I've long maintained that Penny and Desmond are Adam and Eve. In 2004, Jack estimates the bodies in the cave have been dead for about 50 years, which would place their deaths around 1954. Charlie Hume is three in 2008, and Charles Widmore seventeen in 1954. My guess, therefore, is that Penny, Desmond, and Charlie will return to the Island on a bearing that sends them back in time to 1940. Charlie will grow up on the Island, join the Others, and become their co-leader with Eloise.
This means, of course, that Charles Widmore is actually his own grandfather. I'm reminded of my favorite episode of Futurama, Roswell That Ends Well, where Fry mistakenly kills his grandfather in the past. He then sleeps with his grandmother, becoming his own grandpa. Ben putting metal in the Orchid Chamber may actually be a sly reference to this episode. The Planet Express crew is hurtled back in time when Fry places a metal "Iffy Pop" container into the ship's microwave during a supernova.
Futurama | Weeknights, 9p/8c | |||
Grandma Paradox | ||||
|
Another great example of such ontological paradox is Robert Heinlein's short story "-- All You Zombies --" wherein the protagonist is his own mother and father thanks to time travel and a sex change. Eventually, we learn he/she's a time cop, manipulating events to complete the causal loop of his/her self-creation. Darlton may be fans of this well known time travel story, too. The protagonist wears a ring with a snake eating its tail, like Ms. Hawking's Ouroboros brooch.
I suspect that Charlie and Ellie have been working similarly to preserve the ontological paradox that is Widmore. To paraphrase one of my older posts, In Gott We Trust, when seventeen-year old Charlie Hume lays his parents' bodies to rest in the cave five decades in the past, the Widmore family circle will be complete at last.
As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!
281 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 281 of 281 Newer› Newest»Two versions of cast Supper photo.
Claire and Miles switching sides?
http://lostmediamentions.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-clues-are-hidden-in-lost-supper.html
damn typos
and we can't forget the infamous mousetrap when Locke was working in the toy store
what brought Vozzek up was Jeff Jensen asked him some questions (like Big) in his recent EW article
'Lost': The 'M:I 3' Connection
so Vozzek and Eye M Sick are 2 of his top ten lost theorists bookmarks, i want to know the rest of them but i suppose we will get some more
wayne, i think like capcom i read them on DarkUFO as well
here is the last one he did
Things I Noticed - The Incident by Vozzek69
maybe off topic but since we've discussed the Georgia Guidstones here before
Significant Event per Georgia Guidestones for January 4, 2010
I worked on GETTING LOST because, as Jackie Gleason used to say, "A gig's a gig." But I did not look at any of the other books because the only books that matter would be any that are going to be written after the show ends.
Philosophy of LOST? C'mon. Besides, I get that from this blog. Same with about all the other books. But, as Ricky said, if you can find them on the cheap at Amazon, well, there are enough of them that I couldn't even suggest one, to be truthful.
Greg, thank you for the guidestone link. I'm halfway through my Cthulhu 2012 story and its taken the form of a narrative. The date in the article works perfectly.
Can someone make a link to Thunderstorm's LS? You know me, I screw up cutting & pasting just by thinking about it. Tried twice, might as well put the hammer to my head again.
here you go wayne
Lost Supper(s)
also 1 of my favorite theorists Fishbiscuit (i wonder if Jeff will interview him) did some analysis as well
A Lost Supper
BTW, for what it's worth
Miles, Claire, Hurley, Ben and Sun changed palces
Jeff’s top 10 theorists better include
Dr. Todd J. Hostager
and
Therese Odell
but as far as the other 6 i'd have to tale some wild guesses
here's 4 more for the top 10
MikeNY
Capcom
Jason Hunter
J Wood
J Wood...I hope he comes back.
Big, do you have any idea what happened to HearingVoices over on the Fuselage? Talk about an amazing prescient Lost fan.
J. Wood also wrote a book and it is the only Lost book I have ever considered buying. He has some kind of disease and stopped post recaps about a third of the season in last year which is too bad. I credit him for much of my online participation and even interest in Lost. All his old articles are still on Powells.com (if you like book stores Wayne this might be the best in the country) and are worth a reread.
Ricky, good to see you posting over here. Please keep it up. It is a much better atmosphere for a reasonable discussion.
Greg
Wow, Jason Hunter? You pulled that one out of your ass. LOL. I thought I had been to them all, but he was new to me. he hasn't updated his sight for a year.
My favorite are/were:
Luhks
J.Wood
Bigmouth
and even Jensen for entertainment purposes
Oh yes and I am with Greg on Hema Theory and Tubular..
Neo: Hey! Yeah man I actually read this site everyday but for some strange reason I never jumped in, you guys tend to sum things up nicely over here, and also I'm very amazed at the lack of Idiot attacks over here as opposed to Dark's site. I mean I love it over there, but the infighting is just about too much for me.
I feel like I spend more time babysitting 14 year olds over on Darks site and mentally assaulting them to put them in their place than I do theorizing and commenting.
It's Nice to come over here after a grueling day over at Dark's site and just relax and read some cerebral stuff instead of Jate Skating off the side of the Blackrock's main deck!
actually i think Jensen has some really interesting insights and look forward to his articles, i didn't include him because in my mind i was speculating about who Jensen might interview next
i was thinking (hoping) J Wood would be well enough to be interviewed
I am pretty sure Jensen featured Wood in a article in season 4.
I really hope he will be able to post something in season 6 on powells.com.
I believe J Wood has multiple sclerosis. He's been featured by Doc before, but I agree it would be great to see a full interview.
PS: Great to see you posting here regularly Ricky!
oh, i kinda remember, it may have been thru Doc Jensen that i 1st heard about J Wood
lately for no real apparent reason i've been leaning towards S6 not being a parallel reality
for example in the comic con videos when Hurley is the chicken king it is after he had spent time on the island even though the date on earth may be 2004
J. Wood does have M. S. I corresponded with him a few times, but realized that he was likely able to stay in contact with only a few people. I did read his column in spurts, and somehow didn't know he had a book out.
I hate my body, but I'm grateful I was born with cerebral palsy and never knew any other life that I'd have to adapt to. Last time we emailed, I wished him the best. All you can do, you know?
Wow Greg, thanks for the mention! I don't even theorize much anymore but who knows, S6 might freak me out so much that I'll have to do some brain info-dumps after each ep to make room for the next episode. I'm guessing that we might not get as much science as we have in the past, but they do have some s'plainin' to do.
It would be nice if Wood gets interviewed, his perspective was great. Especially in light of his current health situation and that he hasn't been able to contribute for a while.
I thought that Fishbiscuit was a female....such catty shipper rants and all! LOL.
Don't shoot me Wayne, but I actually enjoyed Heores last night...or maybe I'm just liking the Carny village too much. I think I'd like to live there.
LOL Ricky, I agree about the forum posters. It's a shame, because the more rational commenters do good research and have some great ideas.
P.S. That LS promo set reminds me a LOT of the original Land Of The Lost sets.
Sareesatakka! X-D
Fishbiscuit is female, right?
yeah, sorry, that's right i forgot we figured out Fishbiscuit is female
anyway, i've been wondering why when Ben turned the FDW he was only transported to Tunisia 10 months in the future and when Locke turned the FDW he was transported to Tunisia 3 years in the future
maybe it's just random, guess i'm grasping at straws trying to come up with an alternative to S6 starting out in a parallel universe
woops! sorry if that is considered a spoiler, i guess i assume it's not a spoiler since what else can we conclude from the Comic Con videos
That's a nagging question about the FDW time jumps, for sure. I could go with it being a random thing. As in, where ever the island is in time; or where ever some connecting roaming wormhole is; or how thick the cosmic rays from the sun flares are shooting past the earth's magnetic field on that particular day; affects where in time the FDW sends you to. Or, even how far you move it when you turn it.
Re: the wheel, remember, Ben and Locke were on opposite sides, moving it in opposite directions. But, more telling, Locke only reset the wheel, he never pushed it from one wall to the other. Plus, he disappeared in a time flash that corresponded with the one Juliet, Sawyer, etc., felt as if it was a rubber band or something.
The thing I go by is that Ben didn't go that far into the future because he messed up turning the wheel. Plus, I think that if Locke was not TOUCHING the wheel, the time flash the others felt might have included him, as well. Hard to say. Christian's presence might have nudged him along, I dunno. But if you look, all Locke does is pull the wheel back after lifting the top part.
Capcom, I haven't looked at HEROES in a year, but I was saying what came out of people's mouths before they did, particularly the Petrellis and Claire. Its competing with TWO AND A HALF MEN and Sean Hannity (at least last night), so I imagine a lot of people watch it during dinner, etc. I kept it on for ten minutes, tops.
Did RA use the wheel before they swiped the Galaga? Did he use it to be there for Locke's birth, and then the other visits (in whatever way) were caused by his jumping fwd in time? Long shot, right?
But why did Juliet tell Locke that "Richard's always been here" when she could have said that RA recruited her himself for the Island? Time constraints, I'm sure. Plus it was a funny line. (I just recalled that Locke heard Juliet say 'Ricardus Alpert' to Widmore in that same episode. So that's close in the way of them realizing she knew more about RA then they thought.
Whoops. What Capcom said, how much/far you turn it.
Crap. Me again. Here's a thought. What if its not about how far you go in the future but how you can time yourself to smaller jumps? All we really have to go on are Ben and Locke's respective movements. Could be wormholes, as Capcom said, but there might be a way for RA's crew to have a general idea of when they will end up, you know, weeks or days.
And yeah, what Wayne said, Locke's bumping it and the opposite directions of turning too. But that would be more interesting if that made them go in opposite directions in time as well.
Heroes was on for two hours last night, but yes, it starts at a new later time soon. I guess next week. I'll be glad to see Chuck on again, but it might not be so funny if he's all spy-savvy now. The fun was his his rube-ness.
Wayne
The wheel was moved in the same direction. Ben pushed and Locke pulled.
Considering the Island is it's own "world" separate from Earth and possibly universes it would seem that whether you left the Island through a baring at sea or where transported, the time/space dislocation of the Island would create a random effect as to the amount of time that would pass as/after you left.
yes, i considered the time travel timeframe being different because they were on different sides of the FDW but it still seemed a little random, why 3 years vs 10 months?
but nevermind, i'll get over the annoyance of S6 involving a parallel universe or tangent universe that began at least as far back as Black Rock being in the island realm
just have to wait and see
when I say time/space dislocation of the Island, I am also referring to the fact that the Island is always moving. Faraday, at the beginning of season 5, was trying to locate the Island in time so he could create a new baring with which to leave the Island. So, with each jump the baring of 305 would create vastly different results in time if you repeatedly used it. I believe using the Wheel as an method of exist would be similar because the "baring" would be the same but time/space would be vastly different.
Also, you can not discount the fact that the Island is placing people where they need to be. This was discussed by Damon during the commentary for Because You Left as to why the characters were ending up in certain time periods.
ok, i agree Neoloki, the time travel time is just random as it appears rather than a fixed 3 years or 10 months depending on specific variables
Yeah, Greg, except I don't think it is just one reason. The answer here is a mix of science and spirituality. In other words, time/space dislocation while using the same "direction" as an exit AND the Island placing people in the situation and time it needs them to be in.
neoloki, I was contradicting myself there, you are correct. I wonder why Locke pulled when, if I recall, Christian told him it needed a little push (or shove). Ah, well.
I totally agree on the time flashes, because everybody did everything already, even if it was their present when they did it. 1954 happened, we just don't know about 1977 yet.
It makes sense re: the wheel, because Ben showed up at the hotel just as Nadia's funeral was shown on the TV. And if the same goes for Locke, well...in a way, war or game, its already over and done yet. We just haven't seen the ending in what amounts to our present. Or something like that.
Re: direction...aha!
Blogger Wayne Allen Sallee said...
One. last. thing. In one episode of THE LONE GUNMEN, there was a plot involving flying a commercial jet into the World Trade Center. That is one thing that just stays in my head, that Chicago has the tallest building in the US since 9/11. I suppose you have to live here to just feel the ghosts.
For the record, Chicago already had the tallest building. WTC was second.
3D, I should have said that the Willis (Sears) Tower is now the ONLY tall building,and before 9/11 still not the tallest when it came to floors, in general terms, WTC 1 had a restaurant on the 109th floor. The businesses in the Willis stop at 104, the rest is radio towers and the like. That's why there are so many architectural battles going on in the city, the newest being Trump Tower with ITS radio towers, and the Spire, which will eventually be built.
In terms of office space, Manhattan had the balls to go a bit higher. The Sears opened--still can't believe it is Willis Tower now--in 1974, so the designers might have seen where our building "ended." Five stories is a lot, that high up.
Sorry to be a little behind the curve here, but I suspect the sense that Aaron sometimes "exists" and sometimes doesn't is because we are seeing different realities in the same episode (perhaps sometimes within the same scene) or across multiple episodes. Perhaps the O6 are experiencing phantom/overflow memories from a different reality? e.g. I noticed (probably you've already seen, as I'm late to the party ...) that in 316 the dialogue and action was different in the opening Jack/Kate/Hurley sequence to the closing Jack/Kate/Hurley sequence, the latter implying that they had some inherent knowledge of a reality that was playing out differently.
Nicky, that sounds like it goes along with my theory that we've already seen some S6 events
Hi Greg, yes, completely agree
and i mean in addition to the outrigger shootout
for me, that explains the changing circles and squares as Wayne calls them such as the changing picture frame in the house Miles' ghostbusted
i think in FLashForward we see a classic many worlds scenario and there are "copies" of each person in each world, so there's a parallel world in which Olivia is married to Lloyd with Dylan and Charlie as their
kids
i think with Fringe we are seeing two different parallel worlds with similar properties but there is not a copy of each person in each world (so Peter is a clone instead of being pulled from the other world)
i think in lost we are dealing with a Universe 'like a bottle of champagne' (thanks to Netprophet for the link)
however i think it is possible for some to travel between the bubbles or at least get glimpses of the other bubbles
BTW, i made a little cheat sheet for when my shows start back
Jan 8 - Dollhouse
Jan 14 - Fringe
Jan 22 - Caprica
Feb 2 - Lost
Mar 4 - FlashForward
March 30 - V
I just finished watching 316 again last night. Whereas I could say that the different dialogue was intentional at the Long Beach dock, I'm one for also saying that the changing dialogue (and possibly the camera angles) are subtle clues to the changing reality we'll see in S6.
Also, and I never recalled this and of course had no reason to when 316 aired, Hurley asks Ben who told him to [get on the plane], and Ben looks at him and says, Who told you to get on the plane? Back then, I assumed Ben was talking about Jack.
Also, Ben saw Locke's suicide note, and no one knew Locke's writing past his ? map. I keep wondering if Ben wrote multiple suicide notes, so if Jack threw away the one Eloise had (Ben either expected him to or Eloise told Ben so), Ben then crumpled up another one for the Ajira attendant to give Jack before they took off.
316 is seen in a completely different light because Jeremy Benthem follows next. The progression of the episodes are always superb, now that we don't have any lame flashbacks.
Greg
The champagne analogy of the universe: is this a reference to the article on Darks site?
The link is great. thank you Net and Greg.
Net linked to it on the spoiler post so all thanks got to him, i haven't read any recent dark posts
I think that the Difference between the parallel worlds we see on fringe and the ALT that is yet to be seen on LOST are best described as this:
What we will perceive as an ALT timeline will really just be a different iteration of a large continuous loop, but I think that in all previous iterations 815 has crashed, and they all pretty much go exactly as we saw in seasons 1-5 but now something Changed and so since free will trumps course correction an ALT version of events will have to take place.
So I think it goes like this:
season 1-5 = iteration 108 (for lack of a better number)
Des fails to push the button, 815 crashes, Losties find the hatch Locke forces Des to turn the failsafe, Making the island visible for a few seconds, Giving Des his Special abilities, Making Penny start searching for the island, Letting Widmore know that the island is now findable again, thus him sending the freighter, Because of Des's "Gifts" he is able to keep Charlie alive long enough to facilitate un-jamming the equipment leading to the Freighter sending in team Faraday, and team Keamy, leading Ben to move the island, leading to the time-flashes,that ultimately lead to the losties in the 70's. Then Course correction kicks in and places Jack, Kate, Hurley, and Sayid in 77' to fulfill their roles.
Of course sayid Shoots Ben leading to him being an other and their future leader, and Faraday desides to blow up JH during the incident to change the timeline, but I believe he fails in this iteration or it happens as we saw but Juliet just dies and never smacks the bomb...
...So that then leads to The concrete getting poured and the button getting set up, and the Swan is finished being built and so on... a loop!
Now here's where it gets hairy:
iteration 109, begins at the instant Juliet does start smacking JH, and so it detonates, destroying the energy pocket and the swan, so no need for a button and no need for Desmond, so 815 just happily flies over the island, and lands safely in Lax...
...But what about our Losties in the seventies, Well assuming that some of them survive the blast they soon realize that their plan didn't work as they thought it would so they go to Richard for some answers, and he leads them to Jacob (in the seventies) who leads them to the temple to heal up and meet Dogan, and Lennon, who will explain to them that they just broke the loop and that their Child/younger versions (who are alive and well off the island doing what kids and teens and babies do) will not crash in 2004 like they did, but that it is a mistake because they are all supposed to be on this island in 2007 for a war and if they aren't them the wrong side will win, so Iteration 108 Jack and Co. will become others and go behind the curtain to help facilitate getting their Child versions to the island by 07 for the war.
And what of the other version of Iteration 108 Jack and Co. the ones that didn't detonate JH, well that becomes an unending mini loop for the sole purpose of preventing a paradox, because if they only destroyed the button and the swan, then of course there never would be a them to even do it because they would have never crashed. So that has to happen so it is preserved in a WHH loop, the rest of the show will continue on this new ALT line, but it will tell the story of the WHH loop too. Does this make any since to any of you because I can see it so perfectly but I may not be articulating it correctly?
Ricky, I've been saying since S4 that we are simply seeing the current loop in LOST the series as a whole. My thinking this started from my Numbers being the People (my little leap of faith), which then became Faraday's variables. And before that the recurrence of chess and backgammon pieces. I described it to my friends like onion peels.
I like the way you put it, that there will be a new loop in S6. There's a lot to take from that, ALT reality and otherwise. And I like that you even start with 108, though I know you said it jokingly. I've given it thought, like, is this (LOST) the 40,000th loop of events on the Island? Since "The Incident," I've really started thinking that the whole looping thing started with the arrival of the Black Rock, and I don't know if this figures in to equation of Desmond, the Swan, Jughead, etc. But maybe we are watching only the 108/9th version of the loop. So, again, the way you wrote it out is cool. I've always been more abstract when I try and describe it, and this was long before MIB's loophole thing.
Thanks for the cheat sheet Greg!
If we have been seeing different realities play out all along, and TPTB actually manage to tell a story like that and it all comes together and makes sense to us, that will be a very neat trick. I'll really enjoy watching that. If they can pull it off, I have no problem with that happening. I may call mini-shenanigans for tricking us like that for so long, but I'll concede to their genius. :o)
Capcom, we were all tricked, the clue being that Sawyer episode "The Long Con."
Ricky, I reread your post after thinking on it awhile, and yes, you did articulate it well (even though I do not know who Dogon and Lennon are in relation to the show). What I would add is that, with my many loops theory, the war is the game, so there is a beginning and an end. Chess pieces. And there are likely only one or two things that would be unique in your Iteration 108, in my mind. Iteration 108 had the time flashes, 107 had the Swan's timer go off and 815 didn't crash, in 105 Widmore was never banished, little things, not the big mash-up of now. If there are two masters at chess, the game will continue with maybe one or two new or tricky moves. There might have been an iteration where no one told RA about Jughead and the DI never showed up due to the radioactivity on the Island.
For me, the war=the game. Jacob's idea of progress=starting a new game. If we end up with ALT versions of Jack, etc. existing in 1977, which I really think will confuse too many people, I would liken it to Jacob and MIB starting to play two games simultaneously.
At Wayne:
Sorry to throw those two names out there, I thought most of you guys were up on New Characters but for the sake of not spoiling it too bad for you I'll leave it at that!
In response to the many loops; I'll just say that yeah perhaps there are many different variations of how each iteration went down, but so far, in my opinion we've only witnessed one iteration (in its entirety) and maybe just maybe tiny snippets of a few other ones too; for instance in the Desmond Centrics, I think it is possible that we saw some earlier iterations and that Des can "remember" these too, and of course all the various ways Charlie almost died, were perhaps past iteration memories from Desmond.
But the real kicker here is after just recently re-watching season 1 for the umpteenth time, I cannot shake the feeling that Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Sawyer, and Locke are in fact "remembering" (albeit in minuscule, Deja Vous-like format), past iterations almost more like it is, now after So many iterations, ingrained into their Sub-Consciousness.
You know what I mean?
Ricky, your ideas make perfect sense to me
if you want to include spoilers in your comments do it at this link instead
"More Season 6Speculations (SPOILERS)
Wayne, i think i would change Jacob’s idea of progress=the one and only final end to all games
Exactly Wayne! :-D
Today I saw a new Hurley promo posted...not really very interesting, just another Cluck's commerical about food and surfing. Jorge's as endearing as ever tho.
yep, were still being conned
i WANT some golden chicken
Ricky, just a friendly heads-up that we don't mention spoiler info of any kind on posts not marked "SPOILER" in the title. Thanks.
Ricky, all cool on the names. I think I heard of Lennon somewhere and just forgot. Dogon might mean something because I know of a Lovecraft-type book with that name a friend wrote in the early 90s.
Greg, maybe you are right, that Progress to Jacob eventually equals checkmate.
Ricky, the freaky deja vu (or, to quote Yogi Berra, its deja vu all over again) vibe is there, and I've even suspected that I could add to my 'layers of the onion' to include the early flashbacks. That is, before 815 could even crash, the characters had to intersect in some way. If Jacob nudged them along, Kate meeting Cassidy the first time brought her back to the Island after meeting Cassidy the second time, and the like.
Ricky, if you haven't read through all the posts, one of my devil's advocate theories is that, if there is an ALT reality, then all the flashbacks from S1-S3 are from the ALT reality, the rest of the show, the real reality. I suppose that might give some characters that deja vu feeling.
If they try and pull off the ALT reality, I've said that the fastest way would be to do something similar to the time flashes with the shaky camera. Jack sees Locke, then Sawyer, then Desmond in the casket (I believe these were the three scenes shot to avoid the secret getting out), the marshall is handcuffed to Kate, then Sawyer, then Kate again. I dunno. I can see that sort of thing getting the point across that there might be more than one ALT or even just the one and the original.
Sorry Big: I got on a roll there and forgot where I was!
By the way, has anybody been trying to find clues in that LS photo? Or is that all going on at other blogs? Since we finally got hit with the sow like everyone else, I'm going to scroll over it today. If I'm not back in three hours, sell my stuff on eBay.
Wayne: The spoiler rule is bright line to make things easier for me to administer. So, no spoilers period, except on posts specifically identified such. Any further comments on this topic will be deleted. Thanks.
I have removed some spoiler comments. Please stop referencing the names Dogan and Lennon on this post. Thanks.
I was trying to differentiate the two types of info that gets tossed out, so I get it. I was trying to seem more spoiler-friendly, whereas for all I know I am blissfully unaware of what info I now have in my head.
That said, if people are going to discuss clues in the LS ad, will the comments end up on the spoiler post? Dumb question, I suppose, but I gotta ask.
Wayne: Good question -- I'll create a separate post for the Lost Supper discussion.
well, LS would be considered speculation, so I would assume no, but hey there have been numerous spoilers that I consider speculative.
i'm ignoring the Lost Supper, it's was analyzed by Doc Jensen last EW article and oter places
same here greg, the whole thing seems like non-sense to me.
tdciago is another in the list of Lostheorists i enjoy
tdciago
I still want to talk about Daniel's missing leg on the S5 promo poster!
X-D
Big, I guess the LS has been covered, or at least seen and discussed elsewhere. I didn't know if there was anything worthwhile knocking heads over. I might be biased, but I think this is the place I'd want to discuss anything at all.
wayne
I couldn't resist but there is a new spoiler that I think you would very much be interested in.
"mirror mirror on the wall..."
I strongly believe that Penny's and Desmond's son is actually Charles Widmore.
But him being his own grandfather is really wack, sorry.
A solution?
Penny is not Widmore's real doughter.
pa-baaaam!
cool site man
Magic: Thanks and welcome! I actually hope they don't cop out and make Penny adopted. I think this only works if they go all the way. Also, don't forget Ben's accusation that Widmore had a child with an outsider.
but we really don't know yet if Penny is Widmore's biological daughter and we do have the Ben/Alex precedent
Very true...it's certainly possible Penny was adopted. Maybe Charles had a moment of weakness like Ben did with Alex.
Eloise's slap on Widmore's face is a lot more poignant to me if Penny is really his daughter with another woman. Not only would she be slapping him for kvetching about the sacrifice of his relationship with his daughter in light of her much greater sacrifice of Daniel, but also slapping him for having Penny with someone else. Heheh.
;-)
ah good point! capcom, that cheating bast*rd!
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