Thursday, November 19, 2009

Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

Due to popular demand, I've created a separate post for spoiler discussions.  Feel free to post your spoiler speculations about Season 6, but please limit your discussion of them to this post, and this post only.  As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

380 comments:

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Thunderstorm said...

What would you guys think of the idea that the ALT reality is a "reset" that hasn't taken place yet?

That Jughead is a misdirection with regard to this ALT scenario.

Daniel had the right idea but the wrong execution (as Damon told ODI back in October).

I've been trying to think of another work of fiction that employed this idea but I'm having trouble.

Showing the 'reset' before it actually happens. In that matter, the story would likely end (in this ALT universe) before it actually ends for us (we see what caused the "reset" alt reality). Seems very LOST to me, Effect before Cause, the Jughead curveball, no 'Wonderful Life' wasting time accusation etc. I dunno...

Would you like or dislike the idea?

Thunderstorm said...

Anyhow, if the ALT is a Wonderful Life scenario, as always has been my strongest bet until recently (see above) I don't know who the constant 'viewer' would be?

Who is the 'George Bailey' and why aren't they there watching each of these ALT scenes play out?

How would it then be a lesson? Would it be a 'pull back' at the end which showed Jacob showing all of this to some character? Jack? Juliet? Would that work? I guess it could.

It's all very confusing. I'm just glad that reading spoilers isn't all that much more enlightening than wild guessing. Other than tidbits like Ilana being Jacob's daughter.

Speaking of, how can Jacob have a daughter unless he's human? Super alien? God's mating with humans?

I've also been getting a Paradise Lost feel lately, although I'd have to re-read it to try and talk much about it in detail.

Capcom said...

Well, if Jacob is one of the "sons of God" or a fallen angel who "hooked up", as we say, witha human woman, he could have half human children, sometimes called Nephilim.

Genesis6:1-4: "...when men began to multiply on the face of the land...the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose...the Nephilim were on the earth in those days...when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them." That's one thought on what Nephilim could be anyway. People were posting about just this a few season ago right after we saw Four Toes, even me. Heheh, we were so niave back then.

This could even fall into the category of an "alien on an asteroid fallen onto the earth like an island" entity as well.

What exactly does spoiler speculation mean? Expanded guesses made (beyond the usual specs) after seeing a little bit of spoiler info? Tx.

Bigmouth said...

Capcom: Spoiler speculation just means what we ordinarily do -- i.e., discuss the show -- with freedom to mention and link to spoilers.

Capcom said...

OK, so including found-spoilers, tx. For some reason, today I don't care too much if I see spoilers.

:-o

Thunderstorm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thunderstorm said...

Yeah, Cap, I get the "fallen angels" vibe. Maybe I am predisposed, I was a big Art Bell/UFO junkie in my 20's, Mostly I was interested in ancient astronauts. Speaking of, I think could definitely be in play. "Nephilim" are part of some of the more wacky Ancient Astronaut theories. Fun stuff, but I think I've just gotten more skeptical with old age.

I think using any such device could (and maybe would) be written ambiguous enough to cover the 'angels' and 'aliens' and most in between.

I doubt they'd get super specific, unless, that is of course, we get a spaceship or something in the temple. :)

Capcom said...

I agree, I could get into an ambiguous treatment of some kind of other-wordly being. I'd almost prefer if they gloss over the details to an extent. I wouldn't want TPTB to gloss over the entities' involvement with the earthlings though, i.e., making contact throughout history, etc., but their own personal history I might be able to do without.

Yes, I was very into the Bell and Von Daniken type theories myself.

neoloki said...

Am I the only one who is taking some of these spoilers with a grain of salt? I mean the pics, casting details, episode name's and certain other's seem to be coming from good sources, but many of the other's could easily be foiler's or just people trying to keep their web-site interesting.

Thunderstorm said...

Did you guys see, HIC is not in the main cast? Is Desmond finished?

Neoloki, I don't take any of it as gospel, really. Outside of the more obvious stuff that you mentioned. (Pics, casting calls and episode titles)

I've never read more than casting news and episode titles until this season (I feared they were going to ruin the show and caved in). So, I don't know how accurate it should be.

All I know is that common sense says that a lot of context must be missing.

And judging from the responses in comment sections at Dark or on forums like Fuselage, I am reminded that people can easily take something 'spoilery' and run with it in any different direction. So I don't know how reliable these could be, short of reading a script. Or talking directly to someone who has read the script?

I am curious as to what others think. I hope they agree with you, neoloki. Otherwise, it seems to easy that this stuff is leaking out. I can see not being able to 'protect' filming an "LAX" landing scene, the set would be HUGE. But other smaller details?

Bigmouth said...

The timing of some of theses spoilers is really throwing me. Did you guys see the spoiler re Sawyer and Charlotte? That has to take place after the alternate timelines resolve themselves. Maybe they will flash to different times to perform important tasks before returning to the future. That would be a great opportunity for Hurley to plant Charlie's guitar...

Still, Dark's site is pretty reliable. There are always a few foilers...but only a few.

Thunderstorm said...

The latest info about the Sawyer scene sort of evokes another "we have to go back" thing.

Would they really do this again?
I would doubt it.

Two questions for those of you reading spoilers last season.

What was the biggest spoiler from last season that turned out to be true?

And vice versa, turned out to be untrue.

neoloki said...

It almost seems some "exit", in what ever form, the ALT before others, e.g., Miles first, then the rest, but we still have Sawyer possibly "off Island" and Kate. Unless a few of them get back by other means, boat, and are able to find the Island because their is only one Island; If it is an inter dimensional nexus. So we would have the Sawyer from an ALT universe on the same Island as Jack from the original time line. Maybe an ALT Widmore too.

I have have no idea, but it is pretty exciting being this far into the spoiler season and still having no idea of how things are laid out.

Thunderstorm
I did not read as many spoilers last year. I generally stayed away from them. So, I only remember two instances were certain things were reported to happen in an episode that was way off. I do not remember the specifics. I would need to go digging through Darks site.

Bigmouth said...

Interesting story regarding one of the biggest spoilers from last year that turned out to be a foiler...or did it? In Three Black Swans, I speculated that the end of LOST would involve Aaron and Ji-Yeon marrying some time around 2031. My reasoning was that the Valenzetti Equation appears to have a 27-year countdown, and 2031 is 27 years after 2004. Thereafter, in the course of my googling, I stumbled upon this old FOILER about a short scene with Aaron and Ji-Yeon that takes place on the Island in...drum roll please...2030!

Greg Tramel said...

yeah Capcom, we've speculated before about the Others being Nephilim and it that vain i think Jacob could be a Watcher, some people think 2012 will usher in a return of The Watchers

Greg Tramel said...

i'm wondering about Sawyer telling Charlotte he wants to be on that boat

does he mean the freighter or the sub?

would the freighter make the trip to the Island in the primary reality?

Greg Tramel said...

yes Neoloki, i do think some are foilers, i'm tempted to think Illana being Jacob's daughter is a foiler, guess we will just have to wait to see

i think i remember reading some of he season 6 spoilers being outed as foilers already

neoloki said...

greg
there was an update to that spoiler saying the boat is not the freighter

Greg Tramel said...

i didn't read spoilers at all last year except 1 i kinda stumbled onto accidentally about Sayid shooting little Ben before that ep aired

for some reason i have in my mind that in the primary timeline they have memories of their ALT timeline (what we've seen so far)and that is why Sawyer wants to get on the boat (or sub) but maybe i'm thinking it all wrong

Greg Tramel said...

oh, just saw your post neoloki, so would it be the sub sawyer wants on?

Greg Tramel said...

and i guess they call them The Observers in Fringe instead of The Watchers but i don't think they mate with earthlings UNLESS that was August's daughter

Capcom said...

Dark usually puts foilery items in the Rumors section until they are confirmed by his sources, whatever that entails.

The Sawyer and CSL thing is very curious. Unless someone hits the FDW again, I can't imagine how that's going to happen, and can't wait to find out on the show how they do that.

Greg Tramel said...

a few people think somebody truned the FDW at the end of season 5 (i added Ellie)

Greg Tramel said...

dang, Moon on DVD is not going to be out until jan 2010

did any see the Impact miniseries on TV this summer?

Moon news

Greg Tramel said...

maybe Sawyer wants to get on he boat to get back to the island for Juliet

these days i have no idea when each timeline begins and ends

guess the alt timeline began with Locke's mother pregnant with him

then would Black Rock happen in the primary timeline or are y'all thinking Balck Rock happend in the alt timeline? or both?

in which timeline was the statue built?

Greg Tramel said...

i supose anything that happend on the island is not bound by timelines

so would there be 2 earth timelines, 1 with Richard visitng Locke at birth and one without Richard visiting Locke

Bigmouth said...

Here's further evidence that the Aaron and Ji-Yeon scene described on Dark UFO was not a foiler. If they've filmed a final scene, I think this is it.

Regarding recent spoilers, I wonder if they're building to some terrorism plot line in the "ALT" (still hate that term...) reality. Perhaps Sawyer is investigating some catastrophic event being planned by Widmore.

neoloki said...

What about Sawyer working with Widmore. Especially, if they have any awareness of their "other" selves. Or Widmore needs these people on the Island and is helping Sawyer to "remember".

How do you feel about Sawyer being a cop? Is it a con?

neoloki said...

I am still leaning towards Widmore being a "good guy" and Ben "not so good".

Bigmouth said...

I think Sawyer as a cop may be a clue he was ALWAYS supposed to evolve from criminal to law enforcement ala Frank Abagnale. In the secondary (i.e., S1-5 timeline), that evolution takes place in 1977 Dharmaville because of time travel. In the primary (i.e., S6) timeline the SAME evolution takes place in 2004.

Now that I think about it, we don't even know if Sawyer's reference to the "Island" is the LOST Island. It could easily refer to some other Island (e.g., Fernando Poo) that's at the heart of some global conspiracy involving Widmore.

Bigmouth said...

PS: I'm coming back around to your view that Widmore may be a good guy. I'm beginning to think usurping Widmore's leadership was part of MIB's Loophole.

neoloki said...

I am alright with the ALT character's knowing about the Island just not a scenario where they have to get back via boat or plane and it is a major plot point. That would just be too redundant.

That spoiler with Red and Sawyer still seems off to me.

neoloki said...

I will post this over here but who is Fernando Poo?

Bigmouth said...

Oh, totally agree -- enough with the "we have to go back" crap.

Fernando Poo (aka Fernando Po, aka Bioko) is a small sland in Equatorial Guinea. It's also the center of an international conspiracy in Robert Anton Wilson's Illuminatus trilogy, which is a huge influence on LOST.

Greg Tramel said...

yes, i've thought Widemore was a good guy for a long time but asking Ben to kill baby Alex gives me doubts

wait, Big i think you confused me (which is WAY too easy for me)but i thought we were saying the terrorist event might happen in the primary(S6)reality

guess we could call season 1-5 timeline 1/5T and season 6 timeline 6T

the only problem with that is i think we have seen some season 6 events already (actually we know we have seen a season 6 event - the outrigger shootings) if that Jughead and/or The Incident is the dividing line between S15T & 6T

Greg Tramel said...

AH Big, i did not remember RAW
Fernando Poo

i read it a long long time ago, maybe i need to reread

Bigmouth said...

Greg: That's exactly what I mean -- sorry for the confusion. S1-5 is the true "alternate" reality, while the spoiler reality from S6 is "primary."

neoloki said...

Thanks, Big.

those books seem to follow me for a number of years, popping up as a reference to this or that and friends seem to always be reading them, but I never picked 'em up myself.

Bigmouth said...

What if there's also a Jughead on an Island in the primary timeline and some group wants it to commit an act of terrorism? Maybe events will parallel the Incident after all...

Bigmouth said...

Holy cow...what if THAT'S what Sawyer and Miles are investigating?

Capcom said...

I didn't see Impact, it conflicted with something else, I wish they'd rerun it. I wonder why they're waiting so long to release Moon?

I forgot about Ellie and the FDW, Greg.

Heheh, right Sawyer as Abagnale, it's perfect. :-)

I'm almost totally on board with the Ben=Bad(or at least used for Bad), Widmore=Good-ish, with MIB needing Wid off-island to make his plan work. Wid may have been born a hotheaded jerk, but may not have been pliable enough for MIB to use, like he could so easily with Bennie who was so needy in his early days, like Locke.

lostmio said...

woohoo, Big, thanx for this spoiler spot! It's impossible to theorize anything w/o including the S6 spoilers.

imho, Damon tipped their hand in this interview last January, when he said
".... if you went back in time and tried to kill Hitler, you would fail, because Hitler wasn't assassinated. What would happen if you were in the past and tried to change the present as you knew it, would you A)Fail, or B)Succeed, or C)Cause the thing you were trying to prevent. And that's really interesting to us, because there's no (do-over's)."

Miles spoke for Darlton: by detonating Jughead, the 77s caused the Incident.

The ramifications of that have a long reach for folks on the island: essentially everything from 1977 on was changed, for them.
Ben didn't become the Others leader, he ended up as a teacher in LA. He didn't abduct Alex, nor did Danielle end up alone and pregnant. But Ben and Alex are destined to cross and she becomes the teacher's pet.

Since Ben didn't usurp Widmore, maybe Widmore is the island/Other patriarch.

And so it goes. I've not yet seen a single spoiler that would rule out Damon's favorite option - C - as the basis for S6.

lostmio said...

re Widmore: I've steadfastly maintained from the get-go that his inaugral scene was a big put-up. The sole purpose of that McCutcheon bit, in his office, was to goad Des to the island - to push the button and cause the crash.

Every other Des/Widmore scene was the same. Widmore, Eloise, and Fr. Campbell are the epitome of Time Cops. They weren't trying to *change* events, rather they were desperately trying to maintain them.
Widmore of course couldn't tell Penny about any of this; otherwise her genuine love for Des would have been compromised. So his daughter's love was the sacrifice he had to make.

So yeah, he's one of the good guys.

Ben? I sure hope not. He needs to be the baddest guy ever on network OR cable TV. That's his thing, his leagacy - it's what makes him so great. I sure hope Darlton knows that.

neoloki said...

Great comment's Lostmio! Couldn't agree more. Especially about Widmore goading Des and the cause of the incident.

Capcom said...

That's what I've thought about the Wid and Des interactions as well. And when Wid told Eloise that he'd sacrificed things, it clinched for me that he'd risked driving Penny away by separating her and Des via getting Des to the island, etc.

Greg Tramel said...

Ben as a teacher is scary

so is Locke a teacher as well?

Greg Tramel said...

so are Ellie & Charles time cops in more than one timeline?

how do they travel between the timelines?

Greg Tramel said...

sounds like to me season 6 starts off with 815 in 2004 but landing in LAX, of course they may not be filming anything in any order but i'm guessing they would complete the 1st episode then start working on the 2nd ep and so on

so what year would Ben be teaching?

so would Ben still go to the island as a kid in 1973 if the S6 universe is changed in 1977?

Capcom said...

The new promo shots just released look very confusing...just like old times almost. :-\

Greg Tramel said...

which pictures Capcom, Sawyer and Miles?

lostmio said...

Greg, it only makes sense that nothing pre-Jughead (1977) changes.

So - yes, Ben went to the island (ca 1976?, I forget), was shot by Sayid, and was healed, presumably in/at the Temple.
Everything after that is up for grabs.

lostmio said...

Greg, forgot to say: Ben teaching in LA would (in my paradigm) be sometime after the 815 safe landing, ie after 9-22-04.
My same paradigm assumes that the pre-Jughead timeline means he's been in LA at least since maybe 1988, Alex's presumed birth year. And that he never adopted/kidnapped Alex in that pre-Jughead timeline.

To digress, what's **really** interesting to me is the whole ideas of The Numbers. We've a brief spoiler about them reappearing in a significant, shocking way.
Surely I'm not alone in thinking 1977 Hurley becomes the original broadcaster of the numbers? Remember how so many folks said it was Hurley's voice they heard, broadcasting the numbers as Ajira was crash-landing?
How cool would it be if --- Hurley deliberately sets up the numbers broadcast in 1977, knowing he would hear them ca 2004 and that they would lead to his going to OZ, and crashlanding, then doing it all over again in 2007/08?
So he sets everything up, to ensure he takes both 815 and Ajira 816.
Hurley's the MAN!

Greg Tramel said...

thanks for the update Lostmio, it sounds pretty solid i'm just having a little bit of trouble wrapping my feeble brain around where each timeline starts

so would the 815ers new timeline start in 2004 landing at LAX? and their off island events happening 1977 - 2004 were still part of the new timeline even though The Incident was 1977?

and in turn Sawyer would never be the "sheriff" on island 1974-77 even though it happened before the 1977 Incident & Jughead

Greg Tramel said...

i'm LOST

"I was watching filming. I can confirm these people: Sawyer, Sayid, Locke, Kate, Jin, Cindy (all decked out in Others gear), and a whole bunch of Others, including some kids."

Thunderstorm said...

Personally, I am more and more convinced of the most simple explanation.

Jughead has nothing to do with this ALT scenario. Jughead did what Miles said. It (had always) caused the thing they thought they were preventing.

So what is the LAX scenario? It's either what Bigmouth and others suggest, the primary reality all along. Or we haven't seen what created it yet (see the initial comment in this thread).

lostmio said...

@Greg: so would the 815ers new timeline start in 2004 landing at LAX?

That was my working spec but I really like what you asked next:

and their off island events happening 1977 - 2004 were still part of the new timeline even though The Incident was 1977?

The Losties' pre-815 off island lives might be changed by their mainland crosses with folks who were originally on the island pre-2004 (Ben, Alex, etc) whose lives thereafter were reset when the incident happened.
Those Other/Dharma folks lived out a true ALT existence.

I think that's where the writers are taking us.
And think about it -maybe Jacob visited the 815s *after* the detonation.
Arguably he changed Sawyer's, Kate's, Jack's, Jin's, and Sun's pre-815 existence.
Eloise's and Widmore's lives would have been different, too. Thinking about that in relation to their encounters with Des, back in the UK, starts my nosebleeds all over again.

All that said, I think the S6 changed mainland action will be mostly or all after the 815 landing, but it's up to the writers.

Thunderstorm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thunderstorm said...

Must clarify^ that this scenario suggest that time splits on the day of the Incident (because that's the only way it would happen, right?)

So if the "ALT" universe starts there, then why wouldn't it just branch off from there?

Baby Miles (primary) is fated to end up in the Island.
Baby Miles (alt) is not fated at all and would eventually be able to land on 815, if he ever boarded. But as it seems, eventually becomes a cop.

Adult Miles (primary) is either dead or on the Island, post-Incident. Adult Miles (alt) is a cop.

So you could say since the two "alt" Miles aren't fated, that they don't need to be 'separated' out. And we see from spoilers, apparently he's a cop.
And that since primary baby Miles is already fated, you'd be dealing with Primary Adult Miles only.

So I guess I'm just blabbing.

Thunderstorm said...

I junked that comment haha.
Trust me, it wasn't worth reading.

Anyhow, I stick by my the comment above. I really think the most simple explanation is making the most sense.

Jughead doesn't cause the ALT.

Thunderstorm said...

Crap. I apologize for having to clarify once again.

The "^" in my post above was referring to the comment I junked. Not Lostmio's post.

Capcom said...

In case you haven't found the promo pix yet, Zort posted them:

http://www.lostargs.com/

Sorry it took me so long to post them here. Nothing new, but that's what surprised me, it all seemed so similar. :-o

And according to the looks of the new promo poster, Locke is still the only one turned around, so I guess we'll be seeing lots of Not-Locke in S6.

Greg Tramel said...

oh, i thought those were season 5 promotional pictures

David said...

I am enjoying these comments tremendously.

I had posted on an earlier post about a terror event being the endgame everyone was trying to avoid. My argument was based around Locke becoming a Martyr type due to his continued failure and rejection in the ALT (and, of course, previous to the ALT). I didn't want to post spoilers there but my knowledge of his continued failure was due to spoilers showing we know Helen rejects him again (then he gets showered with sprinklers to reinforce) and then another, more interesting scene.

Apparently Hurley backs his Hummer into Locke's Van and does some damage, and offers him a check on the spot. Now that I think about it perhaps Hurley just writes him a check for the damage, but when I first read the spoiler I thought maybe Hurley being super nice and also feeling guilty essentially hands Locke a huge check. Locke begrudgingly accepts, perhaps at first denying it, but then (perhaps a few eps later) realizes he can use this sum of money to purchase some sort of weapon to really release his frustration on the world.

Knowing that Sawyer and Miles are security again and with BigMouth's speculation about them hunting the terrorists to stop an event (Sounds a bit like 24, eh?), I figured I'd expand on my earlier basic premise.

Love to hear your responses.

Capcom said...

Haha! Someone posted them as S6 promos in a posted comment, and then when Zort put them up I still assumed that they were S6 promos without reading the small print!.

X-D

Greg Tramel said...

we knew what you meant by junked Thunderstorm

to clarify for my mind, if Jughead dsidn't cause the split could The Incident have anything to do with the split?

or am i just crazy for seperating those into 2 different events which are 1 in the same?

Bigmouth said...

Jughead doesn't cause the split, which occurs some time in the ancient past of both primary and secondary timelines. Jughead's detonation is one of several critical links in a causal loop that must be completed or the secondary reality will be erased from 1977 (or possibly even 1845) onwards, leaving only the primary timeline's future.

neoloki said...

The more I read the spoilers the more I think The Incident has very little to do with the ALT. I have mentioned it before, but either we are dealing with a parallel universe or refer to big's last comment. Jughead will figure in somehow to the ALT whether it is a matter of mental dimension skipping or The Incident changes something in the ALT it will figure into how the endgame plays out.

Greg Tramel said...

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"there are a number of prisoners on this ship [BR], including Sayid, Locke, Kate and Claire"

neoloki said...

Greg, that is a rumor and I will call foiler on that until I actually see it.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i see it listed as a rumor but a WILD idea nonetheless

so ur back to parallel instead of tangent? definitely be LOTS easier for TPTB to pull off

neoloki said...

Yeah, parallel, unless the tangent started at a much earlier time as Big has mentioned. I doubt Jughead actually created the ALT, but it will have some sort of ramification for Jack's group in the ALT.

Bigmouth said...

I call foiler, too, for now. Who the hell is Captain Whitfield? I thought Magnus Hanso was captain of the Black Rock.

neoloki said...

I was trying to ask if his source was bona fide which he didn't seem to want to answer because he only answered my second which was just a work around on the first.

Alright, I need more coffee or sleep because that didn't make sense, loll.

Greg Tramel said...

what about the earlier spoiler about our 815ers decked out in "Other's" clothing?

foiler or not? guess it sound's much more plausible than them on BR

yeah, i've always figured Jughead starting the alt (or rather stopping it i suppose) would be next to impossible to pull off but i was willing to let TPTB try to prove me wrong

Greg Tramel said...

oh and so TPTB are definitively saying Juliet died at the end of season 5, right?

Greg Tramel said...

guess i should add Juliet died in the Jughead detonating alt reality

right?

Bigmouth said...

Greg: Exactly, Juliet dies in the secondary reality of S1-5.

neoloki said...

Yeah, Juliet is dead and is only supposed to appear a couple of times.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, gang. I skimmed through this at light-speed just to see Big's comments. I saw where he mentioned Sawyer seeing Charlotte and that was what I alluded to in the previous entry. I saw a LOST blog that really wasn't a LOST blog, a friend somehow morphed his over the last two months.

It was funny seeing the one spoiler I already knew. But the rest I'm saving for the last season. See you all in another life!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

PS Someone should be spreading the word to all the other spoiler-hounds (Big's term), like Christie and NetProphet to join in over here.

Greg Tramel said...

i'd still like to label the primary and secondary realities both alt realities of each other so i don't have any issue with THEM calling season 6 an alt reality

how about we call them Season 1 reality (S1R) and Season 6 reality (S6R)

i'm suspecting other alt realities in season 2-5 so that's why for me it's best to use just S1R rather than S1-5R

same thing with FF and Fringe, i'd label all of the realities alt realities to each other, who says the alt reality with our major characters in Fringe is the primary reality, the other one sen=mes more advance and at least the unnecessary 9/11 didn't happen, i prefer that alt reality

funny we have 3 shows on at once dealing with multiverses

neoloki said...

Big

What is your impression of the hangman game spoiler? Does this mean MIB/Smokie are the same? I asked Dark if the source outright told him that MIB/Smokie are the same or if it just was his interpretation and he didn't really give me an answer. I am not buying it. There seems to be more questions than answers on this one.

Greg Tramel said...

very well could be MIB=Smokie but maybe Smokie is another character altogether

in the spoiler y'all called a foiler, 815ers on BR, it also said they called the character playing MIB on set MIB

neoloki said...

Greg

That part, the 815's, has been moved to rumor section. All the scene's for the Black Rock are filmed at the same location. So, seeing multiple actors on the set is NOT a tell tale sign that they will all be in the same scene in the same era.

As far as MIB being Smokey, I like the idea of it being a three headed entity, Cerabus, with each part acting separately but all with the same "soul" and agenda.

That being said, the spoiler is NOT a confirmation that MIB is Smokey. Dark said he would like wise make a public apology to me and vice versa if it is wrong. In other words, this is what he has gathered from his sources, but can't confirm it yet.

Bigmouth said...

I had trouble reading through all the comments on Dark's hangman post, so this possibility may already have been dismissed. But couldn't Smokey and the Man in Black be one and the same CURRENTLY even if they were once separate entities?

Also, could Ji-Yeon Kwon be 42?

Greg Tramel said...

yes, i realize the 815ers suff was moved to romours but it sounds like the MIB being on BR with Richard still stands

and i just found it intresting they called him MIB on set

yep, Smokie=Cerebus still works, played by maybe 3 actors even though hangman stated "smokie now played by actor" (not plural in hangman)

yes, i agree no conclusive eveidence whatsoever for Smokie=MIB

Greg Tramel said...

Big, that could explained why they used "now" played by actor

maybe Flocke as killed so MIB moved into Smokie

neoloki said...

Big


That is an interesting point. We are missing something in the big picture here.Aslo, can you explain to me the significance of someone being 42. Maybe I am just overlooking something obvious. I don't understand the importance of people being The Numbers.

Greg

I am hung up on the NOW part of that spoiler. There was a spoiler that mentioned Sayid stabbed Flocke. Wow, I am going to have to start using Flocke because there is to many people that are the same at this point and I am not comfortable with it.

lostmio said...

Big, I've always sorta thought that there's an *original* entity of some sort who manifests as Smokie and/or MiB and FLocke.
IOW, MiB is not the original. So to me, it's no biggie to see a spoiler that says MiB=Smokie or Smokie=FLocke, or whatever.

To anyone it may concern (Greg? Neoloki?, I don't know),I'm stymied too re the notion of a Kwon or anyone being "one of the numbers". There's nothing about that spoiler that I like, or that makes sense. So if you're as miserably confused as I am, you have company.

lostmio said...

Just to confirm what neoloki said re the Black Rock - I have one of those damned Lost books and it goes into great detail about the early Black Rock stuff.
Every interior scene that was ever filmed in the Black Rock was done on a sound stage; the island Black Rock we saw was a foam prop.

So any and all S6 interior Black Rock scenes will be filmed on a sound stage, regardless of the time period.

neoloki said...

Thanks Lostmio. I am growing more comfortable with the idea of MIB and Smokie being the same. I like the idea of Cerabus. The spoiler rings wrong to me, though. Something isn't quite right about how it is worded and laid out, so I still have a lot of reservations about it. I am not one of those sheep on Dark's site that say Oh Dark said it then it is fucking gospel. That is not a nock on Dark just the unblinking faithful. He is right more often than not. But he did stop short of confirming it when I asked if it was his opinion or his sources.

Bigmouth said...

I feel like I'm missing something really big here. Why are folks so shocked that MIB and Smokey are now the same? I've always assumed they merged that night the Cabin moved outside the Circle. Zombie Locke is a copy just like Zombie Christian was.

As for Ji-Yeon being a number, I was just thinking metaphorically. Since 42 is the last Number, perhaps she represents the end of Jacob's plan to save the world. Heck, maybe she's a core factor of the Valenzetti Equation.

neoloki said...

They merged? So they were not the same entity then they were?

What if Jacob, MIB and Smokey are all the same being? I mean since we are consolidating?

neoloki said...

That was not meant to be a snarky comment. Well, I mean, not really.

Bigmouth said...

I think MIB was a ghost trapped in the Cabin. The ash circle kept Cerberus at bay. When the Cabin moved outside the Circle, MIB possessed or merged with Cerberus. I suppose Jacob, MIB, and Cerberus could all be the same being. My main problem is the Temple relief of Anubis feeding Cerberus. I've always assumed that MIB was Anubis, which implies they're separate entities.

Bigmouth said...

Also, wasn't there a spoiler that Jacob has never appeared in any other form? I seem to recall that put the kibosh on the otherwise plausible theory that Formal Christian was Jacob, while Casual Christian was MIB.

neoloki said...

You know Big, I have read your idea on Smokie merging with MIB in the cabin before and it makes A LOT of sense. I am growing more comfortable with the idea of them being the same. Part of me want's Smokie to be explained separately, but if we look at the whole series and who has participated explicitly in event's then MIB and Smokie, the same, is cohesive.

If Jacob, Smokie and MIB were the same, they would be the same in essence only, but completely separate in form. So Jacob would still have never taken another form. Think conjoined twins, but triplet or to simplify Cerabus. The heads have different idea's and motivations, but they are all one form/essence of the Island.

Bigmouth said...

neoloki, have you read Dan Simmons's books Ilium and Olympos? They feature post-human "gods" who are actually constituted from clouds of nanobots.

neoloki said...

No, I haven't. Is is a novel? Is it worth a read? Just started the Nightwatch trilogy. Funny I wouldn't have come across a mention of it in all the Lost reading's. Might have missed it. Bad memory. Read to much Burroughs when I was young.

I recently read Everything rises must converge by Flannery O'Conner and you got me as to how that fit's into Lost. Unless you look at the son, Julian, representing MIB and his mother Jacob. Turning over old traditions, hate for a way of being. Maybe it is just the title we are supposed to be thinking about

Bigmouth said...

I've mentioned Simmons's books a few times, particularly the Hyperion Saga, which features a temple sent back in time from the Omega Point. But I highly recommend Ilium and Olympos, which are among my favorite sci-fi books ever.

Everything that Rises Must Converge is simply an ironic allusion to the Omega Point. The book is filled with examples of prejudice and narrow-mindedness. These are precisely the aspects of human nature that the Omega Point seeks to overcome.

neoloki said...

Thank's Big. I have come across the reference to Omega Point first over at Hema Theory than here. I need to do some rereading.

Bigmouth said...

Yeah, HEMA Theory is the first place I can recall connecting the Omega Point to LOST. You can read my take at the end of Three Black Swans.

neoloki said...

One thing Big, I am not buying this idea that the bodies of Christian and Yemi were dragged off by bears or that there is some casual explanation for there disappearance. With Christian, TPTB made a point of showing the empty coffin and Yemi was shown in the plane, but then when Eko was killed Yemi's body was gone.

Maybe just incidental, but the two Locke bodies is bothersome.

Bigmouth said...

The disappearing bodies are indeed perplexing in light of the two Lockes. But who said anything about being dragged off by bears? Maybe Smokey has them stashed somewhere (like Charlie's heroin dolls) underground or in the Temple.

Bigmouth said...

Here's a thought. What if Smokey traveled as smoke through the blocked tunnel to Hydra Island? Perhaps it couldn't return with Locke's physical corpse because of the blockage.

neoloki said...

Oh I mentioned the bears because of comments on Dark's site.

Do we have any real idea of Smokie's appearances as far as geographical locations? Is that asking to much? It seems he is mostly seen near The Temple.

If we get an explanation for the two Locke's I doubt it will be pedestrian.

neoloki said...

You know Jacob and MIB being of the same soul/being but independent manifestations would be a pratical reason for not being able to kill each other. Lopping off one head of a three headed body would not kill the being.

neoloki said...

Actually, Big, you verge on saying that MIB and Jacob are the same being, just manifestations of the Island, in your Black Swan Theory.

Bigmouth said...

You beat me to it, neoloki! They're the Island trinity. Or to expand on the brain analogy, perhaps MIB and Jacob are the ego and superego, with Smokey as the Id.

neoloki said...

So a man and women in love wouldn't spend eternity trying to kill each other?

Ha Ha Ha, sorry, I couldn't help it.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

My name is NetProphet, long time Lost lover and newly confirmed spoiler junkie. I figure the only thing to do now is feed my addiction and talk it over in group session with the rest of you...

Anyhow, some of my thoughts:

Flocke = Smokie has made perfect sense since Dead is Dead. Flocke also being Jacob's nemesis leads to Nemesis/MiB = Flocke = Smokie. Now it is confirmed.

I like the term Nemesis, because I'm also thinking the "Man in Black" persona is just another shell akin to the adoption of Locke's appearance while Locke's dead body is still around. Interesting that a dead body is apparently used as a template for a host body (see Locke and Yemi) instead of "possessed".

My guess is that the way we see Jacob isn't necessarily his true appearance either, and that just killing the physical being isn't enough. With both he and Nemesis, it may be necessary to take further steps to prevent a return in another form.

I think the Anubis and Smokie picture from the temple may very well be an early portrayal of Jacob and Nemesis. Anubis was not an evil or malevolent god, he merely performed the grim task of ushering the newly dead to the underworld where ultimate judgment was made by others. So why can't Jacob have been seen by ancient egyptians as Anubis? The picture might also imply a mutual relationship of sorts, that seems to be echoed in the Jacob & MiB conversation.

My take on an Alt not caused by Jughead/the incident: we are dealing with a multiverse where any number of alts already exist, all with a common hub at the Island. From his Island home, maybe Jacob has the ability to perceive and navigate each of an endless number of such alternate realities (another version of extra-dimensional perception). Each such reality would have its own distinct Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Ben, etc. etc. Notably, there appear to be conflicting spoilers about Jack and gang interacting on the Island as well as acting out different lives in the alt. So what if we have two versions of each character for a while? What if Jack and gang are truly stuck in the past, but given the means to influence the alt versions of themselves to come to the Island? What if Richard really did see the known versions of our heroes die, but it was as they were working to bring their alts there to take their place in the future?

The thing I like best is that the use of an alt in this fashion would not fall within the "easy escape valve" critcism TPTB have levelled at shows like Heroes. Nothing from the previous five seasons would be invalidated, and it would give each alt version of the characters a chance to either reaffirm or repudiate the qualities we previously saw develop. Imagine an alt Jin (unredeemed jerk version) arriving on the Island to find his long estranged wife not only loves him, but that they also have a miracle child! (I'm working on a larger version of this theory with some connections to Heinlein's Number of the Beast).

Done for now, but will continue following the discussion closely :)

Greg Tramel said...

how does Illana being Jacob's daughter fit into Jacob as 1 head of Cerebus or Jacob being the superego?

Greg Tramel said...

somebody at ComicCon asked if Jacob has appeared to anybody in any other form and TPTB said a defintative no (but as Neoloki says that doesn't disprove Jacob being a Cerebus head)

i remember this because i wanted to throw something at them because they SHOULD have asked if MIB has appeared in any other form

Greg Tramel said...

i think 3 Locke bodies on island at the same time was a result of time travel but i think Smokie actually used Christian and Yemi's body (and did not duplicagte due to time travel)so that's why there wasn't an "alive" and dead at the same time

Greg Tramel said...

and i think Smokie used Alex's dead body as well

but i can't remember did we ever see Alex being buried?

it may not matter but i was just curious if she was buried

Greg Tramel said...

i like the idea of Anubis and Smokie being a portrayal of Jacob and MIB and since Vincent is also in that hieroglyph maybe Vincent is the 3 head of Cerebus

Greg Tramel said...

oh! i just realized i may have misread the hangman clue

so is this all part of the same clue wherein Smokie is now played "FLocke"?

"smokie now played by actor Terry O Quinn is recruiting"

Anonymous said...

I see MIB and Jacob more as Apep and Ra, especially since they fight the eternal battle of light vs. dark. One major contradiction is when Ben says that his people don't even have a name for the Smoke Monster. I would think the Others know more about what's going on, therefore would know who or what the monster is.

Bigmouth said...

neoloki: That result would seem to be chosen more for its symbolism than its plausibility. Then again, like Locke says, the Island is a place where miracles happen LOL!

Netprophet: Verrrry interesting! Maybe Jacob is Anubis, and MIB/Smokey is Apep? I still favor the idea of MIB as Anubis, feeding souls of the dead to Smokey, but the alternatives are also quite interesting.

Greg: Yep, that's the one, unless more was revealed in the comments. It makes perfect sense to me that MIB needs Smokey to snatch bodies for him since he apparently lacks corporeal form.

It seems to me he takes Christian's form to trick Claire, then Locke's to trick Richard, Ben, and Jacob into allowing him to enter the Foot with Ben.

Bigmouth said...

Anonymous(?): Ra makes sense, too. Isn't there a myth about him slaying Apep?

lostmio said...

re the two Locke bodies: I still think it ties back to the two Bens we saw in the deleted footage. And Darlton's comment that the polar bear skeleton relates to the two bunnies in the video.

Turning the donkey wheel creates a 2nd body (presumably imo because of the time travel anomaly; one body stays in current time as the other goes to the 'new' time). The bodies would normally both be alive, as we saw with Ben.
But probably the left-behind Locke died near the donkey wheel, where the nemesis (I like that, netprophet) was conveniently nearby in the form of casual Christian.

Greg Tramel said...

somebody said TPTB confirmed Richard IS Ra but i have not ever seen it verified (actually, Dr. Todd J. Hostager, the HEMA guy, said it in one of his posts)

anyway Ra does have a place in Lost, some would define Apep as the enemy of RA

lostmio said...

Bigmouth said It seems to me he takes Christian's form to trick Claire, then Locke's to trick Richard, Ben, and Jacob into allowing him to enter the Foot with Ben.

That's what I figure was meant by "smokie is recruiting" in the hangman spoiler - ie smokie's looking for dead bodies.

Which brings up a truly dreadful thought: the things in the spoiler are supposed to be related; what if one of the Kwons is the 42nd body?
Ok, surely not, I just had to put that onto paper/screen to get it out of my head. I'm over it.

Greg Tramel said...

netprophet, i like you explanation of how Richard saw them all die, works for me, goes along with my idea of multiple alts,

at least with Fringe and FlashForward we only have 2 alts so far

Greg Tramel said...

lostmio, could be Smokie(Flocke) is recruiting dead bodies but i took it more as he was trying to build allies on his side for the great war

lostmio said...

To clarify: imo Smokie/Nemesis, who is now in Locke's body (and therefore being played by O'Quinn), needs another body because folks are onto him/it as Flocke. He/it needs to find another body, so he's 'recruiting' in this episode.

Bigmouth said...

I took it like Greg -- i.e., recruiting for the coming war -- but that's a SUPER creepy possibility Lostmio! Speaking of the war, does Charles being a good guy mean he was actually referring to Flocke when he warned of the "wrong side" winning?

Greg Tramel said...

ah! lostmio, that makes sense esp now that dead Locke is out of the box, they must know something is up with Nemesis/FLocke

lostmio said...

I'm wondering how many bodies Nemesis can inhabit at once. I'd always thought just one but it's interesting to speculate otherwise.

Greg Tramel said...

i'm still not sure how much Charles knows about Nemesis but yes i would say he would be not want Nemesis' side winning

Greg Tramel said...

Lostmio, in accordance with our Cerebus theory we could say 3 at once

i've often seen Cerebus depicted as a 3 headed dog so i suppose that's what all the dog portraits were about

lostmio said...

If Kate, Jin, Hurley, and Jack (they were the ones in the photo)all died as Richard said, did Smokie take over their bodies?
Have they been hiding out on the island ever since? Are they the source of the whispers?
Will the final war be Losts v Zombie Losties?

lostmio said...

Three at once makes sense, Greg. Whether the smoke monster is one of the three or not, that's up to the writers.

MikeNY said...

Howdy,

I recommend a recent Damon video from The ODI. Check out 25:00.

To cut Damon's rambling short, he clearly suggests Jacob and Smokemaster3000 — Man in White and Man in Black — are meant to personify the two elements of the white/black concept referenced by Locke with the backgammon pieces.

I'd argue "personify" is a very loaded choice... though your mileage may vary...

Praise February,

Mike

Greg Tramel said...

Lostmio, i don't think Smokie took over Kate, Jin, Hurley, and Jack when Richard saw them die, that ended that alt timeline and an alt timeline fused with that one beginning with Kate, Jin, Hurley, and Jack coming back to the island

Anonymous said...

Their could be 3 entities and Claire could have been taken over/possessed by the third. Tawaret IS the demon wife of Apep. She could be the REAL leader and that's why there's a statue of her. All ties in with Apep vs. Ra.

Greg Tramel said...

maybe Tawaret had Horus (Horace) build a cabin to imprison Apep

maybe Illana is Hathor, the Eye of Ra, sometimes depicted as the daughter of Ra

Bigmouth said...

What if Claire and Rousseau were BOTH possessed by Tawaret at different points in the Island's history?

Thunderstorm said...

re: avoiding some some kind of cataclysm in the Primary universe (where 815 lands safely)

What if the numbers pertain to those who will create (progenitors of) the people responsible for the cataclysm?

Bigmouth said...

MikeNY: I was also struck by Damon's comment that they started talking seriously about Jacob and MIB when they were planning what would be in the Hatch. Could this imply that one of them -- presumably Jacob -- was behind DHARMA?

Thunderstorm said...

AFAIK, the VE never has appeared on the show itself, what if it quite literally, relative to our story, is an alternate reality?

What if the Valenzetti Equation only pertains to the Primary reality where 815 doesn't crash?

And the numbers in this reality are just what they are, an equation.

But in the ALT, they are the variables (humans) that make up the equation?

So essentially, the VE is not a prediction, relatively speaking, as much as it's a solution.

P.S.
Loving the Egyptian Stuff, guys.

Bigmouth said...

Valenzetti is mentioned on the Blast Door Map, and his Equation is the whole reason DHARMA was created, so I think it's safe to assume they're a part of the S1-5 reality. But I'm with you that the info could originate in the future of the primary universe.

Thunderstorm said...

The Three Headed Smoke Monster.
Wow, this spec is fascinating.

So Jacob, MIB, and Taweret?

And Rousseau/S6 Claire could be the Taweret spirit? Anubis is one of the others...

So, Smokey/Apep, could be used by one of these 3 God/spirit/beings?

I hope one of you creates a big ass theory on all this. Or knows a link to one, this stuff is very interesting.

I still have a hang-up about the way they portrayed Taweret as not being pregnant. but someone a lot more knowledgeable on this stuff than I, said that this could have been intentional, built as a prayer to Taweret to solve these pregnancy problems. But then Ethan was born...so I have no idea.

Dakota said...

No new footage with this, so technically not a spoiler. But this has to be my favorite LOST promo ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C56Lgl6DorM

Thunderstorm said...

What about suggesting NOT that Valenzetti doesn't exist, or doesn't serve to create Dharma in both instances, just suggesting that the VE means something different relative to the separate realities.

Both pertaining to doomsday, sure, but the Valenzetti "research" in the ALT (as transcribed on the BDM), might not be the same kind of research in the Primary (a literal prediction).

That's basically all I'm getting at, I might have worded the other idea poorly. I certainly think that Valenzetti would be a player, if Dharma exists in both realities.

neoloki said...

I am sorry, but I think that promo is incredibly cheese ball, overdone and melodramatic. Admittedly, I am in the minority in this view.

Big, so if MIB and Smokie are the same being what would be the purpose of him(MIB) being imprisoned in the cabin if he could be Smokie and continue smoking around the Island. Is he less powerful in that form? Am I missing something obvious?

Anonymous said...

This probably sounds a little too overboard, but maybe our main characters are all gods reincarnated. I think they say that Ra enlists the help of other Gods to destroy Apep. This all would make under the island Duat (spirits whispering) and above possibly Aaru. This still all fits with the end of the world theme. We've got the Wheel of Time on the island (cyclical time), Apep wanting it all to end, etc.

Anonymous said...

The Temple could be the entrance to Duat. Spirits that live there could be able to re-inhabit other bodies--like what happened to Danielle's team and Ben (and maybe many of the Others). This could also explain why Richard wanted Amy's husband's body--to allow a spirit to enter it.

Greg Tramel said...

Neoloki, i think maybe the ring around the cabin would not allow the entity in the cabin to merge with Smokie until the circle was broken or the cabin moved out of the circle

Greg Tramel said...

anon (what's your name), i like the temple/duat idea, VERY plausiable

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: Greg's answer is my own -- are we missing something?

Also, what do folks make of the fact that the Temple was marked with a DHARMA symbol on Ben's map? The more I think about it, the more sense it makes that Jacob was behind DHARMA...

Anonymous said...

They could have very well have ended with season one (if the show wasn't picked up longer) with the island turning out to be Duat. They gave enough hints with the monster/Apep, whispers, eyes. They may have introduced the swan hatch once they knew it would go on longer. I think time travel is just an element, not the main premise of LOST. The Wheel just goes along with Egyptian Eternal Recurrence. The alter world we're going to see in Season 6 is just an unaltered cycle of time before Jacob had the plan to manipulate it.
Joanna

Bigmouth said...

The alter world we're going to see in Season 6 is just an unaltered cycle of time before Jacob had the plan to manipulate it.

Joanna: Love that description! I've been calling it the "primary" reality for precisely that reason.

neoloki said...

Either they are the same or they aren't. Not wasn't then was. Either MIB/Smokie is imprisoned or he isn't. Why else would we see Locke disappear underneath The Temple and then Smokie appear to judge Ben. If you have to merge with something that requires two separate beings.
If he can be two different places at once that kind of makes imprisonment unnecessary.

Bigmouth said...

I don't follow you. MIB and Smokey were separate beings. They merged to become one. What doesn't make sense?

neoloki said...

What we know is that they are the same being, so to say that they were separate kind of feels like we are creating a problem to fit the solution.

Bigmouth said...

I'm not trying to be difficult, but how precisely do we know they are the same being? Please supply the exact quote, if possible.

neoloki said...

the spoiler on Dark's site says, "Smokie now played by Terry O' Quinn". the general assumption by the populace on this spoiler is that Smokie and MIB are the same being. Now I realize you are saying they were not, but after his escape from the cabin they merged, but to what purpose? Why would MIB even need to do such a thing. At least coming from the perspective that MIB could be a 4D creature or Demi-God.

Thunderstorm said...

I have always assumed that they were different entities for the sheer fact that the thing that creates the ruckus in the Cabin (TMBTC) is invisible.

And Smokey, to me, even when manifesting as a baby-carrying CS or (perhaps) a slapping Charlie or an aggressive, accosting Alex or maybe even the Medusa Spiders...are all very much physical things in order to be physical.

The whispers are invisible and can become visible. But there are no whispers in the cabin in TMBTC, but there is a disembodied voice. And the idea of 'imprisonment' by the ash circle is hard to ignore.

My idea (however misguided) is that Flocke, the physical body is just like "Alex", in that it's a replica. Only Alex was (more or less) a programmed messenger. MIB programming Smokey to send the message, from his imprisoned place in the Cabin.

And when a duped Claire (probably) breaks him out (disturbs the ash circle) using one of these physical manifestations (CS, in this case)to manipulate her into doing so. "MIB", the ghostly spirit, is able to possess one of these physical manifestations.

So "Smokie now played by TOQ" is read as true but that's not all he is. He is part Smoke and this spirit thing.

Might be too convoluted for it's own good, but there you go. What would have stopped MIB-as-literal-Smokey, from doing any number of things if he weren't imprisoned? Because he wouldn't have been every time we saw him.

This also plays into the loyal guard dog symbolism. He could get his dog to FETCH and BARK, but he couldn't ride on his back until Claire broke him out...haha.

Something like that.

Thunderstorm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Thunderstorm said...

Neoloki said,

"Why would MIB even need to do such a thing."

If they are 4D, why do they need to do ANY of this? They could have done plenty of things, like nearly every single thing, much easier. That's why I am skeptical that 4D is in play, but certainly acknowledge that there is a definite chance of it happening.

To answer the question...I don't really know other than to say, perhaps it has to do with the same thing that inhibits these 4D beings. Rules of some sort.

Or that Locke had to be dead to steal his identity. And he couldn't merely 'resurrect' Locke using a Smoke Manifestation, because they are something along the lines of Messengers, not entirely sentient. And eventually RA might sniff this out after awhile. Sogs are smart, but they smart enough to fool Methuselah. ;)

I think there is a good chance that MIB=Smokey just like the spoiler seems to imply, just typin'...

neoloki said...

Yeah, as I have stated many times, I am not big (no pun intended, lol) on the idea of MIB/Smokie, the same being. I have opened up to it a little more, though, and see way's it could be pulled off effectively. I mostly see it as a short cut to an explanation of one or the other. However, thematically it could be an elegant gesture.

I have never cared one way or another for Claire the first 4 season's, but going into season 6 she is one of the most intriguing characters.

neoloki said...

My point earlier was that MIB was either always Smokie or never was. The idea that they merge overcomplicates an already thick and intricate plot point. Especially, for network TV.

Bigmouth said...

I couldn't have said it better, Thunder. You are seriously on a deductive roll!

Neoloki, how do you explain the transformation from formal to casual Christian? To my mind, that strongly suggests possession. Again, it makes perfect sense to me that non-physical MIB must possess Smokey to achieve the corporeal forms necessary to execute his plan.

neoloki said...

I think we are misunderstanding each other. Possession and Origin are two different things, obviously. Even though Smokie possesses Christian, Smokie is not Jack's father. He can never BE Christian.

and I understand where you are coming from a little better now.

MikeNY said...

Big —

Do you think Jacob has always brought all of the groups that fight and corrupt?

I think he's trying to prove the point that yin and yang need not remain in conflict. So he needs two groups with opposing ideologies (e.g., exploitation vs. preservation).

I still love the idea that the coup de grace will be the union Aaron and Ji Yeon.

Bigmouth said...

MikeNY: My assumption is that Jacob brings them, then MIB tries to tempt them into fighting, destroying, and corrupting. In their conversation on the beach, MIB is basically saying "they fail my tests every time."

Neoloki: Do we understand each other? I'm not so sure. Let me explain one last time. MIB is a ghost trapped in the Cabin. He needs to possess Smokey (1) to resume physical form, and (2) to shift between physical forms as required to con various characters. That possession takes place the night the Cabin moves outside the ash circle, which keeps Cerberus at bay. Smokey (i.e., formal Christian) goes into the Cabin, where MIB possesses it. The sign of MIB's possession of Smokey is Christian's change to casual clothes.

The complexity of this scenario is driven solely by the demands of the story. If you can come up with a simpler explanation of (1) what was happening in the Cabin, and (2) why Zombie Christian changes his clothes, I'm all eyes. Otherwise, I have a hard time abandoning it in light of such an ambiguous spoiler.

Greg Tramel said...

i'm still reading through last nights comments but i'll chime in early

i think thundrstorm explained our reasoning (and i love the loyal guard dog idea)

i'll add that smokie may be the spirital enitiy that manifests as Cerebus using dead bodies (christiian, MIB, Locke, Claire, ...)

so MIB (in addition to 2 other heads) and Smokie can be around at the same time, MIB is a subset of Smokie or 1 head manifestation of Smokie and therefore played by Flocke

there are entities on the island without physical bodies (entity trapped in cabin, whispers, and other lost souls)

Smokie needs to interact with these entities and dead bodies to manifest as a human

lostmio said...

Bigmouth, that's a nice synopsis. I lean toward the cabin entity (the one that wanted Locke's help) being more-or-less the same Nemesis entity as MiB.

I'm still bothered by the chicken/egg aspects of MiB and Smokie.

Which came first?
And wasn't Smokie roving and shape-shifting while the ash circle was still intact? How did that work?

Greg Tramel said...

Lostmio, i would say Smokie came 1st and has on occasion manifested as MIB, Flocke, Christian, Claire, Alex, .....

I don't think Smokie can leave the island even manifested as a human and so i would say Hugo seeing Charlie on earth was not Smokie in Charlie's body in the physical sense

lostmio said...

Greg, are you saing Nemesis is the entire entity; Smokie's the guard dog subset, and there are other subsets, all of which (including Smokie) can shapeshift and/or inhabit bodies?

My confusion is here: if subset Smokie had that capability, why would the subset trapped cabin entity that said "help me" also need the capability?

lostmio said...

Where was Smokie in 1977?

Greg Tramel said...

Lostmio, I think Smokie was still around when the entity was trapped in the cabin, Smokie just couldn't go into the cabin to manifest the entity in the cabin into a human form

but since there are other dead bodies and disembodied entities roaming the island planet Smokie could shapeshift using those

lostmio said...

Thinking about the cabin and Smokie, I just reviewed Lostpedia re Horace's cabin since the connection (or not) has always intrigued me. Was it ever confirmed that so-called Jacob's and Horace's cabins were the same?

Anyway, the interesting part of the review was Horace's getting drunk and dynamiting trees, remember that?
And remember how Smokie's first appearancce was his seeming to blow up trees?
Interesting. There's something there, I just can't grasp it.

Greg Tramel said...

Lostmio, not exactly what i'm attempting to say but maybe it is a matter of semantics

Smokie is a spirit entity that appears as smoke but also can manifest into 3 bodies as a Cerebus Smokie needs both a dead body (Locke)and a disembodied soul (Nememis)to manifest as a human

lostmio said...

Greg, that seems to work, I'll have to mull it.

Greg Tramel said...

but GOOD question Lostmio about where was smokie in 1977,

i would say Smokie was there all along (as sorta the3 main island spirit entity & watchdog), maybe the Cerebus vents were blocked up or something or it was trapped somewhat by plugging up holes with water pressure or whatever that weird drain thing Ben pulled to summon Smokie

Greg Tramel said...

so i would add a slight change to Big's comment which in some ways may just be a semiotic shift and say it was the Nemesis' ghost trapped in the cabin

Smokie manifested into human form using MIB's dead body and Nemeisis' ghost

so i wouldn't necessarily say the ghost in the cabin possessed Smokie but rather all 3 (Nemesis, Smokie, MIB) possessed each other in a parasitic symbiosis manner

lostmio said...

OK, I’ve got a handle on the tree-dynamiting thing.

It goes back to the hunter v. farmer, nature v. technology subtheme going on in Lost.

Tree-clearing is farmer/technology behavior. Hunter and nature-types hate it

Jacob hates technology. I don’t just take Ben’s word for that – Jacob’s lifestyle showed it.
Dharma loves technology. Ben liked technology. Flocke hasn’t weighed in but I’d wager he doesn’t mind technology. (Locke of course hated technology).)
Smokie doesn’t communicate well but has willfully destroyed trees and has been known to make machine-like and train-like sounds. So Smokie must like technology.

Going out on a limb (no pun intended), I’d say that Dharma and Jacob are not and ever were on the same side.
Interestingly Widmore, back on the island, wasn’t a fan of technology. In more recent times, he seems to favor it – at least as a means to an end.

Horace was of course an engineer-scientist type, and his drunken tree-destruction binge was the writers’ way of further placing him on the technology/farmer side of things.

fwiw, in Indo-European history, herders, as in Shepherds, were in the middle of the hunter-farmer and nature-technology continuum. They needed cleared land but they roamed to find it rather than fell trees. At times, they were at odds with both sides.

I always found Sawyer's name interesting - it denotes a tree-harvester, and it foreshadowed both his intra-group conflict with Jack and also his dalliance with Dharma.
But Sawyer's not his real name so he's not really in the technology camp.

lostmio said...

Greg, you're right: Smokie and water don't mix. That's why he wasn't on the other island. So when there was water in the under-ground caverns (as late as 1977), he couldn't travel much, if at all.

When technology drained up the underground waterways, he began to roam freely.

Isn't there a spoiler out that could be interpreted to say Sayid's healed by some liquid (water?)?

Bigmouth said...

Wow...totally disagree re Jacob not being connected with DHARMA. Remember, the Room 23 video says "God loves you as he loved JACOB." Also, DHARMA clearly had some inside info regarding the Island, including the need for a sonic fence to stop Smokey. I'm guessing that came from the guy who brought them there -- who ALWAYS brings people there -- i.e., Jacob.

Finally, don't forget that Ben probably got his "anti-technology" message from the Cabin, which I think was occupied by MIB. I don't see any indication that Jacob is anti-technology. Doesn't he use a loom to weave his tapestry?

Greg Tramel said...

and i agree with MikeNY's ying/yang comment

the cabals would call it "the doctrine of coincidentia ppositorum, the interpenetration, interdependence and unification of opposites which has long been one of the defining characteristics of mystical thought"

just like Jacob and his bad cosmic twin the MIB/Nemeis/Smokie creature

Greg Tramel said...

and i would add that Jacob did have something to do with bringing DI to the island planet

Bigmouth said...

PS: The one group I could see MIB bringing to the Island would be the Freighter. But my recent discussions with Thunder have persuaded me that even this was probably Jacob.

Greg Tramel said...

i don't think MIB brought anybody to the island, all Jacob

Greg Tramel said...

Ryan is doing this ongoing interesting series speculating whether things are Jacob's vs MIB's handiwork

Light vs. Dark

neoloki said...

Big,

You might have mentioned this somewhere else, but what do you think happened to MIB to lose his form? Was it Richard and that is why Jacob granted him agelessness?

Thunderstorm said...

Ok, let's take it at face value. Say MIB is Smokey, plain and simple....

What if a theoretical third entity (not Jacob, not MIB/Smokey) is the thing imprisoned in the Cabin.

and the thing may have possessed Claire, when MIB (as CS) led Claire there to break the ash circle. The entity forces Claire to leave Aaron behind, it sits next to CS when Locke visits and now Claire is all of a sudden dark headed Rambo chick.

So this third entity, if it were so, would be working with MIB.

Greg Tramel said...

Thunderstorm, wouldn't that 3rd entity be Nemesis or do you mean also instead of Nemesis?

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: As described in Cabin Fever Relapse..., I think MIB's physical form was obliterated in whatever incident destroyed the statue. And yes, my guess in that Richard is responsible, and that his immortality was not so much a reward as a sign of trust by Jacob. Richard was his firewall, a protection Jacob required because MIB was aware of everything the Others did.

Thunder: The idea of some other entity besides MIB/Smokey and Jacob is intriguing and might explain the possible "possession" of Rousseau and Claire, as we've discussed. I like this angle because it suggests Christian's change of clothes might be the result of this entity "mating" with Smokey. BUT so much of the show's imagery -- not to mention the comments of Darlton themselves -- suggest there are two forces, light vs. dark. I think it will be a big enough twist to most viewers that "Jacob's" Cabin never really belonged to him at all.

Greg: I think Thunder is suggesting a third entity completely -- e.g., Taweret.

Bigmouth said...

Just for the sake of argument, if MIB and Smokey are, and always have been, one and the same being, their relationship may be like the head and body of the King of the Moon in the Adventures of Baron Munchausen. Both can function independently, but nowhere near as effectively as when they are reunited. Along those lines, perhaps destroying the statute was about separating MIB's spirit from his body -- i.e., Smokey.

Greg Tramel said...

i agree with what somebody said above about Taweret being a big Kahona on the island and more powerful than Smokie

and to continue or Egyptian theme i would say Smokie feeds on the island disembodied souls as depicted in the hieroglyph but also needs a dead human body or animal carcass(dog, polar bear, hurley bird, boar ...) to manifest in a human or animal form

Thunderstorm said...

Damon twittered this

"Yes. The Spanish Promo is incredible. But is Tawaret the King... or the QUEEN? Cuatro will not return my calls."

Make of it what you will.

Greg Tramel said...

COOL!! we're on the right track

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just a quick thought on the "lighthouse" mentioned in the hangman puzzle. As we know there aren't any towers along the Island's shore, I know my initial reaction was to think of another subterranean DHARMA installation. But the other Lighthouse station was used to locate the Island from afar, obviously unecessary if you're already there. So what if the clue is more literal? Got me thinking that the statue may have been used as a lighthouse - with a fire lit somehow on the top of Taweret's pill box hat.

I've had a few discussions elsewhere about how one of the most curious aspects of the statue is that it was placed near the shoreline facing out to sea. Not indicative of being used as regular place of worship. So maybe like the Colossus of Rhodes and Statue of Liberty, it was there to welcome people in.

Now add to this Jacob "bringing" the Blaok Rock to the Island. I'm not suggesting that he didn't use other, more supernatural means to guide the ship in as well, but look where it ultimately approached the shore. Directly in sight of the statue. Imagine a nineteenth century sailing vessel lost at sea, probably in rough waters, and seeing a beacon - they'd head right to it. And I kind of like the idea of Jacob as a lighthouse keeper as symbolical of his role in guiding the Losties' lives.

Finally, wouldn't a fitting, cataclysmic consequence of MiB's anger at Jacob for bringing the Black Rock be a tsunmai like wave that washes the ship up onto the Island and destroys the statue as well? (No matter what, I have a strong suspicion that the ship ending up in the Dark Territory and Taweret tumbling were likely part of the same event.)

So to sum up the possible interconnectedness (Dirk Gently would be happy) cited in the hangman clue as I see it:
Flocke is Smokie, and is/was MiB too. The Taweret statue was the lighthouse, which was destroyed by MiB/Smokie following the arrival of the Black Rock. And just maybe on board the Black Rock was a Kwon...

Bigmouth said...

NetProphet: Duuuuuuuuuude! Best speculation I've heard re the meaning of the Lighthouse.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Thanks Big! Idea came to me laying awake in bed last night. Not sure why, seeing as I had just watched Top Chef.

I forgot to talk about Jacob keeping the large fire lit in his little abode beneath the feet as be-fitting of an ancient lighthouse as well. The beacon would not be kept lit at day times to conserve fuel consumption, but a fire would always be kept burning nearby in case of emergency.

Bigmouth said...

Just musing a bit about the Loophole's relationship to the Freighter. It seems to me that MIB has a kind of modus operandi where he delays inevitable outcomes to effectuate his Loophole. One example was sending Desmond visions of Charlie's death, then exploiting Desmond's guilt save Charlie long enough for him to make contact with Penny. It occurs to me that something similar happened on the freighter. Specifically, MIB used Michael to delay the explosion long enough to get Jin off the boat. This then allows Ben to use Jin being alive as incentive to convince Sun to return to the Island with Locke's body.

One interesting implication of this speculation is that it suggests Michael and Walt leaving the Island was MIB's plan.

Bigmouth said...

Is Penny another key to the loophole? She was, after all, the excuse Ben used to exile Widmore from the Island.

neoloki said...

Only thing Netprophet with the Lighthouse being 4Toes is the pictures from the Lighthouse shoots, of the base, look noticeably different. Also, the filming during these scene's (Jack trying to kick in the door) is a completely different location on the Island. Up on the cliffs with a trail leading to it.

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