Thursday, July 23, 2009

Thoughts on Comic-Con...(Spoilers)


The LOST panel at Comic-Con takes place this Saturday. I'll update this post with any videos, along with my analysis, when they're available. In the mean time, I wanted to share some quick thoughts about what I hope to see when Team Darlton take the stage one last time to turn our whackadoo wheel off its axis.

First, I'm confident we'll see characters like Shannon and Charlie who have died on the show. Rumors have taken wing that Lost is inking deals to bring back former cast members. Many take this as evidence of an impending reboot of the timeline. As I suggested in A Little Push, however, I think it's actually the reverse.

I believe Hurley and Co. will flash back to 2004, permitting the show to revisit some familiar post-crash scenes from their perspective. We may even see them actively effectuate some of these scenes -- e.g., Hurley will plant Charlie's guitar, Jack will leave the stones with Adam and Eve, etc. -- while dodging past versions of themselves.

Second, and more speculatively, I hope to see some reference to DHARMA or the Hanso Foundation. As I also suggested in A Little Push, I think the defining conflict of the show is Jacob's Tapestry vs. Valenzetti's Equation. If that's right, we should see some reference to Ann Arbor, MI or Copenhagen, Denmark.

On that note, has anyone seen the new Lost University website? It looks official -- could it be the start of a new ARG? That's it for the preview -- stay tuned for updates and analysis!


So much for the last LOST panel at Comic-Con. To be brutally frank, I expected more. Despite the not-so-subtle hints of an alternate or rebooted timeline, I'm more skeptical than ever of that possibility. In fact, Saturday felt to me like a big joke at the expense of the reset speculation, the way Dave poked fun at fans who think it's all a dream.

But the videos depicting an alternate timeline made one important point that I'll revisit shortly. Our Losties could have erased the future we've seen even if they actually didn't. Apparently, the general rules of "whatever happened, happened" and "course correction" don't apply to Hurley and Co. crashing on the Island as passengers of Oceanic 815.

Let's briefly review what we saw in the three videos. Each was an advertisement, the first for Oceanic airlines touting a Qantas-like record of no crashes in thirty years of service from 1979-2009. Obviously, since the world knows Oceanic 815 crashed in 2004, the video must reflect a reality in which the crash never occurred. (If you can't see the first clip, hit refresh on your browser.)

Similarly, the second video is a commercial for Mr. Cluck's in which Hurley describes his good luck since winning the lottery and how he brought his chicken recipe back from Australia. Oceanic 815 landing safely can't, of course, explain the change in Hurley's luck, but it's clear he never went to the Island in this timeline.

The third video advertises an episode of America's Most Wanted featuring Kate. It reveals that, in this alternate reality, she inadvertently killed an innocent man, instead of her stepfather Wayne. Here again, the change can't be traced to Oceanic 815 landing safely. Like Hurley, however, Kate never crashed on the Island in the reality depicted.

Three videos, all depicting a different reality from the one we've seen. Surely this must mean Juliet's detonation of the bomb reset the timeline, right? Not so fast. We all know the Comic-Con videos aren't canon. They don't actually show what's going to happen. There was no second Bunny 15, and Dr. Chang never tried to contact the future with Faraday's help.

These videos are a chance for the writers to introduce important concepts without worrying about continuity. The Orchid outtake raised the possibility of physical time travel. The Chang video introduced the general rule of whatever happened, happened. The latest commercials imply that the crash of Oceanic 815 is an exception to this rule.

But why even introduce the possibility of a reset if nothing has actually changed? It's because most viewers currently see only two possibilities -- either total reboot or strict whatever happened, happened. Taken together, the Comic-Con videos suggest a third way that transcends this opposition. The timeline we've seen is malleable and must actively be preserved.

I still think the most logical way to make this point -- and to bring back deceased characters like Charlie -- is to show Hurley, Jack, and Co. choosing to effectuate familiar post-crash scenes. Remember, the show must still pay off mysteries like Adam and Eve's stones and Charlie's guitar case. I can't see that happening if the timeline is totally reset.

A related scenario focuses on the role of the dead, or rather their ghosts. What is their purpose, and whom do they serve? Maybe they're guardian angels of a sort. I could see some poignant scenes like in Wings of Desire where Juliet watches over Sawyer, nudging him in the right direction, but unable to make contact. Are these angels the whispers? Sawyer's boar?

It's also possible that, instead of flashbacks or flash forwards, we'll periodically flash sideways to an alternate reality in which the Island never influenced our Losties' lives. What might their existence look like if they were never touched by Jacob? It's an intriguing question, albeit one that undercuts my belief that Jacob's intervention is necessary to save the world.

All of which is to say, don't fall for the head fake, fellow Sickies. I'm calling it now -- despite how things may look, there is no reset. The message of Comic-Con is that the timeline we've seen can change, even if it hasn't. Whatever happened, happened doesn't apply to events like the crash of Oceanic 815, which make up the threads of Jacob's Tapestry.

PS: Reading you all everybody's perceptive comments reminds me of one more speculation I meant to share. It's possible that detonation of the bomb creates a "tangent" timeline in which those touched by Jacob never went to the Island. The analogy is to Donnie Darko, where a paradox involving a jet engine yields an unstable tangent universe.


As in the film, resolution of this storyline may require destruction of the tangent timeline. If so, perhaps Jacob's chosen ones are like Donnie -- living receivers charged with correcting the paradox. We may even see the world end in this tangent timeline, offering vivid illustration of what happens if Jacob's chosen ones fail to answer his call to destiny.

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


«Oldest   ‹Older   1 – 200 of 266   Newer›   Newest»
Greg Tramel said...

'm really hoping we can actually take some of the classes

Greg Tramel said...

good point Capcom on LU breaking the 4th wall, maybe it's less an ARG and more a way to academically study Lost, maybe we can finally work on our our PHDs

Bigmouth said...

Greg: I just realized you already beat me to the punch re Lost University. Stymied again by my failure to click on the "newest" comments link LOL!

beer said...

i hope we don't see the losties affecting things in their past. i thought they were trying to steer clear of paradoxes, not create them (even though they already have with a few things, such as alpert/locke's compass)

anyway, comic con in two days, heaps keen

what is this:


Greg Tramel said...

Beer, i''l take a pint of Guinness

it's Schrodinger's Cat

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, DI for ya

News from the Dharma Initiative

Capcom said...

It's starting to look like the LU thing is just for a Blue-ray release only -- perhaps the S5 B-rDVD -- that will really exclude a lot of peple who don't have that capability. Phooey on them, if so.

Be sure to sign up for email updates though, just in case there is something to do online in Sept.

I'm thinking FBs with the original Lostaways as well, but I would not be averse to some ripples in time back to 2004 in other way also.

Have to keep an eye on that DI site!

Greg Tramel said...

i have the LU reading list in a word document i can email anybody so somebody can post it (even though i'm a bit of a computer nerd, i've never figured out how to post a word document)

i HOPE it is more than just an ad to sell the DVDs

Greg Tramel said...

this is a similar book to one on a LU class reading list

Yet Another Twist - Einstien, The Swan, And The Eldridge

neoloki said...

The blu-ray probably will have videos from the professors talking about subject they are "teaching", but in no way will it be exclusive or simply an advertising campaign. I think this is pretty clear if you read through the web-site and see it's future inter-activities.

Also, it is unlikely the 77's will end up in 2004. Darlton have confirmed that time traveling is done and with Jacobs "they are coming" we can expect all 77's to end up in the present.

Greg Tramel said...

ok i'm ready for some schollin, i noticed 1 of the books was by LeFluer

Bigmouth said...

Beer: I think they're trying to steer clear of "grandfather paradoxes." There have already been several ontological paradoxes on the show, including the compass and setting for Daniel's time ray. Basically, the guitar loop is Jacob's counterpart to the compass loop, which was initiated by the Man in Black.

Neoloki: But the time travel can't be over unless they're stuck in 1977 -- something has to get them back to 2007 at the very least. Also, my speculation is consistent with recent comments by Matthew Fox:

* The opening scene in Season 6 will confirm what happened in the Season 5 Finale and that it will be both confusing and surprising at first. [I think this means they will see Oceanic 815 crash again.]

* About a third of the way through the season both time lines will be "solidified into one time" and there will be one linear time throughout the story on the island with no more flashbacks. [I think the pit-stop in 2004 will occur during that first third of S6.]

Greg: Shoot. It does look like a Blu-Ray advertisement. That probably means the lectures won't be publicly available. But hopefully some fans will liberate the information so we can all benefit. BTW, is that "New from the Dharma Initiative" film official?

Greg Tramel said...

we will get the lectures somehow, since the video is from the ABC website i consider it cannon, i guess

Greg Tramel said...

i think it was 2008 when Dan was in Ann Arbor, that's why he knew Chang was right on time, he read Chang's report of the Incedent

I'm thinking they went to where Juliet's sister was to have the off island babies, remember we saw Ethan there

Greg Tramel said...

but i guess we do have the sub arrivals the 3 years LaFluer was ther new sherrif in town

ok, debunked

Mang said...

Bigmouth, I am a fan of a television series on the History channel called The Universe. Two of the Lost University professors for physics courses (I strongly believe)are contributors to this series. In fact, I'm sure that I just saw Dr. Sean Carroll on episodes involving dark matter and dark energy, and on gravity. That certainly puts a perspective of reality into this venture.

Continue the great work BM, I lurk as always...


Thirty-Fiver said...

I suppose I should just wait until tomorrow before posting questions/concerns like this, but I'm anxious and bored. :)

I'm kinda worried Darlton are going to go the reset route. It seems like it's been the most talked about topic in the LOST community lately but to me it sounds like it goes against everything Damon and Carlton are all about. If they do go with the reset, don't you think they would owe the Heroes writers an apology? I'm not a big fan of Heroes by any means, but I've heard more than a few comments by Darlton (when they were first introducing the flashforwards) on how they would not want the fans to think the stakes on LOST are not real. That reseting things, like Heroes has done, would take away the drama that the audience has invested in.

And how would they deal with Jacob, Ben, and Flocke's story line? If they reset are they just going to wipe Jacob's death clean? I just can't see it happening. And anyways, even if they wanted to there's not enough time, imo. There has to be some other kind of game changer. I personally just want WHH to prevail and have the 77ers get back to '04 somehow. That way we can get on with this war we supposedly have coming. But Bigmouth's idea sounds really interesting too. But with 18 hours left, I find that theory hard to pull of in time as well.

Sorry for the rant. I can't wait for tomorrow's video and I look forward to hearing what you folks have to say about it.

See you tomorrow. :)

Greg Tramel said...

no reset just further progress along the long thread no matter what "year" they are in

neoloki said...

I forgot about those Mathew Fox comments, but I always thought it was strange he would give out information like that, especially since it hasn't been written yet.

Also, I am making an assumption that when Jacob says they are coming he doesn't mean a week from now and he is referring to the 77's flashing forward in time immediately with the blast.

So, we have Darlton saying no more time travel (except 77's returning to present) and Fox saying the time line will merge a few episode's in? HMMM...

Well, maybe we will get some clues today. Oh and I still don't think Lost U is just an advertisement and we won't get an inter-active experience. When enrollment starts on September 22 you get to take a test. So, are they just going to tell all the people that enrolled in September that they are shit out of luck once "classes" start in December because they don't own the Blu-rays? That just won't happen.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I'm around, gang. Going through one of my Quasimodo periods, typing like a carnival geek.

Bigmouth has sd the Island is sentient. What if the Island's TIMELINE is sentient? Eloise can course correct because she is part of the Island's timeline; presumably Widmore can do the same thing (unless banishment affects this.)

The course correction is automatic, there is no reboot, the nudges and pushes are needed, but so far everyone who has don the above was on the Island at one time, even Charlie and Desmond.

Jacob expected to die because he knew it was part of the timeline.

Capcom said...

Good thoughts everyone!

Big, do you mean this film? link Even if not, this Mysteries of the Universe thing is reminiscent of Chariots of the Gods.

Don't forget that the G4 channel has live coverage of ComicCon this weekend.

Wayne, do you mean that the island could have its own timeline? I think that I could actually follow that. :-o

Capcom said...

P.S. Even if S6 is not time-travel-centric like S5 was, they might need an episode or two to get the Losties where they need to be, and then move on from there.

Capcom said...

FYI, DarkUFO has broken down that Mysteries video into some of the images and info here: link

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I'm thinking outside the box. Jacob and MIB seem (to me) to know things past, present, and future. What if its the timeline itself that allows them this info? I.e., they are not crystal ball-seeing the immediate future but, in a way, they can talk with time, or the Island can allow them to converse with its timeline. One way of figuring out how to get the 77ers into 2007.

I would think that an interesting thing would be that the 77ers appear on Hydra and see Ajira. If you recall, MIB/Locke implied something like "you know what to do" re: the remaining Ajira survivors. And we still don't know who was shooting at Sawyer and Juliet from the other outrigger. This WAS in 2007, because they found an Ajira bottle.

Going back to my first idea though, if it is Jacob's death that pulls them back, do they arrive in 07 at just the right moment because the Island's timeline pulls them along and drops them, like a needle on a record? I'm thinking that there is only one timeline as far as course correcting is concerned: The Island's. Not the rest of the world, which is why Eloise is so protective of the Island. Faraday must have had some wild $#!T in his notebook.

Greg, beer, neoloki, am I nuts?

Greg Tramel said...

sorry Wayne, HUH? i'm not sure what you're saying

comiccon was a long con, bit of a bust

Greg Tramel said...


razzle dazzle

neoloki said...

I can't say this idea is totally mine but I have been thinking along these lines because it seems slightly unlikely the 77's will just flash to 07 and drop on Alpert and Iliana.

This also goes with comments Fox has said about merging timelines and Darlton has said about reconstructing the story telling method, ie. no flashbacks or flash-forwards. Also, Eliose's I don't know what is going to happen now has really been bugging me because I don't know whether to believe her.

How about two simultaneous time lines running parallel to each other. One in which The Swan was never created, ie. 77 on and Hurley is a happy millionaire and Kate never kills her father. The other would be the time line of The Swan and the 815 crash that leads all the way up until Jacob gets killed. These simultaneous or parallel realities could explain some prop manipulation like the pictures on the stairwell in the first ghostbuster scene of Miles and it could also lend an explanation to the whispers.

Would this work? Would Darlton try to pull off something that could potentially be more confusing then time travel?

Any ideas? I like this approach and I think we might see a lot of discussion about it on the blogs over the next 5 months.

KoreAmBear said...

Hey guys a recap of the LOST panel:

The videos for the panel are up too:

I think the coolest news is that we are going to be learning about Richard the Egyptian Alpert's backstory. Also, we're going to find out who's making those Dharma food air drops, LOL.

KoreAmBear said...

Oh, btw, every time I think of Razzle Dazzle I think of the hip hop song lyrics: "all I'm gonna do is go zoom zoom zoom and a boom boom [just shake your butt!]."

KoreAmBear said...

One more, here is the Oceanic Airlines commercial that Damon introduced during the panel session:

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I AM stretching it, but Neoloki is close to what I'm TRYING to say, the Island, its past, present, and future is SENTIENT, so anything that happens on the Island can in a way create the two timelines N. mentions. But I think over the first two or three episodes, we would see the two timelines merge, as the Island has the strongest one. I'm just thinking way out stuff, that if the Island is a living being, then it knows everything at all times. And Jacob and MIB are its playthings.

Thirty-Fiver said...

For a reset theory, I really like your idea, neoloki [or whoever you got it from :)].

It definitely would explain the changing picture frames, and also a lot of other minor changes that have happened on the show. For instance, the different dialogue in the pier/dock scenes with Sayid, Jack, Kate, Ben, etc.

Well actually, now that I think about it how would the dual timelines fit in with the discrepancies we've seen? How would Sayid, Kate, and Jack even be at the pier talking about going back to the Island if one of the timelines includes them not crashing on the Island?


neoloki said...

I like the idea of the Island being sentient, but before I commit to this I want to see if a rumor I heard (from Emerson?) is true and that their is another figure we have not seen yet that Jacob and MIB answer to. If this is the case then He/She is the puppeteer.

neoloki said...

Their is a guy on DarkUfo who just posted a separate reality theory this morning, Matt and last night in the comment section for comic-con panel someone going by Eugene also posted a better written Parallel reality theory.

Greg Tramel said...

i thought TPTB have said NO alternate/parallel timeline/universes

i think there is only 1 timeline, WHH, what's done in done

but that being said earthtime and islandtime don't mesh even though they are all in the same timeline

that 815 didn't happen (Kate killed her dad's assistant instead of him; Hurley flew 815 to LA to launch his new chicken dish; that Oceanic has never had any crashes)is a ruse a long con at comic con

Greg Tramel said...

no reset can occur, WHH, but a mulligan is a whole different ballgame

Greg Tramel said...

the idea that spacetime goes in successive years from 10,000 BC to 2009 AD is the BIG con

only fools are enslaved by space and time

Greg Tramel said...

yes Noeloki, Jacob and his plural(MiB) are just as much puppets as Ben in this long con

some like our Lost Characters have more Gods to go though than The Others along the way

Greg Tramel said...

parallel timelines are a matrix we're fooled by

Greg Tramel said...

35er, Miles has been down that staircase more than once but not in different universes and/or timelines

Greg Tramel said...

MiB killed his Jacob mythology half for the enlightenment of The Others

neoloki said...

In the end they are going to mesh parallel time lines and whh into one overriding concept. Yes, I think it can be done especially if you approach time spacialy.

Thirty-Fiver said...

Neoloki, it was Titus Welliver who had the idea Jacob and MiB answer to some other higher power. :)

Here's the link:

Greg, is there really a difference between a reset and a mulligan?

neoloki said...

Thanks thirty-fiver:

I read that on Doc Arzt's blog. Great web-site by the way. In combination with EyeMSick much better conversations than on Darks site.

Greg, I think I am a little confused at what you are getting at or are you just trying to work it out on paper, so to speak.

neoloki said...


are you going to do any revising to your A Little Push theory with the little we learned from comic-con?

by the way, Christian (MIB?) uses that exact phrase, "just give it a little push.." when telling John to turn the donkey wheel in This Place is Death.

Capcom said...

Wow, great thoughts Sickies!

Sounds good to me Wayne!

LOL, Neoloki, D & C have already pulled off things more confusing than I ever thought that *I* could ever follow! X-D

Two converging timelines would be really interesting, if TPTB could pull all that off in one final season. I know what you're saying about that Greg, but just remember way back when they told us that Lost wouldn't be SciFi. ::cough!BS!cough::

Yeah Koreambear, I laughed last night when I saw that stewardess on the O-A video say that they had a 100% perfect safety record, or something like that, what's up with that?!

Thirty-fiver said: "Crap." Heheheh. Ditto. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

yep, still trying to work it out on paper

with a mulligan, WHH, what's done is done



Greg Tramel said...

815 crashed and will/has crash

"when" is a whole nuther story

Greg Tramel said...

neo told me there is only ONE timeline

Capcom said...

Soooooo, is ComicCon over already? Kinda seemed like nothing much happened in the Lost universe this year, compared to previous. Poor TPTB, we are so spoiled now. Poor us now too.

Thirty-Fiver said...

Yes! Poor us! :P

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg and anyone who even likes my goofy idea--oh, and first, Bigmouth himself wrote about the Island being sentient--I'm being abstract about it, but to me it even helps explain why every time the time jumps occurred, it happened at a critical juncture, mind you, even vice versa. That is, who is to say that the French team didn't wash ashore because of Jin floating near the beach? Anyways, I'm just tossing it out there that the Island exists at all points in time, kind of like WHATEVER HAS AND WILL HAPPENED HAS AND WILL HAPPEN(ED). I'm just pushing Faraday's phrasing a bit further.

And I believe the Island is the one pulling Jacob and MIBs strings. Or find out that there is one true entity and that Jacob/MIB are the split-personality Bad Twin.

Capcom said...

Well, we do still need to contend with so many people saying "what the island wants" all the time, so you could be right Wayne.

I still wonder why Smokey often sounds mechanical, if it isn't just TPTB trying to throw us off track with goofy sound-SFX. Or is it part of the island/spaceship? I dunno.

Heheh, I'm all for the Bad Twin thing being like that, I've got to justify buying that stupid book somehow!


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, go with what I've said about 1977-2008 happening over and over again, S1-S5 (or 6) being the only time we've seen it. There could be subtle things happening to attune the correct frequency, and while The Incident might have messed with things (or not), so also did Jacob finding his loophole (or not).

Big sees Hurley in 04 putting the guitar case in the banyan tree for Locke to point out to Charlie. This is a cool thought, and, technically, stopping in 2004 does NOT constitute a time jump, more like a pit stop before hitting 2007 (wonder how the hell they'll explain being a month in the past once all is said and done).

I see no real point to having Jack place the stones with the skeletons (I read that theory somewhere), but it would be interesting to see if Miles shoots straight to 07 but Jack & Kate, like Hurley, and Sayid if he is alive, have other "chores" to accomplish. The scene with the guitar takes place seven days after the crash, when Jack finds the caves, he bemoans Joanna drowning and it had been six days with him still not knowing who some people were.

So...thoughts on what Kate & Jack might be expected to do on their way back to the future? If this is indeed something that might happen.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, one of the guy's wives suggested a roller coaster ratchet when they were trying to come up with a unique monster sound. Am I right in thinking that once the Monster kept most of the survivors afraid to enter the jungle, the sounds dropped back to the normal tree crashing and the occassional howl?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

But, yea, I think the "con" is not over yet, that it is not MIB who is Jacob's bad twin. As we've discussed here, Jacob and MIB's agenda at times seem to be in tandem, and if J. is so righteous, why let Nadia die in order to recruit Sayid? That sounds more like what MIB would do (Sayid getting revenge against Ben for being his hired killer).

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Wonder how much the Blu-Ray people paid off the LOST producers? Maybe Blu-ray is the bad twin, whatever the hell that means. I'm hot and tired.

Capcom said...

I'll drink to that about Blue-ray! Phooey, I'm just jealous cuz I can't afford it.

I'm thinking that all of what you're saying Wayne is going to tie in with why the Oceanic stewardess says in the ad that O-A has a perfect record. Did the reset work and 815 didn't crash? Is there a second timeline? I have no clue, but something is weird there and it smells like what you are talking about with things getting "arranged", or redone, or the like.

Hmm, I'll have to think about your Smokey question, I've never considered that before. You could be right there also. But I think when it grabbed Locke to take him into the hole, it made the chain-gear sound...but I could be wrong.

Anonymous said...

hi everyone,

was the oceanic 815 supposed to crash on island or not?

if it was supposed to crash then desmond not pressing the button and pulling them in was destiny doing it on purpose.

if they were not destined to crash on island i can understand the story going in th elines of the heros travelling back in time to prevent what happened to them.

but if they were supposed to crash..and therefroe brought by the others or whatever powers that be there the first time...then they have a purpose to fullfil....this purpose has nothing to do with time travelling because the concept of time travel is only introduced once the island is in danger.

the island goes into danger because locke and desmond dont press the button...allowing the freighter to spot the island;s coordinates

was the purpose of the 815 crash to bring in the person who will put the island in danger? was that why destiny decided to create conditions that would result in desmond delaying pressing the buttons and pulling the 815 (when chasing inman)?

and if the island is the controller of destiny why would it set itself up like this? "lets bring in the people who will put me in danger and then ill send them to time travel to correct them putting me in danger when i was the one who invited them here to put me in danger in the first place"

did the chicken lay the egg or the opposite?

this purpose exists only if they were supposed to crash....which is a crazy circle with no real answer if you think about it.

- were they destined to crash?
- if yes, what was their purpose
- if they crashed on the island to send themselves back in time and prevent the crash, then there is no real purpose, just an accident and the efforts of the heros trying to get back home
- if they crashed on the island to save the island (implying they are chosen) then thats a ludicrous idea cause they were never supposed to be on the island they just happened to be on a plane flying above it.
- how do we save ourselves from this mistake? we show jacob having contact with the losties prior to crash time.
- and while the producers have been feeding the idea that the losties where chosen to crash there the first time in ordert o save the island from something....the way the story goes suggests that had they never crashed there the island would be safe.
- if they were chosen to crash what was the purpose of their crash? surely not to put the island in danger.....

and if they werent supposed to crash there is no purpose....just a random plane accident.


Greg Tramel said...

yes Wayne, islandtime is timeless and does not mesh with earthtime but earthtime is a con so maybe islandtime is closer to the "truth"

that dang Oceanic commercial has me stumped FOR NOW but maybe i just answered my stump

Greg Tramel said...

gg13, WHH, 815 crashed but our "perception" crashed of the crash as well during this do-over

but i think it is a bit irrelevant whether or not it was "supposed" to crash


Capcom said...

Happy Monday all. :-)

GG13, your questions make me feel sorry for anyone who begins to watch Lost after it's all over, because they are going to know the ending before they even watch it and it won't be any fun really.

I think that all of your Qs are the things that we aren't supposed to know yet (or ever?), so hopefully S6 will tell us what was actually supposed to happen, or what someone or something meant to happen. ???

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg and Capcom, I was going to repeat the mantra of the Oceanic commercial being non-canon (for now), but after S1, there WAS a website where Oceanic mentioned the crash and future flights being suspended. Going with Big's idea that the 77ers will stop in 2004, what if in between S5 and S6 we are seeing the timeline wiggle and tune itself? For right now, Flight 815 did not crash (or maybe the flight NEVER EXISTED IN ORDER FOR IT TO CRASH) and once everything goes back into place--the repeat of 77-07 that might have stopped with Jacob's death--then we get the events from S1 all over again. So, as of right now, Oceanic has a perfect record (maybe it is Ajira or Trans-Pacific that doesn't), but come 2010, Flight 815's crash will have been ancient history. Again.

@gg13, it took the time jumps to show the scope of just how many loops there have been, and the first few seasons seemed to show how random lives intersected, not looped around. Perhaps they were straight lines until Jacob's touch caused their loops (or curvatures), Kate becoming Kate, James Ford becoming Sawyer.

I think the biggest in joke would be Jack and Christian. Pair o' docs. Paradox.

gg13, they don't just save the Island, they cause the birthing problem. In effect, Juliet is brought to the Island to fix the pregnancy problem that she may well have started in 1977, with the radiation from Jughead.

Bigmouth said...

Sorry for the delay in posting my review, you all everybody. As I mentioned in another post, we had a death in the family this weekend. But the review is up, and I'll try to respond to your great comments shortly.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne you may be on to something,

i'm gonna tweak it just a bit by saying maybe the the 815ers crashed on the island on Ajira (2004) and the 316ers crashed on the island on Oceanic (2009)

Greg Tramel said...

but back to the islandtime vs earthtime, Big reminded us we have the DI sub arrivals in the 70s

only thing i've come up albeit a bit lame is the drug they used caused them to forget what "year" they were living in while on their sub journey from earth to island

Greg Tramel said...

sorry forgot to include in the previous comment, this is just a response to the Oceanic commercial which was very specific on the earthtime

i have to watch the other 2 comic CON videos again but where there any earthtimes indicated as specific as the Oceanic commercial?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I should have mentioned that my comments re: the in-between of S5 and S6 are in response to the videos. The tapestry unravels but then gets sewn back up, and after a fashion, we forget that odd blips in reality. No outback chicken, alas.

We might not be on the same page... when I mention Island timeline; I never even consider a timeline in the World. Think of it like this, from the big bang until entropy (just to use some reference points), the Island's timeline has always played out. It has ended. The universe has ended. But during the course of that omniscient timeline's straight path with the occasional course-correction strumming, the Event we have seen is the loophole, whether it be MIBs or Jacob's or another power. The loophole started in 2004, continued to just past Locke's actual death (the future)then back to 1977 through 2007. If anything, what reboots is the month between Dec 07 and Jan 08. (I'm approx. 60 days between Ajira on Hydra and Locke in Tunisia, then visiting the 06, etc.) Those 60 days in effect become a do-over, they might be completely eventless.

So in regards to the timeline on the Island, I guess I'm trying to say that there is no real fixity to the future, the Island makes us think we are doing the right things, but its already been there/done that. The Island has seen what mankind's progress has been thousands of years from now, it just needs puppets to play Stop the Omega Point. Too convoluted for the final season, but that's my pet theory on the Island's origins. The Black Rockers were puppets, the Hostiles were/are puppets. Like that. The Island unravels whatever tapestry is given us, history might be lost where the tapestry cannot be sewn back up.

By the way, re: that 80s show on the Lost website, when I saw the book with the empty pages, I thought of Regina on the Kahana. She had a book upside down, it DID have a real name, but was blank.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, per your last comment, no "earthtimes" mentioned, and it is interesting that they use 2009 as the commercial date instead of, say, 2007. I think the idea would be neat that Oceanic was formed the year of The Incident.

Bigmouth said...

You all everybody reminded of one more whackadoo speculation -- tangent timeline. I've updated my post to explain further.

Capcom said...

Phooey, yet another reason to be sorry that I've never seen Donny Darko. :-p One of these days I'll see it at the used media store and get it.

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom, make sure it is the director's cut of Donnie Darko, his other movie Southland Tales rocks too

his new movie drumroll,


i liked S.Darko as well but not by the same director

all 3 involve time travel is some form

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, i don't think Oceanic was around yet at the time of the incident

guess we are on 2 different pages, i'm sticking with:

WHH to every character happened

the people on 815 and 316 were involved in crashes/teleportation

1 timeline

no parallel/tangent/divergent timelines

earth's version of spacetime is meaningless on the island

no timeloops/resets/reoccurrences on the island

Greg Tramel said...

the box

southland tales

Greg Tramel said...

oh, and there was not even any time travel on the island since "time" doesn't exist

Greg Tramel said...

interesting scenarios at this blogpost, i agree with ZachsMind in the comments with a slight variation

'Lost': Looking at the alternatives

Capcom said...

Tx for the links as always Greg, will be reading the tomorrow. Adn for the movie recommendations.

One quick thing before I hit the sack -- this was just posted anonymously at LostARGs:

"There are hieroglyphs on the print LOST/Kia ad that ran in Entertainment Weekly (they are on the film canister)-- could this have something to do with Prof. Nussdorf?

Also, when you dial the # on the card and press the star key, you are asked for a password. (this is why there's a STAR next to the phone number) Has anyone cracked it? Could the ad contain the password? (maybe the glyphs?)"

I have no idea if this is fake or what, just wanted to pass it on to the Sickie spies to check it out and see what you think. I didn't call the number -- but it's the one on the back of the card passed out at ComicCon.

'Nite all! See ya fresh in the morning. :-)

neoloki said...

To write off the videos as a joke on the speculation of a reset is a rationalization. A terribly unwise one. The videos, even though they will not be canon,like previous comic-con videos, have a purpose. What exactly that is we won't know until January, but I do very much like your tangent universe ala Donnie Darko, Bigmouth. I am sticking with parallel time lines. So far it make the most sense out of all the post-comic-con theories.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, Donnie Darko is a film I never watched until it was mentioned here several years back, and for whatever reason, I wasn't impressed as much as wanted to be. I'm distancing myself maybe another year and then trying again. Sorry, Greg.

And, Greg, you actually are hitting on what I'm saying in a few spots. One being the time flashes not happening because the Island has one timeline past, present, and future. Isn't it more than coincidence that EVERY SINGLE time flash brought those involved to an important moment in the Island's recent history?

Big, the tangent universe is a better way of putting what I typed earlier, the hole in the tapestry that gets sewed back up between S5 and S6. Since every CC video has given us directional pointers for the coming season, though not real thing, here's my guess. We have Hurley happy, Kate killing the wrong guy. The impression would be that we have seen the wrong past in S1-4 or 5. What if it ends up that a key player, O6 or otherwise, just blips away? What if the "reboot" fixes the false past that we've seen, but not involving Hurley or Kate? Those videos are red herrings. The real clue to be seen is that key flashbacks from S1-S4 are not different and as such affect the way the characters are now, with only the viewers the wiser. Sawyer could be more like LeFleur with his wife Cassidy back home in Alabama, as an example.

Jesus, a Lost clue in a KIA ad? You young'uns just keep me filled in every time you visit Hermitville.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I just pressed the # on my phone and Rumsfeld picked up, not that Nussdorf guy. I knew D-man was still screwing with me.

Anonymous said...

thank you for your thoughts

i will continue watchig s1 s2 again and come annoy you with my you dont mind...its just that here it seems you can find answers..

on the subject of donnie darko...i have wathed it 12 to 13 times....4 or 5 of them were in two days....

very impressive debut film....hard subject to tackle and tckled superbly...but.........the jet engine that kills donnie comes from a timeline that never existed......the timeline with the jet engine from the plane with his mom and the timeline from which the jet engine falls into donnie;s room......and this timeline is deleted...therefore there should be no jet engine in the first place.....the tangent universe where the artifact came from never existed....

some loose ends but overall great cult film.....

Greg Tramel said...

i'm in no way saying the comicon videos are a joke or even a red herrings for that matter because i think they do offer meaningful clues into what's going on the show

since i don't think the videos were outsourced like the ARGs and even the enhanced episodes were i'm taking them as being worthwhile pieces in the puzzle

BUT i'm thinking they are intentionally misleading tricking us into thinking there was a reset and 815 didn't happen enabling viewers to affirm their alternate/tangential timelines theories

Greg Tramel said...


Lost Destiny Found

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne try Southland Tales, it's a whole different thing compared to Donnie Darko, i completely understand issues people have with Donnie Darko BUT the movie really works for me, i'm sure you like some movies i don't care for

Anonymous said...

Hey, have you ever read Mircea Eliade's Eternal Return theory of Sacred and Profane? It follows with your idea of the island being sentinent. The island would be "Sacred Earth" meaning it it the origin of our Earth and it's the celestial counterpart of our earth.

Capcom said...

Hi Sickies!

I came across that video too Greg, but in the comments it says it's a fake. ??? Pretty good one, if you ask me, except for the plane that they say is from another movie. I don't know, didn't see that movie. It is odd that TPTB didn't reveal a new promo yet, if this is not the real thing.

Don't think that you are annoying us with your Qs, Anon (GG13?)! We are always happy to discuss the nagging oddball mysteries here in Sickville. :o)

Is there anyplace online that gives a summary of D.Darko? I have a feeling that this is one of those movies that I wouldn't mind being spoiled for, if it helps me understand/enjoy it more.

I've always seen the hiatus video "leaks" as a way for TPTB to prepare our brains for the crazazy things that they are going to throw at us in the following season. For those of us who are into SciFi and have open minds, it's just icing on the cake (or extra sprinkles, haha), but for the viewers who aren't, it probably helps set them up for the ride to come that they might not expect. Having said that, I can't imagine anyone who's casually into the Lost story even caring about the hiatus goodies, heheh. Like Merzmensch said at LostARGs, even this LU stuff might be to help us understand S6!

I'm not surprised at the Lost/KIA implant, as Jeep, Verizon, and Sprite did exceptionally well as vehicles for TLE. Jeep had us scrounging all over their website on the Compass model, for clues about Rachel and the Hanso execs, particularly all that organ-snatching stuff (they used Jeep Compasses to transport them, haha).

Check out the latest post on LostARGs for talk on the details about the heiroglyphics in the Mysteries vid, etc. link

Capcom said...

Cheez-wizz, sorry about the long post!

You guys are the first people that I talk to in the morning, so you get the brunt of my first Lost babblings for the day. :-o

neoloki said...


The plane crash in the "promo" was from the movie Knowing, so I am almost certain it is a fake. Well, done though.

neoloki said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
neoloki said...

Concerning reset or no reset:

It was somewhat acknowledged during comic-con that TPTB don't want the audience to feel cheated by erasing the last 5 seasons through a reset. So, a scenario where season 6 is ONLY a reset is very unlikely. But what is equally unlikely is a scenario where it is purely WHH and the bomb and the swan WAS the incident. Taking this into account what we can expect is a mingling of the two. Whether there is a mind f*ck in the opener to make us believe a reset happened and then they bring the story back to WHH or tangent or parallel universes are introduced we can expect the comic-con videos to be used in some thematic form.

So if there is a joke at all it will be on the purists, in other words, both WHH and ALT will get a poke in the side.

Capcom said...

That's how it kind of feels to me too Neo. :-)

neoloki said...

Greg,It makes the most sense with the limited information we have at this point.

What bothers me the most going into season 6 is people who want ALL the mysteries to be answered. I believe this would totally suck the life out of the show and would make re-watching Lost devoid of all the romance that makes Lost LOST. The major mysteries need to be addressed, at the least, but I don't want the meaning of Lost dictated to me. From what I have read so far it does not appear that damon or carlton are going to take that approach, but the comment sections on all Lost blogs are going to be on fire next year. Unfortunately, it is easy to think Lost is OUR story and not Damon and Carlton's. So, with this in mind it is important to let them tell it exactly the way they need to tell it and for us to put our expectations in our back pockets and wait for the end of the series to make a judgment on how the story was told. With 5 very solid seasons behind us and the lessons leaned from the ending of other beloved series with troublesome resolutions,(Sopranos, BSG) I have a hard time believing they are going to screw it up

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Yea, Greg, its from KNOWING. Funny thing, in the ads back in May or June that ran in mags, they make Cage look about ten years younger, almost like Wil Wheaton from TNG.

Capcom, I meant that this stuff with KIA was in a mag and not a TV spot, but maybe I wasn't aware of other mag clues. I'm pretty sure I read up on Donnie Darko via Wiki. And it IS a film that I will watch again, I think it was more a matter of watching it during LOST instead of the hiatus, as a change of pace.

Greg, the CC vids aren't red herrings, they just sneak in the wrong characters, that's why I think no one should be looking at both Kate AND Hurley. So if they did show that S1-4 had a different past that is corrected in S6, I don't think the viewers will be cheated, as Neoloki mentions, because all of S1-4 happened, more the flashbacks I mean, and it would be cool to see S6 ease us into that. That's why I gave an example of Sawyer mentioning Cassidy back home instead of missing Juliet, albeit not the best of examples. But to throw a line like that in, say, the third episode, with all the 815ers knowing this but this is the first we hear of it, would be wild. Using the skipping record analogy, the reboot would be going back to the previous song, not replaying the same one.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Neoloki, any author who knows how to write a great book will leave certain things to the reader at the end, and I do get annoyed a bit with anyone wanting to know everything. This goes back to how I think we'd have gotten more episodes if the fans weren't bitching about reruns in S2 and S3. Even three or four episodes would answer everything, so those same fans will bitch at the end of S6. Maybe complain is a better word, but still.

Your comment about lessons learned re: THE SOPRANOS and BSG are noted, though the people who thought the former was a cheat, well, again, as in book form, there are any number of people who would think out a different ending re: Tony after fade to black. My main concerns Re; the ending of S6 is if it seems too rushed.

Capcom said...

Don't forget that we've still got that "I've been waiting for that for 3(or 4?) years" quote from Sawyer when he kissed Kate, dangling in the air. He may have just meant that he hadn't kissed anyone in that long since he was in prison for a while, but who knows. It may all mean something else after a few eps. Maybe in another timeline they met in the prison yard at exercise time across the fence separating the men from the women. :o)

Right Wayne, I'm hoping that S6 isn't all rushed and full of speedy exposition to get everything 'splained out by the end.

neoloki said...

I should of made a note at the end of my comment that reads:

The ending of the sopranos was perfect. In a cliche driven genre, gangsters, there were very few options left for Chase that would have been interesting and/or original.

Capcom said...

P.S. Yes there were many print ads for the products in-game with clues in magazines, as well -- in EW and also People or Us, I think. Just remembered, Monster Jobs was a part of it too, and also had a print ad. It was all very strange to see that, as you say. :-)

Thirty-Fiver said...

Could someone explain the difference between a parallel and a tangent universe ?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thirty-Fiver, a tangent universe is created at a certain point, and can be curved, whereas the others are meant to run alongside each other, never touching. The tapestry weave and the loophole. A tangent universe could be created at the point, say, where JFK was or was not killed. Everything before 11/23/63 happened exactly the same, then we get the tangent universe in which JFK is alive. I think at this point the whiteout is the big question mark; was a tangent universe created in June of 1977? And if it was, is there a way to fix it? My suggestion above was that perhaps S1-S4 was the tangent universe (flashbacks after 1977, of course), and after the whiteout we see the original timeline. So its in reverse, instead of thinking we will see changes, we will see corrections.

Neoloki, I knew what you were getting at by comparing the Sopranos with BG. I was never a follower of either show, but I've heard BG fans were disappointed by the end. Even w/o seeing much of THE SOPRANOS, to me, the sudden black as opposed to fade to black was the BEST thing David Chase could do. So I hope the Cuse and Lindelof are creative in what we have left at the end, rather than give us a concrete-type ending.

Re: answers. Some are easy for me to accept. No more Libby? Just give me her last name, I'm happy with what I can figure out from there.

Capcom, I hope no one spoiled Donnie Darko for you, but I do recall reading about it here in the comments a year or so ago, otherwise I wouldn't have Wiki'd it then rented it. But I think even knowing what was mentioned here today, there is way more weird stuff in the film than simply the jet engine. You'll enjoy it.

@gg13, I was thinking how you are rewatching S1 & 2, you did mention "Fire & Water" awhile back, the baptism episode. Is there a certain point where S2 starts dragging for you? I'm curious to how everyone stands on S2. Myself, I can't say exactly, maybe "Fire & Water," but with "Collision," when Jack runs into Ana-Lucia, the show pretty much stayed on course from that point to the present.

Greg Tramel said...

ok, they REALLY GOT me with the fake video

Capcom, remind me when Sawyer said to Kate "I've been waiting for that for"

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, don't worry re: the fake video. Remember I mentioned the LOST footage that was being knocked around in emails last month, claiming to be still shots from on board the Air France crash? I thought it was just some guy going viral, but the actual footage plus text was taken verbatim from a Bolivian news channel. Sure, someone "leaked" the photos to the news outlet, but a lot of people were fooled. I rec'd the email three times, and one guy--a former co-worker--later sent me a note: that was when I heard about the Bolivian news. I'm sure the YouTuber was banking on the fact that not a lot of people went to see KNOWING in the theaters. So rock on, brutha.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I'd guess that Sawyer told Kate this while they were in the cages in S3. In S2, Sawyer pulls the long con on Cassidy, but its not until S3 that we realize that he was in prison afterwards. I'd lay odds their dialogue happened during the Sawyer-centric episode about how he conned the other prisoner, found out about Clementine, etc.

Capcom said...

I don't know where Sawyer said that, I just keep hearing (reading) people talking about it and what it might mean! Sorry! :-o

I think in the memorial video at CC, they listed Libby's name as Smith. I can't remember if we knew that before.

I noticed the different airline name in that Lost vid when I first saw it, but I thought that it was just a new, third, airline. Then I read in the comments that it was fake. Damm well made though, sheesh.

Bigmouth said...

Mang: Your science reference reminds me of one more important point they made at Comic-Con -- no more DHARMA. That kind of kills the possibility of a visit by Desmond to Ann Arbor, MI, though I suppose the Hanso Foundation is still fair game. I'm hoping for an Other tie to Alvar and/or Magnus, possibly via Richard and the Black Rock.

Wayne: I like the idea of a sentient Island enforcing some sort of "ideal" timeline. (Perhaps via ghosts like Charlie?) And we're on the same wavelength re the difference between tangent and parallel timelines. But I really think you have it backwards when you suggest that the events we've already seen are the ones that need to be corrected. Remember, the writers have said they won't negate anything that happened in the flash forwards. So I'm hoping it's the tangent timeline we see in S6 that will be erased. This also fits better with Ms. Hawking's claims that events have to happen as we've seen them or we're all dead.

Neoloki: Calling the videos joke isn't rationalization. As the Heroes schtick confirms, they're making fun of someone. It's just unclear whether that someone is themselves or the audience. If it's the latter, as I suspect, then I think you're right that the joke will really be on "purists" who insist it's either total reset or strict WHH. That's what I was trying to convey with my "third way" point.

I'm open to the possibility of the two timelines merging. Some time back, I speculated that resolution of the show might involve merging two alternate realities into one like in the DC Comics classic Crisis on Infinite Earths. But I'd still prefer to see the tangent timeline destroyed completely, possibly by our Losties themselves. I think this would be another great way to make the point that Jacob's intervention in their lives is necessary to "save us all."

Thirty-Fiver: I think Wayne's explanation of a tangent universe is right on target. A good example of a parallel (as opposed to tangent) universe is the show Fringe. The changing picture frames strike me more as an example of the instability of the timeline, rather than any merging of its tangent counterpart. I also think the frames are a clue to the importance of ghosts, which is why I mentioned the possibility that dead characters may serve as guardian angels for our Losties. That might also explain the whispers -- they're the auditory manifestation of the same ghosts Hurley sees.

Bigmouth said...

Greg Tramel: Love the article but I gotta strongly disagree with you and ZachsMind. Like the author, I think the clear message of Comic-Con is that strict WHH is no longer tenable. Even if we never see any alternate reality depicted on the show, the videos clearly suggest that our Losties COULD have changed the future by opting out of the Incident, much like Desmond COULD have changed the future by proposing to Penny.

I also don't think it makes sense to have the bomb simply fizzle as ZachsMind suggests. Why have our Losties spend all that time in DHARMA times if it had no effect on the future? If there is a time flash, it will be because the bomb detonated. At a minimum, even if strict WHH applies, Miles will be proven correct that our Losties were always the cause of the Incident.

Capcom: Like Wayne said, the Donnie Darko wiki does a pretty good job of explaining things. It's actually a very complex and confusing film, so it might not hurt to read at least the plot summary before watching. Afterward, you can read the director's explanation and the imdb FAQ. There are also any number of websites that provide even more in depth explanations if you're interested. The more I think about it, the film is must viewing before Season 6.

gg13: I think your question about whether Oceanic 815 was "supposed" to crash is exactly the right one. The way I see it, the videos are telling us the answer is "no" -- the crash would NOT have occurred if fate had been allowed to run its course without interference from Jacob. The point of the tangent timeline will be to show us what was "supposed" to happen in this sense.

The problem with my reasoning is that it suggests the world is "supposed" to end by 2004, which it obviously didn't if Oceanic is still flying in 2009. That's why I'm thinking the tangent timeline will somehow culminate in an apocalyptic event that erases the alternate history of what was "supposed" to happen. The message will be that none of what we've seen was "supposed" to happen, but all of it must or "God help us all."

Anonymous: Yes, destruction of the tangent universe in Donnie Darko creates an ontological paradox of sorts. It's not quite the same as Richard's compass, but similar in that the engine no longer has any discernible origin. What strikes me as important is the way Donnie accepts his fate, erasing the tangent universe. That's a great model for how LOST might resolve its own tangent timeline. Erase the alternate reality, not anything we've seen in Seasons 1-5.

Greg Tramel said...

COULD is should would

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, what memorial video are you talking about? Is there a specific site that has all the Comic-Con info.

Bigmouth, I did not know you were into COIE, a comic that would have out PK Dick over the edge if he had lived. How do you feel about the DC multiverse being reconstituted, particularly in light of the fact they they have acquired the right to Doc Savage but need not have him anywhere but Earth-20, or wherever, no team-iups with Batman or Superman. You want to talk DC multiverse, we can set up a meet.

I tried not to say things backwards re: the tangent universe, I was more saying that we might see minor tweaks in the histories of certain characters, and the way Donnie Darko ends is what I mean, maybe there's some dream-like knowledge Jack or Kate have that they DIDN'T have in S1-5.

Still haven't seen MOON yet, but now I have a hankering to just flat-out buy DD on Amazon...

dj said...

Isn't it exciting? We're either right on target, or so far off it'll make our heads spin.

Personally, I think the Whispers are the ultimate give-away that Season 6's "theme" will be the parallel universe. Or, if you want to go all Donnie Darko, "tangent" universe (though I don't think anything's necessarily going to collapse... they both have a place in the world).

I mean -- if you've ever read some of the interpretations of the Whispers on Lostpedia and whatnot... granted, they're approximations of really garbled speech, and the writers probably didn't know EXACTLY what they were going to have the characters say... you get stuff like "it's Sawyer, should we say something to him?" And thus, I can imagine a scene... probably his boar-rivalry scene... where our Paralosties see him trompin' around in the jungle and start talking about it, ultimately deciding to GTFO and let him go about his business.

I don't know if it's quite that predictable, and frankly I'm hoping they teach us all a thing or two about trying to outsmart this storyline, but we'll see!

KoreAmBear said...

@DJ the whole whispers thing has fascinated me. I recall another one where it seemed like it was dead Boone who wanted to talk to living (at the time) Shannon and also the whispers were noticing how they (Shannon and Sayid) like each other. I mean that is just trippy stuff.

As for the tangential and parallel universe theories - I am so out of LOST shape right now that this stuff is far over my head. I need to get my game on. However, probably not before college football season ends.

Btw, is there a Mr. Cluck's location in Hawaii? I really want to try the free range chicken for $4.42. Awesome price.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I've even read transcripts where Nikki and Pauolo's names are mentioned, might very well be the episode where Hurley sees the cabin. That's where the whispers always intrigued me, reading the transcripts, there's no way the Others knew so many of the survivors' names, plus, as KoreAmBear mentioned, they called Sawyer by THAT name, whereas Jacob's list read James Ford.

At the point we find out even 10% more about the whispers, half of us will slap our heads, the others will go 'huh?'. Pick anything on the show, I think the Whispers are the oldest mystery to go pretty much unexplained.

Capcom said...

Hi Sickies! I only have a minute before I have to take off, but I had to check in with y'all first of course. :-)

Great thoughts! Wayne, Memphish at TLC said that Swayer says that about the kiss in "White Rabbit". Winkwink! More food for your "thoughts".

The memorial vid was played at CC. I believe that "He Who Shall Not Be Named" has them all on his website all in one place, and I think that I also saw them at Jopinionated's site in that way too. ODI and DarkUFO for sure must have them also. I gotta run at the moment, but if no one has posted the links to them by the time I get back, I'll post them for you. They are all probably on Youtube by now also.

Later Sickies! :-D

Capcom said...

P.S. I don't think that you would be disappointed at all if you bought the Moon DVD sight-unseen, Wayne. Don't you agree Big?

lostmio said...

Greg: asked "what is this:"

beer is right, that is Schrodinger's cat, and imo one of the biggest herrings to date.
We've been seeing Lockes in boxes throughout Lost. Now Ilyana's group has a dead Locke in a box. Inside the foot (altho not a box, I know) is what looks like a live Locke.

It's all very schrodinger-ish to me. I'm not so sure that Locke-in-the-foot is entirely not-Locke. He (it, whatever)has Locke's memories and a whole lotta Locke's attitude.
Charlie to Hurley "I'm dead, but I'm here". Schrodinger again.

Now at comic-con, we get hints of an alternate universe. Quantum theory more-or-less speaks of schrodinger outcomes. Every decision or action ("free will") sprouts a new alternate universe.

Ben: "No, I want you to WANT to save my life".

As has been said, we've been bombarded with flashbacks, flashforwards, and time travel.
I think S6 will be the parallel universe season. Aka a zombie season, if all those folks are dead and not dead at the same time.
Alpert: "I watched them die."

I've long thought the island is a zero point field, as described in McTaggart's book, "The Field, the Quest for the Secret Force of the Universe", which is required reading for Lost University's Physics 101 class, taught by Faraday.
In McTaggart's zero point field

paranormal and psuedoscientific boundaries would be weak, and connecting links between persons and events would be strong. All very Lost-ish.

The book is a fun read, too. It opens with accounts of a fast-food chicken magnate, a couple of snowmen, and gifts of watches.

Back to the parallel universe idea - in a zero point field, the boundary between universes would somewhat porous. I think we've seen that already and will see more of it.

The big question imo is ~at what point(s)did the writers have the characters divert into parallel universes~ ? When the O6 left? When the 316's returned? When the bomb detonated? Or some combination of the above?
Of course, there have been earlier parallel universe splits, as evidenced by the many "mistakes" we've seen since S1. I don't look for the writers to cover all those, they were basically foreshadowing. There are infinite universes in the quantum many worlds theory, but the Lost writers can only keep with so many.

BM, thanks for keeping your blog going. I'll be checking in here more frequently from here on out, there are some great discussions going.

fwiw, the parallel universe idea can play into the mirror matter / dark matter theories too, but that might something implied and never shown on screen.

lostmio said...

This illustration

comes close imo to showing the Locke and not-Locke dynamic.

I think Locke, like the cat, might be simultaneously dead and alive.
He can be both within the same physical space because he's on the island.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I might be generalizing too much, but in regards to the cat in the S.'s box, couldn't the Island be a box. "Imagine a box, John..."

The argument there would be Locke is alive off-Island in December 2007 and dead/copied by MIB on-Island in December 2007. Isn't that really the core of S.'s Cat, that no one knows the answer unless you look in the box?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oops, missed a part. I MEANT that bu the Ajira flight flashing back a month or so would, in effect, change the picture on the, um, box.

Sure, MIB has his dead Locke, but there might be a way to get live Locke to the Island, negating the loopphole. If the 77ers stop in 2004 to put Charlie's guitar in the tree, they could also go to 2008 and keep Ben from killing Locke (and the Island will not let Locke kill himself). Then what? You got me.

3D said...

Blogger neoloki said...

I read that on Doc Arzt's blog. Great web-site by the way. In combination with EyeMSick much better conversations than on Darks site.

DarkUFO itself is great for info, but the commenters there are mostly idiots. Every thread ends up being arguments about which man in the show is sexier and which stupid shipper relationship is better.

Capcom said...

LOL, 3D! Yes, I go to Dark for the news and recap posts (and some spoilers!), and mostly skip the comments. Arguing is boring. :-p

Yes Wayne! Live Locke and dead Locke at the "same" time across the time differences! I've been fixating on that since the end of S4.

Very intersting, Lostmio.

Greg Tramel said...

but Juliet is the hottest

Greg Tramel said...

and GO SKATE!!

Capcom said...

Jate is Fate, Greg! X-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

That's part of the reason I've stopped by very few blogs, myself. Its not the posts themselves, its the comments. I've found a thread or two I find interesting and within the same day as the original post, the comments are somewhat meaningless to me. Luckily, there's Greg and Capcom and a few of you all everybody to help with links to other blogs and comments that are important to the topic at hand over here.

Granted, we can get into goofiness ourselves, but those who don't want to get in on the fun just steer it back like Magnus Hanso would.

Is DocArzt the Tail Section guy? I actually viewed the TS, then Dark way back when, after stumbling across such a thing as screen caps (yeah, I'm slow), but by the end of S2 I found myself here.

Capcom said...

Right Wayne. I'd say that here we get into "spirited debate", to quote Mittewerk, but thankfully never arguing. That's why it's great here.

Hey Greg, I just heard on the radio that Texas librarians are doing some pretty racy fundrasing today! :-D

Yes, I believe that he was the founder of the Tailsection before BuddyTV bought it and he went "spinning off" on his own.

Capcom said...

FYI Wayne on Dr.A:

"In January 2009, TheTailSection, under the management of BuddyTV, removed the credit for all the hundreds of articles Doc Arzt had written for the site, replacing his bylines with other people's names, and offering no explanation for such unethical actions, which would amount to plagiarism. Doc, upon finding out about the deletion of his bylines, blogged about it here: As a result, many follow-up commenters indicated their intention to stop visiting TheTailSection. On Feb. 1, 2009, Doc Arzt publicly announced his intention to pursue legal matters regarding TheTailSection's plagiarism of his work, at the following blog entry:"

Interesting. :-\

KoreAmBear said...

OK, I know this has been discussed before, but I watched a rerun on Sci Fi channel the one where Jack first goes to see Hurley in Santa Rosa. Hurley says "you're not supposed to raise him, Jack" and mentioning that it was Charlie that told him so. Jack of course gets offended and says something like "you're talking about Aaron?" just when Jack is bonding with Aaron.

But now that we know what happened with Jacob, was Charlie actually MIB talking to Hurley -- telling Jack not to "raise" Jacob? Or maybe even Ben?

Sorry, I get these random thoughts when watching repeats.

@BM re: the tangential theories, how do Aaron and JiYeon figure into them? I really want to see Aaron and JiYeon as protagonists in Season 6.

neoloki said...

Haven't been posting lately because it is a mind numbing 103 degrees in Seattle. Now for some of you I expect that is nothing but I did not move here because I like heat, so this sucks.

Anyway, yeah Doc Arzt use to run The Tailsection and now has another, self-titled blog, that works similar to Darks site but smaller. When I get tired of the bulls**t at dark I spend most of my time with Arzt. Much more useful dialouge. HEMA is good when the season is going and you want to read analysis; so is Luhks now that J.Wood is sick and not writing. Currently over at Tubular (, she is writing some interesting articles while doing a series re-watch.

Capcom said...

Interesting thoughts Koreambear!

I heard that about the temp today Neo, wow. I had some friends who moved from NY to Oregon, and they always bragged about how the weather in the PNW is so mild, guess they're not laffin now for a while. Try to stay cool!

Greg Tramel said...

if anybody saw Warehouse 13 last night, that's kinda sorta what i'm trying to get at with Lost, more like teleportation (remember Kate said something about watching the characters disappear off the plane) rather than time travel between multiple timelines

in my view her brother was not in another parallel universe but rather still in the same universe but at a different electromagnetic vibration

so in a sense island ghosts would also be vibrating in and out of view but remaining in the same island universe and in the same timeline rather than a tangential timeline

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom we've got some HOT librarians down her

actually i must be out of the loop (no pun intended) because i'm not aware of what your talking about, were they doing a skinny dipping calendar at Hippy Hollow or something?

Greg Tramel said...

i mean believe me i was CONVINCED alternate timelines/universes were in play since season 2 but we've seen that SO much lately its getting a little stale so i'm hoping for something we haven't seen yet, or at least not as much as we have seen the overdone multiple (no matter if it is parrelel or tangential)universes

Greg Tramel said...

i'm think a big part of WHH is the notion of could is irrelevant because WHH, what's done is done

could doesn't even belong on the table since it's WHH instead of What Could Have Happened

Anonymous said...

wyane allen: no i havent reached season 2 yeat still in one..have just finished the episode where lockes tells charlie bout the butterfly...veryvery boring stuff..indeed.....i saw the scene you were telling me about where john and jack talk in the caves setting up the roles of leqadership and so on...but i was laso playing football manager at the time and didnt pay close attention...yes there is something there that sets up the jacob balck side white side mythology all ill pay a closer look at it.

bigmouth: yea h exactly im struggling to figure out whther fate intervend to make them crash therefore they werre supposed to crash there and set the motions for their return...or whther destiny had no plas for them and jacob decided to play backgammon with the other and dragged them all in.

however i must say i agree with wayne allen the forst 2 seasons especially the second do reach a stale point and the show starts "running"season 3 and after...

it is mybelief that seeing that tehy were making money producers told them make it 3 seasons....saw more money...ok make it 4 seasons...ok make it 5 make it 6...until they reach the point where they wont make the money they want to make...which gives a "fake", "plastic" like its "preset"...we have our stories we gibve a little a time to addict people make money in th process and keep making money..when we stop making money we end it whichever way wwe want cause basically we havent shown any constants only variables...... ti si ashow which was targetted for masses...housewives students pseudo intellectuals alll in a big salad...religious science historical elemaents from all cultures and soem influences from moveis books songs off we go to create history in tv.

it looks liek something like "preset" like that....not gives me the impression the show stopped being apocalyptic and entered mainstream principles

this worries me to be honest. dont get me wrong...from aproduction and business persepctive their are geniuses......but not the "sceptics" they would have like to make us believe.


Greg Tramel said...

ah! i didn't know Luhks and Therese (tubular) was the same entity but that makes sense since i've always enjoyed both, i've really missed J Wood this season and wish him a recovery

neoloki said...


Sorry if I was confusing. Luhks and Tubular are not the same person.


That is not really how it has gone as far as the development of the seasons. By the beginning of season 3 they realized the story was meandering and they couldn't(didn't want to) continue dancing in place so went to abc execs and negotiated an ending. Google the story. It is pretty much unheard of for a network show to negotiate an ending.

neoloki said...

Also, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about a "reset". It won't be that simple.

Greg Tramel said...

VERY interesting idea

visions or flashes of these alternate histories

Greg Tramel said...

how about this tidbit

Richard's Role in Burke's (Juliet's Husband) Death

Capcom said...

LOL Greg, I think that the radio spot said that the librarians were somewhere out in public scantily dressed and showing off their tattoos, to get people going to the library to read (or to get a chance for some more flashes of their tattoos!). For some reason the tattoos seemed relevant to the piece, even though tattoos in odd/risque places are so common these days. :o)

I saw W-13 this week too. I really like your eletrmoagnetic dispacement idea, the source and vehicle are there already in the story, for sure. It definitely could attribute to the whispers of invisible people situation. And maybe when you die on the island, you just go to that other place because of the electromagnetism, so that you reappear here and there. Uh-oh, electromagnetic purgatory! :-o "EMP", haha.

Nice links.

Capcom said...

P.S. It also seemed as if her brother didn't age at all while he was in the other dimension, as well as having the same clothes on. Kind of reminds me of a certain person named Richard, heheh.

Greg Tramel said...

i got the calendar part right

i wasn't asked to be in the "Men of Texas Libraries" calendar :(

Texas librarians show wild side in calendar

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@gg13 and neoloki, I still wouldn't be surprised if ABC had a part in telling the producers to milk the show. I never saw S1 until the summer reruns--remember how that first year it was on at 7 CST?--and I do recall it was a total surprise hit. They had all the demographics, for those wanting relationships, mysteries, etc. I might be cynical, but I think ABC saw how the mysteries interested many of the viewers and allowed the producers to be selective in releasing info, which really worked against them. The producers likely negotiated an ending to the show based on how the ratings were slipping. A ballsy move, and whether ABC was truly involved or not, it still comes back to S2 dragging out and S3 needed that jump start. The way the show has played out, wanting it to go six seasons with a certain amount of episodes pere season (as opposed to 5 or 7 seasons) allowed for the symmetry we're seeing. To be honest, I'd rather have this thing finish in S6 *gasp* rather than have it go on like the X-Files.

S2 started and S5 ended at the Hatch, we saw the stenciled lid ready to go and I do think that's where Juliet ended up, another box, another rabbit hole. This is the one thing (the symmetry) that makes me think we will see dead characters from S1 in S6. Just how and in what sequence the episodes will run, you got me. I forget when/where I read it, likely after one of te San Diego Comic-Cons, JJ Abrams jokingly mentioned the show would end up as Zombie Island.

Thx for the links, Greg.

Greg Tramel said...

i think i've sent out this before but i got a good chuckle with the most recent one

Benry Knows Best

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, here's the memorial video Capcom mentioned

LOST, But Not Forgotten

Thirty-Fiver said...

Thanks for clarifying the differences between a parallel and a tangent universe. That makes a lot of sense. And thanks Big, the first thing I thought about when I read Wayne's post was which category Fringe would fall under. I wonder if JJ Abrams and Damon Lindelof discussed tangent universes back when they created the show. I would think he had to be careful when he created Fringe as to not make the multiple universe storytelling device too similar to LOST's.

Btw, I completely agree with you sentiments with S2. I've always been torn with choosing my favorite seasons between S1 & S2. The way they introduced Dharma and the mystery surrounding their group, the continuation of the Others' story, and the Tailes just made that season a classic. Not to mention it's premiere and finale showcased Desmond.

Greg Tramel said...


DriveShaft(DS)=Dal Segno

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

No problem, Thirty-Fiver. I agree re: Desmond, et. al., but it was towards the middle of S2 that it seemed we were getting more mysteries than answers.

A great story involving JFK, time travel, and a tangent universe (why I chose that event yesterday) is a story called "Ask Not," by Marc Laidlaw circa 1986. A guy is the second gunman, kills JFK, and is happy as hell. In his universe, Oswald missed and killed Jackie, and by 1986 the world has seen WWIII. After much discussion, it is realized the best possible way to change the past was to have JFK die, Jackie reacts, the bullet never kills her. The kicker is the guy who goes back in time is JFK, because he best recalls that moment and when he needs to shoot. So JFK kills himself, laughs it off knowing his future is erased, and a bunch of guys hate that he's laughing and the beat him to death behind a bar in Dallas. That, in effect, tells us the history we know now is that of a tangent universe. It took me awhile to get and appreciate the clue in the title of the story...

Thx for the link, Greg.

Thirty-Fiver said...

Are you sure "Ask Not" is the title? I did a quick google search and nothing came up. I got a short bibliography of Marc's works on Wikipedia, but "Ask Not" wasn't listed.

Capcom said...

That sounds like a really interesting story Wayne. Especially that ever since I was a kid, it seemed like a miracle that Jackie didn't get hit as well. My dad never believed the Warren Commission report, I think that he would have liked that story.

I'm still not sure I get the difference between parallel and tangient as per their existance, not their theoretical placement, I get that. But it's not real anyway....I guess.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thirty-Fiver and Capcom, it was "Ask Not" as in what your country can do for you. Maybe I'm wrong on Marc Laidlaw, but I'd swear it was him. I know him, but through different circles as he is sci-fi. The magazine it appeared in was NIGHT CRY, a quarterly put out by TWILIGHT ZONE, which only ran two years or so. I'm stretching my brain, but Laidlaw seems to be the guy. There's a link to LOCUS magazine, listing writing as stories (I'm on there, with stories from crazy small press mags from the 80s), check that out. Type in my name in Google, its like the third or fourth link. I'll try tomorrow, but it is a GREAT story, plus Laidlaw is a GREAT writer, even if I'm wrong re: the tale.

Capcom, in essence, as tangent universe is a squiggle, not a straight line. If that helps. That's why part of me thinks we saw the tangent universe S1 through S5. Or not. I have no %^%$&$&&^$%&$@@@@@@ clue. I give.

Now I'm going to dream about clowns. I just know it.

Capcom said...

Yes, I understand what a tangent is physically, but I'm just trying to find out how it "acts" timewise, so to speak. For instance on Fringe it's a parallel world that Bell and Olivia are in, as they presented it, i.e., running along the same time sequence (e.g. it looks like it's the same year), but different things happen in each one. But I don't get how time differs on the tangent course. Is it the same year but different events as in the parallel world, or does the time change, or slow down, or what, as it squirrels off of the "main" timeline to go off on it's own? On its own *tangent*, haha. But I guess maybe I just answered my own question, that is that the tangent spins off not following at all the timeline that it came from....maybe???

I guess that it's time to go get the director's cut of Donnie Darko now. The 80s soundtrack looks awesome too. Going to Amazon now. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

both parallel and tangent are in the same "time"

timeline1: A-Z
timeline2: 1-100

timeline1: A-M-1-50-N-Z
timeline2: 1-50

maybe, LOL

Capcom said...

Hmm. So a time tangent is where things "repeat or happen" out of order or bouncing around? Like with the LB's time skips? Boing, boing, boing all over the place? Sorry for being dense. The tangent thing is new to my addled brain.


Bigmouth said...

Wayne: I really, really dig your suggestion that the history we've seen in Seasons 1-5 is the tangent timeline! That fits well with my belief that the flashes we'll see in S6 are of what's "supposed" to happen. But I'm still skeptical that resolution of the timeline split will involve "correcting" the events of S1-5 in favor of what's "supposed" to happen. I think our Losties will have a choice as to which timeline survives -- and they will choose S1-5.

As for Crisis on Infinite Earths, I was more a Marvel guy growing up. I vaguely remember COIE when it first appeared, and revisited it after the first purple sky event on LOST. Ultimately, I think they made the right choice to reconstitute the multiverse. Hypertime was kind of a copout, imo, letting them explain away too many continuity errors. I think a similar complaint drives a lot of skepticism of time loops on LOST.

dj: Decoding the whispers is tricky. There's an excellent thread devoted to the project at the fuselage. i myself wondered back in S2 if they're a chorus of the dead. Beyond the paranormal possibility, I like suggestions that the whispers are related to some alternate reality. Another possibility we've discussed is that they're the echo of past iterations of the time loop involving our Losties. Lately, I've been wondering if this is the second iteration of two loops. The first was entirely consistent -- strict WHH -- but the second gives our Losties the chance to choose to break the loop ala Donnie Darko.

KoreaAmBear: Is it just me, or does Mr. Cluck's remind you of the ubiquitous LA chicken chain Koo Koo Roo? At one point, I even thought Koo Koo Roo was originally from Australia, though I later learned it has no connection to the island continent. Also, I meant to mention in my last post that Darlton's reference to the DHARMA food drops is partly why I still hold out hope we'll see either Ann Arbor, MI or Copenhagen, DE in Season 6.

Capcom: Moon is brilliant, but buying a movie sight unseen? I say rent it, and if anyone has a problem doing so, I'll get it for you when it's available on Netflix.

Bigmouth said...

lostmio: Hello, my friend! Sickies, let me introduce you to lostmio, whom I've mentioned a few times in my posts. I'm so glad you brought up Schroedinger's Cat again, because that's a perfect metaphor for how I'm hoping the tangent timeline will play out. I think the bomb will cause the timeline to fork at the point of the Incident, creating a second timeline in which the Incident, crash of Oceanic 815, and activation of the Fail-Safe never occurred. These two timelines will be superimposed like Schroedinger's Cat, giving our Losties a choice as to which timeline survives. I believe they will ultimately choose the timeline we've seen in S1-5, erasing the alternative.

neoloki: You gotta come down to Santa Monica, my friend. It's been 75 degrees most of July. BTW, for anyone who's interested in reading Therese's rewatch stuff, there's a link to her Tubular posts over on the right side of my front page.

Greg: I saw the episode and know what you're talking about. I got the impression the scientist was caught in the space between spaces, almost like another dimension. I guess I could see our Losties being trapped in this way like Neo in the Train Station between the Matrix and the Source at the beginning of Matrix: Revolutions. But I think this is different from what you're suggesting, so say a bit more, if you would. What do you envision happening in scenes where our Losties fade in and out of existence? Where do they go when they're not a part of our timeine?

gg13: You may be right, but a tangent timeline would be a great way to depict the apocalyptic alternative. So don't lose all hope!

Thirty-Fiver: Season 4 was my favorite by far. Even in the first season, which is probably my second favorite, there were plenty of filler episodes. Not so in S4 -- it was all Wrath of Khan from start to finish.

Capcom said...

Oops, sorry, I buy movies all the time without seeing them first.

lostmio said...

Hey Big, and thanks for the nod.
I’ve been way frustrated this summer by most of the theorizing (aka shipping) on the mainstream boards. So I thought ‘where can I go to keep it real?, because we know Lost is all about real, right?
First place that popped into my mind was eyemsick, and sure nuff, your sickies are on the ball, way ahead of me. Not to mention that I can always count on you to stretch my feeble mind to its feeble breaking point.

Speaking of sickies, don’t tell Greg that I’m a texas liberrian, too. I missed out on this year’s women’s calendar but just because I don’t have a tattoo. Otherwise, Greg, they’d have begged me to pose, I’m sure...

Right now, I’m convinced Schrödinger’s where it’s at. I just haven’t figured out exactly where Schrödinger is right now. Like you, I think The Incident (ie, the detonation) is a fork. Unlike you (if I read you right) I think the 1977’s are both dead (a la Richard’s memory) and alive. The alive part is what matters, and like you, I think it’ll all come down to free choice. It always has.
At the moment , I’m hung up on Locke as Schrödinger’s cat, ie the Copenhagen version – meaning he’s both dead and alive at the same time. I don’t for a minute think the writers have totally killed off Locke. All those Locke boxes have to point to something, and Locke is arguably the most popular character ever (tho not mine, I’ll concede to the masses).
One thought that keeps me awake at night is – maybe Smokie is more-or-less the substance stuff that triggers the cat’s (Locke’s, Charlie’s, the 1977’s) alive/dead duality.

Any way, lots of good thoughts here and I’ll keep on lurking.

Greg Tramel said...

I think the island provides the path to enlightenment wherein dualities are proved to be constructs, the Others believe they are following the long path and don’t really like the notion of using technology as a shortcut to enlightenment albeit technology may provide a short path

the electromagnetism on the island enables beings to move between what some would label multiple dimensions and/or multiple universes and/or multiple timelines yet these are really duality constructs, like Wayne is saying (if I’m understanding him correctly) all time is happening on the island at once, i would add that all space is happening at once as well so there is not any space between the dimensions because there are not really multiple dimensions but rather all part the same, what you “see” and “where” and “when” you is a result of vibrations and frequencies

ho lostmio, I’m on the refdesk right now, dead except for the myspace junkies ( hey I should talk)

Greg Tramel said...

and yes, Schrödinger’s cat may be a good model for what i'm getting it (or at least trying to, LOL), some (Jacob, The Others, Statue Shadow cult) believe in taking the long path to look in the box while some (Ben, Widmore, Paik) want to take the short path to look into the box using technology

Greg Tramel said...

i think the ultimate meaning of as above so below is that duality is a false doctrine therefore notions of death vs. life, dark vs. light, good vs. evil, other dimensions, this universe vs. parallel universe, heaven vs. hell, free will vs. fate, faith vs science, left brain vs. right brain, right had path vs. left hand path, left eye of Horus vs. right eye of Horus are all trickster traps

Greg Tramel said...

since we have the whispers i guess i need to include what one hears is based on wavelengths and i'll even extend it into the matters of the heat by adding what one feels is a matter of vibrational electromagnetic & biochemical frequencies

Greg Tramel said...

sorry, should have been HEART not heat, it is fn hot here though

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, the easiest thing to say is, yeah, you described it by "going off on a tangent." I brought up the JFK story because it had a type of closed tangent, as DD does. JFK=jet engine.

I've mentioned to Capcom and Greg that, as a writer, its easy to spend free moments on things like LOST (amongst other things), and now that we are this close to the end, I often think on if I'll actually get the eureka moment as I'm walking from the bus stop. Its like trying to one-up my own brain for when I'm writing my next thing.

Big, here is the MAIN reason why I think the tangent universe is what we saw in S1-S5. Richard saying he saw them die. We've seen the audience conned through Richard's seeming knowledge before, only to see that ALL of his knowledge came from MIB Locke, which was then passed to still alive Locke so that he could then tell 1954 Richard. Richard will have seen both versions of 1977. (Then again the white out could make him think the 77ers vaporized, but still).

The Copenhagen interpretation, lostmio, made me think that mentioning the city was a very early (and vague) clue. Capcom, was that where Mittlework was from?

Another key is that odd bit where Ajira only flipped back a month or so in time. Yes, it had to be that way for the loophole to work, but having the Schrodinger's cat idea of a living Locke/dead Locke may unravel that loophole, because, until the 77ers get to 07, that loophole hasn't been cinched shut yet. That's why MIB Locke is spooked.

I think we have a lot of this in our heads now already, but somehow Richard will be a part of both universes, though if the tangent universe becomes a closed loop (as with the jet engine falling and D Darko dying as planned), I guess Richard would technically be a part of the same universe.

The coming war might be as simple as this: a fight between those who want to keep the tangent universe where 815 crashed and the real universe (or vice versa) where it did not crash, Kate killed the wrong guy, and Hurley is happy, a lot of dead people are still alive. Maybe Hurley is happy because he is with Libby. Widmore might think the war is something else, but he's wrong. The Island isn't through with Desmond because he needs the tangent universe to eventually marry Peggy.

I'm just trying to think outside of the box.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I DO think that what happpened in 1977 SHOULDN'T have happened, and that Widmore, et al., never know about the tangent universe the way those on-Island will/do. Also, I think Paik is only involved (aside from Sun's takeover of the company) because its most likely he was the guy who provided the heavy equipment for construction on the Island.

lostmeo, I forgot to say, cool idea that the smoke monster is an abstract for the gas that goes into the box which holds that cat.
Which then makes me think, there are little things we will never know about the tangent universe, but in the real universe Jughead was never dropped, it was a back-up for a bomb that did explode. I was initially think that in the tangent universe we'd also think that various events PRIOR to 1977 were now different. Likely not, but a thought.

Bigmouth said...

So you guys are suggesting they're dead in the S1-5 timeline but alive in the alternate/tangent timeline? That's brilliant!

Greg Tramel said...

but Wayne, I think it is a slippery slope when you trying to predict what should/shouldn’t have happened, Ben has always thought along the lines of what should have happened and look where it got him

Capcom said...

Now there ya go encouraging those Prugatory peeps again, Big. :o)

I also depend on our fellow Sickies to bend my brain like taffy as well, Lostmio! Heheh, I was fixating on the Copenhagen version too.

JFK=the jet engine, I'll keep that in mind! Thanks Wayne! I think that I see what you mean.

What about brane cosmology, Greg?

Right Wayne, if I were Richard, I would be feeling really duped about now!

Mittlewerk was from Austria, but his main office was in Copenhagen, and: "According to the Hanso Phone Line, the address of The Hanso Foundation World Headquarters is...Copenhagen..."(Lostpedia) So maybe your idea is on track!?

Greg Tramel said...

yes, since Widemore and Paik (even if it is just providing the heavy machinery)are taking short cuts using technology for harnessing the island they may be fooled out of fully discovering the depth of reality on the island

that being said i also think Jacob and his followers are also naive in believing technology can't be used to become enlightened about island ways

Greg Tramel said...

capcom i'll have to do some reading about the brane cosmology, don't really know anything about it

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I think that what we've been allowed to see is selective, if we do take the tangent universe moving backwards, that explains Ben getting shot fatally in one episode and the bullet hole moving in the next so that he lived.

Yea, Big, this is why I'm thinking S1-S5 is the "alternate" version, and that we have plenty of ammunition for who wants to play free will and who wants determinism in S6. Desmond wants Penny. One line I've always seen overlooked by everyone is from Locke's sweat lodge dream, when Des is seen with the three stewardesses and Boone tells Locke "Forget about him, he's only looking out for himself." This might have been foreshadowing to him not getting on Ajira and blowing off Eloise, but he might cast a deciding vote in S6. Hurley wants to be un-cursed. Jack wants Kate(urg). Sawyer wants Juliet. Sun wants Jin. I guess the question is, how will they know there are two different timelines? My guess is, somehow Richard knows or it goes back to Eloise explaining things to Desmond way back when, and every time Des saved Charlie he created another tangent universe (again, we need only concern ourselves with Island-1 and Island-2). Big will get this joke.

When we get the Richard-centric episode, I think we will see him at the point of the tangent universe beginning, though I might amend my thoughts to say that the tangent universe may have begun in 1974, OR that a tangent universe is created every time the wheel is turned. There are any number of tangent universes if you go by the theory that for every decision made, another universe was created where that same decision was not made, I think it was mentioned here to look up Robert Silverberg's story "All The Myriad Ways." So even if we get a new tangent every time the wheel is turned, we only have the two to concern ourselves with in S6. Could the tangent universe starting in 1974 explain Richard's seeming dumbing down, that he was experiencing both universes at once? When we see his episode, will he be the only one who understand the whispers and knows them for what they are/will be?

Also, Sun is a bit of an anamoly now. If things really went bad in 1977, at least as long as MIB's loophole is starting to close shut, and if by 2004 it is Rose and Bernard's skeletons in the caves, then as of now, Sun is the only living survivor of Flight 815.

Real quick, in 1985, DC did some housecleaning where they streamlined their history in CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, a series that barely squeaked out being the first maxi-series before WATCHMEN. In effect, they got rid of tangent universes like Earth-X, where the Nazis won WWII. Earth-2 had been the Golden Age, all books published before 1955. Earth-1 (backwards as that is) became the Silver Age (1955-1985), thus explaining everything as a single timeline. That's my Island-1 and 2 joke in a convoluted nutshell.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne et all, i get what y'all are saying, i'm just suggesting that all the timelines are within island1, thinking there is an island2 is a matrix net

since you mentioned Watchman, i'm watching this & it is entertaining so far

The Mindscape of Alan Moore

Greg Tramel said...

ah, brane cosmology is a derivative of M-Theory which i do know a little about

what i'm thinking (and maybe i should have referenced that what i'm rambling on about is just about on island stuff & not earth stuff) is the strings/dimensions are collapsed due to electromagnetism on the island since multiple dimensions are the results of the variance of vibrating strings

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Are we on the same page, Greg? I think so. When I say the timelines, I do they they all belong to the Island. So when everyone is together in 2007 the question is do they knowingly allow for the tangent timeline to occur? The flashbacks we've been shown, for all intents, are "real" and I think one of the bigger arguments of S6 will be were all the flashbacks in one or the other timeline. The show is all about the Island more than anything, and I suppose an argument can be made that Jacob's touch allowed for changes in reality depending on who chose free will to make decisions. Free will branches everything into two universes. Determinism, I think, means there is only one outcome, hence, one universe. Tough call any way you look at it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Everyone should keep in mind that the code in the Looking Glass was "Good Vibrations". Also, in that ramble-on about DC, the idea of multiple earths was basically everything vibrating at a different frequency.

Greg Tramel said...

yep wayne, sounds like we are even though i know NOTHING about the DC universe

guess i'm a bit of a "graphic novel" snob but i did grow up on the Archies

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, it seems with price increases and webcomics, etc., graphic novels may be the future of American comics, there's been talk. Add that with hardly any big seller coming out on time, Lindelof took four years to script a 5 issue HULK/WOLVERINE comic. DC created a limited multiverse a few years back, in effect having WATCHMEN occur on Earth-4. They've acquired the rights to DOC SAVAGE and his world is self-contained. Sooner or later it will again be a mess, but for now Grant Morrison is "in charge" of the multiverse and he's right up there with Alan Moore when it comes to staying true to things. For now (and likely forever), no BATMAN/WATCHMEN team-ups.

Greg Tramel said...

maybe i'll try The Invisibles again or what else would you suggest by Grant Morrison?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Doc Jensen over at EW bbrought up ANIMAL MAN, there are three trades from 1988-1994. I tried THE INVISIBLES and haven't picked up anything past the first trade. Out of sheer brilliance, pick up WE3, the only thing that has made me cry since my buddy Harry Fassl died last October. He illustrated most of my work and was only 52, Rod Serling's age when he split.

LOST-related, AM is really more about self-awareness (LOST) and breaking the 4th wall (metatext).

lostmio said...

Wayne said something I really like:
"Another key is that odd bit where Ajira only flipped back a month or so in time. Yes, it had to be that way for the loophole to work, but having the Schrodinger's cat idea of a living Locke/dead Locke may unravel that loophole, because, until the 77ers get to 07, that loophole hasn't been cinched shut yet. That's why MIB Locke is spooked."

Which gave me a fun, not-too-geeky thought:
somewhere in the quantum stuff I read that when someone makes a choice or takes an action and the universe splits so that both choices play out, only in different universes, then each 'copy' (for lack of a better word) of the person thinks they're the only, unique version.
So my fun thought is - what if MiBLocke thinks he's the only Locke, and he doesn't know the 316's found his body?

Back to Wayne's idea: maybe the gap in the ash around Jacob's cabin was a visual metaphor for that unclosed loop?

Back again to Locke as Schrodinger's cat, it just dawned on me that we saw a geiger counter in Locke's first-ever fb scene, and a geiger counter is part of the cat scenario.
Also it takes Walt's warning "don't open the box" to a whole 'nother level, if the box has to do with alternate universes.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

lostmio, yow! "They're coming." meant Ilana, Bram, and the lockbox. MIB's look is a clue that he knows the loophole needs time to cinch. Did Ilana open the Schrodinger box and...? (I didn't read up on if there is an actual end to the experiment, so if it has a name or term, fill me in, gang.)

The metaphor for the ash around the cabin is dead on, man. Interesting thought on MIB not knowing RIP Locke was still around. Could he have thought RIP was still on Hydra? Regardless of Jacob's comment, we know a crapload of people are coming. Good call on the ash around the cabin. And the patch of tapestry might be a tell about the fabric of the timeline being shredded.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

going back to what lostmio sd...any thoughts on what could happen to make MIB Locke think the original body would not be found/or at least not brought to Richard and the Others?

I'm on the fence with both MIB and Jacob. Another tell for the show are the episode titles, even when they fit the subject matter. After "White Rabbit," I think the Sayid-centric episode "The Greater Good" reflects how we are supposed to view these two guys. Sometimes, I think MIB and Jacob are like Eloise and Widmore, every time I start thinking on it, I don't know who is the bad guy and who is the good guy, or if in fact they are working together in odd ways.

Greg Tramel said...

not really "knowing" evil vs. good is a big part of the show IMHO

our alchemical cosmic twins (Jacob, MiB) embody this

Cosmic Twins

BTW, the documentary on Alan Moore has ALOT of Lost resonance, he even brings up the Copenhagen interpretation

Greg Tramel said...

a little blurb form wikipedia

"Cosmic twins will often feel as though events in their life have an element of Predestination to them, wherein fate seems to have brought them together through unusual circumstances, and indeed may seem to conspire to bring them closer together spatially. Though they may not always believe in fate itself, Cosmic twins have expressed this feeling in a number of ways depending on their cultural background, e.g. acts of God, Karma, etc."

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Read up a bit on the cat. The purpose of the thought experiment was to provide "a deterministic equation for the evolution" [of wave function]. (As opposed to the free will aspect of the show, represented right now by the 77ers.) We've talked about Hugh Everett's many worlds interpretation here several times; David Kellogg Lewis wrote "How Many Lives Has S. Cat?" in which he discounts the many worlds theory using a more extreme theory of a nuclear bomb going off and there being various survivors in multiple worlds. Still, because of the blast, in dozens of realities, the survivor(s) of the blast would be so disfigured that the idea of "both alive AND dead" must be the argument, because the many worlds has too many variations to be viable for understanding wave particles. (Yeah, I get it and I don't.)

Locke is the cat, though he is not grinning like Alice's Cheshire cat. (MIB as Christian might be a good comparison, but not MIB Locke in the plinth.) Max Tegmark initially wrote about "quantum suicide" and "quantum immortality" and described the scenarios of Russian roulette and the bomb detonations.

One thing LOST has shown us is that much of the collective consciousness is apparent in the show, its not us looking at patterns and symbols that aren't there. It goes beyond the Six Degrees of Separation we saw in the early flashbacks, it shows the expanding consciousness of the universe. Or something like that.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

As always, thx for the links, Greg.

Greg Tramel said...

ok we can tie in the cosmic twins with the collective (un)conscious

Greg Tramel said...

guess i see the island as where the omniverse collides

"There's just one everywhere"


Greg Tramel said...

form the MWI article in wikipedia

"Under the Many-Worlds interpretation, every choice a person makes results in the creation of two or more "new" universes: one for each option in a given choice. Question: is it possible that all of the universes necessary to accommodate every possible choice (most likely an infinite amount of universes) were already created at the same instant as our own? Does the existence of any single universe necessitate the existence of an infinite number of others? Price gives evidence for both sides to the speculation. On the one hand he says that quantum effects rarely or never affect human decisions. On the other hand he says that all possible decisions are realized in some worlds."

Many-worlds interpretation(MWI

Greg Tramel said...

BUT "It All Adds up to One"

lostmio said...

Greg, I like your concept of the island being an omniverse collision point.
I'd take it further and say the island is a zero point field for the the omniverse. McTaggart's new-agey book "The Field" (referenced under Faraday's course at Lost U) depicts zpf's as sorta zones where all sorts of stuff is linked, tying them to esp and paranormal stuff. "A cobweb of energy exchange". I think this is the zero point field concept the writers are using. If you've not read the book (I had to order it, our library system doesn't carry it), there's a nice summary of McT's zpf concept in the PW review on the amazon site:

Wayne, my notion about MiBLocke is that he truly thinks he's the resurrected, and therefore the only, version of Locke. (gosh, Lost makes for awkward grammar.)
So maybe MiBLocke's gonna be as shocked as everyone else to find out there's a dead Locke body.

I'm not sure how that accounts for his seeming to have some MIB consciousness. But if we go back to the idea that MiBLocke is merely MiB in Locke's form, we've got to account for MiB having all of Locke's memories.

So I'll stick for awhile with the two Schrodinger Lockes, neither of whom is aware of the other. Not that dead body Locke would be aware of anything... oh dear, words are failing again, I'd better quit now.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big has mentioned the zero point field before. The web connecting energy, lostmio, is what I mean about all of these abstracts on LOST connecting with real life even though the writers use/used maybe 25% of ALL OF IT as a reference point, though the argument could be made that The Adventures of Alice in Wonderland in itself branches off into different ways of perception and its certainly not quantum physics.
The universe is one big fractal image and where certain parts of that fractal touch, we get a certain perception of symmetry.

Great. Now we'll have a Shocked Locke to go with the Flocke and the rest.

In the many worlds theory, we have one where Juliet lives, one where the bomb Artz's Jack and Sayid, one where Eloise dies in the tunnels by the bomb and Faraday is never born, and the one where Richard said he saw everybody die.

This goes with my thoughts that 1977-2007(8) has been recurring endless times and we will now see the top two layers of worlds. S-1-S5 is the tangent universe, but S6 will in effect still be a tangent universe, though its of no concern to MIB because he kills Jacob in this world. In the next iteration, MIB might not kill Jacob. And so on.

lostmio, I like the fact that the Island is zero point for ALL tangent universes and a collective unconsciousness (thx, Greg, I typed it wrong). Does this mean that MIB is determinsm and Jacob is free will and that ALL the tangent universe EXIST because of free will? Is MIB's loophole closing all the tangent universes up like a crazy Solaris? Our particular conversations here is what leads me to believe that there will be questions left unanswered that we can only make assumptions. I can't even explain Schroedinger's cat to anybody I know, except for here.

By the way, it was Larry Niven that wrote "All the Myriad Ways." My bad.

Thunderstorm said...

What would be the easiest way to create dramatic tension where otherwise there wasn't any?

First of all, you'd start outside of the show with a disinformation campaign, you'd use the one mouthpiece that would be seen as credible outside of the 'executive branch'. Matthew Fox is the one actor known to be pretty close to Damon and he is the arguable lead.

So he keeps his piehole shut for 5 seasons and NOW decides to run his mouth? C'mon people...

With the WHH scenario, it is all too predictable, so not only are they trying to stir up the diehards who read blogs like this in the hiatus, they are going to do it 'in-show' as well.

How? Previous histories/iterations displayed as an apparent alternate timeline/universe.

Well, technically they are alternate histories, but let's not get caught up in semantics here.

The 'Island' is looping, we have previous iterations where things can be tweaked, proxies might be used, all to achieve a desired effect/the same end. There is also the idea of "Flocke/MiB" breaking this loop with the compass paradox.

Which then turns 102 episodes of LOST into the final iteration, whatever happened, happened. It's a relative term, one one iteration Hurley had great luck, when he was 'chosen' to go the Island, his fate and luck changed. Obviously Hurley would have two different histories in this scenario...

But it's finally "making a record" on this go-round that means that whatever happened to Hurley in 5 seasons of LOST is etched in stone, regardless of the fact he has these previous histories (iterations).

So when Season 6 fires up, I believe they will present us with our standard narrative, The Final Iteration, which will include the people on the Island (Richard, Ben, Sun, Ilana etc.) and they will show us these previous histories WHICH HAVE ALREADY been changed, to try and fool us into thinking this is the changed universe/timeline as a result of Jughead detonating.

This is a similar thought to the blog Greg Tramel linked to, but I just wanted to use my own words to try and articulate my version of the idea.

They are going to try and fool us into thinking Jughead changed things, when these histories will have ALREADY been changed before we ever saw one episode of LOST. It's just we will be seeing them for the first time.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Thunderstorm, I brought that up the other day, that S1-S5 is the tangent universe, but you make good points by adding to that. I don't pay attention to the actors when they appear on THE VIEW or worse. Stock questions, stock answers. But I am surprised more actors aren't on talk shows and such. I'm sure Josh Holloway and the big names have been around, but I've never seen Sun or Jin or Ethan appear on anything. I think you are right in calling Jack the mouthpiece. Or maybe Michael Emerson.

The tangent universe also lends credence to Desmond saying "See you in another life, brutha." The next time he will see Jack in S6 it will be the new timeline AKA another life.

Capcom said...

Hey, Lostmio, I really like your last paragraph about this: "Back again to Locke as Schrodinger's cat.....", that's really a neat idea. :-D

Very interesting thoughts today friends, I have to re-read some of the things you have written, and the links! I really like the Chabad link.

All of this is making my head spin and wishing for the answer to be as "simple" as the punchline of a story that S.Hawking tells about a conversation he had with some woman on the foundation of the universe, "...well, it's turtles all the way down of course!", she says. :o)

I'm not sure that I'm convinced that MIB has all of Locke's memories though. It did seem that Flocke (before we knew that he was fake) was befuddled in a couple areas that were brought up by other people on his way to fulfill his mission to kill Jacob, as if he wasn't sure what they were talking about. I'd have to watch again to say exactly what those things were, sorry. And remember, MIB might know all about what's happened to the Losties, and much of their stories that they've talked about, since they crashed and lived on the island.

Heheh Wayne, so would Shocked Locke be Schlocke???? X-D

Wow, the Universe as a fractal image, what a concept! Every singular tree is duplicated in a branch and every branch is copied in every leaf, and every leaf is copied in every leaf's leaf, etc, ad infinitum. And every tree, branch, and leaf to infinity is a Universe of its own. Gazillions of Universes -- and every choice made spins us off onto another fratal branch. Whew!

Interesting point Thunderstorm...the ultimate "gotcha!", from the ultimate Gotcha Powers That Be. :-D

Capcom said...

Jinx again, Wayne! X-D

Capcom said...

Correction, the turtle story isn't about Hawking, just mentioned in his book. It seems that many people had that same conversation with someone! X-)

Interestingly enough, it's also linked to John Locke: "Philosophical allusion to the story goes back at least as far as John Locke. In his 1690 tract An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Locke compares one who would say that properties inhere in "substance" to the Indian who said the world was on an elephant which was on a tortoise "but being again pressed to know what gave support to the broad-backed tortoise, replied — something, he knew not what." (Wiki)

I'm just sayin' ;-)

Thunderstorm said...

Wayne, I read the tangent universe idea, although I am not sure we are talking about the same thing exactly. It seems to me that you guys (BM used the Darko analogy) are supposing that Jughead created a tangent universe?

I am saying that Jughead was The Incident and it always happened. Just like Miles said. And the tangential universe in this case, would be the five seasons of LOST, but the difference is, I believe that the original history (as in Good Luck Hurley) is what always happened but is forever gone. So the tangent universe wouldn't need to go away. The original would.

I'll try to cook up a better explanation tomorrow. :)

RE: Matthew Fox. This wasn't on a chat/talk show, I believe he was just at some press event and someone asked him about S6. Then he inexplicably just started dishing relatively major spoilers (I actually read it by mistake, I never would have guessed he'd be talking about plot spoilers) good thing I don't believe him for a second...

You're right about 99% of those interviews, even when Damon and Carlton are on Kimmel, there never is anything substantial. Not that I would want them to dish major spoilers. I actually dislike spoilers but this Comic Con stuff and things that actors speculate on (Emerson has all sorts of ideas)...they haven't written a single episode and they won't start filing for another three weeks. So this stuff to me is just...pure speculation and (in some cases) disinformation.

I need to iron out my quasi-theory though. The more I think about it, the more questions I ask myself.

What I do believe with some degree of certainty is that this idea has to be able to be 'made' simple. The Unstuck Island, with hindsight is a relatively simple idea in concept, it's in the devilish details that people get hung about. This is still a show, as much as we don't like to admit at times, that is made for a general audience. The ideas of all these multiple realities is not only confusing, it's devalues what we have been watching.

All of my ideas center on making sure the episodes we've seen aren't 'undone' in ANY fashion.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Thunderstorm, I follow you now. Its a tough call when we've been front-loaded with all the quantum stuff in S5. I'd be interested to see if they've lost viewers, though the "relationship demographic" might stick around because of Juliet/Sawyer/Jack and dingbat.

I have faith that S6 will not be over the top of the average viewers head.

giafon said...

I don't know is somebody already mentioned this: In season 3 episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes" we saw what happened to Desmond after turning the fail-safe key. I strongly believe that season 6 will start the same way. It is possible that all the losties that were present at the time of the incident experience the same thing that Desmond did. If this is true, then they may come to realise that they are truly "variables" that can intervene to their own past. And who knows if eloise or any "other" else can persuade them to change nothing, like eloise did with desmond. Any thoughts on this?

Capcom said...

I like what you're saying a lot Thunderstorm.

Right, Giafon, maybe the Losties will realize that they are (chosen?) variables for helping the world be a better place? The Valenzetti Equation problem notwithstanding, if as TPTB still claim that the show is and always has been about redemption, something might happen to the Losties that makes them see themselves and their purpose in the world more honestly. And that drives them to be more positive forces, outside of their own myopic views of themselves and their own immediate selfish needs. Desmond seems to have come upon this new type of thinking as you say. Well, one can only hope for Jack and Dingbat to wise up some day. Too late for Locke now, maybe. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

EXCELLENT quote about sting theory from a movie i watched yesterday

"the strings become tangled and you become thankful God created scissors"

so is Jughead the scissor that cuts the island's tangled strings?

The Nines

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 266   Newer› Newest»