EYE M SICK: More Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

Friday, December 18, 2009

More Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

Due to popular demand, I've created another post for spoiler discussions. Feel free to post your spoiler speculations about Season 6, but please limit your discussion of them to this post, and this post only. As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

330 comments:

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Bigmouth said...: I'm reposting my response to NetProphet concerning spoiler pics that apparently depict Charles Widmore's return to the Island.

I'm assuming those portable pylons work like the sonic fence. Ergo, it looks like Smokey is the main thing preventing people from returning to the Island. That's presumably why Charles hasn't returned in all these years, and why the first thing Ben did was visit Smokey.

PS: Was Widmore mocking MIB by giving Locke the alias of "Jeremy Bentham" who believed natural law was "nonsense on stilts"?; December 18, 2009 at 8:25 AM
Capcom said...: Hmm, so I guess the portables create a force field around Wid so that Smokey can't judge and Eko-smash him, and Wid can walk around the island relatively worry-free. Can't wait to see what that equipment looks like. Maybe like one of the Sharper Image Ionic Breeze units that you wear around your neck. :-)

Wid could have been mocking him for that, interesting. Or, Wid was telegraphing to MIB that he knew what MIB was doing with Locke (i.e. Bentham's "living dead" corpse), so watch out he's onto his tricks and is coming prepared. ???; December 18, 2009 at 8:50 AM
neoloki said...: this might sound stupid but are we sure that it is Widmore. The picture is pretty bad. I don't know. just a thought. and whose trapped.; December 18, 2009 at 11:20 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Hell with it. Count me in, my chips are on the table. Ride, Captain, Ride. I saw NetProphet's warning. And yet, here I am.

I, of course, have no idea what photo you are talking about. I imagine it is Widmore dressed as the famous Daredevil villain Stilt-Man, all purple and with a bubble head. Now that was a, well, a lost opportunity by the poster-churning machine. (The question remains, would Ben then be dressed as DD?); December 18, 2009 at 4:07 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Annnnnd, ass-pulling time. Is this how Desmond finds out that the Island isn't through with him yet? That Widmore might need help, and Smokey/the Island can't figure in a wild card play like Des, and this helps in some small way.

By the way, you are all enablers. But at least over here, its fun. Yeah, I'll keep telling myself that.; December 18, 2009 at 4:13 PM
Capcom said...: Your are right Wayne, we are enablers! Welcome to the opium den, heheh.

You could be on to something there with Wid and Des. If I was writing the show, I would then give Wid the opportunity to say, "Desmond, can you ever forgive me? I knew all along that you were a great man who sacrificed himself for the greater good, but I had to pretend that I hated you to get us to this point and save the world." And then of course, Des punches Wid in the honker, picks him up, and forgives him.; December 18, 2009 at 5:53 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: I like both Bigmouth's and Capcom's takes on the possible reason for Widmore's choice of the the Bentham identity. Hey - if Widmore does trap Flocke with the portable fence, it could play out as an ironic twist: turning the tables on "Bentham" by trapping him in a sort of Panopticon...

Another possibility, of course, is that Widmore and MiB have been partners in the whole scheme. MiB apparently knew he needed Locke's body all along, and Charles certainly facilitated Betntham's quest to track down the O6 to convince them to return to the Island. As Widmore says, there is a war coming and if Locke is not back, the "wrong side" is going to win. But I get the feeling the only "right" side for Widmore is whatever suits his own best interests. So...

Locke dies to go back where his identity is promptly assumed by MiB. MiB as Flocke does away with Jacob, and Widmore thereafter makes the triumphant return to "his" Island. Knowing his partner's weakness, he then betrays MiB so he can be king of the hill.

Or something like that.

As for you Wayne Allen Sallee, all I can say is "O.K., O.K., O.K. - Just a little pinprick. There'll be no more AAAAAAAAAAHHHH! (But you may feel a little sick.)"; December 18, 2009 at 7:55 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: NetProphet, I'm cool as long as I don't get any of this characters who come back stuff. I already have a device set up over my computer screen that allows me to lean fwd and temporarily blind myself if I read the wrong thing.

The Panopticon is an under-rated device, and I've always laid odds that this was why Widmore came up with the Benthem name. Even if Locke didn't get killed the way RA explained, in effect, Widmore was expecting Locke to be his eyes and ears back on the Island.

This is one reason I see Widmore and Eloise as analogues of MIB and Jacob. In Eloise's case, she doesn't care about sacrifices, just as Jacob didn't, in regards to Nadia. Eloise seems to be willing to sacrifice Desmond in some way, and maybe it will be to escort Widmore back where he grew up as a little Hitler youth.; December 18, 2009 at 8:06 PM
lostmio said...: Does anyone have a working spec on how Smokie-MiB-whatever got to Hydra island?

Seems like other stuff has *implied* Smokie can't travel through or over water. I might be wrong about that but it just doesn't sit right to think that Smokie traveled from the main island to Hydra before taking over Locke's form. That's one of many reasons I lean toward Smokie becoming Flocke back in the frozen donkey wheel tunnel, just before Locke turned the wheel.; December 18, 2009 at 10:04 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: One thing that has always stood out was the fact that MIB/Locke took off his shoes while on the outrigger with Ben. That might have simply been a tell on soles/souls again. I'm just saying, its just a weird connection between Hydra and the main Island.

Here's something, lostmio, if, say, MIB/Christian hopped into Locke as he left the Island, it could explain at least a few interactions back in LA, particularly with Hurley and Walt. Certainly he would have been pulling one over on Widmore. Perhaps something was to be gained from working with Abbadon, as well.

With all of Locke's memories, he could easily relate his story about Helen to have Kate elicit her, sorry, pissy response. Jack was no better, calling Locke an old man who was delusional. All of it, though, would have led to Ben re-killing Locke, perhaps (well, yea, surely) facilitating the way to get Ben back to the Island and judged properly.

Also, there might be a connecting tunnel to Hydra, but that is out there, I know.; December 19, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: By the way, when everyone was talking trinities, how about Aaron, Ji-Yeon, and Charlie?; December 19, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: (Back from a break, shoveling snow). Another reason to think it was MIB Locke as Benthem, but with a twist: Face it, everybody lied over those three years, not just about the crash. Ben lied to Sayid, Jack & Kate lied to each other and in court, even Hurley told a little lie to Walt, saying his dad was still helping people.

This pretty much mirrored so much of what happened on the Island, with information being so compartmentalized. Even if you were part of "the group" that Hurley questions Jack over. Nikki & Paulo find the Pearl and say nothing. Locke, the most forward thinker in the sense of understanding the damn Island, hides certain things. Juliet keeps her file as an Other secret. Ben. Just Ben.

The only sincere person in 2008 was Benthem-Locke and what better way to show MIB as trickster than to have him be MIB-Benthem?; December 19, 2009 at 12:42 PM
Bigmouth said...: Lostmio: I'm assuming Smokey used one of the underground tunnels. There's one leading to Hydra that's supposedly blocked, but I'll bet that doesn't stop Smokey.; December 20, 2009 at 9:06 AM
Capcom said...: I definitely have been wondering about the nursery bunch of JiYeon, Charlie, and Aaron, Wayne. You'd think that they have a purpose in something, and that Charlie wasn't just born merely for the obligatory "Awwwwww" moment for Des and Pen.; December 20, 2009 at 3:48 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: You're right, Bigmouth. I wasn't off by saying that (I really thought I was being lame), there is some sort of blocked-off tunnel. Maybe it was an actual Cerberus Vent...?

Not just the aww factor, Capcom, but where the hell are the kids? Granted, only three days have passed since Ajira took off, so it seems longer.

My guess? I've yet to see the Widmore photo, but I'd be curious as to if he is instrumental for getting Aaron back to the Island. That seems more likely than anything else right now. The thing is figuring out how he would find out he was with Claire's mom. Though, if memory serves me, several paintings in his office look like the paintings Aaron's daddy worked on. Widmore is like Lex Luthor, he has ways of finding things out. He has certainly had business dealings with Paik, but knowing about Ji-Yeon seems to go nowhere.

Big, you were a proponent of A and J-Y as the Omega Point. Any thoughts on this? Widmore brings one or both kids with him?; December 20, 2009 at 4:36 PM
neoloki said...: Anyone one posting here participating in Lost University? Finally got my season 5 Blu-Ray the other day and figure I will go through the rigor-ma-role of taking "classes". The couple of videos I watched over at Dark's site that were physics classes were fairly interesting if not exactly new information for me.

Just curious...; December 20, 2009 at 11:41 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: neoloki, I don't have Blu-Ray, but I did get the DI boxed set. Normally, I don't splurge, but I was able to get it on pre-order from Amazon for 45% off. So not LU, but all the other fun stuff. With one season left, I figured it was a treat.; December 21, 2009 at 9:30 AM
Capcom said...: Oops, forgot to answer you on that over at the MIB post Neo. I don't have Bluray either, but I'll probably play around with the online version after Xmas, if there's anything there to do.; December 21, 2009 at 12:27 PM
Cameron said...: I have been thinking about this a bit and thought I would post it.

I have decided that baby Charlie must in fact be Charles Widmore. It seems way to much of a co-incidence that the names and the context are the same for it to simply be.

I totally think that baby Charlie will end up on the island and grow up there.; December 21, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Cameron, whomever you might be, what a crazy and insanely cool thought! It is thinking outside the box, as most everyone assumes that everyone from 1954 were descendants of the Black Rock. I don't see as how a baby would be on the BR. But...who is to say that someone who hadn't expected to get pregnant, OR impregnate someone, didn't have the same situation Sun & Jin went through. One way of the 'everything happens for a reason' in regards to Ji-Yeon not having much of a storyline, right?; December 21, 2009 at 2:11 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Stranger things, man. I've never given Widmore's return to the Island much thought, so who knows what is up in tat regards.; December 21, 2009 at 5:40 PM
Bigmouth said...: Cameron...that's brilliant! I may have to devote a separate post to that possibility. I've long maintained that Penny and Desmond are Adam and Eve...

Daniel, I think that's the idea. As Wayne says, stranger things have happened, especially in science fiction. See, e.g., the Robert Heinlein story All You Zombies, where the main character is his own father AND mother thanks to a time loop and sex change operation.; December 21, 2009 at 5:43 PM
Capcom said...: Yes, the baby Charlie/Widmore idea is very provocative, it came up on the post-episode talk after he got named, but not much said since then. It's also thught that he's Charlie as well. Don't know what to think of those ideas, but the whole circular time thing puts my head in a spin for sure.; December 21, 2009 at 6:45 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Maybe this is what Eloise meant by saying that the Island isn't through with Desmond yet. It would certainly be another loop of many.

Of all the book clues on the show, I've wondered why we never saw a book on time paradoxes. Robert Silverberg edited several back in the 70s, and this is how I first became aware of "All You Zombies."

My favorite pun for the show is with Jack and Christian being a "pair o' docs."; December 21, 2009 at 7:15 PM
neoloki said...: Oh, well Wayne and Capcom. I guess when I start it I will post anything that I find relevant.

Big

the new Kristen spoiler brings up the possibility that Shannon and Boone's backstory has changed significantly which might lead one to believe either we will not see a Tangent universe but a Parallel universe or as you have said season 1 through 5 is the Tangent. Interesting though..

Why did Richard want Paul's body? Just to show The Other's that revenge was had for the death of 2 of their own? Doesn't seem likely. If that is not the case what the hell are they gonna do with the body? Feed it to Smokie?; December 21, 2009 at 10:43 PM
Nicky said...: I think Seasons 1-5 are made up of multiple tangents - hence the changes to the dock scenes, Ben's gun shot wound moving, the picture frame changing when Miles walked downstairs etc; December 22, 2009 at 1:32 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Just wanted to note that the latest crossword appears to use the name SAMUEL in reference to MiB (early call sheets had the character listed by that name). Sounds like Richard may have made a deal with the devil before becoming Jacob's man.; December 22, 2009 at 8:15 AM
MikeNY said...: NetProphet-

Speaking of Samuel, MilkcanRocks found a cool connection with an alternate spelling: Samael is (in one common reading) the Angel of Death.; December 22, 2009 at 9:22 AM
Capcom said...: LOL Wayne.

Yes, definitely, post what you think of LU Neoloki! Sorry that some of us can't play along, but I'll check to see if the online thing is anything like the Bluray, maybe we can compare notes on some parts.

It would be nice if in another lifetime Shannon wasn't such a twit. I found it hard to believe that just a little bit of tough luck could have turned her into such a brainless loser. I would have preferred if she just gave her stepmonster a punch in the nose. :o)

Nicky, it sure would be nice to get some valid reasons for the inconsistancies that haven't been labeled by TPTB as actual goofs yet (like Paulo's newspaper date).; December 22, 2009 at 9:50 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: neoloki and Nicky, my pet theory was that the flashbacks of S1-2 were the tangent universe, neither here nor there, but just that when LOST started, we were already in the middle of the reboot. We were already seeing the very beginnings of course-correction. If Shannon and Boone's backstory has changed, I think it is just back to what it should have been in the first place.

There are several instances involving bodies, the Hostiles dragging the two guys killed by the Claymore in 1954 is one. I never pegged Keamy's group to care about burying Rousseau and Karl, so I don't know if that was the Hostiles from the Temple who buried the bodies (maybe for Miles to get info, maybe just for drama).; December 22, 2009 at 10:02 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Capcom, an easy way to see certain inconsistencies play out is a visual trick, show, say, Kate in cuffs next to Mars, then Sawyer, then Kate again. Bing bing bing. Instead of the picture frame switch--which I think was not a goof, it was a tell to be on the lookout for boxes--see it change, then change BACK. (To quote Yogi Berra, this feels like deja vu all over again.) We already have a few alternate scenes filmed, how cool would it be to see Desmond become Sawyer become Locke in the coffin? If they are going to be meshing the realities, this would be the fastest way, i.e., the closer they get to being re-woven, like the tapestry, the faster the changes occur.

Hey! Maybe the red tapestry represents the ALT reality, Jacob's the true one, or vice versa...; December 22, 2009 at 10:09 AM
Greg Tramel said...: so to continue the wackadoo stuff from the other spoiler free(i assume)Widmore Family Circle post

is Jack's son Christian?; December 23, 2009 at 7:57 AM
Greg Tramel said...: it could be a interesting spin on the whole Star Wars i'm your father reveal

maybe the need to kill fathers is to enable the bizarro world grandfather's paradox loop to loophole

by bizarro i mean Jack is his on grandfather

somebody speculated that Dark's hangman "source" is Damon and Carlton, not sure what to make of it but i kinda doubt it; December 23, 2009 at 9:56 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i could see Sayid possibly killing Jack in what they call the alt

but i cold also easily see Sayid dying in 1977 (unless he gets to the temple on time); December 23, 2009 at 1:44 PM
neoloki said...: Jack dies on Island and becomes jacob. It will either be him or Lapidus who acts as Jacob's body.; December 23, 2009 at 1:54 PM
Greg Tramel said...: maybe so since Frank is a candidate

i still kinda like the idea of Flocke(MIB) vs Flocke(Jacob); December 23, 2009 at 1:57 PM
Capcom said...: Would that mean that we have to start calling Jack, "Fry"? :o)

Oh, I hadn't thought about them getting Sayid to the temple on time, that would be neat.; December 23, 2009 at 5:51 PM
lostmio said...: Bigmouth, it's so nice to have a place where we can discuss spoilers without going all batshit about Jack's son.

I'm an longtime huge Dark/Andy fan but his whole Jack's-a-father spoiler came out of nowhere, and we're missing a bunch of context.

Even if Andy and his source are communicating clearly (which has not always been the case,) did Andy ever saying it was a 'son' or that Jack's so-called child is the young teen, portrayed by Dylan whats-his-name, as many posters there are claiming?

Taking Andy at face value: Jack is a father, apparently in some alt uverse. ~big yawn~ but I'll go there. Canon-wise, Jack's done the nasty with 3 women:
1)Kate. Not a candidate, imo, for sooo many reasons, as much as I love the Jate chemistry.
2)Sarah, who was pregnant when we last saw her. The timing would work for it to be Jack's kid, rather than her adulterous lover's.
3)Achara - my favorite candidate for Jack's babymom. Because that would somehat justify that slimy episode. To boot, there's a recent spoiler about some biracial kid(s) being cast.

like I said, ~big yawn~, just had to get that out of the way...; December 23, 2009 at 9:03 PM
neoloki said...: the comment section over there has gotten particularly bad over the last month. At it's best it is a crap shoot from the most ridiculous to seriously brilliant. However, lately it is redundant at it's best and down right absurd the rest of the time. Shipping wars of 200 comments based around a promo or a Sawyer/Kate kiss is the norm. I decided to just stay away from that whole comment section based on the christmas hangman game. Most of that information is so general, without context and open to interpretation that it is next to meaninglessness.

I am grateful for the site though.; December 23, 2009 at 9:12 PM
Capcom said...: I thought that the slimy tattoos were supposed to justify that slimy episode, heheh. Really, there's a spoiler about Jack having a kid? Wow. That's kind of heavy on the spoil-o-meter. Of course many were wondering if Sarah's kid-to-be was Jack's, when she came to pick him up at the hospital. Don't know what I would think of that, but I never gave it much thought to begin with. In an ATL, TPTB might keep them married, if in the ATL Jack doesn't act like a d**che for a change.

Shipper wars? Ugh, poor Dark having to slug through all that on his site. He should just make a tab category for that and ban it from the other subjects.

Have a nice Christmas Eve and Christmas everyone! You all are very special friends to me now, all the best in the New Year too, God bless.; December 24, 2009 at 9:25 AM
neoloki said...: I am not a big christmas person, but I wish everyone a peaceful Noel.

As more spoilers are coming out it seems the depth and ramifications are deepening. Kristens especially. I am surprised she has revealed so much. Given these circumstances I am finding I am wanting to be spoiled less and less, so I think I am going to try to step away from the spoiler page. wish me luck 'cause I will need it, oh and more than a touch of discipline.; December 24, 2009 at 10:02 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: I waffle back and forth on what I read, and not knowing about this son of Jack thing, that is the sort of spoiler that really doesn't matter, even if it does seem major. If it even is, in the long run.

There's that word shipper again. It took me a long time to figure out certain message board abbreviations, but I guess I never got the word shipper as slang because I've really only seen it in relation to LOST and/or the viewers themselves. So if I'm that ignorant about the word, it shows that any surprises about Jack are meaningless for me, spolier-wise.

neoloki, maybe some of the sites (such as Kristen! Online, if I have that correct) are going all out on the spoilers because, face it, this time next year, there won't be any spoilers at all.; December 24, 2009 at 10:53 AM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: And that tattoo episode was titled "Stranger In A Strange Land," which was a novel by Robert Heinlein, who wrote "----All You Zombies-----".

The tattoos translate to something like "He who walks amongst us but is not one of us", right?

And my thoughts on Lapidus, is that he is a candidate to replace Richard Alpert. He is too new a character to end up as Jacob or MIB. No reason to believe that RA will survive S6.; December 24, 2009 at 10:57 AM
neoloki said...: no reason to believe anybody is going to survive season 6. LOL!

It does seem to me that Jacob is the one that needs a body, currently.

as far as the spoilers go, there is so much juicy information given that it is the last season they don't need to try very hard this year.; December 24, 2009 at 11:06 AM
Capcom said...: You're right that's what the tattoo is supposed to mean on the show, as per Mrs.Sherifflady, but the real translation is some Mao quote from a poem of his I think.

I don't know why media writers like to report spoilers either, except maybe in some specific cases of those few who like to feel like bigshots in doing so. But I personally would not want to make TPTB feel betrayed if I were them, since TPTB obviously really care about things not getting out for the final season.; December 24, 2009 at 12:03 PM
WJames said...: Kirsten published new spoiler:

"Here are four true things I can tell you about the New Big Bad.

He:

* Killed **h*.
* Killed ***o*.
* Is *h* **o** *****e*.
* Wants to "g* **m*." "

Some guessed it's killed John, killed Jacob, Is the smoke monster and wants to go home. That last part is very interesting to me. Smoke/MiB/Flockie wants to go home??? Where is home (on some other planet, in another dimension, Australia?)or What is home? Is/Was Jacob stopping him?

Oh and i like all the theories you guys discuss here, I've been reading them for a while now.

Merry Christmas! :); December 24, 2009 at 1:19 PM
neoloki said...: time to unsubscribe, damn.; December 24, 2009 at 1:43 PM
Wayne Allen Sallee said...: Same here, neoloki.; December 25, 2009 at 9:37 AM
lostmio said...: Wayne & Bigmouth: I'm still pondering Smokey's nature and I took your idea of there being a undergound tunnel to the Hydra and ran with it.

I'd long been puzzled by the significance of the Hydra name for that station. My pond-skipping brain and url-skipping keyboard found a connection between the Hydra of Greek mythology and Typhon,whom I've longed believed to the archetypal model for Smokey. Typhon reportedly comes from a greek word meaning smoke, and it was associated with typhoons and volcanoes.

So I think you guys are onto something. Wonder what they were *really* studying in the Hydra? And it's interesting that they had a back-up water release into the Hydra, considering Smokey's not known for being a swimmer.

On a sidenote, Typhon was either created or released when Hera in a rage smote the earth with her hand; imo this is very reminiscient of Juliet's final scene. Hera's big flaw was her jealousy, a la Juliet. She was alternately a protector and a destroyer of childbirth. It'll be ironic if Juliet's action caused the very pregnancy curse that she was trying to overcome.; December 27, 2009 at 11:31 AM
Capcom said...: Very interesting thougts about Hydra and Typhon.

I have also wondered if it was the incident rather than the island that was causing the pregnancy problems. But I got confused when the super-sperm angle came about, and didn't know what to think after that. But yes, it will be weird if TPTB make Juliet a part of the problem that she was hired to repair...another dimension of that circular-circuity thing. :o); December 27, 2009 at 5:13 PM
lostmio said...: While rambling off-topic on the Widmore-Charlie thread, it came to me that Jack's alt son, if there is one, might be important.

I've said before that there's probably a Shephard family line thing that's been in play, in relation to the island. The mobisode episode, The Watch, gave us a symbol for the family line: a watch that was passed from Ray to Christian to Jack and then made a detour of sorts to Aaron, the heir apparent (Jack gave the watch to Hurley to time Claire's contractions).
There's no other explanation, that I can conceive, for that mobisode, which is canon.

So if Jack has an alt son, and if the Shephard dynasty is tied to the island, there's potential for some weighty stuff. There were early spoilers that John Terry early in S5 was given a contract which included an option for his recurring role in S6 so Christian *will* be around.

Not much more to discuss on the issue, except for Christian's insistence in the mobisode that Jack (unlike Christian) had married exactly the right person, which was supported in televised episodes by Christian's attendance at the wedding and general closeness to Sarah. Something that's always puzzled me.

So it may come into play about whether "David" (presumably but not certainly the alt son)or Aaron is the heir apparent.

That's all, back to your regular discussion now, but remember you read this here first.; December 27, 2009 at 6:43 PM
Ian said...: I re-watched The Incident last night, and all of a sudden I'm back to thinking Jacob might not be a good guy.

My first time through, I saw Jacob as helping everyone he "touched" in the episode. Then, yesterday as I was watching it again, I realized nothing good happened after his meetings.

He stopped Kate from having an early run-in with the police, which may have prevented a life of crime.

He handed James the pen to finish the letter he was writing to the man he'd spend decades chasing, and ultimately killing.

He touched Jin and Sun at their wedding - their marriage eventually got so bad that Sun learned English and planned on running away.

He brought Locke back to life... only to spend years in a wheel-chair, then have a few months where he could walk on the island, but as a pawn in a larger game before ultimately being strangled to death by Ben.

He touched Jack after a fight with his father. If anything, after that day the relationship between the two men got nothing but worse - ending with Christian's death after his son turned him in for being drunk on the job.

He stopped Sayid on the corner, causing Nadia to turn back to him in the middle of the street and get hit by a car.

My out-there Season 6 speculation is Jacob turning out to not be the force for good he's been made out to be thus far.

Thoughts?; December 28, 2009 at 7:30 AM
Capcom said...: LOL Lostmio. After the mobisode I was sure confused about Jack and Sarah, and makes me think that their pairing might mean something more than just another of Jack's controlling mistakes. Must...save...girl...so...must...marry...girl. Ugh.

Interesting points Ian. It could be that the Losites had to take the bad with the good, or that those things would have happened to them anyway off the island back in The World, but Jacob needed the Losties on the island no matter what befell. But I'm also waiting for the TPTB to pretzel-twist Jacob's intent into something unexpected as well.; December 28, 2009 at 10:09 AM
Greg Tramel said...: THANKS Lostmio! for adding the Hydra/Typhon synchs, definitely on to something there

like i’ve speculated before i think all of the major 815ers have relatives with islandtime lineage and like you said the Shephard lineage seems to be very important considering we have more Shephards on the island than any other family dynasty

as far as the whole Jack’s (maybe son) is Ray, i just enjoy how it turns the grandfather paradox on it’s head; December 28, 2009 at 10:47 AM
Greg Tramel said...: good points Ian on Jacob leaning towards the evil “side” of the coming war

like i've mentioned before i think that is a key theme in the show wherein definitive good/evil lines aren’t really applicable no matter what color shirt they’re wearing and in a sense Jacob and Samuel (or MIB or Nemesis incarnate or whatever you want to call him) are 2 sides of the same coin (if not parts of the same entity) which in turn makes Locke’s black/white rant out to be mythological; December 28, 2009 at 11:21 AM
Greg Tramel said...: Lostmio & Capcom also remember the flip side of Jack saving and in turn marrying Sarah was the death of Shannon's father & Boone's stepfather, Adam

Jack (Jesus) wants in ihis heart to save everybody but that is a herculian task which Christian wants to impart to his Son; December 28, 2009 at 11:48 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i'm still kinda more baffled with Illana being Jacob's daughter rather than the notion of Ray being Jack's son or even Ray=Jack; December 28, 2009 at 1:35 PM
WJames said...: Okay now, I'll let bygones be bygones
and we can start from the beginning, and can hpoefully be friends :)

I would like to say few things about who/what I think Jacob and MiB are, about Richard Alpert (RA from now on), Black Rock, Island, Losties, basically everything.
Beware, I am a spoiler freak so some of my conclusions may be spoiler based, but nothing to big, as nothing to big escaped from the bag into the great white world. It's the puzzle I combined from the actual show and some outside factors.
Let's get on to it.

I'll start with the big guy -

Jacob, he is obviously a deity of sorts, could be an alien, a being from other dimension, it doesn't matter, what matters is that he is godlike compared to an ordinary human. So he came eons ago from God knows where (other dimension, planet) and finds the Island...Or could it be that he brought the Island with himself, that he came on the Island??? We know that it can move through time/space, so as much i hate to say it, it is possible that the Island is nothing more than a vessel of sorts, capable of transcending dimensions and other realities, a bloody spaceship? Maybe the temple is a power source?
I just remembered that a year ago there was a video of some random guy who worked for ABC or something, who casually commented to some guy who was filming him with a cellphone that the Island is a spaceship, that Locke will cause some shi* and other gibberish. Funny how that doesn't seem so silly to me now. But i digress, so Jacob came eons ago. He met ancient people, felt sympathy for them, called them to come to the Island, taught them stuff. He collected them from all sides of the world (Egypt, India, Australia...). But he realized one thing that tortured him terribly. Humans, so faulty in nature are destined to destroy themselves. So he decided to act, to do the impossible, to save us from destroying ourselves. He saw the potential in us. And his quest to find the right people to help him accomplish that, had begun. I will get back to that later.

Now to say something about the infamous smoke monster, or Cerebrus or Man in Black. All of them one and the same. I don't know if Jacob created Cerebrus to help him guard the Island (Island's security system) or he came with him, with the Island, but i am 100% sure that initially he/it was his subordinate, a servant, a lap dog doing his masters bidding.
That obviously changed as time went by. Cerebrus grew tired of his infinitely patient master, he didn't understand his love for human kind. His logic was if they are so flawed to actually destroy themselves why bother stopping them, let them do it. Also, helping humans didn't fit in his job description of guarding the Island. So he turned on his master, starting an epic battle that will rage for countless years, even more because of the time loop. Which I'll also explain further later. But in that battle he could never directly hurt his former master, and I don't know of a way how Jacob could destroy him.; December 28, 2009 at 7:24 PM
WJames said...: The Others aka Hostiles, are I believe, a group of people who Jacob brought to the Island to help him achieve his goal of saving humanity, and also to take over Smokey's security duties if some uninvited party came crashing on the Island (USA army for example, Losties were intentionally brought). Jacob always communicated only with one man from the group who he deemed special, a leader. Cerebrus managed to exploit that as we know
from s5 finale.
Richard Alpert was a part of the crew from Black Rock who mysteriously found themselves in the middle of the Island when It moved. Based on the spoilers *don't read if you don't want to know*, i think RA met with Cerebrus first, and it got him to try to kill Jacob. But he failed and Cerebrus probably mortally wounded him as a punishment for his failure. So RA turned to Jacob and promised him his undying loyalty if he helps him. Jacob accepted and healed him, with an ageless side-effect, not full immortality. And that is the story of Richard Alpert, not that impressive if I may say. I don't get it why he is such a fan favourite. Nestor is a good actor but he didn't get much range to play in the acting department. Because of the eyeliner??? :)

Now to go back to the right people Jacob needed to avert the world ending scenario. They are the "touched" Losties. As I said there is a time loop, and that world ending scenario played out many times, but there was always Jacob who continually used the Island to reset the timeline, every time changing it little by little. What we are seeing is the final, ultimate iteration of the Lost timeline. One in which Cerebrus thought that he had finally beaten Jacob by finding a loophole in Locke, who was a declared leader of the others. Without Jacob, the course of things can happen as it is suppose to, mankind destroys itself and Cerebrus gets to go home. :)
But it obviously can't end up like that. Now this is the part we'll get to see in s6, how exactly Jacob played con in a con on his former servant, now adversary.
What is the purpose of his touching Jack, Locke, Sawyer, Kate, Sun/Jin, Sayid and Hurley? Maybe 6 of them are the variables, the numbers? We'll see. But they are Jacob's chosen ones, meant to finish his quest, and they are coming from the 1977 timeline alive (which i believe wasn't the case in many other iterations).

I am too sleepy to post what i think about the Dharma Inintiative, Widmore, Desmond, etc. Maybe tomorrow. looking forward to reading your comments.

Peace and love, Namaste!

WJames; December 28, 2009 at 7:24 PM
lostmio said...: Ian, there's been much discusson on forums re the points you raise.

The consensus is - Jacob was nudging each of them to the island:
Kate as fugitive, James on a vengeance quest, Sun/Jin tiff & make-up at the airport, Locke in the wheelchair, Jack tracking down Christian in SYD, no Nadia to keep Sayid in LA, and Hurley needed a more direct suggestion.

Jacob needed/wanted these particular folks on the island. He didn't interefere with their free will, just gave them a nudge and hoped it would all turn out.

I'm not saying Jacob's "good", just that his nudges don't in any way support the idea that he's "bad".; December 28, 2009 at 8:18 PM
Ian said...: Ah, sorry I totally missed the forum discussion(s) - that definitely would make sense, though.; December 29, 2009 at 5:20 AM
Greg Tramel said...: EXCELLENT summations WJames

we've wondered if Jacob is a fallen angel, maybe Lucifer, or kinda half man/angel Nephilim, or a Shining One from Sirius, or a more enlightened human from another dimension

and you're right he could have very well been brought to earth via the island but i'm kinda hoping the island is not a spaceship but the donkey wheel does seem like some kind of navigation device so we will see

we've considered the island is maybe a meteorite that hit earth with Jacob in tow, i see it more as a manifestation of a pastiche of mythical places like Agartha, Eden, Valhalla, Narnia, Nibiru, Oz, Shambhala, Shangri La, Lemuria, Mu, Atlantis, Hell, Thule, Purgatory, Summerland, Underworld and so forth so for me i don't expect an answer to how the island exists and how Jacob got connected to the island and in turn the earth; December 29, 2009 at 6:54 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i'm a bit baffled by Desmond being on 815 and them seeing the Taweret outside the plane window

i don’t think the S1 815 crash brought down the statue plus i didn’t think you could actually view the island and anything on it directly from earth

i suppose the plane could have entered the island dimension for a brief time but then got out of it or something like that

i suppose like some of y'all said the only answer may be a parallel universe; December 29, 2009 at 7:14 AM
Greg Tramel said...: also WJames, i like the analogy of Cerberus initially being Jacob's best friend (dog); December 29, 2009 at 7:19 AM
lostmio said...: Greg said "a manifestation of a pastiche of mythical places like Agartha, Eden, Valhalla, Narnia, Nibiru, Oz, Shambhala, Shangri La, Lemuria, Mu, Atlantis, Hell, Thule, Purgatory, Summerland, Underworld and so forth"

with a huge chunk of Delos mythology going on, too, methinks..; December 29, 2009 at 9:05 AM
Greg Tramel said...: ah! thanks Lostmio, another one, i had to look Delos up because i've never heard of it before

definitely have to throw some Greek place into the mix to mingle with Apollo, Hydra, Typhon, Cerberus, Penelope, doric columns ....; December 29, 2009 at 9:19 AM
Capcom said...: I'd like the Jacob-on-the-asteroid scenario to be in play somehow, since the Little Prince. Won't be disappointed if it didn't, but I could go with that if it does. Since those ideas were first put forth in the show, it always made me think of Roger Dean's ('Yes' album covers) floating islands in space. That concept was also done well I thought in the 'Hatch' poster. I really wanted that poster, boohoo.

I agree that we've been led to believe that the island can't be seen unless you somehow get through the barrier/storm like Naomi did, as she explained her experience.; December 29, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Greg Tramel said...: oh yeah capcom, i'd forgotten about The Little Prince

i'll go along with asteroid but i'll cry foul if it is spaceship, not because of any evidence or plausibility, it’s just i prefer something other than aliens(s) in a spaceship(island) for the Lost story; December 29, 2009 at 10:22 AM
Capcom said...: Well if it could be a kind of original Battlestar Galactica thing, where Jacob/MIB and the asteroid/spaceship might be a part of a larger "ragtag team" (heheh, couldn't resist) of ships or planetary chunks that branched out across space, that could be done. Then they wouldn't have to be aliens, but just evolved or mutated brethren of earthlings somehow.

Or if the island/asteroid and earth are a part of a larger planet that got separated via collision......nah, that's too complicated. But it's a way around the alien thing, if Jacob/MIB are extraterrestrial in a way.

But the way that Jacob and MIB speak of the progress of humans, it seems detached and observational, so they probably aren't related to us I'd guess.; December 29, 2009 at 10:41 AM
lostmio said...: Greg, curiously, you didn't include the Delos phallic statue.
Surely I'm not all alone in thinking it played at least a small part in inspiring the foot statue?; December 29, 2009 at 9:50 PM
Bigmouth said...: There's an interesting tidbit that could support our longstanding speculation that Miles will read the mind of Locke's corpse to learn about Ben's murder.; December 31, 2009 at 9:25 AM
Greg Tramel said...: yeah!, y'all were SPOT ON about Miles' purpose; December 31, 2009 at 9:41 AM
Greg Tramel said...: Lostmio, thanks for sharing the Delos statue, this is the 1st time i've ever seen it (even though i have an art history background), guess i need to get off my Egyptian kick for awhile and get my Greek on; December 31, 2009 at 9:52 AM
Capcom said...: Where's the tidbit, where's the tidbit?!

LOL, I never saw that in Art History class either.; December 31, 2009 at 11:49 AM
Greg Tramel said...: here's the tidbit Capcom, since they mention Hurley's gift as well i supsect, as y'all have said, Hurley is gonna see dead people in S6

"According to insiders, Miles (Ken Leung)—who, remember, gets messages from the dead and not full-on visions/visits à la Hurley (Jorge Garcia)—may carry a message from a dead character on Lost in the upcoming season."; December 31, 2009 at 1:32 PM
Capcom said...: Tx. Where did that come from, DarkUFO?; December 31, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Greg Tramel said...: does Keamy and Mikhail working together only happen in the alt reality or did they also work together S1-5?; January 3, 2010 at 5:08 PM
Capcom said...: When did they work together?; January 4, 2010 at 8:29 AM
Greg Tramel said...: capcom, in S6 Mikhial and Keamy are "supposed" to be working together according to spoilers, i was just wondering if they worked together in S1-5 and we did not see it

actually, i never expected in a million to see Keamy again in S6; January 4, 2010 at 10:19 AM
Capcom said...: Ohhhhhh, I didn't hear about that. Interesting. No, as far as I can remember, there was no link between them in S1-5. We speculated about Kelvin and Patchy, but that's about it.; January 4, 2010 at 2:51 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i suppose since Desmond is on 815 this time it has to be a parallel universe

but i can't remember, do we know for sure the plane in S6 is in 2004 in the parallel timeframe similar to 815?; January 5, 2010 at 10:57 AM
Bigmouth said...: Greg, did you catch the spoiler about them seeing the statute in the premier? Leaving aside the continuity issues (i.e., why they're in proximity to the Island if they never turn back to land in Fiji) this strikes me as a potentially major clue. It implies (1) that the Island DOES exist in the Comic-Con reality, and (2) that the reset extends even further back in time to when the statue was destroyed.

Since we know the statue was destroyed some time AFTER the Black Rock's arrival, it seems that Jacob's Loop begins at that time, too.; January 5, 2010 at 11:05 AM
Greg Tramel said...: yes, seeing the statue from the plane seems really strange for a couple of reasons including how are they in the earthly plane and in the island "realm" at the same time

anyway, something just doesn't quite sit right with me that we are going to see a parallel universe in S6 (or a tangent universe that began at least before black rock)

BUT i don't have another answer at this point; January 5, 2010 at 11:16 AM
Ian said...: Not sure if its significant or not, but unless I'm remembering wrong the spoiler said the statue would be "seen" from flight 815. "Seen" in quotations, to me, implies that it won't be someone physically seeing the statue, but more of a... mental flash.

Perhaps getting visions of the S1-5 timeline while on the flight and seeing the other Losties?; January 5, 2010 at 11:33 AM
Greg Tramel said...: ah! Ian, GOOD POINT on what "seen" means

and since they are calling it 815 i suppose they are implying it is the same S1 815 (but with the additoin of Des)or a parallel Jacob's loop S1 815; January 5, 2010 at 11:45 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i guess what i'm trying to conjure is more in line with Miles' statement that they are always in their present no matter what year it is and to go along with Ian's comment that they either remember their on S1-5 island lives or at least get glimpses of their on island experiences

so they are on 815 again in 2004 but they have also already lived through 1 version 2004-2009

so instead of a tangent or parallel it is all just one long timeline; January 5, 2010 at 12:08 PM
Bigmouth said...: Ian: Interesting suggestion! My question would be why. The virtue of them actually seeing the statue from the plane is that it helps clarify the alternate nature of Comic-Con reality vs. the S1-5 reality very neatly. What message would they be conveying by showing a flash of the statue?; January 5, 2010 at 1:55 PM
Ian said...: Good question BigMouth. I'm not 100% confident, but if I had to venture a guess I would say that it could be used to echo the ability of consciousness to bleed from one timeline into another a la Desmond's "reliving" of past events while consciousness hopping. Maybe. I guess.

*sigh*

Why isn't it Feb 2nd yet?

I'm not sure seeing the statue in one piece would be needed to clinch the alt timeline. I think 815 not crashing in and of itself is a case closed on that, and another pass at it before the plane even lands would be unnecessary.; January 5, 2010 at 2:03 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i suppose in the S6 reality, the island could actually be a regular island on earth

otherwise how would they see it from a plane window from a plane that will go on to land in LAX?; January 5, 2010 at 2:40 PM
Greg Tramel said...: plus wouldn't having Desmond on the plane be enough to indicate this is not the exact same 815 flight we saw in S1? (in addtion to 815 not crashing); January 5, 2010 at 2:43 PM
Greg Tramel said...: maybe as a result of the incident and/or jughead detonating is the island becomes a fixed actual place on earth; January 5, 2010 at 2:47 PM
Capcom said...: Do we know for sure that the 815 in the statue spoiler is the one that will make it to LA? TPTB might also show us yet another crash scenario, and someone sees the statue on the way down. I mean, TPTB did show us that darn pier sequence 4 or 5 times. But I'm just taking a guess at how the statue could be seen from the plane.

If the best fan maps that agree with each other can be believed, 815 shot over the northest point of the island and Otherville, down across the west beach, and over the statue area, towards where the fuselage landed in the south. Smartypants Kate said that she remembered everything on the way down after it broke up, so maybe she's the one who sees the statue, if her side of the plane crosses over the beach there. ???

Im just brainstorming here, not really arguing any particular point per se.; January 5, 2010 at 4:10 PM
Capcom said...: Meant to type 'northwest', not 'northest'.

:-B; January 5, 2010 at 4:11 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i suppose we don't know for sure the statue seeing & Des riding 815 lands in LAX but i would speculate most likely they are one and the same

guess we will just have to wait and see how that goes down

i suppose i prefer for the S6 alt (or whatever we want to call them) characters to at least have some awareness of their S1-5 counterparts

maybe alt Kate will wave to Kate on island when they fly over; January 5, 2010 at 4:23 PM
MikeNY said...: As Big suggests there's good narrative value in the contrast between the standing statue and foot.

I like the whackadoo scenario where Jack's crew flashes to the present and the bomb flashes to moments after the Jacob/MiB conversation, farther offshore than the Black Rock. Boom, earthquake, tsunami, fractured statue, landlocked ship with injured crew for MiB to manipulate.

OTOH, if the detonation wrecks the statue in '77, it would dovetail with the birth problems.; January 5, 2010 at 4:23 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i get the narration of seeing the complete statue, it just doesn't seem to jive with what we've been told about seeing/finding the island but maybe that is no longer applicable in the S6 reality (or was always wrong all along)

i suppose another scenario could be it is 2004 aboard 815 but the island is at 1800 when 815 flys over

island Jack and Co may also be on 1800 island; January 5, 2010 at 4:46 PM
Capcom said...: Oh wow, that's like the Twilight Zone ep where the airliner goes through the weird cloud and ends up back in prehistoric times. Yeah!; January 5, 2010 at 5:32 PM
MikeNY said...: Greg —

Perhaps the detonation/flash moved the island (geographically). Hence, without that jump it would have been passing by 815's normal flight path.

But, yeah, I don't get the whole "seen" thing either :); January 5, 2010 at 8:59 PM
Nicky said...: Isn't it possible that the "complete" statue and the "foot-only" statue are two different realities in the same time slice, rather than two different time slices in the same reality?; January 6, 2010 at 2:18 AM
Greg Tramel said...: maybe Hurley "sees" the statue and to go along with the rest of the spoiler he "sees" dead Jacob on 815; January 6, 2010 at 6:12 AM
MikeNY said...: Nicky — I think you've got it exactly right.

Greg — sure, though I'm still not sure how they'd overcome the fact that they should be, minimally, thousands of miles above the statue.

Maybe the camera drops from an exterior of 815 to statue far below. Hmm...; January 6, 2010 at 6:21 AM
Greg Tramel said...: yes Nicky, it is hard to definitively say what kind of multiverse/spacetime we're dealing with until all is said and done

so 2 different universes in the same timespace may be a possibility; January 6, 2010 at 6:23 AM
MikeNY said...: The new Sawyer spoiler is quite something.

Either MiB wants off, or his a promise of leaving is his means of conning Sawyer.; January 6, 2010 at 6:24 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i think Sawyer is pretty distraught about Juliet (also indicated by his dissing of Kate in another spoiler) so he goes to the dark side and teams up with MIB

and a MIB con conning the con man should make a good story

MIB uses Sawyer to fulfill his desire to go home (like the other spoiler indicated)

i guess MIB's home IS off island; January 6, 2010 at 6:45 AM
Greg Tramel said...: MikeNY, i mean Hurley sees the complete statue like he sees dead people so he is not actually looking out the window seeing the statue; January 6, 2010 at 6:50 AM
lostmio said...: I'm expecting to see a close call over the island for 815... from which the pilot will recover and go on to LAX.
So maybe the passengers do "see" the statue. However, it works just as well if there's a cut from the statue to the plane, or from the plane down to the statue.

The point of course is that safe 815 and the statue exist in the same reality.; January 6, 2010 at 7:17 AM
MikeNY said...: If the MiB really does want off, and if off is literally his "home," well...

The prisoner scenario has been entertained several times before, but I'm really curious about the larger, symbolic implications.

Damon, and now the hang man source, have indicated that Jacob (earlier the "Man-in-White," according to Damon) and MiB are personifications or representations of the light and dark (or white and black) sides.

So, then light has been suppressing dark, or dark has been trapped and light has been a watchful bystander?

Is Widmore assembling a sonar fence after his nightmares revealed him trapping "Locke" in the future?

Greg — I think you might be right on; still, there seems to be some value in showing the literal statue, per lostmio's post.; January 6, 2010 at 7:37 AM
Greg Tramel said...: ok, i'm all for seeing the statue

things seem to be really falling into place

maybe the enlightened one(Jacob, aka MIW) is in constant struggle with the dark forces in trying to make progress to the only one end of The Omega Point, so it is a constant struggle of bait and trap and MIB wants to get back off island to spread his darkness

maybe the whole point of the island is to trap the universe's dark side

BTW, have y'all found Kristen's "spoilers" to be just a tad silly?; January 6, 2010 at 7:57 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Hello gang! Been out of the loop for a few weeks.

Don't know if there has been any discussion here about the picture of the Champagne cork popping posted over at DarkUFO. There will apparently be a discussion between Jacob and Richard where that image will be used as an analogy to explain a key concept of the show.

Many universes bubbling up anyone? This analogy has actually been around for a few years, most notably used by Stephen Hawking's nemesis, Leonard Susskind.

Universe 'like a bottle of champagne'

So, possibly more evidence that the so-called "alt" reality we will see in the upcoming season is not a reset/do-over of the Losties we have been watching for five years. Its likely to be a different bubble of reality altogether. I'm clinging to the thought that we will see both the original Jack and gang post-Jughead and the alt crew land in LA X...

BTW - Susskind's proposal, with the possibility of there being upwards of 10^500 universes spawned by the uncorking of the big bang, dovetails with something I was already thinking about in terms of the show. In the "Widmore is his own grandpa" thread Big brings up Robert Heinlein's "-All You Zombies-". Has anyone read Heinlein's "Number of the Beast"? Using a four spurred caltrop to squeeze in six dimensions (3 spatial and 3 timelike for symmetry), Heinlein comes up with three sixes - (6^6)6 or 10,314,424,798,490,535,546,171,949,056 - as the number of parallel universes out there. I've been trying to work out a similar concept to Heinlein's caltrop with the Lost numbers, particularly the eight spoked image that has been widely prevalent - the FDW, compass roses, Juliet's mark of shame, the background of Dexter Stratton's ring upon which his initials are set, etc. Unfortunately, my math skills wane considerably once I run out of fingers and toes.; January 6, 2010 at 8:15 AM
Greg Tramel said...: thanks for linking the champagne theory netprophet, i've never heard of it before

it is similar to many worlds theories and like with many worlds theory i've heard things like the statement below but i don't adhere to it

"It will never be possible for us to communicate with another bubble universe, say physicists"; January 6, 2010 at 8:44 AM
Bigmouth said...: Greg: I think you're overthinking it just a bit. (Not that this is any great sin on EyeMSick!) The new guy on the plane is Desmond. He's there because he never crashed on the Island. As a result, when Oceanic 815 passes by the Island, Des isn't there to cause the crash.

Seeing the statue is important not just because it establishes they're in an alternate reality. It also suggests WHEN the two realities fork -- i.e., around the time of the Black Rock's arrival. That event is the beginning of Jacob's Loop, and another key to the events we've seen depicted in S1-5. That's presumably why spoilers indicate some of our Losties will arrive as prisoners on the Black Rock.

Netprophet: Very cool! But you're a pretty sharp guy, and if the math eludes you, odds are it will everyone else. I think the champagne bottle metaphor will simply be used by Jacob to explain MIB/Smokey -- i.e., as a genie (or Jin) in a bottle. I also think it will link back to the Island's electromagnetism. There have been a number of allusions along these lines, including Charlie cracking the wasp nest and Kelvin's reference to plugging a dam.

Speaking of which, this might link back to the idea we've kicked around that the Incident somehow released Smokey. In which case, the sonic fence would be a preemptive measure put in place by someone who knew the Incident would happen. Could that someone be Jacob?; January 6, 2010 at 9:16 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i take overthinking as a compliment

Big, your scenario makes sense; January 6, 2010 at 9:23 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Greg Tramel:

How about -
"It will never be possible for us to communicate with another bubble universe" say physicists who don't have access to a convenient pocket of exotic matter. I believe the same concepts that would let you warp spacetime coordinates and allow for time travel could also possibly be used for warping other dimensions and accordingly travel from bubble to bubble.

Whatever the case, I'm fully on board with TPTB going the mutliverse route, and I'm suspecting that the Island may some sort of nexus and/or Jacob can navigate through different realities. Maybe we're mistaken in thinking Jacob is a 4-D being. It could be more like 6-D, 8-D or even 42-D!

Another point of interest is that such an approach could actually validate WHH as it applies in each distinct bubble. A corollary to the many worlds approach is that each separate world has its own fixed, block universe. And how about this for a Lostian idea:

It might come as a surprise that this orthodox "block universe" view of time in fact leads us to conclude that we possess a form of eternal life! This is a consequence of the principle that in the block time model all periods of time are equally real. If a loved one dies, you might take some comfort from the knowledge that this period of time in which your loved one is dead has, in fact, no greater reality than the time when your loved one was alive. According to physics, it is just as valid to consider your loved one as alive as it is to consider them dead!

Einstein took comfort from this knowledge when his lifelong friend Michele Besso died. He wrote a letter consoling Besso's family: "Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

from Cosmology, Quantum Gravity and the Block Universe by Andrew Thomas; January 6, 2010 at 9:26 AM
Greg Tramel said...: works for me NetProphet and thanks for laying another new concept, block universe, on us (at least it's new for me)

i've got some time traveling multiverses studying to do; January 6, 2010 at 9:34 AM
neoloki said...: NetProphet

great post. all of that is stuff I have been posting on different sites. The Island as nexus, lynch pin a la DT, Jacob using the ALT to counter MIB's loophole, etc, al. or maybe this stuff has just been bubbling up from deep recesses of memory from all of Big's great theories. Ah originality, it is a modern contrivance.; January 6, 2010 at 10:59 AM
neoloki said...: Big

we probably already discussed this but the Losties as prisoners on the Black Rock was an unconfirmed rumor, but hey one never knows and it would be impressive to see TPTB pull that off narratively.; January 6, 2010 at 11:03 AM
Bigmouth said...: Neo: Right, that was just a rumor. But I'm confident we will see some of our Losties in Black Rock times, even if they aren't prisoners on the ship.; January 6, 2010 at 11:06 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Bigmouth:

Alas, you're probably right. Points for the old college try though, right? (I must admit that I read some of my posts and in retrospect wonder what sort of whack job cospiracy theorist I am becoming! Only cure: new episodes of Lost, stat!)

I certainly also like the uncorking analogy as it may relate to the Swan. You may remember zombie_soiree from over in the numbers forums. He noted right after the Incident aired that Pierre Chang resoundingly told Radzinsky and crew that if they didn't stop drilling "all Hell will break loose." Evil portent indeed. Has Pandora's box ever been mentioned on the show?

You've got me thinking back to the possible trinity/three headed nature of Smokey (Cerberus, of course). We know some aspect of the monster was roaming wild when 815 crashed. Could that have been some partial element released in the Incident of 1977? (BTW - I really like the idea about the pre-emptive sonic fence, as well as the implication that Jacob may have had some connection to DHARMA being present.)

So maybe Old Smokey was crippled/dumb/unwhole until the Swan implosion. Might be interesting to analyze the acitivity of Smokey, also knowing he is also part MiB, afterwards. For example, after having previously reacted rather benignly towards Mr. Eko, doesn't Smokey abruptly eliminate him shortly afterwards?

Hmmm, all of a sudden I am wondering what happened to Locke in the implosion - losing his voice and all.; January 6, 2010 at 11:08 AM
Bigmouth said...: Net: Totally agree re Pandora's box. Hence Lenny's admonishment that Hurley "opened to box," and Ben's comment about a "magic box" on the Island.

As for Mr. Eko, I think Smokey's change of heart is explained by two things: (1) Eko was unwilling to submit, and (2) his purpose (i.e., delaying the Swan implosion long enough to alert Penny's observation station) had already been served.; January 6, 2010 at 11:24 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Neoloki:

What can I say - great/twisted minds think alike. I certainly can't claim to be the first with any of those ideas. I probably picked up most of them from reading your posts elsewhere without realizing it - I do recall a detailed theory involving Dark Tower that may have been yours.

Anyhow Neo, I think we also agree that a step across multiverses could be Jacob's ultimate countermove to MiB. One thought I had was Jacob possibly using Jack and gang to recruit alt reality versions of themselves onto the Island. Jacob's "they're coming" could be these replacement players coming onto the game board for the guys who got stuck in 1977, or something like that.

One thing that still leaves me puzzled is if we do end up with a mutliverse situation is how TPTB will explain all the SpOOky little tweaks in reality they have portrayed, such as the infamous changing picture frame. I think it would be almost impossible to show that this whole story has been playing out over multiple realities that we have been cutting back and forth between the whole time. Talk about narrative nightmares! Not one or even two Jacks, but umpteen million mulling about barely discernably different universes. (For those keeping track, I'm still secretly holding out hope for dear old retrocausality to be involved. Yeah - as if that will be simple to explain!; January 6, 2010 at 11:39 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Big:

I had totally forgotten about Lenny! I did remember the "magic box" thing, but I avoid bringing it up because someone always then feels the need to point out it was meant metaphorically.

I forget - did we talk before about Eko possibly having been considered as a vessel for Smokey/MiB? I agree that he could have once been a candidate that was ultimately deemed too assertive for Smokey to manipulate. Poor old sucker, "man of faith" Locke certainly fit the bill though. (Am I too cynical about the faith thing?)

In any event, just trying to clarify - do you agree that parts of Smokey may have been unleashed at different times? We certainly didn't see him acting up in the admittedly brief trip to 1954. And other than the oblique reference by Richard to the sonic fence in 1974, it seems that DHARMA roamed about the Island without any apparent difficulty up to 1977 at least. By 1988, however, Rousseau had a much different experience.; January 6, 2010 at 11:59 AM
neoloki said...: Net

A true multiverse could only be explained by inference and a few strategically placed details. The rest will be for us to piece together. I am half expecting Faraday to pop up in the ALT with some kind of awareness of the big picture, or even Desmond (did you hear about his centric? ep 11), to lay out a rough outline of the structure of space/time in a Many World Lost. Some of it could be done visually.

Anyway, more later..sleep is necessary for a old man like me.; January 6, 2010 at 12:07 PM
Capcom said...: Wow, busy thinkers today! Nice work everyone.; January 6, 2010 at 2:01 PM
MikeNY said...: Polarity shift?

Maybe the MiB wants to switch places with the MiW.

Jacob, dead, can now appear as a white monster. And the MiB finds a recipient (whether zygote, fetus, or older) for his actual resurrection.

(I think Aaron as the recipient, as Big long ago surmised, is less probable now that we've seen him behaving normally while the MiB exists the island.)

And the fence is to control Jacob, not Smokey.; January 6, 2010 at 3:35 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Just pondering Bigmouth's idea about Jacob being responsible for the sonic fence around the barracks, as well as MikeNY's proposal that the fence was actually there to control Jacob, not Smokey. Can anything be read into the Others' decision to take up occupancy of the former DHARMAville after the purge? Per Locke, this was certainly at odds with what the Others should have known about living there:
"...you're cheating! You and your people. Communicate with the outside world whenever you want to, you... you come and go as you please... you use electricity and running water and guns... You're a hypocrite! A pharisee. You don't deserve to be on this island. If you had any idea what this place really was... you wouldn't be putting chicken in your refrigerator!"

Notably, Widmore was leader when the Others moved into the barracks. As we've seen from the spoiler pics that started this thread, Widmore certainly appears to have a good grasp of how to use the sonic tech against Flocke/Smokey.

In any event, I continue to wonder exactly when the communications breakdown with Jacob started. Did Jacob and MiB both suffer a setback as a result of their clash where MiB got trapped....
RANDOM SYNAPSE FIRING ALERT: What if Jacob trapped MiB by having his physical body killed (maybe by RA) and then somehow took MiB's essence into himself? (A joinder of two thirds/aspects of a trinity?) And maybe the setup with the secluded cabin was necessary to keep them both locked away safely and away from other potential hosts for MiB, but greatly limited Jacob's ability to communicate with his own people. Have to think on this some more.

Misc. Champagne bottle note:
"If I could save time in a bottle..."; January 7, 2010 at 8:13 AM
Bigmouth said...: Mike, can you say a bit more what you mean by the sonic fence controlling Jacob?; January 7, 2010 at 9:09 AM
MikeNY said...: I like the idea that a dead MiB appears as black smoke, and a dead Jacob might appear as white smoke.

If Charles has switched allegiances, he might want smokey-Jacob trapped on one side while the MiB performs the actions/rituals necessary for escape in a legitimate body — like a rebirth — on the other.

Whackadoo: Wouldn't it be wild of Charles brought along the kids?; January 7, 2010 at 10:17 AM
neoloki said...: for the record, we don't know what allegiance Charles has and to whom. We have just always assumed he was bad, mostly from information Ben has given us.
Also, it was Ben who moved The Others into the barracks. I wonder if this was a decision that was supported by the group.; January 7, 2010 at 10:31 AM
Capcom said...: I never assumed that Widmore was bad...just a jerkus-maximus.; January 7, 2010 at 11:31 AM
Bigmouth said...: Do you guys remember that pic of fLocke on the beach with Widmore and the portable sonic fence? In view of the recent spoiler that MIB may want off the Island, could Widmore be using the sonic fence posts to prevent MIB's exit?; January 7, 2010 at 11:33 AM
neoloki said...: Too many what if's there Big. Is Locke still Mib? Is Locke the smoke monster now? are they the same if so have they "separated" some how?; January 7, 2010 at 11:43 AM
MikeNY said...: Big — absolutely. I think he means to contain some smoke.; January 7, 2010 at 11:49 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Bigmouth:

That was part of what I was getting at in my last post. Widmore obviously knew about and may have used the sonic fence for his own protection before he got exiled. Now he appears to come back and confront fLocke using the same technology. But does Widmore want to block him, capture him, or just strike some sort of deal with him. Charles strikes me as the kind of guy who only takes one side - his own. Maybe he is willing to transport fLocke in exchange for the return of "his" island.; January 7, 2010 at 11:52 AM
Greg Tramel said...: Smokey phone home?; January 7, 2010 at 11:58 AM
neoloki said...: Widmore has a group of scientists with him on the Island, so his knowledge of how to use the miny pylons is questionable.
previos hangman spoiler says" the smoke monster NOW played by Terry O'Quinn". I realize the easy answer here is that MIB/Smokie are the same, however given the somewhat vague use of "now" and the opened ended questions as to what is Smokie and even MIB, i feel it is still a big leap to make.; January 7, 2010 at 12:03 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Neoloki:

My point isn't that Widmore himself knows how to create and use the sonic technology - just that he would know it is effective against the smoke monster. That he brings it with him as well as a group of scientists who can set it up for him speaks volumes. If he was just facing some ordinary human foe he could probably just go get more mercs like Keamy. But he specifically brings the portable sonic fence, which just happens to be quite useful when it comes to smokey beasts.

Between the above, the info about Terry O. now being Smokey, and the dialog in the Incident, I don't think its that bbig a reach to assume fLocke = Smokey = MiB at this point.; January 7, 2010 at 12:28 PM
neoloki said...: what dialogue are you speaking of?; January 7, 2010 at 12:36 PM
MikeNY said...: Netprophet —

That's brilliant idea — Charles acting for himself... almost like a ref, to stretch the metaphor.

I wonder if he'll reveal the content of his visions in that meeting with fLocke.; January 7, 2010 at 12:38 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Neoloki:

I'm talking about the opening and closing scenes of the Incident. MiB first reminds Jacob about how much he wants to kill him. He states someday he will find a loophole that will let him do it, and jacob says When you do, I'll be right here" with Giant Foot in the background. When fLocke show up at said Giant Foot with Ben in tow, Jacob realies he is not dealing with the real Locke and says "Well I guess you found your loophole." Pretty much case closed that fLocke = MiB.

There are also clues in Dead is Dead that fLocke is really the Smoke Monster, which coincides pretty nicely with the info that Terry O. is playing Smokey now. So Terry O. = Smokey = fLocke = MiB. Again, the sonic fence as employed by Widmore on his return reinforces this.

MikeNY:

Thanks. There are always two sides in war, and there are also always exploiters and profiteers that play off both sides. Alvar Hanso seems to come to mind as an example.; January 7, 2010 at 1:22 PM
neoloki said...: obviously on flocke=mib, but as the disappearance of flocke when smokie showed up as clues we have the conversation between flocke and ben where flocke had no idea what smokie said to him.

I'll leave it there as you, and everyone else, is most likely right. I just find it a bit vague right
now and don't think it will be as cut and dry as MIB=Smokie. The relationship between the two will be much more complicated.; January 7, 2010 at 1:27 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: Neoloki:

Admittedly, as the title of his thread notes, just speculation. We'll all know for sure soon enough.

As for fLocke having no idea what Smokey said to Ben, I would guess that this was a bit of a show to keep Ben buying into the con. If fLocke knew what happened in the Temple without being told, Ben could get suspicious and start wondering why Alex was so adamant about him obeying Locke's every command.; January 7, 2010 at 1:34 PM
neoloki said...: my view on it was the con wasn't for Ben but for Richard. Ben's knowledge of who flocke really was at that point wouldn't have mattered much as he had already accepted the threat from Smokie as such flocke being Smokie wouldn't have made the threat any less dire. Also, flocke's reaction seemed naturally surprised.

that is just my two cents and won't be surprised either way, nor disappointed.; January 7, 2010 at 1:45 PM
Greg Tramel said...: just because:

Terry O = Smokey
Terry O = MIB
Terru O = Focke
MIB = Flocke

does not nrecessarly mean:

Smokey = MIB; January 7, 2010 at 2:19 PM
neoloki said...: thanks greg. i am generally alone in the woods on that one. lol!; January 7, 2010 at 2:22 PM
MikeNY said...: To go back a bit and throw out some more speculation...

I think it stands to reason that the bifurcation of the timeline/universe should occur at the earliest moment to which the time-travelers return.

One scenario:

Time-travel flash to 1800s
* Jughead detonates offshore, causing tsunami, fracturing statue, depositing Black Rock
* Sawyer and Juliet appear somewhere on the island. They kiss. She dies.
* Jack and Hurley appear elsewhere, possibly near the lighthouse.
* The remaining time-travelers flash to the hold of the Black Rock as the bomb detonates. They're then treated as prisoners (Jin being #42), and they're saved from MiB's wrath by another flash.

Installation and turning of the wheel, or some reverberant release of energy flashes all of the time-travelers back to present time.

Importantly, it would be at the moment just prior to the detonation that the timelines split. That way the causal paradoxes that begin immediately afterward are encapsulated in the timeline we've seen, while the alt timeline is left paradox-free.; January 7, 2010 at 3:20 PM
neoloki said...: the speculation isn't really consistent with any of the spoilers we have read so far. I doubt we will see the 1800's until episode 9.; January 7, 2010 at 10:40 PM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: MikeNY:

Nice speculations! I really like the idea of the Jughead detonation flashing back to the 1800's. I'm fully on board with a singular event toppling the statue as well as washing the Black Rock into the Dark Territory, and the atomic tsunami you propose would fit the bill.

I forget - is the stuff about a Kwon being prisoner #42 classified as "spoiler" or less trustworthy "rumor"?; January 8, 2010 at 7:26 AM
f/k/a NetProphet said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; January 8, 2010 at 7:26 AM
MikeNY said...: Neoloki — True. I think it would be simpler — and frankly more probable — if they would just flash everyone to the present. But, while a bit nuts, I don't think it's technically inconsistent...

NetProphet — I think the one Kwon being "42" was from a hangman.; January 8, 2010 at 7:41 AM
Capcom said...: That would be a nice way to escort us back to the 1800s, I'd like that a lot.; January 8, 2010 at 7:52 AM
neoloki said...: kwon as 42 was the spoiler and not prisoner. the losties as prisoners was a rumor based on somebodies conjecture about a bunch of different actors being at filming location of the Black Rock which had more to do with all the scenes being shot in the same place then in the same "time" on the show.; January 8, 2010 at 8:40 AM
neoloki said...: MikeNY

The Losties are going to flash to some time period, most likely post 2004, but we won't see the 1800 until Richards flashback. It would be inconsistent not to reveal the Black Rock with Richard Alpert in the 1800's. That is vital. However, I am all behind and singular event happening in the 1800's that creates the ALT and destroys Taweret and kills MIB.; January 8, 2010 at 8:47 AM
Bigmouth said...: Mike: That's what I'm hoping too -- they flash to Black Rock times.

NetP: It was originally listed as a spoiler, but was moved to rumors because the source may have misunderstood what he/she was seeing.

Neo: Do we know for sure what time period those encounters at the Temple with Jacob and Dogen take place? They presumably can't take place in the present because Jacob is dead.; January 8, 2010 at 9:00 AM
neoloki said...: yeah, Big, I was just thinking the same. I can't, and no one can, place the time period those spoilers came from.

I just feel that they will save Richard and the Black Rock and the 1800's for a big reveal half way through the season and if they place the Losties in the 1800's at the beginning of the season they will have to do a lot of tip toeing through the story line.; January 8, 2010 at 9:16 AM
Bigmouth said...: Ah, excellent point about not giving up the big Richard reveal too soon.; January 8, 2010 at 9:26 AM
Capcom said...: Yep, I'd bet on that late of a reveal myself.

Haha, Wayne already "filmed" the Losties on the BR, and gave it to me as a sculpture for Xmas.

:o); January 8, 2010 at 9:55 AM
MikeNY said...: Good points.

I'll just add that should they flash some of the Losties to the BR, they would have to avoid showing them in the presence of Richard. Otherwise, Richard would have recognized them in the '70s or 2000s.; January 8, 2010 at 6:46 PM
MikeNY said...: Check out Dark's site for the meaning of the numbers... :-); January 9, 2010 at 7:55 AM
Greg Tramel said...: maybe the numbers are the rankings to be the potential Others leader

you get touched by jacob on earth (fate) and your name is put on a list

throughout their life (free will) they are ranked

fate + free will = destiny; January 9, 2010 at 4:04 PM
Greg Tramel said...: so is Desmond a flight attendant in S6?

Oceanic Airlines Season 6; January 10, 2010 at 3:13 PM
Greg Tramel said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; January 10, 2010 at 4:05 PM
Greg Tramel said...: nevermind, duh!!

the scene in the video is when John saw Desmond as pilot in his drug vision when Boone led him around the airport , right?

maybe Des will be the pilot in S6; January 10, 2010 at 4:15 PM
Ricky said...: There's some new spoilers on Dark's site, The gist of them are:

The Numbers go as follows:

Locke = 4
Hurley = 8
Sawyer = 15
Sayid = 16
Jack = 23
Kwon = 42 (Jin? or Sun?) My guess is Jin since he's a Kwon by blood and Sun is only in name.

Next Spoiler:
Episode 6-10 Is Jin and Sun centric. No more info is available at this time.

Episode 6-11 = Desmond centric and it's title is Happily Ever After

Next spoiler: Desmond is filming ALT scenes with Charlie!

Next Spoiler: One of these two are gonna be in room 23: Jin or Kate

So these are the most recent spoilers to date Some are very interesting. what do you guys think?; January 11, 2010 at 11:07 AM
David said...: So, I'm starting to see Ricky's post from the other article as being pretty much the end game here.

So, people come/are brought to the island, as newbies, and remain "enslaved by space and time," i.e., stuck with their original timelines and traditional (linear) perspectives on spacetime.

Those with heightened awareness/potential are singled out and perhaps put through challenges to prove their knowledge/perspective, and are then allowed to "Move behind the curtain."

Behind the curtain are "The Others," who are a rag tag group of remnants from multiple time fragments (ancient egypt, 1950's, 1800's, etc) who have "stuck" and passed behind the space/time veil and as such administer access to the island's wormhole/nexxus properties. They are aware of bigger picture, perhaps not wholly, but definitely "in the loop" (no pun intended) about the subjective (and dynamic) nature of reality.

Above them all are Jacob/MIB, who as Yin/Yang attempt to nudge characters and, thusly, timelines in directions to influence particular endgames and outcomes.

Still many holes to fill in for me but slowly filling in picture in my mind - hope this spurs some thoughts in others to flesh out some new ideas.; January 11, 2010 at 11:09 AM
Ricky said...: Oh and almost forgot to add this one too since I don't see it on here:

- Flock ventures into Otherton and persuades Sawyer to join him for a little "trip"
- He takes him to a place with lots of names with lines through them
- The names all have numbers attached
- Sawyer finds his own name on the list - He is Number 15
- Locke's name is crossed out - He was Number 4
- Kate's name is on there as Austen - (My source did not reveal her number)
- Jack and Hurley discover a special "mirror" at the Lighthouse (Based on other info I have I think this is 6.5)
- The Mirror gives Jack a "flash" of his past when it is "aligned" correctly.

All of these spoilers were taken from:

Dark UFO; January 11, 2010 at 11:11 AM
Ricky said...: And yet another one here:

Charlie and Desmond meet up at the "Airport Courthouse?"

Photo; January 11, 2010 at 11:23 AM
Capcom said...: Aha, so we might get to see one of the prime -- if not THE prime, mother of all -- lists then. I really hope to get sensations of pieces falling into place and order while watching S6. Wayne will be happy to see his theory on the Losties possibly representing numbers in the VE come to pass. I know he's staying away from the spoiler thread for a while, so if that comes true, I'm posting his theory for him here, heheh.

Interesting about the mirrors.; January 12, 2010 at 8:54 AM
Ricky said...: @ Capcom: Yeah I read a theory some time ago on Mirror universes, I think it was called the Mirror moon theory or something like that, but essentially it said some thing along the lines of What we are seeing is two universes going at it, one is the MIB's universe, the other of Course is Jacob's, and that all the characters will choose a side by the end and that the war is between both "Worlds", It sounds interesting, when you think about that theory and try to figure out the spoiler with Jack looking into a mirror.

Have you ever read that theory? I think I read it off one of the links on this Blog. Anyway it was a while back when I read it and I have since read and even written several myself so I could be butchering it with my commentary on it, but if you haven't read it you should check it out!; January 12, 2010 at 11:28 AM
Ricky said...: Correction Mirror Matter theory:

and here's the link: Mirror Matter Moon Theory; January 12, 2010 at 1:14 PM
Capcom said...: Yes, I scanned the Mirrormoon a long while ago, but really need to revisit it for the updates.; January 12, 2010 at 2:43 PM
Anonymous said...: MikeNY who has commented in this very blog section, wrote the Mirror Matter Moon Theory.; January 12, 2010 at 3:33 PM
David said...: So Ricky/Big/Everyone

Referencing your post regarding "Iterations," does it follow that Jacob/Others can enter into these timelines and return to the Nexxus of the island, which exists outside of time?

Or once one of these iterations occur, is it it's own entity, and the people who exist in one "thread" will never be able to exist in another?

My thoughts aren't precisely clear, but for example, we have the scene between Richard and Ben, when he tells young Ben "You're going to have to be very, VERY, patient" or somesuch. Later, off island, Ben stops the van and tells everyone how much he's done, how patient he's been (may not exactly be that, but seems implicit.) The others are extremely fervent in their actions and have a focus bordering on intense zealotry. I can see this as perhaps a desire to get everything right in order to avoid "repeating the loop" and starting over. After all, if you had participated in a "looped" event, thousands of times over, I can see how you'd want to get it right the next time, and be wholly focused on bringing about precise events which allow it to occur. It seems, however, that they remember these loops, or at least, the higher members do.

I don't understand, in such a scenario where there are multiple timelines shooting off/terminating/cycling back, if these characters Remember. Or is it faith/science, where perhaps they have been so convinced by someone that they absolutely must make something occur or else everything fails?

And while I'm at it, when these iterations "Fail," do they fail with a Valenzetti-esque universal implosion? Do all timelines fail with the exception of whichever one they're trying to modify through the island? Jacob says it's "progress," but who actually realizes this progress? The people who loop, who then pass on the teachings of the failed loop? Who escapes the loop with knowledge? And HOW do you get out of a failed/failing loop with such?

Many questions have I - hopefully there's something in there to bring forth some discussion.; January 12, 2010 at 3:47 PM
Ricky said...: You know David I've never really put much thought into how Jacob and MIB work but I guess I could give you a metaphor that shows you how I kinda see it. Picture this:

The island is a secret community pool, and Jacob and MIB are the lifeguards, they sit just outside of this pool watching all the kids (LOSTIES) playing in the pool, they can also see whats going on outside of the pool too because it's only just beyond the chain link fence.

So as the kids play in this pool they can say things like hey no fighting, or they can suggest stuff like hey lets see who can hold their breath the longest, or whatever, but they never go into the pool unless it's absolutely necessary.

So if you put that with the island then I'd say Jacob and MIB sit just outside of the realm of the island an observe, sometimes making little suggestions through: lists, and visions, and dreams, and manifestations, even with subtle insights like in Locke's case (The island told me to...). But they never actually get involved on a physical level unless it is a big moment, So as these Losties move on to the next iteration, Jacob and MIB stay in their position just outside the realm of the island, they hold the knowledge of the past iterations and they can grant this knowledge to whomever they deem worthy enough to receive it, also they can always impart this knowledge to any and all of the Losties by way of Dreams, Vision, Subtle insights, Sudden Deja Vu, type memories, Flashes as seen with Desmond, Spectral visitations (Christian, Yemi, Ben's Mom, Etc...).

So all in all I see it as the losties playing out a re-curring chunk of time, but all the while being steered around by Jacob and MIB, trying to either Make or Prevent progress.; January 13, 2010 at 9:58 AM
lostmio said...: I was going to post this in the Jacob/Dharma thread, but it's really a spoiler-generated thought.

If, as it appears, Lost is largely about the battle between determinism (personified by MiB) and free will (Jacob)-
Then it begs the question:
What would Lost have looked like if determinism had prevailed?
ie,If Jacob had not succeeded in bringing Desmond and flight 815 to the island?
Is that what the writers are doing with the Alt?; January 13, 2010 at 10:10 PM
Ricky said...: @ lostmio: You know I never thought of it that way, that said it sounds like a good reason for ALT to me, also a good reason why the White on Black Logo swapped too.; January 13, 2010 at 11:06 PM
neoloki said...: Just watching interviews from the press conference the other day. Ben and Locke (Emerson and O'Quinn) are interviewed together and Kristin asks Emerson if there is any redemption for Ben Linus. Emerson answers that Ben is "pre-redeemed". I don't think Ben is human.

Claire is looking badass and not as in pretty but as in tough. She is not playing Claire anymore. That is my guess at least.; January 14, 2010 at 9:03 AM
Ricky said...: @ Neo: Hey dude I always kinda looked at Ben's actions as one who is on a much larger mission than meets the eye. Yes he has "used" certain circumstances to his immediate advantage, but ever since the scene in the butcher Shoppe in Season 5 or was it 4 (whichever I've lent out my DVDs So I haven't had a fresh re-watch in weeks now), coupled with the allusion that he's been off island "secretly" himself, and not to mention that he's a preferred guest at the Tunisian Hotel, all of this speaks to a "Secret" mission that he is in charge of or that he is working point on you know.

What is that mission, is it for or against Jacob? If for then I'd have to assume that Jacob has given him a sort of "Diplomatic immunity" type thing to make sure he gets done whatever needs to be done in the whole scheme of things. I guess Same thing goes if he's working for MIB too.; January 14, 2010 at 11:16 AM
neoloki said...: just an observation and a thought.

I am still having trouble with the MIB=Smokie equation. Do you think that the MIB can just be summoned by letting dirty water drain out of a muddy hole in the ground? I understand it didn't work later on and it might be to his advantage to protect Ben, but it must of worked a few times in the past or Ben would not have tried it on Keamy. Also, where did Flocke go after the second time Ben summoned Smokie? And why would he have to disappear at all if he was Smokie.
It just seems certain things are not adding up and we are not getting a clear picture yet of their connection and I do believe they have a connection.; January 14, 2010 at 2:08 PM
Ricky said...: My thoughts on the MIB/Smokie subject are as follows:

1: Locke is most certainly the MIB (or at least that is what they want us to believe as of "The Incident")

2: Some of the appearances of Christian have been Smokie, while some have been MIB. For instance: White rabbit Christian was I think Smokie, as was Rocking chair Christian that Hurley saw, but later on I'll explain why I think that Cabin Christian that Locke saw was MIB as well as Donkey Wheel Chamber Christian. Dharmaville Christian was Smokie again.

Now I've thoroughly gone over the 07 on island scenes from 316 all the way through to Dead is Dead, and it's still very vague but I'm lets say about 80% certain that Locke/MIB was on Hydra Island warming up by the fire while at the same time Christian/Smokie was showing the Namaste photo to Sun and Frank.

So unless Smokie can be in two separate places at the same time let alone two separate Islands, and still be cognizant while doing so then I have to say they are indeed separate.

Now to give further (speculatory) evidence toward this assumption, I have to take you back the the episode "The Beginning of the End" that scene where Hurley stumbles onto the cabin late at night. Now we see Christian in the cabin sitting in the Chair, and he seems to be paying attention to something or someone, well of course we now know that there was someone else in their, but we don't know who exactly it was, I suggest that it was supposed to be MIB now after having thought it out, At the time I and probably everyone else thought it was Jacob, But I have my doubts on that.

Now what I believe was going on in that Cabin was MIB (who at the time was trapped) was conspiring with Smokie (who we know has free reign of the island, or at least the dark territory) to set their plan of the Loophole in motion and what happens? A big ole lumbering idiot comes knocking on the door, So MIB scares the living Bejeezus out of him causing Hurley to trip back and land right into the circle of ash, effectively breaking it. So now the MIB is free to roam around now too, the question is: Was that a spirit that only Hurley could see and not really a corporeal form of The MIB? I think so, and I think that since Hurley was able to break the ash for him, he was now free to take the form of Christian, So as to get Claire on his side, and to feed John a line of Bull$#!T. So I think MIB used Christian's form until Locke was available, So now he is using Locke's form and Smokie is free to re-use Christian's form.

Now to finally answer your question of what I believe was going on with Locke/MIB while Ben was summoning Smokie:

Remember Sun said he told her, "he had something to do."

Well I think what he had to do was Meet Smokie and Tell him that he needed to NOT kill Ben, and to go and pick up the image of Alex so that he can use it to scare the $#!T out of Ben so that he'd do whatever the hell Locke told him to do.

Hows that sound for a theory?; January 14, 2010 at 11:34 PM
neoloki said...: Ricky

Well written and well thought out. I especially like your idea on what Flocke was doing after he talked to Sun and disappeared.
I also agree that Smokie and MIB were in the cabin together. I am not to sure about Hurley breaking the ash circle, but they did seem to want to get his attention and want him to come inside. It could be they wanted the info about turning the Donkey wheel out sooner but other than that I don't have any thoughts on the subject right now.

A previous hangman spoiler said MiB and Smokie share a trait. They are both shape shifters.
The next hangman spoiler says Smokie now played by Terry O'Quinn. I have talked on the subject ad naseum. What was your interpretation?; January 14, 2010 at 11:53 PM
Ricky said...: Neo:

I have a few ideas about that. The first one is: That it is just a Foiler mixed up in a spoiler, to throw us off, but honestly that would be kinda stupid so I doubt it.

2: Something happens that causes MIB to take a different form that we know nothing about yet, which leaves Locke's form a perfect place for Smokie to live for a while.

3: Jacob is actually Smokie and he takes on Locke in the box's form after his "Death" (not really sold on this one but it would be a twist)

4: The whole Spoiler of Smokie just wants to go home may mean that both Jacob and MIB control/imprisoned him so now with Jacob out of the way (which was the harder of the two to kill), Smokie can focus on MIB. In other words it is still possible that Smokie really is a good guy, and is gathering up the Losties to Finish what his Darker Master started. (that is taking control of the island, but not for power, for freedom)\

Really to be honest most of what I just wrote was a stream of conscious thought so I am totally baffled by that spoiler too, but I still hold firm to the belief that MIB and Smokie are separate beings regardless of who is playing them.
Much like Christian, sometimes he was Smokie - other times he was MIB, but as I showed you before that doesn't mean that they are the same guy.

I just don't have enought context with these spoilers to come up with something too terribly sound as far as the Locke/MIB/Smokie situation goes.

Hope those random thoughts helped you though!; January 15, 2010 at 10:39 AM
Ricky said...: With the new Desmond spoilers out there I thought I'd present an addendum to my loop theory here.

Some of you may know that my newest idea is that The Original Losties (to be known as the LOSTIES from here out), will go behind the curtain in the ALT 77' and begin a campaign to get the ALT Losties (to be known as the ALTies from here on out) to come to the island sometime between ALT 2004 and ALT 2007. And that I think "Something" will happen in this ALT island timeline that compels "someone" to turn the Donkey wheel and go back in time again to before the Incident.

Now in this theory of mine, not only do the Losties end up behind the curtain orchestrating on and off island events to get the ALTies on the island, but I posit that in a shocking twist towards the end of the season we'll see the ALTies go back in time too just as the Losties did and effect the Original incident, thus preventing the "Prevention" of the 815 Crash, in effect preserving the original timeline that we have already witnessed. In doing this the ALTies will be the cause of 815 crashing on the island in the first place, just as the Losties are to be the cause of 815 not crashing, So the twist will reveal, that the ALTies have been behind the curtain all throughout the show we've been watching, and possibly even slipping in and out of scenes we've already seen.

Now to fit Desmond in this theory:

From some of the spoilers regarding Desmond's Centric Episode, we've learned that in the ALT timeline (off island) Eloise's Surname is Widmore, suggesting that they (her and Charles) stayed together, and another snippet reveals that Desmond shows up at some sort of benefit party (seemingly put on by Hurley and Libby), looking for Penny (because Des is miraculously special and remembers the other timeline, maybe through "Flashes") who seems to not be around. Now I think that it is possible that; because Charles and Eloise stayed together in the ALT that Charles never left the island to have an affair before getting Eloise pregnant, thus Penny doesn't exist in the ALT timeline. This of course makes Desmond go mad, because he can absolutely remember a time when he and this Penny had a child Named Charlie, and he wants desperately to get back to that timeline.

This of course would be the catalyst to him helping the Losties get the ALTies to the island so he can stowaway and go there himself to try and fix his past.

So it is possible that Desmond gets to the island in ALT 2004-2007 and convinces "Someone" to turn the Donkey Wheel, making the island skip back to a time before 1977's incident, and in this trip back Desmond makes damn sure, that JH doesn't go off basically negating the incident we saw and creating the one we haven't seen (the one that ended in the Swans construction rather than Destruction), This would also lead to a Figure 8 loop, with the incident(s) being the center point and the "beginning" of each part of the loop. Also known as a Mobius Strip/loop.

What say you?; January 15, 2010 at 1:06 PM
Greg Tramel said...: i thought we pretty much figured Cerberus was the source entity on island which has manifested on island as Smokey, MIB, Flocke, Christian, Kate’s horse, Ben’s mom, Alex, Yemi, Vincent, Claire, Walt

i agree the some of the above could be whackadoo

i didn’t include Jacob because we have seen him off island but otherwise I might include him

i've also said maybe it can manifest as only 3 beings at once like the 3 headed Cerberus just to sorta keep the writers honest rather the source entity being able to appear in an umlited number of beings at the same time; January 16, 2010 at 9:05 AM
neoloki said...: I agree Greg that the scenario is a good theory and has a certain elegance to it. Seems as likely as any., but I am still not completely convinced. there are a number of ways they can take it.

What is the general idea on Christian when he visited Jack at the hospital during Something Nice Back Home. I believe this might be are one and only off Island MIB sighting. What does he want with Jack, though?; January 16, 2010 at 9:11 AM
Bigmouth said...: MIB visits Jack because he doesn't want Aaron brought back to the Island. This is consistent with casual Zombie Christian's comment to Claire that Aaron was where he needed to be. I think MIB suspects that Jacob's end game somehow involves Aaron and Ji-Yeon, so getting them off the Island was a key part of his plan.; January 16, 2010 at 9:15 AM
neoloki said...: Thanks Big! That makes such perfect sense I am a little embarrassed I asked the question.

I am very curious to see how TPTB will resolve the importance of Aaron to the big picture. I do like your thoughts on the subject Big, at least what I have read in your theories.; January 16, 2010 at 9:21 AM
Greg Tramel said...: sorry forgot about "dead" Christian visiting Jack with the smoke alarm going off so i suppose this island entity can project a being off island or something like that; January 16, 2010 at 9:22 AM
MikeNY said...: Ah, the smoke alarm... I'm really on the fence about the MiB appearing off-island.

On the that-too-was-actually-a-ghost-and-not-the-MiB-side, at least Christian appeared in his death/White Rabbit garb and hardly spoke. His agenda was poorly delivered for the MiB's standards.

I suspect Hurley's purpose in service to the "game" will be to serve as Jacob's mouthpiece. That would be impossible, of course, if he can't legitimately communicate with the dead.; January 17, 2010 at 8:11 AM
Greg Tramel said...: yes MikeNY, I’ve been reluctant (or I conveniently forget the smoke alarm thing, lol) to speculate MIB manifested off Island

Duh!!!, I forgot to include Ben as a posibble Cerberus manifestation after the temple “cure”

while I’m at it I suppose I should include Locke since there are those that think Locke has been a Flocke from the minute he wiggled his toes

and then for a whackadoo I’ll add Jack since we know that in the original script Jack died day 1 and it’s possible (though I doubt it) that the 2 heads of Cerberus (Christian and Vincent) proceed to manifest Jack in the missing pieces video because he had work to do

all I’m saying is there is evidence so far that this is happening, in the end I doubt that’s the complete picture (actually I hope it’s not the big picture because I think it may be a little to simplistic but for once I agree with Neoloki that we may have to keep the audience in mind)

anyway for the record your honor we MAY have seen Cereberus manifested on Island as Smokey, MIB, Flocke1, Flocke2, Christian, Kate’s horse, Ben, Ben’s mom, Alex, Yemi, Vincent, Claire, Walt, Jack

anybody else I’m forgetting?; January 17, 2010 at 9:24 AM
Greg Tramel said...: and i suppose we may need to include Claire's phone call to Kate about Aaron as a possibility of Cerberus (or some kind of island entity) manifesting on Earth but i was really just focusing on Island for now; January 17, 2010 at 9:29 AM
Greg Tramel said...: and i agree Big, whatever it is it didn't want Aaron to get back on island YET; January 17, 2010 at 9:31 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i agree MikeNY i expect to see Hurley's (and Miles') special abilities of communicating with dead to come into play, guess we will have to wait and see if Hurley "speaks" for "dead" Jacob; January 17, 2010 at 9:39 AM
Greg Tramel said...: WOWZA!!!! Richard's wife, sorry just being a guy

ONTH i would have never guessed we'd see his wife

i'm STILL perplexed about Illana being Jacob's daughter, was that confirmed?; January 17, 2010 at 10:01 AM
Greg Tramel said...: last one for today i promise, MAYBE, but i meant to mention i like Ricky's idea of Ellie and Charles still together with no Penny in the "alt"; January 17, 2010 at 10:07 AM
Bigmouth said...: I'm gonna echo Greg's "hubba hubba" for Alpert's wife! Interesting, too, that she's Hispanic like Nestor. Does this mean Alpert was from Spain?; January 17, 2010 at 10:12 AM
Greg Tramel said...: good point Big, Richardus and Isabella could have shipped out from Spain

i'm going to let someone more adept in history run with it, i have enough trouble remembering what happened yesterday much less centuries ago; January 17, 2010 at 10:31 AM
MikeNY said...: Wait. How does the smoke alarm scene support keeping Aaron off-island?; January 17, 2010 at 12:36 PM
lostmio said...: I've been avidly following the MiB - Smokey discussion.

The one thing that nags at me - and Ricky briefly touched on it - is that Jacob and MiB imo seem to be beings of equal status. So why/how would Smokey and be only associated with MiB and not with Jacob?

Is there a consensus of sorts here that Jacob had no association with Smokey? I don't have a clue, just would like to hear the sickies weigh in.

neoloki, fyi, I'm of the same mind as you re the unconfirmed vague Dark spoiler that MiB=Smokey. It's the equal sign that doesn't work in that equation. A shared trait, maybe; a connection, likely; or maybe one is a subset of the other, a la Cerberus. But I don't think even the source meant that MiB and Smokey are one and the same.

Anyway, this is mostly a shameless bump, hoping you all will continue the Smokey speculation.; January 18, 2010 at 10:28 AM
Greg Tramel said...: i'm very open to considering Jacob to also be a manifestation of the Island source entity (i'm calling it Cerberus these days for lack of a better signifier) since i've thought all along Jacob and MIB are dualistic parts of the same beast (or godhead or whatever)

currently the sticky part for me is Jacob appearing off Island but that may be a non-issue since i suppose MIB may have manifested off Island as well or at least influenced off Island events

i agree just because Smokey and MIB have been played by Terry O does not equate to MIB=Smokey; January 18, 2010 at 10:49 AM
Greg Tramel said...: oh, and i've been meaning to ask when y'all mention 4D beings y'all mean 4-dimensional beings, right?

the reason i'm asking is because i've fallen down a rabbit hole about 4th density beings and i can't get out, guess i have to turn the FDW; January 18, 2010 at 10:54 AM

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Friday, December 18, 2009

More Season 6 Speculations (SPOILERS)...

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