Thursday, November 19, 2009

Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

Due to popular demand, I've created a separate post for spoiler discussions.  Feel free to post your spoiler speculations about Season 6, but please limit your discussion of them to this post, and this post only.  As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

380 comments:

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f/k/a NetProphet said...

Neoloki:

Sorry - haven't seen the photos. Are they specifically referenced as being shots of THE lighthouse as opposed to shots of some location from the episode entitled Lighthouse? If so, all I can say is - DOH! There goes another of my Lost theories!

Bigmouth:

Love all of the loophole connections. Its amazing how much scheming and manipulation we can now attribute to MiB. I've long felt that Desmond's visions of Charlie were a con job on both he and Charlie for that specific result. Even master schemer Ben appears to be little more than a pawn in a master's game at this point.

neoloki said...

They are shot's from the episode The Lighthouse of a structure (specifically the base. I'm guessing they will CGI the rest) that has a similar base as the statue, but smaller and in a different location on the Island.

Who knows though. I consider all theories to be in play until they are physically disproven by watching the show.

Bigmouth said...

Interesting...I missed that one, neoloki. Any word on whether the Lighthouse is associated with Jacob or MIB?

David said...

So,

Who's Penny's mother?

Does it matter?

Bigmouth said...

Oh, wow, I just had a whackadoo idea based on Lostmio's observations re Horace blowing trees up. What if MIB/Smokey was impersonating him for some or all of the time we saw him? Maybe MIB/Smokey killed and copied Horace when he went into the woods to build the Cabin...

neoloki said...

there are pictures in Dark's spoiler section. I would have to review the info, but it seems Jack and Hurley are going to meet someone or demand an audience with someone important.

Bigmouth said...

Wait...I just realized, the Horace thing doesn't work. We saw him dead in the Barracks and in the DHARMA pit.

neoloki said...

I am curious when we come up with Lost theories should it be relevant to consider how it can be communicated to the lowest common denominator of a network TV audience? Does anybody factor in plausibility or the limitations inherent in network acceptability?

I mean ABC wouldn't let TPTB show the statue with 5 toes because they thought it too weird.

This is a sincere question.

neoloki said...

Also, does everybody think we can safely say that Walt's appearances in the first half of season 2, Walt just before Shannon is shot, and the end of season 3, Locke in the Dharma grave, were manipulations from MIB? Or was Walt mentally projecting himself, whether he was aware of what he was doing or not.

This question might seem obvious, but until TPTB confirm it is still conjecture.

MikeNY said...

To use Big's favored expression, here's a wackadoo theory.

Jacob governs life and the land of the living, and the MIB death and the land of the dead (associate him with Anubis/Cerberus if you like).

The interesting argument here is that the MIB would have the ability to move people and things from the spirit world to the real world. Those who did not receive proper (Egyptian) burial rights would be susceptible to use by the MIB. In particular, the Ka, which appears to be somewhat like a copy of one's body, minus the soul, could be borrowed by the MIB. The MIB's power lets these manifestations have actual substance in the real world, like ghost-Alex and ghost-Christian.

A few implications:

* The smoke could be the MIB visiting from the land of the dead without a borrowed body (Ka).

* The cabin could disappear and move because it's being repeatedly borrowed (and repositioned at will, like the bodies) from the land of the dead. Horace was only about to build it in the real world when he was killed. He built in the land of the dead instead.

* The Others do perform proper rights, as we were shown, and the need to do so motivates their reclamation of the fallen.

Capcom said...

Great ideas everyone! I've been trying to keep up with the final breakneck pace of the poster thing, so I haven't commented here but have been reading all your great thoughts nonetheless.

In case anyone is into a little S6 sleuthing, Paul Scheer did an interview yesterday taking fan's questions, and one of the things that he said was that we have missed a clue for S6 in the NYC Ping Pong reveal. Why that might be of interest to us Sickies on the speculation thread is that there was a short promo video at the Ping Pong place that someone taped, and included in the vid is a shot of the famous painting of the Linder Gallery, that is steeped in our kind of iconography and symbolism. A good starting site for it is here: link There is more info to be found at LostARGs of course, and I'm sure that our own Mystic Librarian has or can find some more on it. There is also a fantastic link posted in the comments of the site I linked above for another site that has all the symbols in the painting numbered and labelled.

If no one here has the chance to check all that out, I'll come back and post anything that the Argies might figure out as pertaining to any spoiler spec derived from the painting.

:-)

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just wanted to touch on Bigmouth's idea re: Horace. Seems to me Locke's broken record dream/vision of Horace chopping wood was almost certainly another MiB trick using a dead body to influence things his way. We know Horace's dead body is in the slaughter pit, as the whole point of his (borrowed) image appearing is to convince Locke to go find it, and in turn the cabin. As is well noted, it seems more and more likely that MiB was actually the one trapped in there.

Some of MikeNY's ideas coincide nicely with some thoughts I've had on the possible use of the Ancient Egyptian concept of a multi-part soul/identity. Further reading here if interested:
Knocking on Death's Door: Psychopomps & Doppelgangers

BTW - the more I think on it, the more I'm convinced that the "Alt" we'll see has nothing to do with jughead or there being any kind of reset. Just a completely separate reality with distinct versions of the characters that will be drawn into the conflict on the Island - a hub of realities where all things will converge.

Greg Tramel said...

NYMike & Netprophet, i'm digging this line of thought

Team MIB (Anubis, Apep, Smokie) weighing hearts and feeding the sinful ones to the Beast(Cerberus)

since Lost uses a combination of Greek (Apollo, Penelope, Cerberus) and Egyptian mythology I let somebody else take on the Christian Beast symbolism and such)

for the Egyptian side of symbolism this would make Jacob Aten (often described as having his goodness beamed out in rays, remember his weaving)

Team Jakob (Aten) also includes Richard (Ra) & Illana (Hathor) & Horace (Horus)

speaking of Ka we may also associate these disembodied souls with Ba, i'll let somebody else take this further with Ka'Ba (Kaaba) and Kabals (Cabals, Windmore & Paik Industries, Secret Societies) and then in turn take the Kabbalah route

Greg Tramel said...

forgot to include Helen along with the Greek mythology symbolism

all that being said, of course we can't analyze all the allusions completely by the book since we do have a hodgepodge of Egyptian, Greek and Christian symbology

Greg Tramel said...

a case could be easily made for Illana=Isis as well

Gods and goddesses in Duat (The Island) are:

* Osiris
* Isis
* Nephthys
* Anubis
* Horus' sons
* Ammit
* Hathor
* Amunet
* Neith

Greg Tramel said...

"Ra, the Egyptian sun god who travels through the underworld, from the time when the sun sets in the west and rises again in the east. It is said that the dead Pharaoh is taking this same journey, ultimately to become one with Ra and live forever."

like Richard

Greg Tramel said...

"The ba (or soul) of Ra unites with his own body, or alternatively with the ba of Osiris within the circle formed by the mehen serpent."

like Eloise's broach

"adversary Apep is in wait and has to be subdued by the magic of Isis"

Greg Tramel said...

and Aten as the "giver of life" fits right in with MikeNY's idea of Jacob governing the land of living

But also allows us to come full circle by tying Aten into Akhenaten which leads us back to the Nephilim

anyway, i think we looked at this Aten symbol before but here it is again, look familiar?

Aten

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Greg Tramel:

Some great thoughts! I do think, however, it may be a mistake to view this all too literally in terms of any single mythology. Just as the Island may be considered a root source for various mythical islands such as Atlantis, Mu, Tir na Nog, Naboomboo, etc., without really being any one of those things, I'm guessing that Jacob and MiB are really archetypes that the Egyptian contingent on the Island co-opted into their own beliefs.

That said, here is a little idea using some of the Egyptian mythology referenced in the show so far:

It all comes down to a classic love triangle involving Taweret, her mate and her consort. As first conceived, Taweret was the spouse of the evil Apep. Bigmouth has previously noted the possibility that MiB/Smokey may be linked to Apep. Historically, as the role of Taweret changed over time and she came to be viewed as more of a protective mother goddess, she was linked to Sobek as being her consort. Notably, Sobek was considered to be an avatar of Ra, who course was a sun god with close links to the later Greek god Apollo. There are lots of interesting tidbits about Sobek I like that make him a good match to Jacob I don't have time to list here. In any event, could it be possible that there was a female entity that Jacob and MiB had a falling out over? Could this be the source of things such as the pregnancy problem? (Does Jacob plus Taweret = Jaweret?)

dj said...

Oh wow. Yikes. See, this is the problem with brilliant people. You guys have successfully written your own universe out of building blocks from LOST!

Don't get me wrong, most of it is plausible... but
1) disservice to loyal fans or no, TPTB wouldn't alienate everyone else by getting this incredibly intricate, and
2) TPTB have always managed to pull things together very elegantly, and a lot of this is anything but elegant. Complex, thought-invoking, fitting, fun to read and puzzle over, and ultimately awesome... but not elegant.

I've read this whole thread and the big thing that's killing me is the confusion about MIB, Jacob, and Smokie. Are they one, are they three, are they one and a merged... auuuugh. Fair questions though, because it still isn't super clear.

What IS perfectly clear is that MIB and Flocke are the same ("I guess you found your loophole"). And frankly, based on the Temple scene with Ben, Flocke, and then (F)Alex, I think MIB is Smokie. Why? Ben summons Smokie and Flocke bolts because he (Smokie) can't be in two places at once. And even before that, Ben summoned Smokie in Dharmaville and he didn't come -- and we got the irony... "I can't control what's about to come out of the jungle..." says Ben, and here comes Flocke. So we all chuckle to ourselves, but TPTB just ate our faces. Ben CAN'T control that and it IS Smokie. Har har har.

The Cabin does muddle things quite a bit. Someone spoke to John ("help me"), and to be honest I think it was MIB. I don't think Jacob has done a damn thing this entire time. MIB has been masquerading as the spirit of the Island, manipulating everyone. Sure, Jacob poked everyone off-Island, and he probably brought people there, but once there? Nah. He's been hanging out in the foot, playing with his sewing machine. Ben didn't know Jacob was there, so any "lists" acquired from "Jacob" earlier in the show were clearly NOT from Jacob. One must wonder what's up with Richard leading Flocke AND Ben to Jacob in S5... Shouldn't Ben know where Jacob is? Or at least shouldn't Richard BELIEVE Ben knows where Jacob is? That's mighty odd.

I still don't understand the Cabin's specialness... the ash, who hangs out in it, why Christian AND Claire are there simultaneously, if one or both are possessed, what that would mean, etc. It gets worse when Ilana stops by, comments on the ash, notes that "someone else has been using [the cabin]", finds the picture of the statue, then torches the place... And the poltergeist shit that happened the first time we went in with Ben and Locke? Seriously, what the hell is with this place?

I'd also like to note that the whole "breaking the ash circle" thing... many assume Claire did this? The Cabin has been moving through the jungle long before Claire wandered off at night with Christian. Something else is going on with that.

I choose to believe there is no third entity simple because TPTB have set us up for a very epic Light vs Dark battle for... well, 5 seasons now... I think, as Locke said so early on, that there are two players.

RAMBLE!!! But let's be fair, I just combed through 200+ comments. Dizamn, y'all. =)

Oh hey. The Cabin is a metaphor for the Island. DISCUSS/CONSIDER!

neoloki said...

DJ

Elegance is not in the idea but how the idea is spoken. This is what good writer's do. They take very complex theories and make them accessible to the masses. It would be similar to Greene explaining Quantum Mechanics vs a middling physics teacher at a community college. Greene can make it dynamic, interesting and accessible, while the community college professor would just leave you feeling heavy and confused.

Also, let's take the idea of Jacob, MIB and Smokie being three heads of the same beast. Is this idea less plausible or elegant than two Locke's within 100 yards of each other, one a copy and the other the "real" dead body. There are other examples, but what you are reading are rough draft's. Don't be so quick to dismiss. In the end it probably does not matter because the true fun of creating a Lost theory is being wrong.

dj said...

I wasn't trying to put a negative spin on the guesswork... this discussion has been incredible. I think what bothers me is the lack of evidence. I know, I know, so many things have been purposefully left wide open so as to allow for a wide array of possibilities, such as the ones proposed here... But I wonder if we aren't getting the least bit offtrack?

For example, 3 heads of the same beast. What implications does that have for some of the clues we've been given thus far? For example, the hieroglyphs Ben saw at the bottom of the Temple? How does that mesh?

Greg Tramel said...

totally agree with you Netprophet to not take any mythology too literal

i see Jacob as an amalgam of the biblical Jacob, Lucifer, Aten, Sobek, Ra, Apollo, and so forth

actually, FOR ME one of the subthemes is how religions/mythology build on top of each other and i think we will literly see that in the temple

to answer Neoloki and DJ, that's an emphatic no for me, i don't take in account audience believability and understanding in my theories

many of my friends are happy just to watch Lost each week as an exciting adventure story with love story melodrama themes on a physical bermuda triangle type island somewhere on earth in the South Pacific which is just fine by me

i doubt TPTB CONSCIOUSLY intended to evoke the Zietgiest Movement, Sirius, Nephilim, Nibiru and Jewish Mysticism but we bring our own baggage along when deconstructing the text

for example, I see Freudian id, ego, and superego themes (and Big has mentioned these themes in Lost)in Faulkner's Sound and the Fury but i doubt Falukner concouisly inteded to evoke Freud or maybe he did but it doesn't really matter what his intention is in my reading of the text and the same with TPTB's conscious symbolical intentions in Lost

anyway i promise not to open the whole postmodern can of worms agian

Greg Tramel said...

that's the beauty of the show, it allows one to go off on crazy tangents if you so desire for more enjoyment of the show but even though we may be off the deep end it doesn't make it any less of a fun ride or less relevant in regrds to TPTB big picture

i don't completely understand quantum mechanics (especially the underlying math behind it)but that does not stop me from diving in and shouldn't prevent TPTB from dabbling in it even though some of the audience might be totally lost

dj said...

Let me clarify so as to not come off as a big jerk before anyone else arrives and continues the discussion... I think the ONLY thing lacking in most of these ideas is elegance. Pieces fitting easily and satisfyingly together in the great puzzle. Some of it sounds like the puzzle pieces didn't fit and we got frustrated/creative and mashed them into place. It still works and damn it's intriguing, but it lacks elegance.

Greg Tramel said...

i'm not knocking you at all DJ, i TOTALLY agree i'm not the best writer and my ideas have LOTs of loose ends but i'm having fun with it nevertheless

Greg Tramel said...

comic relief

Smoke Monster From 'Lost' Given Own Primetime Spin-Off Series

Greg Tramel said...

and to get back to the Smokie/MIB question

I see Smokie as the source entity for the completion of the manisfestiaton of Flocke, MIB, Claire, Christian

for example using Locke's Ka (lifeless body)and Nemesis' Ba (bodyless soul) to manifest as Flocke

and for example using MIB's lifeless body and Nemisis' soul to manifest as MIB

in a sense Smokie can act as Cerebus manifesting into 3 different bodies at the same time

Greg Tramel said...

oh and the 3 heads in the hieroglyph is for me, Annubis, Smokie and Vincent

Greg Tramel said...

and the Cereberus (3 headed beast) notion orginated with the blast door map (at least for me)

Cerberus Vent

Capcom said...

Heheh, funny link. :-D

DJ, what you're saying is why I don't get heavily into the speculation part of interpreting Lost, because:

A)whatever we come up with, no matter how satisfying, could be completely different from what TPTB have dreamed up anyway;

B)if we do figure it out, then I'm going to be disappointed when we see it in the show and I have to say, "Well we knew that was going to happen";

C)all we have to go on even now is a big puzzle with 1/6th of the pieces missing, so there's no point in me creating my own pieces to complete the puzzle, and then I go back to "A" again if I do.

But having said that, I have learned a ton of things from reading everyone elses' specs and theories and research, as this show has driven us to study and discuss such incredibly compelling topics, by how TPTB pull bits and pieces and hints from so many areas of human history and thought to put into this strange tale. I really enjoy reading everyone's theories, even though I might keep my own down to a bare minimum for the aforementioned reasons.

To me, mental brainstorming is one of the most interesting intellectual activities, and in the age we live in that doesn't happen very often, as it has in eras past even not so long ago, i.e. in literary and art "salons"*, etc. Lost-talk has created the next best thing to that on the internet and I've really enjoyed it.

*"A salon is a gathering of intellectual, social, political, and cultural elites under the roof of an inspiring hostess or host, partly to amuse one another and partly to refine their taste and increase their knowledge through conversation. These gatherings often consciously following Horace's definition of the aims of poetry, "either to please or to educate" ("aut delectare aut prodesse est"). The salons, commonly associated with French literary and philosophical salons of the 17th century and 18th century, were carried on until quite recently in urban settings among like-minded people of a 'set': many 20th-century salons could be instanced."(Wiki)

Anyway, I wasn't disagreeing with you DJ, I just took the occasion to say that I LOVE reading everyone's ideas here, no matter how whackadoo!

:-D (sorry for superlong post)

Greg Tramel said...

NetProphet i like your Jacob/MIB/ Taweret love triangle as a mirror of the Jack/Sawyer/Kate triangle

the notion of Jaweret begetting Illana led me to think of The Others as Nephilim again

Greg Tramel said...

yes, i agree Capcom & DJ, we are basing our theories on an incomplete box of puzzle pieces forcing some of them to fit together but it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys

Greg Tramel said...

BTW, Dollhouse rocked last night

Capcom said...

Crud, I was at a parade last night and missed it. :-(

dj said...

It is definitely more fun than a barrel of monkeys. It's just an extremely long chain of monkeys right now. =)

I admit it's really fun to hear something and then, hmm, that name sounds familiar... and you go dig it up and BAM you've made a connection. I think that's what S6 will be all about, and it's kind of like a bunch of mental orgasms. Each answer given and grand connection made will just be this flood of happy, especially after how much we've invested in the show. I'm really excited about thus upcoming moments!

I'm also really sad that it's coming to an end with no replacement in sight. The only thing remotely close is Fringe, and while Fringe is wonderful in its own right, it's definitely not LOST. Fewer characters, fewer strands, and the storytelling is more-or-less "police procedural". These are not bad things -- just different things. And FlashForward isn't half the show LOST is... it never will be. What is left. =(

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, i do like to see how long a monkey chain i can create

i have high hopes for Caprica but i doubt it will hold a candle to Lost

i'm enjoying FF these days, i think it's finally finding it footing and pacing and i think Benford will get killed off this season

Thunderstorm said...

I have (hopefully) a real simple question for all of you fine people.

In the ep. The Beginning of the End. season 4 premiere, Hurley finds the Cabin. He sees Christian sitting in the chair and then the strange man appears in front of Christian and we only get to see his eye.

Are these two completely different entities? If so, what are we dealing with here?

Seems to me, if you make Christian = Smokey and say that MIB = Smokey, you've got a third entity (that didn't look much like Jacob).

I'll leave it here and see what you guys think. I might be missing an obvious point but I believe this supports the 'possession' of Smokey by MIB idea. Help me out, y'all.

Thunderstorm said...

Wanted to clarify...if you ignore any '3rd entity' speculation, then you can just make The Eye Man = MIB.

So basically I am looking for other ideas outside of this.

Ok, restating the simple question:

What/who did Hurley see in the Cabin?

neoloki said...

Thunderstorm

I brought up this same question back a few articles. Big had some good info on the subject and so did Wayne.

What I remember reading was Hurley originally was meant to see himself in the chair, but they through it out because they felt it was too confusing. Correct me if I am wrong Big. I have a bad memory.

If you go with the idea that Claire is dead than that also creates a third. Possibility that Smokie can replicate himself in different forms in the same area. Much like when Eko, before he was killed, was confronted by three former "colleagues" and a little boy in the jungle. Those were all Smokie. So, I don't really buy this idea that Smokie can't be 2 people in the same place at the same time. re: Flocke had to disappear to become Smokie to judge Ben.

dj said...

Good point. Smokie did manage to become x number of medusa spiders. Perhaps he uses the Cabin as a meat locker?

Maybe Flocke had to bail when "Alex" bossed Ben around simply for dramatic effect (on Ben)?

neoloki said...

I believe certain things are mental manifestations. The Black Box is a metaphor for the Island. Medusa Spiders, Black Horse, Dave

Greg Tramel said...

"possible catastrophic malfunction of Cerberus system"

neoloki said...

thanks for the link. I like that guys blog. Forgot about it.

Here is a link to Donovan's blog. He comments around and has some great idea's. Greg you might like The Duat article.

http://criticallylost.blogspot.com/

Greg Tramel said...

Trinity anyone?

Greg Tramel said...

Evil Eye

Panoptic Age

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Don't have time for a full post right now, but just saw the new spoiler images assumed to be from the temple. The Trimuti statues fit nicely with everything we've been discussing - trinity, Cerberus, etc.

While I think MiB=Smokie and that we accordingly have an as yet to be identified party as part of the Lost trinity, it certainly is possible that Jacob/MiB/Smokie is it. Looking forward to further debate!

Bigmouth said...

Here's a whackadoo thought -- what if Smokey is actually FEMALE?

Also, in light of the Hindu imagery on the Temple, I'm linking to one of my favorite theories, 108: Restoring the Lost Sun. The neo-Gnostic "supermind" is very similar to the concept of the Omega Point.

Greg Tramel said...

thanks for the links NetProphet, Neoloki and Big

so now we have another 3 headed god, Trimurti

good to get Hinduism & Gnosticism into the mix but as expected

MikeNY said...

Which came first (for the peole who built the statue):

Brahma, Vishnu, and Vishnu

or MiB and Jacob?

If it's the former than I see less need for a third entity (a separate Brahma/creator).

(Wonderful discussion here!)

MikeNY said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MikeNY said...

Sorry... statue = temple, and 2nd Vishnu = Shiva

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Bigmouth:

If Smokie ends up being a "female" entity, it would go a long, long way in explaining why it has been so fickle... (insert imaginary smiley face here)

Anyhow, I was taking a closer look at the new photos and noticed the intriguing shot of what looks like a stand alone doorway that appears to lead directly underground, kind of like a sloped, bulkhead type exterior basement door. More importantly this door appears to be barred from the outside, as if keeping something in! A Cerberus vent?

Thunderstorm said...

So is Smokey (aka Cerberus on the BDM) apart from the 'triad' or part of it?

Very cool how are speculation evolved in this direction and then we see this. I guess our wacky speculations aren't totally for naught. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deities

Thunderstorm said...

Sorry, not "are" but "our" sheesh...

f/k/a NetProphet said...

"Bigmouth said...
Here's a whackadoo thought -- what if Smokey is actually FEMALE?"

Just noticed that this tricephalous Trimurti statue clearly has a female aspect front and center. Between this and the Taweret statue, I think its pretty likely there is a female prong of the Lost trinity - be it Smokie or some as yet unrevealed person.

BTW - Can I claim dibs on coinage of "Jaweret"?

Greg Tramel said...

yep, netprophet, Jaweret is all yours

i'm still stumped with Illana being Jacob's daughter unless it is more metaphorical like saying Jacob is Richard's father

i don't really see Smokey as being male or female but it does have the ability to manifest as male and female humans in a Cerberus manner

So Smokey has manifested as a Cerberus into Christian, Claire and Flocke at the same time so in this sense Smokey is not one of the actually heads but is the source entity that manifests into three heads

Capcom said...

LOL guys, on the female stuff. Also, if Juliet is dead, I wonder if Smokey will imitate her too at some point if the occasion necessitates it?

OT: Greg are you in TX? I can't remember. If so, FYI: http://www.collectspace.com/ubb/Forum41/HTML/000305.html

Capcom said...

Rats, let me link that properly: Outpost Astro Bar Closing

Greg Tramel said...

yep, i'm in the north part of the Houston Metroplex and NASA is a couple of hours south from me

i've been to bars and restaurant around NASA but never the Outpost

Greg Tramel said...

yes Capcom, that could explain how dead Juliet appears in Season 6

Greg Tramel said...

as far as who's been on the island longer: Taweret builders, hieroglyph creators or Jacob, i would think since the island is outside of time they were all there always

Capcom said...

I agree, "only fools are enslaved by time" and all that. Historical inhabitants would not have to arrive in time-line order at all.

neoloki said...

I am kind of partial to the idea that Smokey is a collection of every person who has died on the Island or at least every person it has had access to. He/she (lol) collects peoples consciousness by scanning them (white flashes) and assimilates part of the deceased persons ashes into it's being.

Thunderstorm said...

Are we dealing with a Hindu Temple above an Egyptian ...underground... I don't know what to call it?

What does this mean?

Safe to say that whatever is in the Temple was worshiped by at least two completely different cultural groups, probably at different times?

There was also the Dharma Temple logo on one of Ben's maps. All very strange.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just read Kristin's latest report about the seemingly incompatible portrayal of a reality where 815 never crashed while also showing Jack and company in the 1970's post incident. Again reinforces my belief that we are dealing with a distinct reality unrelated to jughead and the incident as opposed to some branching/alternate reality. I'm postulating a scenario where the 1970's gang - permanently stuck in the past - become shadow players in a gambit to bring the other universe versions of themselves to the Island in the late 2000's. Could even have "old" versions of Jack et al. meet up with the other universe versions...

BTW - why does Kristin assume everybody thought Claire was dead?

Greg Tramel said...

Thunderstorm, i would say it is just like what we see in our "real" world wherein temples are built on top of other religion's strcutres and sacred places

awhile back we speculated the wall around the temple was Sumerian

so we really have 2 options:

(1) actual Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and so forth actually inhabited the island

(2) secret societies appropriating ancient religious icons

Greg Tramel said...

some pretty good tapestries & hieroglyphs photos here

but when/where did we see the red tapestry?

A Final Look at Lost S5 on DVD – Hieryoglyphs and Tapestries

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Oops - just re-read Kristin's report about "a very pretty someone" still being alive in the timeline we last saw her. Originally thought she meant Claire, but now realize she must mean Juliet! Kristin juxtaposes that storyline as being separate/ incompatible to one with 815 landing in LA, and the only "very pretty" person widely assumed to be dead in the 1970's gang I can think of is Sawyer's DHARMA love mate.

Bottom Line: Looks like Juliet will be seen alive and kicking in the late 1970's.

Capcom said...

I agree about Smokey, Neoloki. Especially in light of the idea we have that burying dead bodies seems to be more important than just for hiding them from the Hostiles or out of respect. Although it doesn't explain why the Hostiles merely threw the dead DIs into a ditch, but perhaps they didn't care if Smokey got to them.

I can't figure out the red cloth either Greg, but McAfee didn't like that site and shut down my connection, so I'll have to give it a look again.

I like the idea of the 1977-FBers being around to watch the later island activites. Just add them to the whisper bunch. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

NetProphet, couldn't it still be Smokey or Jacob manifesting as Juliette

Greg Tramel said...

here's an alternate site for the tapestries on the season 5 DVD



tapestry

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Greg Tramel said...
"NetProphet, couldn't it still be Smokey or Jacob manifesting as Juliette"

Sure. Just going off what Kristin reported. Its not clear if she actually saw part or all of the episode or if she is just reporting second hand info. Whatever the source, using the phrase "we find out someone we thought was dead is actually alive" gives a clear impression that this character is seen as more than just some fleeting, ambiguous vision.

In any event, in one way or another it seems that we'll be seeing Juliet in some form at the beginning of Season 6. This, of course, is consistent with the report she'll be appearing in a limited number of episodes. If Kristin is right, these appearances will most likely be in the 1970's era. Now, as you point out, the question is: will she be the real deal or a "Fauxliet"? I'm leaning towards the former, but the latter does remain on the table for now.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Greg Tramel:

Thanks for the link to the tapestry stuff!

I don't think we've ever seen the red one before. Looks like a rug or table cloth that may have just been seen in the background in Jacob's place. To everyone out there: NEED TRANSLATION ASAP! Image with multiple arms appears to be holding three spears as well as throwing a couple bodies around and even tearing them apart - SMOKIE!!

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Update on red tapestry:

Ancient Greek translation is far from my specialty, but the phrase right over the monster image (looks like pee d aimati) appears to be a line from the Iliad, Book 4 meaning "the earth ran red with blood."

Working on the rest...

Thunderstorm said...

Dude, those new tapestry pics are awesome. I have no idea where the red one comes from either. But by all means, keep us updated on the possible translations.

NP, I thought she was talking about Claire too and thought the exact same thing. Only a minority of people ever thought she was dead.

But as for Juliet, I have no clue.

Greg,
Do you think it's fair to say that the Egyptian 'lower level' might then predate the upper level?

If they are building a temple on top of a pre-existing sacred ground.

Very interesting to me, the layout of where the Orchid well, the "shadow of the statue" and the Temple are in conjunction with each other. I'd have to assume that possibly the Temple might lie in the shadow of the statue but we saw Miles and Co. at the well, with a view of the back of the statue. So it could very well be the Orchid. Or they could be in close proximity.

Greg Tramel said...

i'm leaning towards Fauxliet

Greg Tramel said...

"Do you think it's fair to say that the Egyptian 'lower level' might then predate the upper level?"

i would say yes archeologically

Greg Tramel said...

"a very pretty someone"

my 1st skim i thought they were talking about Charlotte (i have a thing for redheads) but rereading Juliet seems like the most likely

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg has been cut & pasting a few bits for me to see over here in non-spoilerhound land. I think the three cabins on the mural implies that MIB can inhabit three forms, its an early tell. From what I've read via Greg (around the first post by NetProphet), you all have been discussing the trinty/Cerberus, etc.

I've always thought that Jacob was behind Dharma, more recently thinking that he was the smart man at the Lamp Post. It just seems logical in the way MIB questions J. as the Black Rock sails towards the Island. Ben thinking that Jacob hated technology was just another stab at Ben's ineptness as a leader, at least the way Jacob taunted him. This, if Jacob created the pendulum and the tote board of coordinates.

I have the DI S5 DVD set as of today. The Truce letter from August 1973 isn't a spoiler anymore because it can be found on Lostpedia. There is discussion of the ruins and structures, and I'm wondering if the tunnels lead directly from the Temple to the spot where Horace built the cabin. This would be a great way for MIB to be imprisoned, if one of the Cerberus vents was suddenly the cabin. If this were the case, then MIB would have been imprisoned in the early 70s.

What's up with Annie? Does she exist in the ALT reality or the true one? If we are talking free choice to make the proper reality occur, what if Ben sees a reality where he and Annie are adults and happily married or something? In that reality, there would have been no Alex. Not on a tangent here, but one thing that sticks with me is Annie and those creepy wooden dolls.

Well, I might be back. We'll see. I'm weakening a bit. And I'm curious about this Hangman game, where it appeared, and the significance.

neoloki said...

wow, Wayne in spoiler's. I have to say I have missed your thoughts. I have been thinking about getting out of spoiler land soon, but hope to see you hear again.

I can't believe it is the 8th and I haven't got my Blu-Ray's yet. I feel a little empty today.

neoloki said...

...empty and out of the conversation.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, these aren't Blu-Ray and I'm amazed Amazon got them to me yesterday as I ordered on Saturday night. I remember when this was first advertised it was for Blu-Ray only.

I can't even type this w/o failing to avoid the comment next to me.

Mostly I just wanted to mention the Truce.

Greg Tramel said...

i told Wayne what some of the hangman clues where, ones i thought were not spoilers or in others words nothing about any specific characters

but i can't remember where they first appeared, in Wired Magazine or something?

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Anybody with the DVD set got more info to share about the red tapestry?

Haven't had much chance to fumble around with translations further, but some of the words appear to be "evil", "cloud" and "death" - sounds like Smokie to me!

Greg Tramel said...

thanks for working on the translations netrprophet

i'm just baffled by the pictograms

slaves on black rock or something?

echoing MIB's comments about the folks that Jacob brings to the island end up always fighting with no progress?

Greg Tramel said...

the special knife in the spoiler makes me think of an Athame but i kinda doubt they are taking that route

so we finally get confirmation that Richard has met MIB in the flesh

at least confirmation for me, i wasn't sure who has met MIB as MIB before so i wonder who else has met MIB in the flesh

Bigmouth said...

Yeah, that Richard flashback looks to be among the best ever. I've noted previously the possible analogy between Richard and the Wandering Jew of medieval myth. What if Alpert initially denounces Jacob and sides with MIB before realizing his mistake? And is the knife the one Richard shows little Locke, or is it the one Jacob uses to cut the red herring? So many questions!

Greg Tramel said...

yes, i considered it being the knife Richard showed Locke or Jacob's fish knife

Thunderstorm said...

The latest mention about the Richard-centric has scared me off.

I am bowing out of the spoiler club before I read something I regret.

55 more days to go.

See you guys in non-spoiler territory. :)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Same here, Thunderstorm.

NetProphet, my DVD set is essentially a Christmas present for myself, but if the Truce is up at Lostpedia, I wonder if they will post notes on the tapestry or w/e it is.

Crazy idea about the spoiler and Richard and the knife. Richard asked Locke what thing ALREADY belonged to him. So instead of it being the compass, which would be yet another dodge, the implication is that the KNIFE already belonged to Locke. And if it was Jacob's knife, then it explains why Richard is so freaked out and abrupt. Because there is no reason for Locke to have drawn the smoke monster and then thought Jacob's knife was already his.

I can't actually see this as a spoiler (myself) because I've been seeing only bits and pieces, and am damn curious about this damn lighthouse.

But I'm out of here for now. If it wasn't the last season, I'd likely follow along. (Not to say Greg might drag me back in, he's good at helping a poor guy out.)

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

i just passed some of the non- spoiler discussion to Wayne because i knew he would enjoy it, i cut out anything we didn't know already or were able to speculate about after the end of season 5, in other words i was very selective in which hangman clues i passed to him and i didn't include anything about any actors returning because as far as we know at the end of S5 Jughead exploded and killed everybody on the island

rereading Big's interesting 108 post along with the religious symbolism we have been talking about made think that serving in the hatch was very monk-like and pushing the button was very much a ritual

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Re: Greg's slipping info under the table, the hangman said Kwon is 42. Matches with me saying the numbers represent people.

neoloki said...

I can easily see MIB manipulating Richard as he did Ben to kill Jacob; it's the same knife that Ben ended up killing Jacob with. Richard, however, makes the choice at the moment of assassination when Jacob tells him he has a choice and does not kill Jacob. Thus he is rewarded by Jacob for his empathy and compassion.

Oh, and I believe, it is the same knife Richard presented as one of the choices to young Locke.

neoloki said...

oh, if it matters, not my idea, just my favorite so far.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, if anyone else is still reading this blog entry, I think that a lot of have an idea in our head but someone else writes it down first. The idea that the knife was the one Ben killed Jacob with was overlooked by me, too. I thought of it later, but then I realized that Locke had so many knives to begin with, the one he was shown in 1962 could easily have been one that Locke left behind in 1954.

Bigmouth said...

It's possible, but I've seen screen caps of 2004 Locke's knives, and they all look more modern than the one Richard shows little Locke in 1962. I think MikeNY had a great suggestion over on Dark UFO: the knife in the spoiler is one MIB gives Richard to kill Jacob. But Richard chooses not to, earning immortality. Then -- and this is my own gloss -- Richard shows that same knife to young Locke.

JustJared said...

Interesting train of thought here. I wonder if this explains Richard's reaction to young Locke choosing the Knife when Richard gave him his little test? Richard's emotional reaction may be the first sign we saw of Locke being a threat. I say this because Richard may know the significance of the knife and since he also knows that Locke will end up being leader of the others he feels threatened when Locke chooses the knife. Maybe it shows locke has a tendency that can be exploited by MIB.

Bigmouth said...

JustJared: Agreed -- that makes a lot of sense.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Well, I'm f@cked by reading that last part. Oh, well, I knew where I was, right?

If you guys have that spoiler info, then my point about the knives is moot.

Greg Tramel said...

yes, MikeNY knife idea works

actually, Wayne your ideas still work as well

all the spoiler says is:

2)Richard Alpert has met MIB in his Flashback
3)Richard Alpert has met Jacob in his Flashback
4)Jacob and Richard Alpert are involved in a fight which involves a "special" knife
5)This fight occurs in the 1800's

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx, Greg. So if one were to say that these clues mean that MIB wanted RA to kill Jacob in the 1800s, well, where is the loophole in that? This seems to be a long-festering thing between the two of them, and I still like thinking that RA was on the Island to greet the Black Rockers on Jacob's behalf. MIB was looking for a loophole before the BR arrived, and I can't see a situation involving RA which helps form a loophole.

Greg Tramel said...

i think RA was on Black Rock and never on island before Black Rock got there

neoloki said...

well, I think it has since been disproven the the knifes are the same. at least the one Richard shows young Locke. Not sure about the Ben death knife.

neoloki said...

Wayne, one of the first spoilers we got was in the 2007 time line and Flocke comes out of the statue and proceeds to put a beat down on Richard. The most recent one was Richard meeting MIB back in the 1800's which isn't really much of a spoiler. I think most of us guessed at it for some time.

The more I think about it, the less I care for Richard siding with MIB when he first arrives on the Island. The spoiler reads Richard and jacob are involved in a fight. If the fight was between RA and Jacob there would be no need to be coy about the wording. It would just say RA and Jacob get into a fight that involves a special knife. What if this special knife has a direct impact on Smokie and can damage it's essence. Jacob and Richard fighting Smokie would be pretty epic and I never use that word.

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: Which knives? I've seen screencaps that show Jacob's knife (i.e., that he uses to fillet the fish and to pin the shred of tapestry in the Cabin), Richard's knife (i.e., that he gives to Little Locke), and Locke's knife (i.e., that fLocke gives to Ben in the Foot) are all different. Are those the knives you mean?

neoloki said...

the knife Ben uses to kill Jacob and the knife that young Locke picks which frustrates Richard so. I thought these might be the same and also might be the "special" knife. Too many mights and with too many sleepless nights leaves Jason's mind in a permanent state of whackadoo, doodlie-doo.

Sorry...

But the knife young Locke picks could be the "special" knife.

Greg Tramel said...

ok, so maybe the knife is and atheme ritual knife, ie needed to kill Smokey and/or Nemesis and/or Cerberus and/or MIB

yes, i was COMPLETELY WRONG in my speculation that only Jacob has had interactions with Nemesis in MIB's body

so i'm now ready to take the leap and confirm that The Hostile/Others/maybe Black Rockers have at least seen MIB and most likely have had interactions with MIB

Greg Tramel said...

sorry misspelled (like i always do, LOL)

athame knife

Capcom said...

OK, here I am from the redirect on the other thread...so where are all the tapestry answers? j/k

:o)

Capcom said...

P.S. sorry....that truce is pretty neat, I didn't know that it existed in the kit until today. I thought that everyone was referencing something from the show. :-B

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Ah. Capcom, Jensen first mentioned the Truce letter, but he was ALSO supposed to discuss it this week. Maybe we'll get an extra post, though I believe Big might say that Jeff is behind a week in his posting plans on EW.com. And, as Big said, there isn't much to it, though I LOVE the mimeograph look to it. I'm just curious as to what people might think of this letter being included in the box set? Filler like the ARGs, because it will not be explained in S6? If anything, I like that RA represents the 'indegenous people of the Island,' no name given.

neoloki, I didn't know about the beat down, but it is to be expected. And there are just too many knives that, for me, not looking at screencaps on other sites, I can't keep track. RA was almost freaked out when Locke took that knife instead of the compass. Maybe RA just knew the knife for who it belonged to on the Island. Look at it this way, in 1962, RA at least knows about the compass. And, yea, Locke can't, but hear me out. If that knife plays a role on the Island, its not the one Ben used, etc., still, for RA, it meant something terribly wrong that Locke took the knife. I don't think its as simple as compass=right and any other item=wrong.

neoloki said...

wayne, that is pretty much the direction I have been taking when interpreting Richard's reaction. It could be simple frustration given his doubt of whether Locke is special or not, but coupled with the drawings of the smoke monster on the wall it takes a more ominous turn. Plus, was the knife really the wrong choice for Locke? With what we know choosing the sand, the knife and the compass seems more right than not.

Greg Tramel said...

Capcom, i like your new profile image

the Lost Community blog also has a link to the red tapestry

i've mentioned it before but Neoloki i really like your reinterpretation of the scene with Locke choosing all 3, the sand, the knife and the compass

Wayne, so are your continuing your plunge into spoilertown?

if so i can give you a detail i left out in the hangman clues about Smokey

Greg Tramel said...

i thought the truce was pretty cool when i skimmed it the 1st time awhile back but i just need to go back and read it more thoroughly before commenting

Greg Tramel said...

well, since Shiva has come up with the temple photos this link might be better here than on I Hate My DVR FF post, also as we know, TPTB have mentioned CERN before but i am really more interested in the Shiva synch

ConCERN: LHC Gets First Results In The Search For The God Particle!

neoloki said...

thanks, greg, but I still hold the belief that it is not a reinterpretation. He pulls the compass and the sand (Island) next to him and then scans the other objects in front of him. I guess it could be seen as Locke putting these things aside as objects that are not his, but since the nature of the objects are quintessential Locke and the fact that Richard uses the plural, and not the singular which of these are yours already it seems the logical interpretation. Anyway, all water under the bridge.

Bigmouth said...

Wow...neoloki...that's a GREAT catch! I just watched the scene again, and you are 100% correct. Richard repeatedly says "which of these items belong" -- i.e., plural. That said, the knife does seem to be what sets Richard off. And the way he says it "doesn't belong to" Locke implies to me that Richard knew the real owner. I'm guessing it's MIB.

What keeps throwing me is Richard's later comment that Locke didn't "seem very special" to him. If so, why did Richard seem so alarmed by Locke's choice of the knife? And why did Richard keep visiting Locke in an effort to recruit him??

neoloki said...

the biggest problem is we don't know what is "special". at least as far as being the leader of the Others is concerned. I doubt that it is merely seeing and speaking to dead people. What was so special about Ben. Did he become the leader solely because Sayid shot him. In other words he never would have been taken to the Temple to be healed thus never would have a "specialness" that would be considered enough to be chosen. Also, was Richard simply speaking in reference to Lockes qualifications in being the leader or not special at all. However, given the items he chose and the drawings Locke did as a kid it would seem Richard saw enough for him to keep watching Locke.

Capcom said...

I agree Wayne that the truce document, like the ARGs or at least TLE, is like a little filler-present from TPTB to us, for those who really want to dig deeper to enhance the experience in our brains, even if not necessary to the show.

Yes, RA did act very upset that Johnny didn't take the knife and his comment afterwards as he left were very sharp. Perhaps RA and the Islanders tried to recruit Locke to get him on the right side in time to counter/stop what they possibly knew was going to happen?

Tx Greg! The Hildebrandt Bros are great. I was wishing that they had put Goldberry in the LOTR movies somewhere.

Ben did show some specialness, when he revealed to RA that he saw his mother. I guess that we don't really know what's so special about that, but that perhaps only certain special people can see either Jacob or MIB, and people like that must eventually be observed and analyzed for future recruitment?

Greg Tramel said...

actually Neoloki, months ago when you mentioned your interpretation of the Tibetan Buddhist ritual with Richard and Locke, it was an eye-opening reinterpretation for me

Richard used his initials RA on his addendum instead of using his name Richard Alpert probably does not mean anything at all but for me it does make me think of Ra again

also using the words indigenous inhabitants kinda put up a red flag for me, but i guess what else could they call The Hostiles

but it does make me think maybe there were some indigenous lineage still around when the Black Rockers arrived

i suppose we could assume that already but i kinda thought maybe everybody that was there before Black Rockers were all dead or gone off island

neoloki said...

5 kilometer's around each camp? How freaking big is the Island?
No drilling!? Maybe the Other's were worried that the DI would start finding the turtles if they drilled too far.

Capcom said...

LOL about the turtles! The secret of the universe would be out, for sure.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I just figure I'll see what I see at this point. But I have no clue what the Lighthouse is (nor do I find the need).

The main thing with 1962 is the way RA acts, we all agree on that. And I mentioned that we might see some RA fill in the blanks in his own episode, and see where RA goes directly after leaving Locke's foster pad. We don't see him in person in the 70s, and I suspicion this was just to make that episode more mysterious, as his non-appearance coincided with Mittelos. I've always been curious as to if this is how some of the younger Others (i.e., adult by the 2000s) ended up on the Island. They graduated science camp and got on the sub. Also, the consensus seems to be that Ben was never meant to lead, that the chain of command should have been Widmore to Locke. At the time pirate RA told Ben to be patient, Locke had already turned down the trip to science camp. Perhaps Jacob had told RA about potential candidates to watch for and Ben just happened to be around to see mom.

The 5 km also takes into effect the hills and the Dark Territory, so that works for me. So much of the locations seem along that one shore line. We don't really know the eastern shore, and this could be where much of the Hostile territory (above ground) is.

What I don't get is the statue of Tarawet. The DI must have known it (or the foot) was there. RA's group must have given very specific boundaries, i.e., not completely circular for the DI. Maybe the initial fighting was over the DI wanting to check out the statue.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Also, the word pre-existing is crossed out. Does this mean that the statue as a whole was not a pre-existing ruin?

neoloki said...

Wayne

No one, at this point, has a clue what the lighthouse is all about. They have been able to bury that piece of information and that is good.

I am not reading too much in to the crossing out of preexisting. Could simply be RA did not want to get into a argument over what was preexisting and what was not and just keep the freaking DI away from anything important.

Greg Tramel said...

Wayne, if you dive back into spoilerland again, i did leave the lighthouse on the island clue out but the hangman clue i was cryptic about is:

Smokey now played by Terry O'Quinn

neoloki said...

Yes, thanks Greg, I would be very interested in Wayne interpretation of that one.

Greg, correct me if I am wrong but we have gotten very little to no information so far about the nature of the Lighthouse. Isn't that right or did I miss something.

You can always email me if you don't want to spoil Wayne.
Blogger id for my email addy.

Greg Tramel said...

nope, i haven't much of anything about the island lighthouse

somebody speculated the Tawaret statue served as the lighthouse with a fire in Jacob's lair or something like that

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Well, Greg. I didn't really want that spoiler, but again, I think we all saw that coming, in some way or another.

neoloki, if it is Smokey NOW played by T O'Q, that implies Smokey WASN'T so far. So if T O'Q was MIB in S5, that implies that MIB is NOT Smokey. Or it could be word play, Smokey WAS whatshisname, John Terry? Christian. By not using the character name John Locke, the emphasis is shifted in a different direction. I'll bet we see a scene with Locke and Claire. And what if the trinity is Three Lockes? Kidding.

My first thought on reading of the Lighthouse, I thought of the Black Rock AND the Dark Territory. Again with the mirror imagery, put the radio tower in the center and I'd assume you'd run a straight line from Tarawet to whatever the Lighthouse might be. I'm betting its a metaphor for some type of illumination (well, duh), maybe not for the viewers. Same with the Lamp Post. S2 gave us all those great Dharma station with names based in Greek mythology, which I always thought was cool, for the reading material.

And I STILL don't know where this hangman game was? Were the clues in any specific order, or just seemingly random? There might be something to that. For everything we see, there's something that is just slightly hidden.

I think its time I read this entire spoiler blog, it might help me formulate something. And I'm not really giving in, this place is not nearly as blatant as you know where and you know the other where.

neoloki said...

thanks wayne on the MIB/Smokie/Locke issue. that's where I am at with it.
It seems the hangman games over on Dark's site always have little word games imbedded into them, but try having a reasonable conversation with people once Dark has stated an opinion and it is impossible. the sheep are herded easily, so to speak.

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: What was Dark's opinion?

neoloki said...

MIB=Smokie
Then I asked if that was his opinion based on the hangman game information or his source confirmed that they are the same. He did not answer that question.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

So these are little games that DarkUFO is putting up on his site? Actual spoilers or just rumors he pulled out of his @$$?

Not that it changes what I wrote last night, there's a difference between using O'Quinn's name instead of Locke's. As much as I stay away from that guy's site for the spoilers, its also because of his Flocke of followers, no pun in...well, YES, pun intended, of course it is.

Bigmouth said...

Interesting -- thanks. You asked exactly the right question.

On an unrelated noted, it's curious that the Black Rock seems to be a prison ship, rather than for slaves. And no mention thus far of Magnus Hanso. Unless, of course, that was Richard himself.

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Dark is super reliable. He only posts spoilers when he has confirmation. There's a whole separate section for unverified rumors. Sometimes, he gets burnt by foilers, but very rarely.

Greg Tramel said...

ah! so the chain gang in the red tapestry are prisoners instead of slaves, i suppose

Greg Tramel said...

i suppose The Lighthouse could have been on island before the Tawaret statue was built and the statue was built over The Lighthouse

Greg Tramel said...

actually Wayne, a Locke trinity is not so crazy

(1) Flocke
(2) Jacob reanimation of dead Lock in a box
(3) Locke in the outrigger shootout

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Love the notion that the Red Tapestry is in the Temple!

Greg: Yep, it would seem so. Puts a slightly disturbing gloss on Jacob bringing people to the Island.

Greg Tramel said...

or to go with along with Smokey is NOW played by O'Quinn

(1)Flocke
(2) Smokey reanimating dead Locke in a box
(3) Outrigger shootout Locke

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thx, Big, re: the authenticity of those spoilers. Are you hinting back at Greg that the lighthouse guided ships to the Island to bring prisoners and slaves to build the statue itself? Does that mean that maybe we should think of role-reversal, that long ago, MIB was who Jacob is now, elevated on a pedestal because he knew the right way to get a following (J. I mean)?

If this is the case, what if long ago Jacob wove the red tapestry in the Temple and S5 Jacob wove the tapestry in the statue? Going back to my analogues of Eloise and Widmore, Eloise is a manipulator, Widmore a ham-fisted Lex Luthor. And yet, in the 50s, Widmore was clearly higher elevated than Ellie.

Jacob manipulates people to think they are doing the right thing, MIB goes about it all wrong, and so, at least in 1845, we think MIB is the bad guy. Maybe he was by then, but maybe Jacob was nastier in ancient times.

Greg Tramel said...

it may be a moot point whether or not Jacob or MIB is the most evil or more important tan the other since they may ultimately be just parts of the same entity manifesting as Cerberus heads

maybe why we haven't seen MIB much is because the other 2 heads were being used by other beings

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I was more going by the mirror theory, in that the big con in S5 was the two characters, and the bigger con in S6 will be the role-reversal in the past. Your point is not moot at all, i was just going back to the good/bad mirror imagery we've been handed over the years.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, Wayne, that works

Jacob used to be the bad twin but now MIB is the bad twin

Greg Tramel said...

i DO think Sumerians, ancient Egyptian, ancient Greeks, Hindus, Buddhists and so forth have ACTUALLY spent time on the island but when is up in the air do to island time not jiving with earth time and/or as i mentioned before it could also that The Others are appropriating icons from ancient civilizations and religions

Greg Tramel said...

but back to Smokey=MIB

i think it is true to an extent and when it was speculated that when Ben was being judged, Flocke couldn't also be there because they were one in the same is correct to an extent but the reason was because the other 2 Cerberus heads were being used already

so Smokie and MIB can be seen together as long as only 1 of the other 3 heads is in use

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I made a comment about the Final Season poster on the red tapestry entry. See if you can come up with anything there, though I admit, there might be nothing in the way of clues.

Capcom said...

Interesting to think the slaves vs. prisoners thing. Hmm.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Slaves or prisoners, either way, sucks to have them be forced to build Tarawet.

lostmio said...

Just imo, it's easy to overanalyze Dark's spoilers. They come from various sources and the language is far from precise.

We have these assorted spoilers, from various sources, re Smokie:
- there is a connection between MiB and Smokie.
- MiB = Smokie
- Smokie is now played by Terry O’Quinn

I agree with Neoloki that the middle one is problematic, but I'll roll with it.
There's no way, really, to consolidate them, but here's my feeble attempt:
Way back when, the character we call MiB was just a man.
He died, Smokie manifested in his form.
Now Smokie has manifested in Locke’s form.

I'm not vested in this theory, just putting it out there as one way of meshing the various spoilers w/o going overboard on analysis of the wording in each. Darlton, Kristen, and others love to play with language, but it's folly to presume Dark's sources are getting together to do so.

I love, love Dark's site but I can remember many missteps in seasons past. A notable one was the dinosaur bones thing; those few of us who protested were roundly hooted down by the posters, and Andy chose to stick by his source. As the season unfolded, it became apparent that there was a miscommunication about which "bones" were meant. Andy was talking about the silly huge dinosaur rib cage party thing and his source was talking about the polar bear bones uncovered by Charlotte. Two very very different things.

I'm enjoying the discussion.

lostmio said...

For me, the whole Smokie/MiB thing is a chicken/egg question, ie which came first?
None of the spoilers answer that, but for sure Smokie came before Locke. So for now, I'm going with the idea that Smokie came before MiB.

But who knows? Prior to these spoilers I tended to think that Smokie was a latecomer, maybe was even 'caused' by some Dharma tinkering.

neoloki said...

Lostmio

In the first hangman the wording went MIB and Smokie share a TRAIT.
This coupled with NOW PLAYED BY reenforce to me that MIB does not = Smokie.
I think it is very likely Smokie has taken use of Locke's dead body. Also, it would not be surprising to see MIB take another form, like Claire (I think she is dead), but I don't necessarily think it will happen.

Could Smokie be the true form of Jacob and MIB? The essence? In other words this how they would look without a body. That is if we are to run with the idea that they are three different entities.

neoloki said...

Smokie and MIB are in the cabin when Hurley looks in during The Beginning of the End?

random thought...

Greg Tramel said...

your reasoning works for me, Neoloki and Lostmio

i do think Smokey came before MIB and Jacob or at least the entity that manifests as Smokey which in turn manifests as MIB, Jacob, Christian, Claire, Flocke ...... BUT only 3 at the same time

there are characters coming back in S6 that i would not have guessed in a million years

Capcom said...

Ha! I'm glad that someone besides myself was miffed about those AWOL dino-bones!

Can't wait to see those characters, Greg. :-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

lostmio, back in the day, Bigmouth speculated that quite possibly Dharma did accidentally release the smoke monster. This way right around the time we saw the Blast Door Map.

Can Jacob or MIB be judged by Smokey? As Ben saw the form of Alex, would the third entity in the trinity be seen during a possible judgment?

Wording IS everything, and to use O'Quinn's name instead of Locke's is a tell.

Greg Tramel said...

guess some of these poster clues may be spoilers

somebody found this in the poster 16


815 in the air

Greg Tramel said...

is it unusual Jacob's weaving is in MIBs portrait?

Capcom, it reminds me of the Linder Gallery painting just a tad

MIB in His Studio

Greg Tramel said...

hmm IS MIB TIME?

sand going through his fingers

Bigmouth said...

Greg: Or is the sand a reference to Richard's test, where one of the items offered to Locke was a vial of sand?

Greg Tramel said...

interesting comment on Dark's post relevant to Big's and other theories

Craig said...

"I don't think Eko is looking up at Locke. I think he is looking up at Aaron who is looking down at Eko. And since Claire has a Virgin Mary in her pocket, Aaron may be a religious figure."

Greg Tramel said...

yep, Big could be the vial of sand,

i don't think the MIB portrait would be considered cannon but it sure is thought provoking

Greg Tramel said...

ok i read ALL the comments on the DarkUFO poster post for the 1st and LAST time

i agree with Neoloki:

"the two clues are the ankh in the flame and the plane flying in the sky"

Greg Tramel said...

oh and a wackadoo at that post is there is an ankh in the guitar case Jacob gave Hurley which is a key to unlock The Temple

i kinda doubt it

neoloki said...

yeah, so do I Greg, LOL!!!!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, re: Claire and the Virgin Mary. Go back to "Fire & Water" when Charlie wanted to baptize Aaron and Locke beat the shit out of him. He saw a vision of Claire in just such a way, and the only bad thing was the fact that, for that extremely beautiful and surreal image, the Beechcraft sputtering and crashing in the background was only available on HD or whatever was state-of-the-art in 2006. I cannot see in 3-D due to my right eye being goofy, but that scene with Claire is about the closest to what I think 3-D is. Anyhow, this also goes with the plane flying in the sky, as you mentioned.

Without looking it up, I believe Big's first post is titled "Is Aaron the Messiah?".

Say the ankh is a key (mind you, I haven't looked at the poster). Amy took Paul's ankh after he died. There could be some sort of implication there, particularly if she drifted off to the Others.

The Flame was the communications station, the flame also killed Jacob. So ankh in the flame might be key to communication or something along those lines. Communicating with the dead, of course.

neoloki said...

an ankh in a guitar case though wayne, i mean, it is kind of a silly image.

Greg Tramel said...

i only mentioned the ankh in the guitar case because we love the wackadoos here but it is a little TOO wacky

Capcom said...

Heheh, that's what I said about the Linder Gallery over at LostARGs too Greg! BTW, I numbered all the objects in the painting: link

Oh wow, an ankh in the guitar case is a neat idea. Guess it's a real big one, haha.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

neoloki, I got the joke, but if you think about it, an ankh almost has the perfect shape for a guitar case. Then again, if that was MIB pretending to be Jacob, that could be Charlie's three year old skeleton underneath the lid.

From what you guys were posting, I was just talking about the ankh and the flame and the plane and the Pudding Pops....

Capcom said...

LOL

neoloki said...

sorry, wayne, i thought you were referring to the likelihood of the ankh in the guitar case.
my reaction to the idea is purely aesthetic and intuitive.

but pudding pops, now that makes sense for hurley to be carrying around and it would definitely prove jacob is a good guy looking out for hurley's island appetite.

yes, pudding pops.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just wanted to warn Wayne Allen Sallee:

New hangman game up over at DarkUFO. The last hangman was responsible for breaking my anti-spoiler resolve. I went into forbidden territory in pursuit of what I saw as an intellectual challenge and ended up on a long, dark spiral downward into spoiler dependency.

So hold out brother! Only several more weeks to go....
That said, MORE EXTREME SPOILERAGE BELOW!

-----------------------------

O.K. Saw new pics that appear to show the return of Widmore to the Island! Even better, it looks like he brings along a portable version of the sonic fence that may be used as a barrier against Flocke while having a discussion with him. It may even be possible that Flocke is caged!

Bigmouth said...

NetProphet: Those pics rocked my world too! I'm assuming those portable pylons work like the sonic fence. Ergo, it looks like Smokey is the main thing preventing people from returning to the Island. That's why presumably why Charles hasn't returned in all these years, and why the first thing Ben did was visit Smokey.

PS: Was Widmore mocking MIB by giving Locke the alias of "Jeremy Bentham" who believed natural law was "nonsense on stilts"?

Bigmouth said...

PPS: Should we start a new spoiler post?

Capcom said...

Oh my, that is sweet. :-o

Capcom said...

I guess so, maybe, this one's busting the seams.

Bigmouth said...

I've created a new spoiler post. Please feel free to continue the discussion there...

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