Wednesday, February 18, 2009

Thoughts on 316...

There's a running joke among my friends that I have the world's worst DVR. The machine tends to pull a Widmore and chop off the very end of recordings, so I've taken to adding ten minutes to important programs like Lost. Unfortunately, in the heat of watching, I sometimes lose track of time and don't realize the show is ending. The other night, when that last LOST thudded onscreen, I howled at the television, crying out for more.

I was especially hungry because the episode raised so many questions. Why was Ben all bloody? How did Sayid end up in custody? (I'm guessing those mysteries are related...) And most importantly, how did Kate and Sun decide to leave Aaron and Ji-Yeon behind? Having the Oceanic 6 make it back to the Island before filling in these blanks felt rushed. I can't wait for more flashbacks that depict those missing forty-something hours.

Still, there was plenty in the episode for viewers of science and faith alike to dissect, starting with the new Dharma symbol for the Lamp Post station. Last December, when we first saw this graphic flash onscreen at the end of an installment of the Lost Book Club, my thoughts turned immediately to Narnia and C.S. Lewis:
The graphic evokes the lamp post in the woods marking the entrance to Narnia in the classic series by C.S. Lewis. Nor would this be the first such reference on Lost. As we've discussed before, the name Charlotte Staples Lewis seems a clear shout out to the author (i.e., Clive Staples Lewis).

This symbolism is fitting since, as we expected, the Lamp Post Station marked the way back to the Island. Here's how I'm guessing it worked. When Ms. Hawking mentioned that the Island is always moving, I think she meant that it orbits relative to the Earth. The big clues are the six Lost Numbers and the pendulum in the Lamp Post. As I've explained before, it takes six numbers to describe the orbit of any object, including a pendulum, in three dimensions:
Most interpretations of [the Lost Numbers] focus on the symbolism of specific numerals or the mathematical relationships between them. Few, however, consider the significance of six, which is the total number of Numbers. It turns out that six is the minimum number of values required to specify the state of an object at any given moment in three-dimensional space -- three components of position plus three more of momentum or velocity. Sometimes, for statistical purposes, it's useful to imagine the object moving through a six-dimensional "phase space" wherein each point along its trajectory can be expressed as a list of six numbers describing a different state of the object in question. Here's a phase portrait of a simple pendulum:

The Island may be moving in higher dimensions, cycling through different energy states (as the blackboard equations suggest) or some combination thereof. Whatever the precise nature of this orbit, it periodically brings the Island into phase with the Earth like two strings vibrating in tune. During these "event windows," the Island is accessible. The pendulum models the Island's orbit, creating a phase portrait that enables probabilistic predictions about where and when the next event window will open.

I'll bet the Frozen Donkey Wheel keeps this orbit stable, synchronizing Island time with our own. When Ben turned the Wheel off its axis, he made the orbit unstable. That may be why he landed five months in the future -- the Island was now out of sync with the Earth. I suspect Ben knew this would happen, which is why he asked the hotel clerk for the date. It's all part of his plan to go back. The Island's orbit probably remained unpredictable until Locke put the Wheel back on its axis.

So why did the Oceanic 6 need to recreate the original conditions of their crash? This was partly another Narnia shout out. As Doc Jensen noted in his teaser for this week's episode, the final book in the Narnia series (WARNING: LAST BATTLE SPOILERS) has the children being pulled back into Narnia right before a fatal train wreck. I'm guessing that, by placing themselves in imminent peril, the O6 spurred the Island to save them, much as it did Jack on that bridge in Through the Looking Glass.

Even more fundamentally, as the reference to doubting Thomas suggests, restaging the crash was also about taking a leap of faith. And here again, Lost touches upon to some of the existential themes that are at its core. I'll elaborate upon this in a subequent post, but leaps of faith exemplify what existentialists call acts of "radical" freedom. You free yourself from determinstic history by embracing a totally new new system of beliefs and assumptions, contrary to prior reason and experience. That's what Jack did by becoming a man of faith for purposes of returning the Island.

Hmmm...the part about freeing yourself from deterministic history also sounds a bit like the Desmond Exception to the rules of time travel, doesn't it? Like I said, that's another post. Due to family obligations, I won't be able to post three-dot thoughts this week. But please keep those excellent comments coming -- you all everybody routinely melt my mind! As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


Anonymous said...

On 316
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 316

Goes with Locke's Letter to Jack. Think theres a link?


lockerocks said...

Great thought Gigi. I totally think there is a link, given all the other biblical links already given in the show.
Wow! What a great episode. I never thought I would say that about an episode with NO lefties in it. But . . . what happened to Aaron? I guess Kate listened to Claire about not bringing him back, although I don't think she should have!

Fargus... said...

Just a quick thought. Claire says not to take "him" back. Charlie, in Hurley's vision, says they're not supposed to "raise him." Is it possible that they're talking about Locke, especially with the Reincarnation van tooling around?

I liked the episode quite a bit, but it, in some way, to me. It was good, but the tone of it was very different from most other episodes.

lockerocks said...

On second thought, maybe Claire was talking about Ben when she said "him". Ben is the one that screwed it all up in the first place. I still think Charlie's "him" was Aaron.

Have you gone to and watched Lost: Untangled? John 3:16 is definitely the reference, hence the church and Ben's telling the story of Thomas the apostle.

Anonymous said...

I had not been to ABC yet-came here right after episode : ). I will check it out! Thanks Gigi

machramm said...

Great episode.

Thanks to Ms. Hawking for explaining some things to us.

Loved Ben's line about learning to read from his mother.

Who the heck was the woman with Sayid?

Landa said...

Even though I hadn't been too happy with the storytelling of our Losties off island, last nights episode was pretty good. Initial thoughts:

• How they got to the island was anticlimatic. I think you could have figured it all out when our island time hoppers flashed and arrived at the Aja (spelling) plane wreckage, you could have surmised that these were probably our losters returning back to the island.

• Frank Lapidus as the pilot? Course correction?

• The scene between Jack and Ben, where Jack asked Ben if he believed. Ben’s response was ‘we all believe sooner or later, JOHN.’ Can someone confirm this? I replayed that scene about six times and I could have swore that Ben says ‘John’ instead of ‘Jack.’

• When Mrs. Hawking was talking about the windows, what she failed to say is that they could land ‘any time’ on the island. Will we ever receive an explanation of how it works?

• The guy who spoke to Jack at the airline checkin counter – I dunno. I think he’s a plant.

• What on earth happened to Kate that she would willingly leave Aaron behind? Whatever it was, she was scared. Is Sun’s devotion to Jin that deep that she would leave her child behind? Whereas I know Kate probably realizes that she’ll never return, is Sun thinking that eventually she and Jin will go back?

• I’m sure we’ll see the backstories on Hurley, Kate, and Sayid and how they eventually wound up on the plane. I’m wondering about Sayid, since he was in handcuffs and being transported, it probably had something to do with a ‘trumped’ up charge. It couldn’t have been too serious, there was only one transporter. Either way, I’m sure it was Ben’s doing.

• Speaking of Ben, what happened to leave him all battered and bruised. Why I am I feeling that it had something to do with Desmond/Penny? Even though I think Ben’s on the side of good, it was funny to see his cold calculating ways return when asked about the other ppl on the plane surviving the crash.

• The ‘Desond delivering the message’ plot felt ‘funny.’ I kept thinking it had to be more to it. And the lack of reaction by Mrs. Hawking regarding the message from her son was interesting.

• Jin at the end! Does this mean that they went back in time and are they in danger of being eventually purged out by Ben in later years?

• Was that a guitar case that Hurley had when they crashed? Like Christian's shoes on Locke, this was a symbol to Charlie? Part of the whole 'close recreation of the flight?' If so, why?

So looking forward to reading everyone's thoughts!

Anonymous said...

Is anyone else wondering if Claire's mom was still in LA? I found myself wondering if Kate left Aaron with her.

Fargus... said...

As I've had more time to think about it, this whole episode is best encapsulated by its opening minutes. Jack, Hurley and Kate find themselves back on the Island, and the audience is like, "Wait, what?" So then we watch the whole episode and see how they got back to the Island, but there's so much missing that the audience is like, "Wait, what?"

1) Obviously, how did Hurley and Sayid end up on the plane? Why was Hurley so cagey about saying anything to Jack about it?

2) Who worked Ben over? Could it have been Sayid? Could that have been his ruse to get Sayid on the plane? If so, how in the world did he get the authorities to transport Sayid to Guam, of all places?

3) What in the heck happened to Aaron?!

4) If Locke's standing in for Christian Shephard, perhaps other people on the flight are standing in for others as well. Obvious ones include Hurley for Charlie, with the guitar case, and Sayid for Kate, being in custody. But why those people couldn't stand in for themselves is as yet beyond me.

5) So are all the Lefties working for the Dharma Initiative back in the '70s? Are we gonna see Sawyer leading a crew of foremen somewhere? Maybe drinking with Roger (Workman) Linus?

80sPro said...

Digesting. But something stood out like a sore thumb and I kept repeating it to myself over and over again.

Jack asks Ben how he could read on the plane. Ben replies "because my mother taught me."

Ummmm.....Okay, well, since NOTHING is meaningless on Lost....and since we ALL know that Mama Linus is dead in a jungle....well, leaves one wondering.

I am more certain than ever that Eloise is Ellie and that Widmore is Danny's Papa.

Ben was at a wharf when he called Jack - I am almost sure of it. I bet that somehow or other Des AND Sayid had something to do with his beating.

I am wondering about the kids. I don't know why that concerns me so much (well, maybe the fact that I am a mom with young kids). But I find myself wondering about Ji Yeon, Aaron AND Charlie Jr....a

It sure is moving fast now, isn't it?

More later. Must digest.

mary said...

I love Ben with his funny comments. I even had to laugh when he was beat up again. Memories from last season when he was getting smacked around several times an epi.

I think Kate left Aaron with his grandmother. (claire's mom) Of course they can't talk about it. That's a new concept.

I'm wondering how the "other" Iranian fits into the season.

Scott said...

I can't say I was a big fan of the whole "we must re-create the event as close as possible" thing... it seems contrived and kind of lame. They may have a few things in common, but on the whole, that flight was nothing like 815... I hope there's more to it than we've seen.

Also, if that's how you use the Dharma lamp post station to get to the island, why were they able to get back and forth with a submarine, versus crashing a plane every time. Seems a little strange.

Third, why was Jin "inside the radius" when the island moved? The helicopter was between the blown up freighter and the island, yet it wasn't inside the radius. Because it's in the air, and not "touching" the island? If so, then why does a plane get sucked in (Ajira, Oceanic, Henry Gale, etc.)?

I think there's something more to Ajira airlines, than just a random crossing with the island's path... it has something to do with the landing strip we saw them build on the prison island in the first half of season 3. Speaking of which, why do we never see that place anymore, or from the air? And what happened to the magistrate lady who seemed to be "in charge" and sentenced Juliet with the tatoo? Seems that's the safest place for the others to go when the freighters came to the island.

neaux said...

I wonder if dead Locke convinced Hurley to get on the plane.. you know.. since he's dead. Of all the ghosts that talk to Hurley, I think Locke would be the one to get him to go back.

I'm also wondering about New guy on the plane.. I'm thinking he might just make it on the island.

BJ said...

Ben has sworn revenge on Widmore for the death of Alex. Des turns up and suddenly Ben has someone to go see... someone at a boat dock. I have a bad feeling about this.

Anonymous said...

Annie from Lockedinthetrunk :)

Man oh man! when all other shows on tv disappoint, Lost totally pulls threw! awesome, just awesome.

Like many others, i also have a strong feeling that Ben being beat up has something to do with Desmond. whether or not he "kept his promise to an old friend" and actually killed Penny... well i can only hope that Desmond got to him first. But somehow i doubt it.

When watching the episode again the only plausible reason for Kate acting like that would have to be that she gave Aaron to Claire's mom. Either that or she killed him lol and i dont really think that happened. But if i think about it, the only thing that would make Kate say that is if she had handed him over or if he was dead.

Am i crazy to think all the kids are on the plane? I was thinking about it and realized that in the first crash there were 3 kids that survived : Walt and the 2 tail section kids, the boy and girl. Is it coincidence that they have a boy (Charlie) and a girl (Ji Yeon) and with Walt, that make 3 kids.... ok I'm probably stretching with that one, but i still thought about it.

I'm thinking Charlie's the one who told Hurley to get on the plane. Was i the only one sorta creeped out Hurley saw Ben get on the plane and Jack told him this is the way it had to be, Hurley sat down and said something like "yes Jack, im fine" that creeped me out. Something is definetly up with Hurley.

Im not religious, but when i read the post from gigi, i had to look that up and it gave me goose bumps. that entire scene about Thomas made me cry.

I also thought that line about learning to read from his mom was great, and honestly didn't think much of it at the time, but indeed that does seem to lead to the possibility of a future flashback to see more of Ben's mom in the jungle and what led to him being the leader of the others.

that's about it for now, gotta watch it again, see if i missed anything :)

Lizzie said...

Landa: I thought he said Ben said "John" and not "Jack", too!

Anonymous said...

I'm also leaning towards the idea that the look on Ben's face outside The Lamp Post had nothing to do with the Hawking/Faraday connection, but was Ben realizing that he could kill Penny and still have time to pack.


lisa (lost pezhead) said...

i loved seeing Frank Lapidus!

good idea J, leaving aaron w/ claire's mom makes sense.

sayid seemed surprised to see everyone on the plane, but hurley didn't.

the opening of the show was great with Jack's eye! wasn't that the first shot of the pilot?

i also wondered that "Also, if that's how you use the Dharma lamp post station to get to the island, why were they able to get back and forth with a submarine, versus crashing a plane every time. Seems a little strange."

good point as well, "And what happened to the magistrate lady who seemed to be "in charge" and sentenced Juliet with the tatoo?"

we still have so many unanswered occurances on the show? Juliet's tatoo and Jacks too! what about the black/white stone found on adam/eve in the first season, walt & other kids w/ abilities? i wish we had more of walt...he was so interesting w/ his making birds fly into the window etc...seems like some stuff has significance, but then we don't really get any explanation!

yes, Jin in the dharma clothes was awesome!

it was a little spooky seeing Ben in a church and all spiritual about Thomas and not believing etc....i liked it!

JLes said...

Ever since the finale of Season 3 (Where Rousseau was re-united with Alex) I've suspected that Danielle and Ben had some sort of "agreement" all along. Ben probably promised to raise Alex safely, and not subject her to the "tests" of the island. This would probably explain why Rousseau didn't even look suprised when Ben said, "Alex, this is your mother." If Alex was really "stolen", Rousseau probably would have said, "YOU M*THER F*@#&$...YOU took my baby!!!" and given Ben a BEATDOWN. This would also explain how Rousseau knew Henry Gale "would lie for a very long time."

I suspect that Kate (very reluctantly) gave Aaron to Ben for similar reasons. He would ensure Aaron would grow up safely away from the "tests" of the island. This is also probably why they've been "kidnapping" children all along. Children are innocent.


Heather said...

Awesome episode I loved the end when it was Jin in the Darma getup.

I think the lefties flashed into the Darma time and got stuck there...I can see this as being the upcoming plot line..That is probably why we saw Faraday there in flashbacks and then they will show him finding little Charlotte and warning her not to return..etc. then again I could be way off...

I was really frustrated that no one asked Ben what had happened to him? come on..

I'm on board with the idea that Kate gave Arron to his grandmother but I feel really bad for the poor kid..just being handed over to a stranger and if it isn't Claire's mom who has him then it is another stranger...either way the kid must be freaked out.

Great comments so far this season is gonna get crazy!

lisa (lost pezhead) said...

i don't think anyone asked ben about his beatdown cause they all know ben won't give them an answer!

for a while i thought jack would leave ben in the dark...he didn't say what ms hawking "kept him after class" for and he didn't explain locke's letter at first...i'm not sure i liked seeing jack open up to ben on the plane about locke's letter and if locke's death was his fault etc.

Anonymous said...

NetProphet here (maybe I should set up a regular identity so I don't have to keep saying its me...)

1) I'm thinking Charlie Pace told Hurley that he had a plane to catch, and don't forget to pack a guitar. Do you think Hurley could have used some of his winning's to pick up a genuine Charlie guitar at some cheesey memorabilia shop?

2) I'm also wondering if it isn't a safer bet that Aaron was left to play with Sawyer's darling Clementine. Its pretty clear that Kate has been helping Cassidy out at Sawyer's request, and may have funneled some of her settlement money to her and Clementine along the way.

3) Mrs. Hawking says the Island continually moves. Its interesting to note that following the Swan incident on November 27, Penny's men target a location where her boat is able to find the Oceanic 6 on December 31. This indicates that the Isle was anchored in one place for over a month following the elimination of the Swan and its button system. Seems to imply that the Swan was involved as some sort of control system put in place by DHARMA to harness and regulate the ability of the Island to move in space (easier for the Galaga to make port calls if the Island can be held in place against its will for a bit). This in turn makes me think that the instruction for Locke to "move" the Island was meant that he jump start the natural, though unpredictable, spacial aspect of the Island's power, and that the temporal fluctuations are an unintended result of the deviation caused by Ben.

lisa (lost pezhead) said...

another lostie comments: "I wonder if Kate became pregnant during her latest encounter with Jack - a proxy for Claire's pregnancy on the original flight, as Locke's body is a proxy for Christian's."

Anonymous said...

During the scene with Hurley and the desk agent while he waiting for the flight - did anyone think that the lady with the boy they lingered on looked a lot like Juliet's sister? Or am I just seeing Easter eggs that aren't there!?!

Anonymous said...

I definitley feel that Ben may have killed Penny. He did say that he had to tie up a loose end for an OLD friend. Seeing Ben at the boat docks made me feel that he could have just come from Penny's Boat and got hurt from doing something bad to her. Since Ben is always lying it is hard to know what is going on. He claimed to not be privy to the fact that they must model the original flight, but I doubt it. He also said that he had no idea that Locke hung himself, but we see that he is there in next week's previews that he was indeed there. Anyways back to my point. I have two thoughts on the Penny thing. Either Ben was trying to emulate Sawyer by killing someone, Penny, prior to the flight like Sawyer. I was under the impression that Ben knew that Sawyer killed a person prior to Sawyer's arrival on the island. Or it could be just coincidence. The other point, could be that Ben either intentionally meant to get hurt. That is, he ordered someone to kick his ass so that he could emulate Locke by being somewhat disabled. Or he got injured during his fight with Penny and broke his arm that way. A lot to think about. If Penny did die, then that would help ensure that Desmond comes back to the island to do whatever he is destined to do. Which could lead to young Charlie being orphaned in some way which will affect his future.


Gareth said...

Hmmm, not sure about this one. A small bit confuzzled now.

What is the point and motive behind imitating the original crash over Guam? I mean what benefits does it hold?

Some points to muse over:

- Ben "My mother taught me to read"

We all know Ben's mother died giving birth to him so this comment has thrown me a bit, it's not exactly something you would say if your mother had died giving birth to you - or is Ben a different case altogether?

Is it possible that Ben has insight into the reality outside of the 'hiccup' caused by the losties leaving the Island and the effect inheritance caused by this? In the 'course corrected' Universe does Ben's mother survive child birth?

- Jack's Grandfather

Thoughts on this addition to Jack's personal life? I'm really not sure if he has any relevance to what is happening, but given Christians profound involvement in the goings on I find it hard to believe 'grandfather' Shepard is of no consequence

- Ben's beatdown

I'm at a loss here also, don't necessarily think he tried to kill Penny (I don't think Ben does anything without extreme care and caution and copious plotting - I've a feeling he received his injuries from another party this time around.

- Culmination of events

Miss Hawking is an intriguing character indeed, but her efforts seem to have been entirely focused on Desmond up until now. I was surprised at how unenthusiastic she was about getting Desmond to return after his revelation of events, surely after previous efforts one would have assumed Desmond's return would have been her highest priority.

KoreAmBear said...

"If so, how in the world did he get the authorities to transport Sayid to Guam, of all places?"

When Hurley was checking in, it showed that the flight was going was connecting through Honolulu to Guam? Maybe Sayid was to go to Honolulu and then back to Australia?

ellipsis said...

despite the fact that it doesn't add up, I laughed for five minutes when Jack was like "How can you read?"
"My mother taught me."


and I swore Ben said John and not Jack, too!

DX didn't make the connection with the whole marina-boats-penny-bloody ben

D: D: D: i don't want penny dead :(

Anonymous said...

It is funny and probably means nothing but when Jacks grandfather said freckles about Kate all I could think about was Sawyer.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Good thoughts, all. Wasn't 3:16 on Eko's stick? When I first heard the title of the episode, I thought of a compass bearing.

Jack's grandpa stood out, and, I know it sounds weird, but in closeup, he had those odd bottom teeth like Matthew Fox, I wondered is this Jack as an old man after Dharma-Jack aged? Then I thought of the phrase I always use to explain time travel, The Grandfather Paradox. So maybe the grandfather--seriously, never mentioned before?--is just a tell about the time travel and a reminder (since Faraday wasn't around, ha ha) to not try and change things. (Doc Jensen at EW also said the two Shepards would be a "pair o' docs," so there's that.) But the grandfather came out of nowhere, so come on.

Last year Tom told Michael that the Island wouldn't let him die. Would the Island LET Locke die because it wanted a resurrection?

Always enjoying the comments from everyone. Netprophet, you do need a real name, I'd email you right off. You can reach me through my blog as I listen to Geronimo Jackson.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oh, one more thing. If they can't put Faraday in the episode, Frank Lapidus will do.

Gareth said...

Frank Lapidus is fail without the Beard :(

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Would anyone trust him as the pilot with that old pointy thing? I was surprised when he came out of the cockpit, and if he is on the Island, it will grow back.

When I mentioned Jack as his own Granddad, I should have mentioned that evidently Granddad was addled and maybe everyone has their memories messed with after the Orchid goes online and in future years. Doubtful, but a crazy thought.

If Faraday shaves, THEN I'll be pissed.

80sPro said...

Faraday MUST NOT shave.

And Frank looked about 10 years younger and NOT three years OLDER. But he'd be straight now that he's flying again, so all cleaned up and such.

Shore are some good looking men on this show, and that doesn't even INCLUDE fan fave Sawyer.

And I wondered if I heard John too. But then thought no, he's just speaking softly. Right? RIGHT?

Alex said...

I am still trying to determine if the plane crashes or the crew members are transported ala purple flash of light to the island. We know sawyer and co. encounter the other group when they find the Agjir Airways bottle in the island style raft. Yet, there is no wreckage that we have seen yet so I think someone may have been holding that bottle in their hand as that is how all things are transported as Juliet said.

Wayne - I have no doubt that was on Eko's stick, I have no way of going back and checking but I def want to make sure...

Bigmouth said...

Sorry for the delay in posting! Work and family stuff are keeping me busy this week. As I mentioned above, I probably won't be able to post three-dot thoughts. But I'm reading and enjoying all your comments and will try to pop in this weekend with some replies.

memphish said...

John 3:05 was on Eko's stick.

As for the Narnia thing, more Narnia spoilers, disappearing from the crashing train wasn't actually saving them, it was their death and they went from there to heaven.

lockerocks said...

According to Lostpedia transcripts, Ben said "We're all convinced sooner or later, Jack."

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure Kate willingly left Aaron with anyone. If she's such a loving mother I don't think anything could convince her that going back to the island was more important that staying with "her" child. I'm more inclined to believe that Claire's mother found out that Aaron was her grandchild (she does have the same lawyer as Ben). Ben could have relayed the info to Claire's mom and with legal action perhaps Kate couldn't say no knowing a blood test would seal her fate. So she did what she does best - she cut and run and where better to really hide from reality than back on the island
I'm also bothered that Sun would not be concerned about possibly never seeing her daughter again. But it's highly possible that with a Widmore connection she believes she will still be able to leave the island again once she finds Jin.
I also think Ben at least tried to kill Penny. I think killing Penny may be the only way Desmond willingly goes back to the island. I don't want Penny to die but it seems kind of inevitable esp since Ben promised to do it.

Andy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ellipsis said...

what I think about Ben getting beat up is perhaps he went off to take care of Penny and Desmond walks in with him holding a gun and either Penny's already dead or she's nearly there and Desmond just explodes at Ben ....

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Few thoughts in general, going back to last episode:

when Charlotte screamed "This place is death," I really want to think that she was repeating an argument her mom and dad were having, this what her mom screamed at dad before she left the Island.

The man who built the pendulm and the map, I think is Hanso. I don't really get how the DI knew there was an Island (a possibility was that 1954 Army photo), but, then again, I don't believe much of what Hawking says at this point.

Since Widmore and Ellie/Eloise (?) were there in 1954, there could be reason to know OF the Island, but maybe it was a "leap of faith" to believe it moves the way it does.

Also, and I know its more to move the plot along, but the Hostiles take out the US Army within a few days, but they can't Purge the Iniative until 1992? Kate could climb the sonic fence. Did Alpert need someone to discover the Tempest, likely it was Ben and Dad doing the rounds in the Dharma van. I'm sure the next episodes will fill in a few blanks, but with so much front-loaded this season, I wonder what will be left for 2010.

80sPro said...

Wayne - we can say that the story "seems" almost done but then something else happens to spin the story on its axis (as it were).

Christie - I like your theory there. I bet any money that's what happened.

Elipsis - I want Penny to live too, but the only thing that will bring Desmond back is ANY possibility of revenge on Ben. So my bet is that Ben was successful. Of course as usual I am the resident "bleeding heart for kids" and wonder what must have happened to the three of them....has to be something better than fear and abandonment....

Capcom said...

Great observations everyone! And thanks for the pendulum graphics in your post Big.

Has anyone noticed that the Bible verse that Ben mentions about when Thomas was faithful, is in the chapter of John(11) that is about Lazarus coming back to life? Another hint from TPTB I guess, about how Jack might see a living Locke on the island when they get back.

Bigmouth said...

Gigi: I definitely agree the Island is the key to eternal life...of a sort. I have a couple of "final scene" predictions. One of them has the characters who are still alive encountering everyone who has ever died on the show. When someone (Hurley?) expresses surprise, one of the dead characters (Charlie?) will reply "We don't have to think like that anymore..."

lockerocks: I agree. Great episode but with lots of blanks still left to fill in.

Fargus: I tend to think the "you're not supposed to raise him" is a reference to Aaron. But I could definitely see it applying to Locke, as well.

machramm: I assume the woman with Sayid was some kind of Marshal. It's interesting how him being in custody mirrors Kate and Marshal Mars in the first crash.

Landa: I'm with you 100% that Sayid is in custody because of Ben. As I recall, the former threatens to hurt the latter if he ever sees him again. So, I'm guessing that explains Ben's injuries. I also agree that Ms. Hawking seemed strangely unmoved by news of her son being in danger.

80sPro: I have to admit, the possibility that Widmore is Daniel's father is growing on me. Do you suppose that's why they were quarreling? What if Charles forces Ellie to leave the Island to give birth to their son?

Mary: Good call re Kate leaving Aaron with Claire's mom. It seemed odd that they brought Mrs. Littleton back just to confuse Kate and Jack about who was taking Aaron. Leaving him with her makes a LOT more sense.

Scott: At first, the whole recreation of the crash bothered me, too. But I realized that it's a great symbol for some important existential themes of the show. I think, as well, that there may be something of a pattern to these crashes. It's almost like the Island is reliving some ancient crash over and over again like a haunting or recording of some kind. Hmmm...could this event loop be the source of all the loop symbolism on the show?

neaux: I agree that Locke's ghost may have visited Hurley and that the two new characters made it too the Island, too -- good call on both counts!

BJ: I wonder about that...I wonder if seeing Penny with a child will calm Ben's bloodlust.

Annie from Lockedinthetrunk: I don't think the kids are on the plane, but were they *supposed* to be on the plane? I wonder if those two new characters made it too the Island because Aaron and Ji-Yeon weren't present when they were supposed to be.

x: Like I said...I really hope you all are wrong re Ben and Penny...but I worry you're not.

Lisa: I wondered about the submarine, too. It occurred to me the Swan Station might have somehow made it easier to travel to and from the Island. But the freighter crew used the zodiac raft to go back and forth with no problems, so it's something of a mystery.

JLes: Although I tend to believe Rousseau that the Others kidnapped Alex, the possibility you raise crossed my mind, as well. Specifically, I wondered if Rousseau knew about the Caduceus station because she gave birth to Alex there...

Heather: I completely agree -- I'll bet they were in the time of Dharma when Locke put the Wheel back on its axis.

Netprophet: Great call re Charlie convincing Hurley to go back -- and telling him to bring a guitar! You also raise an interesting possibility re Kate leaving Aaron with Clementine. BTW, I'm on the same wavelength about the Swan station somehow regulating the Swan's movement. But then how do we explain the freighter folks traveling back and forth in helicopters and zodiac rafts?

J: mean Rachel? I'm going to have to watch that scene again.

Charliedontsurf: I really, really hope seeing little Charlie gives Ben pause.

Gareth: Oh may be onto something about Ben wanting to create or restore a timeline where his mommy never died. I'm also with you about Lapidus looking wrong without the beard. I feel the same way about Phil Jackson (coach of the LA Lakers) who shaved his beard this year.

KoreAmBear: Hmmm...good question. Perhaps it relates somehow to the terrorist cell Sayid infiltrated in Australia? But then, why would Sayid be in American custody?

ellipsis: Would you believe I completely missed the "my mother" taught me to read line? The comments section of this blog has become required reading!

Anonymous: Maybe it means nothing, but I get the feeling Jack's grandfather's story isn't done.

Wayne: I don't think Jack's grandfather is Jack, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him again on the show. I'm guessing grandpa will tell a story about his own father (i.e., Jack's great-grandfather and Aaron's great-great grandfather) named...Jacob Shephard. Good question about why the Island allowed Locke, but not Michael, to die. It must have something to do with Locke's destiny...but what? I've always felt like Locke was a John the Baptist figure. Someone pointed out on thefuselage that J the B was mistaken for the Messiah. Could they be setting Locke up as a false Messsiah?

BTW, I absolutely love your suggestion that Charlotte was reliving an old fight between her parents about the Island!

Alex: It sure seemed like the same flash that accompanied their skipping through time.

memphish: Well, they were still "saved," just in a different sense, but your point is well taken.

Christie: I agree -- there will have to be a *very* compelling explanation as to why Kate and Sun were willing to leave Aaron and Ji Yeon behind. It seems very odd that they were apparently so willing to do so.

Capcom: Hmmm...didn't catch the Lazarus connection. I could definitely see Locke waking up alive on the Island. Good call!

Bigmouth said...

I was looking for websites that might help explain why Dharma used a simple pendulum to model the Island's movement through different energy states. I found this succinct explanation by a poster named Rich L. on a physics forum that does the job well:

To make this clearer, consider a vibrating string. In classical mechanics we talk of the individual atoms of the string and how they are connected elastically to their neighbors. We understand the motion of the string in terms of the motions of the individual atoms. An alternative representation is as the collective motion of the string as waves, where the motions of the individual atoms are not explicitly represented. This wave can be described in terms of its wavelength (i.e. momentum) and/or energy (amplitude). Both representations are correct. (Whether each is complete is an other question...)

The collective motion of the vibrating string makes as much sense as the collective motion of a pendulum, even though the individual atoms are not making the same movements at the same time, they are still part of the same motion and are all interconnected. Anything that alters the vibration of the string alters the collective motion exactly analogous to a pendulum being disturbed. An just as a pendulum can be abstracted to a point mass at the end of a massless rod, the wave on string can be abstracted as a single pendulum.

Full text here.

machramm said...

Regarding the submarine ... A friend of mine has a theory that the submarine is simply a diversionary tactic and not the actual method of travel (by Juliette, for example) to the island. He thinks it doesn;t really make sense for them to knock her out for a simple submarine trip.

I am not sure about the sub, but I do think there is more to the lamppost station than just locating the island. I believe there is more to it than that - perhaps even a portal to the island. There must be a method to the island other than crashing a vessel. Richard and friendly seemingly came and went as they pleased, so I think there is a more direct method of island arrival/departure. Maybe something like the donkey wheel - only more precise in destination.

Gareth said...

That's an interesting extract Big, perhaps some of it flew over my head but I got the general gist of it. However, I always thought it was just a case of convenience that the Pendulum was used. Clearly I was wrong though.

Going back to the Ben issue I was pondering over - his mother and what not; the only reason I brought up the 'external knowledge' possibility is because while Ben may be fierce in his resolve he is also at heart a rational and practical man, I believe. The fact that he would dismiss jacks inquire as to what will happen to the remaining people on the plane with a blasse "Who cares" leads me to assume he knows their lives (as they stand now) are of no real consequence in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately it would appear that Ben has a far greater understanding of the bigger picture than most of if not anyone else (Bar Richard and the Zombie crew) on or off the Island, and simple writing off an entire sum of people ( as expendable) only further makes me believe that he knows if the 6 don't get back to the Island everyone is dead anyway (why?) which would make one assume that if they do 'fix' things that there will be a revert in time(?) back to the pinnacle of the incident. Thus, rendering any casualties and events in the mean time null - similar in kind, to your 'all the dead people will come back in the end' theory about the climax Big.

80sPro said...

I posted long ago - and was fairly dismissed (not here) that I believe the end will be the beginning. Or at least, I think that's part of it. Or maybe. Hell, this show confuses me so bad I could be completely wrong about it.

But something tells me we're going to end up "back" somewhere. Not to where Oceanic 815 crashes I don't think. Somewhere else.

Will Locke live again? Possibilities are pretty good. But then why can't others be resurrected? There must be some good reason why Locke and Ben and Jack and Christian are seemingly "the chosen ones".

I like the theory about Jacob Shepherd. That would work quite nicely.

Capcom said...

Well 80spro, that was not very nice of them. There are lots of ways that TPTB could bring us back to the first scenes again, they do it every week with other subjects and scenes don't they? Case in point, how they showed the return to the island in the beginning and the end of episode 6 last week (was that a hint?)! And the timeline is always jumping around too. So what you posted is not so crazy to me. :-)

Personally, I hope that something like that won't be the very final scene because in Via Domus (spoiler here if anyone hasn't played it yet) that's what happens, and it would be a shame for us to be expecting this conclusion because of that ending. TPTB have said that the game is not the show, so hopefully the ending will be more fulfilling than that, if it does indeed somehow come full circle.

I would be satisfied if the ending sentiment was showing the remaining major Losties coming to terms with whatever it is that's to be their job for maintenance and upkeep of the island, and looking off into the sunset in the general direction of The World, with no desire whatsoever to go back to it.

Capcom said...

P.S. Or, in the end, the original Losties are old and crotchety and a new plane lands/crashes full of fresh people to replace the Losties in their island-keeping duties. :o)

80sPro said...

oh, that's GOOD! They won't end it the way the game did.

No, my own thought was really that Jack would be holding that CB Radio and decides to NOT call the freighter. That is when our Losties divided, Claire was lost, etc.

But the more into the season I get the more I'd like the idea that they just determine that for bad or worse the Island is the place to be. Their own Private Idaho.

There are complications either way. Alas, I am strapped in and ready for more dizzying heights and plummets. Who knows how it goes?

Mark Clouden said...
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