Over on the fuselage.com, there's an interesting debate with potential implications for a bunch of topics we've discussed recently. Take a gander at this deleted scene from the Season 4 DVD, which apparently takes place when Ben lands in the desert after turning the Donkey Wheel:
In the scene, Ben rides to a crumbling stone wall and dismounts. As he scans the horizon, we can clearly see a body lying motionless off in the distance. Mysteriously, the body appears to be wearing Ben's Dharka, pants, and boots. Ben seems unphased by his dead "twin" but is obviously in a hurry. He pauses long enough to grab a stash of money and passports hidden in the wall then gallops off into the desert.
The conventional interpretation, which I currently favor, is that the body belongs to one of the Bedouins who accost Ben after he wakes up in the desert. Ben dresses the first body in his clothes to fool Widmore's people into thinking he died in transit. (This might be why, as Wayne Allen Sallee reminds us, Widmore installed cameras at the exit point.) Ben goes to hide the second body, then returns for the wall stash. The scene was probably cut to avoid confusing viewers familiar with the two Bunny 15s from the Orchid Orientation outtake.
That brings me to the more whackadoo take, which is admittedly growing on me which I'm now persuaded is correct. You can't make out the face in the youtube clip, but our friend darkprose swears it's Ben's own visage when viewed on DVD. And as SamG observes, the deleted scene seems to be a continuation from when Ben rides off after the Bedouin attack. Watching the two scenes in that order leaves the impression they take place at different locations. You can, for example, see power lines behind the body that aren't visible when Ben first awakens. As Netprophet notes, however, the pile of rocks behind Ben is the same in both scenes.
I know what you're thinking. One Ben? Two Bens? But he ... but you can't ... oh, my medication. Skepticism was my first reaction, too. The more I think about it, however, the more intrigued I am by the notion that turning the Donkey Wheel creates a duplicate. Could this be why the Man in Black wanted Locke to turn the Wheel? Can returning to the Island have a similar twinning effect? Maybe Darlton deleted the scene in question to avoid tipping their hands prematurely regarding the two Lockes in Season 5...
Update: September 15, 2009
Darkprose has posted this screencap (click for a larger pic) which establishes pretty conclusively that a second Ben is indeed lying on the ground.
Update: September 16, 2009
Our friend Allan has created this loop (click the icon in the bottom right corner for full screen) of the second Ben apparently inhaling. Though we see this other Ben for only a second or two, his exaggerated gasp resembles the deep breath taken by the original Ben upon awakening in the desert.
As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!
I'm a little confused. How could the outrigger shooting take place BEFORE Jacob's sacrifice? Remember, our Losties take the outrigger from the Island, not Hydra. Also, none of Ilana's people is wounded when we see them at the cabin and statue.
I think the group at the statue will divide into two factions: those who follow Locke, and those who stay with Ilana and Co. The latter will chase the former but become confused when a third Locke (two living, one dead) appears due to the time flashing.
I never understood what the confusion there was either given the fact that there was two outriggers at the beach camp and one with the Ajira water bottle. The group shooting at Sawyer goup would have had to witness the boat leaving and followed them until within shooting distance. Highly doubtful this happened pre Jacob sacrifice.
I think that I would guess that it happened afterwards also and something that happened in the future that we haven't seen yet, but not sure. I can't wait until the moment when TPTB show us who was shooting at them, our jaws are probably going to drop.
i rewatched the last 3 eps of Dollhouse, the first few eps sucked IMHO but the last 3 made up for it and i'm ready for it to start back up, i think Friday, the unaired ep was ok but not really necessary
On that S5 map, the order of the time flashes (and when or 'unknown time') are marked. The Ajira people originating on Hydra does make it confusing, and I'll bet when we do see the scene, it will be from the 2nd outrigger's POV. What would make that scenario interesting, is the reason why they would feel the need to shoot.
I know it was only Locke and Ben when they left Hydra, but I was thinking a good scenario would be the 77ers showing up on Hydra in time to see Ben shoot Cesar. It just doesn't work, though, and no one had a gun at the end of S5 near the Swan. Unless, between S5 and S6 Sawyer grabs a rifle from dead Phil (maybe to shoot Radzinsky) and they see Cesar dead and the other guys that were near Cesar tell them about the other boat, but don't say how many are there. But that stretches it a bit. Still, I don't see that scene with Jack and Cesar as throwaway. Plus, Locke told Cesar Ben was the one who killed him, that he'd been on the Island a hundred days, etc. If Cesar is somehow alive, he would tell Jack enough for Jack to do his Jack-face double take (fingers to forehead, rapid blinking, slight drool) and say WTF? Then play leader and get everyone in boat#2. Because he is Jack.
I had to double check and make sure the season premiere of Fringe wasn't written by Chris Carter.
You know what I did, folks? In my downtime I read all 17 transcripts of Season 5 (they are more detailed at Lost-Tv, with action often described, versus those @ Lostpedia).
So my Season 5 recap (in that context) only took about 4 hours. Granted, it's not a very 'filling' context. But it helped me to iron some things out. Besides, it was fun, almost like reading a book.
Anyhow...
Who shot the person in the second (trailing) outrigger? Was it Juliet?
What would create the most irony?
Conceivably she could have shot anyone on the show...but in order to make it rich or cruel irony, or perhaps even sweet vengeance of some kind...
I'm thinking Ben makes the most sense and given his importance to the mythology...is it not conceivable that this scene could be quite near the series finale?
Greg, to your question. It is analogous to the Flocke-Richard-Locke-compass scene.
In that, Richard and Flocke are the 'shooters who got shot' and real Locke, who got shot by Ethan is like Juliet and her group. One group is 'fixed' in time and one is unstuck.
And this experience is relative to Broken Leg Locke, who set the wheel 'straight' in ancient times and those left behind were stuck in 1974. So they all became unstuck in the first place (January 2005) AFTER Locke set the wheel straight.
Wait, weren't the flashes still happening on the canoe, because another flash happened while they were getting shot at and they landed in a downpour, didn't they? Obviously I didn't rewatch it yet, or I wouldn't have to be asking, heheh.
LOL about Jackface, Wayne.
LOL about Fringe/Carter, Thunderstorm.
What would blow my mind, is if they are following and shooting at themselves in the canoes! :-o
Greg: Do you mean the outrigger flash took place years (maybe centuries) in linear time after Locke turned the Wheel? If so, then most, if not all, of the flashes took place "after" Locke turned the Wheel. But Locke hadn't yet turned the Wheel from his own perspective -- they were headed for the Orchid when the shooting started.
On an unrelated note, do people think that stash of passports and currency is the same stash Ben has on the Island? If so, why does Ben retrieve it from the wall in the desert? Did he simply hide them behind the rock while he disposed of the Bedouin bodies?
That's what I thought too. Ben keeps a stash of various IDs and cash anywhere that he might pop up in time or space, just in case he doesn't go back to his stash in the cottage before "traveling".
So does that mean Ben--well I guess he never lied about himself implicitly, because no one ever asked him directly--went off Island before to put the passports there. I was thinking maybe Richard or someone else at least started the money stash, because the passports need to be new, etc. How did Richard see Locke being born in 1956, then visit him in 1962? The same way Widmore was leaving the Island (however the manner), as they didn't have the sub until 1992? I suppose we'll get anything about Richard from his episode, so any time I speculate when Richard comes up, I try not to think I'll be disappointed by his -centric 42 minutes. A nice linear 150 Years in the Life of Alpert--a simple linear story-- would work best.
Re: the outrigger scene, I guess the options really change for every episode that goes by before S6 ends. That flash led directly to the 1988 flash where they find the B612 (that right?) box of the science team washed on shore.
I'm up to the episode after LeFleur in re-watching, so it will just about be Kate making stupid decisions every 15 minutes soon enough. I do get to hear my "Ride, Captain, Ride" song when they show up at the processing center.
Big, a good post might be on the outrigger shootout, with bullet points on the two or three (or more) implications both before and after.
Yes, I suppose it could have been anyone who might have had the job to disperse the necessary "Hostile" equipment around the world, as well as the person who's actually doing the travel. I don't suppose that Hostiles were leaving the island willynilly, but we know that Ben, Tom, and RA did for various tasks.
Well, I'm guessing Ben, Tom, etc. used the Galaga after 1992. And there's no reason to think that Ben and crew did not simply travel to Tunisia from Portland (or w/e) and plant money and passports. Crazy thought, what if that pile of rock is similar to the well, maybe covered up by sand inside. The exotic energy would appear underground and burp anyone onto the surface. Maybe centuries ago, the area was clear of winds, like in the talk of water marks on the Sphinx indicating climate change.
I'm reading a book that mentions a hurricane hitting Grenada. Perhaps the meteorology station was set up (and...perhaps it is called THE LAMP POST, just came into my head), to gauge speed and wind direction over water, and we have seen those Island coordinates change on that tote board. That could be the missing DI station everyone hopes to see on the map. Or, if there is one on the Island, it just gets a readout of the coordinates, but that could have been handled at the Flame, or better yet, the Looking Glass, so the sub could get the right compass heading.
yeah, i agree there are stashes of passports, money and such in different places on earth for Richard, Tom, Ben, Ethan, Widmore (anybody else we have seen off island during their on island timeframe)
not counting Jacob
i think the sub is not the only way to travel to and from the island (i mean other than using FDW)
I am sure Ben was the only one who had a stash of passports and money. Given his paranoia and manipulations. Especially after Widmore was booted from the Island. Ben must have put up protective measures and fail safes, so to speak. In other words, if it could happen to Widmore it can happen to me(Ben). They others Tom, Ethan were sent to do tasks. I have a hard time believing Ben would let them go without permission. So they had no need for a stash. As far as Richard goes, I can't imagine he would be to worried about such things. Given he has been a part of the Island for so long. Any venture for him would have a specific purpose: young Locke, Juliet, etc, al. So, Ben was the stash keeper and Ben alone.
but is is right we have only seen Richard, Tom and Ethan off island during their time as an Other and it is implied Ben and Widmore spent time off island during their time as Others, any Others i'm forgetting
i'm assuming the times we have seen Ellie off island she was permanently off island
Greg, in relation to the outriggers, regardless of when they occurred, it was their present, correct? Doesn't matter if Locke turning the wheel is after, well, whenever, as there were several rapid shifts before Charlotte died. Locke was in the outrigger, so that was "the present" at the time.
Ben's the pack rat for sure, though maybe we did see another method of travel besides the Galaga and the FDW. I'd forgotten. I recall there being another boat besides the goofy one they gave Michael & Walt. Like a small yacht or something? Nothing ever explained, just visible around the time of the viking funeral for Colleen.
When I mentioned Richard, its more in the context of exactly how he went to visit Locke as a baby. Via the wheel? In this way I could see him setting up some kind of means to get out of the desert. More thinking out loud than anything. Unless he came along with Jacob over various years, being that he's the buffer between leader and Jacob. If Jacob knew Richard needed proof of Locke's being born, that might be how Richard got to Tustin CA. But did MIB follow, as some are speculating that it was he who either impregnated Locke's mom or tried to run her down on the road.
oh yeah, that's right, Michael got off via boat, i still think there may be another stargate (for lack of a better term) method to get off island, maybe somehow from Ben's hidden closet
Again, Locke was in the outrigger. That flash was their present, just like 1974 became their present. Been looking for a picture of that other boat, it wasn't a fluke in the background, maybe a trawler.
Greg, another jaw dropper would be that we do see another exit point from the Island. And that link you posted was interesting. It is true that Smokey does have three heads when it wants.
I'll try to help one more time, Greg, I know how time travel can be maddening.
Think of the Unstuck Island as the Delorean from BTTF. And in this analogy, Doc Brown, by himself, gets in it in 1985 and first goes to 2055 and then next to 1955.
And after ending up in 1955, the Delorean gets stuck there, permanently.
Now let's pretend that BTTF was using a self-consistent history of whatever happened, happened. That means that, even though Doc Brown is stuck in 1955, he will still 'show up' in 2055 because he already showed up there.
Because he's by himself, Doc would time travel relative to all observers who would witness it AFTER his time machine was broke.
So this is the same as seeing the Island as a time machine that become inactive (relative to fixed observers) before it was even used.
yes, i've thought all along the Looking Glass was a portal to Earth even extending it to that is where the sub goes to and from Earth, like an Island entrance and exit portal via the sub
I think that the sub was shown inside the moonpool in the LG blueprints, but I'd have to check to be sure.
I'm not sure what exactly I think about the LG. It had the beacon, so it seems it was a homing station for the island. But I'm not sure in what capacity. I think that the LG could have been either the actual portal, or just a structure connected to the island that guided the sub in after it went through a portal. ???
Speaking of the LG, it makes me think of all the destruction of the island and resources the Hostiles used including the LG, since the Losties arrived. The LG is presumably unusable now (at least for its main purpose) since Patchy flooded and damaged the lower moonpool section (if not more), with his grenade. Other stations, and many of the facilities within stations, have been wrecked too. Etc., etc. I'm wondering what the island's indigenous are going to have left to protect the island with after all is said and done. Assuming that is, that the island isn't blown to bits in S6. But it just seems like a lot of destruction of the island has been going on, since we "got there", so would the destruction be a part of Jacob's plan? It just makes me think even more that MIB has been thwarting Jacob's own "progress" by giving faulty instructions to the Hostiles/Others in the guise of Jacob.
About The War, I'm starting to think that when Widmore talks about it, he means the conflict of Jacob and MIB coming to it fullest form and capacity.
P.S. It stands to reason I guess, that since the islanders were using most of the DI's facilites, they will go back to the ancient ways of protecting it that they used before the modern world discovered the island and invaded it, i.e. Smokey, tree-net traps, Alex' ground traps, blowdarts, etc., until RA can recruit some more scientists from The World onto the island.
Capcom, that's my thought on the Hostiles, as well. People having been saying the statue came down because of Black Rock dynamite. The Hostiles needn't worry about the destruction of the DI stations. It's Jacob's progress, and if MIB is helping him in that manner, he is doing it bas-ackwards. If there is a LG portal, it's likely still there, LG or not. Richard and Ellie, etc., swam underneath a waterfall to get to the Temple, I can see someone living on an Island with exotic energy having lung power to actually swim to the spot. Plus, it may not have been as deep as the LG, the LG needed to be far enough below to surface to let the sub surface in the moon pool. In fact, the portal might be--perhaps in a state of flux--near the waterfall the 77ers were dropped into after the flash, with Ajira continuing on to Hydra in what might be an exact straight line towards magnetic north.
So, whereas a beacon is needed for the sub or another modern vessel, the area around the waterfall seems to be more of a magnet, which would extend to the caves and the beach camp. An interesting thought there if the 77ers landed where they did (minus Sayid) because they had already been on the Island through this means--the Swan failure pulling 815 down--does this explain the coffin being so far from the fuselage, because MIB/(Christian) had quite obviously been there as well?
I'm just a sucker for the idea of magnetic north figuring into the compass readings. I was intrigued when I saw that Tarawet is also goddess to the northern sky, and that's where the Crab nebula is, too. If the latter isn't a red herring, of sorts.
Perhaps the dress of the Hostiles figures into this. The ones dressed in beige and brown are descendants of the original indigenous tribe, those dressed in more modern clothing (the Others in the S5 finale is a great example) are more recent arrivals. I think Richard's true people always stayed at the Temple, and Ben, Juliet, Tom, etc., were using the DI buildings and Hydra for tasks.
Also, I've just finished rewatching the Can't Name The Episode where Sun sees Jin in the 1977 photo and they capture Sayid. Radzinsky has his BVDs in a bunch because he thinks a Hostile has seen not just the geodesic dome, but also the blueprint that shows that the DI were putting the Swan in their territory quite sneakily.
That part I find hard to believe. I want to believe that Jacob let the DI build in whatever grid# that was, I can't believe something so far as Richard's group having no idea what was going on.
Hmmm, we need to know where that waterfall is on the island map! D'oh!
I would really enjoy seeing MIB finding out that all his tricksy ways ended up merely delaying the positive work, or better yet possibly aiding it, in addition to him failing in his anti-productive course. (insert Nelson on the Simpsons giving his, "HAH-hahhh") :o)
Yes, it is difficult to believe that the islanders had no idea that the Swan was being built. Construction of a building can't be done quietly, and the Orchid was partially underground, with the Swan being mostly under, and it's really a stretch to believe that the Hostiles had no idea that all of that commotion was happening. No way, Jose.
Greg, is Austin really closer than Dallas for you? Just curious. I've taken a Greyhound from Tyler to Dallas and whenever I've been to Austin, I get picked up at DFW by my friend from Tyler and we drive to Austin.
Thunderstorm, I had a lot of trouble with 316. I know there has to be plot elements for the show to progress, but why Sayid ended up so close to the Flame is beyond me. Or why Sun stayed in 2007. Plot devices, I get that. But still contrived. When that episode first aired (msybe it was the end of "LeFleur"), I was pissed when Sawyer asks how Locke died and Jack dismissed it with "it doesn't matter." That kind of thing annoys me more than any of the contrivances from the flashes off the plane.
I don't like that either, Wayne. It's a very soap-opera-ish way to write, IMO. Also, when a character asks another character an important question, and there's just a pause and an extended "look", and then the scene changes. Also an old soap-opera tool that most TV shows (and movies) utilize today, even the good ones.
yes, Austin is much closer, it is not a problem to drive from Houston to Austin and back to Houston in the same day but to drive from Houston to Dallas and back in 1 day is a stretch
Lost does have it's soapy moments and with my luck that is the part my wife happens to glance at and looks at me like why the heck do you like this show
Looking at a map, it's hard to tell what is faster, Greg. Pretty much until you've done it. People will wonder why it takes longer via I-64 to get across WV than the whole of KY but they don't think of the mountains. And it was a longer drive BACK to FDW than TO Austin.
I get the need for plot devices and all longing glances, different demographics. But it does frost me when things happen like Locke blowing up the Flame but no one checking on Bea's body to see if she wasn't faking death, or when Locke supposedly blew up the sub, why didn't anyone say, John, why are you soaking wet? (I say supposedly because I don't believe he blew it up but sunk it and just blew up the dock, God knows why).
Again, its just a show, but I see more compassion and patience in Locke towards anyone during the time flashes than I did/still do from Jack towards Sawyer or Locke.
Wayne, LOL, i know you meant DFW (Dallas/Ft Worth airport) but maybe i should try to take the FDW to Dallas, it may be only an hour or so longer to get to Dallas but it seems grueling but also it's more exciting to go to Austin so it does not seem as far
i enjoy the soapy love triangle stuff as well as the more supernatual/scifi elements so i'm not dissing Lost it's just whenever my wife happens to see any of Lost is just so happens to be one of the nighttime soap opera scenes
Driving over to work, inspired by "Bad Twin" I thought of some twins (or even opposites like in a bizzaro world) on LOST.
Jack and John Locke -- gave his kidney away to his dad. I wonder if Christian died from kidney failure? Anyway, the whole science/faith thing.
Sawyer and Miles - yin and yang, both with penchant for one liners. Both had fathers gone early in childhood.
Kate and Juliet -- both in love with Sawyer; Kate is a criminal, Juliet is a borderline one with going beyond the ethics of her profession. Both had dysfunctional family situations with their parents.
Shannon and Claire - both had their men killed on the island.
Charlie and Sawyer - both like to con women.
Of course Ben and Charles Widmore.
Sayid and Desmond - both looking for their long lost love. Both military. Both having contact with that guy in the hatch.
Greg, I didn't even realize my typo. Ha. Austin is certainly cooler than Dallas. And, yea, one reason why I'll watch most everything by myself is that my dad cannot possibly get interested in something unless it it cop-related. He might enjoy the scenes in FLASHFWD (or FLASHFDW, ha ha), with the cop chase, but if he walked in and saw the blackouts, he'd shrug, and walk back out of the room. I watched that preview on Hulu earlier. I'm intrigued. That's a neat little thing you set up on FriendFeed. I'm on FF for a year now, but that's only so I could see different advertising campaigns from a friend's business in Turkey. Not that stuff is all over at FB.
"In the latest Official LOST Podcast, Gregg Nations joins host Kris White to discuss what LOST U has to offer. To answer the question most people are asking: you will need to have the BluRay to actively participate."
I automatically assumed LU was Blu-Ray, guys, because it says it on the Login page. I guess, too, because that fancy DI boxed set of S5 is only for Blu-Ray. Corporate greed is unavoidable. I'm just glad I'm not being made to buy an iPhone to be able to watch the show itself.
Oh, KoreAmBear, that's so easy. Tom said that to Arturo after Michael left the hotel room. About, you know...
No, wait. That's what Jack said at his dad's eulogy. Or was it at the O6 press conference? Q: Are you sure that there are no other survivors? A: Regulation...or Nerf?
Is that really the scene you meant, KoreAmBear? Tom/Kate? I was joking when I brought Tom into it. I was thinking it might have been a reference to the golf course.
I remember when Big mentioned thinking Sayid's story was over. The episode I started into last night was the Sayid/Ilana tale. As much as I like Sayid, after he killed the Russian guy and Ben told him his work was done, all I thought was 1/if Ben is manipulating him, I don't care anymore and 2/if Ben ISN'T manipulating him, I STILL don't care. Likely because it was one of those threads I'd like to know more about, who exactly were these hits in relation to Widmore and what they did for him and in what capacity.
Wayne - actually I was playing along with your fascination with the Tom/Arturo relationship.
Actually, "regulation or Nerf" came from Deux Ex Machina where Locke's fake mom (wait, that wasn't the real Emily was it?) asked Locke where the footballs were at Walmart. Locke then responded with a little too much detail for a Walmart salesperson, "regulation or Nerf?" There you have it.
I hope this is the case - even if noT canon in the historical context of this season; the fact they filmed it must mean that this 'duplication' idea was intended at some stage.
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 271 of 271 Newer› Newest»I'm a little confused. How could the outrigger shooting take place BEFORE Jacob's sacrifice? Remember, our Losties take the outrigger from the Island, not Hydra. Also, none of Ilana's people is wounded when we see them at the cabin and statue.
I think the group at the statue will divide into two factions: those who follow Locke, and those who stay with Ilana and Co. The latter will chase the former but become confused when a third Locke (two living, one dead) appears due to the time flashing.
I never understood what the confusion there was either given the fact that there was two outriggers at the beach camp and one with the Ajira water bottle. The group shooting at Sawyer goup would have had to witness the boat leaving and followed them until within shooting distance. Highly doubtful this happened pre Jacob sacrifice.
I think that I would guess that it happened afterwards also and something that happened in the future that we haven't seen yet, but not sure. I can't wait until the moment when TPTB show us who was shooting at them, our jaws are probably going to drop.
oh DUH! the time we saw Illana paddle up with Locke in the box, they were coming FROM Hydra to The Island
sorry, i was thinking the outrigger shooting could have happened right before Illana & crew and Locke in a box paddled up to shore
DUH! thanks for setting me straight
Locke in a box, lol. I like the word play/image.
i need to get around to rewatching season 5 or at least The Incident to refresh my feeble brain
btw, i setup a friendfeed newsfeed that covers mainly Lost and Fringe and a variety of general TV blogs, i think the spoilers are pretty well marked
Lost,Fringe,TV news
FRINGE is off to a BANGING start
i rewatched the last 3 eps of Dollhouse, the first few eps sucked IMHO but the last 3 made up for it and i'm ready for it to start back up, i think Friday, the unaired ep was ok but not really necessary
part of what is throwing me off is the outrigger shootout happened AFTER Locke fixed the FDW by putting it back on it's axis
so i can't help but wonder why they still flashed but i suppose i'm over-thinking it
Oh.
Hmmm, I need to go back and watch that.
On that S5 map, the order of the time flashes (and when or 'unknown time') are marked. The Ajira people originating on Hydra does make it confusing, and I'll bet when we do see the scene, it will be from the 2nd outrigger's POV. What would make that scenario interesting, is the reason why they would feel the need to shoot.
I know it was only Locke and Ben when they left Hydra, but I was thinking a good scenario would be the 77ers showing up on Hydra in time to see Ben shoot Cesar. It just doesn't work, though, and no one had a gun at the end of S5 near the Swan. Unless, between S5 and S6 Sawyer grabs a rifle from dead Phil (maybe to shoot Radzinsky) and they see Cesar dead and the other guys that were near Cesar tell them about the other boat, but don't say how many are there. But that stretches it a bit. Still, I don't see that scene with Jack and Cesar as throwaway. Plus, Locke told Cesar Ben was the one who killed him, that he'd been on the Island a hundred days, etc. If Cesar is somehow alive, he would tell Jack enough for Jack to do his Jack-face double take (fingers to forehead, rapid blinking, slight drool) and say WTF? Then play leader and get everyone in boat#2. Because he is Jack.
I had to double check and make sure the season premiere of Fringe wasn't written by Chris Carter.
You know what I did, folks? In my downtime I read all 17 transcripts of Season 5 (they are more detailed at Lost-Tv, with action often described, versus those @ Lostpedia).
So my Season 5 recap (in that context) only took about 4 hours. Granted, it's not a very 'filling' context. But it helped me to iron some things out. Besides, it was fun, almost like reading a book.
Anyhow...
Who shot the person in the second (trailing) outrigger? Was it Juliet?
What would create the most irony?
Conceivably she could have shot anyone on the show...but in order to make it rich or cruel irony, or perhaps even sweet vengeance of some kind...
I'm thinking Ben makes the most sense and given his importance to the mythology...is it not conceivable that this scene could be quite near the series finale?
Greg, to your question. It is analogous to the Flocke-Richard-Locke-compass scene.
In that, Richard and Flocke are the 'shooters who got shot' and real Locke, who got shot by Ethan is like Juliet and her group. One group is 'fixed' in time and one is unstuck.
And this experience is relative to Broken Leg Locke, who set the wheel 'straight' in ancient times and those left behind were stuck in 1974. So they all became unstuck in the first place (January 2005) AFTER Locke set the wheel straight.
I think that made sense. :)
Wait, weren't the flashes still happening on the canoe, because another flash happened while they were getting shot at and they landed in a downpour, didn't they? Obviously I didn't rewatch it yet, or I wouldn't have to be asking, heheh.
LOL about Jackface, Wayne.
LOL about Fringe/Carter, Thunderstorm.
What would blow my mind, is if they are following and shooting at themselves in the canoes! :-o
Yes flashes still happening during canoe scene. They were going to the Orchid so John could end it and get off the Island.
Greg: Do you mean the outrigger flash took place years (maybe centuries) in linear time after Locke turned the Wheel? If so, then most, if not all, of the flashes took place "after" Locke turned the Wheel. But Locke hadn't yet turned the Wheel from his own perspective -- they were headed for the Orchid when the shooting started.
On an unrelated note, do people think that stash of passports and currency is the same stash Ben has on the Island? If so, why does Ben retrieve it from the wall in the desert? Did he simply hide them behind the rock while he disposed of the Bedouin bodies?
Ben takes care of every angle. He would have a stash there if events led to him being thrown off the Island unexpectedly.
That's what I thought too. Ben keeps a stash of various IDs and cash anywhere that he might pop up in time or space, just in case he doesn't go back to his stash in the cottage before "traveling".
So does that mean Ben--well I guess he never lied about himself implicitly, because no one ever asked him directly--went off Island before to put the passports there. I was thinking maybe Richard or someone else at least started the money stash, because the passports need to be new, etc. How did Richard see Locke being born in 1956, then visit him in 1962? The same way Widmore was leaving the Island (however the manner), as they didn't have the sub until 1992? I suppose we'll get anything about Richard from his episode, so any time I speculate when Richard comes up, I try not to think I'll be disappointed by his -centric 42 minutes. A nice linear 150 Years in the Life of Alpert--a simple linear story-- would work best.
Re: the outrigger scene, I guess the options really change for every episode that goes by before S6 ends. That flash led directly to the 1988 flash where they find the B612 (that right?) box of the science team washed on shore.
I'm up to the episode after LeFleur in re-watching, so it will just about be Kate making stupid decisions every 15 minutes soon enough. I do get to hear my "Ride, Captain, Ride" song when they show up at the processing center.
Big, a good post might be on the outrigger shootout, with bullet points on the two or three (or more) implications both before and after.
Yes, I suppose it could have been anyone who might have had the job to disperse the necessary "Hostile" equipment around the world, as well as the person who's actually doing the travel. I don't suppose that Hostiles were leaving the island willynilly, but we know that Ben, Tom, and RA did for various tasks.
Well, I'm guessing Ben, Tom, etc. used the Galaga after 1992. And there's no reason to think that Ben and crew did not simply travel to Tunisia from Portland (or w/e) and plant money and passports. Crazy thought, what if that pile of rock is similar to the well, maybe covered up by sand inside. The exotic energy would appear underground and burp anyone onto the surface. Maybe centuries ago, the area was clear of winds, like in the talk of water marks on the Sphinx indicating climate change.
I'm reading a book that mentions a hurricane hitting Grenada. Perhaps the meteorology station was set up (and...perhaps it is called THE LAMP POST, just came into my head), to gauge speed and wind direction over water, and we have seen those Island coordinates change on that tote board. That could be the missing DI station everyone hopes to see on the map. Or, if there is one on the Island, it just gets a readout of the coordinates, but that could have been handled at the Flame, or better yet, the Looking Glass, so the sub could get the right compass heading.
Capcom, juliet1 shooting juliet1a would blow my mind
yes, Thunderstorm, i have the same issue with the Flocke-Richard-Locke compass thingy
i'm saying like everybody else the outrigger shootout is shortly after Ben sacrifices Jacob
but i still have a little issue with both of those 2 scenes happening at the same time as the when the FDW was already fixed, but i'll get over it
if the fixed FDW got them fixed in time (1974) why would they still be unstuck in time in (2007/2008) after Ajira since the FWD was fixed
but i'll go with they remained unstuck in time even though they existed in a time wherein time was fixed
yeah, i agree there are stashes of passports, money and such in different places on earth for Richard, Tom, Ben, Ethan, Widmore (anybody else we have seen off island during their on island timeframe)
not counting Jacob
i think the sub is not the only way to travel to and from the island (i mean other than using FDW)
I am sure Ben was the only one who had a stash of passports and money. Given his paranoia and manipulations. Especially after Widmore was booted from the Island. Ben must have put up protective measures and fail safes, so to speak. In other words, if it could happen to Widmore it can happen to me(Ben). They others Tom, Ethan were sent to do tasks. I have a hard time believing Ben would let them go without permission. So they had no need for a stash.
As far as Richard goes, I can't imagine he would be to worried about such things. Given he has been a part of the Island for so long. Any venture for him would have a specific purpose: young Locke, Juliet, etc, al.
So, Ben was the stash keeper and Ben alone.
ok neoloki makes sense
but is is right we have only seen Richard, Tom and Ethan off island during their time as an Other and it is implied Ben and Widmore spent time off island during their time as Others, any Others i'm forgetting
i'm assuming the times we have seen Ellie off island she was permanently off island
Greg, in relation to the outriggers, regardless of when they occurred, it was their present, correct? Doesn't matter if Locke turning the wheel is after, well, whenever, as there were several rapid shifts before Charlotte died. Locke was in the outrigger, so that was "the present" at the time.
Ben's the pack rat for sure, though maybe we did see another method of travel besides the Galaga and the FDW. I'd forgotten. I recall there being another boat besides the goofy one they gave Michael & Walt. Like a small yacht or something? Nothing ever explained, just visible around the time of the viking funeral for Colleen.
When I mentioned Richard, its more in the context of exactly how he went to visit Locke as a baby. Via the wheel? In this way I could see him setting up some kind of means to get out of the desert. More thinking out loud than anything. Unless he came along with Jacob over various years, being that he's the buffer between leader and Jacob. If Jacob knew Richard needed proof of Locke's being born, that might be how Richard got to Tustin CA. But did MIB follow, as some are speculating that it was he who either impregnated Locke's mom or tried to run her down on the road.
oh yeah, that's right, Michael got off via boat, i still think there may be another stargate (for lack of a better term) method to get off island, maybe somehow from Ben's hidden closet
Greg said: "but i'll go with they remained unstuck in time even though they existed in a time wherein time was fixed." That works for me!
X-D
interesting idea
"the female entity is...Christian... She was quick to take physical form"
Again, Locke was in the outrigger. That flash was their present, just like 1974 became their present. Been looking for a picture of that other boat, it wasn't a fluke in the background, maybe a trawler.
Greg, another jaw dropper would be that we do see another exit point from the Island. And that link you posted was interesting. It is true that Smokey does have three heads when it wants.
I'll try to help one more time, Greg, I know how time travel can be maddening.
Think of the Unstuck Island as the Delorean from BTTF. And in this analogy, Doc Brown, by himself, gets in it in 1985 and first goes to 2055 and then next to 1955.
And after ending up in 1955, the Delorean gets stuck there, permanently.
Now let's pretend that BTTF was using a self-consistent history of whatever happened, happened. That means that, even though Doc Brown is stuck in 1955, he will still 'show up' in 2055 because he already showed up there.
Because he's by himself, Doc would time travel relative to all observers who would witness it AFTER his time machine was broke.
So this is the same as seeing the Island as a time machine that become inactive (relative to fixed observers) before it was even used.
Wayne, there is a cool idea floating around in the LOST 'ether' that the Looking Glass had a portal entry.
This would have been so much cooler than the way 316 was used to bring them back, IMO.
Especially how Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid were 'zapped' into the past.
Still waiting for full context of that scene before I call it my least favorite LOST moment ever.
yes, i've thought all along the Looking Glass was a portal to Earth even extending it to that is where the sub goes to and from Earth, like an Island entrance and exit portal via the sub
actually, didn't we see some schematics that showed the sub in the Looking Glass or did i just dream that?
dang! i missed 2 questions on the Lost University Entrance Exam BUT i've been accepted
ENROLL NOW
I think that the sub was shown inside the moonpool in the LG blueprints, but I'd have to check to be sure.
I'm not sure what exactly I think about the LG. It had the beacon, so it seems it was a homing station for the island. But I'm not sure in what capacity. I think that the LG could have been either the actual portal, or just a structure connected to the island that guided the sub in after it went through a portal. ???
this clip shows the outrigger flashing into rainstorm scene and is a nice summary
but i did not have to score a 23 out of 23 to view it, i got 21 out 0f 23
Lost 101
btw, the Lost University questions and correct answers are online at a website we've discussed here before
Speaking of the LG, it makes me think of all the destruction of the island and resources the Hostiles used including the LG, since the Losties arrived. The LG is presumably unusable now (at least for its main purpose) since Patchy flooded and damaged the lower moonpool section (if not more), with his grenade. Other stations, and many of the facilities within stations, have been wrecked too. Etc., etc. I'm wondering what the island's indigenous are going to have left to protect the island with after all is said and done. Assuming that is, that the island isn't blown to bits in S6. But it just seems like a lot of destruction of the island has been going on, since we "got there", so would the destruction be a part of Jacob's plan? It just makes me think even more that MIB has been thwarting Jacob's own "progress" by giving faulty instructions to the Hostiles/Others in the guise of Jacob.
About The War, I'm starting to think that when Widmore talks about it, he means the conflict of Jacob and MIB coming to it fullest form and capacity.
Thanks for the ODI link Greg.
P.S. It stands to reason I guess, that since the islanders were using most of the DI's facilites, they will go back to the ancient ways of protecting it that they used before the modern world discovered the island and invaded it, i.e. Smokey, tree-net traps, Alex' ground traps, blowdarts, etc., until RA can recruit some more scientists from The World onto the island.
Capcom, that's my thought on the Hostiles, as well. People having been saying the statue came down because of Black Rock dynamite. The Hostiles needn't worry about the destruction of the DI stations. It's Jacob's progress, and if MIB is helping him in that manner, he is doing it bas-ackwards. If there is a LG portal, it's likely still there, LG or not. Richard and Ellie, etc., swam underneath a waterfall to get to the Temple, I can see someone living on an Island with exotic energy having lung power to actually swim to the spot. Plus, it may not have been as deep as the LG, the LG needed to be far enough below to surface to let the sub surface in the moon pool. In fact, the portal might be--perhaps in a state of flux--near the waterfall the 77ers were dropped into after the flash, with Ajira continuing on to Hydra in what might be an exact straight line towards magnetic north.
So, whereas a beacon is needed for the sub or another modern vessel, the area around the waterfall seems to be more of a magnet, which would extend to the caves and the beach camp. An interesting thought there if the 77ers landed where they did (minus Sayid) because they had already been on the Island through this means--the Swan failure pulling 815 down--does this explain the coffin being so far from the fuselage, because MIB/(Christian) had quite obviously been there as well?
I'm just a sucker for the idea of magnetic north figuring into the compass readings. I was intrigued when I saw that Tarawet is also goddess to the northern sky, and that's where the Crab nebula is, too. If the latter isn't a red herring, of sorts.
Perhaps the dress of the Hostiles figures into this. The ones dressed in beige and brown are descendants of the original indigenous tribe, those dressed in more modern clothing (the Others in the S5 finale is a great example) are more recent arrivals. I think Richard's true people always stayed at the Temple, and Ben, Juliet, Tom, etc., were using the DI buildings and Hydra for tasks.
Also, I've just finished rewatching the Can't Name The Episode where Sun sees Jin in the 1977 photo and they capture Sayid. Radzinsky has his BVDs in a bunch because he thinks a Hostile has seen not just the geodesic dome, but also the blueprint that shows that the DI were putting the Swan in their territory quite sneakily.
That part I find hard to believe. I want to believe that Jacob let the DI build in whatever grid# that was, I can't believe something so far as Richard's group having no idea what was going on.
the're actually having a DamonCarltonandaPolarBear.com event in Dallas but it is way too far to go for me, if it was Houston or Austin i'd be there
6th DCaaPB artwork to be unveiled tonight
Hmmm, we need to know where that waterfall is on the island map! D'oh!
I would really enjoy seeing MIB finding out that all his tricksy ways ended up merely delaying the positive work, or better yet possibly aiding it, in addition to him failing in his anti-productive course. (insert Nelson on the Simpsons giving his, "HAH-hahhh") :o)
Yes, it is difficult to believe that the islanders had no idea that the Swan was being built. Construction of a building can't be done quietly, and the Orchid was partially underground, with the Swan being mostly under, and it's really a stretch to believe that the Hostiles had no idea that all of that commotion was happening. No way, Jose.
Aw man, Greg, so close!
Greg, is Austin really closer than Dallas for you? Just curious. I've taken a Greyhound from Tyler to Dallas and whenever I've been to Austin, I get picked up at DFW by my friend from Tyler and we drive to Austin.
Thunderstorm, I had a lot of trouble with 316. I know there has to be plot elements for the show to progress, but why Sayid ended up so close to the Flame is beyond me. Or why Sun stayed in 2007. Plot devices, I get that. But still contrived. When that episode first aired (msybe it was the end of "LeFleur"), I was pissed when Sawyer asks how Locke died and Jack dismissed it with "it doesn't matter." That kind of thing annoys me more than any of the contrivances from the flashes off the plane.
I don't like that either, Wayne. It's a very soap-opera-ish way to write, IMO. Also, when a character asks another character an important question, and there's just a pause and an extended "look", and then the scene changes. Also an old soap-opera tool that most TV shows (and movies) utilize today, even the good ones.
:-p
yes, Austin is much closer, it is not a problem to drive from Houston to Austin and back to Houston in the same day but to drive from Houston to Dallas and back in 1 day is a stretch
Lost does have it's soapy moments and with my luck that is the part my wife happens to glance at and looks at me like why the heck do you like this show
Looking at a map, it's hard to tell what is faster, Greg. Pretty much until you've done it. People will wonder why it takes longer via I-64 to get across WV than the whole of KY but they don't think of the mountains. And it was a longer drive BACK to FDW than TO Austin.
I get the need for plot devices and all longing glances, different demographics. But it does frost me when things happen like Locke blowing up the Flame but no one checking on Bea's body to see if she wasn't faking death, or when Locke supposedly blew up the sub, why didn't anyone say, John, why are you soaking wet? (I say supposedly because I don't believe he blew it up but sunk it and just blew up the dock, God knows why).
Again, its just a show, but I see more compassion and patience in Locke towards anyone during the time flashes than I did/still do from Jack towards Sawyer or Locke.
Wayne, LOL, i know you meant DFW (Dallas/Ft Worth airport) but maybe i should try to take the FDW to Dallas, it may be only an hour or so longer to get to Dallas but it seems grueling but also it's more exciting to go to Austin so it does not seem as far
i enjoy the soapy love triangle stuff as well as the more supernatual/scifi elements so i'm not dissing Lost it's just whenever my wife happens to see any of Lost is just so happens to be one of the nighttime soap opera scenes
Whackadoo! Whackadoo!
Driving over to work, inspired by "Bad Twin" I thought of some twins (or even opposites like in a bizzaro world) on LOST.
Jack and John Locke -- gave his kidney away to his dad. I wonder if Christian died from kidney failure? Anyway, the whole science/faith thing.
Sawyer and Miles - yin and yang, both with penchant for one liners. Both had fathers gone early in childhood.
Kate and Juliet -- both in love with Sawyer; Kate is a criminal, Juliet is a borderline one with going beyond the ethics of her profession. Both had dysfunctional family situations with their parents.
Shannon and Claire - both had their men killed on the island.
Charlie and Sawyer - both like to con women.
Of course Ben and Charles Widmore.
Sayid and Desmond - both looking for their long lost love. Both military. Both having contact with that guy in the hatch.
Miles and Charlotte- both born on the island.
Faraday and Dr. Chau?
Greg, I didn't even realize my typo. Ha. Austin is certainly cooler than Dallas. And, yea, one reason why I'll watch most everything by myself is that my dad cannot possibly get interested in something unless it it cop-related. He might enjoy the scenes in FLASHFWD (or FLASHFDW, ha ha), with the cop chase, but if he walked in and saw the blackouts, he'd shrug, and walk back out of the room. I watched that preview on Hulu earlier. I'm intrigued. That's a neat little thing you set up on FriendFeed. I'm on FF for a year now, but that's only so I could see different advertising campaigns from a friend's business in Turkey. Not that stuff is all over at FB.
Heheh, like the bear cage lovin', Greg?
Neat Koreambear!
BOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"In the latest Official LOST Podcast, Gregg Nations joins host Kris White to discuss what LOST U has to offer. To answer the question most people are asking: you will need to have the BluRay to actively participate."
Double-Boo! With a twist of Hiss on the side.
:-(
I've read that you can play BluRay DVDs on PS3, if anyone has that. Not me.
I automatically assumed LU was Blu-Ray, guys, because it says it on the Login page. I guess, too, because that fancy DI boxed set of S5 is only for Blu-Ray. Corporate greed is unavoidable. I'm just glad I'm not being made to buy an iPhone to be able to watch the show itself.
Ya got that right, Wayne!
Trivia time:
Who said the immortal words --
"Regulation? or Nerf?"
And what ep.? Winner gets . . . to time flash to 1977 and free English lessons from Jin.
Oh, KoreAmBear, that's so easy. Tom said that to Arturo after Michael left the hotel room. About, you know...
No, wait. That's what Jack said at his dad's eulogy. Or was it at the O6 press conference? Q: Are you sure that there are no other survivors? A: Regulation...or Nerf?
@Wayne you got it. When Tom told Kate, "you're not my type", he strictly was talking about regulation or Nerf. He obviously likes Nerf.
sounds like they MAY find a way for us without BluRay
"As for the Blu-Ray dilemma, we are working on alternate solutions for those of you who don't have a Blu-Ray player or a PS3."
That would be nice.
Capcom (Google won't let me sign in)
P.S. There's also sure to be peeps like DarkUFO who will post whatever LU videos can be posted, online for everyone to see.
Me again.
Is that really the scene you meant, KoreAmBear? Tom/Kate? I was joking when I brought Tom into it. I was thinking it might have been a reference to the golf course.
I remember when Big mentioned thinking Sayid's story was over. The episode I started into last night was the Sayid/Ilana tale. As much as I like Sayid, after he killed the Russian guy and Ben told him his work was done, all I thought was 1/if Ben is manipulating him, I don't care anymore and 2/if Ben ISN'T manipulating him, I STILL don't care. Likely because it was one of those threads I'd like to know more about, who exactly were these hits in relation to Widmore and what they did for him and in what capacity.
The new poster is of the statue legs, and extremely minimalist.
Wayne - actually I was playing along with your fascination with the Tom/Arturo relationship.
Actually, "regulation or Nerf" came from Deux Ex Machina where Locke's fake mom (wait, that wasn't the real Emily was it?) asked Locke where the footballs were at Walmart. Locke then responded with a little too much detail for a Walmart salesperson, "regulation or Nerf?" There you have it.
That was Emily, Locke's Mom.
rainy day Lost video
Lost spirits
FlashFoward starts tonite
Nice video. And that tree that Eko is under is amazing, I never noticed it before.
yep, i noticed the tree, it looked impressive on film, 1 wanted to climb it
this is a good read
Alive Again
and Big has a new post up in case y'all haven't seen it yet
Thanks Greg!
I hope this is the case - even if noT canon in the historical context of this season; the fact they filmed it must mean that this 'duplication' idea was intended at some stage.
I really hope this means that OG Locke survives!
not if it was edited because of the appearance of what could be construed as Ben or the image was simply out of sequence.
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