Wednesday, August 26, 2009

Cabin Fever Relapse...

Are you all everybody ready to get a little whackadoo?



Since the Season 5 finale, I've wondered why Ilana's team of chosen ones brought Locke's body to the Cabin. Why didn't they proceed directly to the Foot, where the "shadow of the statue" riddle suggests Jacob can be found? And why did the corporeal Jacob need Locke's body in the first place? These questions had me stumped, until I reconsidered a possibility that several of you raised after the finale. What if "Jacob's Cabin" actually belonged to the Man in Black?



After the Man Behind the Curtain, I guessed that Jacob's ghost was imprisoned in the Cabin. This seems wrong now that we've seen him moving around freely off the Island. But whoever lived there clearly needed a body, so what about the Man in Black? He hasn't taken that form since his talk on the beach with Jacob. And the ghost in the chair sure resembles Silas Adams, a character from Deadwood played by Titus Welliver, the actor who also plays the Man in Black.



So why were Ilana and Co. bringing a body to the Man in Black? It's possible they're his pawns, but recall my speculation in Three Black Swans that Jacob wanted the Man in Black to find his Loophole. I think Jacob tapped Ilana to lead the dangerous mission of hand delivering the corpse in a box to help the Man in Black escape. When she found the ash circle broken and the Cabin empty, she correctly surmised that the Man in Black had already found an exit.



I believe the Man in Black escaped by temporarily possessing his faithful dog Cerberus. Their master-pet relationship is symbolized by Cerberus's canine name, the dog painting in the Cabin, and (ironically) Zombie Christian commanding Vincent the dog to wake up Jack. The relief carving of dog-headed Anubis feeding the smoke monster (yet another ironic reference to their relationship) suggests the Man in Black uses dead souls as Scooby Snacks.



Master and pet were reunited the same night Hurley stumbled upon the Cabin. The two figures he spied therein were Cerberus and the Man in Black. Somehow, maybe even with Jacob's help, the Cabin moved outside the ash circle, which previously kept Cerberus at bay like the sonic fence around the Barracks. The Man in Black then possessed Cerberus and walked out of the Cabin as Zombie Christian. The change in Christian's clothing symbolizes this possession.



Once the Cabin moved back inside the circle, however, the Man in Black was locked out by his union with Ceberus. Claire was his literal and figurative key to reentry. The Man in Black used her to break the circle so he could get back into the Cabin and claim to speak for Jacob when Locke sought directions in Cabin Fever, thereby initiating the Loophole. Claire eventually realized the truth and resisted her captor, making the mess that Ilana finds at the Cabin.



I suspect Jon G is correct that the ash circle is actually the remains of the statue of Taweret. It was destroyed some time after the Black Rock's arrival, probably by dynamite from the ship's hold. The same magic that kept Cerberus out of the Foot also prevented it from entering the Cabin. I'm guessing this will all be shown in a flashback that also reveals Richard Alpert killed the Man in Black, perhaps in the same explosion that destroyed the statue.



Richard's longevity wasn't so much a reward as a sign of Jacob's trust. He became a permanent firewall between Jacob and the Others. Remember how the Tapestry seemed to surprise Ben? That's because it was his first time inside the Foot -- and for good reason. Ben's loss of "innocence" to Cerberus as a child connected him with the Man in Black, who became privy to everything Ben knew. No wonder Jacob never spoke directly with Ben.



For decades, Jacob communicated with his people solely through lists. And that raises one last whackadoo speculation for you all everybody to consider. Remember how Other Tom mentioned that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list? Mikhail said something similar about Kate and Sayid. Based on the foregoing, I believe the omissions were deliberate. Jacob wanted to keep their identities a secret from his nemesis until the last possible moment.

UPDATE: August 31, 2009

Many of you were understandably skeptical that Jacob chose Ilana to bring the Man in Black a body. And you're right that it's more likely she was -- as she says -- bringing the corpse "to show it to somebody" -- presumably Richard -- "so they'll know what they're up against." But Ilana and Bram also discussed the possibility of Frank being a "candidate." I think it's still possible, albeit less likely, that Lapidus and Locke were both potential "candidates" for the Man in Black to inhabit.

I can imagine Jacob telling Ilana: "You're my insurance policy. I'm planning to let the Man in Black escape to help facilitate his Loophole. But there's a very good chance fate will frustrate my plans. So I need you to bring a body to the Cabin in case my gambit fails." When Ilana saw Locke both alive and dead, she suspected that the Man in Black had already reincarnated himself. But she brought Locke (and Lapidus) to the Cabin just to be sure, before taking his body to Richard.

That brings me to another excellent question that several of you raised: how did Ben come to erroneously associate the Cabin with Jacob? I think the simplest answer is that Richard unwittingly misled him. If Alpert killed the Man in Black, he probably helped imprison the latter in the Cabin as well. Jacob may occasionally have needed to communicate with his nemesis and used Richard as a message bearer. Maybe Ben followed Alpert during one such trip to the Cabin.

But if you really want to follow me down the whackadoo well, consider the possibility that Richard deliberately deceived Ben. All it would take to arouse the latter's curiosity would be a warning to stay away from Jacob's forbidden Cabin of mysteries. Particularly for a little boy, the fascination would no doubt prove irresistible. I could even see Jacob ordering Richard to encourage Ben's relationship with the Man in Black to facilitate the Loophole.

Nor would it surprise me if the Others turned out to be pawns in Jacob's long con of the Man in Black as well. Richard equates Ben's loss of "his innocence" with becoming "one of us," implying the Others are all connected to some degree with Cerberus. So, what if the Others were always just a diversion to distract the Man in Black from Jacob's real game, which involves off-Island pieces like Ilana and Jack? Perhaps those primitive costumes and that decoy village are really metaphors for the Others themselves...

318 comments:

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Greg Tramel said...

since The Temple is not on the blast door map i'm gonna go out on a limb and say DI did not know about The Temple

neoloki said...

Greg

I am just really not getting the Richard MIB connection plus addled and weight on shoulders thing. Would you mind listing some examples at least the MIB part since we briefly discussed how you saw Richard as addled.

I am right with you about The Temple. It was never discovered by Dharma.

It will be or could be interesting what we might learn from "mysteries of the Universe" show on the DI. I am going out on a limb and say the only reference we will ever get again to Henry Gale (the real one) will be here and that HG is a private investigator working for a family who lost there child. They hired HG because someone has evidence she joined the DI.

Greg Tramel said...

it seems it's one dilemma after another for Richard, it seems like he always has fires to put out and his job is a logistic nightmare

for example he new something was not quite right with Flocke but since Locke is the leader he has to follow the Others protocol but maybe he could have just taken Flocke to the cabin like i assume he did to Ben when he was The Others leader

now i suppose you could say everything Richard has done was the strict following of Jacob's orders but i don't think it is quite that cut and dry and i think he has to improvise and make rash decisions all the time

Capcom said...

I get a similar feeling too Greg, and that he is another person who has to make decisions for his people and the island with a leap of faith, as is often spoken of on Lost.

Phishhead said...

Hmmm. . . it would be surprising to me if DI didn't know about the Temple - at least some of them. They seemed have explored the island pretty thoroughly and it seems like the Temple is likely fairly large and pretty obvious. . . But, you never know, Ben had to draw a map for Rousseau and she had also been all over the island. . . .

Phishhead said...

Sorry, but wait, Rousseau had been to the Temple when she was younger. . . .scratch that. . .

Capcom said...

I guess that the big question is, did Radzinsky know about it, since he made the BDM? There's a possiblilty that he did, especially if anyone at the top of the DI found it, and it was info for Secret Circle only, which Rad was privy too. On the other hand, if he was stuck in the Swan, that could have been one of the points that he could reach withing the 108 minute travel time (back and forth), and it seems as if he did do some investigating as per the existance of the BDM. And he might have been the only one who found it (doubtful?). I really hope that we get some closure on the BDM as to why he made felt the need to investigate and record his findings, especially in invisible "ink". And maybe even why he blew his head off.

Capcom said...

Although, witnessing his high strung personality, I think that we can guess why. :o)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Since we now know that the need for a timer goes back to 1977 (as opposed to mentions of a different type of incident on the BDM in 1985), I've been trying to think of WHY Radzinsky made the map as he did, if he was in this big Circle of Trust thing. One might say that he spent so much time in the Swan after The Incident, that he had to find out for himself what else was on the Island DI-wise. I can't see him being the sole guy staying there since 77, but maybe more than a fair amount of time. Yet it seems that Inman was shown how to add to the BDM by R., and Inman didn't arrive until after 1992 (going by the Gulf War, not the Purge). So in that respect, it makes me think that Radzinsky started the map in the 90s, because he knew he'd commit suicide (IF that is what happened, right?) and maybe thought Inman was the first decent person to take over as map maker. I've always thought Inman lied to Desmond about quite a few things, so anything re: when that map might have been worked on and for how long is up in the air.

I don't think the DI knew of the Temple, per se, or that R. put it on the map. The DI might have known of the wall, but maybe that scene with Paul & Amy (even if Amy was creepy) on their picnic and the Others grabbing them, maybe they ventured too far from the sonic fence and too close to the temple wall. The reason I think that the Temple wasn't on the BDM is because R. would only post DI-related details, he was too much into how important their work was. The closest he would have got was maybe acknowledging the smoke monster by putting the Cerberus Vent locations on the BDM.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Remember, all we have to go on re: the bloodstain on the ceiling is what Inman told Desmond, right?

3D said...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

"everyone but me (it seems hates the Nikki/Paulo episode, but I thought it covered so much Island stuff in 42 minutes."

I don't know of many people who hated that episode. Most people I talked to loved it. They hated the characters, but the way in which they were killed off was fantastic.


The Pearl, Ben & Juliet, dead characters. A decent writer could pull off a -centric episode of Richard or someone else with Claire in one or two scenes that way, alive or dead. Almost impossible with the babies, of course. But a reminder they EXIST would be kinda nice.

@Greg, well, I guess that's a good sign. The Buffy books are all work-for-hire, $1500 flat, no royalties ever. Yet several of my friends still write them, I guess they sell in the stores.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@3D, Greg, and Capcom, well I guess I'm in good standing. The people I know personally who watch the show all disliked that episode, every one of them. A few said it kept the story from moving along. At that point I started chewing glass. Glad to know I'm not nuts, though I will say Nikki could have been a better Kate, seeing as how similar they were to each other. The only thing Paulo was good for was flushing the Pearl toilet right before Patchy showed on the screen.

3D, I know you goofed on adding part of my past post, but I'm glad you did. It reminded me to write this, re: how to mention the characters as needed. Instead of Jack going all Kenny G to Sawyer, he could have said, the plane never crashes, we land safely in LA, [something about various characters], and Claire could have Aaron in a hospital instead of in a jungle. Wouldn't take more than a minute for Jack to say that, instead of the melodramatic "I lost her" crap.

Thunderstorm said...

Greg, I believe that the dude on the beach in the Incident dressed in black...is a 'real human' that was killed and that body is now occupied by some 'avatar' of Dark (if the conflict analogy is Light vs Dark)

And that dude probably has a name, even though it's not THAT dude anymore. Just as Jacob has a name.

Only we have to wait 'til next season to find out it's the 'avatar' of Light in Jacob Shephard's body. ;)

I just took a glance and counted at least 5 typos/spelling errors on that Oceanic website. And it's created on Freewebs, safe to say it's fake, I think. The other one...all you have to do is click 'legal' and it tells you that it's not affiliated with anything official. That said, a couple of those pictures on that blog look pretty cool.

I am disappointed they couldn't give us a puzzle ARG. Flash Forward got a pretty cool ARG...I guess the other stuff is alright but I am not a fan of marketing in general.

Greg Tramel said...

since i won't be buying any of the ARG posters i think i will try to blow this up and print it off my door

Losties

Greg Tramel said...

Thunderstorm, ah! i see what you mean, i suppose we may also say Jacob was at one time just a man that was killed and a island avatar or spirit(for lack of a better term) took over his body

yeah, there is not much to this so called ARG (marketing), i was disappointed the van print didn't have a public event, i thought the public events were slightly interesting

Greg Tramel said...

i agree with wayne that DI probably only knew about the temple wall but i also have a hunch nobody can just waltz right into the Temple, only the special people can enter

Capcom said...

I find it difficult to believe everything that Kelvin told Des as well Wayne. He was CIA after all. Not that I'm one of those CIA haters, they just know how to keep what's secret, secret. All that espionage-y stuff, dontcha know, heheh.

I'd guess that Rad was one of the few who managed to survive the Purge, and ended up being one of the ones to man the Swan controls after that. Maybe that's why the Purge didn't kill him, because he was already underground and safe from the gas. And then that brings up the whole quarantine/vaccine business, ugh.

I ended up disliking Nikki right off because about the first thing out of her mouth was her yelling at Hurley for not relaying what he saw soon enough. Then when she turned out to be a jerk, her hypocrisy became really glaring. then Sawyer's comment said it all, haha.

Right Thunderstorm, I didn't see any ABC indications for that OA site either. But it's a pretty neat site.

That's a great poster isn't it Greg? But I can't figure out who half of those hyper-stylized characters are, I'll have to take some time to really figure out the back rows.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Thunderstorm, if there was a fight of some sort, where Richard killed someone, it just adds to MIB telling Jacob how they come and they fight, etc. Something happened once the BR arrived, but an interesting reveal would be to see Richard on Island watching the BR arrive. If there were Others back in 1800s, Richard could have led them. He and Jacob always kept their distance.

@Capcom, oh, I didn't care for either character much, but Nikki and Kate had parallels. They had to shove so much into one episode and so Nikki was bad to almost everyone right away, but I could easily see Kate flirting wit Doc Arzt to get clues to where her case might be. Just in a different flirty way. As opposed to looks, in that Eli Roth should have been Spock in STAR TREK instead of Mr. One-Note from HEROES.

@Greg and Thunderstorm, cool links and it always amazes me that someone with the know-how to create a website cannot proofread or get a second person to do so. That Oceanic site looks cool, though. I wonder if the fake sites generate ad revenue in any way?

TS, I've learned to call marketing 'branding' over the last two years, because of projects I've been involved with involving advertising in Toronto. I never really thought of how much I see on a daily basis is branding, pure and simple. Sounds more like avarice than advertising, that word.

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, it's fairly easy to generate google ad money like Lost Tidbits does so i'm sure somebody could create a fan based sorta ARGlike thing and have some ad money trickle in

Lost Tidbits

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, i'm leaning towards for sure there were Hostiles/Others before Black Rock(1800s)

Greg Tramel said...

it very well could be be that Jacob and MiB were Hostile/Others that somehow were killed and the island's avatars took over there bodies

but i think what Big is saying that when Richard (after he arrived on Black Rock)killed MiB and with the assistance of Jacob trapped the avatar in the cabin before he could take over a body

i think i've mentioned before i'm leaning towards there were actually Egyptians on the island but it could be just mystery school initiates going gaga over Egyptian symbolism as they do which i speculate stems from a belief in ancient astronaut theories

Greg Tramel said...

Howling Man is online here, sounds like i REALLY NEED to watch it

Howling Man

Greg Tramel said...

sorry, i may have misstated, "I" think Richard arrived on island via Black Rock, i don't remember if Big thinks the same

the reason i think so is because i think Richard told Widmore he arrived to the island via Black Rock and i think Richard wrote the journal while on Black Rock (but it is just a hunch, i don't have definitive proof)

1 question though is how did the BR journal get back to earth?

Thunderstorm said...

I think we are 'supposed' to think Richard is from the Black Rock...for one Richard seems to be 'all too comfortable' with the 'Hidden Jacob' both in 1954 and present day.

And in that BR scene (if it IS the Black Rock) Jacob is just lounging on the beach with MIB.

This and the 'ship in the bottle' was maybe a somewhat subtle clue.

Right, Wayne.
"Branding" the franchise...that's cool by me and I am not anti-capitalism in the least. I just think with LOST, the 'viral' nature of this sort of thing, seems to be for people who've already followed them down the rabbit hole.

So to go viral...seems to me to be an excellent way to promote something to do new eyes and ears, which I am totally fine with. But in this case, WHO are the new eyes and ears?

Anyways, it's no big thing.

Greg, nice Howling Man find!!!!
Too much football on right now but eventually...I'll watch it.

Neoloki, isn't there a Dharma logo on the Temple map that Ben drew?

I personally think there is some 'technology' at the Temple, which may be another reason they (the DI) were brought there. Remember the talk about 'meteorology'? wasn't that on one of the orientation vids? I'm thinking 'weather modification'

Wayne, I thought Expose was a good story but it's weakest point was only that it centered on two characters most people didn't care about...and retrospectively, we know the flashback only served that one single plot. But otherwise, it had all kinds of good stuff in it, on-Island.

I generally like most of the episodes that get picked on, but there are 3 or 4 that I think are well below LOST-par. Namely, Fire + Water, Hearts and Minds, Glass Ballerina, Adrift.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg, I love ya, man, but you work in a library. Read "The Howling Man", gah. Just kidding, of course. I have much more time for reading on the bus & train as I can't drive due to the c.p. I wish there was a way Beaumont's work could have been used in LOST, but aside from "Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge", all the books were novels. At least we saw VALIS. Watch TZ then read, and see the subtleties in both. Off-topic, I kinda like OUTER LIMITS a bit more than TZ, though both hold my attention, partly because I dig the B&W.

The BR journal made it back to the US...well, somehow. I'm sure its stated, but in my head, the journal provided the DI with a way to both create the Lamp Post and then to get to the Island. Maybe Magnus Hanso got himself privy to certain info and wrote it down.

Greg, neoloki, and Thunderstorm, I think it is a red herring to place Richard on the BR, but I have no real clue (as do we all) about anyone living prior to the 1800s. He might very well have been first mate to Hanso, but they just might surprise us with Jacob retiring to his plinth and letting Richard greet the BRers.

Since there is so much mention of time travel in the mind (Desmond, Eloise the rat, etc.), I've wondered if MIB might himself be only visible to Jacob (referring to the mind, not time travel). A random thought.

@Thunderstorm, LOST does provide many avenues to hook new viewers, even now (I can name 2 people, and at S5, I think that in itself says something.) But I HATED the work I did in regards to what I mentioned earlier. I'm neutral in my views, but I was was quite pleased to see AOL settle a lawsuit because they had tiny ads on the bottom of every email whether you wanted to send them or not. I get free AOL and if I emailed any of you all, there'd be an attachment on the bottom for anything from car sales to free credit reports. Putting it in perspective to the show, I think MIB would be very pleased with AOL. He doesn't want Jacob's progress, he wants to see all of us fight over every little thing. And ultimately let our society break down and crumble.

A few people have mentioned the meteorlogical aspect before. On the BDM it mentions a place where there are all these Dharmatel cables and I've always assumed it was there, though I'd love to know the name of it. Unless the Tempest was the place, which is doubtful.

Capcom said...

I like the RA/BR theories, they make sense to me. I actually guffawed when RA was working on that boat in a bottle. If that wasn't a blatant clue, it was a blatant red-herring, either way pretty funny.

I used to like TZ and Outer Limits equally, but now I think that TZ was a lot tighter in the telling then OL which often drags a bit. And TZ seemed much more psychologically shocking to my sensibilities as a kid as far as the morals to the stories (e.g. man's inhumanity to man or how we often fool ourselves via vanity). And I was totally convinced that if I dove fast enough into a swimming pool that I would resurface somewhere else in the universe (dumb kid I was). But I still watch them both any time they're on.

Tx for the Howling Man link Greg. Good stuff.

I'd still like to think that the DI or Hostiles were creating some weather situations around the island with the meteorological equipment, say, to hide the island when they weren't moving it around.

lostmio said...

Thunderstorm, Glass Ballerina was important because if for no other reason it signed, sealed, and delivered Sun's duplicitous nature. And reminded us that a Paik is a Paik.
Besides, I love all things Sun.

I loved Fire & Water (and all things Charlie), but I agree with you re Hearts & Minds and Adrift, both were a total waste of screentime.

Expose rocked! and it redeemed Nikki and Paulo. Not in the traditional redemption sense. More like ~ok, I can now live with the memory of these two characters~. TPTB pulled off a masterful recovery. I love to rewatch that episode..

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@lostmio, Expose is the episode I've rewatched more than most others (having caught it on G4 twice, as well), and I always see it as a lost opportunity of a way to tell a 42 minute episode. A few years back, there was talk of a Vincent-centric episode, as he was always roaming the jungle.

Fire & Water had its moments (including that creepy shot in Charlie's dream where you can only see the Beechcraft if you had HD, the one where Claire is the Madonna). And I did enjoy Ballerina. But I could never see the latter two again and not miss anything.

The character arcs are fascinating in that way, the later Sun-centric episodes were continually more surprising, whereas we didn't even need Hearts & Minds. We knew enough about Boone & Shannon. I got more from their quick scene in Expose than I did from their entire episode...

Capcom said...

Heheh, "A Paik is a Paik is a Paik," - Gertrude Stein. :o)

I liked Fire and Water, but I still do not have any idea what those dreams and the obsession with baptism were supposed to mean. and perhaps TPTB could have spent a little less time on Charlie's past and more on the island. It was interesting seeing Battersea Power Station (albeit without the pig) though.

For some reason I agree, the less of Boone and Shannon backstory the better. :-\

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I think this is where S1 dragged, particularly with F&W, as it was sandwiched by reruns (I remember because I was writing the glossary then). Its funny that back then they were making the non-HD people outcasts, now they intend the non-BluRay people to not join the group with that boxed DVD set. Bums.

The saving grace on H&M was that we at least got the flashbacks of two characters, as with Jin & Sun. I think the reason Sun's flashbacks got better later were because they concentrated on HER and not her and Jin.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

My friend Greg gave me back most the the S5 VHSs I loaned him back in June, so I rewatched the first episode last night, even though I know it by heart, just about. Thinking on the time jumps, can it be that the reason the jumps sent them to different times of importance as the record skipped had to do with memory? Sawyer and Juliet knew Desmond and had been aware of the Swan's back entrance. They knew Danielle, even Jin did. The future jumps, involving the outrigger, well, until the point where they were shot at from the other outrigger, it wasn't any sort of important moment until the shots were fired. Claire's birth, seeing the light from the Hatch, same same. Until Locke set the wheel straight, and then the flashes to 74, 77, and 07 become a different matter. Thinking on it, I'll bet Ajira went back in time to the moment that Locke appeared in Tunisia. Dead Locke on the Island at the exact time Live Locke was guaranteed to be off the Island.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

By the way, Capcom, what the heck is Battersea Power Station?

Capcom said...

Yeah, da bums. :-(

Battersea Power Station is the famous set of smokestacks on the Pink Floyd album with the flying pig. They were going to be torn down, but there was such an uprising of locals and fans that the site was saved and made a national monument or something. So it's neat that it was shown on Lost, and also that it had Widmore's name on it somewhere I think, I forget where. Don't know if anyone has investigated if TPTB were trying to make some specific link to a Pink Floyd reference in that ep, like they do with everything else, e.g. books.

Speaking of books, Wayne you must be aware that there is one official ABC Lost bookclub that reads the books mentioned on Lost, and 2 big fan generated ones, right? That's good for book reading! :-)

Capcom said...

Battersea

Phishhead said...

Lost humor:

I was just watching "One of Us" from Season 3. In one scene Juliet is saying goodbye to her sister Rachel and is having second thoughts about leaving. The final words from Rachel to Juliet: "Don't blow it."

Hah! TPTB are funny. Also gives credence to the idea that most major plot lines were in place by then.

Capcom said...

Hey Sickies, happy holiday, for those in countries that have one today!

FYI, the third "Mysteries" film has been released: link

This one is really getting into what we learned about the creepy DHARMA of TLE, which is nice since we didn't think we'd get much more about them at this point.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, all. Thx on the Battersea thing, Capcom. Only hidden msg I might think of is the old "if pigs fly" adage, or however it goes.

Phishhead, nice find on the line, there. Seriously, so so much of LOST is foreshadowed in lines of dialogue, places, even the way people look at each other. And, of course, drawings and the like. "White Rabbit" is the best early example. Feed your head.

Question to all: why does Richard Alpert speak English? Yes, Faraday's group in JUGHEAD were English-speaking, but what's with the Latin? Did the BRers bring the language with them? (I'm on the side of the fence that Richard was NOT on the Black Rock.) I never gave it any thought until watching Jughead over dinner. All of the Others either sound English or American, or am I being too obtuse?

neoloki said...

VHS? Whats that? LOL!

Capcom said...

The new poster looks great. Wish that I could afford another one.

http://icangetyoupeanutbutter.com/dcpb/IV

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I love Tan's art, but they really are trying too hard to make these things too busy, you know? The Locke poster is the best for its simplicity, this one looks like a bad movie poster. Sorry, Capcom, but I'd have to give this poster a no, too. And the Dharma van was dumb, it wasn't even blue.

Unless there are clues to be found, which is doubtful. I'll buy the Locke one when I can, but in the way of comic artists like Tan, I'd look at the work of Cliff Chang or Gene Ha.

neoloki, you will be old one day, ha ha. I am thinking about getting a DVR tho.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

And no, 40 is NOT old. Do you want to be sent to your room?

Capcom said...

I agree about posters #1 & 3, Wayne. Too busy for my taste. But this one seemed like a good balance for me. I normally don't care for floating images (or Kate, haha) but it's a collage after all, and if I hadn't bought the Locke poster I might have gone for this one. I wouldn't complain if this poster looked more like Tan's "Up" posters though, which look like the vintage National Parks poster style.

One thing's for sure, when your company sees this poster, they will definitely know it's about Lost! Very iconic.

Phish said...

Speaking of carefully crafted dialogue: In Season 3 when Ben is trying to dissuade Jack from bringing the freighter folks to the island he warns that if he does this then "every single living person on the island will be killed" (emphasis on the "living"). This seemed not so subtle. So, what's up with that?

Is there a bit of a consensus now that multiple (and coexisting) timelines/realities are part of the storyline? And somehow some folks are able to "jump" across timelines/realities, or at least communicate (i.e., the whispers, Charlie and others showing up to Hurley when he is back in "the real world"). So, theoretically these folks wouldn't be "killed" since their not technically "living" in that particular timeline/reality?

Another related and frequently used phrase is "see you in another lifetime," especially by Desmond. Something similar here?

Capcom said...

Right Phish, Ben's comment has definitely been a puzzle to mull! So where are the undead TPTB, enquiring minds want to know?!

:o)

Greg Tramel said...

interesting idea
"maybe the leader of the others in ‘54 was MIB"

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Phish, every living thing, in my head as of now, means everyone but Jacob and MIB. They fight, they destroy...progress. Ben was afraid for the Others. Since he wasn't around in 1954, he likely thought there was a good chance the Others couldn't survive. Or...he only cared about Alex, because he was/is such a dick.

The Oceanic poster looks more corporate, Capcom, but there is just way too much going on in it, not just every section filled in like w/Hurley and the van, but with S, K, the break-up of the plane, etc. If they'd stay ground level with the mid-section behind Jack, S & K in the background, sure, it might seem like any other promotional still with the three of them, but this is pretty much just the same, just too swirly. Credit for each poster being unique, though.

Capcom said...

Heheh, swirly. :-)

All our talk about Jacob and MIB fighting makes me think of them as Itchy and Scratchy on the Simpsons.

Greg Tramel said...

Ah! the island is on the back of a big turtle

Greg Tramel said...

are The Others really the good guys?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hi, everyone. Greg, in the 1st season there was something with scenes corresponding to Bohemian Rhapsody online and the turtle appears at the end. I'll be damned if I know where else I've seen the turtle image, not related to LOST but to our universe or solar system in general.

I watched JUGHEAD last night on my *cough* VHS player. Again the locations just don't play out, or they sorta do. The army camp became the Barracks, and Jughead was not taken into the catacombs through a waterfall, as was explained in S5. But why would Locke suggest everyone go back to the beach, get the Zodiac and take it "around the horn" to get to the Orchid faster. That one line does suggest that Locke really does know the coastline better than anyone besides the Others. That puts the beach camp in equal distance with the Orchid in opposite directions from the Barracks, though, for the sake of TV, by doing it that way we got the neat shootout with the outriggers.

Everything sort of matches up if you put the Orchid where the Tempest is on that map, maybe further inland. We saw water in the Tempest scenes, that station could be more towards high noon. I've always made the assumption that the O. and the Swan are at almost opposite sides of the Island. So we get the horn, where the foot and the science team landed. So was one section of the temple wall that close to the sonic fence? Anyhow, I'd be curious how Jughead was moved. The Barracks are separated by that range, which I believe was where Ben signaled with the mirror as Hurley ate 12 year old crackers. A great episode that then goes to the next with Jack and Kate playing Titanic as it opens. I truly hope that $#!t is over with, it really yanks when you see them back to back.

Greg, I didn't check your link yet re: MIB in 1954, though Richard does tell Faraday that he (Richard) killed the army team on orders of "his superior."

Capcom said...

Yep, "it's turtles all the way down!" :o)

All I have to say to Tom is, if someone's plane crashed on my house, I'd help to make sure that they were OK and able to go on their way without questions or b*tching about it. Having said that, that is sure a great vid, thanks for posting it Greg. Some peeps are so talented.

BTW, Zort at LostARGs has posted a neat new article about a book/game from the '70s that is very Lost like, check it out: Golden Hare I remember this event, now that he mentions it.

Capcom said...

I should say, that the Golden Hare book/game is similar to this hiatus' poster treasure hunt game.

Capcom said...

P.S. The universe on the back of a turtle comes from "...ancient beliefs that the world is borne through the universe on the back of one or more enormous animals (such as a turtle in Native American creation myth)..."(Wiki).

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

There you go, Capcom. Native American. I knew it was something from Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galaxy. I did not know that there was a puzzle game going on with the posters. Maybe that's why they are so busy, they might have clues?

Bigmouth said...

I was rereading the transcript for "The World of the Others" from the S3 DVD and noticed this interesting line by Carlton:

Carlton Cuse: But we now see that Locke does have a special communion with the island and he has a very mysterious encounter in this cabin with what may or may not be Jacob.

So it looks like they were hedging their bets even then.

Capcom said...

Read: they were planning on confusing us way back then. Heheh. Nice ctach Big.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Good catch, Big. I just finished the whiny Kate episode (with Claire's mom) where she stalks off after Ben says "but he's NOT your son, Kate." It was the episode with the outrigger flash and I'm wondering if any site has good screen caps of the other boat. Yet again, they are rowing south, to get to the Orchid no less, maybe the Island needs to be turned upside down (on the turtle).

I just like how Ben was the grandmaster in those episodes, showing up at the hospital after Sayid was almost drugged again, always throwing off vibes that he is either good or bad, whereas on the Island he just seemed horribly, horribly selfish. I guess when the rules changed, his attitude did, as well.

Also, in that commentary, I like that Cuse uses the word "what" and not "who."

Bigmouth said...

I, too, wonder about that outrigger flash from the Little Prince. Seems like it takes place AFTER the confrontation at Jacob's Foot. Were Ilana and Co. shooting at Locke under the assumption he was already the MIB?

Bigmouth said...

BTW, the idea linked by Greg that MIB controlled the Others in 1954 is a really intriguing one.

Capcom said...

I like the 1954 ideas too. As to the thought that Flocke seemed to be happy to get back to the island, maybe MIB lost whatever vessel his entity was in, and while in the cabin was only in a spirit form, or at least a very nebulous ephemeral one. That's why Ben and Locke didn't see him, and perhaps he only was able to appear to special Hurley momentarily at the window. So when MIB took over Locke's bod, he was happy to be back in a mortal body again (not to mention free from the cabin). I dunno, I'm just letting the thoughts rush out, I'm not attached to what I just said at all. :o)

KoreAmBear said...

Bigsy,

That's a cool notion that the outrigger shooting at Locke, Juliet, Miles and Sawyer, are Ilana and Bram, thinking that it's Flocke they are shooting at.

That was a mystery to me too Wayne, why there was someone so aggressive about shooting the time flashers -- as if they knew something about them. Or alternatively, I thought they were shooting because they thought the outrigger was being stolen.

But the empty Ajira water bottle that Locke, Sawyer and Co. found as they initially saw the outriggers -- wasn't that Ben's water from Ajira 316?

lostmio said...

Capcom, how can we say MiB took over Locke's mortal body? It's still lying around.

Capcom said...

I didn't mean physically and literally, I meant visually.

:-)

lostmio said...

Cap, yeah I know..
it's just that the two Lockes is one of those mysteries that drives me nuts.

I know there's no need to restart that whole discussion. Still I think it's important to include the two-Locke phenomena in any MiB/UnLocke mention.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

My big thing is the whole MIB being invisible or visible thing. We rarely see him, I don't think many people have seen him, compared to the awareness we now have about him (does that sentence make sense)? During the course of the show, I've thought MIB or Smokey was inside Vincent. And that MIB or Smokey brought Locke back to life in the pilot, because Locke was the most logical person to have believe in the Island as magical. MIB is not there in the cabin with Ben & Locke, even though he has presumably been in Christian. Maybe he cannot be MIB and Smokey at the same time. I haven't been able to read that 1954 link because the site is down.

I've thought the outrigger with the Ajira bottle belonged to Sun & Frank. Frank would have offered Sun water out of being a gentleman, or she might have said, dude, you're bleeding. Take the water. Did Ben have a bottle in his & Locke's outrigger? I just watched the well episode last night and this bothers me: there were several times that the flashes happened just seconds apart. Well, when Charlotte is on the ground after one flash, she seems almost serene, instead of screaming in pain; after the next, this is when she mentions the well. I sometimes think that Jacob and/or MIB orchestrated when and where the time flashes took everyone, because Jacob could easily have been helping MIB with his loophole all along. And someone had to tell Locke to get into that well. One flash later, the Orchid is there, a few seconds later, it is gone. They needed to see the Orchid's exact spot to find the well. The time flashes in "This Place Is Death" seem particularly played out, but for the outrigger shooting. I'm not sure if it was Bram and Ilana, etc., I asked re: if anyone has seen screencaps. Makes sense that it is them, but it would be a neat reveal if it was some other group from some other time. They could have been the Others prior to S3, after Karl escapes Hydra.

neoloki said...

The bet piece of evidence I can think of for why MIB and Smokey are not the same entity is when Sun and Frank dock in the outrigger outside of the barracks we hear Smokey going through the bushes and then we see Christian at the door to Dharma's orientation center. At this time MIB/Not-Locke is on Hydra Island talking to Caesar and/or iliana.

Making MIB and Smokey the same entity would be a muddled way of resolving the issue.

neoloki said...

Wayne there were two outriggers at the beach camp, and Sun and Frank's outrigger was taken back to Hydra by Frank. He is then knocked unconscious by Iliana.

My feeling about the outrigger shootout is that it will be our Losties shooting at our Losties. Juliet shot someone and it would be a nice bit of irony if she shot James.

neoloki said...

Wayne, please post your thought when you re-watch The Variable. I would be curious if any of your initial impressions change. Specifically concerning Faraday's actions throughout the day of his death. Also, the conversation between Penny and Eliose is fantastic. I believe The Variable to be one of the most important episodes we have seen so far. (also, my favorite)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Neoloki, I agree with you on the MIB Smokey thing, that is a good example you posted. I do believe Jacob was helping MIB with the loophole all along, just a feeling. What MIB was accomplishing with Locke, Jacob was nudging maybe back in 1954. If anything, I'm thinking that Smokey can leave MIB for a certain amount of time, maybe a few minutes at most and he remains a type of shell, but your scene description makes sense. And you are right re: Frank returning to Hydra. I'm not that far into rewatching S5. With that last episode, pretty much all of S5 needs to be re-examined.

I can see why Jacob hates technology, seeing as how the DI screwed a lot up, yet why did he simply let DI build the Orchid instead of just letting them perform their weather experiments, et al.? His "progress"? He just seems to get involved when he wants to.

I would not be surprised to see Sawyer and Juliet, etc., in the other outrigger, in a DIFFERENT seating order shooting at the others before the flash to 1988. If Juliet is there, it would give one crazy flash, because if all the other flashes were to important scenes in the Island's history, what provoked the outrigger shoot-out? If they knew they were in the near future, WHY shoot anybody without knowing WHO they were? I'm glad they left that for S6, actually.

neoloki said...

Wayne, I have watched all of season 5 a few times now and I seem to take something new away every time. It is loaded with info, clues and easter eggs. I also have come to appreciate it's quality. One of the best season's.

I have a gut feeling the outrigger shoot out won't be seen until season 6 finale and juliet will have killed some one critical to Lost.

One of the facets of season 6 I am most looking forward to is learning in more detail the relationship between jacob and MIB. Why does MIB want to kill jacob? What are his motivations? I doubt isolationism or jealousy is his sole motivation. This is Lost there has to be some dirty linen.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Right, neoloki, it's more than just one guy wanting to stop the other guy's progress. And good guys (mentioned many times) vs. bad guys (the only time mentioned implicitly was by Ben about the frieghter offshore) seems to too simple, there must be layers beneath that.

And whereas I've gone by the idea of symmetry for awhile, even with Desmond's exercise wheel mirroring Jacob's weaving the tapestry, all bets could be off in that respect, too. I'd be curious as to your Easter Eggs, so we can all match them up.

Now I see what you mean about Sawyer in particular being shot. That's why I think its him at the front of the outrigger, Locke is only good at throwing knives. Doesn't explain my thinking on why there'd be two different seat arrangements in the outriggers, I'm just tossing stuff out.

Now I am 100% certain the shootout takes place after the events at the end of S5 or even the same day, and it is effectively the same group shooting at each other. If Juliet shot and killed Locke in that future event, would he then retroactively degrade in MIB's form in the past? I.e., the anamoly would not be sudden, rather weave it's way backwards to MIB Locke telling Richard to fix up 2004 Locke at the Beechcraft? Loopholes unravel, they aren't cut severed. Nooses get severed. Another crazy thought.

Capcom said...

Sorry, I was just rambling my thoughts on the 1954 blog post that Big brought up, which mentioned "--------".

I really hope that TPTB are going to show us who was in the other canoe, and that it won't be one of those millions of things that we don't really need to know. It is really too bizarre an event to not have meaning, but so were a lot of other things in the show. I hope that my pessimism about that is off the mark.

The good news is, Fringe starts back up next week, so my brain will get a rest from Lost, whew.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, the ----- needn't be for me, that link is for theories, not spoilers, but thx. (Still haven't read it yet, now that I can, the site is down). The outrigger thing is too open-ended not to be resolved. Other things can be discussed on blogs, but this one needs to be answered as much as why MIB hated Jacob so much.

Here's one. Cerberus itself. What if the three heads represent MIB, Smokey, and Jacob. Lame, to be sure, but what if MIB hates Jacob for effectively making Cerberus two-headed? Or, if not Jacob, who is the third head? Richard? Don't forget what the dormouse said to Alice: feed your head.

Capcom said...

Heheh, no, it wasn't for you Wayne. But there aren't any spoilers in that 1954 article that Greg linked, and it's got some good ideas.

Yes, why MIB hates Jacob, now (thanks a lot TPTB) in the top 5 questions that must be answered, pushing other previous important questions aside. Whoodathunk that we'd get such a huge question bomb like that in season 5? Well, I sure didn't.

Hmmm, going to do some thinking about that Cerberus idea.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I was really just tossing out Cerberus since Big's post does refer to it by that name and not Smokey, as we are used to by now. Just got me thinking. I'm more into what to make of the outrigger scene and the possibilities than can arise.

I just sent you and Greg a BCC to a note I wrote Gina Miller AKA Nanogirl. I mentioned her site in the spring, as I found it when I Googled the many worlds theory. Neoloki, lostmio, anyone else who wants to see some fascinating stuff (her work is incredible, but she has links to great articles), wait a day or two and then find Gina Miller on my FB page. Or just Google Nanogirl and check out her site.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Well, they are at the Lamp Post, I've been watching less than an episode a day. I take that back, they were just flashed off 316. And aside from the Thirty Years Earlier/Later, I can pick up nothing that tells me time changed for Ajira. I'll bet for those who still don't get it, there's a chance that the outrigger scene might help, because I have a hard time explaining to most people why 316 went back in time a month, other than to go with Faraday's payload and the recent comment by Cuse about the Island's present. Hard enough they don't get the two Lockes at the statue.

Is the monastery Brother Campbell works in (he's got that photo with Eloise) near another pocket of energy? Another thing we'll not get answers to, just a part of Desmond's past. If Eloise states that the calculations are for where the Island is going to be, the jump into the past has to do with the loophole.

Capcom said...

Good point about Bro Campbell's church! We think that the one in LA (i.e., the Lamp Post) is the one mentioned in the latest Mysteries Of The Universe film, if you haven't checked that out yet. The church is apparently a logistical funnel for DI ops and acquisitions!

:-o

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Wayne's rewatch update. Widmore talks to Locke in Tunisia, thinking at first Locke was banished from the Island. By late 2007, Ben had surely told Widmore that he would kill Penny. So who is it that Widmore thought banished Locke? Another thing I gave no thought to at the time, since we learned turning the wheel isn't the only way to get kicked off the Island. Also...Widmore knew Tunisia was the "exit point." He didn't have cameras set up for Ben, so this is something he must've learned on Island (or from Eloise). He wouldn't assume that the info he likely got from the Bedouins who found Ben was a one time thing.

I did watch the current Mysteries today, Capcom. In all the talk of vile vortices, its always assumed they are over water. No reason why there can't be one beneath Brother Campbell's church.

Capcom said...

I agree, and didn't Mrs.H say that there was something special about where the Lamp Post was too? I could swear she did, but I could be wrong.

It could be that TPTB just didn't show us that Wid had cameras in the desert back when Ben turned the FDW. I'm not saying for sure, but it's possible. Those desert dudes could have also been Wid's men maybe?

neoloki said...

The numbers are being broadcast again. We hear them as the plane descends towards Alcatraz but were are they being broadcast from or are TPTB just showing us a time anomaly? If there is a clue anywhere it is there. Hell I don't know anymore. I think I have been spending to much time on Lost?

Thunderstorm said...

Neoloki, my guess about the numbers is, when 316 Arrived, the Island was moving in space-time.

Because it went from nighttime to broad daylight and Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley ended up in 1977.

And Eloise had to predict where it would be in time and space and in the very same episode said it was "always moving".

So yeah, I don't know that it's any big mystery...but you know how that goes.

neoloki said...

After I typed that response last night I was looking at it thinking I know the explanation for this but I am way over thinking everything right now. Best to keep it simple most of the time.

lostmio said...

Wayne, I think Widmore's cameras were there when Ben jumped into Tunisia. By the time Ben got to Widmore's place, Widmore was expecting him.

Imo, Widmore and Ben do and always have played on the same team. They had that struggle for leadership of the island, which carried over - with some tragic consequences, but it was a civil strife (as in 'civil war', not meaning they were polite to each other).

neoloki said...

the cameras were not there when Ben appeared in Tunisia. At least not the cameras that were surrounding Locke.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Capcom, Eloise mentions a pocket of energy below the Lamp Post. And I still think using a church was a great idea, going down the rabbit hole from faith to science.

Without looking back, I'd agree with neoloki on the cameras. The shot of Ben was more sweeping than Locke's. Now I would say I BELIEVE Widmore was monitoring parts of Tunisia, but he got the info on where Ben appeared in the parka from whoever the Bedouins reported to. Then the cameras went up in that general area. And there's yet another mystery we'll likely not get an answer to, the polar bear skeleton Charlotte found at the dig. I know it introduced Tunisia to us, but how did the DI get it there, with the wheel? (Well, I mean, of course, but when? In the 80s?)

lostmio, I know that Widmore was waiting for Ben, but I took it that someone at the hotel in Tunis tipped him to "Dean Moriarty" making a visit. That could explain the clerk being a bit shaken as she looked "Dean" up. Again, something that will not be answered directly, I think that many of the expected-unanswered questions will have a somewhat logical thread to get answers.

Capcom said...

Oh gee, nice relation/combination of faith and science, I like it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Since MOF, MOS in S2, I've been seeing those references in different way. Plus the circular steps for The Worm Whose Name I Cannot Spell.

Greg, thx for the link in my email. Everyone, Lost Theories is still down.

My buddy Greg has now seen the last episode and agrees with me, that every conversation we've had on LOST (mostly re S4 and S5) is almost meaningless.

Greg Tramel said...

we've discussed Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) but i ran across something he came up with that has even more Lost relevance

Choice points: "The moments in time and space when the vibrating quanta leap from one parallel universe to the other ... The choice point occurs when conditions appear along the paths of two actual parallel universes that create a path between the present course of events and a new course leading to new outcomes. The choice point is like a little tiny bridge making it possible to begin in one lane and change course to experience the outcome of a whole new pathway."

Capcom said...

Interesting Greg. And I'm thankful that the Fringe peeps have said that they'll only be dealing with two dimensions on that show.

:o)

Greg Tramel said...

Everett said, “There are moments in time when it becomes possible to jump from one reality to another by creating a quantum bridge between two already-existing possibilities. He called those windows of opportunity “choice points“.

Greg Tramel said...

yes Capcom, 2 universes in Fringe is more than enough for me

to prepare for Fringe this Thursday night here is a nice summary by our friend Therese

Fringe: Over There! Over There!

Greg Tramel said...

"A “choice-point” is a moment in time that offers an opportunity to change the course of events. Conditions arise that create a path between “business as usual” along our current path, and a new path leading to new outcomes. A choice point is like a bridge making it possible to be on one path, and then change course completely to embrace a new path leading to a different outcome."

Greg Tramel said...

and some our or favorite Lost topics such as predestination paradox, Schrodinger's Cat, multiverses, parallel universes and such show up in her Fringe recap here

Fringe: Wonder Twin Powers Activate!

Capcom said...

I think that it should be a national law that parents must tell their children about that choice-point theory, I was always told that I couldn't change anything. I never knew it had a name, but I'm sure glad that I eventually learned about that possbility from the "University of Life" so to speak. There's a world of possiblity to be found when you can "change course completely to embrace a new path leading to a different outcome." Oh well, it's late and I'm getting morbid. :-p

Thanks for the links Greg, I'll be reading them tomorrow. But I did the same thing she did, I got so hung up on Lost conundrums that I didn't even feel like rewatching Fringe, and now I'm all excited about it starting up again after the finale aired last week. :-o

Greg Tramel said...

i actually watched the Fringe repeats the last 2 weeks but they were doing this twittering thing at the bottom of the screen that was VERY annoying

sad to find out that Defying Gravity is canceled, i did not see the episode last Sunday but i hope we get a little explanation of what/who the heck Beta is

Dollhouse starts back September 25

Greg Tramel said...

anyway back to Lost, Phish asked if "there a bit of a consensus now that multiple (and coexisting) timelines/realities are part of the storyline?"

i'm still sticking with no BUT i can't seem to come up with another explanation for season 6 other than a lane change

Greg Tramel said...

yes Capcom, Choice Points ideology has a multitude of uses as well as it REALLY fits in with Jacob's notion of choice, there is tons of stuff out there about it especially in relation to 2012

here's just a little more that i think resonates with Lost tangent universes

"these opportune moments to redefine outcomes may come only at specific intervals where the roads of time bend their courses and approach other roads. Sometimes the roads are so close that they touch"

Greg Tramel said...

Wqayne, you will be happy to hear i found this book which contains the Howling Man short story so i will be reading it

The Twilight Zone: the Original Stories

Capcom said...

Defying Gravity is cancelled?! Crap, stoopid ABC. ***MINOR SPOILER FOLLOWING*** And no, no indication whatsoever of what Beta is. Totally left open in the end, I guess they were leaving that for the first ep of S2. Bah humbug. Maybe SF channel will pick it up.


"... so close that they touch", oh, now there's an idea that sounds a lot like S5 and the shape of things to come!

Greg Tramel said...

here's a new place (at least it is new to me) to watch all the Defying Gravity episodes(and Dollhouse and tons of other TV shows) in addition to Hulu and ABC

/slashcontrol

neoloki said...

here is another good place to catch cable and network tv shows.
http://tvshack.net/

Bigmouth said...

I'm partial to surfthechannel.com. Somehow, I completely missed Defying Gravity -- didn't even know it existed.

Greg Tramel said...

THANKS! Neoloki and Big, these sites have some of the pay cable shows that are a little harder to find

i also use SideReel

Defying Gravity had a touch of Solaris going for it

Capcom said...

Big, that's something that forum posters complain about at the ABC DG site, the fact that ABC hardly promoted it at all. It got some promotion before it began, but then after the series was on, there were hardly any ads for it ever. Just following their usual pattern at ABC for the past few seasons, with new breakthru type shows that never get a chance.

You're right Greg, it was on the order of Solaris. And maybe Sunshine too a bit?

Greg Tramel said...

this morning i was listening to a podcast on the way to work about solar worship so i i think i need to watch Sunshine

hopefully FlashForward (starts Sept 24)will live a few seasons since they have been heavy on the promotion

Capcom said...

Let me know what you think about Sunshine, Greg. So far I've only seen it once at the theater, and haven't quite figured it out yet. Or shall I say, haven't taken the time to.

Phishhead said...

The article about multiverses is interesting and in line with some of the as-yet-to-be-connected theories running around my little brain.

I've been thinking things like this: There are multiple universes created by all of these different choice-points. They are different "wavelengths" in spacetime. Each universe/wavelength has it's own Valenzetti-ish equation detailing our demise. The DI tried to change the known variables in the equation (represented be all the different stations) but failed because "whatever happened, happened" within our particular universe and timeline. So, the only way to save humanity is to push us all into another equation/universe. Somehow the island is responsible for determining which universe our physical bodies are in, and the unique electromagnetic properties serve as a crossroads of sorts for jumping us into another universe where we won't kill each other off in the near future. Perhaps blowing the bomb pushed us into another universe? Perhaps blowing the hatch did as well? When Desmond says, "See you in another life," he means it (see you in another wavelength/universe).

I also have this sense that our physical bodies can only exist in one universe but under special circumstances our mind/soul can connect with more than one universe. There's something about this that seems to get close to explaining things like "the whispers," Hurley's hallucinations, and Miles' ability to read dead people (separation of body and mind/spirit).

I dunno, my brain hurts. But I do like the already existing theories of there being a larger equation (fate) for each universe but human free will is one variable in that equation. It captures how both larger forces and individual choice come together to create reality.

By the way. Who created this equation? Where is God anyway? In the Temple?

Greg Tramel said...

well Capcom, MAYBE Defying Gravity is NOT cancelled

Defying Gravity Not Actually Canceled Yet According to ABC

Capcom said...

Weird. The monkeys are running the zoo at ABC, it's amazing that Lost didn't get cancelled way back when.

I like what you're getting at Phish.

Phishhead said...

Sorry, but a few more questions/observations/possible connections:

When Juliet is in "therapy" with Harper, Harper is explaining why Ben is infatuated with Juliet and makes an off-hand comment that, "Of course, you look just like her." Looks just like who? I think she looks a bit like a younger Eloise, right? So, Ben has a teenage crush on young Eloise and starts to make plans to try and make her "his" (the same way with Juliet). Perhaps this is another motivation for getting Widmore off the island. Take his girl and his throne? But, when Eloise doesn't go along he kicks her off the island as well? Wouldn't be the first time he's tried something like this. . . .

Greg Tramel said...

yeah Phish, i like how your tying it all together, i would add vibration to the buzzwords wavelengths, electromagnetism, choice points

Phishhead said...

One more thing about Widmore and Eloise. After Eloise shoots Daniel Richard is beginning to explain to Jack and Kate who they are. He starts to explain, "They are. . ." but then he stops himself and simply says " . . .Let's just say that love is complicated."

What the?! What kind of unorthodox relationship could they have with each other?

Capcom said...

Wellll, it's been posited that the "her" might be Ben's mother, who might be the blonde woman holding the gerbil(?), in the painting in his house. But nothing is for sure, so your guess is as good as any, Phish. :-)

Yeah, haha, if ya can't explain complicated love to Kate and Jack -- the most complicated duo since the invention of soap operas -- who can you 'splain it to?! I guess TPTB were being purposefully obscure with us, the crumb-bums.

"Vibration" is also a word used in talking about M-theory and branes. But I guess we shouldn't go there, heheh.

lostmio said...

Just thought I'd throw this in here, in case anyone's still pondering it.

Charles Widmore told John Locke that a war was coming to the Island, and that if Locke didn’t return, the wrong side would win.

Imo, that points to MiB inhabiting Locke's body back at the point of the wheel turn.
Widmore knows there's 'another' Locke on the island, and the only way to neutralize that fake Locke is to get the real Locke back.

I know Widmore indicated he'd try to prevent the real Locke from dying, but IMO that validates Widmore's motive. Widmore might not have foreseen that real Locke would be dead, but he did foresee that real Locke would need to go back. dead or alive, to expose MiB aka Fake Locke.

Widmore knows that MiB must be exposed as Fake Locke and the only way to do that is to get real Locke back to the island. Otherwise, "the wrong side" will win.
Right? Or am I missing something because I'm so blindside by my adoration of Widmore?

lostmio said...

whoops, meant to post that in the One Ben or Two thread...

anyways, I also posted an edited version over at the Fuselage.
Am anxious for feedback.

Greg Tramel said...

Lostmio, 1st i would have to get over the Widemore knew about MiB hurdle and i'm not quite there yet, not that i really have any hard evidence either way, i just simply don't know

i had an interesting scene running though my head all last night

Jack, Kate and Sawyer flash to The Swan while Des is out and the timer is going off September 2004, Jack insists they have to push the button, Sawyer insists they can't push the button and Dingbat just sits there with a stupid look on her face dumbfounded BUT at the last minute she does the right thing for once and pushes the button(of course some may disagree and contend pushing the button would be the wrong thing to do but IMHO, i feel it would be the right thing to do)

Bigmouth said...

Lostmio: Interesting idea that the MIB inhabited Locke when he turned the Wheel. But I think you are -- as you admit -- romanticizing Widmore just a bit. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that he serves the MIB. Widmore's complicity may not be conscious or willing. But when he says the "wrong side" will win, I think he's referring to Ilana and Co. winning the war against the Others led by Zombie Locke.

The wild card for me is still Eloise. Does she keep Daniel on course to help Jacob's plan? Or is she so crippled by the fear of changing things for the worse that she grudgingly sacrifices her only son, even though it helps the MIB? I'm really torn but find it interesting that she -- like Widmore -- never actually utters the name "Jacob."

Bigmouth said...

PS: Feel free to repost your comment on One Ben or Two? or elsewhere if you think it'll get lost on this post. Unfortunately, Blogger doesn't handle hundreds of comments well.

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