Friday, January 08, 2010

Jacob Brought DHARMA to the Island...

Back in Season 3, I speculated that Jacob was Alvar Hanso's alias.  Now that we've met both men, this speculation strikes me as less plausible.  (But far from impossible -- Alvar from The Lost Experience could simply be a decoy)  I'm nevertheless convinced that Jacob brought the DHARMA Initiative to the Island.  In this post, I review the evidence that supports my claim.

Obviously, the clearest indication is the Man in Black's literal accusation that Jacob brings people to the Island.  The former is referring specifically to the Black Rock when he says: "You brought them here."  But I take the Man in Black to mean that Jacob is always the one who brings people to the Island, including DHARMA. 



Earlier in their exchange, the Man in Black asks Jacob: "How did they find the Island?"  More than a century later, Ms. Hawking will state that the Lamp Post "is how they found the Island."  She means DHARMA, not the Black Rock, but her comment reads eerily like a reply to the Man in Black's query.  How much you want to bet that the "clever fellow" who designed the Lamp Post pendulum was somehow inspired by Jacob?



Besides the aforementioned dialogue, the strongest evidence of Jacob's hand in DHARMA is probably the sonar fence around the Barracks.  There's no question in my mind that the fence was specifically designed to stop Smokey.  As Richard reminds Horace, it doesn't keep out the Others.  And many less advanced technologies -- e.g., a simple electric fence -- would be just as effective against the Island's wildlife at a fraction of the cost.  I'm guessing Jacob told DHARMA how to neutralize Smokey.



Of course, as lostmio reminds us, we never actually see Smokey during DHARMA times.  I myself have wondered if the Incident released Smokey from imprisonment in the Temple or underground like Charlie cracking the wasp nest back in Season 1.  If that's right, though, why does the sonar fence predate the actual threat to DHARMA?  Here again, Jacob's assistance seems key.  His foreknowledge of the threat led DHARMA to build the fence preemptively.

The final piece of evidence I offer for your consideration is admittedly somewhat speculative.  Still, the statement in the Room 23 film that "God loves you as He loved Jacob" strikes me as more than merely a biblical reference.  I suppose it's open to question whether DHARMA or the Others created the film.  After witnessing Oldham's trippy interrogation methods, however, mind control movies seem right up DHARMA's alley. 



And that raises one more point meriting clarification.  Just because Jacob brings people to the Island doesn't mean they're good.  I'm sure that the Man in Black speaks truthfully when he says many of these invitees fight, destroy, and corrupt.  Some of Jacob's maneuvers are about getting the right pieces (e.g., the Jughead and the Swan) in place for lynch-pin events like the Incident and crash of Oceanic 815.  The U.S. military and DHARMA were simply convenient means to these ends.

So there you have it: the case for Jacob's involvement in bringing DHARMA to the Island.  What do you all everybody think?  As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

181 comments:

Greg Tramel said...

is there any reason Ellie's clever man couldn't be Jacob himself like we originally thought?

of course i suppose jacob may not technically be a man

Bigmouth said...

That possibility occurred to me, but "clever fellow" sounds a tad patronizing to me. I'd expect Eloise to refer to Jacob with more respect.

KoreAmBear said...

So that "clever fellow" is Hanso not Faraday?

Speaking of helping bring someone to the island, for some reason I had this random thought. Who was that lady in the butcher shop that was helping Ben conceal Locke's body and prepping for transit?

She was so interested about what was in Jack's bag (which was his dad's shoes for Locke to wear)?

lukemh said...

could MIB be the one that bought DARMA to the island, jacob brought the losties and the others (black rock ship) to protect and defeat the exploitation of the island.

Capcom said...

Neat thoughts Big. I also have thought that Jacob just brought humans in general to the island, like someone with a big fishing net. You get some good fish and you get some bad ones. And that perhaps Jacob is saying to MIB that a few bad ones doesn't spoil the whole bunch, but that MIB hates 'em all, or has no patience for any of us.

I like your thoughts about Hanso too. And to take it further -- just in case TPTB thought this far ahead, which I doubt -- Hanso and Mittlewerk are sort of mirrors of Jacob and MIB in a way. Mittlewerk overtook Hanso and kept him prisoner in his own house while Mitt wrecked havoc with the corporation.

That would be neat KAB.

Was her name Tammy or something like that? Some think it's odd that she seemed to know more about Ben's plans than just about anyone we've ever seen so far.

Capcom said...

P.S. And it does make sense that the clever fellow could be Hanso, because of what he said in the Sri Lanka vid about the secret island that they found. But it still leaves the option wide open until we get more clues about it.

MikeNY said...

Big —

Another gem and great topic for discussion.

But... Wasn't there some DHARMA video or literature mentioning unique but natural, black vapor from the ocean? That is, I seem to recall DHARMA giving a cover for the smoke, suggesting they were aware of the smoke prior to the incident.

I wish I could recall the source. Perhaps it was in that DHARMA kit that included the truce letter.

Thunderstorm said...

You also have the oddities of how the Barracks are situated with the tunnels.

We see the Army camp in 1954, which could have been roughly where the barracks were built, I am unsure of this, so leaving this behind...

We definitely have a secret door hooked directly up to Ben's house, with a full on 'summoning' chamber.
Horace's house is built adjacent to a tunnel...

It has always seemed to me that Dharma had inside help.

The biggest question of all, with regard to Dharma (JMO) WHY WERE THEY ALLOWED TO STAY AND BUILD ESSENTIALLY AN ENTIRE SECURED COMPOUND?

Well, if Jacob allowed it, then there you go.

Also, Richard seems to come and go freely within the sonic fence, if he wanted them gone, seems him and some saboteurs could do Dharma in pretty easily.

Finally, the drilling near the FDW chamber is seemingly 'allowed' (how could they NOT know?) but violation of the truce is big F'n business?

I totally support this idea. I had thought it was Widmore, but could never make it work. Jacob may have used Widmore, but it's clear there is some compartmentalized rifts in the Others. Or secret cooperations with Dharma.

Jacob bringing them covers all bases. Home run.

Ricky said...

You know I just had a thought while reading some of these comments. If the sonic fence is there to keep Smokey out, then why after Ben summoned Smokey in season four, did he come through Dharmaville/New Otherton like a freight train? Technically he was inside the fence right?

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Ricky:

Keamy and his guys had Alex fully deactivate the sonic fence for them in The Shape of Things to Come. Ben got notified of the perimeter breach by the code "14J" phone call, so by the time he summoned Smokey he knew the fence was off.

Bigmouth:

Following up on the discussion about this in the other thread:

I tend to agree that Jacob played some role in helping bring DHARMA to the Island, maybe via some subtle "pushes" like we saw with some of the critical 815'ers. Maybe the clever fellow that built the Lighthouse received some divine inspiration. Do you think this could have in part been some sort of countermove to the Others possibly falling under the sway of the MiB?

I also think it is likely that Widmore brought the Others to inhabit the barracks after the purge for the very reason that the sonic fence was there. They had lived on the Island for decades without modern amenities, which seem to be out of synch with their connection to the Island as pointed out by Locke in any event. Only reason I can see would be increased Smokey activity - fitting nicely with your idea.

BTW - the only other offensive measure that has been seen to be effective against Smokey was the TNT dropped in his hidey hole when he tried to take Locke underground in Exodus, Part 2. The concussive force and shock waves generated by the blast would probably be akin to the sonic waves of the fence. Maybe a prior experience like that was how Smokey's Achilles heel was discovered in the first place.

neoloki said...

yes, I agree completely Big. Also, Jacob went to Horace to create the lamppost. I have a feeling DHARMA knew about the Island before Jacob approached them.

One aspect of Lost seems to be a giant strategy game that has very little to do with good and evil. We will find both Jacob and MIB will incorporate different shades of grey in a moral and physical war and they will be equally sympathetic.

neoloki said...

Horace is a mathematician and built the cabin. his awareness of Jacob seems more than plausible. He also has the means and the mental capability to create or find a way to the Island; with the help of Jacob of course.

Net

In dead is dead flocke sure makes it sound like Ben was the one who moved the others into the barracks. Corporate, was his opinion of the move.

lostmio said...

Nice topic, Big, and I love the Charlie / beehive analogy re Smokey. Right on.
Capcom, I think you've hit on something, too, with Hanso/Mittlewerk being analogous to Jacob/MiB.

I’m far from convinced, tho, that Jacob brought Dharma. Yes, Jacob brings people to the island, and yes, that results in fighting and bloodshed. But there are some sticky points to his having a connection with Dharma. Here are two of the biggest:
1. If Jacob wanted someone to come to the island, it’s not likely that he would have left it to some unidentified ‘clever fellow’ to build and design that elaborate pendulum station to find the island. That’s just not Jacob’s style.
2. Dharma and Richard’s group were at odds from the get-go. We could spin theories all day about how/why it was so if they were both heeding Jacob’s call, but we’re talking about a scripted show. There’s imo no way the writers would have written that. As much an optimist re humankind Jacob was, he wasn’t stupid. He wouldn’t have brought those two groups together. He was carefully and studiously weaving a tapestry, not just yelling “sooey” to call in any pigs within hearing distance.
Imo, Jacob *chose* the people/groups he wanted to come to the island. I don’t know his criteria, but he gave it careful thought. He may have started out – back in Black Rock days, maybe – casting a wide net, but by Dharma time he had a plan and criteria.

Jacob’s mention in the room 23 film could be because the film was used by Dharma to brainwash captured hostiles, or it might have been inserted by Ben.

Right now, I’m mulling the idea that’s being thrown around over at DarkUFO: that MiB pulled a long con on the Others. Ben et al thought they were following Jacob’s orders, but MiB was pulling a con on them. There are problems with that too, tho (mainly RA’s involvement) so I’m staying open.
I'd give a lot to know what MiB's 'name' is; some time ago we had a tidbit that he did have a name bu that it was being withheld because it a tip off.

lostmio said...

neoloki, I don't know how/why/when Horace drew those plans, but I don't think the cabin was ever Jacob's.

Ilana said "HE hasn't been here in a long time, someone else has been using it".
I took that to mean "MiB hasn't been here in a long time." And we know Christian (who may or may not have been a smokey manifestation) and Claire were using it, after MiB.

So my take is that someone, after the Locke-Ben visit, broke the circle and MiB escaped.
It was MiB who left the knife with the fragment - as a threat, or a gloat.

Jacob was never there, he only stayed in the statue/foot.

lostmio said...

Thunderstorm said, "We see the Army camp in 1954, which could have been roughly where the barracks were built, I am unsure of this."

fwiw, Richard's army tent site was outside the Dharma fence.

When the episodes ran, folks on the forum pointed out that the army camp site did not change between 1954 and 1977. They noted laughingly how the palm trees, a la Richard, were even still exactly the same size, altho they should have noticeably grown.

Thunderstorm said...

The army camp site didn't change between 1954 and 1977? Wow. I would have thought they were different for sure. The 1954 scene seem out in the middle of a valley, whereas the 1977 scene seems buried in the jungle.

But I take your word for it, LM.

On the other points, they are certainly worth considering. I'll take a guess at some possibilities.

1. If the Island is always moving, then as Dharma is bringing regimented groups of workers, scientists and recruits to the Island...it might help if Dharma can pin-point where it will be. They have to be able to build things (such as the Looking Glass) first, in order to ge things up and running.

2. Which brings me to this point, logic tells me (at least) that Dharmaville and the stations were not built over night, or anything near. Including the sonic fence.

20 U.S. Army soldiers get waxed because they fire upon the Others. Well, this tells us (as well as other events we've seen) that the Others are something of the order of Bad-Ass.

I get the feeling that Dharma's stay would have to be some sort of begrudging 'ok, your cousin can stay in the guest room, but only for two weeks' sort of thing.

In other words, 'permission'.

Because if they didn't want them there from the jump, I can't be convinced that Dharma can secure itself without having inside help.

Thunderstorm said...

Had another thought.

If Jacob has a plan for passengers of 815 effectuating the Incident, then he NEEDS that hole at the Swan to be drilled. So he would need Dharma already there.

If MIB or even Jacob want the Island moved, then they need a way to get down there to the FDW chamber. In 1974, there was no way in because Chang had to stop drilling.

The Orchid 'Pod' is built over the tunnel. Chang was down there long enough to film the pod video, so that pod was likely constructed while he was there.

You cover all these issues simply by saying Dharma had inside help.

neoloki said...

Illiana was close to Jacob. Even rumors of a special relationship. She was taking Locke's body to show Jacob what he is up against. If Jacob was never in the cabin why wouldn't she just go to the statue. I agree however that at some point MIB took the cabin or was imprisoned there, but Illiana defiantly thought that was where Jacob was.

lostmio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lostmio said...

Thunderstorm, re the camp sites, I was pulling from a memory of a long discussion in one of the forums; they might not have been comparing the same two scenes you did, but their conclusion was that Richard's camp site (or sites) were outside the fence. I didn't check the frames myself.

neoloki, here's what I posted at Dark's, in response to your post there that Ilana was taking the body to Jacob:
She for sure was working for Jacob, but she wasn't taking the body to him. She was taking it to Richard's group.
She had told Frank they were taking the body to "show someone" "so they'll know what they're up against". And immediately after Richard gave her the correct password answer, Ilana told him "I have something you need to see".
It wasn't made clear if the cabin was Ilana's group's destination or not. Likely they were enroute to the temple or some such place, with a planned detour by the cabin. When they saw the knife and fragment (imo put there by MiB), they knew they had to head to the statue.

I deleted and re-entered this comment, to fix typos

lostmio said...

Thunderstorm said "The Orchid 'Pod' is built over the tunnel. Chang was down there long enough to film the pod video, so that pod was likely constructed while he was there."

I thought the drilling and incident happened at the Swan.. and that the shaft/tunnel became the hatch that Kate/Locke/Jack used to enter the Swan.

Cameron said...

I would also like to make a supporting claim to this theory.

On the season 3 box set, it says "Jacob loves you" on the cover of the boxset. I always wondered what the significance of putting this on the box was, as it never really was apparent to me in the third series.

However it might have been a clue, as most of season 3 centered around Dharma stuff.

neoloki said...

MIO

here was what i posted on dark's site in response:

It seemed like they knew exactly where they were going and that was to the
cabin. Once they got there and found the image pinned to the wall with a
knife is when Bram said, "well, I guess we know were we are going now" Which
is a very specific signal that they were not heading to the temple or the
statue.
I suppose there is room for interpretation here as everything was slightly
ambiguous, but Illiana says, he is not here and that someone else has been
using it. I doubt they are referring to Richard. So, regardless of who her
initial venture was intended for I believe Jacob at some point used that
cabin.

Update: also, if they wanted to take the body to Richard why would Bram say, after viewing the picture of Taweret, I guess we know where we are going now. If they wanted Richard they would have continued on to the temple. Iliana must have known the statue was one of the places Jacob resides.

Thunderstorm said...

Lostmio, quoting you

"I thought the drilling and incident happened at the Swan.. and that the shaft/tunnel became the hatch that Kate/Locke/Jack used to enter the Swan."

Yes, absolutely.

I'm talking about the tunnel/pathway that Ben took from the Pod area to the FDW chamber.

When Chang and the DI were down there in 1974, that tunnel was probably not there. Or else, they would have probably sent somebody through it. As it was, they were looking at the sonar-map/x-ray thing with the image of the FDW like they had no clue what it was.

In other words, Dharma didn't have access to the FDW in 1974. The Pod is built over that tunnel that Ben crawled through. The Orchid video, which contains the Pod was made probably around 1980.

So my contention is, that the tunnel that the Orchid Pod was built over was drilled roughly between '74 and '80.

Note in 'Because You Left', the camera moves right into one of those holes at the close of the opening scene. Perhaps the beginning of that same tunnel? Hard to say but could be.

Either way, looking at many of these issues. it just seems there were some Dharma-Jacobian shenanigans if you ask me. And if they were to explain it that way, they could cover a lot of implicit ground just with a bit of dialogue in Season Six.

I don't expect them to spend much time at all on Dharma in Season Six, so I figure it's either a blanket answer that implies lots of things or it's ignored.

Greg Tramel said...

i always figured The Others appropriated the DI facilities such as Room 23 and spliced the Jacob stuff in for their own purposes

even if Jacob did bring DI to the island, i'm not sure how much DI knew about Jacob if anything

i think the DI story is pretty much over

Greg Tramel said...

off topic but fascinating idea

Ben=MIB after Sayid shoots kid Ben and RA takes him into the temple

Why they have to erase the past

Greg Tramel said...

so what island years did we not see Smokey?

Smokey played by Michael Emerson might explain it

Nicky said...

I wondered whether Daniel designed the Lamp Post station. Eloise's pride when she refers to the man who created it sounds a lot like pride in a child.

Greg Tramel said...

yes, it is very likely Daniel is the clever fellow

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Small problem with Dan Faraday having been the one that created the Lamp Post: it was built prior to DHARMA ever having found the Island. While Faraday did leave the Island between 1974 and 1977, the Lamp Post already existed at that time. There is no indication that he ever had some other opportunity to have time traveled so as to have created the station in the 1960's.

Bigmouth said...

KoreAmBear: Yep, I'm thinking Hanso designed the Lamp Post.

Capcom: I, too, felt like the Mittelwerk/Hanso dynamic was meant to mirror some relationship on the show. Originally, I thought Jacob was trapped in the Cabin by Ben. Now, however, I think it was MIB who was trapped by Jacob. Unfortunately, that latter possibility implies that Mittelwerk is Jacob's analogue, while Hanso's is MIB. Doesn't that strike you as the opposite of what the analogy should be?

lukemh: What about MIB gives you the sense he wants people to exploit the Island? I get quite the opposite impression.

Mike: The ocean thing does ring a bell and it fits well with the "sonar" aspect of the fence. Any luck finding a source?

NetProphet: Interesting point about the noise from the dynamite being what disrupted Smokey as it dragged Locke back in Exodus. I'll bet Smokey then decided to let him go rather than risk damaging MIB's chosen one.

Neoloki: Good point about Horace's mathematical background possibly linking him with Jacob. But I actually have Horace pegged more as an MIB guy, mainly because of his appearance in Locke's dream leading to the Cabin. On that note, remember what Horace says in the dream? The Cabin's resident has been "waiting a real long time" therein for Locke. If you believe the Cabin was originally Jacob's, just how long ago do you think he departed?

That's partly why I'm skeptical Ilana expected to find Jacob at the Cabin. Lostmio has hit a lot of the main points, particularly the "shadow of the statue" riddle suggesting Jacob was there the whole time. I'll simply add that Ilana and Co. approach the Cabin with extreme caution. They are visibly alarmed when they see the circle broken, then burn the Cabin that you believe belonged to their leader. That behavior sounds to me like they expected to find MIB therein, were alarmed to find he'd escaped, then burned his former prison to purify it.

Lostmio: Great points about why Ilana and Co. were expecting to find MIB at the Cabin. My whackadoo theory is that Jacob asked Ilana to bring Locke's body to MIB to facilitate his escape. But even if that's totally wrong, it still makes sense that they would check MIB's prison to see if he'd found the Loophole. I think Ilana already suspected that MIB had in the form of fLocke. I actually believe Jacob left the tapestry fragment as a message that the Loophole had been found. Unless...did MIB visit the Foot while Jacob was away?

Thunder: Precisely! Jacob's loop connecting 1977 and 2004 depends on the hole being drilled at the Swan site, so the Incident can happen, so the Swan will be built, so Desmond can miss the button, so Oceanic 815 will crash, so the survivors will travel back in time to cause the Incident, completing the causal chain. The loop may also extend even further back to Black Rock times, but that's highly speculative. BTW, I think you're correct that the original drilling accident (i.e., where the workmen became unstuck in time) happened at the Orchid.

Cameron: Good point! It seems clear from Darlton's comments that, by Season 3, they had the general mythology planned, including Jacob's significance.

Greg: Count me among those who believe Ben came under MIB's influence after being taken to the Temple. That's the premise of Cabin Fever Relapse. I should probably have clarified in my post that I still think it's most likely that Smokey was in the Temple -- whether by choice or as a prisoner I'm unsure -- during DHARMA times.

Nick: Could be Faraday who designed the Lamp Post, but as Netprophet notes, there would need to have been some time travel we've yet to see. My money is still on Hanso, though I doubt we'll ever get confirmation on the show.

Bigmouth said...

PS: Netprophet, that's a really interesting point about DHARMA being Jacob's countermove to MIB having coopted the Others. It's very possible, but we don't need to make that assumption to explain DHARMA's presence on the Island. Jacob needs the Incident to happen so the Swan can be built.

ozward said...

Hey guys:

Would it be too simple/obvious to assume Jacob has lived at the statue since the scene of Blackrock/loophole discussion?

In other words, we can know that it was never Jacob in the cabin because he tells MIB that he knows where to find him when he find the loophole.

Too much of an assumption?

Bigmouth said...

ozward: That actually strikes me as a completely reasonable assumption. There's no clear evidence either way, but I interpret clues like the "shadow of the statue" riddle to mean Jacob was always there. Except, of course, when he left the Island to touch people.

Anonymous said...

Hey everyone. I've been reading the present and past posts for a few months now, just sort of lurking in the background. However I just wanted to throw a couple logs on the fire to see what you thought.

For the Lamp Post, I think that Daniel could have been the driving force behind its creation. Could the mathematical derivations used to locate the island have been left behind in the journal which he gives Haking in 54'?

Also, I've thoroughly enjoyed your thoughts on quite a few topics, but I'm curious as to why no one (from what i've read) has brought up the idea that Jacob is the bad guy in this whole cosmic game. We are all so quick to assume that when he says "it can only end once, everything esle is just progress" that its a positive statement. It could just as easily mean that the world can only end once, and each time I (jacob)bring human beings to the island their behavior progesses to a more and more destructive state. MiB could simply be making a tired observation of the same old saga playing out again and again in his line "they come, they fight, they corrupt the desroy".

In other words, could the long con that everyone assumes is occuring really be that MiB is trying to preserve the island, and Jacob is trying to destroy it?

-Diamond Dave

Greg Tramel said...

"The pendulum was added LATER by a "very clever" individual who realized that in order to find the Island, it was not a question of where to locate it, but to determine where it was going to be at a given point in time" Lostpedia

so Daniel could still be the very clever individual, IMHO

Anonymous said...

Also, I realize that having the dynamic between Mittlework and Hanso makes great sense to be an analogue of MiB and Jacob, but wouldn't it make more sense if Hanso was somehow connected with RA instead? It was revealed (do not know the specific epidsode offhand) that the captain on the Black Rock was named Hanso (not Alvar), and we are all assuming that Richard Alpert came to the island via the Black Rock, so I feel as though there is a connection there.

re: Daniel being responsible for the pendulum, could that be what he worked on in Ann Arbor for 3 years when the time travelers were stuck in 74-77'?

-Diamond Dave

lostmio said...

neoloki said " also, if they wanted to take the body to Richard why would Bram say, after viewing the picture of Taweret, I guess we know where we are going now. If they wanted Richard they would have continued on to the temple."

When they found the fragment, they changed their plans. The fragment was MiB's message that he was headed to the statue.

At that point, Ilana & Bram might have assumed Richard was already at the statue or they might have just decided they needed to hook 'em. Either way works.

Ilana's "what lies in the shadow.." question confirms that she knows he's only found at the statue. But she didn't intend to head there directly, she first intended to hook up with Richard's group. MiB's escape was a game-changer for Ilana's group.

lostmio said...

Diamond Dave, I don't recall Hanso being named as captain or an officer on the Black Rock.
The Hanso family had the First Mate's journal, but reportedly came came into possession of it sometime after the BR went missing.

lostmio said...

I like Faraday too, as the "clever fellow" of the Lamp Post.
Lostpedia says it was likely built in the 60's or 70's. Judging by the technology, I pegged it as more likely 70's.
Works well with Faraday's being off island 1974-77.

lostmio said...

Diamond Dave said " could the long con that everyone assumes is occuring really be that MiB is trying to preserve the island, and Jacob is trying to destroy it?"

Or maybe it's an even longer con and Jacob wants to destroy the island because that's the only way to save the world?

I don't like either of the above scenarios. But I've not seen anyone here or many people on other forums who have declared Jacob to be all good. He's the white player and MiB's the black player, but I don't know any game that assigns moral value to the colors.

That said, we've already seen an imo 'bad' side to MiB - he deceives, impersonates, lies, and manipulates, and he doesn't handle anger well (scene where he kicked Jacob into the fire).
We've not *yet* seen much of Jacob, and I expect he's got his flaws too.

Greg Tramel said...

fwiw, Lostpedia says "Magnus Hanso was the great grandfather of Alvar Hanso (as revealed by Javier Grillo-Marxuach [1]). A 19th-century sea captain and shipping merchant, he possibly commanded the Black Rock."

Greg Tramel said...

like i've said before i think Locke's notion of a separate white side and separate black side is a mythological construct and the deconstruction of those signifiers is a theme in the show

Jacob has done some fairly “bad” things, IMHO

Anonymous said...

I suppose I was on the assumption that the game of Light vs. Dark was symbolic of good vs. evil. We've all seen the comparisons to different gnostic entities and not so subtle hints that one side is good and the other is bad (how many times have you heard various characters say "we are not the bad guys")

An oversight on my behalf, perhaps.

-Diamond Dave

lostmio said...

Another reason I don't think Jacob is connected with Dharma:
It was Eloise who, via the Lamp Post nailed Ajira 816 as the way back to the island. She must have told Ilana, too. There's no other way Ilana would have known. And Ilana is 100% a Jacob follower.

Eloise rounded up as many 815s as she could on her own; Ilana brought Sayid, and Jacob managed to persuade Hurley. Team work: Eloise, Ilana, and Jacob knew who was 'on board' and who wasn't.

Everything we know about Eloise, to date, points away from her ever having any association with Dharma.
Since she's on Jacob's team, that makes it unlikely he's associated with Dharma.

(an aside: I've thought long and hard about whether eloise knew about Flocke when she insisted Locke's body be taken back. I've played out both scenarios - that she did, and that she didn't - and either way is consistent with her working with Jacob.
She could have known and could have told Ilana to be on the lookout. Ilana's group, including Cesar, seemed suspicious of Flocke from the get-go.
Or she Eloise might not have known and only sent the body for the reason given - to duplicate 815 as closely as possible.)

Greg Tramel said...

sorry, i just need Lostpeida to jog my feeble mind of all the minutia i can’t even begin to remember

but what a concept Alvar Hanso and his grandfather Magnus Hanso have the same last name, wish more families had the same last name to help me keep them all straight

Diamond Dave, but remember what Frank, saying we’re the good guy is usually analogous to really being the bad guy

lostmio said...

I just talked myself into acknowledging that *Widmore* is indeed on the same team as Dharma..
a theory I've always mulishly resisted.

The reason is, Miles to Bram: "you're playing for the wrong team", after Widmore recruited the freighter team.

Widmore was bitter when Ben desposed him. So taking up with Ben's archenemy would have been a natural move.
And Eloise of course has never forgiven him for it.

Makes me wonder if Sun's visit to Widmore was foreshadowing something for S6. We already know that she's predisposed to follow Locke to find Jin. It's easy to imagine her taking up with MiB/Flocke for the same reason. This team is shaping up to be huge, IMO.

lostmio said...

I meant "this team THING" is shaping up. It's the 2 teams, 2 players concept that imo will be huge in S6.

Which is why this is such a great thread topic, Bigmouth, and why it's important to figure out whether or not Dharma and Jacob are/were connected.

Greg Tramel said...

i'm not sure DI and The Others are on opposite sides so i don’t why Jacob couldn’t have brought both the DI and The Others to the island and why Widmore couldn't side with both the DI and The Others

BTW, i've been meaning to say i really like David’s description of The Others as a rag tag group

Bigmouth said...

I'm confused. Our Losties -- including Faraday -- were flashed to a point in the past after DHARMA had already found the Island using the Lamp Post. How is it possible Daniel could have designed the Lamp Post himself unless he subsequently traveled by himself even further into the past?

Greg Tramel said...

yes, Diamond Dave I would definitely say Locke’s idea of Light vs. Dark was symbolic of good vs. evil but the point being he was wrong all along and was headed towards a false enlightenment from episode 1

Bigmouth said...

Greg: Where did you get that quote about the pendulum being added "later"? That's not what the lostpedia transcript says:

"ELOISE: Yes. The island. They'd gathered proof that it existed. They knew it was out there somewhere, but they just couldn't find it. Then a very clever fellow built this pendulum on the theoretical notion that they should stop looking for where the island was supposed to be and start looking for where it was going to be."

The pendulum was how DHARMA found the Island. Again, I don't see how Daniel could possibly have designed it, unless there was some further time travel we don't know about.

Greg Tramel said...

Big, the Lamp Post was already there but Daniel added Foucault’s Pendulum in the early 70s

Bigmouth said...

Greg: What is the basis for that claim? Again, the dialogue clearly suggests that DHARMA found the Island using the pendulum.

Greg Tramel said...

i got the info from the Lamp Post article in Lostpedia but your right, i suppose it’s dead wrong if the script does not say that

Bigmouth said...

Greg: It's possible there was a DHARMA station over the electromagnetic pocket below the church before the pendulum was added. But the pendulum was how they found the Island -- no question.

Greg Tramel said...

ok, shows you can't trust Lostpedia (which we already knew) because i took the article on the Lamp Post for its word indicating it was quoting the script verbatim

so Alvar Hanso was the clever fellow that built the pendulum, right?

Greg Tramel said...

actually, weren’t the pendulum computations based on Feynman formulas so the clever man was actually Feynman

neoloki said...

I totally don't buy that Faraday had anything to do with The Lamp Post. The timing is all wrong.
Horace or Hanso makes the most sense. Just because Horace is affiliated with MIB does not mean he couldn't have designed The Lamp Post. Horaces affiliations could have changed at some point, if you want to go with him and MIB.

I really don't think Lost is going to turn into a morality play where either Jacob is good or MIB is good. They each have a goal and the means will justify the method. each will be acting morally ambiguous in order to attain there goals. Nothing in Lost and no person on Lost is wholly good or evil. Both Ben and Widmore have done terrible things and this example can be carried all the way done judging each of our Losties, so to expect that Jacob will be good and MIB will be evil seems not to matter in the big picture. In the end it will be a matter of who do you sympathize more with. Similarly, this will dictate what team each of our Losties joins.

Thunderstorm said...

Maybe Jacob didn't 'bring' them there, maybe he just helped Dharma find the Island.

What in the world is Eloise doing in a Dharma station? The "mysteries of the universe" spoof implies she's been there a long time.

They infiltrated Dharma on-Island (with Ben and maybe Ethan), why not with Eloise, off-Island?

Where does Eloise get all the gobbledy-goo she spews to Jack about "proxies" and recreating 815?

She could have not known about "proxies" (whether it's real or a ruse) and she could have not known about Red Shoes Man dying, unless someone told her. Perhaps it was the same "clever man" that built the pendulum?

How does she know all this sciency science of pendulums and complex equations on chalkboards unless she dives in HEAD FIRST and infiltrates Dharma and their physics wing?

So she could work off-Island as the mole for Jacob inside of Dharma.

Since 316 seems to be a HUGE cog in Jacob's Rube-Goldberg, then the Lamp Post always needs to be there and if Dharma always needs to be on the Island, then Jacob would likely be associated with the "clever fellow"

Maybe it's the same person across the board, but certainly all associated. That is, the "clever fellow", the person who gave Eloise the Red Shoes info and the person who have her the proxy info. All under the Jacob umbrella.

And what are the '77 Losties there to do? Well the 316/proxy thing was basically to get Jack some 'religion', the one who could get them all to do it, to become the Variables for Jacob. He used Ellie, which got her son involved, which got the information to Jack and Sayid, which...you get the idea.

To sum, if Jacob wants Jack to pioneer the Incident party and become his Variables to do 'something', he needed the Lamp Post in place from the jump to get Dharma there and eventually 316 there (for both 316 and the Incident).

Jacob Ex Machina. I'm not in love with that idea but if it makes sense, I like it. Something has to make it all less confusing in a short period of time. Especially if they are planning on not telling more Dharma backstory (assumption)

(re: patronization towards Jacob)
Eloise, would be passing off information given to her from someone else. This is what she does with Jack and Desmond, IMO. So when she says "clever fellow", she would be referring to someone other than Jacob, even if that pendulum information did come from Jacob.

Thunderstorm said...

lostmio,
You're making a solid argument that Ilana wasn't looking for Jacob in the cabin. One major question though, ...she says "somebody else has been using it"...who would this mean if she wasn't expecting to find Jacob and/or expecting to find Darth Welliver?

ozward,
Nice observation, MiB likely knew right where Jacob would be.

neoloki,
couldn't agree more. I agree with (was it mio?) who used Black and White as 'team' designation and also agree with Greg, who referred to deconstructing those ideas.

lostmio said...

oh ugh, ugly spam.

Thunderstorm - yes, I think Ilana's plan was to check out the cabin, while enroute to the Temple. She was expecting/hoping MiB was still confined there.

The "somebody else" who had been using it was Christian, and maybe Claire ca 1974-1977.

lostmio said...

Bigmouth, re the question of when Dharma found the island v. when the Pendulum was built: the polar bear turned the wheel after Dharma settled the island. So the mainland folks probably lost it.

I tend to think the Pendulum was an add on to the LP because of Eloise's wording - the clever fellow built "the pendulum", NOT "this station".

Greg Tramel said...

this may be what Alvar’s name alludes to

Alvars

lostmio said...

What I said doesn't square with Eloise's total statement, though, does it?

This show's so whacked re timing of events that it's not possible to line up all the dialogue and make it all agree. We each have to choose what we think is important to the long story and what's not.

IMO, the Lamp Post is not. It was just a cool device to get the Losties back to the island.

The alliances, both those in place and those still forming, ARE important.
The character interplay we've seen to date imo doesn't support a Jacob-Dharma connection, but I've been wrong way more than I've been right. It's possible that Jacob-Dharma, a la Ben and Widmore, might have once shared a bed and since split the blanket. But I don't think Jacob indiscriminately cast a wide net and inadvertently snagged Dharma.

Greg Tramel said...

your comments on the pendulum make sense to me Lostmio and i agree who built the pendulum does not really matter in the big picture and like somebody commented i doubt we will even get that answer

if asked the 1st few seasons who was the most enlightened, i think we would almost unanimously say Locke however after what we have seen though S5 with Locke living life as a black/white and evil/good game he fell hook, line and sinker into MIB’s mousetrap

Greg Tramel said...

but Lostmio i think it is a bit murky for where to draw the line between the DI, the Others/Hostiles, Jacob’s disciples and the Shadow Cult

they all seem to be interconnected to me but i don’t think MIB brought ANYBODY to the island so maybe i’m off my rocker (it wont be the 1st time or last time for that matter)

Greg Tramel said...

Big, i guess when you originally said Ben was under MIB's influence in the earlier post i didn’t make the connection then that Ben could be one of the Cerberus heads after he had his temple ritual

is that what you are saying? So Ben=Cerberus head until he turned the FDW or was he also a Cerberus head when he had Sayid kill everybody on Earth?

neoloki said...

Why would Iliana be expecting or hoping that MIB was in the cabin if she needed to show the body to someone to know what they are up against. She is obviously connected with Jacob and there is no reason for Richard to be at the cabin. Also, the someone else who was residing there can't be Christian because he was already there very late in the game and the difference between ... well, given this is not a spoiler post I can't continue here.

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: If Ilana knew Jacob was at the statue all the time, and if the purpose of the body was to show Jacob what he was up against, then the logical inference is that their stop at the Cabin had nothing to do with showing the body to Jacob. Like I said, I think they were checking the MIB's prison at Jacob's request.

Again, you haven't answered my question. If ghost Horace was right that MIB has been waiting for Locke a "long time" in the Cabin, how could Ilana possibly be expecting Jacob there?

IMO, Ilana's comment makes the most sense if we assume that MIB was always in the Cabin as a ghost, that he left the Cabin after resuming corporeal form as casual Zombie Christian, and that "someone else" (perhaps Claire) has been living there ever since.

neoloki said...

Whakadoo idea:
If Jacob is a 4D creature and his body can only be killed, I believe Jacob's spirit is roaming through time and space and needs to get back into a physical body on the Island and when Locke heard someone say "Help Me" that was actually Jacob post MIB killing him. Locke will end up being the savior by the end of the show because Widmore will get the ALT Locke onto the Island. The Island only has one time line.It is the nexus.

this just came to me while watching Lost in 8:15...

Bigmouth said...

Neoloki: Whoah...you just set my face to stunned! I'm not sure I buy it but that would be one hell of a compelling twist...

neoloki said...

...lightbulb flashes above head...Ohh, I get it.
well, Big, I can't argue against that. very logical and it makes sense. I think that is the cleanest explanation.

neoloki said...

I was watching Lost in 8:15 and the narrator tells us Jacob spoke to Locke in the cabin then later refers to someone else telling Locke to move the Island and it stuck with me that maybe that is exactly how it went down and maybe that was really Jacob.

neoloki said...

I am going to roll with my whackadoo a little farther:

Jacob told Iliana at the hospital that MIB will kill him and that he needs a body or "a candidate", thus Iliana going to the cabin with Lapidus in tow to see if Jacob's spirit is still there and she could return him to physical form. The rest of the journey is as stated above. They were taking Locke's dead body to show Richard what he was up against and were headed to The Temple until they saw the ash broken, Jacob's spirit was loose on the Island, and the picture of Tawaret ad new event's were converging there and that would be the best place to find Richard.

neoloki said...

I think that could work, although it is a bit "out there".

Capcom said...

Good thoughts everyone!

I could definitely get into that being the reason for Jacob's visit to Ilana. Don't want Frankie to die though, but....the other part I can see.

For so long it's been difficult to tell if someone was being kept in, or being kept out, of the cabin. I could also see it being as a protective place for Jacob, but as usual with Lost, there are still so many seemingly contradicting pieces that it's hard to be sure either way for me. I can't decide if they were checking on MIB still being captured in the cabin, or if Jacob was still safely protected in it. We need to ask the dog in the painting.

Cameron said...

Just to back track a bit to who built the Lampost. I would say definitely Faraday. Think about the clue given:

Eloise says "a clever fellow". Surely this is a reference to Faraday having gone to Oxford University (a member of a learned society) and then receiving funding from Charles (a student or graduate receiving a fellowship for a period of research)

This seems to fit nicely.

Bigmouth said...

Lostmio: I think you misunderstand me. When I say Jacob "brought" DHARMA to the Island, I mean simply that he showed them how to find it. That's what MIB says Jacob did with the Black Rock, and I see no reason why he couldn't have done the same with DHARMA. Remember the dialogue parallels (MIB: How did they find the Island? Ms. Hawking: This is how they found the Island.). Again, bringing people to the Island is about maneuvering pieces into place for Jacob's final solution, the Omega Point, not an endorsement of the people themselves.

On that note, I don't see why the war with the Others precludes my speculation that Jacob showed DHAMA how to find the Island. If MIB is right, conflict ensues EVERY time Jacob brings someone new to the Island. That's what happened in the case of the U.S. army (brought by Jacob because he needed the Jughead) and Oceanic 815 (brought by Jacob because he needed our Losties to cause the Incident). If anything, the truce, which was apparently reached in 1973 shortly after DHARMA's arrival, suggests that someone intervened on their behalf with the Others.

ozward said...

I'm with Bigmouth...

I don't think Ilana was going to see Jacob in the cabin, but rather MIB.

Neoloki: I didn't just mean that MIB knew where to find Jacob, but that he knew where to find Jacob because Jacob always has and always will live in the statue/shadow of the statue.

I'm intrigued by the idea that "help me" comes from dead Jacob, but the timing doesn't work, no? Flocke kills Jacob after he first visited the cabin (but maybe Jacob's spirit lives on and travels back in time? I, for one, think that would be a weak explanation.)

I wouldn't be surprised if 1. the clever fellow had no additional significance, or 2. it was Jacob himself.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just playing off of ozward's comment about the timing of Jacob's "help me" not working quite right to be his death cry - sort of like "taller, ghost Walt" showing up in 2004 to tell Locke he has work to do and that anachronistic radio broadcast Sayid and Hurley picked up. Rules of time and space might not always work as expected on the Island, especially when 4D beings are involved.

Anyhow, also came across this tidbit from the Missing Pieces mobisodes that might lend additional support to Bigmouth's original premise. From mobisode 6 entitled "Room 23":
Ben arrives to an urgent situation at Room 23. Juliet is there and tells him that he (presumably Walt) has done something again and that everybody is too scared to go in there. Juliet suggests that they could bring him back to Michael, but Ben refuses, saying that Walt is special and that Jacob wanted him there. Juliet brings Ben outside to show what he has done: a group of dead birds lay on the stairwell.

So at the very least the Others believed they were using Room 23 at Jacob's behest.

BTW - I came across this when looking to compare what taller, ghost Walt said to Locke with Christian's statement to Vincent about Jack having work to do in the "So it Begins" mobisode. While I could maybe see MiB using Walt's visage to make sure Locke carried out his plan, it doesn't seem to fit the Jack example, despite the use of the same phrase. Hmmmm...

Also, if, as suspected, Locke was being maniuplated by MiB for quite some time - the ghost Walt appearance and the Horace dream for example - it seems probable that MiB and Widmore are not on the same team. Unless the freighter showing up was part of MiB's con to convince someone to turn the FDW, that is.

My head hurts.

Bigmouth said...

I can get down with the idea of Jacob's 4D ghost transcending spacetime, which is a possibility I've flirted with myself. But why would Jacob need to travel back in time to ask for help? Wouldn't it make more sense to deliver the message in person like he did with Ilana -- something he could have done any time before Locke went to the Cabin? Why, for that matter, didn't Jacob ask for help when he touched Locke after the fall?

Don't misunderstand me -- the notion of Jacob as the voice in the Cabin is far from ridiculous. I thought the same thing as recently as a few months ago. It's just that the more I think about it, the more questions there are without easy answers. By contrast, if one assumes MIB was trapped in the Cabin, that he rather than Jacob was the one waiting for Locke "a long time," things fit together more neatly in my view.

lostmio said...

Bigmouth, thanks for the clarification. I can see Jacob doing the things you say, as part of the intricate tapestry he wove.

MikeNY said...

Good times here...

Big — I conveniently tumbled across the document. From Dark's DVD page:
http://spoilertv.iimmgg.com/image/45c6b94da4d4272e12225fbf9f33e19d

No idea about canonicity...

MikeNY said...

lol tumbled... sorry...

lostmio said...

f/k/a NetProphet said: "So at the very least the Others believed they were using Room 23 at Jacob's behest. "

I don't think there's much doubt that the Others thought just about everything they did was directed by Jacob. The question is ~ did it all come from Jacob?

Hard to tell, what with Ben's track record of lying and manipulating.
And RA's a wild card. Presuming he's loyal to Jacob (and I do), it seems safe to think he was correctly passing on Jacob's orders... except we can't be sure that RA was seeing Jacob in person to get the orders and lists. RA didn't enter the foot. Hence the spec by some that the Others were unknowingly aiding MiB.

It's all murky.

lostmio said...

Mike, lol, we're not just stumbling, we're tumbling and free-falling!
gawd, I'll miss all this, come next summer. My brain will probably shrivel up and blow away, from lack of exercise.

neoloki said...

Mio,

I know I am sure my brain is going to dry up by the end of next year. However, I am sure there will still be many questions.

I have been struggling for days on the Jacob help me idea. So much has been theorized about MIB in the cabin and it all seems to fit, but the picture is still very murky. I mean we really don't have confirmation who Iliana was even looking for at the cabin. I do have a hard time accepting that MIB is the only one who has used and "spoken" to Locke. He his such a key figure that Jacob has to be in there somewhere and that damn cabin is the key.

Thunderstorm said...

Why was Ben going to the Cabin in the first place?

He could have put on a charade for Locke just about anywhere, yet he just happens to choose the cabin where that Dark entity was trapped?

I understand sometimes they just need to move the plot along and perhaps it was out of convenience but it doesn't seem that simple, IMO.

Before I get all speculative and wacky, I wanted to ask and see if there is a more obvious explanation I am missing.

neoloki said...

M simple explanation for that is his knowledge of Horace building the Cabin in the first place. Given that Horace was the one that saw Ben's birth and brought him and Rodger to the Island it is not hard to believe that Horace and Ben were close. We even saw that the one person Ben approached after the purge was Horace and he closed his eyes. That was a sign of affection.
So Ben knew Horace built a creepy cabin in the jungle and thought it would be the perfect place for such theatre.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Thunderstorm and Neoloki:

I don't think it was merely for the purposes of a charade or something that Ben took Locke to the cabin. Ben already had a good idea that Locke was very special -the two of them had discussed the miracle of Locke walking again upon immediately arriving on the Island in contrast to Ben being incapacitated following removal of his tumor. I suspect Ben took him to the cabin as a legitimate test of just how special Locke was.

Don't forget, Ben clearly knew that some entity who didn't like technology was in there. It wasn't just some spooky cabin he happened to know about. He had been there before and knew not to use a flashlight. Ben also later realized that Hurley was special as well when it became clear he had seen the cabin before.

So while Ben at first mocked Locke for not being able to see Jacob (really MiB?) in the chair, he was then amazed and devastated when he found out Locke heard him. I think its clear Ben was jealous of this fact (perhaps he previously heard the inhabitant but had lost the ability - something he hid from the Others) and realized Locke was a threat to his position as leader.

So I think its clear that Ben really thought Jacob was at the cabin all along. He just may have been wrong about who was really there.

neoloki said...

I get what you are saying NetProphet and it makes sense, but one thing I am not so sure of is Ben clearly knowing that an entity was living in the cabin. Ben could have known Jacob does not like technology from Richard, but it's existence in the cabin is very open for debate. Actually, reread the conversation between Ben and Flocke in The Incident when they are sitting in front of the hatch door. Ben says he was pretending. He says he lied and he also says he was surprised when everything starts flying around the room. These statements do not sound like someone who knew that a being was living in the cabin.

Mio

as I was rereading that conversation between Ben and Flocke I read the part were Iliana and Bram come to the cabin. Her first words are, "We're here."
That to me sounds like someone who has arrived at there destination. As to who they were taking the body to is still open for debate, but considering they wouldn't look for Richard there and they were not taking the body to MIB, then it has to be Jacob.

So with all that I am going back to my original idea that yes Jacob used to use the cabin as his home and yes Iliana was taking the body to Jacob at the cabin.

Ochman's fucking Razor, man.

LOL, sorry, Ha ha ha....

Bigmouth said...

What does "we're here" prove?

neoloki said...

That Iliana and Bram's destination was the cabin.

Bigmouth said...

I see. It does seem Jacob told her to go to the Cabin. Also, Bram asks where they go next, and Ilana answers by handing him the tapestry fragment. That implies the Cabin was the only stop set in advance. OK, I'm persuaded.

But the idea that Ilana was planning to show the body to Jacob still strikes me as flawed. Why would Jacob ask Ilana to bring him Locke's body? Doesn't the request itself imply that he already knows Locke will be dead? What more information would the body provide?

IMO, the order only makes sense as a message --i.e., don't trust John Locke -- to someone else who might otherwise be tricked. Someone like Richard, which raises an interesting question. Did Richard live in the Cabin at some point? Is that how Ben came to associate it with Jacob?

Bigmouth said...

PS: Jacob has no problem recognizing fLocke as MIB in the Foot. Again, how does bringing him Locke's body show him what he's up against?

neoloki said...

I agree completely Big. It does seem odd if you take into account that Jacob knew he was going to die. So, many holes, so many theories.
There is that possibility that Richard used the cabin, but The Others are a fairly cliquey and nomadic group. Other than the barracks and the temple they move and stick together, It would be out of character for Richard to live somewhere by himself.

I took a few critical analysis classes in art school and I had a asshole teacher who would only let you use the information provided in the picture or novel, so any assumptions would get you a sub-standard grade. The class pissed me off, but he had a point and some of it stuck with me. I think this is the many reason I have a hard time with idea's like my previous one about Jacob post mortem telling Locke "Help me."

In the end the only resolution on these questions we could get will come in season 6. THREE WEEKS!!

neoloki said...

I understand this is just as unlikely, but the only thing I can think of is Jacob did not know who the person would be that MIB assumed and did not give that information to Iliana. So, she did not know that Jacob was aware of Flocke.

but why take the body in the first place? I know. I don't know.

MikeNY said...

Here's my take:

Ilana's purpose was to juxtapose Locke and fLocke in the presence of Richard, as Big argues. Richard would catch on immediately, as he knows of the MiB's ability.

The cabin was the MiB's home. Hence, it would be a good guess that he would be there.

Richard hangs around the Other's leader. Hence, if fLocke were at the cabin, Richard would be there too. Thus, it's the ideal destination.



Jacob cutoff the foot from the lower-left of his tapestry and then affixed it to the wall with his knife.

Hence, Jacob expected fLocke but not all of the details. He had to alert Ilana to a small change in venue.

Bigmouth said...

Mike: That makes a lot of sense -- well reasoned!

MikeNY said...

lostmio —

Absolutely. It will be the end of an enthralling hobby with great people. Luckily, I get to do this sort of theorizing every day.

neoloki said...

But Iliana was with FLocke on Hydra Island and if Flocke was going to kill Jacob why would he go to the cabin if he was the one living there previously. Flocke knew Jacob wasn't at the cabin thus had to enlist richard's help in locating him. Thus no reason for Richard or Mib or Jacob to be at the cabin.

neoloki said...

I am not trying to be difficult here just come up with answers like everyone else.
The ingest problem is we do not know he knew what when.

neoloki said...

sorry, biggest problem.

MikeNY said...

Neo — That's a great point. As Jacob foreshadowed the location of his death, I think there's little reason to argue he would have expected a confrontation with fLocked at the cabin. I can only guess that Ilana would be able to intervene ahead of time — before they reached the foot.

neoloki said...

well, I am glad you think Jacob was the one who stabbed the picture into the cabin wall. I believe it is a piece from one of his tapestries. As for liana intervening that is also likely or possible. If Jacob told her he was going to be killed she could have hoped to change the detail because of her relationship with him.

MikeNY said...

Indeed, you can see the missing piece in the confrontation scene. Unless, the MiB somehow snuck in there, I think Jacob is the only suspect.

What you said reminded me of fLockes insistence in departing for the statue immediately. Had they not, Ilana's crew would have arrived at the foot well ahead of the Others.

David said...

I'm more of a mind that Jacob asked Ilana only to return to the island and meet up with him. The minutae is left for the Losties/newbies to discover on their own.

There's (from memory) the early beach scene when Ilana and (f)Locke talk, when he talks about eating the tastiest fruit, etc. I think it's very much within the realm of possibility that Ilana and Bram found the Lockebox (pun intended), figured what the hell, things are crazy, let's open this thing up, saw Locke's corpse, then realized, oh shit - this can't be possible, we just talked to this guy. At that point, they knew their mission to meet with Jacob had a new twist, and perhaps being privy to some other island knowledge, they knew it was important to tote that body around with them as evidence.

This all changes, of course, if the Lockebox had been shown with them before their initial fruit eating conversation. I do not remember such but I could certainly be wrong.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Just something to add to the recent discussion -

It seems likely that Ilana and her group had been warned about MiB one of his agents being on Flight 316 without there being any specific identification. Remember, Locke's real body was only discovered in the hold of the airplane after fLocke had left for the main Island. While there was certainly suspicion about Locke before then (mainly on the part of Cesar), it wasn't even clear to them he was on the plane at that point.

Once Ilana found the duplicate body, it is clear that she and her people had a mission: track down the guy calling himself John Locke. Seeing as he was either MiB or at least someone in league with him, they logically headed towards MiB's last known residence. Or something like that.

Neoloki:

I just can't see Ben accidently happening to pick the very cabin where either Jacob or MiB happened to be. There was a reason he went there, and while he may have orginally been putting on a show in anticipation that nothing was really going to happen, he did end up genuinely surprised. But could he have possibly just guessed that using a flashlight in the cabin was not a good thing?

Thunderstorm said...

Sorry guys, returning to my previous question for a moment.

Let's assume that the spot of the cabin in Cabin Fever (where Locke meets CS and Claire) is the original spot where it was built. After all, they got that location from Horace's blueprints.

After Ben summons the monster they head to the cabin. Ben tells Locke "I was following you"..."I thought you knew where it was". This is because Locke led the group (including Ben) to the ash circle early in Season 4 and the cabin was gone. Ben knew that Locke had the same information he did about that location.

So two different spots, one where Locke was taken in TMBTC (non-original location) and one where Locke went per the blueprints in Cabin Fever (original location).

If Ben knows the cabin from being friends with Horace (plausible), then he should know the original spot. The location in Cabin Fever.
But he didn't, maybe he was lying, it's hard to say.

Either way, what's important is that Ben knew the non-original location of the cabin. Maybe he had been there before? Since he told Jacob straight to his face that he had been ignoring him...maybe Ben knew that something ELSE was there? Hard to say.

If this entity communicated telepathically to Locke, then why couldn't he be communicating telepathically to Ben? And since Ben is more than a compulsive liar, it's hard to take his admissions to "Flocke" (in Follow the Leader?) as sincere, that he was pretending and then surprised when stuff happened.

Ben could not have possibly thought Jacob would be there, unless he got a message just like Locke did. When Locke wakes up in Cabin Fever, Ben says "I used to have dreams" Maybe this is how he knew how to find the spot we see in TMBTC.

So, I think Ben knew the non-original location because he was 'summoned' there by a dream message or maybe he had been going there all along, knowing that it wasn't Jacob in that cabin. So probably makes sense that at the end of Season 4, he wasn't lying to Locke. After all, that's why they brought Hurley. He didn't know where it was at that point.

I think it's important to establish the reason Ben went there. Yes, the easiest answer is that the Island told him (or plot convenience) if the "Island" told him, then MiB was luring him there. Makes sense to me.

MikeNY said...

Good points.


In line with it being MiB's cabin yet Ilana learning of fLocke on the small island... Maybe they guessed fLocke would head to the cabin when he took off with Ben. With some foresight, Jacob posted the piece of tapestry.

And yeah, Ilana would presumably know of the location from (presumably) being there before.

Thunderstorm said...

re: same subject
Another thing maybe worth noting... or not.

In a deleted scene on the S5 DVD, Christian is shown using an axe to break into that Dharma registration building. He asks Frank for a flashlight, which to me was odd, referring back to Cabin Fever for a minute.

If that is MiB/Smokey as Christian, then the flashlight/technology stuff from Ben's mouth was pure BS.
Makes sense, if he was just flying blind after having been summoned to that cabin and not finding anything.

If the technology thing is NOT BS, then maybe that particular CS (white shoes? I can't keep track) might be related to Jacob.

Just throwing it out there.

I'm going to have to re-read all of your thoughts on the Ilana/cabin issue and see if I can add anything. Fun stuff guys.

neoloki said...

This is how I see it:

Horace built the cabin, Jacob used the cabin after Horace's death, MIB was imprisoned there later.

Even though Richard never told Ben where Jacob lived that doesn't mean he did not tell Ben about who Jacob is. I am sure Ben found out that Jacob does not like technology from a conversation with Richard. I just can't see Ben knowingly using that cabin as a theatre piece if he knew some being was actually there. That seems to work against his plans to debunk and kill Locke. Why would he even give Locke a chance to be special if he heard the resident?

neoloki said...

Jacob doesn't like technology. MIB we don't know. Ben certainly would not be expecting anybody else in the cabin than Jacob if you want to run with that thinking.

Thunderstorm said...

Basically all I'm trying to establish is the most simple answer for why Ben happens to go to this cabin that is not in it's original location.

The simple reasoning is that he was summoned, he got there and nothing was in there, so he started his charade.

Locke said he heard a voice, Ben is flabbergasted, the flashlight switches on, all hell breaks loose.

Ben knows for sure something else was there.

But you are right, neoloki, got my wires crossed there. It's Jacob who hates technology. So CS with a flashlight and also being MIB/Smoke makes even more sense now.

Thunderstorm said...

That's supposed to read:

Ben knows for sure something else was there, after the shit hits the fan.

Not before.
There's no real reason to believe he thought anything would be there, that I can figure.

One theory I've heard was that Ben followed Richard to try and meet Jacob himself one day. And this led him to the cabin.

neoloki said...

he knew about the cabin from hoarse. why he took Locke there is another question entirely.

neoloki said...

screw spell correct! should say Horace.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Thunderstorm said:

"In a deleted scene on the S5 DVD, Christian is shown using an axe to break into that Dharma registration building. He asks Frank for a flashlight, which to me was odd, referring back to Cabin Fever for a minute.

If that is MiB/Smokey as Christian, then the flashlight/technology stuff from Ben's mouth was pure BS."

Again, it is clear Ben had some idea not to use technology in the cabin before ever taking Locke there. He had certainly been there before and new that something bad would happen if you did - not something he just picked out of the air that by chance happened to be true when Locke turned on his flashlight. But have we considered that it might not really be for the reason that Jacob/MiB "doesn't like technology"? What if keeping the cabin in a pristine, tech free state was part of the charm that kept whoever it was trapped there and unable to communicate clearly? Foe example, maybe MiB somehow tapped into the energy of Locke's flashlight that gave him the energy to cause a ruckus and make his plea for help. Once free from his prison, no reason for any continued aversion.

BTW - I also think this may be in line with an idea I have about the mysterious power sources on the Island being the sources/reserves of Jacob's and MiB's true powers. Thus the Incident and later implosion of the Swan may very well have had something to do with MiB's escape. WHO MOURNS FOR ADONAIS?

neoloki said...

If we go with that idea NetProphet then it was Jacob in the cabin when all hell broke loose on Locke and Ben.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Neoloki said:

"If we go with that idea NetProphet then it was Jacob in the cabin when all hell broke loose on Locke and Ben."

Why?

neoloki said...

because Jacob is the one against technology not MIB.

MikeNY posted it above. Christian used a flashlight.

Bigmouth said...

Jacob didn't seem very phased by technology either when he was buying candy bars and riding in taxis off the Island. It's possible the whole anti-technology thing was a red herring.

Bigmouth said...

Also, Richard recruited Juliet on behalf of Mittelos Biosciences and tried to get Locke to attend a Mittelos science camp.

And let's not forget how Ben phrased the warning to Locke: "Jacob feels the same way about technology as you do." That line takes on new meaning in light of Locke's subsequent association with MIB.

Bigmouth said...

Here's Locke's line about technology: "Because you're cheating! You and your people. [puts down his glass and walks around the room] Communicate with the outside world whenever you want to, you... you come and go as you please... you use electricity and running water and guns... You're a hypocrite! A pharisee. You don't deserve to be on this island. If you had any idea what this place really was... you wouldn't be putting chicken in your refrigerator!"

Again, such sentiments feel more like MIB to me. Part of the corruption he mentioned to Jacob in their chat on the beach.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Neoloki:

Bigmouth pretty much summed it up for me - the Jacob being anti-technology stuff may have just been a red herring all along. Possibly, as I suggested earlier, it was a misinterpreted taboo: while Jacob may have given instructions to keep technology away from the cabin, it doesn't mean he didn't like it, but rather it was maybe part of the way he kept MiB trapped there.

Big also added something that I meant to in my prior post. Jacob clearly had no problem riding in a car or using a vending machine. So, seems to pretty likely the anti-technology might not really apply to him at all. If so, maybe the use of technology was verboten from the cabin for a specific reason such as I suggested.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Also want to add that just because I propose keeping technology away from the cabin helped keep him imprisoned it doesn't mean MiB would be averse to either. In fact, as I stated before, I think he may have needed access to a form of energy to revive himself.

Two mysterious beings. Two sides, one dark, one light. Two mysterious power sources. Two poles on a battery...

f/k/a NetProphet said...

In any event, once he was free, no reason MiB as Christian (assuming it was him) couldn't hold a flashlight.

neoloki said...

To believe Jacob is a luddite because of a comment by Ben is a bit of a stretch. However, his statue home does seem a bit antique, but it doesn't matter because I still don't believe Ben knew anything about that cabin other than it was empty.

There are any number of reasons to believe Jacob used that cabin and a number of reasons to believe that MIB was the last inhabitant, but what it comes down to at this point are guesses.

Ben is a liar. Where he got his information about the cabin or it's inhabitants is also conjecture at this point.

What I think I know is that Iliana was going to the cabin with Locke's body to show Jacob. Why she was doing this is guessed at in comments above.

The purpose of that cabin and the order of it's inhabitant's is a big piece of the puzzle to the game between MIB and Jacob. It will be fun finding out.

19 more days.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Neoloki:

Honestly not trying to beat the topic to death, but I'm not(nor is Bigmouth for that matter) saying Jacob, MiB or anyone else is a luddite! I'm not sure where I'm not being clear on this. I don't think either of them are afraid of or averse to technology, and its quite clear Jacob can easily tolerate and/or employ modern devices as cited from the examples above.

I've suggested a completely different reason why technology may have been forbidden at the cabin. I get that you don't believe Ben knew anything about the place before he took Locke there to act out a little joke on him. But I don't think its plausible that he could have just happened to have improvised the line Bigmouth quoted only to find out moments later there was really a reason not to use the flashlight there.

As you say, we'll hopefully get some answers soon enough. Of course we're all just speculating based on limited info for now -isn't that the point of this forum?

neoloki said...

oh, sorry, yes I know what you were saying. Ben's comment would lead one to believe in Jacob's antagonism against mechanical loom's. LOL! and that was what I was referring to, i.e., the question in general.

And your energy source idea is very interesting. I have dismissed nothing. I guess my comments can come off as abrupt or dismissive, but that is not my intention AT ALL.

As to why Ben told Locke about Jacob's dislike of technology...well..the easy answer would be Richard gave him that piece of information while they discussed Jacob.

Another big question here is about Ben. Is Ben really a human being? Was something fundamental changed in him when Richard took him to the temple? There is Widmore's line, "I know what you are, BOY" This answer could do a u-turn to all of our progress in the question why Ben took Locke to the cabin in the first place.

lostmio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
lostmio said...

I rewatched The Incident twice today, very closely, and can't come to any conclusion about Ilana's intended destination. I'm not even sure the writers knew.

Bigmouth, I'm just about there with you re Jacob bringing Dharma.
The opening scene and dialogue are the key, and what persuades me is that enigmatic line: "It only ends once, everything before that is progress".
In context, the only way to interpret that is ~allrighty then, I'll just keep on bringing folks until they get it right~

MiB prefers the status quo. He's a determinist. Jacob likes the willy-nilliness of free will; he believes it results in progress and change, good things in his mind.

Neither Jacob nor MiB is god or god's chosen. Like Ben said, god doesn't see them. God, like the jury, is still out.

For sure, MiB is the anti-technology guy. I was wrong awhile back when I laid that on Jacob.
In the shorter run, MiB's closed-mindedness and stubborn determinism couldn't compete with Jacob's looser principle, ie trusting in and encouraging humans to rise to their better natures ("all that things that rise must converge").

I wrote a couple more paragraphs but deleted them and here endeth the sermon.

Thunderstorm said...

What if the moving cabin from TMBTC and early Season 4 is a Smoke Cabin? A replica of Horace/Jacob's actual cabin?

And this could explain - perhaps - why we don't see the original cabin, where Horace built it, until CLAIRE broke the ash circle for him and allowed MiB (as CS) inside.

Thunderstorm said...

Following that up:
Ilana would be going to find Jacob at the real cabin. We could ignore the Smoke Cabin seen in TMBTC and TBOTE (when Hurley sees it) from 2004 on.

Claire breaks the ash circle in 2004, the smoke cabin is now useless.

"Somebody else has been using it"
MiB for the last 3 years, 2004-2007.

I'll check in again tomorrow and see if this idea is bunk or not.

lostmio said...

OK, I can't resist.

Jacob is so enamored with the notion that people will always do the right thing that he even projects this onto MiB. MiB openly states his murderous hate for Jacob, and Jacob isn't even rattled, he's all ~yeah, I know~, blithely unconcerned.

That's echoed a century later, with Ben and Jacob. Despite the failure with Dharma, Jacob believes so strongly in the better side of human nature that he truly believes that all he has to do is remind Ben of that principle, and Ben will not use that knife. Even as he's dying, Jacob still believes in the better side of Ben.

Jacob's 'dark' side is his laid-back naivete. Protect young Kate from consequences, let young Sawyer express his anger, distract Jack from his frustration, bless the Kwon union, and they'll all turn out ok.

lukemh said...

can someone explain to me how Claire breaks the ash circle?

what is the ash circle? i thought it was the cabins very ash surrounding the cabin in some kind of time-loop chicken and egg thing ... what came first the cabin or the ash?

sorry im a lost lover, but a theory noob. (although im addicted to reading theories.)

thanks.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Seeing as much of the discussion here has really turned towards who may have been in the cabin, just thought I'd bring up my favorite cryptic clue from TPTB. From Jeff Jensen's 'Lost': Mind-Blowing Scoop From Its Producers dated Feb. 22, 2008:

What's the deal with Jacob's shack? It keeps moving. Then Hurley saw Jack's father rocking in Jacob's chair.

CUSE: You will definitely see more of the cabin and it was very observant that many fans noted the presence of Jack's father inside the cabin. We'll shine a little bit more light on that later this season. This is stuff that is a big part of the show going forward, but in terms of the final five episodes of the season, those are not the kind of questions we'll be answering.

Hurley also saw an eyeball looking back at him. Should we be wondering about the identity of the owner of this eyeball?

LINDELOF: You should be wondering, certainly.

CUSE: One of the definitions of omniscience is to be in more than one place at a time.


While Cuse's definition might not be strictly accurate, I think its clear what he was getting at. Someone has far reaching vision, if not actual presence, so that he could be in the cabin and elsewhere at that same moment. Not only does this reinforce the notion that Jacob and MiB are 4D beings (not enslaved by normal rules of space and time), but it also accordingly leads to the possibility that whoever was "trapped" there was still able to have an eye on things elsewhere. Could be that it was only possible to cripple such a being by restraining a certain aspect/avatar of them, while some other part(s) still roamed free.

Given Christian in the rocking chair in that scene and the look of the "omniscient" eye, my bet would be on MiB being the owner.

lostmio said...

NetProphet, thanks for that, I hadn't seen it.
They said they wouldn't be answering those questions during the last 5 episodes of S5, so there's still hope for S6.

lukemh, your time loop theory is as good as anyone's theory re the ash circle. There's no consensus nor any particularly favored theory on it.

ozward said...

Hey guys,

I'm going to change gears real quick here.

Last night I watched "Man of Science, Man of Faith" again.

When Jack first enters the hatch, he pauses at a break in the wall. It looks like metal bars twisted and sticking out of a wall that had been solidified with cement. He leans in and the key around his neck is pulled towards the opening (as metal does in every scene we see involving electro-magnetism)...

Honestly, to me, it looked like the rubble that fell down the hole Radinsky/Dharma was drilling at the Swan construction site.

Does this give us any more insight into the paradox issues brought up with the incident/H-bomb detonation?

It started me down a path of thinking that the incident was the H-bomb and there will not be a time reboot.

ie, why show the rubble from the incident in the second season if it is later learned that the incident negated the previously seen timeline?

In other other words, we see the incident already happened and 815 still crashes, therefore no re-boot?

Sorry to change the subject and my apologies if this has already been discussed. It was just something that caught my eye on a Season 2 rewatch...

neoloki said...

your right there is no reboot. It is something else entirely with similar results.

Thunderstorm said...

luke, the ash circle was described (vaguely) on the season 3 DVD as:

"a bit of a kind of protection or magic or kind of containment. "

"Christian" would have just talked his daughter into violating the containment. Might be as simple as just breaking the circle by reaching down and moving the ash.

Thus, keeping with the idea I mentioned earlier (Smoke Cabin), the ash circle would have been keeping the Man in Black OUT of the REAL cabin, not in. And when he 'spoke' to Locke, he was inside the Smoke Cabin, which was HIS creation anyway.

We all know that if MIB=Smokey, that Smokey wasn't a prisoner to that cabin in the first place. He was all over the Island.

Greg Tramel said...

goofer dust

lostmio said...

ozward, yes, imo there's no doubt that the MoSMoF scene showed the results of the incident. My working spec is that Jughead caused the incident and everything we saw thereafter in S1-S5.
Jughead does not cause a reboot.

I'll stop there, since this isn't a spoiler thread.

neoloki said...

It is a Schrodinger's Cat situation. Jughead caused The Incident and it didn't. Since this creates a paradox an ALT is created so both can be true.

Greg Tramel said...

and since "Jacob" plays Lucifer on another show i'll through this in

supernatural

Greg Tramel said...

if TPTB said Richard is Ra then they may have meant this Ra and The Others are The Wanderers

Raand Wanderers

Greg Tramel said...

"Ra used the term "wanderers" to describe beings of a higher dimension/density that have chosen to incarnate as human beings and to join the last reaincarnational cycle ( 25,000 or more years) in service to humanity in order to help with the ascension/harvest process."

lukemh said...

Circular cause and consequence!
its a a logical fallacy where the consequence of the phenomenon is claimed to be its root cause.

Lewis Carroll in Through the Looking-Glass, where the White Queen states "Jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, but never jam today". Since every tomorrow becomes eventually today as the future turns into present, and past is gone forever, the result is that poor Alice will never have jam.

MIB wants to break the loop, kill Jacob and end their world. Jacob wants the loop to reach convergence and nirvana. Almost like the chick and the egg, where the egg could have been laid by another animal at the tipping point of the evolutionary cycle, producing the first chick. Jacob is always adding more people until they find THE group that is the tipping point.

lostmio said...

lukemh said "MIB wants to break the loop, kill Jacob and end their world."

MiB wants to save the island.

lukemh said...

Mib wants to stop the attempt of Jacob to continue to push humans to the island to enable them to learn from it and reach convergance with it's powers. Jacob pushed darma, in it's attempt to advance mankinds scientific knowledge and power. They (Jacob and mib) have reached 4d through it, but are stuck alone (maybe with other people), divided from the world. They helped Richard reach it (he came with the ship), but he is also stuck to the island. The others worship the beings, and hope for 4d, although confused between the 2 opposing mens leaderships.

Anyways.

lostmio said...

lukemh, Jacob traveled off-island as early as 1976 and as late as 2007 (or 08?) to visit the O6.

beer said...

this is completely unrelated... but i'm mid-way through season 5 on my lost rewatch, just watching episode '316' now... did anyone else notice that when jack went to his grandfather at the retirement home, and his grandfather asked about kate... he described her as 'that pretty girl.. the one with all the freckles'.

so who the hell is his grandfather, really???

neoloki said...

beer

I am not sure what your question is. I am sure that jack introduced Kate to his Grandpa at some point during there relationship.
Although, I get this weird feeling that Jack's granddad has been to the Island somewhere in time.

neoloki said...

Wacky idea for the day...

Frank Lapidus is actually Jacob in Lost's last supper version 3.

link
http://img8.hostingpics.net/pics/678636supper03.jpg

Greg Tramel said...

like my broken record has been saying all along, i think the reason Jacob chose to touch the main characters destined for the original flight 815 was because their relatives had spent time on the island

so Neoloki, i suppose Frank WAS a suitable candidate

neoloki said...

LOL! Sure Greg, NOW that Shaggy is Jacob he can just go Rambo on MIB. Ha ha ha...

All kidding aside, I would rather someone like Frank take the role of Jacob rather than Jack or Locke.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, a lot of us are on Team Frank

Bigmouth said...

Thunder: I love the notion that Ben discovered the Cabin via a dream vision from MIB. Fits perfectly with the precedent established by Locke's dream. But I just don't get the idea of two Cabins, which reminds me of complicated speculations that MIB was impersonating Jacob in the off-Island scenes. I'm also a little unsure about your description of the sequence of visits. Ben leads Locke to the Cabin. Hurley sees the Cabin outside the circle. Locke returns to the same location Ben showed him, but the Cabin is gone. After Ben summons Smokey, they head for the Cabin, with Locke following Ben, and Ben following Hurley. Confusion ensues until Locke has his dream, which leads them back to the Cabin's original location in the circle. It all makes perfect sense with one Cabin that moves temporarily.

Net: That's a really interesting suggestion that the proscription against technology was actually to help keep MIB trapped therein. I also agree 100% that whoever was trapped in the Cabin was able to keep an eye on things elsewhere. Remember how Locke originally described Smokey? The "eye" of the Island. Until MIB merged with Smokey, I think he used his pet as eyes and ears. That's why Ben came under MIB's influence after being exposed to Smokey in the Temple.

luke: Actually, circular logic is the only logic that applies where causal loops are concerned. Astrophysicist J. Richard Gott believes the universe was created by such a time loop -- you can read more here. But I agree 100% that the Others are confused over who's really in charge of them, Jacob or MIB. That actually relates to why Claire broke the ash circle. Basically MIB escaped from the Cabin when it moved outside the circle. But after the Cabin moved back inside the circle, MIB needed someone to break the circle so he could get back inside to pretend to speak for Jacob. So he impersonated Claire's father to get her to do the deed -- you can read more here.

Neo: I'm honestly surprised people make so much of Widmore's comment. Read in context, it seems obvious what he meant: I know you're usurper and a murderer. The line I'm much more interested -- and optimistic -- we'll see explained is Bram's about Frank being a "candidate." The way they emphasized it makes me think they'll pay it off, though I personally hope they don't try to resurrect Jacob that way. It's plausible but strikes me as a bit of a cheat...

Bigmouth said...

Lostmio: I personally would use the word "fate," but "determinism" works well, too. MIB wants Jacob to let us succumb to the Valenzetti's prophecy. They can actually take this a couple of ways, depending on how sympathetic the writers want MIB to be. For example, we may learn MIB objects to Jacob's meddling on some kind of principled basis like a Star Trek prime directive against affecting less advanced species.

My suspicion, however, is that the Island itself is actually the root cause of our problems. It landed here long ago from the future or the stars, putting us on course for extinction. Jacob feels responsible and believes only the Island itself can save us. MIB may once have agreed but now thinks such efforts are futile, and just wants to return from whence they came. Jacob knows he can't save us with MIB opposing him, so his plan for the Omega Point involves both their deaths. In that regard, I think Jacob WANTED Ben to stab him. I fully believe the former planned to die in service of the Omega Point.

ozward: Good catch! I think most of us agree Miles was basically correct that detonation of the bomb was always part of the Incident. Check out It's a Wonderful LOST for my take on the reset.

beer: My take on Ray is pretty boring -- i.e., he's exactly who we've been told he was. But I know others vehemently disagree, so I'll let them tackle that one.

Greg: Very interesting re the Lost Supper! But see my comments above to Neoloki -- I really hope they don't try to resurrect Jacob using Frank. I would prefer a scene where Hurley speaks to Jacob's ghost and draws the analogy to Obi-Wan Kenobi in Empire Strikes Back.

neoloki said...

Yeah, I generally prefer the simplest answers in a case such as Widmore's comment on Ben. Interest comment by Emerson though that Ben is "pre-redeemed". I am thinking this has something to do with Ben's connection with Smokie or maybe in just how he was healed in the Temple as a child.

As far as the "candidate" goes, if we take the idea that Jacob cannot be "killed" in a spiritual form, only physical than I personally would have to choose Jacob taking over someone else's body because it not only create's a relationship with MIB as a being but also the precedent has already been laid out.

Bigmouth said...

Like I said, Jacob coming back as Frank seems possible, but what's the point? Why plan to die if you're just going to resume corporeal form? And what's the point of MIB convincing someone to kill Jacob if he can just come back in another form?

neoloki said...

good point about why MIB would bother to kill Jacob in the first place.

neoloki said...

sorry about my sloppy writing...should say why would MIB bother...

pr649 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

I guess all that would depend on MIB not knowing that Jacob could be reformed, or that MIB would not recognize Jacob's essense in another's body. Which isn't very likely, and I will call shenanigans if that happens.

I guess that it's possible that MIB might not know that Jacob had planned with Alana's group to have someone's body ready for taking over if it happened before they got there, but I dunno.

neoloki said...

To follow up on a Candidate:

It would seem that Jacob, if he could use the form of another human being, would ned help doing this and it wouldn't be as easy as Jacob just choosing and being. He would need the help of an outside source to arrange the process and also someone alive who is willing to give up there life.
Remember too MIB want's to "take care of" the Ajira survivors. This would thwart Jacob from assuming another body and be doomed to the nether world of the Island, bodiless and powerless.
Whispers maybe?

Bigmouth said...

I just had a brainstorm. Charles and Ellie were supposed to be MIB and Jacob's replacements. But something went terribly wrong, so Aaron and Ji-Yeon are required.

Greg Tramel said...

BIG, I DIG IT!

Aaron and Ji-Yeon are going to have to pick up the slack where Charles and Ellie failed

pr649 said...

Oh, man, put a smile or a J/K somewhere please, otherwise someone could think you really meant it...

Bigmouth said...

pr649: What?

pr649 said...

About the two kids saving the day.
It sounded like a joke to me...and I add I think it would be worst choice ever.

Bigmouth said...

pr649: I'd prepare yourself for your worst-case scenario because I've predicted many times that the show ends with a wedding between Aaron and Ji-Yeon before 2031.

PS: Feel free to disagree vigorously, but dismissing ideas as a joke is not acceptable on this blog.

pr649 said...

Oh, sorry mate and sorry to other bloggers, I didn't mean to offend anyone. This is my favorite blog about Lost and you guys are awesome I would never do that!

eheh, by the way It was just my way of strongly disagreeing with you, but I'll look for a different way to express myself next time of course.

Bigmouth said...

No harm done. If you're not a fan of Aaron and Ji-Yeon taking Charles and Ellie's places, how do you anticipate them paying off the children? I think it would be kind of disappointing if they simply disappeared from the story with no further mention at all.

Greg Tramel said...

i can't envision Aaron and Ji-Yeon not being part of the endgame

as Big wrote before Aaron conceived on Earth but born on Island and Ji-Yeon conceived on Island but born on Earth likely leads to a union towards reaching the Omega Point or the end of world as we know it or something else or nothing

pr649 said...

Yeah Big, I am definitely not a fan of the Aaron - Ji-Yeon couple, but of course your point makes sense.

I have not a personal theory and
about Aaron , my point is more like:
5 seasons of John Locke and Jack, and all of a sudden the hero is Aaron?
That doesn't make much sense to me, unless Aaron is already one of them or he is already there (but don't ask me how , who , when or why about it).

I hope you understand what I mean.

Bigmouth said...

pr649: Oh, I don't mean Aaron and Ji_Yeon will somehow save the day. I doubt they'll figure directly in the resolution of the storyline involving these characters. What I have in mind is an ambiguous flash forward at the end of the show to Aaron and Ji-Yeon as adults getting married and/or on the Island. I could see the last shot being the two of them sitting on the beach like Jacob and MIB...LOST.

Bigmouth said...

What if Ilana and Co. went to the Cabin because their mission was to break the circle, releasing MIB? When Ilana met fLocke and found the corpse, she began to suspect that MIB had already escaped. So she brought the body along to show Richard what he was up against.

BoMac said...

Hi Guys,

Love the blog and it's part of my daily reading routine. I've posted a couple of times in the past.

I thought you'd find this funny, just like I did. I think it's hilarious. I'm unapologetic in my theorizing with fans and non-fans alike. ;)


http://www.theonion.com/content/video/final_season_of_lost_promises_to?utm_source=videoembed

lostmio said...

BoMac, that is HILARIOUS!