EYE M SICK: More Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

Friday, December 18, 2009

More Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

Due to popular demand, I've created another post for spoiler discussions. Feel free to post your spoiler speculations about Season 6, but please limit your discussion of them to this post, and this post only. As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

331 comments:

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Greg Tramel said...: oh, and i've been meaning to ask when y'all mention 4D beings y'all mean 4-dimensional beings, right?

the reason i'm asking is because i've fallen down a rabbit hole about 4th density beings and i can't get out, guess i have to turn the FDW; January 18, 2010 at 10:54 AM
Bigmouth said...: At this point, I've tentatively concluded that Jacob has no control over Smokey. I'm still torn over whether MIB and Smokey are separate beings or two halves of the same entity. But I feel like the clues point to Smokey being associated exclusively with MIB.

As I say, however, the conclusion is tentative. Part of me still wonders if formal Zombie Christian was working for Jacob. I think it's possible that control over Smokey switched to MIB when the Cabin moved outside the circle, as symbolized by Christian's change of clothes from formal to casual.; January 18, 2010 at 12:09 PM
Bigmouth said...: Greg: Yes, 4D = four-dimensional.; January 18, 2010 at 12:12 PM
MikeNY said...: Damon:
"We did know that when Locke referred to the black and the white [in the pilot], that ultimately that concept was going to be personified by two individuals."

Christmas hangman source:
"The representation of light and dark were always meant to be part of the series, and become actual characters that represent the sides..."

Maybe the personification/representation of "black" minus the person = black "smoke."; January 18, 2010 at 1:12 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i think Jacob and MIB are those black and white characters; January 18, 2010 at 4:07 PM
Greg Tramel said...: Jacob jives as a 4th density entity as well as a 4 dimensional being; January 18, 2010 at 4:10 PM
MikeNY said...: Greg — ergo MiB = Smokey? ;-); January 19, 2010 at 12:19 PM
Anonymous said...: It will be interesting to see what secret Locke told Walt when he weas describing the game of backgammon on the beach. Wouldn't it be interesting to discover that was Flocke all the way back in season 1? Maybe it affected Locke similar to how we see portrayls of possessed people... sometimes they are themselves but increasingly the demon manifests itself through them. Perhaps MIB and Locke have been fighting for control of the body since he woke up on the beach and wiggled his toes.; January 19, 2010 at 2:46 PM
Anonymous said...: Sorry... the above anonymous post is courtesy of justjared.; January 19, 2010 at 2:47 PM
Greg Tramel said...: No MikeNY, i think MIB and Jacob are the "personified by two individuals"

i don't think Smokey is an individual; January 19, 2010 at 3:00 PM
MikeNY said...: No dice, eh?

Here's why I'm comfortable with MiB=SMokey.

It seems to me that the MiW and MiB are either (a) from the extreme future (charged with vetting individuals to restock humanity) or (b) they're light and dark gods.

Either way allows for freaky stuff, like smoke, a magic touch, or apparent immortality. Albeit the god angle makes it easier.

And, plus, parsimony: MiB = Dark cloud = simpler story.

I do, however, appreciate the multi-headed cerberus approach.; January 20, 2010 at 6:33 AM
neoloki said...: What about the Smokie sounds? How does that fit into it being MIB? The crank sound, the taxi receipt sound, the fog horn, etc, al.

Smokie obviously has a technological make up given the pictures we have seen inside the "smoke", it's sensitivity to sonic discharge, and didn't Keamy's thugs set off a electromagnetic pulse to get Smokie off their backs?

just thinking out loud here...; January 20, 2010 at 9:45 AM
Greg Tramel said...: LOSTblog.com Scores Rare Interview with SMOKEY!; January 20, 2010 at 10:21 AM
MikeNY said...: A new spoiler suggests Smokey slaughters the Black Rock crew.

I'm guessing that might be in response to a betrayal by Richard re stabbing Jacob with that "special knife."

In any case, I think the 4th illustration on the tapestry might depict this (where it looks like Anubis is pushing captives toward their death at the hands of the monster).; January 21, 2010 at 8:48 AM
Bigmouth said...: Do you suppose that getting murdered by Smokey is what Richard meant by seeing everyone die?

Also, if MIB and Smokey are one and the same, could its MEMORIES have been stored in the Cabin?; January 21, 2010 at 12:50 PM
MikeNY said...: Big, if you're implying that "everyone" could be on the BR...

The deaths occur by Epi 9, so I doubt Jack et al. would be included in the slaughter. The source would surely have mentioned or conveyed that. Though their deaths would be freaky to see before the finale...; January 22, 2010 at 6:33 AM
MikeNY said...: Given the recent spate of yes/no spoilers, looks like:

815 crash reality — Jughead fails to detonate. Presumably the concrete was poured directly into the hole.

Presumably that leaves open possible detonation in the alt reality or detonation in another place or time (given the teleporting ability of what is probably now best construed as a flash from the exotic matter).; January 22, 2010 at 9:32 AM
Bigmouth said...: Yeah, those yes/no spoilers are really interesting. I see two possibilities besides the one Mike mentions (i.e., bomb detonates in the primary reality):

1) the nuclear core becomes the basis for the Fail-Safe, or

2) the core will be detonated later in the season, ending the split between primary and tangent timelines.; January 22, 2010 at 9:43 AM
MikeNY said...: Big, I really like (2).

Apparently the flash will not shift them to '07.

Perhaps the one thing it achieved beyond theatrics is a shift of the bomb to the future, meaning it could explode in whatever is left of the pocket at some point in the 815-crash-reality future.

I do wonder how they return to '07.
Another flash? I assume it will occur before they're under Dharma's arrest or Richard sees them.; January 22, 2010 at 10:58 AM
Bigmouth said...: Weird...this doesn't shot up in the spoilers, but on the actual Q&A thread it says:

Do the 1977 losties stay in 1977 after the bomb is detonated?

YES and NO; January 22, 2010 at 12:45 PM
Bigmouth said...: Wait...I get it. They stay in 1977 but the bomb does not explode. Duh.; January 22, 2010 at 12:48 PM
Greg Tramel said...: these in the yes column seem a little contradictory but i guess both can be true if it is NOT Jacob coming back to life or is it just a matter of semantics

Is Jacob dead for good?

Is there any talk or hint of Jacob coming back to life in some form or another?; January 22, 2010 at 3:48 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i doubt jughead will ever detonate and blow up the whole island and kill everybody (or ‘kill” a timeline or fuse them) so Big i'm leaning more to (1)

in other words maybe it releases energy but it is not a nuclear bomb explosion like we would have on Earth

yeah, maybe the 77ers won’t flash back to black rock days (or again I suppose I should say since some did already); January 22, 2010 at 5:16 PM
Greg Tramel said...: who's answering these yes and no questions? are we sure there not foilers?; January 22, 2010 at 5:25 PM
Greg Tramel said...: is there any reason that instead of the 77ers flashing to 2007, the 2007ers flash to 1977 and it goes from there; January 24, 2010 at 2:01 PM
MikeNY said...: The epi is probably complete, so I'm sure the source saw a legit version.

With no mention of dharma in the spoilers for the season, I think it's a better bet that they flash to '07.; January 25, 2010 at 5:04 AM
lostmio said...: Greg, many of us think the Jacob 'consciousness' might re-emerge in someone else. Most likely Jack, since his knockout bop on the head and then his awakening coincided uncannily with Jacob's demise.
Ilana thought Frank was unconscious when she made the 'candidate' so that could have been foreshadowing of a sort.

And it fits with Darlton indicators that we'll see the Jack-Locke dynamic again.

If Jacobness does re-emerge, imo it won't take over the entity in the same manner or to the same extent as the MiB Locke takeover. Jack will still be Jack, with his free will.; January 25, 2010 at 8:33 AM
lostmio said...: Greg said "in other words maybe it releases energy but it is not a nuclear bomb explosion like we would have on Earth"

That fits with Faraday's theory that the (positive) Jughead energy would 'neutralize' the (negative) Swan energy. Vice versa applies, right?

I also keep thinking that negative/positive is akin to black/white and dark/light.; January 25, 2010 at 8:37 AM
Bigmouth said...: This comment is from Greg Tramel

good points all, ya'll have read the spoilers alot more closely than i have so i will go with the 77ers flashing to 2007

i still like the notion of Ellie turning the FDW around the same time as The Incident and/or Jughead detonation as a means to get the 77ers with the 2007ers

i suppose it’s possible that they never meet up in time but i think they will want to get at least Jin and Sun together but hey, maybe not, anythign is possible; January 25, 2010 at 2:33 PM
Greg Tramel said...: thanks for moving my comment Big; i'm not really sure where i meant to post it so works for me

i have to go back at the yes/no spoilers but wasn't there some notion that they will remain in 1977 no matter what happened with the incident and/or Jughead detonation?

But I guess I’m on board with the 77ers eventually getting to 2007

I wonder if the temple residents are still in 2008?

maybe all groups will all flash to 2008; January 25, 2010 at 2:55 PM
Greg Tramel said...: yes, lotmio, i could see Jacob “inhabiting” Jack with Jack’s memories still intact

and i very much like the notion of negative/positive energy mirroring black/white

everything has a twin though some may classify it as a bad twin

i guess the mirror on island is something like Project Looking Glass and/or Project Pegasus; January 25, 2010 at 4:11 PM
MikeNY said...: Big - Any revisionist thoughts on the alt timeline given that Juliet dies and Jughead fails in the established timeline?

Id est, is "It's a Wonderful Lost" still your chief scenario?; January 26, 2010 at 3:47 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i'm way behind in reading spoilers but i'm not sure we can say the actions around Jughead being dropped down into what would be the Swan Station categorically failed since every action has a reaction so there may be some ripple effect; January 27, 2010 at 6:09 AM
lostmio said...: Dark's spoiler source probably deduced wrongly re what happened with Jughead, and we viewers will too, when we see the episode.

This imo is how it plays out:

- The 815 safe landing was the *original* timeline.
- The confluence of the Jughead and the Swan energies created the ALT timeline in which 815 crashed.
So everything that we've seen happen on the island in s1-s5 is the post-jughead ALT.
- When S6 starts, the 77's are still on the island post-Jughead because... well, because they're still in the post-Jughead ALT timeline.
They don't realize they changed the timeline from the Original (safe landing) to the ALT (crash) because, as Greg said, and as Faraday implied, there was no kaboom. The energies cancelled each other out. As Miles warned, they created the very thing they were trying to abort.

Ergo, when we're viewing the LA X scenes and aftermath, it'll be very much like watching flashbacks. We'll be seeing what originally, and really, happened pre-Jughead. The only difference will be that the characters won't have any cross-timeline memory or conscious knowledge.

Since Jughead happened in 1977, it altered events starting in 1977.

So, for example, LA school teacher Ben was the original Ben. He originally left the island and went back to the mainland. And so it goes.

There will be holes in the writers' logic but that's to be expected in a character-driven sci-fi epic.; January 27, 2010 at 7:54 AM
lostmio said...: I said The only difference will be that the characters won't have any cross-timeline memory or conscious knowledge.

Possible exceptions: Eloise, and Desmond. Eloise has longed teased us with her cross-timeline knowledge. But it might take awhile for Des's memories to emerge; maybe they'll be in flashes, and he might have to undergo a trigger experience to create the flashes, like he did in the Swan.; January 27, 2010 at 8:06 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: lostmio:

Interesting premise, but how would Jughead's energy have any effect if it doesn't detonate at all? We know Sawyer gets to have a farewell kiss before Juliet dies, which would be an impossibility if any explosion occurred. Are you proposing the bomb did go off, but even the conventional detonating charge necessary to create the atomic reaction was immediately contained so as to not finish off Juliet just mere inches away?

I'm also confused as to your proposal that such negation happened just as planned by Faraday, yet you say it created the Incident they were trying to prevent. Maybe I'm not following you, but it seems to me that if the EM energy were wiped out by Jughead as you say, the Swan station never gets built, no button, etc., etc. and thus no crash. Wouldn't that be creating your so called "original" timeline, not the Alt?

As for the LA X version of reality, I'm wondering why we are apparently going to get a multi episode arc of alternate, theoretically "original", lives play out. I suppose we could ultimately see that reality ending in some Valenzetti predicted doomsday (a Carter Catastrophe) but it seems like a long, elaborate dead end portrayal just to show that the first five seasons of the show were necessary to save humanity. Still mulling this over...; January 27, 2010 at 9:02 AM
lostmio said...: Hurley's visitations from Charlie, Eko, and Ana Lucia have a cross timeline feel, too, don't they?

The Charlie spoilers indicate he's initially an addict but his Hurley visitation was ca 2007, giving him 3 years to clean up his act. Charlie was so changed, it always seemed like more than just a visit from dead Charlie. "I'm dead but also here", hmmm. At SYD, A-L was ready to make up with Mom and maybe to get back to being a cop.

Hard to spec about Dave, we don't know enough about him.; January 27, 2010 at 9:15 AM
lostmio said...: NetProphet, yes I'm working with the premise that JH does "detonate" so to speak, the explosion is neutralized by the Swan implosion, but the process somehow resets time.

If JH didn't 'detonate', what's the point of the whole Jughead storyline? How does 815 both crash and land safely?

I assume an "incident" happened both with and without Jughead since the leak and implosion had already started and would have happened even if the Losties never landed in '77.
But in the original pre-JH timeline, the Swan was never built (which I include when I refer to "The Incident"). Maybe Radzinksy's crew, not ambushed by the Losties, was able to contain the leak. Or maybe the leak was dampened by the imploded materials, and was just catastrophic enough to drive the surviving Dharmites off the island.

Still, I'm not married to the ~LA X is the original timeline theory~. I can make a strong character-driven ~LA X is the ALT~ argument.; January 27, 2010 at 10:05 AM
Bigmouth said...: Mike: Yes, It's a Wonderful Lost appears foreclosed by recent spoilers that the bomb doesn't detonate and Juliet dies. I'm still a little shocked about the bomb -- something I believe Greg Tramel called a while ago. It makes so much sense that it was always the cause of the Incident. I can only assume that its detonation plays a crucial role in some other lynchpin event in Jacob's time loop like the Swan implosion or destruction of the Statue.

Lostmio: Your proposal of a reset from 1977 onwards would make perfect sense but for (admittedly ambiguous) hints that the time loop extends back to Black Rock times. Assuming the spoilers are true that the statue will be glimpsed in the LA X timeline and that some of our Losties will appear in Black Rock times, here's how I see the two timelines:

Timeline 1: The Black Rock doesn't arrive, the Statue isn't destroyed, the Incident never occurs, and Oceanic 815 lands safely in LA. Our Losties will experience a series of events that loosely parallel what we've seen in S1-5 but off the Island and in linear time with no loop. This timeline may or may not culminate in some mass terror event caused by Locke.

Timeline 2: The Black Rock arrives, the Statue is destroyed, the Incident occurs, and Oceanic 815 crashes on the Island. Events play out exactly as we've seen them in S1-5, with our Losties traveling back in time to cause the Incident and perhaps destroy the Statue. Once all those events have occurred, the loop will be complete, and our Losties will flash back to the present.

NetP: I personally would be satisfied with the terrorism storyline for timeline 1. But even if it doesn't happen, the reality depicted therein will still serve an important narrative point. What Jacob and MIB have done is take a preexisting series of causal relationships in linear time and twist them into a time loop. But because this loop is a circle of cause and effect, certain key events must occur for the loop to be completed. Until all of those events occur, the risk remains that the loop will collapse and events default to Timeline 1.; January 27, 2010 at 3:49 PM
MikeNY said...: I formulated a reply in traffic, but Big just nailed it. Thanks.

To be worthwhile, the no-crash timeline must demonstrate some powerful contrast with the established timeline.; January 27, 2010 at 5:39 PM
neoloki said...: with a lot of what Mio said and also Big's response. However, I just don't see the Losties in Black Rock times, but you never know.

Season 1 through 5 being a Tangent universe a la Donnie Darko that will eventually collapse into a primary time line we will see in season 6 is making a lot of sense to me. I am just a little unsure about where it starts. It must be some ramification of The Incident that will be clearer once we see LA X. Unless this Tangent Universe started in the Black Rock times. If so maybe the Losties being present sense makes more sense.
(thinking out loud, sorry)

Oh, I have brought up Jacob influencing Malkin a couple of times before on this board and considering the fact I think Malkin is a fraud through and through, I think that is how things played out.; January 27, 2010 at 8:54 PM
neoloki said...: According to the enhanced version of The Incident, which was shown last night on ABC, Ben was actually telling the truth when he said the statue was like that, just a foot, when he arrived on the Island.; January 27, 2010 at 9:07 PM
neoloki said...: Thunder
I was reading the enhanced version over on Lostpedia and it seems they left some stuff out.

I was making a case for Iliana and crew going to the cabin to tell Jacob about Locke's body. I still believe this, but I doubt TPTB would say they were going to see if MIB was there simply due to the ambiguity surrounding the character. They could have just not mentioned it. So who knows...yet. I believe rather strongly though that the Cabin was used by jacob at some point in time. Could be Horace actually was building the Cabin for Jacob.; January 27, 2010 at 10:30 PM
Bigmouth said...: I just had a really whackadoo idea of how the two timelines merge. What if all of the '77ers die, but before they do, Smokey scans their memories. Then Jacob pulls their twins from the mirror reality and implants the memories using Smokey. What if fLocke was already plucked from the mirror reality by this process?; January 28, 2010 at 7:52 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i’m still reading through the comments form this week but i like Big's whackadoo "Fringe" maneuver, i kinda doubt that's exactly what we will see but i really like the idea

i’m not sure i’m gonna be too keen with this mirror looking glass device but we will just have to see if they can pull it off; January 28, 2010 at 7:57 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i agree there are too many sequential events leading up to 1977 for the timelines to split at 1977 (no matter if Jughead/The Incident did anything to split time/space)

also, Ben and Desmond are on 815 in S6 so that timeline (the badly named alt) must start before 1977

lately i’ve been thinking instead of Team Jack going back to Black Rock days they run into Black Rockers in 1977 (or 2007 or 2008) that were “preserved” in the Temple, yet another reason I am pulling Team Temple out as a 3rd group; January 28, 2010 at 8:21 AM
Greg Tramel said...: maybe all the Black Rockers (including Richard’s wife) and Team Jackers (that Richard saw all die) were taken into the Temple for mummification and regeneration

my added really whackadoo (for entertainment purposes only) is when Jacob visited Illana in the hospital it was actually inside the Temple, of course i doubt that but it’s a fun thought for me; January 28, 2010 at 8:54 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Bigmouth, et al.:

My questioning of the "ALT" reality centers more on the length it will reportedly be shown - 6 or 7 episodes at least -given the limited amount of time left in the show. It just seems like an awful lot to devote to a dead end reality to me. Showing multiple, potentially whacky differences might be fun for awhile (happy chicken magnate Hurley especially), but how much do we really need of this before Valenzetti strikes and wipes it all out?

So, I'm definitely hoping there is more of a point to it all. As Big brings up, TPTB said things will "merge" (everything converges, right?) after several episodes when referring to the different timelines being portrayed at the beginning of Season 6. Somewhere in one of these threads I suggested a similar idea to what Bigmouth proposes - that Jack et al. are replaced by their Alt versions at some point and the originals do die as attested to by Richard. I'm not even sure its necessary to have them acquire the memories from the originals. I'm wondering what it would be like to have Alt Jin, bitter and abandoned by Sun and now prickier than ever, show up to find a loving wife and that he has also miracle child with her.

For what its worth, I was also pondering at what point a split in reality would make sense of what we know. For example, what about Sawyer who experienced his life defining moment in 1976, well before Jughead was brought to the Swan. There is some indication that he is a some sort of cop in the Alt, so would this support a divergence before the Swan incident?; January 28, 2010 at 9:03 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Here is something else to throw in the Alt mix:

In the Mr. Clucks commercial from Comic Con Hurley mentions his good luck following his big lottery win. We know he "originally" won the lottery using the Numbers that he learned from Leonard Simms, who had picked them up while on assignment in the South Pacific with Sam Toomey in 1988. If there is no Swan in 1988, why would the numbers be broadcast in the Alt? Does this indicate that DHARMA is still involved with the Island after the 1977 evac in that reality?

(Obviously a simple solution would be that Hurley just used different numbers and was destined to win anyhow, but I'm just thinking the implications of the "what if" scenario through); January 28, 2010 at 9:41 AM
Capcom said...: The first 4:13 minutes of the premier ep are posted at Approachinglost, and elsewhere. All of it is seen-before footage, except for the final moments that set-up the LAX twist.; January 29, 2010 at 3:32 PM
Greg Tramel said...: anybody get the bottle with the footage on the key/usb? not me :(

i'm going to try to rewatch the original Jack on flight 815 but did he have the same expression on his face before the stewardess fed his alcohol addiction as the "new" footage shows?

so, do they remember the 1st flight 815 crash?; January 30, 2010 at 1:51 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i don't know what this means, are they saying it is a female? or does jacob show it to hurley?

"Does any character from the plane ( flight 815 ) see the statue by himself? No"; January 30, 2010 at 2:22 PM
Greg Tramel said...: Jack on 815 sure acts a lot different to me

original 815 crash

S6 815 flight; January 30, 2010 at 2:42 PM
Greg Tramel said...: do over

S6 Flight 815; January 30, 2010 at 2:47 PM
KoreAmBear said...: @Greg looks like Darlton did not intend for the Pilot and LA X opening scenes to be exactly the same -- Jack has different hair, flight attendant only gives him 1 bottle, no Charlie, Rose seems to have more passengers next to her in the Pilot, etc. There's no way they would have gotten so many things disparate if they didn't intend it.; January 30, 2010 at 6:41 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i was mainly wondering about Jack's expressions right after he looked at the clouds out the window, and yes i totally agree, many differences between the 815 flights

how there going to manage seeing the statue from the plane still has me baffled, maybe this time the island is just a regular island on earth; January 30, 2010 at 7:33 PM
lostmio said...: Remember the S1 golf game when Hurley duffed his shot and wanted a "do-over", and Charlie told him it's called a Mulligan?

The Mulligan began in 1977. Flight 815 was 27 years later, so it's to be expected that the characters' lives and circumstances have been affected.
I can't wait to see how the Mulligan plays out...; January 30, 2010 at 8:31 PM
TerriW said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; January 30, 2010 at 9:43 PM
lostmio said...: Just finished watching the premiere and omg omg omg omg...; January 30, 2010 at 9:50 PM
Ricky said...: @ Lostmio:

I know right!

Nuff Said!; January 31, 2010 at 12:05 AM
MikeNY said...: Ash... ash keeps smokey out. :-); January 31, 2010 at 7:26 AM
MikeNY said...: Then again... could keep him in lol; January 31, 2010 at 7:27 AM
lostmio said...: Mike, that ash circle was cool. I'm glad they gave us that moment.

Looks like JH detonated, but it's not at all clear what's going on with 815.
The underwater sequence blew every spec I have out the window.

Folks everywhere are commenting on the 815 changes. IMO, the present day island doesn't look right either - not in S5 and not in the premiere.; January 31, 2010 at 8:12 AM
lostmio said...: Here's a link to an interesting discussion, from last year, that claimed the underground glyphs suggested a water world.

Likely the poster was totally right re the glyph interpretation. However, I'm not sure the glyphs point to a literal underwater world. Maybe it was foreshadowing that we'd eventually see the underwater scene.; January 31, 2010 at 8:31 AM
MikeNY said...: Yeah...

I think those subtle differences on the plane are just minor ripples due to the detonation and "sinking" in the no-crash reality. Not interesting to me... (yet, anyway :-)).

I think they had constraints on making the Swan site match what was previously just a cgi rendition of the imploded area. I'll grant them that they're establishing only 2 concurrent realities.

I guess the big question is: What does the future hold for a world without an operable island (and possibly without Jacob and the dark monster).

Cool link. I'm also reminded of Des' mural and the chalk drawing of the submerged island behind Abbadon's head in Santa Rosa.; January 31, 2010 at 8:42 AM
MikeNY said...: That chalk drawing (slightly ambiguous with re: to submersion).; January 31, 2010 at 8:46 AM
lostmio said...: Makes me wonder all over again how the Black Rock ended up intact on the island.
And there was that s5 promo poster with the city above and island below the water line.

So we can add under/over water to the black/white, dark/light, yin/yang theme. Maybe there are two realms as well as two players.

And speaking of dark/light, it's notable that all the 6.01 island action is at night. It was way dark.; January 31, 2010 at 9:03 AM
lostmio said...: ok, I'm back to thinking that the ALT815 is the original timeline.

Don't know how the island drowned. Maybe it was a consequence of the original pre-JH incident?

And the Losties just helped the universe course-correct so that the island is saved. That was Plan A, for all players. Now the battle is on for control of the island.

(sorry if I'm giving out TMI for 6.01; the underwater scene is ambigious; it's not clear that the island is/was "literally" submerged. I won't give away any big plot points.); January 31, 2010 at 9:38 AM
Greg Tramel said...: WHAT! y'all went to Hawaii Lostmio, MikeNY,& Ricky?; January 31, 2010 at 9:58 AM
Bigmouth said...: Wow indeed! It sure does look like the split is from 1977 onwards. But I hope they haven't written themselves into a plot hole. If the Incident destroys the Island in the "alt" reality, how can there be an adult Ben Linas in that universe, as other spoilers have indicated? He should have been killed along with the rest of DHARMA.; January 31, 2010 at 9:59 AM
Bigmouth said...: Greg: A really bad version of the epi is available on Dark UFO's site.

BTW, what did Juliet say to Sawyer about the bomb?; January 31, 2010 at 10:00 AM
lostmio said...: lol Greg.
I went to UStream. It streamed live last night, very nice video but badly garbled sound.
It was lots of fun watching it while doing livechat with others.

Right now a replay is up at UStream, you can get there from Dark's Spoiler page. Don't know how long they'll be able to leave it up so hurry if you want to watch it.; January 31, 2010 at 10:01 AM
Bigmouth said...: Mike: I continue to think the ash circle kept Smokey out. The question for me is whether it was protecting Jacob or preventing MIB's soul from being reunited with Smokey.; January 31, 2010 at 10:02 AM
Bigmouth said...: Regarding the Black Rock, I'm still guessing someone moves the Island, which is how the Ledger ended up in Madagascar.; January 31, 2010 at 10:05 AM
lostmio said...: Bigmouth - the original pre-JH incident started a process that caused the island to submerge, but not before the Linus's, Ethan, and others were able to get away.

I just posted at the Fuselage that the purpose of showing us the ALT is to put forth a plotline that a submerged island means something goes very wrong in the world at large. So the Losties saved the island and the world when they detonated JH.

Just can't figure out the Black Rock, tho, since the island didn't drown until after Dharma was there.; January 31, 2010 at 10:06 AM
lostmio said...: oh, ok on the Black Rock thing, Big.
Submerged island threw me a red herring.; January 31, 2010 at 10:07 AM
lostmio said...: Juliet told Sawyer she was pregnant.
I don't know what the writers (Darlton in this case) were thinking. I keep hoping they'll delete it before Tuesday.

Only bad scene in an otherwise fab episode. Best season premier since the Pilot.; January 31, 2010 at 10:09 AM
Bigmouth said...: Lostmio: Aha! The slowly sinking Island makes perfect sense! Just to clarify, did we see the Black Rock in that opening underwater sequence?

So Juliet didn't say anything about the bomb?; January 31, 2010 at 10:10 AM
lostmio said...: Didn't see the BR, I just threw that in.; January 31, 2010 at 10:17 AM
Bigmouth said...: Gotcha. I watched again and can confirm -- no Black Rock.

Does Juliet say "I hit the bomb and we're still here"?; January 31, 2010 at 10:18 AM
Bigmouth said...: What if Jack is the one who chooses which reality survives? Maybe he gets a glimpse of their lives in the "alt" reality through the Lighthouse Mirror.; January 31, 2010 at 10:22 AM
Greg Tramel said...: ah! watching it now; January 31, 2010 at 10:27 AM
MikeNY said...: So what are you all everybody's thoughts on the remaining island story?

MiB is clearly a powerful force, though the porta-fence (TM) will probably mitigate that somewhat.

What then? The feud continues with new vessels, one ultimately loses, or both are completely destroyed?

For a while I thought one might lose in one universe but win in the other. Now though it looks like they both might be out of the picture in the no-crash universe.; January 31, 2010 at 11:09 AM
Bigmouth said...: Mike: What if MIB wanted to destroy the Island all along? A while back, I suggested he might subscribe to a kind of Prime Directive of non-interference. Maybe MIB caused the original Incident, and will try again now that Jacob is dead. His motive is to end the Island's influence on our timeline, or some such thing.

Lostmio: I'm confident they'll pay off the pregnancy thing. At a minimum, it will be Sawyer's motivation for joining fLocke.; January 31, 2010 at 1:41 PM
Bigmouth said...: I'm curious, which reality is it that the bomb detonates? I'm assuming it's the S1-5 reality -- that the Incident would have destroyed the Island otherwise. But I could also see how the bomb going off could destroy the Island.; January 31, 2010 at 1:46 PM
Bigmouth said...: Interesting...here's what I posted in the comments to The Mystery of the Outrigger shootings:

"I think that white flash was actually electromagnetism from the Swan site. I'll elaborate on this in a separate post, but I think Juliet will mind travel and meet Jacob. He will offer her a choice: either detonate the bomb and effectuate the reality we've seen, or don't detonate and destroy the Island, which will reset events from 1977 onwards."

Maybe It's a Wonderful LOST isn't completely dead after all lol!; January 31, 2010 at 1:52 PM
MikeNY said...: Interesting about wanting to destroy the island. It fits with the prison scenario. But, Jacob seemed well-aware of the incident. It would seem he would be screwed twice if the island were destroyed in one reality and he were killed in the other. Perhaps he was powerless to prevent either from occurring?

Maybe the mayhem from a freed monster will be the downfall of the new timeline.

I do think the detonation caused the sinking. Hence, despite the preferred scenario of the detonation being intrinsic to the button-pushing, I think it probably never detonated in the S1-5 reality. Rather, the leak from the drilling was sufficient.; January 31, 2010 at 2:51 PM
MikeNY said...: Oh, check out what Damon says here in the upper-right paragraph bearing on the MiB.

Whatever set the dynamic in motion appears to have occurred thousands of years ago. (MiB's death or the Jacob/Esau tale perhaps?); January 31, 2010 at 2:55 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i thought TPTB said Juliet was already dead at the end of S5

also, nobody really saw the statue from the plane

i didn't see any indications that the timelines split at 1977, guess i missed something

whoever called hurley talking to dead jacob, RIGHT ON!; January 31, 2010 at 8:46 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: "I'm sorry you had to see me like that."

Maybe fLocke/MiB/Smokie was also talking about the shaky, pirated video copy of the episode we all watched...

So two juxtaposed realities - a Schrodinger's cat supercausal situation where the bomb both exploded and didn't explode? Not saying which may be which, but in one reality the events became known as the Incident that necessitated the button protocol, while in the other the Island sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

There are those spoilers about Sawyer, Widmore and a new submarine in the Alt. Can the FDW be turned underwater?

If no Island remains for DHARMA's Valenzetti research, is the Alt a dead end? Or can it be saved if the Losties gather together to make a voyage to the bottom of the sea in time?

Does "destiny" still dictate that certain people come to the Island no matter what? Course correction? "Hand of fate" Jacob still in action? Does Jacob's visit with Sawyer in 1976 remain in the Alt seeing as the split occurs afterwards?

As always, many more questions arise with every answer we get.; February 1, 2010 at 8:07 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i suppose cerberus could have reconstituted Juliet for sawyer to get his kiss and make him even more pissed off at jack, but i doubt it

guess the premier did not wow me ask much as i expected but i did love flocke's (or whatever y'all would like to call him) line netprophet (LOL due to crappy video we watched)

even though he "is" smokey he is using locke's shell therefore he's still flocke to me; February 1, 2010 at 8:29 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i thought the season premiere was supposed to be 2 hours, did we only see the 1st hour?; February 1, 2010 at 8:39 AM
Greg Tramel said...: since there is a lot of stuff (like jacob visiting sawyer netprophet mentioned)that needed to be done before 1977 to create the reality we saw in S1-5 is one reason i question the split happening at 1977

i suppose there could be a 3rd timeline so all of these are happening at the same "time"

(1) S1-5

(2) different 815 Flight in 2004 (hey i may have missed it due to the dark video but did we see Ben in 815?. i thought he was supposed to be on the flight)

(3)Des in Hospital 2008; February 1, 2010 at 8:47 AM
Bigmouth said...: Mike: I think I prefer the bomb detonating in S1-5 reality, as opposed to the "alt" reality, because it avoids grandfather paradox. If the bomb explodes in the "alt" reality, it creates a logical contradiction because the bomb can't be a factor if they never crash on the Island and travel back in time. I think it makes more sense if the "alt" reality is what would have happened if the jughead was never a factor.

Greg: The statue being destroyed is the really big clue. We know that event occurred after the Black Rock landed, which is the other possible point of tangence between the timelines. Logically, therefore, the split probably occurs in 1977. I really think there are only two timelines: one light, one dark. Same with Fringe. Anything else just gets way too complicated for network television.

NetProphet: My favorite part was the motorcycles revving and sirens blaring LOL! It was like they had a team of bikes and ambulances ready every time anyone said anything of significance. I think you're right that the underwater Island connects well with spoilers re Charles and Sawyer on the submarine. Presumably their scenes will flesh out what happened during and after the Incident. Good question about whether Jacob touches Sawyer in the "alt" reality. I say no because those touches are Jacob's countermoves to MIB's loophole. No loophole, therefore, means no touches. But I could also see Sawyer and perhaps Kate being keys to the "alt" reality because their touches happened earlier than the Incident in linear time.; February 1, 2010 at 9:41 AM
Bigmouth said...: Did you guys see that promo with Jack smashing the mirrors? I really think he'll get a glimpse of the "alt" reality -- and be disturbed by what he sees.; February 1, 2010 at 10:05 AM
Greg Tramel said...: oh, guess i mised sometnig because i thought it was just the foot under water

haven't watched the promo yet (is it for part 2 of the season premiere?), there are screen shots on DarkUFO, right?; February 1, 2010 at 10:26 AM
Greg Tramel said...: guess i missed a lot, i was a bit frustated about the quality of the sound so i'm may have zoned out some (i was also watching TV at the same time)

i didn't catch that all of DI died after Jughead, how do we know that?; February 1, 2010 at 11:30 AM
MikeNY said...: I agree with your logic, Big, but I think they'd say, "Look, the island is underwater. That was to show the bomb worked and they avoided the crash in that reality."

Greg — It's pretty murky, but you can see Dharmaville as well.; February 1, 2010 at 12:46 PM
Bigmouth said...: Mike: But what about Richard's comment that he saw them all die? Check out this Blu-Ray extra, which suggests that Richard sees the bomb explode from a distance. This could all take place in the "alt" reality, I suppose, but the dry-erase board is from the S5 finale.; February 1, 2010 at 12:56 PM
Bigmouth said...: Greg: I'm confused by your confusion? The underwater foot is what we we're talking about. And I'm not sure what you mean about DHARMA dying after Jughead. In the "alt" reality, they either flee the Island or are killed when it sinks, and in the S1-5 reality, they're purged in 1992.; February 1, 2010 at 1:01 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Greg T:

I'm not sure any of us could tell what was underwater other than the foot. Some nice his-res screencaps once the episode airs might prove interesting. I'm just guessing that the FDW chamber might be down there, along with the Black Rock and a few other cool artifacts.

What if the Temple were a safe haven for the Others even underwater?

Otherwise, most people are surmising that some very bad things happened to the Island in the aftermath of Jughead. I think it is likely that baby Ethan made it off beforehand with the first group of evacuees on the Galaga. Probably Charlotte as well. We know Widmore shows up in the Alt and I think Ben was still with the Others (just healed at the Temple a day or two before), so it also seems probable the Others had some means of emergency escape.

Bigmouth:

I think you've nailed it as far as the Season 1-5 reality being "prime" with the post-Jughead branch being an alternate only made possible by the actions taken in the prime. Oddly enough, this leads to the conclusion that WHH is true for the prime. If that is the case, then 1974-1977 always had visitors from the future - the LaFleur group, etc. So, isn't it also logical that Jacob's visit to Sawyer in '76 (even if he is visiting form the future to set up his countermove to MiB) is part of history in the prime and Alt?

BTW - In watching the bootleg broadcast I was fearful at one point when I heard the BEEP-BEEP-BEEP of a truck backing up warning. I thought the camera may have been hidden in a garbage dumpster that was about to be emptied!; February 1, 2010 at 1:05 PM
Greg Tramel said...: oh, so y'all are saying the island sinks in 1977?; February 1, 2010 at 1:05 PM
Greg Tramel said...: and has it been confimed that Juliet told Sawyer she was pregnant right boefore she died (or died again)?; February 1, 2010 at 1:07 PM
Greg Tramel said...: the S6 flight 815 still happens in 2004, right?

and did anybody see Ben on the plane?; February 1, 2010 at 1:09 PM
MikeNY said...: Big — I agree it's not an open and shut case. But it does seem sensical that the detonation sunk the island. The logic in S5 was: Nuke the island -> no crash.

Perhaps Richard saw the teleporting flash, after which they were gone.

Frankly, either way it's mess. :-(; February 1, 2010 at 1:33 PM
Greg Tramel said...: but if there wasn't the Black Rock underwater wouldn't the island have sumerged pre black rock?

sorry if i'm being slow to catch y'alls drift; February 1, 2010 at 1:38 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Just wanted to touch on the mirror thing Big brought up. A long while back I had a discussion in another forum about the magic box thing being a bit like the Mirror of Erised (desire backwards for those not familiar) from Harry Potter. Now I'm thinking about Jack's reaction if he sees that the alternate reality he hoped to create does exist, but he and the rest of the Jughead group can't take part in it despite their sacrifices. If so, can't say I blame him for smashing. I wonder if Hurley sees a glimpse of himself all cozy with Libby.

Greg T:

Yeah, I think the idea is that while many differences exist, certain parallel events still take place. It seems as if Jack still has to go pick up Chrsitian's body from Australia in the Alt 2004. Kate is still a fugitive, although for a slightly different reason as seen in the ComicCon video.

Makes me wonder about course correction in light of the Alt. Does the universe still strive to bring about a certain outcome even with the Island submerged? Do Jacob and MiB still exist in the Alt? Isn't water a barrier that Smokie couldn't cross - making the submerged Island the ultimate prison for him. But can the World (or Jacob) survive without the Island?

Footnote: Has anyone seen that recent magazine insert with pictures of the cast and identifications such as "Jack Shephard: Man of Science"? Notably, Jacob is "The Hand of Fate". Has that ever officially been used for him before?; February 1, 2010 at 1:43 PM
Greg Tramel said...: guess i missed in S1-5 that the ONLY way for the statue to be knocked down was via the Black Rock coming ashore; February 1, 2010 at 1:47 PM
Greg Tramel said...: Yes, netprophet I was a bit perplexed about the insert saying “Jacob is The Hand of Fate” (never seen that mentioned before) since I always thought of Jacob as the free will guy

I understand about the 815 flights having both similar and dissimilar actions, the part I’m not getting is the island definitively submerged in 1977; February 1, 2010 at 1:54 PM
lostmio said...: MikeNY said "Perhaps Richard saw the teleporting flash, after which they were gone."

Yes, that makes sense. JH did detonate, there was a bomb-like flash, which Richard saw. To him, it then looked like the 77s were gone.
The 77s experienced it as a time jump, but not as a 'detonation'.; February 1, 2010 at 9:02 PM
lostmio said...: Greg, don't fret about the Black Rock, that was my bad.
There's no reason to tie the BR to the submerged island, I just had a quick brain pop that that would explain the BR, but realized it didn't compute. Sorry for the confusion.; February 1, 2010 at 9:06 PM
lostmio said...: NetProphet said "most people are surmising that some very bad things happened to the Island in the aftermath of Jughead."

That seems to be the most popular spec but I don't buy it. We know the island is not submerged nor is Dharmaville flood-damaged, ca 2008.

Until we see something that disproves it, I still say the ALT safe-landing 815 flew over the submerged island in the *original* timeline.
Then when the 77s detonated JH, it wiped out that timeline and the submerged island scenario.; February 1, 2010 at 9:11 PM
lostmio said...: The underwater scene supports the 815 safe landing ALT as the original timeline but it's not my basis for that theory.

Here's my basis:
There’s two ways this can go.
Jacob said “It only ends once”.
Either the safe-landed 815 is the last timeline, or the crashed 815 is the last timeline.

Jacob's last words were “They’re coming”. Almost certainly, he’s referring to the 77 Losties and/or Ilana’s group. The 815 crash - and not the 815 safe landing - resulted in the 77 Losties and Ilana’s group landing on the island. And Flocke killing Jacob.

So when we see 815 fly over the island and the subsequent events, we will see what happened before JH detonated. That timeline will be expository, ie it inform us re the mythology and long-story arc. But events in that timeline won’t matter to the extent that the events we’ve seen in s1-s5.; February 1, 2010 at 10:37 PM
Greg Tramel said...: Couple of quotes from TPTB in Doc Jensen’s cover story in EW

EW: Jacob/MIB (in another interview they both said call him MIB) “not only a conflict between the two of them as representatives of good and evil but also a conflict about what is the fundamental nature of man, is man good or is man evil”

TV guide interview: “just because one guy wears white and the other guy wears black, don’t make immediate judgments over who’s good and who’s evil, Jacob has kind of put our guys through the wringer”

EW: “there was a shift in Wilmore last year from being a nefarious force to presenting himself as someone who was quite helpful to John Locke, clearly something happened to him between those two points....is he good or evil”; February 2, 2010 at 6:23 AM
Greg Tramel said...: EW: "this notion of predeterminism is something we’re very actively exploring this season”

EW: “one of the characters on the show this season is going to ask what is the island”; February 2, 2010 at 6:34 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Lostmio:

There is some evidence that the Alt with the Island underwater is a branch off of and dependent upon the Jughead gambit right in the episode. Jack has an unexplained hematoma on his neck that clearly confuses him. He has that deja vu feeling as the plane hits turbulence, gripping as if he expects something more. And again when he meets Desmond on the plane. Not one iota of such awareness was seen in the "original" crash timeline.

Also, as Bigmouth notes, such a split of reality logically only occurs as a result of Jughead and implies that 815 had to crash "first". Unsunk Island with Swan leads to crash, crash leads Losties to time travel, leads to Jughead gambit to prevent crash, leads to new reality with Island sunk, but with old reality still there too. If the Island is underwater in what you believe is the prime version of reality, how do we ever get to a reality where 815 crashes?

My own view of the Alt is that it is a doomed, dead end branch. No Island, no playing with Valenzetti research, mankind's days are numbered. Notably, TPTB have also said we'll ultimately see the Alt somehow merge with the timeline where Jacob has been killed on the Island. Perhaps something like this:

Alt gang gets on sub, finds underwater FDW. Someone turns FDW which causes cross reality time flash that is THE time flash that sends the 1977 gang back to their own 2007/8 future. This flash, merging with the combined energies of the Swan and Jughead is what caused the split to begin with. The Alt versions of our beloved characters on board the sub are all wiped out (heroic sacrifice) as the Island manifests itself in what is now a hybrid reality. The Island (and every one last seen on it) now exists in a world that thinks 815 never crashed.

I know I'm overlong already, but permit me a brief pet peeve diatribe:

IMHO - I think a lot of people have interpreted "it only ends once" as evidence of a system of recursive loops where Jacob and MiB play out the same game over and over with the same pieces/pawns in multiple iterations. Quite frankly, I think its as simple as the World only ends once - Valenzetti Day. MiB thinks mankind is so flawed that there is no point to prolonging the inevitable doomsday that awaits it. Jacob, however, sees merit in pushing humanity as far as it can go, even though conflict may be the only means to achieve this. So while there are many individual episodes of conflict (which MiB perceives as always ending the same), Jacob knows there is only one true end to it all. Maybe Jacob even hopes that humanity can transcend their limits (time and space?) if they can only reach Bigmouth's OMEGA POINT. Maybe as reflected by DHARMA's efforts to alter the Valenzetti equation and delay doomsday, as well as their other efforts to push humanity in new directions, Jacob's intentions are known as well.

We've seen many episodes over five seasons all come to AN end. But like everything else, the series will only truly end once -THE END of the finale. I, for one, certainly hope TPTB don't leave us with an ambiguous sense that maybe more iterations of their univerese will keep going on without us.; February 2, 2010 at 6:54 AM
Greg Tramel said...: netprophet, i 2nd your take on it only ends once, you and Big nailed it

so with S6 815, Christian’s coffin is not on the plane, hmm, i can't figure out where their going with that; February 2, 2010 at 7:11 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Greg T:

Thanks!

As far as Christian’s coffin disappearing from Alt 815, what if it is related to the two different appearing versions of Christian we've seen on the Island? Maybe another countermove - MiB has his version of Christian, so Jacob gets one too?

BTW - As far as we know, it doesn't appear that MiB/Smokie has ever adopted the likeness of a living person. The assumed appearances have all been dead -Christian, Yemi, Alex, and fLocke. Does he need a dead body as a template? Is this related to the Others' funerary rites?; February 2, 2010 at 7:41 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i not only think Smokey needs a dead body but it also has to be an unburied body, maybe; February 2, 2010 at 7:43 AM
Greg Tramel said...: quotes from the actors:

“we’re playing with dimensions and time and space – co-existing in two different dimensions at once”

“flash –sideways”

“characters are going to get an opportunity to start from scratch and try again and see how dynamics can play out under different circumstances”; February 2, 2010 at 7:54 AM
Greg Tramel said...: Cuse: “People are going to take sides [between Jacob and the Man in Black], but that doesn’t mean they’re not going to switch sides later on. It’s a little bit like baseball pre-season. You’re on a team, but there’s a lot of trading going on.”; February 2, 2010 at 9:28 AM
Bigmouth said...: NetProphet: Honestly, I was agnostic on which timeline was primary and which was alternate, but you've made a VERY convincing case for S1-5 being primary. I especially like the points about Jack's fleeting deja vu and hematoma. That said, I still think of the "alt" reality as representing what their lives would look like if Fate had been allowed to run its course without interference from the Island.

Greg: I think the whole good guy/bad guy stuff is just to keep us guessing as MIB tries to recruit characters like Sawyer. It looks like Sawyer will initially join MIB because of anger over Juliet's pregnancy. I'm confident, however, that he'll realize his error and switch sides before it's too late.

Mike and Lostmio: The Blu-Ray extra describing "SCENE 11" of the Incident is pretty unequivocal that the bomb detonated in the S1-5 reality :

JULIET * BOMB * BOOM
SEE JACK'S GROUP ABSORBED BY WHITE LIGHT
ALPERT POV * SEES EXPLOSION FROM A DISTANCE

You guys think it was just a red herring? If so, is the bomb now at the site of the Swan crater in 2007?; February 2, 2010 at 9:47 AM
Bigmouth said...: Interesting comment from Michael Emerson about how he, too, thinks Jacob's death was assisted suicide:

Given how Jacob taunted Ben with that rude and dismissive “What about you?” line just moments before getting knifed, “He rather begs for his own death,” posits Michael Emerson. Hmm, could it have been the Man in White’s plan to die and in doing so present an even greater roadblock to “UnLocke”? “Jacob’s agenda is more complicated than we can know,” Emerson says. “It’s certainly not as simple as we thought.”; February 2, 2010 at 9:50 AM
lostmio said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; February 2, 2010 at 10:51 AM
Bigmouth said...: lostmio: I think we're confused because you said the opposite a few posts ago:

Until we see something that disproves it, I still say the ALT safe-landing 815 flew over the submerged island in the *original* timeline.; February 2, 2010 at 11:08 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Bigmouth:

Have you read God Emperor of Dune? There is something reminiscent in the manner of Jacob's demise, and maybe even a parallel to the loophole as well as the possible path to your Omega Point.

As much as God Emperor Leto strived to stay alive for thousands of years, he accepted his death with welcome relief. In knowing that humanity had developed along his "Golden Path" and thus was no longer constrained within the limits of his otherwise omniscient vision, Leto's death was also his ultimate triumph.

As my screen name might suggest, I am somewhat fascinated by prescience as well as the deterministic implications that follow. If someone knows their future, what of free will? Lost has put this question in the forefront with time travel, WHH and the possible omniscience of Jacob and/or MiB.

Let's say Jacob is a 4D being not constrained by time and space. Like God Emperor Leto, he may have good intentions for saving humanity, but his abiliy to foresee the future may also be a trap. Can mankind only progress so far before, as MiB believes, they bring themselves to ruin in a Valenzetti Day masacre that even Jacob has forseen? Like Leto, Jacob NEEDS someone outside his vision to get beyond the tipping point.

So MiB has found a Loophole, possibly in the form of someone even all seeing Jacob can't follow. Mechanically, it may be as simple as Ben and Locke having both turned the FDW and being literally displaced in time and space as a result. It also seems likely that whatever "rules" there are between Jacob and his foe prevent direct assault against one another, so Ben must be the one to strike. When Jacob realises this, he provokes Ben into his own death.

By doing so maybe Jacob sacrificed himself in the hope that his own vision of seeing mankind's ultimate failure has been thwarted. Maybe the final test is to see if mankind can beat MiB without his help. To do so may also require mankind to produce a being or beings on par with MiB. The Omega Point union of JiYeon and Aaron?; February 2, 2010 at 11:38 AM
Bigmouth said...: NetProphet: I haven't read God Emperor of Dune -- I petered out midway through Children of Dune. But based on your description and wiki's, I can certainly see some LOST parallels. I gather Ben is like Hwi? I can also see some similarities to the Foundation Series, where Hari Seldon's plan is upset by an unforeseen variable -- the Mule -- necessitating countermeasures.

Lostmio: To clarify, I certainly don't mean to suggest you've never argued that S1-5 was the original timeline, and that the "alt" reality is tangent. I recall discussing this issue quite recently, and our positions were actually reversed, with me arguing against that possibility based on Black Rock spoilers that now appear false. I just figured you changed your mind after the premier, which is why I directed my comments at you and MikeNY. Apologies if I misunderstood.; February 2, 2010 at 3:08 PM
tele_turns said...: Jacob is dead and Hurley's speaking to him? Hurley the prophet? Hurley, the Richard replacement? Big things ahead for Hurley.; February 2, 2010 at 3:27 PM
Greg Tramel said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; February 2, 2010 at 5:42 PM
MikeNY said...: Big — It's definitely gray to me. But I find the sinking as a consequence of the detonation to be a pretty compelling scenario.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to what looks like MiB's cave. I wonder if it's opposite to the foot.

Enjoy the premiere, all.; February 2, 2010 at 5:52 PM
lostmio said...: Bigmouth, here and elsewhere I've steadfastly maintained that JH would/did result in the time being reset to the timeline we saw in S1-S5.
This was my position as early as when "The Incident" aired and before we ever saw or heard the LA X and other ALT spoilers.

That said, if someone locked me in a closet, alone, I'd argue with myself. I'm sure I've occasionally advocated the flip side and you saw that.
So no apology due.. for this or anything. It's all good spec and all good discussion.; February 6, 2010 at 8:39 PM

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Friday, December 18, 2009

More Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

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