Wednesday, January 20, 2010

Ben Remembers Everything...

I'm an active viewer, which means I talk back to the television when especially pleased or annoyed.  I recall howling in protest during Whatever Happened, Happened, when Richard said that little Ben would "forget this ever happened" after being taken to the Temple.  I groaned again when Ben's memory loss was seemingly confirmed in Dead Is Dead.  At the time, I chided Darlton for the opportunity squandered.  Recently, however, I realized that my charges of a copout may have been premature.  What if one twist of Season 6 is that big Ben actually remembers everything that happened to him as a kid?

Richard's line aside, it does seem like the show has been building naturally to this revelation.  There are a number of signs that Ben's shooting was the defining event of his life.  After Namaste, when Juliet performed surgery on Ben as a child, I suggested the painting of the blond woman that hung in Ben's house as an adult was actually of her.  There's some dispute on this point, but the woman in the painting could be holding a (very) large field mouse, which was the subject of Juliet's fertility research. And as Capcom has noted, the two women share the same mysterious Mona Lisa smile.

Then there's Kate's creepy breakfast with big Ben in A Tale of Two Cities.  Recall that he clothes her in a sundress and treats her to a pleasant meal on the beach.  When Kate demands to know why, Ben replies: "I did all those things so that you'd have something nice to hold onto.  Because, Kate, the next two weeks are going to be very unpleasant."  Back in Season 2, I remember thinking that Ben must be fixated on Kate because of her resemblance to Annie.  But that scene makes even more sense if Ben remembers how Kate saved his life -- and risked her own -- by taking him to the Others.

Similarly, Ben's exchange with Sayid in He's Our You makes chilling sense if Ben remembers being shot.  When he accuses Sayid of wanting to kill, Sayid angrily asks why Ben would think such a thing.  The latter replies: "Because, Sayid... to put it simply, you're capable of things that most other men aren't.  Every choice you've made in your life, whether it was to murder or to torture, it hasn't really been a choice at all, has it?  It's in your nature.  It's what you are. You're a killer, Sayid."  Ben can be so sure because he knows from personal experience that Sayid will shoot a child in cold blood.

So why did Ben recruit Sayid as an assassin if he knew it would harden the Iraqi's heart against him?  And why generally go through the charade of having little Ben forget the shooting if he actually remembers?  The answer to both questions has to do with the loophole.  Ben was never supposed to become leader of the Others.  The Man in Black starts him on this track by orchestrating a chance meeting with Richard in the jungle.  Another step is the shooting, which brings Ben to the Temple.  Years later, Ben will use Penny to justify Charles Widmore's exile, completing his ascension.

Somewhere along the line, Ben recovers his memory, perhaps with a little dream inspiration by the Man in Black.  He begins learning as much as he can about the '77ers from sources like Oldham's report and Faraday's journal.  He recruits Juliet, whom he remembers saving his life.  And when Oceanic 815 crashes, Ben is ready with a plan to infiltrate the survivors.  He also prepares for his departure and eventual return, stashing money and passports in the desert and building the runway for Ajira 316.  Then Ben turns the Wheel off its axis, causing the time flashes that open the loophole.

Here's where things get really dark.  Even if he doesn't fully comprehend why, Ben realizes that a big reason he became leader was his visit to the Temple as a child.  Knowing this event is pivotal, he deliberately stokes Sayid's murderous rage during the time they're off the Island so Sayid won't hesitate -- or even blink -- when shooting him as a child.  That's how desperately Ben wants to maintain power, his desire enhanced no doubt by the Man in Black's mental nudges.  Way back in One of Them, Sayid screams that Ben "would remember!"  In fact, he does.  Ben remembers everything.

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


metalman777 said...

another great theory that makes absolute sense!

Bring on Season 6!

Ricky said...

You know Big I kinda wonder if being taken to the temple to be healed was similar to "The Matrix" in that it's like visiting the Oracle, only you can know what was told to you and it becomes your destiny, if so it's possible that whoever healed him in the temple be it Jacob or MIB they told him his role in the hole scope of things, and Ben just so happens to be a great actor so he has done exactly what was asked of him.

Suzanne said...

Ohh! I love this! Great post.

Thunderstorm said...

Could not agree more about the squandered opportunity. It was totally unnecessary to make him not remember those events.

And yeah, Ben getting those messages from MIB is one of my lines of thought lately as well (re: Smoke Cabin theory) "I used to have dreams".

If the Island never choses Ben and he's been propped up by a 'con', then why would Ben ever get messages from the Island? Unless they were from MiB under the guise of the "Island" telling Ben what to do. I am on board with that.

It's also a card under Ben's sleeve with regard to Richard. Richard would think Ben doesn't know/remember, so possibly Ben could use that to his advantage in manipulating Richard or just keeping him under this thumb a little bit.

Also, and this might be reaching but it wouldn't be the first time:
It brings to mind the line at the end of TSOTTC, Season 4. From Widmore to Ben. "I know what you are, boy". Besides whatever else I've considered, I've always basically thought it meant that Charles knew Ben was a fraud, as far as being special or chosen for leadership. He knew Ben didn't deserve to be the leader.

So if Charles knew that Ben knew about his own Temple visit, this gives that line some different context. "I know that YOU know that you are a fraud." But perhaps Charles couldn't expose him, because he's in on the con himself?

Maybe neither Charles or Ben were ever supposed to be leaders of any kind but they had been propped up by similar shenanigans from MiB.

And this whole time Charles and Ben were both being made to work against Jacob. And of course, if we think of the Purge, and if we believe Jacob may have brought Dharma, that makes sense. Charles and Ben both wanted Dharma gone, even though it may have been Jacob who brought them in the first place. All this speculation brings to mind the idea of Jacob as almost an 'absent God' type figure.

He choses some things, puts them in place and lets the humans just work it out on their own.

Ben then, succumbs to a deal with the 'devil' (so to speak) out of his lust for having a special place on the Island. Note: I am not implying MiB is even evil, just making the parallel in terms of conflict.

dunce said...

I dig it.

considering that we know at some point shortly after being shot and taken to the temple, Ben returned to dharma - and one would assume, given that everybody there knows he was shot, then taken to the hostiles, it would have come up, and he would know the facts. Even if what happened in the temple caused him to forget, he would have known about it after the fact.

something else that stuck out was the juliet scenario. thinking back to before "the other woman" when Ben proclaims to Juliet that "you're mine." - his romantic notions for her where there from the beginning, as soon as she arrived, without seemingly having met before. why?

classic Florence Nightingale effect. he remembers.

Greg Tramel said...

msybe Ben watched the DI security camera videos

neoloki said...


haven't read the post yet, but wanted to ask if you're going to be covering Caprica over on I Hate My DVR?

pword381 said...

fantastic theory. i really dig your blog.

CAN'T WAIT for Feb 2!!

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

i watched and enjoyed the Caprica pilot

tesla towers are in the news again

GinaMarie said...

I dont think Ben remembers anything. I think it was a situation like John had (or the MIB had) where he watched himself in the past. Ben already knew the process of moving the island before John was told to do it so maybe he has been through flash backs & flash forwards before. He has been on the island since he was little and I am sure this isnt the first time they moved the island. He might have encountered himself getting shot by Sayid or being operated on by Juliette. Even more plausible, he may have just wanted to know how he could maintain his power on the island so he went back in time to find out what happened so he could make sure that everyone was in place to secure his road to leadership. He wasnt ready for John (MIB), though, and he is definitely foiling his plan.

ozward said...

He doesn't remember because shortly after his 'temple resurrection', the incident occurs. The bomb kills everyone on the island except the 815'ers... AND Ben. The temple monster did something to Ben to allow him to avoid the devestation of the H-bomb (unlike Juliet who will simply perish).

Their memories reset and thus no one remembers anyone.

Thunderstorm said...

Richard tells them (Kate and Sawyer) he won't remember BEFORE the Incident. We already have an explanation for why Ben supposedly didn't remember.

This is a theory on whether Ben was allowed to remember anyhow.

Bigmouth said...

metalman: Amen, brotha!

Ricky: That's an interesting suggestion -- it could explain what Richard meant by little Ben losing his "innocence." But why did Richard also say Ben would lose his memory if the opposite was true? I think this theory makes the most sense if Ben remembering is somehow an exception to the rules -- one created by MIB to open his loophole. I have a feeling that Smokey stored those memories in the Temple, then returned them to Ben in a subsequent encounter.

Suzanne: Glad you liked it!

Thunder: Good call with Richard not realizing that Ben remembers -- I could totally see the latter using this advantage to manipulate the former. In fact, that may be exactly what happened when Ben sent Richard to recruit Juliet. I also think you may be right that Widmore, too, realizes Ben was never supposed to lead the Others.

dunce: Very true -- Ben probably learned much of what happened after returning to Dharmaville. Love the Florence Nightingale Effect explanation!

Greg: Good call re the security camera footage.

Neo: Possibly. I haven't seen Caprica yet -- it's on my DVR -- but I'm not optimistic. Looks awfully soapy from the previews.

pword: I can't wait, either!

GinaMarie: Interesting speculation about Ben encountering himself through time travel. Was that the purpose of the deleted scene in S4 where Ben observes himself landing in the desert?

ozward: I think Miles is right the Incident was always part of the timeline we've seen. Any other timelines (e.g., those in the most recent Comic-Con videos) are NOT caused by detonation of the Jughead's core.

neoloki said...


Those were my first thoughts, but was extremely surprised by the pilot. It was excellent. I am sure you would like it.

Bigmouth said...

Neo: You guess correctly. I loved it!

neoloki said...

I thought you might. Like I said, I was quite surprised. I was expecting a "scy-fy" Dallas. The premise is very adult, dark and compelling, however. Hope they can keep it up. Might give us some interesting background information on BSG.
I look forward to reading your articles on Caprica.

by the way, anybody watch Spartacus last night? I am not expecting it to be the quality of Rome, but one can hope.

Wayne said...

Big, I still think its up in the air as to whether Ben remembers or not, its being played close to the vest. So either way wouldn't necessarily be a cheat.

Even on first viewing, I wanted to call foul (more after Ben's bullet hole moved), but I've always seen it more as Richard stating that Ben will remember nothing/losing his innocence as meaning Ben will no longer be anything but "one of them." You can't watch that scene and not see how they are trying hard not to say something while seeming as if it was a done deal.

Another thing about 1977. I like that Ben would recall Juliet and Kate and even Sawyer (Jacob or Ethan would have eventually found the name Ford), but...1977 Ben never interacted with 1977 Jack. This adds to scenes where Pickett says Jack wasn't even on Jacob's list to Ben sounding so wistful when he mentions a spinal surgeon falling out of the sky. Also, of course, no one in 1977 would know that Jack could operate. Just saying that of the 'trinity,' Jack is out of the loop when it comes to Temple time.

I watched Dead is Dead last night, saving the S5 extras until right before rewatching The Incident. It is telling that Ben blurts out being brought to the Temple, etc., and Locke doesn't even bother to listen. If MIB was involved in the 1977 situation, why would he need to hear about it again?

One last thing, a bit of symbolism. Throughout S1-4, Locke had his backpack slung over one shoulder. Wearing the suit in S5, I started thinking, hmnn, well, sure, a dead guy wouldn't be buried with his old tan backpack, but the symbolism, too, is that Locke was no longer weighted down.

In almost every scene, its just him in the open collared shirt, until the trek to the Temple. He has the two torches AND the black backpack. Could it be meant that "Locke" was again weighted down until after Ben was judged? Think on that. What if Smokey and MIB are independent of each other (to a point), and MIB/Locke could only hope that Smokey would have Alex say exactly the right thing?

Or the backpack might have had a simpler purpose, it could have been filled with the vines that Locke had for Ben. When Locke was in the jungle, while Sun and Ben talked on the porch, Locke could easily have loosened up the section of the floor that broke beneath Ben. And if the vines were already in the backpack, then MIB/Locke goes to look for something he already had, then becomes Smokey, then becomes the other again.

Living with Balls said...

I think you're right. I think Ben remembered that Sayid shot him

Bigmouth said...

Another whackadoo thought along the lines of my proposal that Smokey copied Ben's memory before erasing it, then returned those memories to him at a later date: were MIB's memories trapped in the Cabin?

Wayne: That's a really interesting question re MIB having to depend on Smokey to send the right message to Ben under the Temple. It brings to mind Ricky's observation elsewhere that Christian was talking to Frank and Sun on the Island while fLocke was present on Hydra. It does seem, though, that Smokey and MIB have been on the same page throughout the show. Can we think of any situations where Smokey did something that clearly contravened MIB's agenda?

LivingwithBalls: Yep. I mean, the comments are ironic either way, but they have so much more resonance if Ben not only knows Sayid will shoot him, but actually remembers the event.

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Bigmouth said...

Greg: I think you meant to post that on the spoiler thread? I moved it over there -- let me know if I was wrong.

Greg Tramel said...

i think there seems to be enough evidence for Ben time traveling and sometimes i wonder if the Ben we saw Richard taking into the Temple is the same physical body of Ben we saw in 2007 on Island since there may be evidence of more than 1 Ben running around

Big, unique interesting idea that Ben's memories (up until Richard brought him into the Temple) were stored in the Temple, maybe when somebody turns the the FDW all their stored memories are reinstalled, that might make sense with all the Sayid stuff on Earth

i'm not sure about the idea of MIB's memories being stored in the cabin, something doesn't quite sit right but i'll have to ponder it

Bigmouth said...

Greg: I was actually thinking that Smokey returns the memories to Ben in some later encounter with like the one it had with Locke in Walkabout. On that note, if you don't like the idea of MIB's memories trapped in the Cabin, what about Smokey giving MIB's memories to Locke during their initial encounter? Too whackadoo?

Also, just musing a bit more about the significance of Ben having a copy of Faraday's journal. Is that how he knows about the Daniel and Charlotte heading to the Tempest?

Ricky said...

I've had this though for a while now, but never tried to put it forth: What if, when Little Ben ran into "Pirate" Richard in TMBTC, that was really Smokey and not Richard, it may explain two things here, Smokey took the form of a dead Richard body, (possibly meaning that Richard was once dead and is now a resurrected eternal being thanks to Jacob) but his body was copied by Smokey before his resurrection, so that is why he looks so "Piratey". Anyway what I'm getting at is: If I'm right and that wasn't the real Richard but just a Smokey copy of Richard then might he have done a mind scan of Ben when he caught him running through the Jungle, you know at the moment we saw when he told Ben to be patient.

Then later of course at a time we haven't seen Smokey re-implants those memories into Ben after he is healed, or even while he was being judged as we saw the flashes happening.


Bigmouth said...

Ricky: The idea of "pirate" Richard being Smokey is really interesting! It would explain his anomalous appearance in that scene. But I see a couple of problems with that take.

First, Richard seems to recognize Ben when Kate brings him. Taking Ben to the Temple makes more sense if Richard remembers their encounter and interprets it as a sign that Ben is special.

Second, recording Ben's memory during this first encounter in 1973 is too early for the chronology to work. At that point, the '77ers hadn't arrived, so Ben had yet to be shot. So copying his memory then wouldn't be much use.

Ricky said...

True. I lost my bearings there!

Cameron said...

Off topic. Watching Season 2, and Sawyer quips a nickname at Locke calling him Brutus, when Jack goes to get the guns from him. I thought it was cool that it foreshadows Locke being part of the conspiracy murder of Jacob.

Thunderstorm said...

I've been on that Shaggy Pirate Richard kick all hiatus. We even had a theory about it over on the Fuselage posted last night.

Basically what needs to happen is that Horace needs to be scanned.

Because Smokey would have lured little Ben out to the jungle, initially using his mother.

And Smokey would get the idea to use Ben and his mother's image from the same place. From Horace's skull.

Big, didn't you or Wayne or someone theorize an entirely different reason that Horace had a run-in with Smokey? Maybe it all works, I don't know.

The strongest piece of evidence is that the whispers are heard and it's the only time they've ever been associated with Richard.

So it's not even the hair and clothes by itself. It's that he seemingly manifested there after the whispers were heard. And yeah, maybe that's his true nature, he's a manifestation of something himself, doesn't have to be aligned with Smokey but it works.

Cameron said...

Did Jacob visit the psychic that Clare went to see? As we know by his own admission he is a fraud (when Eko went to see him as a priest). Then why did he pursue Clare so much to get the plane to LA when he has no psychic abilities? Could Jacob have been involved there as well? hmmm

Bigmouth said...

Cameron: My favorite Sawyer nickname is actually "Vesuvius" -- I'm still waiting for them to pay off the volcano angle. As for Claire's psychic, I tend to think his original vision was real (i.e., great danger surrounds this baby). But his subsequent pursuit of Claire was the result of Christian paying him to do so. In my view, it was always Claire's destiny to be on Oceanic 815. Christian and the psychic were simply tools of fate.

Thunder: I've definitely wondered if Horace was scanned by Smokey while building the Cabin. And I like the idea of Smokey using Horace's memory of Emily Linas to lure Ben away from the Barracks. But I'm not sold on the notion that the whispers preceding Richard's appearance mean that he is Smokey. Don't we also hear the whispers before Richard and the Others ambush our Losties in Live Together, Die Alone? We also hear them before Harper appears to Jack and Juliet in The Other Woman, though I know there's some dispute if she was actually Smokey.

Capcom said...

Wow, nice theory! The Ben Loop, I like it.

What then would mean Ben's expression, "I hope you're happy now Jacob"?

Great comments everyone!

neoloki said...

I posted this over on the Spoilers section but was meant for here:

Oh, I have brought up Jacob influencing Malkin a couple of times before on this board and considering the fact I believe Malkin is a fraud through and through, I think that is how things played out.

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: My problem with Malkin simply being fraud is that his behavior is inconsistent. Why tell Claire that she must not give her child away if his goal all along was to convince her to give Aaron up for adoption?

Thunderstorm said...

I can't remember which post it was talked about but last night on the enhanced episode the little tab at the bottom of the screen said that Ilana was going to see Jacob at the cabin...I know we discussed that recently. Some were saying she was going to see if MiB was there, I can't even remember my own opinion on it. It was the scene where the outrigger first pulled up to shore.
Moving on...

Yes, Big, it was the Others ambush in There's No Place like Home, but I know that's what you meant.

Right, I don't think it has to be Smokey - if Jacob is not involved with Smokey at all - it could be Jacob's "manifestation method". Whispers and the POOF!

Take the episode Dead is Dead:

Alex, clearly a smoke manifestation, appears with NO whispers.

The Christian that Sun and Frank talked to, who was preceded by whispers.

If the Whispers = Jacob's people, then there may very well be two Zombie CS's.

neoloki said...


His plan wasn't to get her to adopt at the end it was simply to get her on flight 815. The couple was in LA and he said a few times it had to be that flight.

Bigmouth said...

Thunder: Wait a minute...what if the whispers aren't literally Smokey, but rather its fingerprint? That is, events arranged by Smokey are accompanied by whispers.

Neoloki: But why does he tell her that Aaron must not be raised by another? That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

Greg Tramel said...

i was a bit confused that in the popup version of the The Incident they played on Tuesday night when they showed Flocke and gang marching towards the foot the popup said in present time so if that means 2008 wouldn’t 30 years earlier be 1978 instead of 1977? my math is not so good so I could be wrong

i suppose it doesn't matter in the end but i think it has been pretty well confirmed it was 2008 when Ellie and Charles were outside the hospital after Ben shot Desmond on Earth

that’s why I’m including Team Temple as a 3rd team because I have no idea what time they are in compared to Team Flocke/Sun in 2007 (2008?) and Team Jack in 1977

Capcom said...

Maybe Malkin said that Aaron should not be raised by an Other. But probably not, since if Jacob/island needs Aaron, he would be going directly to the Others, or Jacob's Others. I also believe in Malkin being totally fake until something or someone freaked him out with a visit and instructions on what to say to Claire.

I really doubt this, but maybe the whispers are from the images captured inside Smokey when he reads people, and when he's nearby lurking in the woods, you can hear them? But....most likely not. I'd rather that it was something more exciting like parallel timeline voices.

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

i'm going with the whispers are from people embalmed (not meaning literally but rather metaphorically) in the Temple

re smokey/pirate Richard, 1st I think maybe we should decide if we think Ben’s mom was Smokey

Greg Tramel said...

Sorry for reposting, but my typos REALLY sucked (par for the course for me)

i think in the end Malkin was just unsure of his abilities, he probably like many psychics go back and forth whether or not their visions mean anything and to what extent can they be trusted

to a man of God (Eko) it might just be easier to say I’m a fraud

KoreAmBear said...

Q. Are people going to check the blogs after 1/30? They are going to premier LOST on Sunset at the Beach in Waikiki -- just ep. 6 x 01. I don't think I am going because I can't imagine the traffic and crowd being conducive to a nice experience for me. They are going to do the red carpet thing and all that. Me, I think I will try to stay away from LOST info on the internet until after 2/2.

Thunderstorm said...

I'll take a stab.

What if Claire was 'Fated' more or less to be on that plane, just like when the pen didn't work. Jacob is then trying to take advantage of that Fate.

Perhaps the intervention from Jacob was sending the fraud, Malkin a 'vision' that actually showed him something (which surprised him to say the least). Hoping to spook him into convincing Claire to WANT to raise the baby.

In other words, Claire is getting on that plane and she's going to give birth to Aaron on that Island pretty much no matter what.

But what Jacob wanted was for Claire to WANT to do this - keep him - BEFORE the crash. He wanted it to be Claire's choice. Similar to Hurley and 316 - he was maybe also fated, but Jacob gave him a choice to WANT to be there.

So Malkin's plan for the couple in LA, was all his own doing. Creeped out by what he saw and coupled with his fraudulent ways, he felt the only way he could make amends was to help her. So he gave her the money and set up the adoption in LA. This was essentially the 'hand of fate' stepping in where it always was going to, to make sure Claire was on Flight 815.

So Malkin is a fraud and plays no active part in any 'Island' madness other than to relay a message from Jacob and ultimately, unknowingly fulfill fate's hand by getting Claire on Flight 815.

Thunderstorm said...


I am unsure what I'll do. Other than here, I generally avoid most of the comment sections elsewhere. That is, for the most part, but especially over the last few months.

It's not just because of spoilers either. The comment sections on DarkUFO and DocArzt's site (for two examples) are often full of such nonsense that I've stopped checking them months ago.

My guess is I'll tread lightly beginning Saturday.

KoreAmBear said...

@Thunderstorm I agree. There is so much LOST stuff out there that's counterproductive (pure speculation, misleading based on false premises, etc.) that I have to unravel the so called theories and get back on the right road. Bigs is sound in his analysis so he does stray too far down the whackadoo highway and when he is about to, he warns us. I'm just going to stay away from the blogs starting on 1/30 until I watch eps. 6 x 01 and 6 x 02. Wow the end (of the wait) is nigh.

Capcom said...

Koreamabear and everyone else, in addition to here you can go to to talk about the episodes as they air. They are good natured and intelligent posters like here, who have been together since TLE-2006. The admins make a post for each episode. They don't allow spoilers and even though a lot of "members" are going to Hawaii for the S6.1 party, they will not be posting anything about the premier until after it airs for us first.

Although we do chat during the ep beginning at the EST airing, the timezones that follow fall in after their ep has aired. Most of the time we ESTers stay up to talk with the PSTers too.

Also Koreambear, if you wanted to hook up with any of those guys you could post over there and arrange something maybe to get to the show. Most of the ones going hooked up in LA for the last poster reveal and they had a good time getting to know each other. If you contacted them, most if not all are on FB as well. You would be a welcome addition to the Lost gypsy clan I'm sure, especially since you live there too. You can find the rest of them also at the LostARGs blog. They were all really good at short notice meetups for the worldwide reveals, so if you really wanted to try I bet that it would not be too late to get in on it possibly.

Capcom said...

P.S. I'm sorry that I didn't think to tell you sooner about the Lost blog peeps meeting up in Hawaii for the premier.

Thunderstorm said...

Cap, that looks like the LostARG crowd. I'll have to say hello eventually.

Greg Tramel said...

I’ve been jealous of the LsotArgers making the rounds of the poster reveals

Maybe I can talk my wife to travel to Hawaii January 2011 for the Lost Conference

Lost: The Conference

Greg Tramel said...

the jack is is own grandfather meme is still floating around
LOST Theories: I’m My Own Grandpa

Capcom said...

Right Thunderstorm, LostARGs was created by Dennis who is a Lost Community admin. Then lots of other blog peeps migrated over to LostARGs for the last hiatus since Zort did such a great job keeping up on the poster reveals.

Wow, that LostCon looks neat.

Anonymous said...

After re-watching The Incident I am puzzled by one thing. When fake Locke & co reach the statue F-Locke asks Richard, "Why are we stopping?" Richard replies, "Because we have arrived." F-Locke then gets a pleased yet surprised look on his face. Since we know F-Locke is really the Man in Black, wouldn't he already know where to find Jacob? Thoughts?


Greg Tramel said...

i take it MIB didn't know Jacob was living in the foot

also, i agree the Shadow Cult went to the cabin expecting Jacob to still be there

Bigmouth said...

Capcom: I missed your question about Ben's comment that he hoped Jacob was happy. To my mind, it signals Ben's confusion over just who has been sending him dream visions. Ben believes it's Jacob, which is why the former associates the Cabin with the latter. One of those visions probably showed Ben turning the Wheel, leading to the time flashes, which are MIB's loophole. As for Malkin, I agree his "anOther" reference was a pun. But Malkin wasn't aware of the irony -- he clearly meant Claire should raise the baby herself.

Thunder: I think you nailed it when you say Jacob took advantage of fate with respect to Claire. She was always destined to be on that flight and have that baby -- Jacob just shifted the birth to the Island. On that note, is it possible MIB sent the vision to the psychic in an effort to frustrate Jacob's plan? The thing that continues to confuse me about Malkin is his admonition that Claire must keep Aaron, when her whole reason to get on the flight is to give him up for adoption in Los Angeles. Seems to me MIB would have more of a motive the send such a vision.

Hmmm...could Jacob have been responsible for Malkin's later change of heart?

Bigmouth said...

PS: The choice analogy to Hurley is an interesting one. But if we agree Claire's fate was always to be on that plane and give birth to Aaron thereafter, then what choice did she really have? Also, it just doesn't seem to me like Jacob's MO to send disturbing dream visions of future events. Isn't that more how you imagine MIB operating?

Capcom said...

Or, Big, Malkin misunderstood whomever told him to tell Claire that an Other shouldn't be involved and thought that it was one word, heheh. :o) It's also possible, as some have said, that the couple in LA was Jack and Kate, but unknown to Malkin they wouldn't be there for a while. Then that messes up the whole "You're not supposed to raise him Jack" thing. But I don't really care which one it is, I just hope that it's somehow cleared up.

I too have been bugged by Flocke's apparent confusion over a few things on the beach that one would assume he'd know if he were MIB. Unless he was just play-acting for the sake of those he was talking to, i.e., Ben, Sun, RA.... Need answers there too.

Greg Tramel said...

i thought Flocke was just play acting about not knowing Jacob was in the Foot but afer rewatching it again on Tues night i think Flocke was really suprised Jacob was in the foot

Thunderstorm said...

yes that is more of a MiB tactic and I think it probably all works better that way. MiB was trying to get her to keep it, stay in Australia and never get on the plane? And then Jacob had to intervene with the plane tickets and couple in LA? Works for me.

So that attaches some significance to her or Aaron or maybe both. It seems that MiB wanted Aaron gone, or maybe he just wanted Claire to himself. I would...;)

Evanford, Greg,
I just think he's playing dumb.
He still needs Ben and Richard to think he's John Locke.

KoreAmBear said...

I don't think Flocke was playing dumb about knowing about where Jacob lives - inside the foot. I believe that when the MIB takes over a body, it/he/you/all/everybody has some limitations in terms of memory and being in someone's body. It's the analogy of God sending his son to be in human form - so Jesus had to bear the failings of the flesh although he was omnipotent outside of the flesh.

@Greg @Capcom @thunderstorm - I'm too tired to try and meet up with the LOST blog peeps who are on the island. I've met the guy who runs the which seems to track LOST shooting locations with pics and details the best. There is no way I am going to Sunset on the Beach on Saturday -- I like to watch LOST with the CC on and actually quiet with no one there so it can have my full attention. It will be a frenzy to be out there on the beach watching that with distractions galore. But I could see it as such a fun time for people who flew over here and are at hotels across from where they will show 6 x 01 as well as do the red carpet thing beforehand. I know Darlton are here already and have made appearances. I wonder if JJA will be here - since it's the final season. Nah, sounds like he's basically persona non-grata and not step on Darlton's shoes - that's classy.

Greg Tramel said...

for this with a map fetish this one is pretty cool

Lost Island Subway System

yeah, most likely i won't make it to the Lost academic conference in 2011, hopefully the conference proceedings will be online

i'm sticking with Flocke was surprised Jacob lived in the foot also supported by Team Illana expecting to find Jacob in the cabin but i'm very open to being proven wrong

guess i'll mention the premier footage in the bottle on the spoiler post

Capcom said...

Maybe there is something that we need to see yet, about why Flocke didn't seem to know where Jacob was. There might be a missing scene that we will see soon that shows MIB thinking/knowing he's somewhere else. Just guessing.

Thunderstorm said...

Ok, first of all, Flocke is the Man in Black. Can we agree on this? If we agree on that, then proceed...

They are sitting on the beach, maybe a hundred yards or less from Taweret in all her glory and Jacob says to MiB "you know where to find me".

They like to parallel themes across scenes in the same episode, just a very basic writing technique, I would assume.

So here we have Flocke/Mib and Jacob in the opening and in the closing (save for bloody Juliet) and of the few precious lines that pass between these two guys, one of them is "you know where to find me" and they happen to be located in the closing, exactly where Jacob was located in the beginning.

All you have to do is assume Flocke was playing dumb and it makes perfect sense.

He was certainly playing dumb more than once. Especially if he sent that message to Ben using Alex. Not to mention whenever else. Even on the steps to the Statue. "I'm beginning to think you make these rules up as you go along, Richard".

If this is really the MiB, he should explicitly know what the rule is if he's planning for his loophole. Putting on a show for Richard, pretending to be a perturbed John Locke? Yes.

Let's assume he didn't know. Jacob recognized him the moment he walked in the door. If Jacob is elsewhere, what's to stop Jacob from fleeing and ruining MiB's plan if he sees him coming? MiB would know that he needed to have certain conditions.

One of them being, he needed to know where Jacob was, first. WHat's to guarantee the privacy being able to kill him w/o Richard seeing?

Because he knows the protocol? Then he's playing dumb to RA(again). If he doesn't know, isn't he flying by the seat of his pants? He said "you have no idea how long it took" or something to that effect. Went to a lot of trouble to steal Locke's image and prop up him and Ben, to just be making it up as he goes.

Lastly, what does him not knowing add to the story? Just wanted to give you my more reasoned opinion than what I'd stated previously.

Tele_turns said...

Apologies if these topics have been discussed. I'm somewhat new here. If they have been covered, I'd appreciate being directed to where that happened. If not, I'd welcome comments.

When Eloise visits Penelope in the hospital after Ben shot Desmond, Eloise says it's the first time in a very long time she does not know what's going to happen. Why is that? She certainly knew she was sending Daniel back so she could shoot him. What caused her suddenly not to know anymore?

Also, in LaFleur, when James, et al. shoot the two Others and help the woman (Horace's future wife) the woman takes a necklace off her dead husband (Paul). The necklace (which Horace find later which causes him to go on his drinking binge), is the same symbol as the one in the statute's hand. Comments?

Bigmouth said...

Tele_turns: Yep, the necklace was an ankh like the ones the statue held. As for Eloise's comments, much (if not all) of her knowledge of the future appears to come from Daniel's notebook. So, she knows everything up until 2007, when Ajira 316 returns to the Island.

tele_turns said...

Big - I was focusing on Eloise's knowledge from the past. In 1977, after she killed Daniel, she helped Jack and Sayid get the bomb. So why, in 2008, would she not know about the consequences of the detonation? Or does she?

Bigmouth said...

Tele_turns: She does know about the consequences of the bomb. I suspect everything we've seen her do is motivated by that knowledge. Check out Mommy Dearest for a more complete explanation.

tele_turns said...

Big - thanks very much.

Psychic said...
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