of tunisia when the polar bear was chasing sawyer in season 1?

ehhh no way...no way....

regs
gg13

Greg Tramel said...

no i have not really looked much into Des's symbol on his shirt per say, it very well could be a sports team but the lines seem weird and it is the 1st time he said see ya in another life brotha, ther is some connection with the phoenix and the philosopher's stone which Big has discussed before

"To alchemists, it symbolized the the destruction and creation of new forms of matter along the way to the ultimate transformation: physical (turn lead into gold) and spiritual (immortality - an occult alternative to the Christian salvation). The philosopher's stone was considered the key to this transformation."

"The story of the Phoenix comes from ancient Egypt during the origins of the legend of Hermes. The Phoenix is said to rise from the flames and ashes of its own burning death. The Phoenix symbolizes transformation of consciousness that comes from dying and being reborn, much like the Christian concept of resurrection or the Eastern idea of reincarnation. The double-headed symbol from Hermetic tradition offers the additional Eastern concept of duality and paradox of human cognition."

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@gg13, yes to a lot of your questions. S1-3 is in symmetry to S4-6, so yes, they knew...wait, better put this way. I think that a lot of info is IMPLIED on LOST. That is the reason that when we see the wheel it is in a frozen chamber. Of course, we now know Tunisia is an exit point, but the polar bears were meant to be there. At the start of the show, it was crazy to see Sawyer shoot a polar bear, but they were just not a device for the wheel. Walt might have manifested one or even drawn it to him, polar bears ate workers from the Pearl station. The other things mentioned above are also more or less implied.

Things did change as the show progressed, Capcom mentioned that Eko actually was killed off because the actor wanted off the show and, while abrupt, they gave him a better send-off than a lot of shows might.

I totally agree with you, though, TOTALLY, that about the time of Charlie having to baptise Aaron was when I was most frustrated with LOST. I want to still blame ABC because the first thing anyone does is blame the writers. An example is HEROES, the show is terrible now, I haven't watched it in over a year, yet the writers get blamed. Rightfully so, in this case, but the producers have to review the scripts, no one gets a single blame there. Someone at a higher level with both HEROES and LOST during S2 should have stepped in for script rewrites. Maybe it was attempted, of this I do not know. But, gg13, you pegged it with "Fire & Water," there were reruns all around that episode and I was very frustrated with how little was actually being accomplished over a six-week period.

I've never brought it up prior to this, but I've never tried to rewatch MULHOLLAND DRIVE and have seen very few episodes of TWIN PEAKS. Perhaps my frustration with Lynch was a lack of an internet and bloggers to help me out.

Was Faraday planned? Yes. Was it going to be Jeremy Davies? Who knows? Was he going to be killed by his own mother? Yes, or very likely so, it was a matter of how they would tell the story. That's how good writing works, you lay bricks down one by one, not-so- good writing means you slide a brick out and replace it, horrible writing like on HEROES means you knock all the bricks over and start again.

I'll add to this more, but it takes me a long time to type some days.

Greg Tramel said...

this is an interesting painting, i would say the main bird is a double-headed eagle but the smaller 1 underneath sure looks like Des' shirt symbol


Praeterito, Praesens, Futura

Greg Tramel said...

ah! Wayne, never thought about the brick of writing as a reason the movie Brick was titled Brick, thought it was a strange title

an aspiring screenwriter i knew said Brick is 1 of his favorites

Greg Tramel said...

this kinda goes along with my thinking that Jacob is Lucifer and MiB is Satan

"Egyptians believed that the Phoenix was the representative of a god who rose to heaven in the form of a morning star, like Lucifer, after his fire-immolation of death and rebirth."

Capcom said...

Interesting eagle pic Greg! Heheh, although it's kind of a copout at times, I like this point in the commentary, "The only valid thing in art is that which cannot be explained..." IMO, there's nothing more annoying than a contemporary art exhibit (especially installation art) where you have to read a two-full-page explanation to find out what it's supposed to mean! X-D

Well, I hated Mulholland Drive, but loved Twin Peaks when it seemed to be going somewhere, before it too spiralled down into a Lynch-abyss of ridiculous gratuitous confusion and perversity (i.e. the movie). But, that's just me, pay me no mind.

As for writing-as-you-go, I really don't have a problem with writers of a TV show getting new ideas and making the story take new turns that they hadn't thought of in the beginning, because that's what the creative process is all about. Do I think that following a general outline is wise? Of course. But allowing the story to branch out can also add a lot of interesting aspects to the original story. IMO. :-)

Isn't Satan just another name for Lucifer?

Greg Tramel said...

i enjoyed Mullholand Drive and Twin Peaks even though i'm sure i didn't get everything or even close to everything, i'm sure i miss tons of stuff on Lost and don't understand a some of it (maybe more than i can even imagine)but i still enjoy it

Greg Tramel said...

n my book, satan and lucifer are 2 different entities

Luciferianism

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

Sorry for delete, fixing mistake.

That's interesting. In the Christian bible they are the same (altho recently some liberal Christian scholarship likes to disagree). My Zondervan bible dictionary in the Lucifer entry says, "See Satan, Devil". :o)

I supposed it would depend on which definition or slant one is going by.

Capcom said...

Hey, did you all see the special new Season5 DVD with the "Complete DHARMA Initiation Kit" with it? I only saw it today I haven't been Lost surfing much lately, but it looks pretty cool. Altho, if it's mostly just info that we've seen already on the interweb, I'd rather not pay $70-plus for the S5 DVD. I'll wait until someone at DarkUFO buys it and posts scans of everything. The disks are packaged like old floppies though it looks like, heheh.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

S5 is available already? If its $70 bucks that means I'll find it for $45 at Borders eventually. David Lynch is one of those writers that has vision but, and its just my opinion, he feeds his ego. What gg13 sd about Mission Impossible, etc., well, that's feeding the movie audiences' egos. I'm amazed at how much money a piece of $#!t like TRANSFORMERS 2 made in the theaters so far.

Greg, to me writing is brick by brick. The brick in BRICK was the dope, though. What Capcom says is correct, LOST was outlined, but ratings and focus groups made them deviate certain aspects.

gg13, re: Bram & Ilana. So much of LOST is a series of loops, and S5 loops back to S2. The Hatch is the plinth in the statue, like that. In that sense, Ilana's group, in a way, are like the Others. In fact, they ARE the Others, they converse with Richard, they talk of candidates. "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" is the equivalent of "What did one snowman say to the other snowman?"

I've been wondering, if everyone shows up in 2007, how te hell are the 1977ers going to be told about Jacob, the two Lockes, etc. in a coherent way?

Capcom said...

LOL, it's for sure that back in 2007 Jack is bound to say, "...So you're telling me that..." like he always does about any new weird thing that pops up! :o)

I think that the DI-DVD is a super special edition. The regular S5 DVD will still be available too. I think/hope.

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

BTW, speaking of good odd movies, the 1971 version of "Johnny Got His Gun" is playing tonight on TCM @10pm(EST) in case anyone is interested.

Anonymous said...

ok thanks people!

does anyone know or heard of any site where we can find a list of all unanswered "things" that need to be resolved?

what would you constitute as very important and vital "answers"

who is richard? what is richard? whatever he is... will sufficient believabel explanation be given...or will they just say..öh richard? richard is ra...didnt you realise?"

what is the island who found it first where/when is the island.....who got there first ?how?

that sort of things...appreciate your replies.

regs
gg13

Greg Tramel said...

here is a nice straightforward question/answer blog

but if you throw out 1 question at a time here i would be willing to take a crack it at with the caveat my answer would in no way be completely dependent on canon

J Lost Answers Questions

Capcom said...

I really like that QandA site too Greg. I'm not sure if he updates it as time passes though, i.e., as things are "figured out" by us or revealed in official podcasts, as minimal as that may be of course. I think it's only written for what has been revealed in each ep.

GG13, Lostpdedia has at the bottom of most all the entries (such as episodes, characters, etc.) a theories and unanswered Qs section. Also, I think that DarkUFO has a QandA section as well. I'll try to find that at Dark's today.

dz77 said...

Ok Bigmouth, I think you've solved Lost. no more theorizing is necessary.

Another poster on the fuselage pointed out Charlie's finger tape in season 1: FATE/LATE. He pointed out that Desmond can make fate late, but the universe inevitably course corrects.

I agree with you that Jacob is makeing fate (the end of the world) late... but that somehow through his death and his plan this fate will be changed - to the chagrin of MiB.

great post! :)

Capcom said...

That's interesting DZ, heheh, I always thought that Charlie's tape letters should have been reversed, from late to fate, as the whole fate thing was revealed to us on the show. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I had actually forgotten about Charlie's words, and now I think it might help knowing in which episode he changed the F to L. I don't agree, Capcom, in that at some point Charlie became one of the key players. In the pilot, it was an open field, maybe Charlie was playing up the word fate as a musician deals with the meanings of words. I don't think he was suddenly optimistic. I think it was an early clue that the O6 would be rescued but too late for him. Of course, that's looking back on it from five years down the road.

Still trying to think over the whole Island not being through with Desmond thing.

@gg13, there was one repeat last spring, and I had suggested to Big that, in lieu of a discussion of an episode, everyone bring up a question that has been nagging them, or one they think no one had addressed on the blog. I think the post went about half and half and a few good questions were tossed out there.

I haven't seen the blog Capcom & Greg mentioned, but I know of a few that are outdated with their Q&A. I think Lostpedia is a very good source, but at the same time I find their "Theories" pages at times very brief. But it is a group of people adding to the info, so maybe some pages get a closer look and update than others. Probably what I'm getting at re: Lostpedia, which is a great source, is that the questions are asked and possibles answers given and rebutted in a sorta clinical way. Nothing wrong with that at all, its more like being used to a specific blogger's voice and not really seeing that on LP.

Didn't MEMPHISH IS LOST or LOST TIDBITS recently do a post on exactly what hasn't been answered yet?

And I'm not going with dz77 on Bigmouth cracking the big mystery, again for the sake of argument. I don't know that he has continued to delay the Omega Point the way Big thinks.

Ji-Yeon may not figure into this at all. Sadly, Sun & Jin were/are plot devices, as everyone thought Mr. Paik was important and only his money was. Granted, Ji-Yeon has the exotic energy of a baby conceived on Island, but...so does Charlie, w/o the conception part. The Island might not be through with Desmond because it wants Charlie. Charlie and Aaron are the next gen Jacob/MIB. Isn't it still the case that Aaron should not be brought back to the Island? My kinda sorta thought is that, somehow, the two boys end up on the Island and blend in the the children of the Others. Which almost makes me think of LORD OF THE FLIES. But it's Charlie, not Ji-Yeon, that will figure in S6.

Capcom said...

I don't think that Charlie was optimistic either. I just meant that as TPTB unfolded the whole fate thing, to me it seemed at the time back then that he should have been writing that. :-)

Right Wayne, on some subjects Lostpedia's theories link has no theories at all! X-D

It would be annoying if the babies turned out to be red herrings of a sort, haha. Not that I have any idea what they mean at all at this point. Oh, I like your thought that maybe the island wants Li'l Charlie via his dad!

Since DarkUFO changed the format, I don't see the answered questions section that was there before, only a mysteries section where commenters post the answers, and sometimes they don't agree too much. But there is a forum there GG13, if you wanted to dive into that.

And now that you mention Lord Of The Flies, Hurley reminds me of the "Piggie" kid that they ran off the cliff, since Dave/MIB/whoever almost ran Hurley off a cliff too.

BTW, I went to see "Moon" again tonight with my brother, he really liked it too. Sam Rockwell does an exceptional job as **bleeped spoiler**, it's really incredible.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I hope MOON is playing this weekend, then again maybe next weekend, because then I'll have money. Finished ghostwriting that book July 2nd and still haven't gotten the last payment.

I did watch W 13 and enjoyed it for what it is, which means its engaging, but something I'll likely watch on Hulu or tape and watch at 2 AM. Now that the gw gig is done (for now), I need to catch up on THE FRINGE.

And again, I do state that I think that those who run and write for Lostpedia do a great job that no one is paying them to do, and what I meant was, if there is a theory missing, well, if it is like Wiki, it can be posted by a member. But I'll not fault the entire crew because they've done a ton of work over the years.

20 years tomorrow since we left for the mirr--, um, moon, gang.

Also, gg13, you can always flat out ask about a specific thing you might think has not been answered but us goofballs might have theories about. Is Richard Alpert RA? No, I doubt it. Did Ilana call him Ricardus because he is from ancient Greece or Rome? More likely, though many think he was on the Black Rock.

Capcom said...

I'll drink to that, if not for Lostpedia we'd be in deep doodoo. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

i've been kinda looking into the island being a "dark star"

the subheading in the middle of the page cracked me up

Phoenix from the Ashes

Anonymous said...

i checked the q&a here which goes episode by episode...nice stuff!!

the psychic that told claire to get on oc815........could he have been on the island? didnt they show an episode at some point where he admits that he is no psychic.....with eko as a preist i think.....

hurely seeing libby and ana lucia is real world? is it that the antilocke/smoke is capable of leaving island and appearing anywhere in the world?

from season 5 we learn that ethan was the first born on the island? and he is killed so ungracefully by a drug addict......surely the first born of this island is special? not?

if the swan buttons kept the island invisible form outside world...then why would ben provoke locke into not pressing it...ben does not want the island to be found correct? why risk it?

what are the whispers?

where are the children they collected in season 1?

what about the air stewradess who was giving the looks on jack int he cgae ?

i thinkits time to checkthis lostpedia you all talk aout....everytime ive tried though its a maze...thanks though

regs
gg13

Capcom said...

TGIF Sickies! :-D

Heheh, these are some of the nagging Qs that we all have remaining GG13! The one that particularly bugs me is the Ben/button thing. He tells Locke that it's a joke, but then we can distinctly hear the timer resetting in the background while Locke is stuck, and that means that Ben punched in the numbers. That, and the fact that the Swan didn't blow. So what gives there, right???? Arg! If he was just fooling with Locke's head, what if the situation was different, and the button didn't get pushed?! He would have gotten blown up with Locke. So why did Ben push it? And why did he risk telling Locke that he shouldn't?! :-p

Just try to take Lospedia one topic at a time. If the answers are there, you'll find 'em. If they are still ambiguous, they will say that too, and there's nothing we can do but wait for it, unfortunately. If it comes at all, that is. {{the extraneous puzzle pieces}}

LOL Greg, there ya go! And neat article too. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

gg13, you can never believe anything Ben says even 75%, but at some point its been said that the Others never really knew about the Swan until the 815ers showed up; guess they saw Desmond, but not the computer, plus if they saw Des they might not have known where the feed went to. I'm guessing that the Others really didn't know what would happen, or if they suspected it, as Capcom said, Ben did press the numbers, and he lied to Locke. The only one around in 2004 who knew of the Swan being built was Richard, and, frankly, I think he has a memory problem.

I'm sure the kids play a big part of S6, at least the explanation part. Don't forget the adults from the tail section. The Others (through Jacob or MIB or Room 23) seem to brainwash these new people. Some still dress in rags, others in more modern clothes, like the woman who came to Richard when he was building the ship in the bottle.

Lostpedia is like Wikipedia, gg13, that's why I mentioned that if a section looks incomplete, its simply because no one has added to it. Once you look it over, and I'd start with the Whispers or the Swan, or even Ben, you'll fill in a few blanks. You'll even see links, and for me, the best part is they break up the entries by season, i.e., what day after the crash Ben is captured, etc.

66 degrees here today, people, go figure. Where's the Island again?

Greg Tramel said...

Hey gg13, I said 1 question at a time, LOL

the psychic question is a good 1 to run by Lostpedia, we don't know for SURE whether he really has any psychic abilities but many of us feel he did have some abilities when meeting/talking to Claire BUT for all we know somebody (Christian, Jacob, Charles, Ben, Richard, MiB, anybody else???) paid him off to try to get Claire on the plane

psychic Malkin

Also, Therese, does an EXCELLENT job at analyzing the 2 scenarios (he’s real vs. he’s fake) as well as theorize a 3rd option that “Malkin is a real psychic, and he was manipulating Claire on someone else's behalf. What if Malkin could see the future, and what if the couple that Malkin was referring to was Jack and Kate? "I found a couple in Los Angeles who are very eager to adopt.”

Lost Rewatch: Raised by Another

Greg Tramel said...

i don’t think i would definitively say Ethan was the first EVER born on the island since i think the island has been around for at least 5000 years (but probably longer)

but during his short life he did have some major roles to play in our character’s lives
Ethan Rom

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Loved Brick! My only complaint was that the poor sound mixing almost ruined the film for me. I could barely understand the dialogue! One quick correction: Jacob isn't delaying the Omega Point. To the contrary, its creation is his whole goal. Jacob is postponing the Valenzetti Equation in hopes of creating the Omega Point before we go extinct.

gg13: I'm confident the major story beats -- finding the Swan hatch, the implosion, the freighter's arrival, moving the Island, etc. -- were planned in advance. But when precisely those beats would be hit -- and by whom -- probably were not due to practical considerations. It's a little like destiny and course correction, if you think about it. Certain plot developments are pre-ordained. When casting problems threaten to interfere -- e.g., Mr. Eko hates Hawaii -- the writers course correct and substitute someone else.

Capcom: You ask a great question whether Lost would be half as compelling if it were told in linear fashion. One of my favorite films is Memento. The DVD has an easter egg that allows you to watch all of the scenes in chronological order. Makes the film much easier to follow but a LOT less interesting.

Greg: Yes, Brick is a real darling among screenwriters I know. I really dig your suggestion that Jacob is Lucifer, while the Man in Black is Satan. Fits perfectly with the Gnostic cosmology that I believe informs the show. For those unfamiliar, the Gnostics believe the material world was created by a satanic being called Demiurge. The goal of gnosis is to liberate us from this material existence -- only fools are enslaved by time and space.

Greg Tramel said...

i think that all the kids and Cindy (the stewardess who came to WATCH along with the kids, Emma & Zach) are all at the temple, which i hope we'll actually see in O6

Cindy Chandler

Greg Tramel said...

gg13, i'm gonna take some time to ponder how to articulate answers for the other 2 questions about the whispers and Hurley seeing supposedly dead Ann Lucia, Libby, Eko, Charlie, (who else??)

Bigmouth said...

PS: Almost forgot -- I walked by Radzinsky on Santa Monica Blvd. the other night!

Greg Tramel said...

in the meantime here's a rabbit hole to go down(but unfortunately VERY incomplete at this point)covering Omega point, tarot, Egyptian, Gnosis, 2012, and other Lost topics

i enjoy the title of Chapter 4 "The Wormhole of Daath" and wish there was much more there

Extracts from Omega Point

Greg Tramel said...

oh and i'm not really that much into all the 2012 stuff but i thought this chapter was interesting and might be relevant

The Return of the Phoenix

seeing Radz, COOL! i wonder what else he has been in

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Six degrees of Radzinsky, that's cool, Big. I suppose you could have cornered him and gotten a few answers out of him.

Re: the Zack & Emma and Cindy being their caretaker, more or less, i still mention the other tail-enders grabbed by the Others (per Lostpedia, a guy with a German accent, a few others).

There's a lot to be said for the episode titles on LOST, and "The Greater Good" was a Sayid-centric episoe during S1. I did kind of mangle up the Omega Point post, Big, and it brings to mind the idea of Jacob delaying events in this way. So it is with him not caring about the abductions of the kids, everything else but delaying the extinction of man is secondary to him. Again, I'm conflicted, because Jacob/MIB's argument seems centered around "progress."

I'm not even guessing on the Whispers, Greg, because even if they are explained, the transcripts on Lostpedia are so damn bizarre that I'd wonder if ALL the Whispers were meant to be something.

And, gg13, Big makes it fairly clear (better than I did) that certain events were not envisioned via script-format, the actor who played Eko wanted off the show and the viewers hated Nikki & Paolo and they were killed off early, yet, to the writers' credit, the death episodes meant something. Kinda crazy, the show is about free will vs. determinism, yet, when a character's story arc is so radically changed that they are killed off, it is as if the death was a foregone conclusion since their first appearance.

The comparison to MEMENTO works great, Big. I doubt I'd enjoy it in a linear fashion. There is a metatextual comic writer, Grant Morrison, and his view is that he tells a story in non-linear format because we, the audience, are part of the story and so it HAS to change because of our presence in the book itself.

A curious thing would be to do a DVD extra of EVERY flashback of every character, chronologically, i.e., young Kate would overlap with Sawyer, Sun with Hurley (when the news is on the TV with Hurley winning the lottery). Granted, it would be a huge amount of viewing, but I have the 25th Anniv. edition of BLADERUNNER and there is about 15 extra hours along with the film and the alternate ending. (Bringing that up, and off-topic, Boom! Studios just started a comic adaptation of PK Dick's original book, DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?; its a bit of BLADERUNNER but for the most part the original novel.)

JLC said...

I also believe that the losties and Desmond saved the world twice. In doing this they also prevented "eternal return" from occuring. This is why in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" Ms. Hawking is wearing an ourborus but the snake is not devouring its tail. This shows that eternal return has changed.

JLC said...

I also believe that the losties and Desmond saved the world twice. In doing this they also prevented "eternal return" from occuring. This is why in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" Ms. Hawking is wearing an ourborus but the snake is not devouring its tail. This shows that eternal return has changed.

Greg Tramel said...

the short answer is i think the whispers are analogous to The Watchers (which some label The Nephilim)

JLC said...

I think the whispers are the voices from the lost eternal return time line. The voices of who should be reliving their lives right now.

Greg Tramel said...

originally when i first heard the whispers were being decoded i cried fowl on TPTB saying that they were now venturing into realm beyond what a tv viewer should expect to put up with by taking storytelling a step too far into territory beyond requirements to be expected of a viewer but on second thought i realized it is yet another ingenious example of a way to add texture to the story for those that wanted to dig deeper

Greg Tramel said...

yes JLC, a part of the Watchers mythology is they will "return" or relive and/or be reborn like a phoenix

and to get a start on the Hurley seeing dead people question, i also think Christian, Eko, Libby, Charlie, Ana Lucia and so forth are now in the realms of The Watchers and they too will relive

Hurley can communicate into this realm so yes, Wayne, it is all in Hurley's head BUT there is also a phenomenological reason aiding him in seeing/communicating with these (un)dead

it's a bit easier on the island to communicate with this realm since there is less of a visceral barrier between the realms hence other characters seeing/interacting with The Watchers

Hurley's good heartedness also allows him to “see” into this realm on Earth since in opposition to the notion of The Watchers being evil entities they are there to help and guide

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, Greg, and JLE, where did this eternal return talk start, just curious where to read up on it.

I HATE the Whispers as a means to add texture, Greg, but that's me hating the younger generation for their gimmicks. That said, I applaud everyone at Lostpedia and anywhere else who has taken the time to transcribe the words to paper. And by texture, I mean not the fact that they are a mystery, but that there is no freaking way to follow them, and I'm long used to them now. (I suppose the same could be said of the same music playing before the monster shows up in a B-movie like TARANTULA.) To recap: my pro and my con on the Whispers balance out.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I've looked up eternal return, my actual question was did someone suggest a link or was it mentioned on a different blog. What's interesting is that, back around the time of the Orchid video, I looked up Poincaire's mathematical theory, as it still shows purple on my Wiki page. The eternal return you two are mentioning pertains to Eliade, right?

Greg Tramel said...

i was just noting that eternal return my fit in with ideas abut the return of The Watchers and the cycle of the phoenix reborn

but the way i understand it, the ideas behind eternal return can be looked at through various lenses such as a scientific law, philosophical principles, religious doctrine and/or mythical concepts

gotta run an errand, more later

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Gotcha, Greg. I was asking if maybe the topic came up somewhere else. Weird that my looking it up spiraled into seeing Poincaire again.

Greg Tramel said...

what Wayne?, you have your own wiki?

i know we've looked at eternal return before, maybe Big did a post on it

Greg Tramel said...

i don't think JLC's notion of eternal return has anything to do with Eliade's version

he is talking more about the version represented by the Ouroboros dragon eating his tail (the MiB version of repeating life without progress to some extent)

Jacob(and ??) succeeded in breaking the eternal return loop (the progress to 1 end) as indicated by Ellie Hawking's (& via Stephen Hawking's time travel) Ouroboros NOT eating it's tail

Hawking's Ouroboros

Greg Tramel said...

but there may also be some

Rosicrucian Symbolism

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The Rosecrucians are the likely culprits for the Georgia Guidestones. What I meant, Greg, was when I typed in "eternal return" on Wiki, the Poicaire section was already purple instead of blue. Could be I looked up Poincaire during the crazy Fara-Days.

By the way, Big, you see Radzinsky again, we need someone to write that Forward. I'm waiting on a call from Jeff Jensen...

Greg Tramel said...

LOL, i just picked up Brick for $3

has anybody seen Brother's Bloom

oh, i understand what you mean now Wayne

also, there is a mathematical component to eternal return but i glaze over looking at the formulas but the science side of eternal return leads us to the Hume's analysis of the arrow of time and Maxwell's Demon (from Find 815)

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i get your concerns about the whispers and used to feel the same way, maybe texture was not the right word, maybe more like flourishes on the completed brick story

in one sense they are a postmodern greek chorus and also may mimic the watchers (us the viewers AND The Watchers) subconscious

looking forward to the book

oh Maxwell's demon reminded my i could swear i saw an ad for a graphic novel version of Gravity's Rainbow but can't seem to come up with anything, anybody seen it?

i could not really get into Grant Morrison or Allen Moore but maybe i need to give them another shot but i'm not much of a graphic novel reader, i did enjoy Ghost World (graphic novel and movie)

Capcom said...

Interesting ideas, peeps.

I saw "Bros Bloom". Still not sure if I'd give it a thumbs up or down yet though. ;-) Did you see it? What did you think, if so?

FWIW, for the fact that I'm so tired of the DanBrown-o-mania in the recent past, I'm hoping that there isn't anything too Gnostic-y in the Lost story. :-\

Greg Tramel said...

i think Eloise's Ouroboros is just a stylized version but i'm open to somebody convincing me otherwise

Greg Tramel said...

no i have not seen Brother's Bloom yet, need to see Moon as well

i ran across this blog that reviews the some of movies i like to watch and even brings 1 up the books Sawyer was reading, The Invention of Morel

The Phantom Country

Greg Tramel said...

yes Capcom, i agree that that DanBrown-o-mania stuff has been overkill

Greg Tramel said...

but i think Lost is full of Eastern religious and Egyptian mystery school symbolism, some may can be thought of as Gnostic

Greg Tramel said...

hey Wayne , i think i need you to ghostwrite my comments, half of them don't make sense to me, LOL

Greg Tramel said...

did we ever talk about the east and west being reversed on the compass in The Maxwell Group logo? that might explain what we're dealing with in so far as getting to the island

Capcom said...

I bought/read the "V For Vendetta" graphic novel after seeing the movie, but I found it difficult to follow. It became another case where I liked the movie treatment better than the book, as I LOVED the movie. I'd like to try reading "Extraordinary Gents" sometime though. Alan Moore is scary, he wouldn't like that I enjoyed the movies better, he hated them. :o) moore

Considering that it's a piece of jewlery, as opposed to a blatant DI logo or something like that, Mrs.H's pin could very well be a stylized version that doesn't need too much interpretation beyond what it is. We don't really know if TPTB had it made especially for the show to their exact specs, or if they just picked up whatever Ouroborus pin that they could find that was good enough for the purposes.

That's a good movie site Greg. Here's another one in case you haven't seen it yet: link Not reviews, but news on what's coming up. BTW, I'd like to go see that movie "Food, Inc." (as mentioned on that site) but in the 70s I read an extensive article about how meat is processed and I haven't been able to eat meat on a regular basis ever since. Seeing it all visually would probably send me completely into permanent anorexia. :-p

And I guess that I would recommend Bros Bloom for a matinee price viewing at least. It's not bad, but some parts just didn't add up to me.

Yes, it does seem like some Gnostic ideas and symbolism come from the more ancient ideas too. BTW, I went back to the museum yesterday with my brother so he could see Taweret too, heheh.

Some people said that they found a clipart website where that compass logo came from, so that it means nothing --but more people were not buying that explanation. I don't know what to think about it.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i couldn't get into the V for Vendetta graphic novel but really enjoyed the movie

Capcom, EXCELLENT points about the ouroboros and interesting info about the origins of the Maxwell logo

Capcom said...

Well I like your idea that the pin might be just a flourished version, rather than an object that we should take exactly literal in form. Hopefully an ouroborus is just an ouroborus here, heheh. If only we could ask the costume department a question at ComicCon!

I'd like to think that the backwardness of the compass means something. :-o

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I'm always baffled by people who fing a book more confusing than the film. And not a single film based on Moore's work is done full justice (WATCHMEN, LEAGUE OF E.G.). I think it's more if you had trouble with the graphic novel, you have to have read at least some AM before you'd get VFV. His first work in the US was on Swamp Thing back in 1982, VFV was a script that ran in the British mag WARRIOR circa 1981.

League is a fantastic book, but then, the movie was terrible. Maybe it was the artist on VFV that made it confusing.

My effing computer installed IE8 and I've been screwing with it all day, lost all my bookmarks, and when I pulled up this blog, it was a 2007 entry, then when I clicked the home page, it was in Greek. Swear to Jacob. Good thing is, I'll try that right click thing then Save As and see where the hell it gets saved. Bill Gates+Ben Linus=same guy.

@Greg, re: Whispers. Charlotte says "This Place Is Death!" I speculated that this was a phrase she heard as mom & dad argued. But that seems melodramatic now. Her last words echoed the same as a kid. You think her scream out re: death was her repeating one of the Whispers out loud?

I'm sure you have warmer temps, all, it is in the low 60s here, it was in the 40s overnight...

Capcom said...

Hi Wayne, hope that your computer problems get worked out soon! I always hate updating the software, it always messes something up.

Well, so far the only times I've liked the books less than the movies, is if I read the book after first seeing and liking the movie, the way the movie was. Then when I go to read the book for deeper details, and it ends up being so different than, and out of order from, with different characters in, the movie, that it gets too confusing and I give up. Not admirable on my part for giving up, but oh well. I've avoided reading Ellroy's LA Confidential so far, for that reason, I've got all the movie characters ingrained into my head now, and as good as the book may be, it'll just confuse me. I know, I must be a dolt. So of course I'll have to make sure to read any of your books before they are made into movies. :-)

It got a lot cooler here in Knoxville, but it's in the low 70s in the day and I don't know what at night, but cool. Stay warm!

I'll check out the League novel, and no fear that it'll be less good than the movie, the movie was pretty clunky IMO, but visually nice.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, but Bill Gates is the anti-christ and makes Ben seem like a saint

since you use facebook and twitter, switch to FLOCK

i have a feeling we will NEVER get a straight answer on whether Eloise's special Ouroboros and the screwed up compass on Maxwell logo means anything extra

it would be great to get somebody going to comic con to ask ALL our questions that probably won't EVER be answered

everybody is always raving about Moore and Grant Morrison but they do nothing for me but i would REALLY like to read a graphic novel version of Gravity's Rainbow so i yet to make it all the way through, i doubt anybody will EVER attempt a movie version

it COOLED down to 94 degrees during the day in Houston

Greg Tramel said...

actually, i think this place is death is a bit of a misnomer, i think due to Jacob's influence nobody can actually die on the island, not even Nikki & Paulo (but some may want to argue there is a big difference between being buried or not or having a viking funeral, i'm open to that)

so when MiB says he wishes he could kill Jacob he also means kill all the folks Jacob keeps alive in various states of existence

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, it was an inadverent thing, plus it turned out that along with IE8, I downloaded BING.com. I wiped it all clean, and its back to normal.

DON'T read LA CONFIDENTIAL, whereas the film is one of the best adaptations I've seen, the book takes places over about seven years (1952, where THE BIG NOWHERE leaves off, to 1959)and the film producers did an incredible job of giving the viewer about 85% of the book. I think what you said about characters is true, the film will change or combine characters, which messes up the reading portion. Plus, to read LAC, its part 3 of 4 books, THE BLACK DAHLIA, THE BIG NOWHERE, LAC, and WHITE JAZZ, Ellroy's LA Quartet. The Dahlia film is maybe 50/50 what the book was.

Greg, I was thinking on how that one line Charlotte screamed was different than all the others. Initially, I sd here how maybe she heard a guy at the Orchid or someone say it. There is something to be said about burial rituals, tho. I mean, even Danielle and Karl were buried, and again, the viking funeral with Colleen.

Here's a thought we might never really get the answer to. Charlotte was already dead and MIB made a copy of her, and she spouted stuff to Faraday. Crazy, but then, how did she know about the well? Without the knowledge of the well, Locke wouldn't have turned the wheel. So later, when Faraday tells everyone C. simply disappeared, it wasn't because of the time shifts, it was because MIB made the "copy" go away so he could haul ass and become Christian at the wheel.

I can take or leave both Morrison and Moore, Greg, but Morrison can be much easier to understand once you get that the reader always seems to be a part of the story, he is very meta. If he scripted an episode of WAREHOUSE 13, I'd be lost within ten minutes. Not confused, but just plain lost. His concepts are above me, which is kinda his plan, the reader must adapt to his/her surroundings.

Capcom said...

Aha, thanks for the advice on LAC, Wayne! And I hated that Black Dahlia movie, I practically wrote on Amazon that it was a steaming pile of poop (IMO). :-p But I did like a TV special that had Ellroy on talking about her, the case, and his book. I still want to read his book about that. And yes, it's when the characters in a book get combined for the movie, that messes me up with reading the book mostly.

Greg, I still don't get what "this place is death" was supposed to mean! A couple of seasons ago, the island was curing everyone's (but Ben's and pregnant ladies') maladies. Now it's death? Oy. Perhaps it depends on "who" you're dealing with...if you're with Jacob (Locke's beautiful "eye") it's life, but if you're with MIB, it's death. I dunno. I just hope that we get something from ComicCon to take my mind off of how many things I still don't know about this TV show after watching it for 5 years. Right, GG13? :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

You guys get what I'm saying about Charlotte's outburst, right? She had knowledge of the well, and I doubt that was little kid Charlotte knowing this. Maybe the well equates with death. Actually, what is "This Place" in "Is Death?" The Island, the afterlife, the wheel, the Orchid, Tarawet? I guess I always assumed it was the Island. Whether she's dead or not dead when she is talking to Faraday et. al., why does she know of the well, is she being prompted in her near-death state?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And, Capcom, read Dahlia. But I think you might like a few early Ellroys, BROWN'S REQUIEM and CLANDESTINE.

Capcom said...

Oh that's perfect Wayne, I like it! From now on I'm going to think of "this place" as being "this well place" (or energy place) instead of "island place", and that will fit very nicely into my head and subdue the confusion even if we don't get a better answer than that and even if I'm wrong. Tx! :-D But it could also mean that this island place is death to anyone who can't or won't fit into synch with it, and who instead fights it.

Right, I'm not clear on whether it's crazazy Charlotte talking (like Minkowski?) or if she's "possessed" by Jacob or MIB, etc.

If we get something substantial at ComicCon this week, I wonder what the subject wil be? If it's Jacobian, it will be interesting to see how they tie his non-technical nature in with the very technical internet. Maybe RACHEL BLAKE will come back from TLE looking for him like she searched for Hanso? Oops, I guess that I should explain the caps, RB always wrote to us in all caps in her emails, so any time we type her name we type in RACHEL FONT. Heheh. Quite frankly, I'm wondering how they can tie anything into the internet from the point where the show it at now. Hmmmmmm.

Happy Man On The Moon Day, Sickies! And tx for the book recommendations Wayne. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I think I've figured out what they do now, after this 2nd (3rd) video w/ Chang last year. Whatever we play with, we still get maybe 30% truth, if that. If anything, we get a location (the Orchid, 1977). TLE is before my time, so I have no idea how long that went. I mentioned here where the split ARGs last winter, the DI and Ajira (of course Chang also threw the DI thing at us in the vid), proved to be the greater tell, that the show would split into two times, DI 77 and A 07.

So this time around I'm going to really think out what we see, and even spend the week guessing. Being the last video from San Diego, it should be something very subtle.

At some point the Comic-Con video and the DI ARG got many people thinking that Ilana etc. were the Dharma kids. It made sense.

An early guess: something involving the white flashes and what they mean, the purple sky, some discussion of that. (To give us an idea as to how quick everyone that bounces to 2007 gets up to speed, I think that also might be something, will we see a video with Sun and Jin?). I doubt that they'd be in our face with anything, that's why I mention they might go the math route, have the people in Ann Arbor discuss the exotic energy pocket.

They might do something odd and give us Black Rock stuff or someone with a chunk of the Temple wall. Again, in present day, to have the video make some kind of sense.

Anything else I have, like a dialogue between Jacob and someone, that seems more mobisode than anything else, the intimacy of such a thing.

The last two films have involved location, and I suppose Sri Lanka was one in 2006? If I had to really think on it, I'd say we will see a point somewhere between the Swan and Tarawet, maybe even in the tunnels. Maybe the dialogue will be between Christian and Claire.

Capcom, hard to say how much of what is non-canon is in some way canon. I didn't know of Blake or of DJ Dan or whatever the heck HE did. I think a lot of that (TLE) will be like reading a book and having a bunch of things happen between chapters.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

An interesting SD vid would be of Christian and Claire in the cabin right after Locke leaves, just before he tells been "Jacob" told him to move the Island.

If TLE and the Sri Lanka video, with the Rachel Blace hoo-hah (didn't she stand up in the audience and fake conplain or something?), were in 2005, was there a 2006 video I'm not thinking of? Still in all, each film gave us a unique location--one NOT SEEN until the following season (minus Sri Lanka)--so that's why I'm guessing Ann Arbor, because we will most certainly see AA in some way in S6. I hope.

Greg Tramel said...

so does the comic con video come out the day of the panel? which is not until Saturday

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i hate to break it to you but i don't think we are getting anymore AA even though it would be nice but it reminded me of something that i can't remember if we debunked

i still think that island time is always a different time than Earth time

so even though it was 1977 on the island it was still 2008 on Earth

Greg Tramel said...

speaking of canon, i ran across this, parts of the ARGs sound like they are more canon than i thought

Lost Canon

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I think the LOST panel is at 11 AM Saturday. The panels I go to in Chicago (none on LOST) are pretty much by order of importance starting at 9 AM. Re: AA, if you recall, Chang/Faraday was 1974-77, that's what I mean. If we see AA, we see it in the 70s. But, I agree with you in one way, that there would be no point of showing AA in the 70s UNLESS S6 still dealt with the 70s. Maybe it could be Mittelos. I'm just suggesting that every video seems to pertain to a location we will see in S6. I typed it wrong before, I always try and equate DI 77 with Mittelos in the 00s. I've now confused even myself.

I haven't read the LostPedia page yet, but I think some unanswered questions can be solved by logic at this point. The numbers needed for the button needed to be chosen quickly, so they came from the Hatch door. Somehow the listening post picked up the numbers from the radio tower. My only guess on how they played on the radio tower had something to do with The Incident, that the numbers would play if an unknown person ended up in the Swan. Something like that. Long-winded, I know, but in my head it means if they don't explain the numbers 100%, I think we get it from The Incident.

In my opinion, too many people want ARGs and BAD TWIN and such to mean something. As I said earlier, in part, with the CC vids, we get a nudge, not the truth. BAD TWIN=Jacob/MIB plus some DI backstory, and that is all. I don't need to read the book, or the summary. I think the nuttiest part of the ARGs was Rachel, DJ Dan, the Sri Lanka video, I think because they were really stretching it thin, theatrically speaking. I have to go read a story up north now, but I will check out the article.

Still, I'd like to know anyone's thoughts on what they think will be in the CC video. Not what it MEANS for S6, but what it might contain...and who might be the star.

Greg Tramel said...

i have no earthly (or non-earthly) idea what the comic con video will be but this made me laugh

"This show is death."

got me why Charlotte made the "this place is death" comment but overhearing an adult say it when she was a kid makes sense to me

Capcom said...

Yes I agree, there is/was a lot of details in the ARGs that connect to the show that can be called "canon" to the show. The rest that doesn't connect to the show just lends an unseen mental dimension to anyone who wants to delve into it. It's sort of like why I try to read the book after I've seen the movie, because I would like to find out more details that weren't in the film, especially if it's based on fact. But you don't really have to read the book to enjoy a good film, it can stand on it's own as well.

Rachle Blake was just the linking character between the show and the ARG for the viewers to use as a bridge to get from the show to TLE, if they wanted to. Personally, I'm hoping that she will never be in the show. And that whole DJDan thing did absolutely nothing for me. Most people liked him, but his apsect didn't thrill me. He gave us a few clues I think, but mostly it just seemed like "make work" to me, that didn't really lead anywhere.

Yes, that would be great if they showed some CS vs. Claire action somehow for ComicCon. And I would be thrilled if something involved Ann Arbor or the DeGroots, that would bring it all full circle. Some ancient details thrown in would be very nice as well. Maye the DeGroots found an ancient tablet that helped them with their research! :-D

If I recall correctly, some hints or info seemed to come out a little before the ComicCon panel to lay the foundation (e.g. a website), so hopefully something will "leak" out this week too, but maybe I'm "misremembering", heheh.

I think that earth-time is always our current present time as well. But I'm probably wrong. :-)

In the VE, the numbers were what Valenzetti came up with as parts of the equation that represented the "core numeric values", and the secret island research facility was created to work out these core values to change them. The transmission was to inform the Hanso Org outside the island when they had found a way to change the variables, and then they'd transmit them as changed. VE I really don't understand why they'd stamp them on the hatch, and make them plugged into the timer, except just as a constant reminder of their mission and the most important information of that mission.

Seriously, I think that the Gary Troup thing was a waste of time overall. I thought that Bad Twin might mean something since they made a deal of Hurley or someone reading the manuscript on the show. Altho maybe MIB is Jacob's bad twin? Oh don't get me started again! X-D

Wow, sorry for the bloviating post. But I might as well get all my thoughts out in one sploosh. Now to go read that article. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

could very well be that Dan told Charlotte (when she was a kid on the island) that "this place is death" or with her accent we misunderstood and what she said was "this place is daath" or maybe an infamous TBTB play on words

Greg Tramel said...

somehow were are stuck in a weird loop with Therese Odell, what does she metnion this time? abracadabra, eternal return

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I instigated the Charlotte line; I try and go back to certain conundrums, and since we saw that Charlotte pretty much sd everything else, why the blurt out.

Ah, Capcom. Breaks my heart every time I hear someone say they see a movie then go read the book. Ha ha. I say this from the standpoint of not really watching films unless they are from the 40s and 50s, but if I can, I'll try and read the book before the film leaves the theaters (JARHEAD is an example).

My view on what is/is not canon is still more of the producers throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick. BAD TWIN does give us the light/dark and Gary Troup's anagram is purgatory. And he was the guy sucked into the turbine in the pilot and dated Cindy in the tail section. Some of that connects with things to be mulled over back in 2005. (Aside from the complete BS of the book's manuscript being in the hands of his agent at the time 815 crashed, it just doesn't work that way, Sawyer was reading it and Jack kicked it into the fire. Assumedly, the manuscript never got to the agent, and I forget why I know this. A few of my writer friends laughed at this, back in the day.)

TLE worked, as Capcom sd long ago, because Javier was involved with it. And I wonder if, at the time of the Sri Lanka video, etc., if the producers were even certain where the show was headed. Remember a few replies we gave to gg13? The writers might have thought there'd be a lot more DI scenes on the actual show, and things played out different. But quite a few things can be considered canon if you stretch things out, Capcom & Greg, thx re: Valenzetti, that was how I meant to start the Numbers rant. The punch in the VE on the hatch door, the vaccines, everything assoc. with the pocket of exotic energy.

I still don't see Rachel Blake connecting the ARG to the show, Capcom. I see little details like what DHARMA stood for and their mission statement, so in that way, TLE was helpful. My point here is that TLE was more successful than BAD TWIN as a way of "throwing things at the wall." Sadly for me, its the computer winning over the printed word, ha ha. But then, they could have written a DECENT book, too. Man.

Anonymous said...

ok hi everyone

yestarday i decided to watch all seasons fromt hebeginning again..thsi time with notebook next to me and taking notes like in uni....i never did that in uni and im gonna do it for lost.......something is wrong...anyway.

i saw pilot episode.....and jack wakes up in th emiddle of nowhere.....and the dog wakes him up vincent...this is suspicious. also i noted that the audio crew is playing with funny noises as if to informt he public that something is going on, something is not right, too many electrical/futuristic sounds

when he reaches the crash site.....it all looks so staged and fake..and the sounds are still there..as if telling us that this is a flash back......

i know a lot of minutes of the 1st and 2nd season are gonna make me hate the show especially the slow getting to know the characters part ..so boring..but necessary!!!!!

regs
gg13

Capcom said...

Mornin' Sickies!

I-so-sowwy Wayne! Well think of it this way -- the only kinds of books that I read for enjoyment are design, architecture, science, history, religion, biographies, and other reference books (I know, I'm very nerdy). I hardly ever read fiction (except when I read about 10 of those W.E.B. Griffin Marine books in a row, but that could almost count as history). So, if I'm inspired by seeing a movie to read a book of fiction that I never even thought of reading, to get the original story, that's good right?? :-D I'm not like J.J. who doesn't care about reading books!

Right Wayne, the only way RB connects to the show is via being the daughter of Hanso who owns all that "stuff". Thankfully she'll never be conected to it in any other way! TPTB made a big deal in TLE about who her mysterious mother was, and we were guessing maybe Libby (because she got sick or was in a sanitorium also) or Karen DeGroot, but hopefully all that has fallen by the wayside never to be broached again by game or show or mobisode.

Greg, sometimes I feel that it would be a cop-out if in the end we find out that a lot of things that the Losties had said in the first couple seasons was because they'd been there before (as in the recap in your link), but then other times it seems like a pretty neat idea. So if TPTB did that well, I think I'd like it, since I'm on the fence about it and could go either way. In one way, all this flood of webernet media communication has a huge drawback, and that is that the thousands of us who use it can share all our predictions of what's going to happen. And then if someone has actually guessed how TPTB will end it, it won't be as much fun because it won't be so much of a surprise. That element I feel works against TPTB, giving us too much time (even if it's only 6 seasons) to guess it out. That's also why I try to avoid getting into prediction talk -- either we won't guess it and I'll be disappointed that it's not as neat as we thought, or we will guess it and I'll be annoyed that it's not a surprise.

Good points GG13. :-D Have you seen the mobisodes that were released a hiatus ago? One of them tells how Vincent got to Jack. At the following blog, they are listed from first to last in bottom to top order. The top one is the one about Vincent and Jack. Very curious, all: Lost Missing Pieces

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@gg13, the mobisodes Capcom refers to, I think, were something you could see on your cell phone, but they are on Lostpedia now, where I saw them for the first time. The very last one involves Vincent and Jack.

The sounds are basically ratchets from an amusement park roller coaster, and the best reason to have something as bizarre as this is to immediately divide the survivors, i.e., 3/4 of them will be too afraid to go into the jungle, leaving the story be about Jack, Locke, etc.

Capcom, I was kidding re: the reading of the books, and you do make a good point, any way someone is made to read a book is a good one. The impetus behind the current project with Big had its precedent in a Harry Potter book. There are now books on shelves at Borders comprised of 100% internet material. So it is like going fron Net to Shelf, which is a good thing.

See, that's why I say people like Blake are not canon, in that she was never on the show, and, as of right now, neither was Alvar Hanso. The stuff that is canon (even though somewhat meaningless at times) is something as small as the Apollo bars, because it got everyone interested about Egyptian history and RA, particularly once we made the connection with the Arrow station in S2. In that way, a lot of TLE (more than any other thing) helped introduce aspects of the show.

That's where the non-canon/canon argument shows most, so in that way, nothing about Rachel Blake matters. Nothing about Mittlewerk matters. As individuals, not re: events or discussions surrounding them. What I was trying to say EARLY this morning, I don't I was too clear on it, it was late, was that maybe the producers were simply throwing everything out there, but ended up overdoing it. Mittlewerk could have been dead in the water because of BAD TWIN's ratings. Through TLE we get Hanso, the eventual connections for the Black Rock and the DI, but the whole Rachel Blake & DJ Dan stuff seems weak. I know the idea was to show that the DI were not what they seemed to be, i.e., fun-loving hippies. But this past season made it very clear that these guys were a bigger breed of bastard than they'd want us to believe, exploiting the energy pocket, not run silly tests. I still think anything to get someone involved with using their head and puzzling things out, as the ARGs do, is a good thing. But in the end, it also muddles what truly means something and what was just written because someone says, hey, it looked neat.

@gg13, if some of the things mentioned here, like BAD TWIN, are unknown to you, everything is on Lostpedia. These are things that are barely mentioned on the show, but do play some part.

I wonder if other shows in the future will try what LOST did with the off-season stuff, and if they'll see what worked and what didn't. No one has done it so far and I'm thinking it is because the audience and/or critics could simply say the show is trying to rip off LOST. After next year, maybe a show like WAREHOUSE 13 could be pulling ARGs on us.

Ahem! Anyone at all (Here on EMS I mean) want to speculate on the contents of the video this weekend?

Capcom said...

Wayne, don't forget that Magnus Hanso was on the Black Rock (burial place mentioned on the BDM). And Alvar Hanso is also mentioned in the Swan orientation film as being the founder of the DI (with photo shown briefly). The Hanso Foundation was also on Harper's diploma on the wall. The Hanso name might have also been on Gale's balloon with the Widmore name, but I don't remember. So the Hanso characters are there lurking in the background of the show, albeit not in the forefront of the story at all, you're right.

I really like your idea that TPTB may have thrown too much out for them to handle, especially after deciding to end the show in 6 seasons. In respect to the free handout of the Apollo bars around the world, ABC (execs and interns) was definitely over its collective heads in that logistical nightmare. I would have liked if they also made an online comic like the Heroes guys did. I just want the online version because I'm cheap, on a fixed income now, and don't want to have to pay for it. :o)

If I had to guess, I'd hope that whatever they do at ComicCon will be about Jacob and MIB. I don't know in what way they could do that --how do you "acquire and leak" infomation about two ageless ethereal guys on an island who might be aliens/gods/whatever? -- but I would like that. Maybe it could have something to do with Charlotte's, or the DI's, archeological work? Or perhaps finally we could get some more Black Rock info, since it was the subject of J's & MIB's conversation there on the beach. Or, maybe we could be given some kind of secret govt info about the island, i.e., how the govt found it, how they plotted its appearances, etc. Most everybody likes a little secret governmental spy intrigue, heheh.

Greg Tramel said...

ok Wayne if you insist, comic con video is showing Ilana being inducted into the shadow of statue cult, pans back and it is Jacob doing the induction, pans back some more and Christian is there

Capcom said...

I like that too. :-)

Bigmouth said...

People! Do not pass Go! Do not collect $200! Proceed directly to the theater and watch Moon! Simply brilliant!

Bigmouth said...

Also, I'll try to have a post tomorrow in advance of Comic-Con.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Good theory, Greg. I'd forgotten that we really never got Ilana's full story. Another idea is that we'd see Jacob touching someone we didn't see in "The Incident". But if you look at the last two CC videos, they really imply an aspect of the following season, so I'm trying to think of a S6 tell. Its damining because it is all up for grabs right now.

Right, Capcom, the Hanso name is part of the mythology of the show. Earlier I got a chance to read the Lostpedia page and I was glad to see that they consider Rachel Blake non-canon. I read some of the transcripts and, sorry, it was like, I don't know, worse than John Stamos's acting on ER? That part was more melodramatic than any Kate/Sawyer/Jack scene. But again, they were trying. Maybe they thought a certain demographic wanted conspiracies.

You know what would be cool? a CC vid of the listening post with Toomey and the other guy, or some other scene from BEFORE S1. Of course, I am now contradicting myself. Ah, well. Oh, and to connect the dots, I'll bet a listening station was set up AFTER the 1954 incident, or a l.s. could be what led a sub there, the exotic energy creating a hum.

I've mentioned it before, but look up The Conet Project, guys. You can download actual broadcasts that have been playing for the last fifty years. Look for "Lincolnshire Poacher" or "Swedish Rhapsody."

I don't think having a limited amount of episodes and seasons matters; it was a learning process. Some things worked, others didn't, and maybe focus groups or what have you (focus groups decided the fate of Nikki & Paolo) might have helped integrate the more positive aspects of the ARGs. The other thing is, I never knew about TLE until I was writing that glossary. TLE was the largest of the ARGs, and I truly believe a lot of people missed out on it at least at the very beginning, and I know an equal amount of people who do not mess with the internet as ones who see that they've missed the beginning of something (TLE) and blow it off. When all is said and done, future shows will learn from what the producers of LOST attempted.

Its really Damon Lindelof I'd like to strangle re: putting the ARGs into a book. Marvel hired him to write a 5 issue HULK vs. WOLVERINE comic (that part I could care less about), and it took 4 years almost to the week between issues 1 and 5. It got to be like an office pool at the comic shop. So I'd blame him for not caring about books, the dink.

Re: cost. The over-sized hardback of HEROES v1 was 96 pages and when it was in pb it ran only $19.99. LOST would certainly be less expensive because they wouldn't be doing a four-color job. Now, the publisher would likely jack the price up, but only if the demand was high. Sometimes I think I'm the only one who wants a LOST ARG book. *sigh* I ended up trading my HEROES book for credit since the series is unwatchable as...John Stamos's acting on ER.

Oh, one last thing. Maybe Colleen's Viking funeral is a hint that Vikings were once on the Island, too. Various others could have descendants going back centuries. Still don't get Juliet's branding and what culture that came from.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

OK, OK. MOON on Saturday. Watch the news, Chicago had a NORAD flyby this morning around 3 AM. Didn't get the full story. I have people in SD who will be at the con.

Capcom said...

Isn't Sam Rockwell really incredible in Moon, Big?! I don't want to say any spoilers, but I think that he deserves an Oscar nomination, at least.

You've got that right, Wayne, the TLE scripts for Rachel were terrible. You were supposed to believe that this chick who acts and speaks like a SoCal Valley Girl was supposed to be some kind of computer hacking genius as well as a globetrotting spy doing international espionage? No way, she seemed more like she should be on "Paris Hilton's Next BFF"! It was laughable, to me. But what the heck, it was free Lost fun, right?

To be completely honest about TLE, my participation was mostly vicariously, as far as decoding the reams of clues and hacking the sites. All I did was watch everyone else find the stuff. Although I did get lucky once and was the first one to find a hidden clue on one of the Verizon pages! Wee! But I didn't do any of the compressing of the Sri Lanka video after I saw how difficult it was going to be. I just sat back and watched.

I would love to see an ARG book too.

I like the Viking idea, after all, the Hanso family is Scandinavian! Haha, there's Hanso again! X-D

Well, the limited number of seasons affects the fact that there is no way that they can answer all the dang mysteries and questions that they've put forth. But they said that they never intended to anyway. :-p

Anonymous said...

yes bad twin is the "book" they released in between seaon1 and 2. correct?

i have some more notes...:

ep.1 jack needs disinfectant for kate to sow up his cut on his ribs to continue helpping the other injured people f the crash when he says the "1,2,3,4,5 no fear" lines.....these dissinfectants are alcoholic beverages givent o jack by the wierd stewardess before the turbulances in 815 who was seen in season3 as part of ben;s people...was she sent by jacob also...is she part of dharma...or sent by hawking? she is definately alligned to one of more groups

2. vincent the dog......when jack kte and charlie head off to find the cockpit...vincent is following them somewher in the bushes looking at them giving the impression that he is no dog at all...but someone in the form of a dog following them...smokie? and if yes to smokie....mib? setting up his pieces as soon as they arrived perhaps? but why use a dog? wierd ...anyway

3. as the 3 of them walk, and vincent is checkig on them.....it starts raining and charlie goes : where did this end of the world weather come from it was sunny minutes ago". whent he rain starts purring tropical style locke is shown sitting in the sand getting soacked probably realisations of this magical island dawning on him...or mib cimmunicating with him?

4. at sme point charlie looks at kate and says " every surviving group needs a coward" to which kate replies "no youre not a coward, youre a hero" and charlie is looking into space as if having recollections of something.

5. when walt sees locke playing b/g on his own he asks him is it checkers? to which locke replies: no its better game than checkers, much older, 5000 years old blah blah. .....older better game....some have suggesteed that jacob and mib are playing chess witht he losties and others being their pawns put into place and waiting for the moves....maybe theyr playing backgammon where you have to startegically place your pieces in positions where whichever dice roll (destiny, luck , fate) will give you a safe option to play with ultimate purpose to get into opponents house....... mib trying to get into jacobs "house",,,jacob gettinginto dharma;s "house" ben trying ot get into losties "house" losties getting into dharma;s "house" in 1979

regs
gg13

Anonymous said...

also..........

just how on earth does a pregnant woman survive a crash like that?

one of the most important questions of the show imo

regs
gg13

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@gg13, and how did Locke survive his eight story fall? Was it destiny, fate, or Jacob? My pet theory is that Jacob either touched Claire or that he or MIB talked to Malkin the psychic, scaring him.

Charlie was thinking about his heroin addiction at the point Kate called him a hero. There has been a lot of thought re: Cindy (if it was luck that she survived), and for whatever reason, the guy who wrote BAD TWIN was dating her.

You are on the head re: backgammon. Each piece looks alike and while it is still like chess, the pieces have no identities (King, Queen, etc.) That's why Desmond figures into this, Jacob and MIB have been moving the pieces/people around, but Desmond kept saving Charlie, meaning he never should have gone to the Looking Glass, and the O6 should never have been saved. That's why there were time jumps and how MIB found his loophole, a way to have Locke in 1954 tell Richard that he was from the future and that Jacob sent him. From that point, Richard believed everything Locke told him, and MIB exploited that by taking over Locke's dead body, or, really, taking on Locke's form.

I have always thought that Vincent is an MIB-ghost, its weirder (to me) that a dog survived the crash more than a pregnant woman. A few years back there was talk of an episode told from Vincent's POV, i.e., him wandering or walking with people. I still wish they had tried that.

@Capcom, I didn't even know there was some work to the Sri Lanka video, I thought it was just there. I bet quite a few people just gave up. But, yea, we agree that at least the producers tried something new for in between seasons. Viking/Hanso. Doh. Yep. Even if we don't find the "why?s" out on something like Colleen's funeral, the simple fact that it makes one recall Hanso is enough. Little reminders to off-show info.

@gg13, since you are watching the episodes from the beginning, when you get to the one where Jack finds water in the caves and sees his dad, pay very close attention to when Jack and Locke talk to each other. It sets up both their characters, how they relate to Jacob and MIB, things like that.

Capcom said...

Good points GG13 and Wayne. And didn't one of the Losties also question how a pregnant woman could survive a plane crash? Would be pretty neat for that to be significant in the end, as in, something or someone protected Claire in the fall.

GG13, in some early interviews TPTB said that almost all the times when there is rain, it's really suddenly raining, and they had to work around and through it all the time! :-o

Oh good gravy, yeah, the Sri Lanka video came in spurts over a couple of months I think. You had to find code words or glyphs (70+ in all!) on any of the product sites (Verizon, Sprite, Jeep -- which were pretty cool actually), or sometimes out in the real world, and then plug the code into the SL website. Then you would get a few seconds of the tape. But that's not all, oh no. All the pieces were mixed up and had to be spliced together. And as you tried to fit them together, they sometimes rearranged out of order the next time you logged on to play with them or plug in a new one. It just got to be so ridiculously tedious and drawn out, you're right, a lot of people gave up on it. The people who had special video software to put it together had a better chance with it.

One more day until we might get something neat from ComicCon!

Capcom said...

P.S. Wayne, I posted a comic for you on my blog in case you didn't see it on Sunday. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

for some reason i was thinking some passengers were teleported out of the plane before it crashed

here's some lost comic con tweeters (or whatever you call it)

virtualcomcon

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Capcom, I was over there, but I think Perditia Scientia. I'll check back at the original. I think if one of the original survivors questioned a pregnant woman surviving, at some point you have Locke mentioning how many DID survive. Goes with the chessboard thing. Everyone insignificant was sucked out into the atmosphere or died on impact. MIB/Smoke Monster killed the pilot to scare everyone. Jacob made a list so only a certain number of tail end survivors were taken by the Others, and Boone died only after helping Locke find the radio and the Hatch, then by Bernard hearing Boone, the two groups meet with Ana-Lucia killing Shannon (because Jacob's list re: the abducted kids made A-L trigger happy, which then fueled Sayid's hatred of the Others) etc. Point being: any number of survivors were significant until they were knocked over the chess or backgammon board, you can almost see a pattern for each and every development if you think of it as chess moves. Claire was needed to give birth to Aaron, and in a way, I suppose there is an argument that Desmond was repeatedly saving Charlie AND Claire. Once Charlie drowned, Claire was MIA in less than three days.

Now that I know that about the Sri Lanka video, I am back to my original resentment of the ARGs, kinda. No, not really. I suppose if the actual puzzle of putting together the clips actually related to the show, well, yea. When I meant giving up, I meant people in general who see something has started and decide to wait for the completed project. I truly am surprised that, well, I don't know. Maybe I should think that the makers of TLE were weaned on PlayStation and Xbox. Not putting them down, just saying that I'm not part of that type of player, give me anagrams and the like.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Not really off-topic, but do please indulge. I read James Lee Burke's SWAN PEAK over the last few days and here is a passage from p.336:

"There's different kinds of karma," Candace said. "It's like people's lives are supposed to intersect, but not because that's their fate. The intersection is the place where they make the choice that results in their fate. See?" She was talking to a prison guard named Troyce Nix and he replied in the negative so she continued.

"It means a certain kind of fate doesn't have to be ours. It means there are people we are destined to meet. It's them that lets us choose the door we're supposed to walk through." Then Troyce asked where she learned all this stuff.

"From a guy who used to smoke dope with us in Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland."

Here's something funny, the book is set all over Montana and the Pacific NW, and I read this passage three nights ago, but until I typed it I never made note of her mentioning Portland. Eerie, actually. Now I'm frightened.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And I got people who will be in San Diego in just a few hours (they live near San Berdoo), so I'll try and get info ASAP. Writers always gots people, but it doesn't mean they know how to stay in touch before they leave the con, ha ha.

Greg Tramel said...

time to go back to college


Lost University

Capcom said...

'Morning Sickies!

Wow, that's a great passage, Wayne! That pretty much sums up how I've felt about the fate part of the show after Des had his first timewarp and he/we met Mrs.H. And it sure puts Jacob in a distinct light as well, i.e., he's the one who meets the Losties at their crossroads to give them a "little push" toward their destiny (albeit their destiny of Jacob's choosing). Nice find!

Thanks for the neat link Greg! What's that all about? I'd be happy just getting a black T-shirt with that LU polar bear logo on it -- or a tote bad, I'm addicted to tote bags. :-D

Greg Tramel said...

Dan is teaching a class


PHY 301 SEMINAR: NEW PHYSICS WITH JEREMY DAVIES

Capcom said...

Uh-oh, Physics 301?! I barely passed the 101 level! X-D

Well, maybe I'm smarter now after watching Lost.

Greg Tramel said...

Jack Bender is teaching an art class, maybe more our speed

Capcom said...

Oh man, that would be so awesome. :-o I wonder if his art class will be like taking those "Art Institute" home study courses? X-D

No wait, I just decided that I want a hockey jersey with the LU bear on it, that would be much more apropos!

Greg Tramel said...

maybe i'll start wearing a Dharma jumpsuit to work


Bookstore

Capcom said...

That'll work! :-D

Check out LostARGs, they have more info, as well as all the other Lost online watercoolers of course.

LostArgs

Capcom said...

BTW, the LU site looks to be emersed in the story, but it's called Lost University...I isn't that kind of breaking the fourth wall so to speak, by mixing the show title with the fictional contents? That is to say, as opposed to calling it the DeGroot Institute, or something like that.

Capcom said...

Be sure to check out the images at DarkUFO's ComicCon coverage. Of particular droolable note, the auction items: link

Bigmouth said...

I just realized this response to dz77 somehow got clipped from my earlier reply:

dz77: I really dig the fate/late connection to this post! Charlie's death is a perfect metaphor for the dynamic I have in mind Not only did Des directly delay Charlie's fate, he also indirectly changed the "picture on the box," facilitating Penny's rescue of the Oceanic 6.

Bigmouth said...

JLC: I take it you believe that detonation of the bomb rebooted the timeline? While that is possible, I personally disagree. Ms. Hawking wears an Ouroboros pin because eternal return is a metaphor for the time loop involving her son and Desmond that she must preserve to save the world. Check out my post Three Black Swans for more on this possibility if you're interested. That said, if a reboot does occur, you're keen observation may take on renewed significance. I think the whispers are a combination of the Others talking to each other in the jungle, ghosts like Charlie and Ana Lucia, and flashes of the future like Desmond experienced.

Wayne: I've brought up eternal recurrence or return a number of times, most recently in my recap of the Variable. If you're a fan of Tarkovsky, many of his films feature this concept as a theme. Also, Leoben's refrain on Battlestar Galactica -- All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again -- is a riff on the concept. The names and faces change, but events remain the same.

Greg: I agree re Eloise's ourorboros just being a stylized representation. Still, if it turns out there's been a reboot, we should keep JLC's observation in mind. I'm intrigued by your suggestion that when it's 1977 on the Island, it's still 2008 in the real world, but how do you explain the subs trips to and from the mainland (e.g., to deliver babies) generally, or Daniel's trip to Ann Arbor specifically?

Capcom: I know what you mean re meat LOL! About ten years ago, I watched someone bbq a whole lamb with the head still attached. It was totally a Lisa Simpson "I thought you loved me" moment, and I became a vegetarian for the next four years. Then I started having dreams about curry chicken sandwiches, so I resumed eating meat and haven't looked back. Honestly, the freakiest thing I've heard about Food, Inc. is the revelations about "fresh squeezed" orange juice. It's Orwellian how processed "fresh" has become. Finally, regarding Alan Moore, remember that it's literature. People tend to forget this because of the graphic novel medium, but great literature is challenging and takes work to appreciate.

gg13: Great catch re Kate telling Charlie he's a hero in the pilot! I wouldn't be at all surprised if the writers were referencing that scene when Charlie saves Nadia in a S4 flashback. It underscores perfectly how interconnected the lives of the characters are. Some time back, you asked me what I thought of What the Bleep Do We Know? I was somewhat critical of the inclusion of pseudo-scientific types like Lynn McTaggart, who wrote The Field. However, if you explore the new Lost University website, you'll see a reference to McTaggart's book, which is all about this kind of interconnectedness. So what the bleep do I know? LOL!

Capcom said...

LOL Big. Yes, after going super-veg for a while, I scaled back to semi-veg. Now I'm kind of hypocritical, I can eat meat once in a while as long as I don't have to touch and prepare it. Go figure. If I could, I'd prefer to hunt it myself, because I truly hate the meat "farm factories" where it's processed, it's just horrible.

Did you all see this new DI ABC page yet? link Curious.

More things are popping up at ComicCon for Lost, so keep checking Dark's SpoilerTV CC page, Lostargs, ODI, etc.

ian said...

Hello BM, greetings from Greece..
I just read your post about the "Little Push". The metaphor you're presenting here is more than fitting into the series' philosophy. Perhaps another fitting metaphor has to do with the conflict between the West world and the East (perhaps this is in the notion of your suggestion that Aaron has to marry Sun's daughter in order to save the world).
Another metaphor could be found in the field of politics. It may sound silly but consider that there are two main schools of (economic) thought, the one is that of no intervention and the other is that of active policy and intervention in the way that markets operate.
Hope I didn't bore you, keep enlightening us!

Bigmouth said...

Ian: Not silly in the least! LOST is a thoroughly postmodern work, and postmodernism is all about transcending binary oppositions like east vs. west, capitalism vs. communism, etc.. Along related lines, we're discussing Schrodinger's Cat over on the Comic-Con thread. What better metaphor for transcending the binary opposition than a cat that's simultaneously alive and dead?

ian said...

BM, thanks for replying.
Like lostmio suggested, Schrodinger's cat could be a good metaphor, we've seen Locke being dead and alive simultaneously. But, for the last few days, I 've been wondering if we have already seen a very very early indication for that. Check the 6th episode of S1 at 02:50 where John Locke appears to be standing on his feet and sitting at the same time (wearing different clothes). I don't know if anyone has mentioned that before, but could it be an early indication of binary oppositions or just a blooper?

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