Wednesday, August 26, 2009

Cabin Fever Relapse...

Are you all everybody ready to get a little whackadoo?



Since the Season 5 finale, I've wondered why Ilana's team of chosen ones brought Locke's body to the Cabin. Why didn't they proceed directly to the Foot, where the "shadow of the statue" riddle suggests Jacob can be found? And why did the corporeal Jacob need Locke's body in the first place? These questions had me stumped, until I reconsidered a possibility that several of you raised after the finale. What if "Jacob's Cabin" actually belonged to the Man in Black?



After the Man Behind the Curtain, I guessed that Jacob's ghost was imprisoned in the Cabin. This seems wrong now that we've seen him moving around freely off the Island. But whoever lived there clearly needed a body, so what about the Man in Black? He hasn't taken that form since his talk on the beach with Jacob. And the ghost in the chair sure resembles Silas Adams, a character from Deadwood played by Titus Welliver, the actor who also plays the Man in Black.



So why were Ilana and Co. bringing a body to the Man in Black? It's possible they're his pawns, but recall my speculation in Three Black Swans that Jacob wanted the Man in Black to find his Loophole. I think Jacob tapped Ilana to lead the dangerous mission of hand delivering the corpse in a box to help the Man in Black escape. When she found the ash circle broken and the Cabin empty, she correctly surmised that the Man in Black had already found an exit.



I believe the Man in Black escaped by temporarily possessing his faithful dog Cerberus. Their master-pet relationship is symbolized by Cerberus's canine name, the dog painting in the Cabin, and (ironically) Zombie Christian commanding Vincent the dog to wake up Jack. The relief carving of dog-headed Anubis feeding the smoke monster (yet another ironic reference to their relationship) suggests the Man in Black uses dead souls as Scooby Snacks.



Master and pet were reunited the same night Hurley stumbled upon the Cabin. The two figures he spied therein were Cerberus and the Man in Black. Somehow, maybe even with Jacob's help, the Cabin moved outside the ash circle, which previously kept Cerberus at bay like the sonic fence around the Barracks. The Man in Black then possessed Cerberus and walked out of the Cabin as Zombie Christian. The change in Christian's clothing symbolizes this possession.



Once the Cabin moved back inside the circle, however, the Man in Black was locked out by his union with Ceberus. Claire was his literal and figurative key to reentry. The Man in Black used her to break the circle so he could get back into the Cabin and claim to speak for Jacob when Locke sought directions in Cabin Fever, thereby initiating the Loophole. Claire eventually realized the truth and resisted her captor, making the mess that Ilana finds at the Cabin.



I suspect Jon G is correct that the ash circle is actually the remains of the statue of Taweret. It was destroyed some time after the Black Rock's arrival, probably by dynamite from the ship's hold. The same magic that kept Cerberus out of the Foot also prevented it from entering the Cabin. I'm guessing this will all be shown in a flashback that also reveals Richard Alpert killed the Man in Black, perhaps in the same explosion that destroyed the statue.



Richard's longevity wasn't so much a reward as a sign of Jacob's trust. He became a permanent firewall between Jacob and the Others. Remember how the Tapestry seemed to surprise Ben? That's because it was his first time inside the Foot -- and for good reason. Ben's loss of "innocence" to Cerberus as a child connected him with the Man in Black, who became privy to everything Ben knew. No wonder Jacob never spoke directly with Ben.



For decades, Jacob communicated with his people solely through lists. And that raises one last whackadoo speculation for you all everybody to consider. Remember how Other Tom mentioned that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list? Mikhail said something similar about Kate and Sayid. Based on the foregoing, I believe the omissions were deliberate. Jacob wanted to keep their identities a secret from his nemesis until the last possible moment.

UPDATE: August 31, 2009

Many of you were understandably skeptical that Jacob chose Ilana to bring the Man in Black a body. And you're right that it's more likely she was -- as she says -- bringing the corpse "to show it to somebody" -- presumably Richard -- "so they'll know what they're up against." But Ilana and Bram also discussed the possibility of Frank being a "candidate." I think it's still possible, albeit less likely, that Lapidus and Locke were both potential "candidates" for the Man in Black to inhabit.

I can imagine Jacob telling Ilana: "You're my insurance policy. I'm planning to let the Man in Black escape to help facilitate his Loophole. But there's a very good chance fate will frustrate my plans. So I need you to bring a body to the Cabin in case my gambit fails." When Ilana saw Locke both alive and dead, she suspected that the Man in Black had already reincarnated himself. But she brought Locke (and Lapidus) to the Cabin just to be sure, before taking his body to Richard.

That brings me to another excellent question that several of you raised: how did Ben come to erroneously associate the Cabin with Jacob? I think the simplest answer is that Richard unwittingly misled him. If Alpert killed the Man in Black, he probably helped imprison the latter in the Cabin as well. Jacob may occasionally have needed to communicate with his nemesis and used Richard as a message bearer. Maybe Ben followed Alpert during one such trip to the Cabin.

But if you really want to follow me down the whackadoo well, consider the possibility that Richard deliberately deceived Ben. All it would take to arouse the latter's curiosity would be a warning to stay away from Jacob's forbidden Cabin of mysteries. Particularly for a little boy, the fascination would no doubt prove irresistible. I could even see Jacob ordering Richard to encourage Ben's relationship with the Man in Black to facilitate the Loophole.

Nor would it surprise me if the Others turned out to be pawns in Jacob's long con of the Man in Black as well. Richard equates Ben's loss of "his innocence" with becoming "one of us," implying the Others are all connected to some degree with Cerberus. So, what if the Others were always just a diversion to distract the Man in Black from Jacob's real game, which involves off-Island pieces like Ilana and Jack? Perhaps those primitive costumes and that decoy village are really metaphors for the Others themselves...

318 comments:

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Capcom said...

Intersting ideas! I especially like the thoughts about Ben's loss of innocence and Jacob's distance from him.

I'd like to find out where the Cabin is located on the island in respect to where the statue is, for the purpose of tracking Ilana's group's trek from Hydra to cabin to statue. I might look around for some info on that.

Capcom said...

I have kind of liked this fan theory at Lostpedia about Ilana-Co.'s mission to the cabin, it has set well with me for a while:

"Jacob's cabin was never Jacob's cabin: it was Jacob's Nemesis’ cabin. The circle of ash was there put by Jacob and his allies to contain Nemesis inside the cabin. When Ilana goes to the cabin she is not looking for Jacob, or Richard. She is going there to check and see if Nemesis is there. She wants to check that before doing anything else because she fears that Nemesis has escaped and taken the form of Locke (as they saw Locke after the crash of Ajira 316), and she wants to make sure. When she realizes that he is not there, and sees the cloth with the picture of the statue, she is worried, because that signals that Nemesis has escaped and is going towards Jacob."

It's also thought that the hanging of the statue section of the cloth in the cabin was a sort of taunt from MIB saying, "You're too late, here's where you'll find me now, nyuk-nyuk." I don't know if they would need Locke's body to trap MIB though, he didn't seem to need it to do his dirty work, but maybe if he comes in contact with the body that he's ape-ing, he can't do it. ???

Again, good post Big, and not so whackadoo...but that picture of the bride-on-the-run sure is!

:-)

Anonymous said...

you the man! nice thoughts!

-lukemh

neoloki said...

the knife through the cloth, I always interpreted as MIB saying I am going to kill Jacob.

Iliana was bringing the body of Locke to show Jacob in order to warn Jacob what has happened and who to be wary of.

Thunderstorm said...

I totally agree that MIB controlled the cabin, I've thought this all along. I also love the thing about 'Jacob's List'...

I think one of those people that he 'touched' is his true leader...not Locke (who obviously was MIB's 'mark' and failed the Lama test anyhow)

Current guess is Kate.

Also interesting that you are now considering both Christians to be the same being. I still lean towards the idea that one is Christian reanimated (business suit) and one is Christian totally 'manifested' (Island attire) but your idea is a good one.

Lastly, props on the ideas about Claire causing the ruckus in the cabin.

3D said...

Capcom said...

"I'd like to find out where the Cabin is located on the island in respect to where the statue is, for the purpose of tracking Ilana's group's trek from Hydra to cabin to statue. I might look around for some info on that."

I suspect that might be a waste of time, because the producers play very fast and loose with the geography of the Island.

There's a number of examples, but the most glaring one is the distance of the statue from the camp. In the Season 5 finale, it's within walking distance from the beach camp, but in the Season 2 finale it's all the way on the other side of the Island.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Jacob's cabin didn't necessarily mean that Jacob was inside it. Could mean that Jacob's cabin meant "a cabin that belongs to Jacob so that he could imprison MIB." Maybe Horace simply built another cabin. There are 3 cabins on the mural. Horace's, Jacob's, and the version Hurley saw. Maybe so? I bring Horace into it because it sure seems like Jacob waited a long time to imprison MIB if the ash was from the statue (plus if the statue was destroyed in BR times). I suppose this could be explained by the fact that Jacob needed another body/person to build the cabin, and Horace was the first one to come along.

Big, I had forgotten that Mikhael had mentioned a list to Sayid and Kate were not on a list. Including Jack, that leaves Sawyer and Hurley. Hmmn. What do we make of that? Hurley to see the cabin, Sawyer...?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: where the cabin is, everything near Hydra seems to be the Dark Territory, and if Ilana's group walked around the crater, past the beach camp and (as the 07ers did) still approach the plinth from the wrong direction, that's a long way around. There might be one of the tunnels that could be used to cross the Island (at least by Ilana's group), because it seems that every time we've seen the cabin it's been nowhere near the side of the Island that Hydra is on. Plus, if Hurley sees it, even in the wrong place, its between the Pala Ferry and the Beach Camp.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thunderstorm, going by what you said, my guess is Sawyer. As per the two different lists.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And it is true that the geography on the Island changes. Rousseau's map puts the cable to the Looking Glass where Hydra is. The most recent error, which Capcom first pointed out awhile back, is that they go from the beach camp to the plinth but arrive at the plinth from the wrong direction (if they are on the same side of the Island). I suppose that, even though we've never seen it as viewers, the Island could become less wide somewhere in the center, but I've always thought of the Statue as near the north side of the Island, opposite the dark territory. (Actually, close to the science team's camp, fairly near the Temple.) Moreso once we saw the Black Rock, as I doubt the ship sailed all around the Island to come ashore. (Yes, it was in the dark territory, so there goes my last thought.)

Of the list of things to get answered, geography is down at the bottom, I'll bet.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Last post for now, mainly I'm saying that it seemed awful quick for MIB Locke, Sun, etc., walk across the shoreline of half the Island, never mind how tiring it would be.

annebeth said...

" Capcom said...
Intersting ideas! I especially like the thoughts about Ben's loss of innocence and Jacob's distance from him. "


Agreed!

Another fact that supports the theory that it's not at all Jacobs Cabin, is that Damon and Carlton said at Comic Con that Jacob never appeared as someone else. So Christian in the Cabin is the Man in Black/Cerberus, not Jacob :)

I was wondering: when Hurley spotted the Men in Black and Cerberus in the cabin, who was which? Was the Man in Black allreasy Christian, or was that the smoke monster and was the man in black the face with the brown eye? Just curious, what do you think, bigmouth?

And another few questions:
-who broke the ashline the first instance? (so that the Cabin could hop to another place and he could meet Smokey?)
-who made the ashline whole again (which must have happened, or else the MiB wasn't trapped out)?

Greg Tramel said...

"This leaves me 100% convinced that Jacobs death will suck or SKIP the people he touched back to 07"

annebeth said...

" I think Jacob tapped Ilana to lead the dangerous mission of hand delivering the corpse in a box to help the Man in Black escape. "

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that, because how could Jacob now that Locke would be dead? He can't see the future, right? I agree with Neoloki: " Iliana was bringing the body of Locke to show Jacob in order to warn Jacob what has happened and who to be wary of."

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Good points, annabeth. By the way, Tarawet is also the goddess of the northern sky. On Lostpedia, it seems as if the remaining part of the statue is seen as Sayid, Sun, and Jin are traveling north, if they were on the opposite side of the Island, the statue would be on the other side of Desmond's boat. I suppose the messed up geography justs allow for more dramtic scenes, and the average viewer doesn't really care too much to map the place.

Rousseau's translated map is amusing where she makes a point of saying there's a place on the coast that has a large abundance of coconuts. Just a funny oberservation to put on a map.

Karmavore said...

I second Capcom. It was effectively Nemesis's cabin/prison. Jacob spent no time there that we were aware of. Just my guess, of course.

My take on the cabin changing locations is that it is like the picture frames, or even the whole island itself. It moves on the ripples of timeline changes.

My take on Jacob's List is that it contains the people who are there to help Jacob at some critical on-Island moment we have not yet seen. This list then somehow falls back through time, where the Others use it to determine who to recruit to the Island. Jack and co. aren't on the list because, as Richard says, they're going to die.

I think Jacob traveled through both space AND time to visit the Oceanic 6 as youngsters. He did this at some point in time *after* he was killed. So, when MIB finds the loophole, Jacob can't do his visits, and they don't come to the Island. In Season 6, we'll see what the castaways' lives would have been like had they not been visted by Jacob (i.e., from that time point on, or in Hurley's case, from 815 on) and crashed on the Island. It will be very touching, and the mythology will be secondary.

As long as we're in wackadoo territory, I think we'll find time to be a mobius strip, and the alternate timeline castaways will find a way to make sure that their doppelgangers never detonate Jughead. Perhaps they keep Juliet from ever being recruited by Mittelos?

Capcom said...

Heheh, good point about the knife Neoloki!

Thunderstorm, if Jacob puts Kate in charge, I protest! Haha.

I agree 3D, that TPTB seem to have been very ambiguous about the island geography. But I'd like to at least be able to narrow it down to the northern or southern half of the island. I've seen a fan map that puts it in the extreme south, and that just doesn't make sense to me, it's seemed farther north in all but Hurley's experience. I can't really say where it could be when Hurley saw it. Agreed about the beach/statue location as well. Sayid, Jin, and Sun sailed north to the fake Door camp and saw the statue, and then Flocke and company did what Wayne just said. Most fans feel that the statue is mid to upper north on the West side of the island (where north would be in the direction of DI-ville). And like Wayne also said, near the B612 camp. I just think that it would be REALLY nice of TPTB to finally give us some kind of map of the island for once and for all so we could get this stuff straightened out in our heads.

Interesting site Greg.

About the lists, we don't know for sure yet that sometimes the Hostiles weren't talking to MIB and not Jacob, but thought that they were talking to Jacob, so there might have been some fake lists that they assumed were from Jacob, but were from MIB. And if Ben was talking to MIB and thought it was Jacob, not surpising that MIB wouldn't say anything to him in that case. I think I understand what I just wrote, heheh. Not hanging any hopes on that theory, I'm just sayin'.

Right, coconuts, will that question be answered TPTB?! And I'm in the camp that Claire scuffed the ash ring aside perhaps. And yay for Mobius strip space!

Greg Tramel said...

i need to mullover this post a bit but don't forget the relief carving of dog-headed Anubis feeding the smoke monster INCLUDES Vincent or at least a fascimili

Vincent, The Smoke Monster & Anubis

Greg Tramel said...

Kate aka Dingbat in charge?, GOD HELP US ALL

neoloki said...

Capcom,

You might have seen this site already, but I will post it just in case you haven't. E collection of different maps by a few people. The person yung23 did some extensive research from the available data. click on his image.

http://lostmap.blogspot.com/

Greg Tramel said...

i'm trying to wrap my head around why Richard would have taken Ben to MiB's cabin and tell him it was Jacob's cabin

i mean we did not actually see this but how else would Ben know where it was and think it was Jacob's cabin

i suppose it's possible Ben also knew it was MiB's cabin instead of Jacobs but that seems unlikely

Greg Tramel said...

part of the reason i ask is because i see Richard as being kinda like a genie, you summon him and he appears and he does what you ask and can't really say no but maybe this idea is wackadoo

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@neoloki, yung23 has by far made the best series of maps for the Island, and I tend to think of his before even considering different maps (Rousseau's, etc.) we've seen on the show. It may just seem convenient to place everything in the south, near the Swan and the beach camp, and place the Flame and Staff closer to the Barracks because of their needs for the DI. (Of course, no map is completely to scale.)

Don't know if there's any clues there, but there is a Whispers transcript for when Hurley was near the cabin.

If the cabin is the one Horace built, which could be a possibility, if one thinks that Jacob put the thought in his head, I don't think that Horace would have gone too far off the grid into Hostile territory. I'd think maybe Jacob would want it close (enough) to the statue so that he could check on MIB himself, because obviously Ben wasn't going to the statue to get lists, he was going to the cabin, or to Richard, who is the one I think he got actual lists from, MIB might have been screwing with Ben's mind a bit more at the cabin.

Karmavore, just to toss it out there, if Jacob did travel through space/time, do you think that he is "trapped" (really the wrong word, maybe "restrained") by needing to be in the vicinity of the Statue? Hence Richard bringing everyone to him, or Richard as the go-between with the lists he gives Ben?

Capcom, it was you who first brought up the reverse walk towards the statue, and I really didn't think of that, so that's really your catch. And I can easily see the science team missing out on the fragment of the statue considering how bad the rain was coming down. Realy, the main thing that keeps me thinking so much of the mythology stuff is north and west is due to what happened to the science team, Robert calling the monster a security system (still the damnedest phrase on the show, to me). Seems like there's a lot in the area of the French camp that needed protection.

I'm hoping yung23 continues to update his maps.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg, that sure looks like Vincent in the link, more the painting of Vincent in the cabin (the angle of the dog's head).

Greg Tramel said...

'Lost': Landing on a jet plane, Part 1

'Lost': Landing on a jet plane, Part 2

Greg Tramel said...

yep, i'm glad Big pulled in 1 of the dog paintings into the mix, those have had me stumped all along

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I think the dog painting in the cabin is bizarre, but what about all those jars of different colored liquids in the window? I don't read many other blogs, but has anyone ever brought that gunk up? I'm sure there's other stuff in the cabin, too.

Greg Tramel said...

actually i theorized that the jars/liquids made me think of voodoo

Capcom said...

Here's a thought, Ben took Locke to MIB's cabin but told him it was Jacob's, cuz Ben knew that MIB would act crazazy and that he'd scare Locke away from wanting to see Jacob more. Nahhh.

I have seen that site Neoloki, thanks! I love Yung23's work, but I wish that he would spend some time labelling it with all the critical hot spots of activity. I think that I'd trust his(?) judgement on the locations more than most, his work is very analytical.

Wayne I totally agree about the cabin being close to DI-ville, and great idea that Horace would not want to stray into tabu-land. I guess I was the first one to mention their odd beach travel here, I don't know if I saw it anywhere else but us discussing it here at Big's. I'm sure someone else must have noticed too though.

Maybe Robert didn't know the French term for Cerberus, heheh.

Hey, that looks more like Scoobydoo than Vincent! :-D

Yes, the jars. Makes me think of Silence of the Lambs.

Greg Tramel said...

i rewatched the Oceanic commercial

30 years with a perfect safety record since 1979

so i'm all ears if y'all have a different option OTHER than somewhere/when there is a 1979 -2009 tangent timeline without an Oceanic crash

Greg Tramel said...

capcom, i think it is a still a MAJOR question about how much Ben actually knows vs how much he thinks he knows

but generally my gut feeling is Ben doesn't know anything about MiB and up until this post by Big i've had a hunch Richard did not know anything about MiB

BUT logically i suppose it would be nearly impossible for Richard to not know about MiB

Capcom said...

It's got to be something like that Greg, right? TPTB have put out the option with that video, and set it up with the incidentsplosion reset idea, the only thing we don't know is how TPTB are going to present this different facet of time in their own way. T-minus 5 months and counting till we find out?

:o)

Capcom said...

I agree about Ben, he seems to be totally clueless as to Jacob vs MIB. Even though he was pointman for the Others as far as their projects after Wid left, in the end he didn't really seem to have all the answers or knowledge.

Greg Tramel said...

but Ben THINKS he knows EVERYTHING

yeah, January seems way too far away so i'm gonna try the new show Defying Gravity over the weekend if it is still around

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg, neoloki and I discussed this today on the last post, but I think the Oceanic video can be dismissed, unless we see it as the tangent universe Jack wanted/created. I'd center on Hurley and Kate, Locke once said "You make your own luck" and we see Hurley changing and Kate being Kate. Obviously, for the other two videos to happen, 815 needs to reach LA, but I don't think it will stay that way. So I'm kinda dismissing the O. video on the basis that we won't see that in S6, just as we didn't see Faraday's pinhole or the time jumping rabbits. Hurley & Kate are the tangents.

Greg, I honestly never knew what to make of the jars in the cabin, past it being plasma or something. Extracts from the fruits and trees, I dunno.

Capcom, I was looking over the map pages, and I know some are from 2007 (not yung23, who does update a lot), but it seems as if almost everybody has the tail section landing on the opposite shore than the Arrow. I guess because the cockpit lands further in towards the dark territory. I always kinda assumed the middle section pancaked and the tail section went in at an angle. We now know that the Arrow was (assumedly) closer to the Barracks, and Goodwin made it to the crash site in an hour. Could the tail section have crashed north and west? The tail sank, they abandoned camp...maybe they started into the jungle before they could see the statue, I dunno.

And, yeah, Capcom. Any number of valid reasons (even the French simply using a more formal term). But still, why would Rousseau keep saying that after all those years. I was even playing with Temporal Security System for awhile in the spring, because its been bugging me. Remember: they were the only ones saying it and they were the only one sucked into that hole. Its like they were told something telepathically or whatever.

Again, I'm not against anyone's thoughts on the Oceanic video, I'm just saying (to me) its the Hurley & Kate (which may actually represent other characters, too) that hints at S6.

Looking fwd to Big's follow-up and more comments. By the way, I will be attending that Zap2It LOST event here on 9/18 and I'll send anyone the whole sordid details, or I'll tell Big and he can post the info here, just not in comments form. My email is jonalgiers@aol.com should anyone want the direct email re: the LOST thing, but if Big OKs it I'll just send him a long email and he can post it as is. Play it by ear.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg & Capcom, intersecting post again, I don't think Richard knew about MIB but I will bet he did/does know about the smoke monster.

neoloki said...

Actually, by the time Follow the Leader was aired I was convinced Ben knows far less than we ever would have thought in the beginning of his character. Now, he has been a pawn in a very similar manner as Locke. Ben is just a lot more cunning. As far as Richard goes, I will be quite surprised if we find out he doesn't know about MIB. He has been the main contact with Jacob for at least a century could be quite a bit more. It would be impossible for him not to know about the smoke monster. After watching FTL and The Incident a couple of times I think Richard was on to the fact that Locke wasn't Locke. Richard is continually staring at Locke and asking him questions. They seemed to be fairly probing questions.

It is late here and I am not articulating my thoughts very well, but I am sure you get what I am pointing to.

The Oceanic video...I haven't got a clue.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@neoloki, you're correct re how much more knowing Ben seemed several seasons ago. It was the same with Richard; I felt as if this past season he was suddenly acting addled but then we saw where MIB Locke has him give Live Locke the compass, and that blew everyone's bubble on how/when Richard and Locke would meet again. He wasn't all-knowing after all.

About the time that the Ben & Locke scenario needed change was when Richard gave Locke the folder on Sawyer. That's when I became sure about Ben's lack of true leadership.

neoloki, I do see Richard being much more forward with MIB Locke, and its a tell that the first time Alpert loses his composure (or whatever) is when MIB wants Ben to enter the plinth. He knew he'd made a mistake. This goes back to when Big first suggested that MIB could not kill Jacob or vice versa. The loophole really wasn't the copy of Locke, but letting Ben go all stabbity-stab, to use one of Capcom's pet phrases. This was foreshadowed when Ben killed Keamey, not carrying less about the people on the Kahana. Sadly, I've worked for people like Ben in real life.

Anonymous said...

I read this site often because I find the speculation to be more interesting and intelligent than other sites I’ve browsed. Ilana and company said they needed Locke’s body to demonstrate who/what they were dealing with (someone/thing scarier than what’s inside the box). I took this to mean to show to any doubters that Locke is not really Locke. Since MIB was able to become Fake Locke without Ilana delivering the box to him I’m having trouble accepting your premise that Jacob enlisted Ilana to secure MIB’s loophool. Also – and although minor - worth mentioning….don’t you think that any ash created by the statue would have been so much more than was shown surrounding the cabin?
Anonymous LostNut

neoloki said...

I never assumed Richard was all-knowing, but I can guarantee he knows more than any other mortal on the Island. As far as being addled, I am sure most demi-gods can have that effect on people, even if you don't age. I am still reasonably convinced that Richard knew Locke wasn't Locke, but we will see how it plays out. I also think it is a reasonable guess that Richard knows of MIB existence. Richard is Jacob's conduit on the Island or gate keeper. I wonder if Richard ever had a choice about whether to take Locke to see Jacob. I mean he kept Ben from seeing him for decades, and you know Ben doesn't take no easily. It almost leads me to believe Jacob was expecting MIB's arrival and knew MIB found a loophole through Locke. Jacob told Richard to bring him when he showed up. Whether Richard knew the whole scenario or not Richard still had a choice, after he found out that Locke was bringing Ben into Jacobs lair, to open the door or not. I am guessing he had a good idea.

Capcom said...

Greg, do watch Defying Gravity! It's got potential, and even though its main subject seems to be sex (and the possibility of some scenarios like the diaper-wearing-jilted-astronaut who's name escapes me) it's got some qualities and mysteries similar to Lost. Also FBs. Here is one blog covering it that I found, and I'll post a couple more after I pick up my nephew from school: link I think that you can catch up at Hulu.

Right Wayne, I don't understand the placement of the Tailies on some maps either. From the pull-back shot that TPTB gave us over Otherville, it looked as if the two sections went down on the same side of the island, one north shore and one south. I agree about your thoughts on the Security term.

For sure, Ben think he knows everything, and it seems that he was being allowed to think that. But as S5 evolved, it looked like he realized exactly how clueless he really was.

Heheh, I stole stabbity-stab from DJ, I think, I loved that. X-D

You're doing great Neoloki!

Welcome LostNut! The popups said that it was volcanic ash around the cabin, but we are not sure if that comes from TPTB or ABC interns, LOL.

neoloki said...

I am re-watching Through the Looking Glass and it gives the viewer a very acute sense of Ben's lies and how far he will go to save his own skin. For four seasons we knew Ben was a manipulator, but we were not sure how far his lies extended. Now that we know Ben never talked to Jacob and his connection to the Island is suspect at best, listening to Ben talk to Mikhail from the Looking Glass station and telling Mikhail that the Island told him to Jam the signal and Jacob to lie to his people, Ben sounds like a very desperate man grasping to his last strings of leadership.

Maybe this was fairly obvious at first watch, but there definitely is a new dimension to the lies in retrospect.

Capcom said...

You're right Neoloki, in Behind the Curtain Ben was shown to be very desparate, but little did we know earlier how much he really was. Someday when I get all my Lost DVDs back from relatives who are catching up, I'll get to rewatch some old eps for hindsight details like that.

Capcom said...

OT: Greg, here's some more DG reviews to follow to catch up: link and link

BTW, in case anyone is maybe interested in purchasing one of the limited edition Lost posters being released, it seems that the world outside of Lost fandom has discovered what's going on there, and might interfere with fans getting first dibs at the Lost collectibles meant for the fans by TPTB. So if you are remotely interested in getting one that might appeal to you, be sure to follow the news at LostARGs.com, and get your chance before the Ebay grubs snatch them all up for resale. You don't have to participate in the gaming, I don't, I just follow it for when the next painting is released and I bought the second poster. Just sayin'.

neoloki said...

Thanks for the advice, Capcom, on the posters. Been thinking I might wait to see the Desmond, Richard or Jacob poster.

Still wondering who programmed the Looking Glass jamming device. Seems too convenient for Charlie to be there. First thought on watching, back when it aired, was that Charlie himself programmed Good Vibrations.

Capcom said...

Someone at LostARGs just wondered if the next one might be a Smokie poster due to the clues, that would be sweet. Well, I just did a bunch of Christmas shopping, so my VISA is tapped out this month including the Locke poster. I would really like a Des poster too, depending on the artwork. I can see him in sort of a "Mac Cleod, Highlander" type scenario for one, heheh. I'd bet that one of the artists might make some kind of Egyptian motif. If there's a Jacob poster, that's going to burn up the internet getting bought up quickly!

3D said...

Blogger Wayne Allen Sallee said...

"On Lostpedia, it seems as if the remaining part of the statue is seen as Sayid, Sun, and Jin are traveling north, if they were on the opposite side of the Island, the statue would be on the other side of Desmond's boat. I suppose the messed up geography justs allow for more dramtic scenes, and the average viewer doesn't really care too much to map the place."

For most of the errors, I agree with you. Although, it wouldn't be too hard to present those same dramatic scenes in a more creative way to be consistent with the geography they set up in the first place.

But on the statue issue, I think the "errors" are so glaring that they have to be intentional. Not only is it way far away from where it's supposed to be, but it's a mirror image of the earlier version.

I have a feeling there are two statues in different places.

lostmio said...

Wayne Two puzzle pieces I've always tried to fit together, but not sure they work: Those jars of liquid in cabin, and the blood they took from Michael, Jack, Sawyer, and Kate.

Bigmouth I'm just gobsmacked at how well this theory fits what we've seen and ties up some dangling loose mysteries. I especially like your spec that Jacob deliberately left off the names of his most important players off the list.
And kudos the plausible explanation for the whole Claire disappearance. Remember the opening scene of that episode? The Risk game with the engimatic phrase "Australia is the key to the game"? Claire's the only Aussie on the island, far as we know, right?

Lots of treasure to plunder here, in your theory and in the responses.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: Ben and Richard. When Paolo overhears Ben & Juliet in the Pearl, you get pretty much Ben's best off-the-cuff line, when he tells Juliet about how he intends to exploit Jack, etc. Ben started getting desperate when Locke showed up at camp, certainly, even moreso when Locke "killed" Anthony Cooper. I think Juliet's defection added to the mess. Locke stole the cassette tape from under Ben's nose. When I watched Looking Glass the second time, I could see how Ben was lying just about 100% of the time, and was surprised he wasn't sweating all the time.

The only time I found Richard "all-knowing" was when he told Locke that the next time they met they would be strangers. And we saw how wrong that was. Yesterday I had meant to differentiate between MIB and Smokey, as some think they are two different entities, while others don't (I'm up in the air). So when I sd Richard is aware of Smokey but maybe not MIB, I meant that to him, MIB might be Smokey, he doesn't know of the three entities Jacob, MIB, and the Smoke Monster. Richard would have to know of Smoky from being in the tunnels.

That is an interesting thought about there being two statues, as there are duplicates of so many things on the show. It would be a neat reveal in S6, the exact opposite seems to put anything in the dark territory.

Capcom, I think in that barracks scene, people assume from the trails of smoke the locations of the crash. I've read of water break-ups where the tail is often found further along the flight path than the front of the plane, because it is lighter, there is no cargo hold there. But it is an easy thing to not be aware of.

lostmio said...

Bigmouth said "Claire eventually realized the truth and resisted her captor, making the mess that Ilana finds at the Cabin."

Small S6 spoiler ahead re Claire:






I was intrigued when, earlier this summer, Darlton said they're not only excited about Claire's return but about *how* she will return. I'd love to see a scene where Claire come to her senses, trashes the cabin (we know she's got a temper), and heads into the jungle... to find whom? when?
I think the 'whom' will ultimately be the Ajira's, but will she have other encounters first? It all depends upon how long it took her to come to her senses.

lostmio said...

Anonymous said "Since MIB was able to become Fake Locke without Ilana delivering the box to him I’m having trouble accepting your premise that Jacob enlisted Ilana to secure MIB’s loophole."

I tend to agree with you, this is the one part of BM's theory that I'm not on board with.
Ilana's 'favor' for Jacob was to get Sayid onto the plane, to assemble her team and to lead them.
My best guess on why they went to the cabin was because they suspected Fake Locke was MIB (more or less) and they went to the cabin to verify MIB had escaped.
Then, regardless of what they found, they planned to go looking for Ricardus.

Perhaps they would have eventually headed for the Foot and Jacob even if they hadn't found the fragment, but based upon their earlier words and actions, I think their goal was to find Ricardus and his people, their allies for the battle to come. They needed Locke's body to prove to them that Fake Locke is MIB.

lostmio said...

D'oh, I just realized that Capcom pretty much presented the same 'Ilana's mission' theory in the 2nd post in this thread.
Yeah, works for me.

lostmio said...

Wayne said "That is an interesting thought about there being two statues, as there are duplicates of so many things on the show. It would be a neat reveal in S6, the exact opposite seems to put anything in the dark territory."

YES! My island-as-mirror-matter theory is alive and well. It's always been for me more a thematic-based theory than a science-based one. I've got roughly the same science background as the Lost writing team.

Capcom said...

Re: Ben's lies and sweating, it reminds of that scene in Total Recall where Quaid notices the bead of sweat rolling down the bad guy's forehead, which tells Quaid that he's lying. Yes, too bad Ben doesn't sweat when he lies, it would be so simple for us!

I did love the way Richard marched into DI-ville and stabbed the earth with the torch, and when he clocked Keamy. But yes, other than that, Richard seems pretty docile and childlike most of the time. And except for when he got mad at Little Locke for chosing the knife.

Right, that's what I mean, to me it looked like the contrails trailed off for north and south along the west side of the island, compared to where the camera showed Otherville. ???

Lostmio, I like the way that you put it better, and I just copy/pasted what someone posted at Lostpedia.

Totally looking forward to some wrap-up on the Claire issues!

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom

"It's talking to her again"

Capcom said...

Wait, what??

lostmio said...

Capcom said "I did love the way Richard marched into DI-ville and stabbed the earth with the torch"

It was such a Jeff Probst thing that it had to have been done deliberately, and it took me out of the moment.
I loved it in a campy kinda way.
To me, everything about Alpert is campy. I don't get the guru thing everyone else sees in him.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

If I was Claire, the first thing I'd be doing is thrashing around the cabin looking for Aaron.

I checked out that map at the LOSTmap.blogspot per neleoki, and it puts a lot of S5 locations on the grid. It kinda makes sense that Hydra would need to be where it's placed on the map, probably the first time I've seen it done, near the science team's camp. I'd shift the Staff with the Orchid because of the proximity to the Temple, but that's me. And Tarawet is right there. I couldn't look at it before tonight because of the computer problems I seem to have every other week.

Capcom, true, Richard took care of Keamy and I do like the way he rolls up his sleeves and carries that torch. He is great at protecting his people, and once he suspected Ben of having his own agenda, he approached Locke re: Sawyer' folder. Juliet's defection likely pushed Ben's rationality into the big nowhere because he and she were kinda sorta a team in S3, I again bring up the Nikki/Paulo episode where both B & J are in the Pearl together.

Capcom, I don't know what Greg's saying, either. Sounds like any given fragment of conversation on the el trains here. :)

Capcom said...

LOL Lostmio, well that's another good reason why I don't watch Survivor, heheh. Not to slight anyone who does, of course, it's just not for me, altho I did follow old Rudy-the-ex-SEAL in the end of that season. I didn't watch the first few eps of Lost because I thought that it was going to be just a ripoff of the Survivor idea. :-o So I was very grateful for the reruns in season 1, it allowed me to catch up.

I think that Richard's quiet resolve (and all-knowing Buddha smile)in the beginning made him seem guru-ish. But as things progressed, he began to sort of look a bit clueless to me.

Right Wayne, about Claire, she looked all doped up in the cabin there. What about the Bye-bee?! Maybe there's moonshine-wine in them there bottles!

Yes, I have come to agree with the Hydra being on that shore too since the B612 ep. At first we thought that it was that little chunk south-east of the island near the crater, but since we now know where their camp was, the other chunk up there makes more sense. Still curious as to why she named that lower islet "Alex".

The relationship between Juliet and Ben is one of the many good things to rewatch now that we know "everything" about their relationship, ever since they were presented as a sort of management tag-team in S3 while Jack was incarcerated. That's a good point about how losing Juliet helped push him over the edge.

FYI in case y'all didn't hear, that DJ AM guy who hosted the club event for the release of the first Lost poster was found dead yesterday. :-(

Capcom said...

P.S. TPTB are sending out special free items to the first person to purchase a new poster. So far: first was a print of the DCAAPB painting, and second was the engraved DI skateboard deck. Are these guys neat or what? There really are actually some nice peeps in Hollywood, whoodathunk?

neoloki said...

I usually agree with most of your comments (Capcom, Wayne, Greg) or at least appreciate the direction of thought, but I am having a hard time with you alls approach towards Richard. Ok, Richard is not all-knowing. He is a mortal who was granted a gift by Jacob (assumption). The man, however, has been on the Island for centuries (guess; Black Rock?) and is Jacob's conduit. His knowledge therefore has to be extensive. He knows of the Smoke Monster and what it is. As far MIB goes that is debatable, but given his relationship with Jacob and the fact that MIB does seem to be roaming the Island freely when the Black Rock arrived and his longevity, I am guessing yes.

The actors are not given the history of there characters and have to play them flat, at least, I see this as Nestor's approach. Given this limitation, I try not to read into Alpert's looks or specific reactions too much, but clueless? No. Yes, I believe he knew Locke was Not-Locke, by his reactions to him, however interpreting knowledge or lack of it in his character his iffy. Even though he possibly knows all the Islands secrets, it does not put him beyond the ability to be surprised or shocked. Richard's job as we know it now is to protect the Island leaders, intermediary between Jacob and The Others and as a Panchen Lama. He also takes the place of the leader if one has not been found yet or is maturing. In this regard I see his role as passive (unless he is the current leader. thus his assertiveness at DI with torch) and referential. This, however, does not make him week, docile, oblivious or callow.

Maybe I am reading into the comments too much because I am getting this all or nothing approach to the character.

neoloki said...

Maybe passive is not the right word to use with Richard, but he definitely steps aside when The Other have a leader.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@neoloki, I agree with you completely re: Richard, but I'm the one who used the word addled back during S5. Maybe its how the viewers are supposed to think, to be surprised at another character being different than expected, but during the time flashes, Richard just seemed more...awkward. That's not even the right word. He seems to not grasp LeFleur's sit-down until Jughead is mentioned. More to the point, he was addled (this is from my original usage) when Faraday shows up in 1977 and how RA talks to Eloise after.

Its a continuation of the character, he was all mysterious from the time we saw him talking to young Ben when he was wearing pirate-y clothes. But now he seems to be more of a guy doing his best just to take care of a bunch of people. Seeing him off-Island is quite incredible, or in the moments after the Purge. But near the end of "The Incident," when he's talking with MIB Locke it really did remind me of his talking with Eloise back in 1977.

Its been aggravating waiting this long for a Richard-centric episode to clear this up. My main point going back to the middle of S5 was that he just wasn't the same guy who was ALWAYS confident. Over the years, most of the speculation about Alpert seemed to be towards his agelessness and/or manner of dress. I don't see him as docile, I just see him different as S5 moves on. I know using the word different is vague, but there's no other way to put it for now.

neoloki said...

wayne

agreed

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

So, for me its not been 'all or nothing,' more, 'why the change?'

Maybe its that we've seen him in various ways over decades with not nearly as much screen time as he'll hopefully get in S6.

neoloki said...

uhmm...does anybody here read spoilers? there is some rather interesting information on Darks site about one of the first scenes being filmed. And no it doesn't involve the 77ers, but outside the statue.

neoloki said...

Richard is probably my favorite character on Lost, so maybe I was being a bit of a Fan boy, LOL. A forty year old fan boy!? Ok, I am going to bang my head against the wall and get my head straight. hahahaha

neoloki said...

First scene between richard and not-locke. shit!

sorry I won't do this again, but damn. I wish this could be discussed.

http://www.hawaiiweblog.com/

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Really don't read the spoilers, but at this this point, I think we could guess on a few scenes re: Richard. DarkUFO is a place I do not visit much because of their spoiler glee, in fact several blogs are just that, and it kinda sucks to know the opening scene of a coming season. Last spring, someone posted what might be the final scene description AND THEN the link itself. Granted, the last scene is a ways away and any number of scenarios can be dodges, but to give away something (it involved whys and whats...maybe) and then say the link in the same sentence (not you, neleoki) was just plain nuts. The post really did read frantic, like someone wanted to be the first to get the word out.

Seeing what we have left for S6, there would have to be some indication of Richard and, well, lots of people, since we will get the centric episode.

I'll avoid the link, though. Until temptation gets the better of me, which might be weeks from now. Not my blog to complain, and I know I'm in the minority re: people reading multiple blogs/news sources/ etc.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: discussion, that will be inevitable, but myself, I'll email in private to more than a few people here. Not spoilers, more information and speculations in general, that might not be germaine to EMS at the moment.

I'm glad I made more sense re: Richard as we talked more, neleoki. Between the time with LeFleur and the time with Faraday, Alpert seemed in a bit of a downward spiral. One might have said that it was the time flashes and the years involved, yet prior to that we saw Richard as quite competent. I think a great part of that is if we think on the fact that Widmore might have been an "iffy" leader by the 70s and Richard had a lot more on his mind. (I'd say that it was in the 70s that Widmore started leaving the Island, which ties in with him funding Mittelos, which would then also be a factor in occupying RA's mind.)

Capcom said...

Well put Wayne, in your notes on RA, I agree and defer to your character analysis, instead of repeating myself (or you). :o) I've always like RA, and was very disappointed when NC's other new series began, and not that I wanted someone else's project to fail, but I really wanted RA back in the show. The storyline and script of "Cane" kind of faultered anyway, so Lost fans won that one, yay. I also feel that TPTB have rather been purposefully tricking us in what we are supposed to feel about RA, as you said Wayne.

I'm kind of cautious about spoilers, but I will allow myself to see a few within reason. E.g., I don't mind knowing the title or how an ep might begin, but I don't want to know significant events that are going to happen to a character. Unless Kate was gonna die, heehee. I have to say, it really surprised me that TPTB told us about the fake 815 wreckage in a hiauts game first, so that when it happened in the show it was a non-event -- for me anyway.

Capcom said...

Oh no! I just read that link you gave Neoloki! :-o

Not saying anything Wayne. :o)

beer said...

haha, interesting and creative speculation, but there's really no way it's true. indeed the question of why illanabram went to the cabin is a confusing one, similarly the question of why ben would go to the same cabin to see jacob, who he'd apparently never seen or known to exist. i mean, the whole deal with the cabin is a mountain of mystery, but i think all our best attempts will simply innacurate because we've only a few bits and pieces of the puzzle. sure, we can see the hand there, and part of the hair, so we know it's probably a woman, but who is she? we can't find that out until we reveal the face and body. if you get my meaning.

also, the ghosts we've seen (christian, the strange eye man, alex, sometimes walt, and claire) are the island/smokey, not the man in black, nor jacob. but the island and the man in black are in cohorts (cerbers, aka smokey, being the eye of the island, the man in black being its hand).

and lastly, i think the most logical explanation for taweret being wiped out would be the volcano. either that, or the incident, if indeed the bomb went off. but if the bomb did go off, why is the area not still in fallout? forests don't just regrow in a matter of decades, or even centuries. it would have destroyed about the entire island. so we have to assume the bomb didn't go off, or at least didn't have any effect.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, Capcom, wasn't CAIN the show Jimmy Smits starred in? I suspected Nestor Carbonell had taken that role to try and boost ratings. I think he is a much underrated actor for serious roles. Emerson, Mitchell, and he are the ones who will get the bigger roles after LOST is said and done.

That's my point about checking the link as you did, Capcom. I'm not going to look, and if there's anything to be discussed, well, just tell everyone where to look. I effectively now know about the opening scene and final scene to S6, which frustrates me to no end.

Not to split hairs, but this blog is really about discussion and friendly arguments. And how can anything be discussed without it being seen/watched/read etc. FIRST? A few months back, someone popped up here asking, oh, can we post spoilers here? Aren't there enough spoiler blogs out there? Its different with the con videos, because they can mean a little bit or a lot, but nothing is ever flat out given as 100% truth.

I'm just old and cranky. It is Big's blog, though, I should maybe just stay away from it until after S6 starts, there should be discussion (or what-have-you) of any number of things here. Big, if you are checking up on the blog, get back to me when you can about our joint project. No real news from my agent, but I need to bounce an angle off of you.

Capcom said...

You're correct about Smits, but it was "Cane", as the family grew sugar cane and made rum. Now there's a family business! It quickly degraded into "Dynasty" almost tho, so not surprised that it didn't make it long on the air. NC's role was actually beneath his talents, IMO, he was basically just a whiney misfit brother, sort of like Fredo to Michael Corleone, but not sleazy like Fredo.

Yeah, I'd prefer that we don't discuss spoilers as a rule here and mostly stick with an exchange of theories and ideas. But since Big hasn't made any official rules yet, like TLC has.....so I didn't mind taking the hit for you by checking that site. :o) I didn't say "oh no" for seeing it, I was just surprised by what it said. And with that, 'nuff said about it!!

BTW, at TLC, one of the spoiler rules is that if you are going to post something that someone might think is spoilery, you give a SPOILER WARNING, and line-down about ten lines, type the spoilery thing, and then line-down again for another 10 and type SPOILER OFF. That way if someone doesn't want to see even the slightest spoiler, they can skip down to the spoiler-off label and be safe. I think that might be a good rule of thumb here too. What do you think?

neoloki said...

Ok. Thanks for everyone's patience and understanding. I might have waited to see opinions before I posted the link, but as intelligent adults I figured you would be able to decide whether to follow it or not. I will not be including any spoiler talk into my ideas or our discussions, out of respect to you excellent folks and the fact that no reasonable idea can be focused until you see the subject matter in context. Thank you again, Wayne and Capcom for your patience.

The link I posted does not describe an opening scene, just a scene and is really incidental information. I am curious though Wayne, you said you know the opening scene and closing scene from season 6? Did I read that right? Under no circumstance do I want to know that information, but I am curious as how you came by it and why you chose to listen to it.

I am not a big spoiler buff and during the season I stay away from a lot of the comment sections especially on sites like Darks. However, tid-bits here and there I am open to and right now I am exceptionally curious about what direction they plan on taking so I will let myself be spoiled a bit.

Anyway, hope I didn't upset anyone and Capcom, lol! No spoilers.

neoloki said...

Wayne- just re-read your first post. So LAST SPRING you read a link that descibed the final scene of season 6? That is a long way out. Would seem hard to believe it would be legit.

Capcom said...

No prob, Neoloki, I don't click the spoiler links unless I want to take the chance, and for that one I decided that I wanted to. :-D

Capcom said...

P.S. I think that Wayne meant this past Spring.

neoloki said...

Widmore being an iffy leader. I wonder. Except for the scene where he wants been to kill Danielle and baby Alex much of the information is open to debate. At least on Island Widmore. Yeah, he did come off as a Jerk in '54, but he just seemed like a precocious kid. Much of his later actions could be justified depending on his motives. Most of the reason we have thought Widmore bad is because he was an manipulative ass towards Desmond, but again I think can be justified and much of the rest comes from Ben himself. Which we can pretty much discard at this point. I am completely open to accepting Widmore as actually "one of the good guys" at this point and his intentions towards Locke and getting him back to the Island alive could have been sincere. Keamy could have very well went off the depend and killed everyone on the Island, but was that Widmore's intention? Or was it as basic as getting Ben off the Island and the four freighter folk on the island. Abbadon was a great character and I am pissed they killed him off. I do believe he was "good" and he did work for Widmore.
(Rough thoughts)

neoloki said...

I wish there was an edit button under the posts. I need to proof read. Sorry.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Neoloki, someone posted a link that pretty much covers the final scene but they also described in detail exactly what it said on that site before listing the link, so that kind of leaves anyone reading without warning. It's not so much the last scene as such, more like when DarkUFO posted that entire spoiler about the flashfwd cliffhanger.

Bigmouth has never mentioned anything past, say, typing SPOILER WARNING, that's why I'm just going to stay away awhile. The way I read it you were describing the first scene filmed (as opposed to BEING filmed). Without seeing checking the link, I misread your post more than I should have. And I should assume that we will be seeing Richard interacting with a lot of characters, I jumped to the conclusion that they might be in cahoots or something. My apologies, neoloki. But, yeah, it was sometime this past June that the comment was made about that last scene.

Granted, the producers might throw out disinformation for people to pass on, as someone did here ahead of the episode in saying Juliet and Sawyer shoot young Ben, and I like that they do this. It's kind of like the ARGs, plus its neat to see who ends up passing along the half-fake info elsewhere.

Maybe there will be different angles to be had for leaked S6 info.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

and tell me about being able to fix typos. Read some of my comments from 2007. Man.

neoloki said...

My post was not a spoiler, but some would think the link is. Since Richard and Not-Locke spent the entire season finale together, I didn't think I gave anything away and with how minor the info was bringing it into a discussion here (if it was agreed upon) seemed relevant; but once you start, where do you stop. Seems better just to avoid it all together. Wayne, I hope you are not going to avoid the comment section because of my post. It would severely upset the balance of the discussion and your comments would be missed. Maybe Big can set something up so we can avoid that entirely. Like having a moderator.

It does seem though with last Monday being the first day of shooting, spoilers are going to start flowing across the internet and with this being the final season there is going to be A LOT of attention focused on Lost.

Actually, I am glad I brought this up because it seems like the right time to put in some preventative measures. A warning might suffice.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@neoloki (and everyone): first off, everything is cool, I'm the old guy in the room shaking his fist at the ubernet.

@neoloki, I did stop by and saw your earlier post, because I wanted to clarify that if someone says something before they add the link, there is no avoiding it. The first time I encountered a spoiler was about two days before the episode where Ana-Lucia kills Shannon, and that's when I stopped looking at other blogs on the subject. The reason I'm almost certain re: the events in the finale is because two people that love to leak very specific things have a direct relation to having knowledge of the show. They are not giving disinformation, and one of them just likes doing it because he is a supreme dick. I don't think Big needs to moderate comments, because its a rarity when the unmentionable fellow only pops up once or twice a year.

Hypothetically, you might come up with a comment that starts out...you know guys...what IF Richard met MIB and...etc. As long as its a vague spoiler, make into into a "crazy idea" thing. I'm joking a bit, yet for discussion's sake, why not? It would add to anything else we've got going here right now.

My point earlier about staying away from EMS for awhile (like the next post) was simply because I'm likely the only one against discussing anything that hasn't happened yet (not counting con videos or ARGs). I always saw EMS exactly this way, a discussion board, and its up to Bigmouth to say, Wayne, shut up and take your laudanum already.

And now that filming has started, there will be leaks, and I'll still avoid them. I shouldn't be talking like a crazy person here, and I do apologize, not just to you, neoloki, but to everyone.

Bigmouth said...

No harm done, but let's try to keep any spoiler references, including links, to posts with the word "SPOILER" in the title. I'm a spoiler hound personally, but I know many readers are more sensitive to being spoiled.

Greg Tramel said...

i think we need some comic relief

Lost: The Musical

ever get you speakers fixed wayne?, may be funny even without sound

Greg Tramel said...

we can make speculations about season 6 and read spoilers til our faces turn purple but i still have LOTS of questions about what we've seen so far in season 1-5

i've been wondering for awhile what was happening to The Others and DI while our Losties were skipping in islandtime because of the FDW off it's axis

where The Others protected from skipping because they were in the temple or where they skipping around as well? same years as the Losties?

i mean i see that when the Lostie interacted with any other island inhabitants they were all in the same "time"

i guess what i'm wondering is how the Others/Hostiles and DI were experiencing islandtime while our Losties were skipping through isalndtime

Greg Tramel said...

i'm wondering because i still think Richard knows quite about about everything including being at least aware of MiB

experiencing all the weird island stuff for so many years is bound to make anyone addled

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, DON'T STOP COMMENTING

i created a post to discuss spoilers at link below

i was spoiled about Sayid shooting Ben and it was kinda of a non-event to me so i understand and respect those that want to be spoiler free

for those that don't mind we can go here and keep Eye M Sick spoiler free(hope it's ok Big)

DON'T FOLLOW THIS LINK OR READ ANY COMMENTS UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE SPOILED

neoloki said...

here is an interesting comment by Carlton about Ajira and if it moved back in time. A lot of generalities here but it seems to be somewhere to jump from.

"They find themselves flashing from night to day. And it's all Frank Lapidus can do to safely land this airplane. They land on the island and four of them have disappeared. There's no Jack, there's no Kate, there's no Hurley, and there's no Sayid. So the plane lands on the island in the island's PRESENT, but these four characters appear on the island 30 years earlier."

Greg Tramel said...

hmm, i guess TPTB may be saying Ben, Sun, Frank, dead Locke and other 316 passengers (except the 1977 4) DIDN'T go back to 2007 since 316 left earth in 2008 except we do have several indications that the island present might not match earth present time

i still think Ben & Co had to go back to a time to when Locke was still on the island and alive even though he was flashing to 2007

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, Greg. My speakers work again, its more like I have to have someone come over and help with the cords, etc. I can't handle the fine motor control and would likely bend a USB cable as I have in the past (go figure).

Your experience re: Sayid & Ben mirrors (ha!) mine with Shannon/Ana-Lucia. And I know someone who read the flash fwd post at DarkUFO. He told me tried to stop, but couldn't. So I get how a lot of people (ME included) want to know. My friend hated himself afterwards but could only blame himself.

Like you (and pretty much everyone here) Greg, I'm into the speculation part. Re: your one question, it did seem as if Richard's group was at the Temple when John met up with them, Ben seemed to be giving him exact directions. But maybe there is something more than that, Rose & Bernard seemed to stay stationary. And its like each time jump "meant" something, Jughead, the science team, etc. So there's the possibility that only certain people jumped.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@neoloki and Greg, it still seems there is more at work than, well, physics/time travel, etc. The time flashes all seemed orchestrated in that each one meant something. On a lesser show, I'd explain it away saying the boring time flashes weren't shown. So in that quote neoloki had re: the Island's PRESENT time, could it be that Ajira was pulled back to the time needed for the loophole to work, i.e., a date that included a living Locke and a dead Locke? I'm thinking of the tail hook on a plane on an aircraft carrier, with Jacob (or MIB) simply stopping Ajira at the expected time frame.
Present time for the Island could be whenever Jacob wants it to be.

KoreAmBear said...

Hi everyone,

Long time-no post. I've been lurking though but didn't have much to offer.

Great post, Bigsie, and I rewatched Cabin Fever.

The trippy part was watching Horace talk to Locke in his dream over and over again ("Hi I'm Horace) skipping like a broken record, but then also bleeding from his nose. Was Horace doing the time jumping thing in Locke's dream?

And it is interesting that Locke and Ben's births both came out of some really crazy circumstances with both being pre-mies.

Interesting opening scene there neoloki. Do you know where they are going to film next? If it's close by, I may have to check out.

neoloki said...

Wayne

I just posted on another blog that the time difference, once it goes through the event horizon, could very well be part of the loophole MIB needed to kill jacob. So we are on the same page there.

KoreArm-

Check out the Hawaii blog. Is that ryan's report? You can find a link in darks spoiler section. They are filming in very discreet locations. I think we will get snippets of spoilers but the big stuff (which I don't want to know) they will keep under lock and key.

neoloki said...

It being Ajira. sorry.

Bigmouth said...

Thanks to you all everybody for your support and constructive criticism. I've updated my original post to answer two of the most commonly asked questions in the comments. Let me know what you think!

phishhead said...

OK, 2 random things:

1. Big has documented the connection between Stephen King's "Dark Tower" and the rose in that story and LOST. The rose in the story (haven't read it) is apparently actually central and critical to the story even though it seems unimportant to the world in general. Apparently the health of the world(s) is also critically linked to the health of the rose (again, haven't read it - these are my very basic understandings). Now, in Losty, there is a character named Rose, who, it turns out, was in quite poor health before she came to the island. Then, she got much better. But, now she apparently just got blown to smithereens. Anyway, just curious about this superficial connection and not sure if there is anything more there.

2. MIB apparently has a penchant for taking over dead people's bodies. Now that Jacob is dead is he able to take over Jacob's body? Not sure what the rules are here. I'm wondering if the "Jacob" we saw in any of the flashbacks could have actually been MIB in the future in Jacob's body? He looked particular evil in the Ilana hospital visit. This probably isn't the case and it's probably against the "rules," but I thought that I would ask to add one more level of whackadoo speculation (because we need more). . . .

Capcom said...

Interesting Phishhead, but that will be the last straw for my brain if TPTB are fooling us at that level (of MIB being Jacob in the FBs) but I would also not put it past them to do that, they have twisted us like that before. Not to mention the fact that they gave us this "Jacob" guy to look out for, and then came up with TWO people at the same time when they let us see Jacob, what the heck.

Nice additions Big. My head still leans towards them not wanting MIB to be in Locke though, and wouldn't anyone be a potential candidate for inhabitation if they are dead? But I don't care if I'm wrong, heheh.

I do though have to acknowledge the fact that Jacob seemed pretty laissez-faire or blase' about MIB's threats to him, as if he wasn't too worried about whenever MIB might try to kill him, which is very curious and must mean something -- possibly that he anticipated the event and had planned for it, as you say. If that is the case, one has to wonder why MIB would be too dense to realize that, but maybe Jacob is just always one step ahead of MIB for some reason. Assuming that they are good vs bad, Good doesn't always have to be dumb, and Bad isn't always smart.

Greg Tramel said...

Phishead must have been reading my mind because i have been thinking something kinda like it lately

i wonder if Richard was working for MiB all along, so when he gave the Sawyer folder to Locke he was doing it for MiB (or as you say MiB in Jacob's form)

Greg Tramel said...

and Big maybe the Others are pawns for both Jacob and MiB (and everybody else for that matter, all just chess pieces which can be moved by either Jacob and/or MiB)

i like the notion of the Others costumes and decoy village as a metaphor

Greg Tramel said...

and maybe in addition to Richard deceiving Ben about Jacob/The Cabin, maybe Richard was also being deceived all along or willingly working for MiB or playing both sides

on the other hand i'm trying to wrap my brain around a motive for Richard to kill MiB (other than at Jacob's request)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Nice update, Big. Here in Chicago, the word candidate is used for anyone in the Police or Fire academies, and I have at times thought Lapidus was going to be integrated into the Others, much like Goodwin thought the same of Ana-Lucia (if Ben is to be believed).

@KoreAmBear, Horace cuts the same tree down three times as he talks to Locke, and I've associated that with the three cabins on the Swan mural.

@ neoloki, what the producers sd about the Island's present is something I hadn't thought of, mostly because Faraday's payload was only an hour or so off. But then, Regina shot it off from a distance, Ajira likely flew right over the Island.

As Capcom said, I think MIB being Jacob puts it to the tipping point, but what if it was MIB who visited Sawyer and Kate, because those were the only two that seemed to be set on the path they ended up on. It would be hard to see MIB touching Locke to bring him back to life after his fall. That would make it seem as if the loophole was, I dunno, planned much earlier than with Ben's deception and his killing of Locke in 2008. Most of the original flashbacks seemed to be in the 2001-2002 range.

I could see MIB being Richard, which would explain why we've never seen MIB (unless he is in Smokey form). There's no doubt that Ben saw Richard as a kind of father figure, and causing the Purge would stymie Jacob's "progress." The whole "Help me" line to Locke could have been a way to bring him into the "Jacob's cabin" deal.

Re: Kate & Sawyer, I go back to S2 and Jacob's list that Bea gave Michael. If Hurley was only meant to be the messenger to the beach camp, and, as Pickett sd, Jack wasn't even on the list, that leaves Kate & Sawyer. Which still leaves me clueless in regards to that particular list.

@fishhead, a crazy thought, but since we saw Uluru play a part in the Rose & Bernard-centric episode, what if there is a flower struggling to bloom high up on the rock, where the aborigines gather for their dreamtime?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oh, and during my Monday night readings, someone read a story for critique which made me think of the jars in the cabin. What if the various liquids are something like embalming fluid?

Capcom said...

Speaking of Uluru, I read that TPTB said or hinted last hiatus that Ayers rock was going to figure into the story to bring some things together in S5. Hmmm. Maybe they meant S6.

Bigmouth said...

Capcom, I think the Man in Black needed a "candidate" with a strong connection to the Island. Someone once suggested that Frank's ability to safely navigate the time distortion around the Island indicates such a connection. I agree and think this may also relate to why Bram told Miles he wasn't ready to go to the Island. Special people with such Island connections are susceptible to manipulation by the Man in Black unless they know "what lies in the shadow of the statue" (i.e., the meta-conflict between Jacob and the Man in Black).

lukemh, thanks dude!

neoloki, I, too, got the sense Richard suspected something during their trek to the Foot. It reminded me of the flashback where he visits Little Locke. I think the latter's choice of the knife alarmed Richard because it suggested Locke was already linked somehow with Cerberus the Man in Black.

Thunder, I like the idea of someone Jacob touched being a leader. I think it's Ilana. Her group of special people could be like the Second Foundation in Isaac Asimov's Foundation series. Hmmm...this analogy might be worth exploring further in a separate post.

3D, I have a hard time buying more than one statue, though it would fit the symbolism of the show.

Wayne, I'm thinking those jars are ectomplasm -- basically, the slime in Ghostbusters. As for Richard, I think your observations show they can still take his character in either direction -- master manipulator or unwitting pawn.

annebeth, I think Jacob has to see the future to be able to manipulate events the way he has across decades and centuries of time. It wouldn't surprise me to learn the Man in Black, too, can transcend time and space as a ghost.

Greg, it's possible, but I have a hard time believing that Richard works willingly for the Man in Black. I've speculated previously that Alpert was from the Black Rock. I'm guessing the crew divided into factions -- one light, one dark -- following their arrival on the Island. That conflict culminated in Richard tricking the Man in Black to enter the statue -- perhaps with the promise he would kill Jacob -- then blowing it up with the dynamite.

Karmavore, that's an interesting possibility about the Cabin moving due to time ripples. I suppose it's even possible the Man in Black moved the Cabin outside the circle by sending our Losties back in time and affecting the past. But how do you explain the Cabin returning to its precise original location within the ash circle? That doesn't seem like the changing picture frames to me....

lostnut, good point re the amount of ash from the statue being more than the circle. Perhaps they used just a portion?

lostmio, I've always interpreted Hurley's line about Australia being "the key to the whole game" as referring to the Island itself.
But you make a interesting point re Claire being the only Aussie, and definitely fits with Claire being the key to reentry to the Cabin. Good call!

beer, I used to think the statue was destroyed by the volcano, too. But it's just too much of a coincidence that we see the statue standing with the Black Rock off in the distance. Besides, with only one season left, a Black Rock flashback is the most logical way to advance this part of the story.

Phishhead, it's possible that Jacob is really the Man in Black in the flashbacks. But like Capcom, that strikes me as too clever by half. I'm also skeptical the Man in Black would bother impersonating someone our Losties had never met. Things make a lot more sense to me if Jacob was Jacob and the Man in Black was the ghost in the Cabin. The latter's plea for Locke to "help me" is a reference to the famous Twilight Zone episode Howling Man, where the devil is imprisoned in a monastery cell and pleads with a traveler to "help me."

Capcom said...

Aha, interesting point about Frank's nav skills...that's why I like pilots, and Frankie. :o) FYI, in Florida the most known candidates are astronauts in training, lending them the funny moniker of ASCANs.

Butbutbut, TPTB said that the ash was volcanic. :-o Oh well, I guess that the statue could be made of volcanic rock.

We SO need a Black Rock flashback.

Ohhhhhhhh, that Twiligh Zone ep, wow. That's one that they don't show on TV too often, but it's such a great one about a twisty trickster. Right up Lost's alley, good thinking!

Bigmouth said...

Capcom, I do remember them saying something like that, but can't recall where they did. Do you have a cite? I like the statue connection because the circle totally reminds me of the Staff of Truth from Howling Man. I DVRed the episode during the July 4th marathon but only got around to watching it recently. Meant to work a reference into the original post but got distracted by other points.

lostmio said...

Wayne said I go back to S2 and Jacob's list that Bea gave Michael. If Hurley was only meant to be the messenger to the beach camp, and, as Pickett sd, Jack wasn't even on the list, that leaves Kate & Sawyer. Which still leaves me clueless in regards to that particular list.

Jack was on the list Bea gave Michael.
Presumably that list was Ben's creation, part of his plan to get Jack to do his back surgery.

Pickett's remark was probably talking about a separate, earlier list, one really created by Jacob.

lostmio said...

I'm on board with the simplest, ie the least convoluted, theory about the cabin - that the ghost was MIB (nice tie-in with the twilight zone episode!).
At this point, it doesn't seem to matter if the cabin was ever Jacob's or not. Ben's our only source for that.
Casual Christian being MIB and needing/using Claire to further his Locke plan makes makes more sense than any other theory I've read. Whether he needed Claire to break the ash circle, or whether he just needed her to establish some credibility with Locke - again, doesn't matter at this point.

I think - and hope - Claire's alive. Surely she is, because if she doesn't reunite with Aaron, we've set thru a hunk of wasted story.
If she's dead, tho, it'd be hilarious if she becomes a vessel for a new Jacob incarnation.
Strike that. Not gonna happen.

I'm partial to the theory that Jack might become a Jacob vessel, because the timing of his toolbox KO and then wake-up was just too conveniently edited to match Jacob's death.
IMO Jack and UnLocke will butt heads again in S6, only this time with bigger stakes and issues. So Jack-as-Jacob could work.

Am I the sole poster anywhere who thinks Jacob and MIB were merely vessels to start with? I use those names but only as a convenience for the two energies or beings, whatever, that inhabits or energizes or inspires,them. Those energies existed before the two men - MiB and Jacob - landed on the island.

Funny, as I typed this, I briefly struggled with the term 'vessel', started to use 'carrier'. And just now I remembered Danielle's "they were the carriers".

KoreAmBear said...

Howling Man has got to be the most incredible Twilight Zone ep. ever. I gave me nightmares as a kid.

Second best, To Serve Mankind, LOL.

Being a baseball fan, I loved that one with the NY Zephyrs as well.

What an incredible show.

lostmio said...

Thinking more about the Jacob and MiB carriers, it appears that the MiB energy takes on forms without the consent of the people. Dead people don't have a choice, altho it could be argued that Locke was duped into consenting.

That's not Jacob's style, he's choice and free will all the way. So the Jacob-energy might incarnate in living persons who consent in some way.
No corpse required.
If so these persons might retain their own identity but still manifest the Jacob energy. This would necessitate 'candidates'.

Apologizes for the 3 posts in a row. I'll pass the conch now.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The other day Capcom and I were talking about PK Dick, and I mentioned about the only other most overlooked writer is Charles Beaumont...who wrote THE HOWLING MAN. After Richard Matheson, Beaumont was the second biggest writer to have his stories adapted to TZ, or adapt them himself. He died when he was 37, a fluke-ish type of cancer. 1967 or so.

Big makes a good point on the voice in the cabin, in the story it is first implied to be Hitler, later as Satan. In the story, it's a cell (I don't recall its an Island, more a castle-type edifice), in the TZ episode, it was a bedroom at the end, right?

lostmio, what you stated was kind of my point. Ben certainly added Jack's name to the list, I think its his own handwriting, i.e., Jacob doesn't write the lists, he just tells someone something and they write it. Pickett picked up on that, but it still stands that Jacob only wanted Kate & Sawyer, the two people he touched that seemed to stay exactly in character as we saw them in the early flashbacks. But, yea, Ben added Jack's name because of his tumor. I think Pickett's anger was an early dodge to make the viewers think there was no Jacob and in fact Ben was making everything up to suit himself. So I still don't know what to make of the truncated list. Big suggests Frank as a candidate because he can handle the plane. What if Sawyer and Kate were considered candidates of some sort because they were able to hide their identities and intentions in various ways?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Also, I was reading WIRED yesterday. the link for the new show FLASHFORWARD, for those who might not know, is JoinTheMosaic.com/FlashForward.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

lostmio and carriers. Danielle is the one character that has used phrases no one else has. I think we bounced around the idea that both Jacob and MIB were...well, actually, the way Big put it was that maybe the Island developed a split personality (it being sentient like SOLARIS or PK Dick's VALIS, one of Ben's books).

neoloki said...

I am not sure where I heard it. If it was a commentary for Beginning of the End or a Podcast, and correct me if I am wrong, the eye in the cabin was supposed to be Hurley's. They pulled a scene where you actually saw Hurley in the cabin because they thought it would be too confusing; since he is still alive.

Jacob is Jacob and MIB is in the Cabin; referring to an earlier posted idea. Richard is not playing both sides. Big, I like your ideas here on Richard. Richard is playing the game straight up.

As far as Frank the candidate goes I was thinking that maybe Jacob told Iliana he was going to die and needed a candidate for a new body. Frank becomes Jacob. I could like that.

KoreAmBear said...

I like the "candidate" theory being a candidate for Jacob's body. Now Bram and Ilana just have to hang Frank to make it possible. Just kidding.

Yes, I belive Bram when he said we're the good guys.

Why do people keep insisting they're the good guys though? Ben, Bram, didn't Widmore say that too?

Who are Widmore's guys (like the Mr. Walkabout guy) aligned to - Jacob or MIB?

Seems like with Jacob since Ben seems to be a pawn for MIB. But then why would Widmore encourage the mass destruction of the island inhabitants, which I don't imagine Jacob would be orchestrating.

So who ordered the annihilation of the DI? Ben told Locke/Hurley he was just following instructions from Jacob. Was it the MIB? Why?

Lucky college football starts this week or else I might throw up thinking about thsi. Time for Cal to avenge the game where Maryland made Jahvid Best throw up gatorade - which is what Locke seemed to do as well (this is in one of Bigsy's other posts). Go Bears!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I had read that it was Paulo's eye at the cabin window, but I think that presumption came from theWhispers that included both Nikki and Paulo by name.

neoloki, your comment on "being alive" makes me wonder, was MIB practicing with copies of the recently dead? I.e., could he have appeared as Eko in the cabin? The idea hinges that Hurley saw Christian and then The Eye. It couldn't be Claire's, because I don't think MIB could kill anyone (meaning, he couldn't have killed Claire whenever he wanted). Smokey doesn't kill either, for that matter, Keamy's team were mortally wounded, and I think one died later, and none of the science team (that we had seen) were killed. Just had become carriers, as lostmio mentioned.

Not saying it was Paulo (another post thought it was Desmond's eye), but it would be interesting to think if MIB was playing with different scenarios re: his doppelgangers.

I sometimes go back to the lists, particularly since it really set Ben off before he killed Jacob. Aside from Jacob's touches, his lists seem to have some importance, whether he is testing the Others or simply wanting a specific deed done. Maybe there could be a short post on this in the interim.

By the way, should anyone be interested in reading Beaumont, a definitive collection of his fiction, THE HOWLING MAN, was published in the 90s. In used bookstores, you'll find odd little collections with names like YONDER! THM is close to 500 pages of TZ quality fiction.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Neat seeing you back, by the way, KoreAmBear. At times, I think the "we're the good guys" line makes me think of conquerers. That is, they are the good guys by their own justification. So far, Bram (and Ilana) seem most sincere about what the words mean. But then, first time we heard it, we only had the Hostiles to compare to the Others.

Phishhead said...

I also think that the "We are the good guys," line is simply another commentary on the human condition. From our own perspective we almost always define/rationalize our actions and ourselves as "good," "right," or at least "justifiable" from our unique vantage points. LOST seems to be a commentary on how many, many things are relative, including morality.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Good way to put it, Phishhead. I was stretching it, yours hits it more on the head. We justify our various religions (as are seen on the Island), our reasons for doing what we do. In 1954, the US Army likely told Richard's group "we're the good guys" with WWII as a perspective, even though their intent was to vaporize the Island.

Capcom said...

I thought I remembered reading that on Lostpedai Big, but I can't seem to find a reference there now. I'll ask around the community tomorrow.

Lostmio, I like your idea of some...thing...inhabiting Jacob and MIB, and that's not their original form. Is that what you meant?

Geez, that's sad about Beaumont dying so young, Wayne.

Didn't Smokey kill Eko? Or did that tree just get in the way when they were dancing? :o)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, you're right about Eko. But wasn't that a scene where it was more him facing his judgment? (Plus, I think you were the one who read that AAA wanted off the show.) I meant more like Smokey killing for the sake of killing, like Smokey not killing Claire. Also, as a lot of us believe re: MIB and Jacob knowing past, present, future, I think MIB might have known that Claire would have died from the concussion so there was no need to kill her beforehand. (My babbling here has to do with who was in the cabin with Christian before Claire popped up.)

Beaumont had dementia near the time of his death. He won an award and when he accepted it, he admitted to the crowd that he couldn't recall writing the story that won the award. He was a product of the 50s, like Matheson and Dick, selling tons of stories to the pulps and the slicks. That was the time to be a writer.

I hope what I typed made sense. It really started with the mention of the eye, and my thinking that MIB might have been "practicing" making copies of the dead. I dunno, that kind of leads nowhere. I just want to know more on the lists.

neoloki said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

Oh OK, in that respect, it doesn't seem as if Smokey kills for no reason, but certainly not for trying, heheh. Since his mission may be to "serve and protect", that could be all the reason he needs. But right, TPTB have never shown him completing a security attack on anyone yet.

Have you all seen the new poster? It's a DHARMA van. Pretty neat, but too hippie for my tastes.

Phishhead said...

One more thing about MIB taking over Jacob's body. I agree that it's too clever and so much trickery that it would get annoying. I think that so far TPTB have avoided the temptation to be clever just for cleverness' sake.

But, the one flashback with Ilana keeps sticking in my mind for some reason. It's very different in character from the rest of the flashbacks (which are going back to "give a little push" to an already ongoing series of events - OK, the Hurley flashback is more direct). But, with Ilana it's a direct plea for help. Who's famous for saying "help me"? Hmm. . . . MIB in cabin, perhaps? It's also the only flashback that isn't dated in some way, so it could theoretically be from the future. Again, I don't really believe it, but I thought that I would mention that one last footnote. . .

lostmio said...

Smokie sure as heck killed the pilot.
Lots of folks have speculated Jack was the intended victim, based upon all that awkward and otherwise pointless cockpit seat-switching immediately prior to the attack.
Something to think about.

Thunderstorm, I agree re the two Christians, the original reanimated and the second adapted and inhabited by MiB. I'm just not sure the first one is still around.

Also agree that 'candidate' could also apply to a new Others leader if Jacob knew or guessed the Locke-in-a-MiB stunt.

Capcom, yeah you nailed my belief - MiB and Jacob weren't the original forms of the two things or the duality or whatevers.

Wayne, Mikhail told Kate, Sayid, and Locke that they weren't on Jacob's list. He said it was because they were all flawed.
I think the writers gave him a half-true bit of dialog. They weren't on the list. But not sure it was because they were flawed. I love Big's spec that Jacob deliberately omitted them, to keep them out of the OK (as in 'good') corral.
Jus imo, every list came from Jacob, except for the one Bea gave Michael. That was pure Ben. Pickett's comment in context was about how he couldn't believe Ben was letting Jack operate on him, since Pickett highly distrusted any one not on the Good list. Pickett didn't mention Sawyer and Kate because they weren't about to take the Leader's life in their hands. But just imo he knew Kate wasn't on Jacob's list either.
No way to know about Hurley or Sawyer.

But apparently Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Locke were all left off Jacob's list. That's a really interesting combo, considering what just went down in the Incident, right?

neoloki said...

Smokey is definitely on the Island to serve and protect. Considering MIB's dislike of people (the human race?) it fits that Smokey and MIB are of like mind(?). Maybe MIB was the one who programmed Smokey.

Not sure what relevance the lists really have at this point. With the game down to the final moves all pawns are in play. with the lack of source info on the lists the only TRUE list we can trust has been the people Jacob has touched. It was purposeful and necessary for Jacob whatever the effect will be.

Capcom- agree on Dharma van to hippie for me.

lostmio said...

afterthought re Jack, the pilot, and Smokie:
It's well know that in the original script, Smokie killed Jack but the network didn't want the doctor-hero to die.

So my hunch is that both the seat switching and Jack's engimatic statement "I was almost a pilot" are the writers' inside joke about the switch.
I hope Darlton and the writers never give away too much inside stuff, after the show ends. It'll ruin the magic, not to mention have us kicking ourselves for obsessing hours over some things that meant nothing at all, plot wise.

lostmio said...

neoloki I'm honestly clueless about any connection between Smokie and MiB or Jacob.

The only real link is Alex's appearance to Ben, in the tunnel. I need to rewatch that scene but is it possible that MiB temporarily inhabited her body? Unlocke was MIA for those few minutes.

The one thing that's always puzzled me is that Kate's had more Smokie encounters than anyone and always got a pass. IMO, Smokie was chasing Juliet, not Kate in their scene.

lostmio said...

Thunderstorm I kinda like your hunch that Kate's a leader candidate.

Ben killed his father. Locke was told he'd need to kill his father to pass the test... and Richard helped him do that. Locke was as much the killer as Sawyer.
I've always wondered if maybe there was some old prophecy about the new leader being someone who killed his/her father.
If it really is a prophecy or test, Kate's already passed.

neoloki said...

It was that scene in Under the Temple and in retrospect the scene where Not-yemi tells Eko he is to be judged that gives me the idea that MIB and Smokey are two different entities. Plus it is just a cleaner way to tie things up. I think Not-Locke was mia because he told Smokey to judge Ben. Possible that MIB is in complete control over Smokey. regardless, i think they are separate entities.

Jacob is completely autonomous. This is what I got from the Comic-con convention when they said we have never seen Jacob in any other form.

I don't see Kate getting a pass. She has just gotten to safety.

neoloki said...

"It was that scene in Under the Temple and in retrospect the scene where Not-yemi tells Eko he is to be judged that gives me the idea that MIB and Smokey are two different entities."

In other words we see, or it is implied, that Smokey is the one Judging and the one who turned into Yemi and Alex. Another possibility is that Yemi and Alex WERE MIB and he participated in the judging then told Smokey to enact the verdict. But this latter scenario seems a bit convoluted.

Bigmouth said...

KoreAmBear: My reply to your Horace question got cut from last response -- d'oh! I think that vision was the Man in Black and/or Cerberus pushing Locke toward the Cabin. Love that Twilight Zone episode with Casey the robot pitcher! Let's hope Kevin Riley plays as well for Cal against Maryland. Otherwise, bring on Brock Mansion!

I'm actually guessing that Widmore, whether he knows it or not, is aligned with the Man in Black. It's really telling that we've never once heard him utter the name "Jacob." Charles always speaks in terms of what the "Island" wants and uses the pronoun "it." Abaddon is basically his Cerberus -- a loyal servant who gets people where Widmore needs them to go.

lostmio: I agree that the physical forms we associate with Jacob and the Man in Black could very well be vessels for beings of pure energy. The analogy is to the Organians in the classic Star Trek episode Errand of Mercy. But are their physical forms determined by bodies they inhabit, or can the MIB and Jacob control their appearance? Either way, I do wonder how they ended up as two caucasian males who speak perfect modern English.

I think Danielle's "carrier" comment refers to the Others rather than Jacob or the MIB. This fits well with my speculation above that the Others may all be connected with Cerberus by virtue of being "chosen" by the Island.

Wayne: That's right. The guy who released the devil from the monastery has him locked in a hotel room. A maid thinks he must be crazy and goes to unlock the door, starting the cycle anew. Building on the notion that Jacob and the MIB are avatars representing the two sides of the Island's personality, what if Cerberus is the Id?

Neoloki: I believe Jorge stated the eye was from someone not in the cast. But he did confirm what you said about filming a scene where he was in the chair. I see this as confirmation he, too, has a strong connection to the Island and its triumvirate of Jacob, Cerberus, and the Man in Black.

Frank becoming Jacob is possible, but I'm skeptical. Why would Jacob go through all that trouble to engineer his own death just to resume physical form? I get more of an Obi-Wan-Kenobi vibe to his death and suspect Jacob will reappear as a ghost who converses with Hurley. Besides, can you really see Jeff Fahey delivering Jacob's lines? If they go the phoenix route, I suspect that Jacob will inhabit Locke or even Jack like lostmio suggests.

Phishhead: I like your interpretation of "we're the good guys" from the perspective of the human condition. I also find it interesting how the line has been subverted so we're now instinctively suspicious when any character makes that claim.

neoloki said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
neoloki said...

Ok, Big, found the comment by Jorge and it is as you said. He filmed a scene where he is sitting in the chair.

I am not totally convinced Widmore is bad, per se. maybe, just another consequence of absolute power corrupting absolutely. Certainly Ben is no better than Widmore. Could be Widmore has a more intimate belief in the Island where Ben's belief is in himself.

KoreAmBear said...

Bigsy,

It's very cool in Howling Man how the guy who let the evil dude go, then wound up locking him up in the hotel room -- I had forgotten about that. Genius. Sinister.

I wonder about what Yemi said to Mr. Eko (in his dream), that the Dharma Initiative people were here doing some very important things. What was that all about?

Why does MIB need Locke (and Ben by accident) to move the island and then get killed on the mainland in order for him to access the loophole. Couldn't MIB just have someone kill Locke on the island and without moving it?

I can't believe it's September and we have to wait until February to see any action on this.

Although I will keep you guys posted if I hear of filming locations in time to possibly go check out.

For any of you who have the time or resources to come out to Hawaii, the Hawaii International Film Festival is going to do a panel discussion with the cast and crew as part of the festival. It will probably cost way more than the usual events but it will totally be worth it as it will be our last chance to have access to LOST cast/crew before the final season. I heard the panel is slated for October 17th but the details have not been announced yet. That's usually low season for airfare so flights out may be cheaper.

Capcom said...

Geezlooeez, right Lostmio, Smokey killed the pilot!! Heh, so long ago that I forgot, oops.

Oh wow, that's interesting about the 'killing fathers' thing, and how Kate has already done that, very true.

If Jacob and MIB are two vessels inhabited by entities, I wonder if MIB knowingly was only kiling the vessel, to render the entity powerless, more or less, until it finds another appropriate vessel which could take a while, or at least long enough to let MIB take control? But that's taking speculation for that a bit too far at this point.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@lostmio, its been so long, I, too forgot the pilot was killed by Smokey. I've said that the reason we saw so much "Monster" activity (the sounds and trees crashing) in the first few episodes was to split up those who would shun the jungle and those who would not. That would be a way to find out who were the alphas, or whatever. For awhile, I thought that the pilot was killed because he had seen something, like when Bernard saw Goodwin before he blended in with the tail section.

And we agree on the list thing, that Ben wrote the one Bea gave to Michael. I just think it has a bit of Jacob in it, because I believed Mikhail as much as I believe anything that comes out of Ben's mouth. So even though he sd Kate & Sayid weren't on any list, I don't count it as meaning much. If it was Desmond & Charlie, he might've sd the same. Just my thinking, tho. If anything, having Kate on the list gave us that creepy breakfast scene with her & Ben on the beach. But I do think it was Kate & Sawyer, falling back on how they lived their lives after he touched them. The lists are one of the things, like the food drops, etc.,that will likely never be addressed, but since we speculate a lot here, I'm just curious what others might think. E.g., what were the lists for, how many times did Jacob make a list and why were they LISTS? Lists of potential candidates?

@KoreAmBear, I think its more the time travel thing to create a visual loophole, if you will. Locke had to be off-Islsnd to not be in the Island's present time. In effect, as Greg and neleoki have said, there had to be a time where Locke was dead AND alive, which would be Dec 07 or so.

Re: Hurley in the chair, there were three different scenes re: the first coffin reveal, with Locke, Sawyer, and Desmond in each. I'll bet they'll be a few other false spoiler screencaps before S6 starts.

Later, gang. I'm going to try and figure out why the black helicopter that leaves Midway (directly north of my home) now flies overhead six times a night instead of two. Maybe I'll give Bernard's SOS sign a try...

neoloki said...

we have to distinguish between lists. there are the lists the others create to, I assume, give to Mikhail, lists that Ben has created and Jacob lists. Doing this seems rather convoluted because it is a matter of who saw what list and where did they think it was coming from.
We have the list ben alludes to over dinner with juliet "who are we to..." and then the list Mikhail refers to when held captive by Kate, Sayid, etc,al. and then there is the list Ben asks for when sending Goodwin and Ethan to the respective crash sites.
Could Mikhail have been referring to the list he got from Ben to gather info on filght 815/ probably not but who knows where Ben's manipulation starts and stops. As i posted before Ben's deception runs deep as shown in "through the Looking glass"
Maybe someone can write an essay untangling these knots. It gives me a headache.
What we are left with is the people jacob actually touched.

lostmio said...

Wayne, at this year's comic-con, Damon said we might find out in S6 exactly where the food drops came from.

I'm not holding my breath. Ben's character imo is partly inspired by Darlton in that truth sometimes takes a backseat to other stuff.

Phishhead said...

Sorry if this has already been covered and is too "basic." But, it seems like a major storyline for S6 will be explaining what has been happening in the temple and what exactly "The Others" have been up to in there and what their "higher purpose" actually is. Does Big (or anyone else) have a coherent and compelling theory on this? Again, sorry if this has been covered a lot already, I would appreciate any feedback.

neoloki said...

Far from basic Phish. I have a feeling season 6 will revolve around the Temple much as season 1 did the caves and season 2, the hatch. Much of our knowledge of the history of The Island and The Other's will probably come from The Temple.

Bigmouth said...

I wonder about the Temple too. About the only info we have is that it's safe for Alex, Karl, and Danielle, but "not for" the survivors of Oceanic 815. This has to relate somehow with the Others being linked with Cerberus. Maybe the Temple isn't safe for our Losties because Cerberus will kill them. Or maybe it's to protect them from being discovered by the MIB.

On a related note, was Juliet's brand a sign to Cerberus that she was no longer an Other?

Greg Tramel said...

the Temple is a MAJOR mystery which we have received very little info about

from Lostpedia

the Temple is a sanctuary that Ben believed might be the "last safe place on this Island" but "not for them(815ers)" when the Keamy thugs arrived & the only other thing we know is it was where Richrd took Ben to be healed

interesting ideas Big about the Others connection/protection by Cerberus and that Juliet's brand was to let Cerberus know she was no longer an Other

this on Lostpedia has me scratching my head

"Season 5: A second group of Others are currently at the Temple, according to Richard.(Follow the Leader)"

2 groups of Others? how long has the 1st group been there? where any Others in the Temple when Sawyer, Locke, Juliet, Miles were flashing in time? did the Others flash in time?

lostmio said...

Greg, in Follow the Leader, UnLocke asked Richard "is this everyone?" and Richard said "Well, there's another group at the temple but.."

I don't read too much into it. They'd had to have used a lot more extras, including Cindy and the children, if everyone was with Richard. I think it was just TPTB's way of narrowing the cast for S6.

lostmio said...

Whoops, I meant "narrowing the cast for S5".

Greg Tramel said...

ah! ok Lostmio

reminds me, i can't believe all the new cast being added for season 6, i suppose some are different aged current characters but many of them sound band new

Greg Tramel said...

couple of interesting theories on Lostpedia

"It provides refuge during time shifting. When Ben told Richard to lead the Others to the Temple, he wasn't doing so to protect the Others from Keamy and his team, he did it because he knew the Island eventually had to move."

"It is the last safe place on the island, because, The Monster isn't protecting the Island, its protecting the Temple."

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hi, all. Good question on the brand, Big. Another thing like the food drops that came and went, we never even got more on the Diana Scarwid character as "sheriff." Would that have been similar to what LeFleur's job was? And I think it was Greg that pointed out the brand looks like that wood carving from where Ethan stashed the guns.

lostmio, sometimes when I hear about a question answered at the con panels, I think, ok, we will get an answer. Then we find that the answer is one line of dialogue in a throwaway fashion, so the producers can be Benishy. If the answer comes, it likely would be in the Richard-centric episode. I could see some of the Hostiles/Others thinking that the first time the helicopter comes overhead, their first thought is of the Jughead incident back in 1954. It'd be a neat visual, seeing a food drop during DI times. But I'd also bet Widmore has the answers to the food drops, he would have known the people still alive in the Swan and possibly the Pearl were still alive.

neoloki, I do mean ALL the lists, again, not as we will get answers, more a general thing on what we make of them. Not very thought-provoking, to be sure, or maybe a little bit so. I'm thinking on the way people are named for a reason (or described by their clothing), as with the list found on the Other killed by Eko.

Phish, good point re: the caves in S1. If the symmetry holds, I see the Temple not so much as an analogue for the caves (or even the jungle) as for a representation of the Island itself. An interesting thought, though. There were survivors who chose to go to the caves or stay on the beach (yea, free will), so we might even see the two sets of Others, the ones who dress modern and those who dress in the brown and the beige. Maybe there are those who are not allowed to enter the Temple yet? In that sense, its more a mirror of survivors/S1 and Others/S6, though no doubt the Temple will play a part.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Crossed posts again. Greg and lostmio, there just might be two groups of Others the way I just mentioned. Maybe the clothng dictates who belongs to what group.

Makes sense that they were all at the Temple before the Island moved and Ben timed the wheel turn with Locke showing up to meet Richard. And if they are 2 sets of Others, I'll bet one group is DI and Mittelos-related.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg (or anyone), where's a good place to see the current cast for S6? Anyone been looking at the FLASHFORWARD mosaic blog?

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, the casting calls are on the spoilers blogs so i'll cut and paste and email them to you

i haven't really paid that much attention to them, it was just i expected ZERO new castmembers for season 6

i'm not reading anything about flashforward until after i see a few episodes

i saw a real head scratcher movie last nite i think Wayne et all would enjoy

Synecdoche, New York

neoloki said...

Wayne you mentioned something similar to this briefly in a comment last week so excuse me if i am stepping on your toes but I am getting the idea that MIB's loop-hole was created by a schrodinger's cat situation with Locke.
If Ajira went back in time as little as a month or even a couple of weeks (and this would give meaning to the time discrepancy between crashed Ajira and Take-off Ajira), we have a situation where Locke is both alive and dead. He is beyond death. Neither alive nor dead. Under such circumstances it is possible for MIB to animate and/or duplicate a living vessel. a situation could have been very similar after the crash of flight 815 with Christian. So, the trouble MIB would have to go to would be find a suitable candidate that had enough influence on the island to get to where he needed to go, ie. Jacob's Foot. Manipulate this person to such a degree as to give him a Messiah complex and get him off the Island. Kill him or get him dead anyway possible and then get him back to the Island within enough time as to create a time/space paradox. Thus the loop-hole is created and he could animate/duplicate the body to get to Jacob and have some one else kill him. MIB would have to be manipulating Ben as much as Locke for his plan to succeed. That would be a very Long Con.

Does that work or make any sense?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I get what you mean, neoloki. Ben was manipulated as he did the same to Jack, et al. Culminating in Ben's rant about lists (which made me bring that topic up before) before MIB (as Locke) got him to kill Jacob. I do see that, and it was MIB/Christian who told Locke he had to die. MIB could have somehow told Ben that Locke might chicken out and not kill himself, that Ben should do it. And, yea, my thoughts on the loophole involving Live/Dead Locke go back some, but I was thinking on how Ajira might've had its brakes put on via some force on the Island, making it crash on Hydra instead of anywhere else near Guam.

One other thing that mystifies me is that Sun seemed to play a part in making MIB/Locke convincing to Richard, Ben, etc. So did MIB somehow control the phase outs on 316, as well. Of course, he needed Ben, but why Sun. Are MIB and Jacob really all-knowing, that replacing Sun with, say, Hurley wouldn't help the situation in 1977 because Sun would meet Jin and MIB needed her in 2007 to give her a reason to follow him around, the idea that she could be reunited with Jin. I'm wondering why she never asked Ben for the ring back, or did she? Maybe the way the flight was duplicated allowed for who went where, it was just dumb luck that Jin's wedding band were all handled by Locke, Ben, and Sun. I wonder how much of MIB's loophole can be seen that line Eko told Locke about not mistaking coincidence for luck. Was MIB waiting for dumb luck to kill Jacob all along? I just don't want to see an MIB/loophole explanation like they do on CSI or MONK, with cutaway visuals. I'll break the TV. Then I'll break my neighbor's TV. I'd rather it be left to people like us to mull over.

@Greg, thx for the cut & paste, you can do that over on FB or at jonalgiers@aol.com. I didn't mean thoughts on FF, I meant the link to the website I posted on Monday or Tuesday.

Capcom said...

Wow, good point on the brand and Smokey, and it was clearly the same as the mark on the tree. I like the theory of the temple as a safe haven for the time-skips, etc., too. As well as being in the Temple may have kept the Others from time-skipping the way that the LBs did for whatever reason, or at least protected them from ending up in an uncontrollable situation after every skip.

I also hope that there is some resolution to all these lists that have been thrown around, but I really doubt it (altho I hope to be pleasantly surprised). If we don't, I guess that we just chalk it up to some metaphoric phylosophical aspect known only to TPTB.

I took the "other group" talk to mean that they had just split up to accomplish different purposes before meeting up later, but I could be wrong. It just seemed as if they had a lot to accomplish in a little bit of time, so they split up for that.

No offense but I thought Synecdoche was horriblly depressing, and the theater previews that I saw made it seem like an entirely different movie than what it actually was, i.e. more artistic. But maybe if I hadn't paid to see it I'd have been more patient with it. And perhaps the overall message was just over my addled head. :o)

I like your loop idea Neoloki.

neoloki said...

Considering the opinion that we have seen MIB at work throughout the 5 seasons of Lost, Jacob becomes the ghost in the machine. The phase out's on 316 could have easily been Jacob's work. Jacob needed Jin and Sun's love to endure. This might play a role in getting the 77ers back to 07/08. Regardless the game has 2 sides and Jacob I am sure has been just as active. We just haven't seen to what extent yet. But, no it is no coincidence that Jin is in 77 and Sun in 07. However, it does seem Not-Locke wanted Sun for believability.
With MiB and Ben it seems to be more of an emotional manipulation than a physical one. Yes, he had to have the players in the right place at the right time ut that wouldn't be enough without proper motivation. I doubt MIB had to say anything to Ben for the game to play out as he needed it to.
The event horizon around the Island seems to cause havoc on electrical systems so I doubt any physical force was needed other than passing through the window Eloise spoke of. Eloise had a list of flights that could get to the Island but it had to be Ajira. Could be the baring Ajira would approach the Island at giving it the time difference needed once it crashed to create a Schrodinger's Locke. The timing of the crash seems to be the crux of the situation.
The explanation: who knows. It is network TV. Hopefully we will get a few more hints and that will be all. The season 6 answers are going to be interesting because over explanation of the show will ruin it, but not answering many of the mysteries will have everyone else throwing there tv out the window (except a few here, myself included). I am not really interested in answers just a compelling story.

Greg Tramel said...

Neoloki good point that maybe 815 crashed after going a wee bit back back in time like 316 so it was a time when Christian was still alive on earth

Capcom sounds like LOTS of people were disappointed with Synecdoche, my wife refused to even watch he entire movie but i really enjoyed it as a unique syfy story and really enjoyed all the other syfy movies he wrote such as Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and Being John Malkovich

Greg Tramel said...

Big (or anyone for that matter) it is not quite sinking in for me so i'd like to hear more about the connection between Cerberus and the Others and in turn MiB and the others

Thunderstorm said...

Too much to comment on... great stuff, you guys.

Lostmio, I agree about Jacob/MIB being vessels for spirits and possibly even Black Rock 'victims' perhaps like Alpert.

Lists...Maguffins, possibly. Little tidbits of mystery to push the plot forward.

Howling Man...nice one Big! I believe I've seen that, but if I did, it was when I was a kid. Need to revisit.

Adding cast members...they have to cast each and every small role, so I wouldn't get too worked up about that. Caesar's casting made all the publications (because of the actors 'name' alone) and he ended up in about ...? 3 episodes. Serving only to advance the plot. I think we are mostly done with 'important' add-ons, getting Ilana, Bram, MIB, Jacob in Season 6.

I suspect most all these castings are similar to Jill the Butcher.

Isbael (Scarwid) I thought was excellent, Wayne. Good and creepy. What a wasted opportunity, maybe negotiations with the actress broke down...who knows?

Richard is NOT working for MIB, that's JMO (shared by others). In fact, I really like the idea he killed MIB many moons ago.

Also agree with lostmio...re: Smokey, MIB. Alex was Smokey, that much I am reasonably certain and Flocke/MIB was literally 'upstairs' ...he might be able to steer it but they aint' the same thing.

Claire is alive, don't worry. With Juliet's apparent death (I have to assume) and Shannon and Libby, they have a dearth of hot blondes on the Island. Too hot to be a zombie. Hey, that's good logic, right?

Actually I have a whole diatribe over on The Fuselage about this, me and Big (maybe even lostmio) went around about this. I think the consensus is that the story is likely better served if she is alive. Don't want to speak for others.

The eye in the cabin...MIB, IMO.

Too much to get to. more later.

neoloki said...

Kaufman movie Synecdoche. I liked the idea more than I liked the movie. A play of the world which in itself is a play. A kind of snake eating it's tail motif. A times it was brilliant and I liked the twinning, but by the end I did have the over whelming feeling that I had been banging my head against a rock for 2 1/2 hrs and that i should eat a gun.

KoreAmBear said...

@Wayne I'm trying to understand the visual loophole. You stated that there is a point where Locke is dead AND alive on or about Dec. 2007. But when Ben hung him, Locke is dead (dead is dead). When is he alive in 2007 again? I'm slow on the uptake so maybe I'm missing something.

Btw, what I am looking forward to again is the Black Rock back story. I'm sure Darlton is going to have fun with the cinematography on that one. Maybe a guest spot for Johnny Depp as a pirate?

Greg Tramel said...

KoreAmBear, Locke is alive on island in a flashfoward before he turned FDW at the "same time" was he was dead on earth which may be the mirror of Christian being alive on earth while at the same time being dead on island

Capcom said...

Interesting Greg, I had no idea that he wrote that. And if I had an inkling that it was supposed to be SF material, I would have gone in with a different mindset...but still would have been depressed, heheh.

Great point about MacGuffins Thunderstorm. Which means that we may not get any clarification about it.

I too thought Scarwid would have made a nice addition in a longer part of the story. They even killed her off-camera, phooey. I heard something back then about why her deal was so short, but can't remember it.

LOL about "S,NY" Neoloki. I'd like to know if there was anything upbeat about the story that I missed maybe. All it said to me was, life is a mess, you're a mess, everyone hates you, you hate you, so just live your miserable life until you die, cuz that's all there is. The end.

Phishhead said...

Glad to hear that I'm not totally behind the curve in terms of The Temple and The Others. I'm playing catch up here. . . .

I have a related question about how Ben came to be the leader of The Others. My understanding based on what Richard has said is that one needs to be "special" in some way in order to become a leader. It's not clear what's initially "special" about Ben other than having an overabundance of homicidal rage and a willingness to engineer mass murder. Perhaps something about him being healed at the Temple? But, again, this seems like not insufficient criteria for such an important position to me.

I'm wondering if Ben "wasn't supposed" to be a leader of The Others but MIB engineered it somehow (like with Locke) as part of creating his loophole. I'm wondering if Jacob also saw this coming from a million miles (or years) away and somehow "signed off" on Ben being a leader as part of his long-term countermeasures. . . .

Greg Tramel said...

oh maybe i should have said about S, NY head banger instead of head scratcher, it may be bit of a downer but there is a sly thread of dark humor in there

Capcom said...

Wow, you just made me wonder if Ben was doing all his things in Tunisia with Sayid, on orders from MIB rather than Jacob or for his own intentions. Then you could make the connection that MIB set up Sayid to be a killer, got him mad enought to hate Ben, so that when he saw little Ben, he'd kill him and he'd get taken to the Temple for healing, and then what you just said. But geez, that's just too convoluted even for me.

Capcom said...

I might get more on a second watch Greg....but I'm afraid! :o)

Phishhead said...

Sorry, type on last post - meant to say that it seems like being healed at the Temple is NOT SUFFICIENT criteria for being leader. Obviously this is based on nothing more than my conjecture. . . .

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Scarwid was great, but I'm saying I'd have liked to know more about the "sheriff," though I think Ben told Jack that she was "kind of like a sheriff," which reminds me of the DI guy in "He's Our You". That is, Richard's group, as led by Ben, had a "sheriff" but not as we would see it. Does that make sense the way I put it?

@KoreAmBear, "The Life and Death of Jeremy Benthem" takes place entirely in January of 2008. This is canon, and the easiest way to think of the two Lockes. 316 is sometime in Dec 07 as Locke had his dialogue w/ Widmore in Tunisia in late November 07. Since everything happens in 1977 over 3-4 days, I think the same is occurring in 2007.

@Thunderstorm, yet another lost soul who would speak of watching the TZ episode, but at least Beaumont DID adapt it from his own story. I'm just kidding of course, but there are two librarians commenting here, if I'm correct. And I've mentioned to Big that any book about LOST with the publishers (the big one is HarperCollins right now) takes second place to actual novels about BUFFY and BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. So a large part of my disdain about network TV is that it bleeds into the book publishing world. Greg, do you see a lot of novelizations and adaptations being taken out of your library?

@neoloki, speaking of network TV, I mainly mean I'll be doing an Elvis to my TV if the producers DO try to explain too much to satisfy those who only watch TV. I don't think they will, but that was my point. Plus, I doubt my neighbor would let me near his TV, ha ha.

If I happen to sneak over to The Fuselage, how do I locate you all everybody's thread or whatever it's called?

neoloki said...

Korearm- Let say Ben killed Locke on Dec 15th 2007. Ajira fly's throw the event horizon of the Island and goes back to Dec 1 2007. In this state Locke is alive on earth but dead on the Island. So, in essence Locke is both alive and dead at the same time. Maybe, MIB needs to create this mixed state in order to take control of a vessal.

Here is the many worlds interpretation of Schrodinger's cat. Since the state of the cat can not be observed the cat is niether alive nor dead, but a mixture of both


"In the many-worlds interpretation, both alive and dead states of the cat persist, but are decoherent from each other. In other words, when the box is opened, that part of the universe containing the observer and cat is split into two separate universes: one containing an observer looking at a box with a dead cat, and one containing an observer looking at a box with a live cat."

If we take it to this next step it is possible for MIB to have Lockes body and for the body to be still on the ground in front of him. Assuming MIB and Jacob are not confined by time and space.

neoloki said...

Wayne

I forgot about Locke in 2008. That makes it simpler.

yeah we are on the same page as far as the show giving answers.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Tunisia is another thing I want to know more about. Why the dozens of passports and why did the hotel clerk look spooked when Ben gave the name "Dean Moriarty" as his check in name. The name matches for Kerouac's ON THE ROAD, that's all I got. But someone here once mentioned that the name is known because of frequent visits to the hotel.

Phishhead, whether its true or not at this point, I thought Richard saw Ben as special because he saw his mother, just as the Others took an interest in Walt, then washed their hands of him. Now that we know about Jacob and MIB, I think many of our earlier perceptions have or will be changed. Re: the loophole, I want to think that MIB was trying variations on the loophole all along, in whatever way he could.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

The info on Benthem comes from Lostpedia, but the producers have put the month/year as canon, likely to erase the earlier date of the obituary Jack saw, which was April of 2007.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

If anyone knows how I can delete multiple posts, I'm all ears.

Capcom said...

The way that you explained it is how I've always pictured the two alive and dead Lockes in my head since S4 speculation as well Neoloki. I didn't go into it in depth, but scratched the surface of the question here: link

Capcom said...

There should be a trash can at the bottom of your post to delete it Wayne. But sometimes the can doesn't show up.

Perhaps the multiple visits to Tunisia was implied by the fact that Ben (-I think, said that he-) was a preferred customer, or something like that.

Bigmouth said...

Ben seeing his dead mother raised Richard's interest. But Locke telling Ethan during the time flashes that Ben would eventually become the Others' leader was a key event as well. Ethan seemed to find this notion laughable, confirming that Ben was not yet leader. But I'll bet Richard didn't laugh when Ethan described the nut who told him it would happen. If the MIB did initiate the time loop, therefore, he's at least indirectly responsible for Ben becoming leader.

Capcom said...

Exactly. :-o

Greg Tramel said...

i guess these are fan made

OCEANIC AIRLINES


Oceanic World Airlines

neoloki said...

i like your web-site Cap-com. How many do you have because I'm pretty sure that I have another book marked.

Big- I can imagine a scenario where MIB might be wholly resposnisble for Ben becoming a leader. It just makes too much sense at this point.

However, Richard serving MIB. No, I can't go there.

Widmore got kicked off the Island because of his frequent visits to the main land and fathering a child off Island. The passports just show Ben has been doing something similar. He is no better and is a hypocrite. Funny i just described my favorite character. Thats the beauty of Michael Emerson. But the many passports, On THe Road I think that says it all. Ben is a very fleshed out character.

neoloki said...

The one thing I am sure of in the world of Lost is that Frank and Sawyer need more screen time together. They could make a whole series or maybe a travel show "traveling through time with Sawyer and Lapidus". Now that would be entertaining and funny.

Thunderstorm said...

Capcom, I've had your blog bookmarked for a long while now, don't know that I've ever commented over there but I will on your next entry!

Wayne, after re-reading, I believe I overrated the thread and overstated my 'dissertation'. There is some good Claire discussion but it devolves into a discussion about another theory. (hoax theories) SO I won't bother with the link (lostmio did not appear to be involved, my mistake but Bigmouth was)

So, basically my reasoning (re: Claire being alive) doesn't have much to do with any evidence as seen on the show. I didn't have any new insight into the Cabin...or the idea that she walked off with "Christian" or the scene with the house blowing up...

Basically my rationale is all about what a good writer (one worth their salt) would do in this situation.

All of the highly emotional plot elements, her ties to the most pivotal characters...in a nutshell, there is way too much RICH storytelling that requires her to be alive.

That's maybe not as convincing to some as a cool device for luring Smokeys, MIB's and Zombie Dad's...but there is too much invested in the narrative to have (not only) killed her off but to have killed her off in that manner.

No character is immune to being 'offed' but no other character has that much emotional baggage hanging in the balance for S6. That's gold for a writer...especially when many arcs (Sayid, Miles, Hurley...maybe Kate) are drying up or reaching a fairly reasonable conclusion.

It would be a hideously wasted opportunity in the name of a gimmick that many people saw coming from miles away...so yeah, I think all signs point to her being alive, even if I don't have any hard evidence. I'll defer to the logic of a writer who knows how to NOT undercut his/her own (already in place) fruitful narrative.

Capcom said...

I'd hope/think that Claire will be alive too, but whatever is the reason she floated away for a while, better be a humdinger. My mind won't be able to accept if they say that she just got lost in the jungle like Rose and Bernie. For R&B that was a very good thread, but Claire's got a baby for crimineesakes.

Wayne, if the local Barnes and Noble, Borders, and McKays (a GIANT used bookstore) are any indication, reading is alive and well in Knoxville. :-)

Neoloki and Thunderstorm, it's silly, but I've got 8 blogs, altho I took the Fringe one down off the list as I lost interest in writing things about that show, but still love reading about it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Thunderstorm (and neoloki), aside from Capcom's main blog, check her sidebar for her other blogs and go to Perditia Scientia. There's a site with her artwork, too, but I don't think there's any squiggly monster eating a stick figure Locke.

I want badly to believe Claire is still alive. I have to laugh at the "maybe Kate" because I think her story was told as of S1, well maybe since "What Kate Did." There's a big love Kate/hate Kate thing with the fans. I love Sawyer (I mean, in a Kurt Russell kinda way), but I think his story and her story (minus Jacob's touches) were done fairly early in S1 & 2.

Back to Claire, though. I agree 100% with your thoughts on a competent writer handling her ending. I wish Brian K. Vaughan was still with the show.

I was fairly annoyed that Desmond talked to Claire and didn't give her Charlie's Greatest Hits list, I thought that might be a sign that Claire was no longer important, but now that Sun found the Drive Shaft ring in Aaron's crib, well, she has to be back. For that matter, Aaron and Ji-Yeon need to be referenced, too. One of the failings of the show in some respects is that certain characters are not mentioned at all until the next episode they pop up in. I wouldn't go so far as to say LOST goes the way of plot devices like so many shows do, but the writers should/could find a way. When Sun & Jin are reunited, she'll tell him about Ji-Yeon, but I'm kind of surprised Aaron was played up so much and, like Claire, we're all about waiting for him and Claire to appear with no mention beforehand. Kinda sucks.

I agree that Ben was a frequent flyer and the hotel clerk was told he was a preferred customer (which I took to mean the presidential or penthouse suite), but I also thought Widmore used the same passport, or even Richard did, meaning the name went back a few decades. Widmore didn't know exactly where Locke would show up in the desert, but he could have stayed at that hotel regardless. Someone from the DI had to know in some way that the polar bears were ending up in Tunisia. Which brings those guys into play again, they could not have fit into the vault and they could have been likely candidates to move the "frozen donkey wheel." Crap. Anyhow, I assumed the Dean Moriarity ID had been used by more than one person. But, as neleoki sd, ON THE ROAD fits Ben's quest from Sayid to Jeremy Benthem fits exactly.

Capcom said...

There would be a squiggly Smokey eating a stick figure if I'd thought of it first Wayne! And, a velvet painting too! Dangitt. Still looking for my artistic gimmick cashcow after all these years.

Hey those Oceanic sites are neat Greg.

Yes, let's hope that Kate and Sawyer's story is done, and maybe Kate with Jack as well. She needs to get herself to a nunnery. Thankfully Sun found the ring, I was really waiting for that to happen by someone, and lost hope of it after S4 ended without any mention of it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

That's right about the ring, Capcom, like with the Greatest Hits, um, list. There's something about Jin's ring that I still find talismanic or mystical now. Sun finding the DS ring reminded me of this. Jin's wedding band has been touched by himself, Sun, Ben, and Locke. Could be one of the touchstones, or whatever, that draws the 77ers fwd to 07.

You artwork is just find. Who needs money? Nobody answer that. Really.

Thunderstorm said...

Wayne/Capcom...Perditia Scientia is the one I have bookmarked, so I'll check the others out. I'm sure I found it through EMS.

Yeah, I think regardless of the 'explanation' for why she left Aaron, The Cabin and all that...I really don't have a great idea...I just think the stories to be told between her possible reunion with Aaron, or her brother, or Aaron's keeper and her apparent 'saviour' Kate, to her close friend Hurley...to the idea that she could be used against Jack (or any of them for that matter)by MIB.

Which brings me to a point unanswered in most LOSTian places.

What keeps all those people from killing MIB right where he stands? Outside of a mythological rule...what if Mr Flocke had little miss Claire as a 'hostage'

Otherwise, nobody there (that the viewer would have a large investment in) would have any reason to 'follow' him. They would just as easy kill him.

Also, it's a perfect conflict point for when "They" come back. Nobody (Sun, Frank etc.)believes it's John Locke on the Island in 2007...but Claire might. (as well as being a possible rationale for 'grabbing her' in the first place)

I may have a new theory in place by tomorrow that covers some of this ground...ideas that are 'in show'.

Greg Tramel said...

as far as reading Wayne they're busting down the doors to checkout lots and lots of books but as far as the relationship with TV shows i would say it is the other way around, shows like True Blood and Gossip Girl have increased the readership of the books they are based on but i would say nobody seems that interested in novelizations of TV shows, i suppose the Buffy novelizations had a bit of a following when it was still on TV but that's the only 1 i can think of off the top of my head

i suppose the Star Wars novelizations hold there own as a movie novelization but that's about it as far as movies as well but a good movie often brings them in looking for the book it is based on

Greg Tramel said...

neoloki, i don't think we have enough puzzle pieces to definitively say Richard is not in cahoots with MiB (or what "side" anybody is on for that matter)

i still don't know where MiB ends and Jacob begins and i still think they are heads of the same entity but i don't think i will go as far as saying they are 2 heads of Cerberus with Christian currently being the 3rd albeit an interesting way to look at it

maybe a better way to look it is did any of Richard's actions assist MiB which i think we can definitively say yes to but anytime you get into intention it gets murky

even though most of would say we are working for the good side i don't think we could say all our actions benefit only the good side

logically we would think everybody that Jacob touched is working for his side but that obviously is not true and those touched don't know which side they are definitively working for

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Thunderstorm, everyone but me (it seems hates the Nikki/Paulo episode, but I thought it covered so much Island stuff in 42 minutes. The Pearl, Ben & Juliet, dead characters. A decent writer could pull off a -centric episode of Richard or someone else with Claire in one or two scenes that way, alive or dead. Almost impossible with the babies, of course. But a reminder they EXIST would be kinda nice.

@Greg, well, I guess that's a good sign. The Buffy books are all work-for-hire, $1500 flat, no royalties ever. Yet several of my friends still write them, I guess they sell in the stores.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, i've share your love for the Nikki/Paulo episode, i really enjoyed it and found it very interesting

Greg Tramel said...

i think (but have no proof)Richard is well aware of MiB and Jacob and at times he feels he has to do things which benefit MiB

like i've said before he's got a HUGE weight on his shoulder, no wonder he is addled

Greg Tramel said...

Big, i'm not so sure yet about the idea of Richard killing MiB (for 1 thing who/what exactly did he kill)

are you saying Richard killed somebody on Black Rock and MiB took that persons form?

Phishhead said...

Is the question mark on the middle of the blast door map pretty clearly the Temple? Does smoke monster/Cerberus guard the Temple the same way that the mythological Cerberus guarded the underworld? Was the DI in part trying to find a way past Cerberus into the Temple/Underworld the same that folks tried various methods to get past Cerberus in to and out of the underworld in Greek/Roman mythology? The "X"s on the map from the "tunnels" leading from the stations to the center seem to be indicating "nope, sorry, not this way. Try again."

Capcom said...

Well, it's pretty much thought that the "?" in the BDM represents the Pearl, which had that "?" in the grass over it. I would like to know if the temple is indicated on the BDM somehow, I'm gonna give it a new look-over.

I liked the N&P episode Wayne, I just didn't like *them* so much...and, yet another selfish murder on the show, you know how I am. ;-)

I like your idea that sometimes RA may have had to appease MIB on occassion, Greg.

Tx Wayne, but still looking for my "pet rock" idea.

Phishhead said...

Oh, and of course the blast door map also takes great care to mark the location of the Cerberus vents and Cerberus activity. . . .

Greg Tramel said...

this blogger has done some digging on the Oceanic Airlines websites

Oceanic Airline has a new website?!

Synchromystic Librarian said...

i really enjoyed this read but it reminds me of my questioning of how real is this great war or is it just metaphorical

i'm leaning towards metaphorical and i'm doubting we will actually see a war in season 6 or maybe i'm just hopeful that's it will work itself out

Talkin' 'bout my generation

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