Wednesday, September 23, 2009

The Mystery of the Outrigger Shootings...

The Facts

At the excellent suggestion of Wayne Allen Sallee, I'm devoting a separate post to the mystery of who shoots at Sawyer, Locke, Faraday, Charlotte, Miles, and Juliet in the outrigger canoe. The shooting takes place as the group is flashing through time. After one such flash, they find themselves at their old beach camp some time after the crash of Ajira 316. The six (hmmm...) spy a pair of outrigger canoes, one of which Ilana's crew presumably used to get from Hydra to the main Island.

The Lefties take one of the canoes and begin rowing toward the Orchid. They soon realize they're being chased by unknown parties in the other canoe who shoot at them. Juliet returns fire, hitting one of the pursuers, but the Lefties flash through time before they learn who was chasing them. And that raises one last point before discussing some possible suspects. The shooting probably takes place after the encounter at the Foot because none of the participants has a gunshot wound.

The Suspects

Suspect: The Others
Motive: Revenge




This is probably the most mundane explanation. Still, it's easy to forget that the Others have ample reason to be hostile toward the Lefties. Think of how many Others have died at the hands of the survivors of Oceanic 815 and the Kahana. Ethan, Colleen, Danny, Tom...the list goes on. I wouldn't be surprised if the Others specifically targeted Juliet as retribution for her shooting of Danny. Estimated Likelihood: 25%.

Suspect: Ilana's Group
Motive: Revenge




This strikes me as the most plausible solution. I've previously suggested that this exchange of fire represents the first shots in "Charlie Widmore's War." The conflict will be between the Others, who follow Zombie Locke as their leader, and Ilana's Group, which knows he's really the Man in Black reincarnated. At some point, Ilana's Group will spy the Lefties absconding in a canoe and take chase thinking it's Locke and the Others. Under this view, the pursuers target Locke to avenge Jacob's murder. Estimated Likelihood: 75% 64%.

Suspect: Survivors of Ajira 316
Motive: ???



This is the least likely scenario. I can't fathom why other survivors of Ajira 316 would shoot at the Outrigger 6 -- or where they would even get guns. But the survivors find three canoes on Hydra Island so basic math suggests it's a possibility. Frank and Sun take one, followed by Locke and Ben in another, both docking by the Barracks. Frank returns in a canoe, at which point there are two on Hydra. Ilana's Group only takes one, so it's possible that other survivors of Ajira 316 follow them in the second canoe. Estimated Likelihood: 1%.

Suspect: Our Losties
Motive: Change the Past



This is another unlikely scenario but one with undeniable whackadoo appeal. Since we can reasonably assume the shooting has yet to occur, it may take place after our Losties flash back from 1977. It's possible, therefore, that they're shooting at themselves in hopes of somehow disrupting the time loop they've just experienced. Again, it's all pretty unlikely. As you all everybody have noted, however, the irony of Juliet wounding her beloved Sawyer while he tries to save her life would be very LOST. Estimated Likelihood: 10%.

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

197 comments:

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx for the mention, Big. As much as it makes sense that it is Ilana and her crew, I expect something more crazy from LOST. Logistically, it seems convoluted, but I think Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid will end up flash fwded onto Ajira, where they left. They'll hop out, maybe not Sayid, and see Cesar get shot by Ben, with Locke right there. Jack will be old Jack, and I amend my original scenario. Hurley obviously cannot fit in the outrigger, but I can easily see those other guys who were with Cesar, one of whom mentioned to Lapidus about Ilana and the guns, hopping on the remaining boat simply because they are following Alpha Jack. Might be interesting seeing Jack with a gunshot wound.

Thunderstorm said...

So to be clear, both the Locke-Sawyer group and the Ilana-Bram group used a single outrigger?

Lostpedia says they can fit 6 people.
I can't remember.

Thunderstorm said...

Assuming they only used one each...give me the 75% scenario.

The outrigger that brought Ilana over and the outrigger that brought Ben and Locke over are likely still at Pala Ferry at the time of the Statue scene. (same side of the Island)

Simplicity says, these are our two outriggers. So we can probably rule out the Hydra outrigger. Not only this, why would Ilana go to the beach camp? She would if Sun wanted to go there. So they went as a group, fleeing Flocke.

Ilana and Bram have guns. They are chasing John Locke thinking he's Flocke (because perhaps some bad stuff caused them to flee from Flocke)

Juliet shoots Bram accidentally because Ilana serves the role well and Bram is good cannon fodder for a death as opposed to a meaningless bystander of theirs (the dudes carrying the case).

Until further reading from you fine folks, I'll go with this.

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: I like your suggestion that the 77ers will leap back onto Ajira 316 after the crash. Could they be the other "survivors of Ajira 316" who take the second canoe to the beach camp?

Thunder: If you look at the tiny picture of Ilana's Group in my post, you can see them all around one canoe with the Locke box on the outrigger. Who do you suppose brought the second canoe to the beach camp?

Bigmouth said...

Thunder: I figured Ilana's crew landed by the beach camp because they head first for the Cabin. Of course, we don't know exactly where the Cabin is located, but how much you want to bet it's in the Dark Territory?

Thunderstorm said...

The geography of the Island is tricky, as we all know. And it's probably best not to get too 'strict' with it.

http://thelostmap.blogspot.com/
click on the first map.

Outside of the Cabin (a debatable location all around) I generally agree with most of this map, this dude has done some great work and keeps updating it. This map also supports the Cabin in dark territory, or at least towards dark territory (east of the survivor camp)

If Ilana's plan is to head straight for the Cabin from Hydra, she would have hit the survivor camp first and perhaps stopped to check the camp for supplies.

Then probably to save time and effort, went straight from there.
But then it's a hell of a trek all the way back to the Statue by foot.
Especially lugging that big ol' crate.

This coupled with the idea that Pala Ferry is right across the water from Hydra, I have to think that maybe they took it back up there to Pala, even if heading to the survivor beach camp first.

Because perhaps at some point two of them have to 'band' together in order to go back to the survivor camp. In either case, I like the idea of this group, Ilana + her people + (the other group) Sun, Frank, maybe even Richard, took two outriggers from Pala back to the survivor camp.

Otherwise, Ilana's outrigger is already there at the beach and they are armed and on foot. And they are bringing "the candidate" Frank with them, you'd think. So Sun might follow them. And if they are going by foot, then someone else probably took the outrigger left by Ben and Locke, which is currently at Pala Ferry, to the camp. It's possible.

I just think it's made more simple if Ilana and Bram docked at Pala, later they all (including Sun) left together and that the Cabin is closer to The Barracks than on the map above, which is where I picture it in my head. Near the Mass Grave.

Thunderstorm said...

It's hard to understand the nature of Dark Territory but I always thought of it as 'patrolled' by Smokey. (like when Arzt is running in Exodus)

If Ilana and the Jacob brigade were trudging through DT, carrying the 'spoiler' to Flocke's plan...why wouldn't Smokey want to deal with them? Assuming Flocke and Smokey are in cahoots.

It's hard to speculate for sure, but what else is this all for? :)

Lastly, just wanted to clarify, it just always seemed the Cabin was a relative short distance from The Barracks area. And if Horace did in fact build it. Why would he build it in an area that was 'off limits' to say the least?

The Cabin could also 'move'. But Ilana knew where to find it. Confusing! Haha.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, Ilana gang vs the (F)locke gang seems the most logical, and i put the F in parentheses because i'm not sure who among his followers will know for sure he is actually MiB and i still haven't let go of the notion of dead Locke getting up again (for whatever/whomever reason)

i have a time travel question, if somebody is in the outrigger with the Ajira water bottle and they timeflash does the bottle timeflash as well or does somebody have to be touching the bottle?

and remind me what happened to the outrigger they were in after the rainstorm flash

neoloki said...

I have mentioned in a previous post that the 77ers might flash back onto Ajira, but I think this is unlikely now. Though it would be a good way to counter jacob's death. To many continuity problem's to deal with, at the end of the day.

I am going to stick with my original idea that we won't see this confrontation until the series finale and as such it could be anybody in the outrigger and when and where the outriggers are "parked' nor the positioning of character's will make a difference. The guns and who has them will also not be a factor in the shooting.

As such, the knowledge of what has happened to jacob and who did it will be common knowledge. So, the idea that our Losties are shooting isn't that far out of the realm of believability even if they were to recognize who is on the boat.

Again, Sawyer dies at the hands of Juliet. The irony is to perfect to pass up.

Bigmouth said...

Thunder: I'm a little confused by that map because the layout of stations doesn't seem to match with the Blast Door Map. Also, the locations of Hydra Island and the Looking Glass, as revealed in enhanced BDM from Via Domus, are very different. As you say, the geography of the Island is highly speculative, so I'm sticking with the enhanced BDM, which has the Pala Ferry dock (NW corner) pretty far from Hydra Island (SW corner).

As for Horace, I thought the whole point of the Cabin was that it was outside of the Barracks. A "little getaway for me and the missus," as his ghost put it. Remember, whatever the "rules" were in 1977, DHARMA eventually expanded well beyond the Barracks into hostile territory with stations like the Swan, Looking Glass, etc.

Good question why Smokey didn't attack Ilana's Group en route to the Cabin. Maybe it had to be elsewhere to impersonate Zombies Christian and Alex?

Neoloki: It's admittedly not as cool, but are there continuity problems if the leap onto Ajira 316 AFTER it's already crashed on Hydra Island? As in, they wake up in the plane, in their old seats, long after everyone else has debarked. The '77ers then make their way across to the Island in the second outrigger?

Greg: As I recall, the rain storm was the one that wrecked Danielle's science expedition. They land and find signs of the Frenchies but don't actually see them, so they head for the Orchid.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@neoloki, agreed that the further into the season that we do not see the outrigger flash, the more the odds might shift one way or another, with your scenario as near the final episode looking pretty good.

Thunderstorm, your thoughts are valid, but I am going with the writers pulling a jaw-drop scene, and I truly hope it is done from the POV of the second outrigger. How ironic that only the viewers ever get the full story of the outrigger scene?

Greg, I don't really know what happened ton the outrigger after the time flash. The Ajira bottle, I think, would flash simply because it was in contact with everything/one else who flashed.

Big, I like that the 77ers are "the other survivors" that MIB Locke tells Ben to "deal with," indeed. I think, too, that Cesar must play into this again, he interacted with both Jack, Hurley, Ben and MIB Locke to not be a throwaway. He knows that Ben killed Locke, as well.

Part of the problem with who is shooting is directional. Instead of walking north towards the statue from the camp, its the other way around, which affects Ilana's crew and their direction.

I do love that map and I agree that much of the DI is bunched close, with the Swan being the only station in Hostile Territory. Smokey pretty much does patrol the area and my assumption is that the caverns for the temple stretch under the east end of the Island.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, I should add the Looking Glass to the Swan, but I do think Hydra should not be SE. I'd put the island further north, due east of the barracks, perhaps.

Thunderstorm said...

Love that idea, neoloki. My first post on the subject was that whoever Juliet would shoot, would be an incredible chance for some sweet irony. I speculated Ben but it's probably too obvious, Sawyer...now that is very 'LOST'.

Some of you might know Yung23 (he posts at Lost-Tv but also occasionally at The Fuselage)

He is a map guru and updated his map in March of 2009. He used the underlayout of the BDM.

Yung 23 simple map

And his rather intensive thread, which has a lot of graphics on it. I believe the first page is supposed to have most updates.

Yung's thread from Lost-tv

Capcom said...

Very intriguing post and comments, I love it!

I have a problem, since the moment the scene aired, I've had it stuck in my head that the Lefties are shooting at themselves. I know it's crazy, but the idea is stuck there and I can't get it out of my head. I highly doubt that's the case though. But that is a scenario that could be done as Wayne said, i.e., only we would know or see it, the shootees would never know that the shooters were themselves probably. OK, don't everyone throw coconuts at once. :o)

Yes, Yung23's maps are great. But I also find it hard to agree with his placement of a few things, notably the Hydra in the far SE. NW makes more sense to me after seeing S5.

Thunderstorm said...

Yeah, the first map from
http://thelostmap.blogspot.com/
has Hydra and Pala Ferry about where they should be. I was just sharing another perspective.

The Blast Door Map (from Via Dormus) has Hydra in the SE corner.

I think the Blast Door Map is just wrong all around and should be disregarded. It has the Incident date (or at least AN Incident) as 1985.

All we have is a non-canon video game cap or this one screen-cap from one episode in Season 2, which was thrown together before a lot of the details were decided. In other words, it wasn't even supposed to be accurate.

Javier Grillo-Marxuach, said it was supposed to be Radzinsky's conjecture. I guess he didn't know where everything was, although Season 5 made it appear that he was a pretty big player. Either way, it's more reason to dismiss that map,IMO.

Lastly the Blast Door Map from Via Dormus, has Pala Ferry and Hydra on exact opposite ends. Which if you are paying attention to the outrigger scenes, is impossible.

So I defer back to the map from the blog, but to each their own.

Thunderstorm said...

^Disregarded in terms of helping with the geography accuracy, that is.

Obviously, it's not totally useless.

Capcom said...

Not at all useless, I love those maps! I check them on a regular basis, they're a great aid.

OT: on Fringe just now Walter says that Lupus creates an overaction immune system that kills the fetus. Hmm.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, would those coconuts being thrown come from that place on Rousseau's map? Ha ha ha.

Thunderstorm, way back when, I mentioned the 1985 incident on the map and it was conjectured here to be a different incident involving the DI Hanso Group. Agreed that the BDM might have changed since S2, but I want to think that Radzinsky spent more time in the Swan than anyone else and perhaps he was not told the locations of other DI stations, out of punishment or w/e. And why the Others 101 Latin? That said, the "Hydra" island could be there, but its not the Hydra we see in S5. The only way I'd even place it due north or just NE of the main Island is when they are rowing and Locke says the Orchid is around the horn, which is the ferry, statue, science team area.

And, yeah, the idea that only the viewers ever learn the real story of the outriggers is out there. Obviously the 77ers will never learn, but I still would like to see the crew of the 2nd boat wagging their heads at what just happened.

Capcom said...

LOL, right, from the coconut field or whatever she called it. "Many coconuts"? Something like that. And something that we'll never know the "why" of. Another extra piece.

Capcom said...

BTW, "Fast Forward" looks awesome. Just sayin'.

neoloki said...

the 77ers flashing back onto Ajira AFTER the crash makes has a certain logic to it and as far as I can tell can't imagine any continuity problems. It would make the most sense if they start dimension skipping at the beginning of S.6.

Great perspective Big.

Greg Tramel said...

wonder what's gonna happen to the Lefties?

i'm still thinking 2004 flash pitstop

yeah Capcom, i like the idea of Juliet shooting herself or Sawyer in the outrigger shootout

Phishhead said...

I love speculating about all this stuff but I can't help thinking back to the introduction of MIB last season. It totally changed the whole picture of what was happening. What's it gonna be next season? How will the picture shift? Obviously rhetorical questions impossible to answer. But, I am wondering. . . . I'm thinking something about what actually happens in that mysterious temple. .. . . . Is it 2010 yet?

Capcom said...

Throw out your theory, Phish!

:-D

Capcom said...

Well by that I meant lay it on us, i.e. share it, not throw it away. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Phishhead has a point about MIB. It would be nice to see someone come up with a sort of timeline of MIB/Smokey appearances, as well as interactions with characters. We'd start with Smokey and the pilot, but the real first appearance--and it still pisses me off--was in that cell phone hoobajoo mobisode.

I enjoyed FF, but saw a few inconsistencies involving the cops. NO cop is going to leave his partner after any accident. There could have been a better way to write that scene, have the John Cho character be stumbling dazed just a bit closer to the car, not across the bridge, or whatever it was. Great concept and the previews give it more lift. Loved the line about everyone being a prophet because they saw the future.

If the 77ers flash into Ajira, will Sayid be dead? Sawyer and Miles were near the Orchid when Locke turned the wheel, and they were close enough to see the statue, so they would likely flash close to the whole group by the foot.

One thing about your first photo, Big. I think that scene was the first time we'd seen so many Others in modern dress.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Another great thing about FF is that we are already getting the free will vs. determinism. Watching the Ilana/Sayid episode. W/o knowing about Jacob's 'favor,' it sure seemed that Ben hired Ilana to seduce Sayid over the MacCutheon whiskey. If indeed Jacob's favor was to have Ilana get Sayid on the plane, which begs the question, how did her wounds heal so fast?

Capcom said...

I didn't understand why the partner cop ended up across the bridge either in FF, Wayne. Did they explain that and I missed it? I don't see how he could have been either thrown or wandered that far.

As for Ilana, I suppose it depends on the amount of time between when Jacob asked for her help, and when she got to LA. If, as some people have wondered, he met with her after the Chernobyl accident, LA would be over 20 years (and a lot of plastic surgery?) later. Maybe she's going to pull off her "face" and reveal the gore underneath like the mutants in "Beneath the Planet of the Apes", haha.

:o)

Bigmouth said...

Wow...LOVED Flash Forward! I'll be writing a longer post about it and Fringe (another fave) for I Hate My DVR. But for now, wowie wowie wowie!

Capcom said...

Oh good Big, can't wait!

Greg Tramel said...

hmm, i didn't care for FF but i will give it a chance since i also thought the first 8 or so eps of Dollhouse were VERY weak BUT it redeemed itself within the last 4 or so eps of Season 1, haven't watched the Season 2 premiere yet

this week's Firnge didn't match the intensity of the Season 2 premiere and was a little too XFiles for me but cool creature

Capcom said...

Both Fringe eps have been very X-Files so far, wow. Even more than normally, since it is about Feds and monsters, as well. They even used the same house in the X-episode "Home" with the mother under the bed. As soon as I saw the house I got the shivers.

Sparty_Cyclone said...

Perhaps it was the Dharma Initiative doing the shooting. If you give that option a negative eleven percent chance, then it would all work out nicely to total 100%.

lostmio said...

Bigmouth, I loved FlashForward, too, which surprised me. I don't like Fringe at all.
The pilot script for FF is online, did you read it? It's at http://www.forwardflash.net/2009/08/17/read-the-flashforward-pilot-script/ but you have to register first, at the home page.
Spoiler alert: it reveals Dimitri's fate. (He's the one who only 'blacked out' so worried about being dead). He was originally called Dominic.

I've decided not to read the book. They say the reason for the blackout is given on the first page. I'm not so concerned about that, I'm more interested in how the characters will handle knowing their future. Still, I need some mystery to stay interested..

Re the outriggers, I don't have a clue, I'm enjoying reading everyone's thoughts.

lostmio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lostmio said...

Capcom,the FF pilot script said Dimitri is thrown from the car and ends up on his hands and knees.

I didn't have a problem with it, I assumed they put him across the bridge to give an excuse for Mark to see and experience some stuff while looking for him.

Capcom said...

Aha, tx for the details, Lostmio!

Thunderstorm said...

I thought Flash Forward showed a lot of promise. I'm not jumping over the moon about it, but it certainly has the 'tone' I like. Has the potential for some rich storytelling.

At least it 'feels' pretty unique, even after having read a synopsis of the book, I still am interested enough to check it out until it convinces me otherwise. Speaking of...

Fringe...I'll save my pitchforks for the other blog. :)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

lostmio, it was me, not Capcom mentioning the cop thing. If it was in the original script, then they should have had him near the car. Its TV, and certainly CSI has never done very much with showing anything the right way, but if anything, it made me think differently of the John Cho character.

Capcom, re: "Home," did you know that the Bates Motel was also the mansion used in The Addams Family?

Past few nights, I've been watching WAREHOUSE 13 on Hulu, and I like that much more than FRINGE.

neoloki said...

I will eventually give Flashforward a try. Fringe, I never cared for. Network TV is tough for me. I am STILL surprised I fell for Lost like I have. The writing on network TV is just generally bad.
Wish HBO would bring Carnivale back.
Apparently, HBO has some big adult oriented fantasy/adventure planned for next year that I am looking forward to. Based on a yet unfinished series of books. Sorry forget the name right now.

Capcom said...

I had also wondered why the cop ended up on the other side of the opening/ramp/bridge/whatever. But yes that info should make you happy too Wayne, altho I still see it as quite an arc to fly from the car to there!

Thanks for that AF house info too, how interesting!

I had wished that there were more eps of WH-13 for the first season, altho the new badguy (I forgot his name) is pretty intriguing. I really like the young Fed guy (again, brain cramp on the name), he's hilarious, he's got good comedic timing.

Now back to Lost, I'm wondering if we don't really have to think about Ilana's healing time, maybe Jacob just healed her quickly when he touched her. ???

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I agree with neoloki re: network TV, in that many times I simply accept the fact that it is just that, network TV. I echo the fact that LOST took me by surprise, as well. Exceptions are like HEROES, which turned bad so, so quickly. I do enjoy W 13 quite a bit, but I've only seen seven episodes (towards the end, on Hulu) and, I swear, something getting broken in the warehouse figures into four of the eps.

And with FF, the scene just made me think LESS of the Cho character, and that shouldn't be. He should have been one of the people yelling or at least not showing up in a "yo, over here" kinda way. Certainly the scene was more dramatic as shown, to me its just lazy to not meld the script to the scene just a bit better. Which is the fault of most of network TV, going for visuals over sensibility. The blonde terrorist (is she?) was left pretty much alone in a pretty damn open area, she looked more like a passenger waiting on a flight. I just decided to ignore the cop aspect of things at that point, and still enjoyed the show.

And, yes, back to LOST. I'm up to the Kate & Cassidy episode and, as I remembered, not a bit of good played out in the flashbacks. We got Ben's moving gun wound, and Kate skipping up to Sawyer as he is monitoring the cameras for Sayid. At least, from that scene, we saw how dismissive Horace was of that, whereas Radzinsky would have been full-out psycho. I am baffled by how Kate went from selfish b. to regular dingbat after the flash; sure she sees Sawyer again, but to simply forget about Aaron 100%. Ah well, everything went so fast in 1977.

I still have no clue on Ilana's burns, the order of flashbacks would indicate that Jacob touched Ilana after January of 2005, even closer to January of 2008. If J. made I.'s burns go away, why didn't he make Locke walk again instead of just bringing him back to life? I was going to say that perhaps Jacob needed Locke to be crippled so he could take his aborted walkabout, but that was Abaddon's suggestion, and he was a corporate recruiter for Widmore. Could there be a connection off-Island between W. and J.?

Greg Tramel said...

something i didn't notice the 1st time around with the Oceanic ad in FlashForward


it says "PERFECT SAFETY RECORD" just like the ComicCon ad video

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, what I liked most about that billboard was the elevated tracks right next to that building. It was like I focused on the Oceanic sign, then my vision shifted to the el train as it arced into the screen.

Before the outrigger talk ends, do you think there is a way to Martin Mull over the possible ramification of each scenario? I think we have the Juliet shooting Sawyer thing down, but any others? Let's say they show the outrigger scene early in S6, and if it is the 77ers, there's a good chance Sawyer will be wounded when they arrive on the main Island. How could this affect the movement in S6? Will the new Jacob heal Sawyer?

I suppose the main question remains, why would any group in outrigger #2 feel the need to shoot at #1? We know why Ilana's crew MIGHT, but are there any different scenarios? And if she claimed to know about the guy Sayid shot on the golf course, was she working for Ben, or did he feed her info, as he did Sayid about Nadia's hit & run?

Greg Tramel said...

just a point of order

when y'all say the 77ers are y'all including the Lefties (Saywer, Juliet, Jin, Miles) in the bunch along with the Ajira 77ers?

i guess Charlotte and Dan are dead

i assume Hurley, Miles & Jin will timeflash (if there is one) to the same place as Sawyer, Jack, Kate (and maybe Juliet and Sayid unless they are dead)

and i suppose Radz & Chang will timeflash to the same place (remind me what other DI are still on the island)

and i do assume they will all timeflash to the same place along with Sun, Ben, Illana crew, Others, Flocke (and maybe Locke)

Greg Tramel said...

good question over here about Radz

Radzinsky

Capcom said...

Haha, I was also waiting for the buddy-cop to yell his where abouts to his partner, Wayne! He was oddly silent, I found it suspiscious. Although I trust him now, I wonder if he's not to be trusted since he had no flashfoward? :-o

I also wonder about why they initiated the shooting on the rear canoe, Wayne. Especially since all of our trigger happy Others like Danny and Tom are dead, haha. But then there's defensive Ceasar, but he might have been dead by then as well depending on when the timeskip landed. It's really bugging me now who this could be! It all hinges on some random timeskip thing that there's no way we can figure from this vantage...it ain't fair. :o)

Wow, that's neat that it says that about OA on the billboard, Greg. Have you seen any caps of what the back of Feines' newspaper says?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I do combine the 77ers with the time-skippers (minus Juliet, I do think she's dead). And the most logical thing is that those on Ajira flash to Hydra, while Sawyer, Miles, and Jin flash to the Orchid, which is within site of the foot, as we could see the ocean from that vantage point. This is more or less where they were after Locke was successful.

By the way, I keep forgetting to say, I wonder if we will hear Charlotte's phrase "This place is death" spoken out loud in S6.

Capcom, I'm glad it got you thinking, as the outrigger scene is part of the mystery as is trying to "solve" LOST itself. As with Big's post on the cabin, it's neat to think through the options.

Just thought of this, though. If it was 1977 Sawyer, he'd likely recall the original shoot-out, right? And if were Juliet, etc., shooting at themselves, well, one/why? and two/how would they work that into S6? Saying that, I still think it is the 77ers in #2. Doh. I also think Sawyer is near the Orchid, so what do I know.

Capcom, re: FF, and I hope Big will bring up the point of free will vs. determinism on his other blog, the argument of being dead in April 2010 doesn't hold much weight to me. You don't have a FF, you might be unconscious or in a coma you'll come out of (or not). There will be those like Fienes who want to keep the future the same so he can solve the crime, i.e., the source behind the blackouts, and those who want to change their FFs out of fear. That paper he was reading reminded me of the Red Eye, a condensed 12 pg version of each day's Sun-Times here. The red banner, for the most part. I see discarded copies on the el, a pay it fwd commuter kinda thing.

Capcom said...

Heheh, we used to share our papers at work like that too, with the late shifters and cleaner crews coming in after us.

Yes, in FF there are so many other options for Cho besides being dead.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i see your reasoning but i think i see all the 77ers flashing to the same place on the main island somewhere (Orchid works for me) with none flashing to hydra, that is if a flash occurs, we don't know for sure

i mean they could all stay in 77 with the DI that were around during The Incedent

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, my reasoning is that they flashed from different locations in the first place. The other option is that everyone appears near the imploded Swan, but I think most of S6 is going to be set in the area of the foot.

I should add that I'm one who doesn't see as Hydra being all the way on the other side of the Island. It has to be N/NE. So Hydra is not necessarily that far to travel. Then again, Jack, Kate, & Hurley could flash, um, forward to the north point where Jin found them. Orchid, North Point, Hydra are more or less a sort-of triangle to me.

Greg Tramel said...

i suppose everybody on the island could flash to 1977, probably not but at least it would solve my issue of the 77ers flashing to 2004 or 2007/2008 or whenever while the DI still on the island still remain in 1977

i guess we have to assume the DI that left come back to the island and inhabit it until The Purge in 1992

Greg Tramel said...

speaking of DI

wanna join

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

That was one GIANT page that opened, Greg. I think I'll pass. The link about Radzinsky echoes my thoughts, as well. His story doesn't add up, though I likely would believe Inman as much as Ben regarding anything, to the point that R. likely did not commit suicide.

One point made was that R. was using invisible ink so that anyone from the Pearl (and possibly the Flame) could not see the BDM. I like this, it explains why it was done the way it was.A mystery solved w/o being mentioned on the show. I can get behind that.

Thx for the links, Greg.

Thunderstorm said...

I don't see any problem with Radzinksy's story because all that matters with regard to canon is what is shown on the show itself.

The screencap of the BDM from ?? Lockedown? was barely readable as I recall. And all further clarifications come outside of show (magazines, DVD). If you sat down at your DVD player and watched Seasons 1-5 and never decided to 'engage' in the online LOST world, you wouldn't question it at all.

And this correlates with the idea for those of use who DO know about such things, that the BDM was drawn in 2005, before the story was entirely firm (refer to prior discussions about geography, Incident date). If they have the Incident date wrong, why do we care about what Stuart knew or didn't know? It means the 'evidence' isn't entirely accurate.

Disappointing? Yeah, that's certainly accurate to say for many people. Inconsistent? No, not to canon. Those are decidedly different things to me.

Disappointment is to be expected. I thought Radz was awesome in Season 5, thought Eric Lange was cast perfectly and played it perfectly.
But inconsistency in the story is much, much less forgivable. Ultimately I am disappointed the BDM wasn't more accurate but I'll get over it.

Things like Charlotte's birthdate (while insignificant) are sloppy and less understandable. It's in the script for heaven's sake. There isn't a whole lot of this, thank goodness.

As for that blog entry, I enjoyed it and understand the disappointment, but just because we don't KNOW something doesn't imply an inconsistency. It just implies ignorance to the subject. We'll see if they fill in the cracks or not, I am not holding my breath. :)

Greg Tramel said...

we've seen a real-time 815 crash video before but this 1 is very nicely done

815 crash while Others discuss Stephen King

Greg Tramel said...

i'll find us a blog to discuss FlashForward but for those that don't know about this FlashForward "conspiracy news" fake blog, i find it very entertaining


Truth Hack

Bigmouth said...

Greg, I'll hopefully be posting a flash forward review in the next day or two, so stay tuned!

Bigmouth said...

Thunder: The BDM didn't get the Incident date wrong -- it just lists multiple "incidents." As far as I'm concerned, the BDM -- including all enhanced versions -- are canon. I put a lot more stock in that then I do viewers' inferences drawn from dialogue, timing of scenes, etc. The Hydra is in the SE corner of the BDM, so I'm sticking with that.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Thunderstorm, the one thing I did like about the link Greg gave us was an explanation to the invisible ink. It's easy to see the consistencies to why R. had to scout for certain stations, if he was too busy in the Swan to see the construction of several other stations. I can see him knowing what they would use the Pearl for, w/o actually knowing where it was. Arrow was #2, Swan #4, so anything numbered above that, I'd assume R. was out of the loop. (Anyone with me on The Flame being #1?)

Big has taken me to task (LOL) re multiple incidents, and the one on the BDM implies that it involved both the DI and the Hanso Group.

As with the detergent as invisible ink, it shows Radzinsky's extreme paranoia. By 1992, if he were to assume the Others took over the Pearl, or even before the Purge, invisible ink was the way to go. I still want to know why certain lines in script are in Others' Latin 101.

I've never been disappointed in any character development; a few people found Sawyer & Juliet's romance incomprehensible. Three years together, plus his "growing up" as he told Kate and given the security responsibilities would certainly make it believable. And in S5, I totally believed Radzinsky being as crazy as Phil. And R.'s paranoia circles back to the invisible ink.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I finished the Kate/Cassidy episode which ends with Ben and Richard entering the Temple. I noticed that Richard had some of that look like when he all piraty in S3, meeting Ben and asking him about his dead mother. I'm talking about the non-metrosexual uneven growth of beard. Plus the very-obvious and reined-in annoyance that Ben Linus might be headed for the Temple sooner than expected. I was actually thinking that this was MIB who popped out from the jungle.

Looking fwd to the post on your other blog, Big.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, the only reason I don't put Hydra where it is on the map is that this area might be considered hostile territory. Unless Jacob let them do it, just as he let the DI do whatever else they wanted.

Bigmouth said...

Can someone please explain to me how we can be sure, based on what we saw in S5, that the Hydra is definitely right across from the dock? As I recall, Sun and Frank leave Hydra in the morning and arrive at the dock at night. How is this possible if they're right across from one another?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, I'm still saying that Hydra is farther away than the Pala Ferry, even on the NW side, just closer to the Barracks. I'd assume it took Sun & Frank much longer to paddle around the north end of the Island (plus locate the dock itself)because there were only two of them, plus I'm not sure if Frank's arm was hurt from the way he favored it. I just think all things DI were on the north end of the Island, with all of the hostile territory being to the south, and that this is why there was a big deal about the Swan being in hostile territory.

I've kayaked on the Chicago river tandem, and it took 4 hours to go 9 miles, primarily because of the wind. I can go along with there being an island on the BDM at the 5 o'clock position, the one Danielle calls Alex I., but she also has one she calls Robert I. So there are other chunks of land out there.

neoloki said...

This particular map has Hydra on SE side of Island almost directly opposite. Always assumed it was correct.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_U3H2_6PxxNg/RaU_U_0saOI/AAAAAAAAAGI/_QK4cGCUYJg/s1600-h/lost_island_map_lostysmurf.png

neoloki said...

I did not read a few comments, so apologize for the unneeded map link.

From what I have seen, mostly Sawyer and Ben looking east from Hydra Island with the sun setting behind them and the shape of the Island from that angle, it appears that Hydra would be on the southern coat maybe on the west side. Regardless, on the opposite side of the Island from Pala Ferry.

Bigmouth said...

neoloki: That map makes sense to me. The dock is where you go if you want to get to the Barracks. Also, Frank was presumably well enough to row back to Hydra Island by himself.

neoloki said...

I have been assuming Jacob told Richard to let the DI build the Swan. Depending on the repercussions of Jughead, The Swan seems seminole to the the punch-counter punch between Jacob and MIB. I am going with Jacob needed the Swan to exist until I see otherwise in season 6.

Capcom said...

I trust the original actual screencap versions of the blast door map as being canon. The initial interpretations of the BDM screencap were able to get most of the inscriptions from the screencap, without creating assumptions about what is written on it before any game or DVDs came out. What is left that is uncoded is processed that way, i.e. with any unknown/missing letters, words, etc., still included in the interpretation. :-)

I haven't finished reading the Rad post yet, so I still have some confusion myself on some points in his history. Altho, his Type-A hyperactive behavior last season really sealed for me why he may have gone nuts having to remain tied to the Swan counter. Especially if he thought that he was there by his own irrational actions before the blowup at the construction site. Even though I doubt that he realized any personal blame, as he always acted as if he was right and everyone else was wrong. He may have had some kind of post-incident epiphany though, who knows.

Capcom said...

And I'm also with Wayne about Kelvin, I don't trust what he says anymore than I'd trust Mr.McPatchy, or Ben.

Capcom said...

Friends, check out what TPTB gave the first orderer of the 6th poster (that's the M.O. for this poster thing, the first one gets a bonus prize): guitar

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, you're right, Frank did paddle back by himself. That limp look more likely was simply his shirttails out. I still hold that Hydra is Robert I. per Rousseau. The ruins are also near there. I'm probably in the minority, but I am going by distance, particularly since S6 has shown so much activity going from NE to NW (the horn of the Island that leads towards the Orchid).

neoloki, I agree about Jacob & the Swan. It was the DI & the Hostiles, and the DI never knew of Jacob. Part of the Truce might have involved Richard telling Horace that they could build in that location, as long as it was the big players like Horace and Radzinsky, not Amy, Paul, and the like.

Capcom, for awhile there, Locke thought it was his duty to push the button, and then Eko after him. As you said, I doubt he felt any blame, but maybe it was more as if he coveted the entire station, seeing as how he seemed to have designed it himself.

Rousseau's map vs. BDM, with VIA DOMUS never considered canon. I mentioned earlier that if Radzinsky was in the Swan soon after July 1977, he would not known the whereabouts of some stations, such as the Pearl, though he would know the purpose of each station. He would know of the sharks and polar bears and Juliet's dolphins, but I'd think Rousseau could map the coast better than R. Mind you, we will all likely never see the existence of the Island, and S5 confused us (or me) several times with the land being on the left or the right. I'm a sucker for maps, though. I like me my maps. Maybe there's one in the Black Rock journal? Will we see it? No, but again, I like me my maps.

neoloki said...

i don't see why the DI would even have to know it was ok for them to build The Swan. As far as they were concerned, they thought they were being sneaky. Richard, via Jacob, just turned a blind eye.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Small things like this are up for conjecture, neoloki. I find it hard that the DI could do anything at all w/o Jacob knowing. Then again, the DI knew only of Richard, so its more of a 'who's fooling who' kind of thing.

Watched part of the judgment episode last night, and this is the episode where I started thinking Hydra was further up the coast. Daylight when Locke & Ben leave, daylight when they arrive at the dock, with the Island behind them as they come in to dock. Another thing that doesn't matter in the long run, just that I forgot it was more this episode then the finale that made me question locations.

I did think it was great when MIB/Locke smiles at Ben when he says that the Others have no real name for it, but "you call it the Monster." Whole different context for that line now.

I'll check the DVR entry now.

Greg Tramel said...

are we sure Horace (and maybe a few in the DI "inner circle" or whatever they called it) didn't know about Jacob?

Bigmouth said...

Greg: That's what I wonder, too. If Jacob brings people to the Island, why not DHARMA? Of course, I can't shake the suspicion that Radz was operating under the MIB's influence. Is it possible Jacob brought them and MIB tried to kill them using Radz?

Another random thought: what if MIB was trapped WITHIN the Island? Maybe drilling at the Swan site released him, necessitating construction of the Cabin to imprison him once again...

Greg Tramel said...

hmm, interesting idea that the drilling may have released MiB

and that leads to me wondering who knew about MiB:

just Richard?
just the leaders of The Others?
all of The Others?
DI inner Circle?

lostmio said...

Don't know about MiB but I've wondered if the drilling and detonation have something to do with Smokie's origin. Smokie didn't seem to be around in 1977 or earlier.

Greg Tramel said...

good point Lostmio, i've also wondered about when smokie 1st arrived or was created or awakened or summoned or ...

Bigmouth said...

Doesn't the existence of the sonic fence suggest Smokey was a presence even then?

lostmio said...

Bigmouth, imo the fence was originally intended to keep out hostiles (altho it didn't work for Richard) and other unwanted intruders.

In 1977 Smokie wasn't in the tunnel or accessible thru the leader's house. But more tellingly, everyone roamed all over the island, with no mention by anyone of Smokie. Amy and Paul picnicked, LaFleur's security force searched every sector, Rose and Bernard wandered freely from their beach house to Dharma territory, etc etc. We saw so much activity in so many places in 1977 that someone would at least have been concerned about Smokie, even if there had not been a sighting.

Greg Tramel said...

i have a hypothetical time travel question

say after the end of season 5 all the original 815ers flash into the Swan and pushes the button while Des is out killing Inman so 815 lands in LAX (i'm not saying this is even logical or likely to happen but rather just a what if)

(1)due to our rules of time travel we've discussed here is it possible to have the 815ers in the Swan and another set of them landing at LAX

(2) doss this jive with whatever happened, happened and course correction since the 815ers are all on the island are on Sept 2004 they just got there due to course correction

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

good point, lostmio. But it says something creepy about Richard being able to walk past the fence. If MIB was imprisoned IN the Island, as Big suggests, maybe Smokey was, as well.

If Jacob "invited" the DI to the Island, wouldn't he have done it at the Lamp Post? Someone knew how to create that set-up. Just sayin, Jacob wouldn't have gone to Ann Arbor. Or Portland. Anyone thinking Mitellos recruited Horace?

Bigmouth said...

Lostmio: Good point about them not encountering Smokey despite searching every sector of the Island. Also, one wonders why Smokey wouldn't stop DHARMA from building the Swan (unless, of course, that's what MIB wanted...hmmm).

Still, I have a hard time believing DHARMA built the sonic fence to stop anything but Smokey. There are many more cost-effective security systems -- e.g., a simple electric fence. As far as I can tell, Smokey is the only thing that fence actually stops!

Also, Richard taking Ben into Smokey's lair doesn't make much sense if it's trapped under the Swan site.

I think the fence is important because of what it says about DHARMA's knowledge of, and relationship to, the Island. That is, the fence's existence implies they knew that Smokey would be a problem AND how to stop it. All of which makes me wonder, did Jacob have a hand in DHARMA?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Still on the judgment scene--I'm only watching 15-20 minutes around 3 AM each day--and I'd have to say Horace knew something. We now know that Ben lived in Horace's place. He goes into the bedroom, moves away the suit jackets, slides the panel and the hieroglyphics are right there. Some sort of arrangement had to be in place to have one of the buildings cover an entrance to the tunnels. Particularly a spot that allows one to summon Smokey.

And it never came to mind, but 1988 Jin and 2007 Sun were standing in the same spot near the hole where Montaud lost his arm.

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: That's a great point about one of the houses being built specifically to accommodate Smokey's summoning chamber. Again, I think DHARMA had more knowledge of the Island than we give them credit for.

I still think the Room 23 video ("God loves you as he loved Jacob") was created by DHARMA.

Capcom said...

Me too also. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

are y'all sure Room 23 wasn't after purge, one of the images is "a speedometer from a 1992 or 1993 Honda Accord with the needle at zero"

Greg Tramel said...

BTW, Aldo (the guy reading Stephen Hawking at Room 23) is gonna be back Season 6

the actor is also HILARIOUS in the TV show It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia

Greg Tramel said...

i'm leaning toward only Richard has had an in the flesh interaction on the island with Jacob and MiB (i mean of course prior to Flocke)

Greg Tramel said...

i think the Jacob stuff was added by The Others into whatever footage was created by DI, i don't think DI knew anything about Jacob or MiB

Bigmouth said...

In 2004, Horace tells Locke in a dream that he's been dead for 12 years, which would place the Purge in 1992. Also, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Richard and/or Jacob had some relationship with the folks in Ann Arbor.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, Jacob could be the wise man Eloise mentions in the Lamp Post. I think that the DI knew much more about the Island than, say, the 1954 US military or the Black Rockers. But it would be the people in Ann Arbor who knew, with Horace and crew being the chess pieces in the 70s. The more I've watched S5, the more I think that the Truce is something perpetrated by Jacob, through Richard, and it involved things like Horace's house being built in a place that the smoke monster could be summoned. (I mean, the Truce was implemented as soon as the DI showed up, not months or years after).

Greg Tramel said...

yes, i agree Purge in 1992,

i've wondered before if Mittelos Bioscience had an Ann Arbor connection

yeah, i think Richard is the go-between for all of Jacob's wishes, i don't think DI had any direct contact with Jacob or MiB for that matter BUT we will see

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, it makes sense re: AA, as we did not see Mittelos mentioned until 1968 or so. And, nothing against Richard Alpert, but I would think AA would be better suited to have come up with a cool sounding M. Bioscience.

lostmio said...

Jack and Sayid came up through Horace's house after swimming through the water and picking up the detonator in the underground chamber.
So they were right there, where Ben had previously summoned Smokey, but there was no sign of the monster.

They had to break down a wall to get from the chamber to the area that led to Horace's house. So my impression was that Horace just thought he had a cellar, and that Ben - who knew about the chamber - opened up the underhouse area when he moved in.
And it didn't look like the chamber was accessible when Ben summoned Smokey. All we saw was dirty water bubbling up from where the chamber should have been. Back in the 70's the water was clear that led to the chamber.

Bigmouth said...

Lostmio: I'm confused. What makes you think the chamber holding the Jughead was the same secret room Ben where summoned Smokey? I got the sense they were two totally separate places. Ben's secret room was behind his bedroom closet wall, but hole that Jack and Co. opened in the wall was in the basement/laundry room.

neoloki said...

Yeah, I believe they are two separate places. The tunnels explain why Richard can get past the DI fence, if that was still a question.

Given that we do not know much about Smokey, it is still up in the air whether he has allegiances or is a type of familiar to the Island that both MIB and Jacob can control independently. Quite possible Jacob gave the OK for the DI to be on the Island (whether they know it or not) and through his wishes Smokey leaves them alone. MIB might also have something to gain from the DI's presence on the Island. The repercussions of Jughead will say a lot as to which side is benefited more by the creation of the Swan, Jacob or MIB.
That being said there still seems to be this assumption by many Lost bloggers that MIB is bad and Jacob is good. Lost is rarely black and white. Good and evil is more of a subjective perception of oneself than an objective fact. Thus the continued use of "We are the good guys", and Franks all to appropriate response.

lostmio said...

I assume Ben remodeled the house, to hide the opening to the underworld.

And since Alpert had to break down that wall, IMO it makes sense that Horace didn't know what was behind it.

I could easily be wrong of course.

And I've since had a hunch that that since the Jughead radioactive stuff was left behind down there, that it eventually had something to do with Smokey's creation - ie *something* came in contact with all that radioactivity.
That Smokey wasn't in evidence in the 1974-77 scenes seems to support that.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

lostmio, I understand what you mean re: Richard tearing apart the wall from inside the chamber. My thoughts after rewatching the judgment episode, and then thinking about the scene you described, leads me to believe that the hole was filled in. Horace was never around to see the damage to his place. For now, I'd say that if we never see 1977 again in S6, I'm just assuming that the Hostiles put wall back together with or without Horace's knowledge. lostmio makes a great point about Richard going beneath the sonic fence (another example of answers we may just be making up for ourselves but which make perfect sense), and I'm sure there might be a story where the DI are told they could stay on the Island but were given specific instructions on where to build their structures, which in some way led to that particular cabin's hidden wall.

lostmio, re: b&w. I think this is why I keep looking at Eloise as being manipulative. Because of that one statement "I'll kill you one day," so many people think that MIB is bad. I liken it to MIB being Widmore and Jacob being Hawking. How is Jacob a "good guy" because he quite purposefully allows Nadia to be run over by the car or to have Juliet's husband be hit by a bus? It's all subjective, and one of my favorite episode titles from S1 is "The Greater Good". MIB, like Widmore, is up front about everything. Jacob is laid back, Eloise overly dramatic.

neoloki said...

Yeah, Wayne they seem to have made it a point over the last five seasons to play in they greys of the moral world. Nothing is more telling than the relationship Jack and Locke had. These are not sides they are opinions.

I have this unshakable hunch that if there is a good side Widmore will be on it when it is all said and done.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The first real tell, neoloki, was when the Others were calling the real Others the Hostiles even though they were all the same group. Labels work just as good as colors, when it comes to perception. Rewatching these last dozen episodes (Hoth for right now) is a thrill, I had loaned out my VHSs in June.

Soon after the season finale, Big and I (and later others) tossed it around on here that both needed to exist, and so Jacob couldn't die w/o harm to MIB, and that MIB needed someone else to actually do the killing. Which is like saying that there must always be both good and evil in the world.

I seem to fall back on the idea that Jacob and MIB are exactly the same but Jacob is somehow running things. (Compare this to Eloise who can find the Island and Widmore who cannot), Jacob is the one killing off people like Nadia, or having Ben or the Apollo bus driver do it for him. MIB searching for the loophole is like Widmore buying the journal of the Black Rock, trying to find a way back to the Island.

neoloki said...

given the possibility that Jughead created some sort of alternative time line what is the likelihood that we have seen parts of this time line already, e.g. during someone's flashback or Des's flashes?

Greg Tramel said...

yes Neoloki, i think we've seen bits from season 6 events already, like those changing picture frames which very well could be another timeline

VERY interesting Big that Widmore and Ellie have never uttered Jacob

remind me what Widmore told Ben was the reason Ben needed to kill baby Alex

Greg Tramel said...

pardon my skipping record but yes Wayne, i see Jacob/MiB as the alchemical rebis or Janus or Cosmic Twins or Sun/Moon or Sirius A/Sirius B or ......

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i'm not so sure we will never see 77 again, Sawyer may want to save Juliet another time around

actually we may see them flashing back to Black Rock days (or hopefully earlier)and try another round at crucial junctures through 2008 (i know, i know TPTB said no more time travel)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, every "wrong" thing we saw--Juliet's CD box, the frame, even the phonograph--were square and three-dimensional. At this point, I think these were all clues to A/changing the picture on the box and B/the inside of the box it self. This gives me hope that Locke is indeed alive and that Desmond's role in S6 is to do something similar to saving Charlie from the arrow and thus changing the picture on the box of the S5 finale.

neoloki, I mentioned over the summer (during the Donnie Darko talk) that there is no reason not to believe that most, if not all, of the S1-3 flashbacks were the ones from the faulty timeline. In some cases, little will change when course-corrected, i.e., Kate killed the wrong guy instead of stepdaddy. If there was a closed loop timeline that we will see end in S6, we might also see that, for some of the survivors, their lives are pretty much the same. If so, I'd be curious to see whose past or flashbacks might now be different.

Also, Ben's bullet wound changed. This would be round, for the most part. Would that represent the worm or the skipping record? Greg caught the Swan's phonograph months back, any other circular things I'm forgetting. I suppose an argument could be made for Juliet's CD itself.

Bigmouth said...

Interesting...I have a different take than some of you. I think the show is increasingly turning into a traditional battle between good and evil like the Stand or Dark Tower. As in Stephen King's works, some of the forces of good are flawed and imperfect. But I believe there is evil on the show, and my gut tells me it's the Man in Black.

As the for Desmond's visions, I do NOT ascribe them (or the picture frames) to the alternate reality. These are the ripples from pebbles thrown in the time stream that create instability in the primary reality. An alternate reality only results when you toss in a boulder like the Jughead. Even though it's probably not strictly logical, I don't think the alternate reality existed UNTIL the bomb was detonated.

Greg Tramel said...

couldn't an instance of Miles going down the stairs happen AFTER Jughead

Greg Tramel said...

Big, I think Lost is the dichotomy of an evil vs good story and we'll never know who the "good guys" really even if they wear white hats

i'd even go as far as saying there are no good or bad guys on Lost

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, there are no good or bad guys in real life, either. I think LOST reflects this idea of the greater good, from Eloise screwing with Desmond's life & Sayid being taught to torture, to real life parallels like the US military displacing indigenous tribes in the Pacific. That's why I see all these shades of grey, and, honestly, as of right now, Charles Widmore seems to be the guy I'd be behind.

Big, here's a scenario for you, a bit different than what I mentioned before about the flashbacks. What if the alternate reality is from 1977-2004? That is, from Jughead in the Hatch to the failsafe in the Hatch? Just tossing that out there. That would fit my flashback theory, only not the way I originally thought about it.

lostmio said...

Bigmouth, I too think a lot of the little bobbles we've seen are due to glitches in the matrix.

I'm on the fence about whether we'll see it's all yin/yang or if it's good v evil. TPTB have emphasized yin/yang to date, but they may be saving good v evil for the last.
I'd love to see an epic battle or struggle during the last half of the last season. So far, every time we've geared up for one, it's fizzled out. We're due. If more core characters are going to die, then by gawd their deaths should *mean* something.

That doesn't mean I think Jacob's all 'good' and MiB's all 'bad'; maybe they have a bigger common enemy.

Capcom said...

I'd say that there were at least "gooder" and "badder" guys in life. :-)

lostmio said...

Capcom, good ones (goodwins) and bad ones?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, 'gooder' and 'badder' are rather subjective. The Greater Good. Jacob lets Nadia die because he needs Sayid. Really? There wasn't a way to do that so that Nadia lived? Richard couldn't have gotten Juliet to the Island without plastering her husband (who seems to be on every dad-blasted show imaginable) on the pavement? Tougher call in real life, with the Pacific bomb tests. Could the US military have taken a different option? That one is tougher, you said once before, we'd have to be in 1941 to have that choice in our heads.

At best, good and bad are on a seesaw. But I'm a cynic. Oh, crap. That makes me Jack. Gahhhhhh.

beer said...

cant wait for this to be answered in s6! i imagine there'll be a lot of drama involving whoever gets shot. maybe another new party introduction? maybe some outlandishly wicked time period?

neoloki said...

Lost has been fairly contradictory in it's approach toward's good and evil. We have Locke's monologue to Walt at the beginning of season 1 describing the two sides of the game and we have the over use of "We are the good guys" and the very muddy grey's in which it has presented the character's to us. Lastly, we see what may be two demi-god's having a discussion about the usefulness of mankind with the only real clue to who they are or what "side" they may represent by the color of their cloth's.

I definitely understand Big's point, as I am a huge fan of the Dark Tower series, but the very unavoidable difference between The Tower and The Stand vs Lost is that both of King's books take a very clear stand as to who is in the white vs who is in the black from the very beginning of the stories. That is quite the opposite to the way Lost has approached the problem of good and evil and it seems like it could be a little to late in the game to start delineating sides.

neoloki said...

What made me start mulling over have we seen an ALT universe again was from watching the conversation between Des and Jack on the stairs of the stadium after Jack twisted his ankle and Des telling Jack "what if you did save her". He just seems so damn sure of himself. Of course since it is Des it could be from his time skipping mind. Anyway, at this point, I have no idea. It seems to create more consistency problems than it solves to believe we have already seen an ALT.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I guess my main argument with the Dark Tower, and for me The Stand fits more in the good vs. evil bit (wanting to see if any group of people could live side by side with the indigenous tribe of the Island after a plague hits the rest of the world), is that I simply do not want to see LOST ripping off another property. Granted, many of the viewers, even those who read King, may have skipped DT (I've only read The Gunslinger, myself, and that was 25 years ago), but still.

Desmond has always had some great lines, but we've seen him, for the most part, after his meeting Eloise. He could have been seeing Jack as he did Charlie, so I agree with neoloki.

Back to King, I really am not a fan of JJ Abrams in that he really isn't that original at all when he is on his own. So, not knowing how much input Lindelof had originally, the DT analogy might be quite close.

And, yea, neoloki, those early scenes between Locke and Walt are quite telling. It makes me waffle back and forth as to what way the Island influenced Locke from S1E1 onward. Perhaps Jacob and MIB were fighting for control of him, and MIB won when Locke was almost pulled down the rabbit hole by Smokey. An aside, I still love how so many of the characters refer to Locke as 'an old man.' I guess I'd qualify.

Capcom said...

LOL, Lostmio. X-D

I know that good and bad can be subjective. There are many zillions of shades of grey between the black and white. But I think that we could agree on something obvious like, a person who stabs a newborn baby for no reason is bad. That's what I mean. Say, people who are kind to babies are on the good side (in that instance) and those who don't, aren't. But then, the person who takes care of the baby might slap their grandma sometimes so that's bad. So I see what you're saying. On a larger scale I would still confidently say: Hiltler=more bad, Churchill=more good, haha. But just about every single character on Lost has a good and bad persona, barring the kids who are just kids. When I grew up I was told that people are either good or bad, but then I got into the workplace and saw that some of the most despicable backstabbers there could be very compassionate when a coworker had a death in the family. It took my niave baby self quite a while to sort that out. It's all about a sliding scale of the moment sometimes, I suppose (not to be confused with "situational ethics" of course).

Seriously, Wayne (I mean Jack), Juliet's dead hubby is now dead on Heroes too, right?! Well, as dead as anyone can be on Heroes I guess.

I would not mind finding out that we'd seen Des in an alt-universe, but I think I'll be upset if we find out that some of the pre-S5 Lockes that we've seen were really MIB. Even if it would explain some of his contradictory behavior.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, Big could do an ENTIRE post on Ivano I can't spell his last name. I first knew him from HOMICIDE, which was the LOST of the 90s for its storytelling. He just shows up everywhere, he was even the head vampire on HBO's TRUE BLOOD. I swear, he owns Hollywood, and Tom Bergeron owns the other half.

And the kids on the Island are innocent...until they are shoved into Room 23, right? Sometimes I wonder if Room 23 was created by Ben and forged from his experience in the Temple.

I hear you about The Job. I worked in the Loop (not a closed loop, ha ha) and people down there walk around like they envy the dead.

Capcom said...

Don't forget that Ryan Seacrest owns most of Hollywood as well! Yes, that Ivano actor, Terry O'Q, and McHattie (the new guy on Fringe) are some of the hardest working guys in Hwood, check them out on IMDB, their body of work is
non-stop. Altho I think that McHattie does a lot of his work in Canada where he's from.

Interesting point about Rm23 and the Temple, hmmm.

Capcom said...

P.S. I finally did some visual research on lava tunnels and posted them on my Lost Science blog. Just a few neat pix posted.

Greg Tramel said...

i', MORE than willing to label Keamy as a bad guy and

Greg Tramel said...

i'll label Cooper a bad guy as well

you know how TPTB keep saying their going to do something completely different this season

i have this strange vision of EVERYBODY that has ever spent any time on the island suddenly appearing all at once, PANDEMONIUM!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, skipping the bad guy thing for a minute, what if Zombie Island in S6 means something else like; can't say 'bad' people because that isn't always the case. Who is dead on the Island that can be connected to the O6?:

Sawyer/Anthony Cooper

Jack/Ana-Lucia

Kate/Joanna, because she tried to steal her identity, otherwise, I got nothin'.

Hurley/Libby

Sun/Ben

Aaron/Claire (or vice-versa).

I thought about this awhile ago, but your mentioning Cooper brought it back.

beer said...

is response to neoloki, i don't think they entirely wish to differentiate between 'good' and 'bad'. even though early on the show was for the most part black and white, they've continually blurred the lines as the show has progress. personally i prefer this approach, and most people are sensible enough to realise that 'good' and 'bad' are simply a difference in points of view and totally relative. while most people find enjoyment from aligning themselves to a particular side in said tv show, wouldn't it be even more intriguing if they first had to figure out and discuss who belonged to what side before they could begin to align themselves? lost shrouds itself in mystery in virtually every aspect of the show, so i don't think the distancing from locke's division is anything less than purposeful on the writers' part.

neoloki said...

I think Tom Friendly said it best concerning the DI on the Island and what did The Others know, "This is not your Island. This is our Island and the only reason you are living on it is because we let you live on it."

Capcom said...

I would have a terrible time trying to figure out what crazy group to survive with if I were crashed on this island. When people began to split up I'd probably go rogue and take care of myself in whatever way I saw fit, and help anyone who wanted to work with me. And I would probably die defending my right to stay in the comfy Swan, up to the point where Locke blew it up. :-)

Didn't Tom actually say that in reference to the Losties and drawing the line in the sand with them? Granted the Hostiles drew a line with the DI, but again, if I were a crashed Lostie I'd reply back to Tom that if anyone helplessly crashed in my yard/house, I'd help them to make sure that they were okay and then send them on their way, not try to kill them off.

Bigmouth said...

Aren't our Losties the heroes? I mean, it wasn't clear at first. Sawyer, Sayid, and Kate all had dark secrets. But hasn't everything we've seen since S1 confirmed they're the good guys?

neoloki said...

They are definitely the protagonist's, but it has been something I have been working over after my re-watch. We don't seem to have any good guys yet. I am actually thinking Iliana's group are going to be the "real" good guys. With a possible revelation as to her character and her importance to the Island.

As I see it now the only "good guy" is the Island.

Season 6 will most likely start making definitions as to who is on what side.

neoloki said...

Oh and yes Capcom that was the line in the sand speech. Interesting that he looks at Locke and comments about opening doors he has no business opening. Which really is the best clue we have that The Others had a reason for letting The Swan to be constructed.

Bigmouth said...

I see your point but disagree. I think when characters speak in terms of the "Island," they generally mean Fate and the Man in Black. Of course, in the Dark Tower, Roland and his ka-tet are agents of Fate, while the Man in Black serves chaos. But I think it's the reverse here: Fate = the Valenzett = human extinction = the Man in Black.

neoloki said...

Ka-tet, yes, I have missed that. Those books really took me by storm. Reading the last book was just brutal given the fate of most of the characters. I imagine the final season of Lost to be similar.

I can see events spinning in that direction. I have always looked at The Island as a sentient being, but maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying in reference to the Island.

neoloki said...

Sorry, but were you saying when Tom says this is our Island he is referring to fate?

Bigmouth said...

Well, no. When Tom says this is "our" Island, he means exactly what he says. There is an Island, and we control it. But as I mentioned in Cabin Fever Relapse, I think the Others may be connected by virtue of Smokey to the Island/MIB. In that regard, they may well be agents of Fate. Again, I think it's important that Charles Widmore only speaks in terms of the Island. It's Ben and Richard who mention Jacob -- e.g., to justify Ben's failure to carry out Widmore's orders re Danielle.

Bigmouth said...

PS: I increasingly see Jacob as a Lucifer figure, as Greg mentioned some time back. So, say the Island is a sentient being -- basically God. The MIB is its primary personality, while Jacob is the his alter. In this way, Lucifer rebels against the creator.

neoloki said...

Ok, I see where you are going with this and it has a very appealing symmetry. Just not sure The Others are in the MIB camp.

Bigmouth said...

I don't mean to suggest they consciously serve the MIB. As I said in Cabin Fever Redux, I think that decoy village is a great metaphor for the Others themselves. Jacob uses them as misdirection to keep the MIB's attention focused away from the real threat, which is Ilana and Co.. I'm coming back to the notion they're the special children of DHARMA. Jacob secreted them off the Island to prevent the MIB from getting his hooks in them.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, another tell is that the fake doorway had a DI station logo with a door on it. Door within a door, and didn't the Dharma logo branch off in two directions, like a bow tie or double doors?

neleoki, since you are watching S1 now, and knowing what we all now know, do you think that every key character has been played for the fool in some way? A year or so back, I was saying, hey, if I somehow found my cerebral palsy gone and knew what/who cured me, would I then believe in the magic like, well, the Island and Jacob in Locke's case. Or would I be more objective, although hearing Jack and his science thing would make it tough to not see the magic.

The indigenous tribe on the Island is who I'd seek out to live with, if I had to. But it would seem impossible at this time, what with the Hostiles dressing in two styles of clothing, the possible DIers like Amy and Ethan, and then the Others, if they are in any way separate from the Hostiles.

I thought Tom was being a d!ck when he gave that line in the sand speech, the plane crashed, the Others let [italics] them live there (and yet they abducted Walt)? After seeing Jughead, though, that changed when I heard Richard's speech. He talks about give the US military the option of leaving the Island, and they didn't and were then killed. If Tom, through Ben then Jacob, was talking just a bit less arrogant (and if he hadn't taken Walt), I'd have accepted the fact that it wasn't about the survivors, it was about some of them walking all over the Others territory. Even though the Others took survivors from the tail section, too. When will I shut up, right? Guess my point is that too many people seem to be saying the Island belongs to them in quite the selfish manner, which makes me think of that line Jack had at the Orchid, "It's an island, John."

Good point on Widmore only refering to the Island whereas Ben and Richard refer to Jacob. I wonder if there's anybody out there who refers to MIB?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Adding to what I typed a while ago, I thought of something, and it came from my thinking about how interested the Others were in the children. Richard expressed dismay to Locke about how Ben was getting sidetracked by this and then gave him Sawyer's dossier.

Was Richard simply not concerned with the pregnancy problem because the Hostiles could have children safely (in the Temple or by some other means)? And Richard was annoyed with Ben because he was more concerned about the Others instead of the Hostiles, when Jacob had appointed him leader over both groups?

neoloki said...

Wayne: We all have prejudices which make us more or less similar to Locke and Jack and these prejudices would effect our interpretation of any particular "mystery" of the Island. However, given your situation or Rose or Locke would you really have a choice at how you reacted toward the Island for curing you? Absolutely not. Such an overwhelming change and the relief that followed, one would be hard pressed not to embrace the magic in their own particular case. This is what makes Locke such a sympathetic character. The difference between Rose and Locke however, is not only did Locke not have use of his legs he had a giant hole in his soul he needed to fill.
In the end though, the Island or Life plays us all for a fool. This is just a part of being human. That is what is so engaging about the characters of Lost and why we are sympathetic to them.

On another note, and it might be that I as a person am slightly possessive, but I have much empathy for Tom's statement. The way The Others go about expressing their ownership could use some work.

And, given Richard's agelessness I wonder if he cares about children at all, lol.
He is just looking at the bigger picture. Another thing to the intuitive file as to why I believe Richard is all to aware of an impending war between Jacob and MIB.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neleoki, granted that there are no magical islands in real life, I'd actually believe that my immediate problems (lack of coordination between right and left side), might be the result of the shock of impact, maybe even a whack on the head that shuffled things up inside. If, after a few days, I saw that I would be doing things like buttoning my shirt, well, I might start using the word magic over science, if the science is the fall to earth itself.

LOST is about human nature, possessiveness and/or exploitation (amongst other values). I can't agree about Tom, even if he was following Ben's (or Jacob's) orders. Draw a line in the sand, but only after we swiped your kid. Seriously. The only real place to go back to for a clear-cut view of the Hostiles, is 1954, when the very ignorant US military chose to not leave the Island at all. Everyone else, at least from the 70s on up, can be seen as highly hypocritical, as are most of the 815ers, so I applaud Locke for being the first one to actually question the leadership on the Island.

Who is to say, though, that Richard and his group back in 1954 hadn't already exploited the people who were responsible for the Temple and Tarawet itself? In the Richard-centric episode promised us, I sincerely hope we see him before the arrival of the Black Rock.

Re: the children. My point on that is, unless the Hostiles simply do not age, how do they continue from generation to generation. Granted, we've never seen any children amongst the Hostiles. I'm going back to how Ben deviated from his work for Jacob when he became obsessed with the pregnancy issues, presumably after Alex and Karl got together.

Widmore wanted baby Alex dead, it was Richard who told him that Jacob OKd it, but I thought he was making that up on the spot, on the basis that no one knew Rousseau had just given birth. So why take Zack and Emma, why recruit Juliet through Mittelos? Were the effects of Jughead's radiation harming the chances for ANY children, including, say Eloise, pregnant with Faraday? I'm just trying do differentiate the Hostiles and the Others in the 70s and before, as opposed to the Others after the Purge?

Anyone? Are the Hostiles all in their teens to start, like Widmore and Ellie in 1954, or tweens like Ethan in 1988? Richard himself says the leaders are all chosen at a young age, and he waited until Locke was 6 or 7 before approaching him, then again when he was 15 or 16. Are there no kiddie Hostiles, once a few adult Hostiles die off are they simply replaced with new recruits?

neoloki said...

It seems to be a combination of recruiting and taking. They take the most athletic as Goodwin said and I am sure they recruit the smartest. But they could easily keep their numbers abundant through these means.

How are you distinguishing The Others and The Hostiles. I forget.

neoloki said...

I don't see where age matters much. Any children or teenagers are probably kept separate until an age where they can deal with the living conditions.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Richard's group are the Hostiles, Ben's the Others, is the easiest way for me to think it out. Of course, I in no way think Richard's group is hostile in any way. Just going by labels set on the show.

Agreed on the physical attributes, neleoki. When we saw the guys on the boat before Walt was taken, I honestly thought that we'd be seeing enhanced humans. Maybe those who fought Sawyer and Jin, much like Ethan, had extra-strength after being born on the Island. But before S2, I was thinking more about the DI and their programs.

Again, though, where do the "Hostiles" keep their children until they are ready to be a part of things? Inside the Temple, allowed to play within the walls? I'm guessing this was where Ben was as he healed. That's what makes me wonder if they have children at all.

Capcom said...

LOL you're right Wayne, way back when, we did think that the Others were superhumans or something like that. Especially after all the implications of TLE to life extension, physcial enhancements, etc. :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I didn't want to look up the TLE stuff, but I knew there was something there. And whatever did happen to Joop, anyhow?

After talking about the difference in the two groups, what if the third group (Ilana's) is actually MIB's group? Sure, Jacob visited her, but we don't know why (yet). I doubt this is the case, but there's no reason one set of "good guys" wouldn't be following MIB.

Bigmouth said...

I think I was a little unclear earlier when addressing Desmond's visions and the Comic-Con reality. I think the Comic-Con reality splits from the history we've seen at the point when Juliet hits the bomb. But the Comic-Con reality reflects the possibility the bomb will NOT detonate. That is, the two possibilities superimposed like Schrodinger's cat are:

1) The bomb detonates, causing the Incident, which necessitates the Swan, which causes the crash of Oceanic 815.

2) The bomb does NOT detonate, meaning no Incident, no Swan, and no crash of Oceanic 815.

I realize this is really counter-intuitive, but it relates to Wayne's comments a while back that the events we've seen actually comprise the tangent timeline. History as we've seen it was ALREADY rewritten by successful detonation of the Jughead. The question is whether the tangent timeline will revert back to what's SUPPOSED to happen, as depicted in the Comic-Con videos, by the bomb's FAILURE to detonate.

Greg Tramel said...

didn't we see the incident (electromagnetic suck) happen at the end of season 5?,

i don't think Jughead had anything to do with the reason to build the Swan

Greg Tramel said...

also i don't think building The Swan will always in turn make 815 crash

Greg Tramel said...

Big, you're gonna like this, FF ep 4 is titled Black Swan

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Big, back when I was talking that the Numbers were people, that was more a thought experiment. A 'wouldn't it be cool?' thought. But when the tangent universe really came into play, after the Comic-Con videos and around the time of the Donnie Darko posts, I was thinking along the lines of exactly WHAT they could do in S6. Figure 16 episodes, 18 hours tops. They almost have to draw from past seasons in a way that is also new.

Also, being a big fan of symmetry, I'd say that it is S1 and 2 that will reflect 5 and 6 for that tangent. Kate & Sawyer's stories were said and done early on, with Kate's finished off in S2 when Wayne was torched. (If "What Kate Did" aired in S1, all the better. S1 and S6 are mirrored.) I still find it intriguing that of all the people Jacob touched, those were the two that had no intention whatsoever of listening to him. I don't really know what to make of Sawyer, but once I saw the con video with Kate killing the wrong guy, that was the thing that sealed it. Not Hurley, not Oceanic (though they might be just as important, or represent two other tangents.) With Kate, it's one of the shows bromides, "you make your own luck." Sawyer changed, she didn't. If she saved young Ben it was to save her own @$$ and not be a wanted fugitive. Jack's line about 'her heart being in the right place' after she talks to Roger Linus simply shows what an idiot Jack is.

But all of my thoughts on this came from the whole Kate on the run video. If it had been Kate as a nurse or Hurley cursed in a different way, I'd go along with another way of thinking. It all comes down to Kate, he said through gritted teeth...

Greg Tramel said...

i'm hoping Season 6 is mostly about he island events and they don't don't dwell too much on the 815 that didn't crash tangent but i still don't quite get why the 815 no crashing tangent would be the tangent that's SUPPOSED to happen)

anyway, the only way i can see TPTB pull it off is to have duplicates on the island while their "real" selves are on earth living as the 815 crash never happened

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I hear a few other people (like at that LOST event here) about this 815 not crashing reality, and I really don't see any indication that this is the plan for S6. We don't even know if the white flash was from Juliet detonating the bomb, or from Jacob's being stabbed, or any other possibilities. I think that the events in 1977 did something, I just don't think it meant 815 didn't crash.

By the way, neoloki, you've been wanting me to mention when I've rewatched "The Variable." Just about done with it now. Even after watching it the first time, I noticed the singular in the title.

Bigmouth said...

Good point, guys -- I think that white flash was actually electromagnetism from the Swan site. I'll elaborate on this in a separate post, but I think Juliet will mind travel and meet Jacob. He will offer her a choice: either detonate the bomb and effectuate the reality we've seen, or don't detonate and destroy the Island, which will reset events from 1977 onwards.

neoloki said...

Thanks for remembering. What struck me was how Faraday seemed to have his whole day plotted out in his journal. He new exactly what was going to happen and when, including seeing Jack first, getting his attention and then leaving him hanging. It was like he had Jack on a string the whole time because he knew he would not be able to see his theory through to the end. Similarly, when he went into the others camp waving the gun and shooting just seemed contradictory to his character. For the plan to work, and ultimately save Charlotte, he knew he would have to sacrifice himself. Eliose killing him was intragal because she was probably the only won who could convince Richard or Widmore to go through with the plan. Jack was always the one, the variable, to detonate Jughead and i am fairly sure it has happened in every time line. My first thoughts.
Did you like the episode?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, I enjoyed each Faraday-centric episode, as well as pretty much every scene Jeremy Davies was in. I recall a lot of people talking on how that episode made no sense, and that was the actual point of my thinking that the numbers were people bore (a little) fruition. It was like Faraday had about-faced on everything he had said before. Not to me, one scene that illustrates that is when Faraday asks Jack if he saw a scar on his neck when the freighter arrived on the Island. Same old Dan.

I always found his journal intriguing, as he was always flipping backwards, which makes sense as the front of the book is 1997?-2007 and the latter half is 1974-1977.

And, after seeing "The Incident," the way Faraday had the day mapped out is a great observation, neoloki. Even knowing exactly when Chang was due to show up at the Orchid, that's why he left Jack so abruptly. There were likely DI records in 2007 that talked of the incident at the Swan down to the day, hour, and minute. But he needed to get Jack hooked first and everyone else would follow. Was the shootout with Radzinsky planned? It seemed that Faraday let that gun come into view, get things going, so that he was pushing Jack in the direction he needed to be in ASAP. Same with walking into the Hostile's camp (finally, Kate tells us the camp is 2 miles beyond the sonic fence, some sense of distance!), waving the gun. Even if someone else had killed him, Eloise would have still seen her handwriting in the journal, which is the turning event for retrieving Jughead.

The only thing I'd say, though, is that I think Faraday, not Jack, was the variable. Think on that and I'll follow up.

Bigmouth said...

After that episode, I wondered if Faraday mind travels in the moments before dying and somehow adds information to the journal in the past, then promptly forgets what he's done. There may even be some self-deception in Memento fashion.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I like that, Big, but let me one up you. As Faraday dies, Desmond becomes aware of it. OK, I don't know where to go from there, buy you gotta admit, both of these guys are intertwined.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Finished "The Variable" and on to the next. It's obvious that Faraday wanted his mother to see the notebook, but not be killed, by her. He tells Jack that Eloise was wrong, to get Jack to believe in the Jughead plan. I was surprised at how easily Faraday strolled into camp, compared to, say, Sawyer and Kate with Ben.

But is the variable his notebook, his mother, of himself? neoloki, this episode presents a Schroedinger's cat for Eloise, in that her son is dead but she then knows of a way to make him alive again. (Well, a variable S. cat, if you will.) That's why I lean towards Faraday and not Jack.

The scene with Kate and bloody Jack sums up everything I despise about her character. When Jack tells her 'most of it was' re: the bad times, she gives that glare that screams out I Am A Selfish, Etc. Etc. Etc. I think even the Kate lovers would have seen that.

And was Richard honestly afraid of being shot? He flinched at the moment Eloise's gun went off, and I wonder if that was for the viewer or for him thinking Faraday's gun went off. I'm not thinking that Richard would die, rather that something would leak out of the bullet hole, and not blood.

But that is my thought, that Faraday was the variable. Dead and alive, if one figures that, if 815 never crashes, he's back in Essex Mass., brain-fried, yet still alive. Of course, Eloise in 1977 doesn't know this, she just wants to bring Dan back.

Thoughts?

lostmio said...

The scene with Kate and bloody Jack sums up everything I despise about her character. When Jack tells her 'most of it was' re: the bad times, she gives that glare that screams out I Am A Selfish, Etc. Etc. Etc. I think even the Kate lovers would have seen that.
hmmm... that scene summed up a lot of what I love about Kate. Regardless of how hers and Jack's relationship ended, she was shocked at his assessment that the bad outweighed the good.
Brilliant character growth, imo. I totally understood where she was coming from.
Obviously your mileage varies and I won't argue the point; suffice to say I grumbled mightily about Kate's character developments in Seasons 2 & 3 (see my posts at the fuse and other forums) but in Seasons 4 & 5, I came to appreciate how she had changed and grown. Without Kate, I doubt I'd be Lost-obssessed.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

lostmio, love the line about your mileage may vary, ha ha. I can agree on one thing, that Evangeline Lilly as the character seems so much more emotive in S5, the scene described is evidence of that. Another is when Sayid asks her why she would take Ben to the Temple and her reply about since when was shooting kids OK?

That said, the only thing I see in Kate is a demographic hole to fill, not just for the guys, but for the women, too. Emotive is one thing, selfishness is still selfishness. The bad did outweigh the good considering they left the Island and abandoned everyone left behind. I get what you mean, and there's no real argument towards any specific character on the show. Oh, another line. Eloise asks if Jack knows what he is doing and Kate smugly says 'he thinks he does.' That was a great delivery, but the other line was just a repeat of her ping pong emotions with Jack re: Aaron and calling him "MY son," and the like. Great lines come off of that, though, like at the marina when Ben tells her 'but he's not your son, Kate.' It is something to watch earlier seasons, I rewatched S1-4 last summers back, and saw not only the clues about S6 but how just about everyone has gotten better with their roles.

Elizabeth Mitchell and Michael Emerson (and where was he hiding?) have always turned in incredible performances (Terry O'Quinn, as well), but who would have thought anyone would see Josh Holloway pull off S5?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I've just started "The Incident," and finished the episode preceding it. I read a little bit on the various mentions of the Incident itself. Evidently certain locations in Via Domus are considered canon, one being the Incident Room, which had a reactor inside another geodesic dome. Going with how the Orientation tape was spliced, I can agree that whatever happened in 1977 didn't bump up the schedule, they didn't need the countdown timer for awhile yet.

I'm biased now, but from the first few minutes of the final episode, I came to realize that Jacob sure seemed smug (the second time I've used that word this morning). A thought went into my head that MIB wanted to find that loophole just to get Jacob from tampering with peoples' lives.

neoloki, let me know re: my thoughts on "The Variable."

Capcom said...

Kate doesn't do a thing for my female demographic, Wayne. :-)

E.L. plays her well, but Kate's the type of chick that I'd stay far away from if she popped up into my circle of friends. Mainly because when she's not causing trouble, it seems to follow her, heheh.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word demographic in regards to lostmio's comment (or anyone else's who are just hanging around), as pretty much every character is there for a certain viewer, starting with Shannon in her bikini (up to foaming at the mouth Radzinsky, for all I know). I hope my main point wasn't lost and that I agree that there is a huge difference between Kate from S1-3 and Kate S4-5.

If I had only been a casual watcher, only then would I have been hooked once Mitchell joined Emerson, and certainly Terry O'Quinn is my demographic. The only other show that has allowed me to invest any real emotion towards the individual characters was HOMICIDE, and even there, it was maybe four of five characters, tops. And I can see where Kate's character evolved, I guess it might have been easier to say that, whereas Jack and Locke flipped on the science/faith thing, Kate is still Kate. And mileage may vary.

Of course, my comments on Kate hinged on the last few episodes, and most of us have commented on how lame some of the lines between Jack, James, Juliet, and Kate were in "The Incident."

Anyone rewatch that episode yet and get different vibes on both Jacob and MIB?

Capcom said...

Wayne said a lonnnng time ago (sorry):"Capcom, I didn't want to look up the TLE stuff, but I knew there was something there. And whatever did happen to Joop, anyhow?"

Right, during the TLE clues and DI info, there were indications that they were working on (in addition to life extension) some kind of way to make humans more "hardy", i.e., as superhumans maybe. There was talk of cloning in TLE (which TPTB later said there wouldn't be any of specifically in the show so we could relax about that) and blood exchanges, organ transplants, etc. So when Ethan showed up all strong and such, it was thought that he might be one of those experiments on superpeople or something like that. Those thoughts have fallen by the wayside since, and I don't think that it's valid now...until we learn more about RA and how he got the way we suspect he is, maybe.

Joop alas, has not been heard from since the end of TLE. But we always wondered if he was just a made up DI story -- although in TLE the secret DI reports claimed to have found an island with life extension properties, which left Joop's validity up in the air. Mittlewerk had also healed one of the Hanso CEO's cancer somehow and was holding his better judgement hostage, to get him to do Mittlewerk's dirty work.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, thx on the MIA Joop follow-up. I went by the strength of the men on the boat when they took Walt because in S1, I never watched the show until summer reruns (in part due to the 7PM timeframe, something that is now affecting me watching FF). And during those summer reruns, they left out Ethan and Claire. I caught up with the S1 DVDs.

I remember when the cloning and the Evil Twins were considered to be the same thing, as well. I'd like to think that the producers wanted to see what angles the viewers were intrigued with the most.

And, man. James, Juliet and Kate are in the sub and Kate just sounds so damn self-righteous. It's the "Aaron is MY son" Kate. I know its to move the storyline, the next scene is when Juliet overpowers the guy with the NyQuil, and from this point, adding Jack, the four do say some pretty dumb things re: love. But her little speech on the sub was just so reminiscent of Kate off-Island. Say what you will about her changing, but she was ready to run as soon as that lawyer came to her door. People whose first instinct is to run do not get the right to be self-righteous ever. At least, in my way of thinking.

Capcom said...

Roger that. :-)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Of course, I'm not hating on Kate. Sawyer killed Duckett way back when and Juliet did tell Jack that he never wanted to read her file.

And I'm a bit baffled as to why Aaron and Ji-Yeon seem to be forgotten, though I get that S5, for the most part, took place over three-four days for Ajira. I have them on the list for surprises in S6. And Joop. Just kidding. Zombie Joop. Still kidding. It is 48 degrees here. NOT kidding.

lostmio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lostmio said...

just to reiterate:
Anytime a relationship has gone south and the guy (or gal) sums it up by saying the bad outweighed the good (as did Jack), well, that's a *huge* bummer for the other party.

I'm sooo not a shipper but EL's reaction was dead on...
kudos to her for that. And the writers, who obviously have been there, done that.

Capcom said...

I agree, Jack was a total beef jerky for saying it like that. He pursued her there a few times, so if he wasn't happy he should have moved on. And he didn't have to wreck their relationship by becoming a whiney suspicious pillhead either.

I guess that I don't care for Jack OR Kate, heehee.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I understood what you were saying, lostmio. And, yes, that scene was handled better than some of the rather forced scenes in "The Incident." Jack had done a turnabout in 1977, not wanting to operate on Ben, deciding to get the bomb. I'm sorry, but this was the first time someone told something to Kate to her face, instead of her jumping back and forth between Jack and Sawyer, even when Sawyer was in the Barracks with Locke.

For Jack, the bad did outweigh the good. So, sure, everyone involved with the scene (writers, actors) handled it well, I'm saying that finally someone told Kate how it is. And part of his gut-answer, to me, is that he had a different outlook on everything since the Ajira flight.

I never cared for Jack, and the irony of the show is that so many people looked towards him for guidance. He's changed in 1977, and to me Kate is just the same as she was at any point during the series. Doing what SHE wants.

Again, Lilly has made her character grow, but that is in a great way the writers providing her with better material. Kate with Jack off-Island, making him leave, maybe the bad did outweigh the good. We don't know how long they were together before they split during that three year period.

Capcom is right, it was a punch to the kidney to say it that way, but Jack was matter-of-fact since returning. I saw it that way. My original comment, lostmio, about swaying the Kate-lovers was more an off-hand comment. For the scene in question, we can agree, the writers handled that perfectly, compared to lines in the finale like Jack telling Sawyer "I lost her." Time restraints and all (for the episode, I mean, not the delivery of the bomb) that's just plain silly writing. Also, that was like Jack when he was not in 1977, at times whiny.

But I was also glad that someone said something that made Kate glare and have dagger eyes than have her go running off back to whichever guy in S1-3. Taken in context, within minutes she was running back to the Barracks.

In regards to Jacob, I could see why he touched Kate, Sawyer, and Jack. Well, Jack just before Ajira, because he needed Jack and Kate to emote. It's refreshing for me to watch a television show where I actually have feeling towards so many of the characters. I'm watching FLASHFORWARD now and I can't even recall some of the characters' names.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, how many days passed between Mr. Oxycodone and his cleaning up with Ben dumping the pills in the toilet. Before that, he was drinking, but the show really doesn't make it clear for how long. Even though his thinking was wrong, he was suspicious of Kate, because first-wife Sarah had an affair. And all Kate had to do was tell Jack who she was on the phone with, even if it meant mentioning Sawyer and Cassidy.

To give Kate her due, Jack could have mentioned having conversations with his dead father or that Locke knew Christian from the Island. Obviously, he couldn't say that, but he could have come up with something, stress, worries, whatever, the usual things that people give as excuses for drinking and taking drugs. Both of them screwed up the relationship, there is no doubt in that. I wish there was a better timeline of how long they were together and how long before there was tension between them. A line like "we were together for ---, and then things went to hell." But that wasn't Jack in 1977. Because the good likely did outweigh the bad, it's implied that they broke apart fairly recently before Ajira and Jeremy Benthem. We, the viewers, only know from the flashbacks.

Capcom said...

Hooboy, I don't know how long that was, but I bet it could be found somewhere on Lostpedia. I still can't believe how people can get hooked on that stuff, I took that for my back for a while and it made me wretch.

Wayne, don't forget also that Sawyer got his dig in too, when they first lived at Otherville before Keamy blew it up. He said something to Kate about her jumping back and forth between him and Jack, and she slapped him.

When Jack and Kate started living together after the O-6 story, they began to lie to each other and I said right then that their relationship had no hope. You can't lie about important stuff, and make it work.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Right on Sawyer, Capcom, though I was keeping him out of it. I agree with lostmio on the scene I originally mentioned. And the marriage was like LOST itself, no one tells anybody anything, one of the better examples being when 1977 Jack mentions that Locke is dead, Sawyer asks why, Jack says "Doesn't matter." The main characters mirrored the DI's "Circle of Trust." That sure went well, didn't it?

Overall, I'd simplify what I originally said to mean that Kate's character being different than the first few seasons doesn't much make me care for her character any more than I did at the time she stole Joanna's ID in S1. If I feel strongly its more that she is one of the major characters, I'd put her #2 between Locke and Jack, to be honest.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oh, and I think Oxycodone was before my time. Back when my bones in my left arm were severed in 1989 (it was 18 days before they could sort of glue them back, along with hunks of bone from my right hip), it was shots of Demerol every three hours and Tylenol#3 every 90 minutes.

If any of you get the Current cable channel, or go to Hulu.com, Vanguard's premiere for this season is "The Oxycontin Express."

Capcom said...

Yes, on that "It doesn't matter" comment, I feel that dialogue like that falls under the lameness that you mentioned yesterday about Flash Forward and Heroes. And it really annoys me. Did Sawyer even say, "What do you mean it doesn't matter?" as Jack walks by? If he does, at least that I can buy. But saying nothing seems lame and soap-opera-ish to me.

:-p

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Actually, yes, Sawyer does say that, but then Jack goes on about where they are and all. (This was at North Point.) There was another example is when Sawyer is reading his book and Jack comes in. I'd have to check the transcripts, but its a similar exchange, though less stilted. Unlike HEROES, though, in some cases I just think it is Jack's arrogance (whether he knows it or not). But there were other times where, well, it's best explained the way Hurley once said about not being "in the group" or however he put it. Re: FLASHFWD, I'm hoping they'll see their shortfalls soon enough.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Had to run off for a minute there. Re: the dialogue, though, I'd still think there's a comparison to the DI's Circle of Trust. Think of it, Miles was given membership, or whatever, simply because LeFleur wasn't available to take the body bag to Radzinsky. Kinda sorta, Nikki and Paulo are asked by Locke (well, Nikki volunteered) to trek to the Pearl. It was mostly Jack who made those decisions of who would go to, say, the black rock to meet Tom.

In this way, Kate has changed, since being on-Island in 2004. Aside from lying about being on the phone with Cassidy (and Jack was lying to her, at least about his drinking, also), Kate has been pretty straight-fwd about everything. Granted, she went running off after the lawyer showed up at her door, but she soon enough came clean, sort of. And in 1977 she is truthful to a fault, when she talks with Roger Linus.

Around 3 AM, I watched a bit more of "The Incident," with Ilana in the cabin. Damn, the painting of the dog on its side is just like an upside down version of markings on the wall where Anubis calls the smoke monster (which can be seen on a recent entry here re: the cabin itself.

Might just be a continuity thing, but I took notice that those jars of goop were no longer on the windowsill. I think there might be more to it, because they spent more than a passing glance at the area in question. I'd really like to know if that stuff was thrown in there for spookiness in general, or if will serve a purpose now that it's gone.

Capcom said...

I think that if I were Kate I'd have tried to handle the thing with Sawyer's secret better, but that's just me. That is, be fully honest about the fact that a favor needed to be done, but also be open about how it was a private thing that she was protecting for someone/Sawyer. Stupid Jack couldn't handle the level of secrecy that she created at that moment and he binged. :-p

That's good that Swayer did ask Jack about the "why?" of Locke's death. At least there's that to make it more realistic. And that's the thing with me...it's not realistic for one person to say something shocking, and every time that happens, the other person never responds, like in most TV these days (then fade to commercial). Most of the time in reality, the reciever of the news would do SOMEthing. I realize that it's a too/technique of creating mystery, but that's just a pet peeve of mine.

BTW, if anyone wants to read a report from someone who went the Damon's book signing last night, check here: link

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, I always fall back on the "its only TV" line, but it can be so damn easy to interject something later. Don't have the exchange keep going, just acknowledge that it did. Have Sawyer tell Juliet that Locke hung himself, and that Jack said he seemed unhappy. Easy for me to say, but at least the implication that an actual dialogue between Jack and Sawyer occurred.

Also, I agree re: Kate and Jack, and what difference would it matter if Kate mentioned Cassidy and Clementine? At that time, did she and Jack think that they would ever see Sawyer again? Sure, its a promise of secrecy, but, well, that's a weird call.

And, man, some of that dialogue in "The Incident" is wretched. But at the same time, some of the best acting is accomplished, and I thought it amazing the first time when Juliet confronts Sawyer with changing her mind because he looked and Kate and before he could reply, she says "Don't, don't, don't," until it's barely a whisper. An example of the writers giving something to the character or their ability to act, this time the latter.

Jacob must have given Jack the Apollo bar around 2001, as Jack was fairly new as head resident, and that might have been Sarah on the operating table. (In S1 and S2, it seemed most of the flashbacks were three years in the past). An interesting line is passed right before they continue the operation. Christian says "If you can't finish this, then I will." Kind of cool.

Re: its only TV, check out Big's other blog, it's refreshing to have dialogue on other, more light-hearted shows.

Capcom said...

Achtung! The new poster is up, and very nice. It's of the island mountains and part of the A-team listening to Shannon translate Rousseau's transmission. If it were green instead of beige I would buy it. link This one will go quickly, it's a keeper.

Capcom said...

P.S. Poster text translates to: "I am alone on this island. They are all dead."

Capcom said...

I thought that was an amazing moment between S and J too, Wayne. It was the moment that threatened to put Sawyer kind of in the position of Kate, as the human pinpong ball of love.

Yes, interesting CS quote. Didn't he tell Jack something to that effect when Jack was a kid, such as, "You don't have what it takes to finish" or "to go the distance", or something like that?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Poster is sold out. That's why we have friends who can hi-res in printing shops. I'd still only like the Locke poster, and really, fifty bucks is insane. Well, to me it is. I have quite a few friends who make their living at this kind of thing, and I do like the colors in the latest, and the Oceanic one is nice, but the van, and Hurley? No.Whoever did iLocke had the right idea.

Yes, Christian did tell young Jack something along those lines, I think some kids beat on Jack. The one I mentioned was eerie in that Jacob was right around the corner, or maybe even inside the room (somehow). I guess I shoul add Jack to the list of Sawyer and Kate being touched at the very start of their future selves, with Jack I guess it would be confidence, which he had on Island but lost off Island.

Capcom said...

People are reporting on the ARG blogs that there are posters already on sale on Ebay and somewhere else, before the buyers have even received them in the mail. #9 is going for $250 reserve, I think.

GoMerch oversold 15 units, and had to call those 15 peeps to tell them that they would not be getting their posters after all.

:-p

KoreAmBear said...

Hey guys,

Darlton and a few actors are going to be at this panel event at the Hawaii Film Festival Saturday night and I’m going. Any questions you want me to ask them? I have no idea what kind of questions are off limits.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Just ask them if we're going to see a Tom-centric episode in S6. I always thought he knew more than he was telling.

Greg Tramel said...

COOL! gotta love Jorge

http://the-odi.blogspot.com/2009/10/jorge-garcia-public-libaries-in-hawaii.html

Greg Tramel said...

so is MiB DeGroot or is that too much of a stretch?


http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/2009/10/mysteries-of-universe-dharma-initiative.html

Greg Tramel said...

interactive Lost map

http://specials.washingtonpost.com/timespace/lost/

Capcom said...

Wow, have fun Koreambear! I can't think of anything to ask that you couldn't. Go for it!

:-D

KoreAmBear said...

Hey guys, the event was OK not terrific. Obviously no spoilers. One lady asked Darlton whether there were any easter eggs that we did not actually find. Damon said that there have been non-easter eggs thought to be easter eggs by the online community but no easter eggs that haven't been discovered in earnest by bloggers and such. Jorge mentioned people post screen caps (implying that you all everyone have it covered). Well check out my LOST pics on my FB page - some of it was from earlier but the last few are from the event. They also had Ben's passport on the display case as well - I took a pic but didn't upload that one. Enjoy.

KoreAmBear said...

Darn, here's the link:

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2381497&id=1245074&l=4d78655169

Capcom said...

Nice px Koreambear!