Wednesday, March 04, 2009

Thoughts on LaFleur...

One perk of living in Los Angeles is hearing the legendary Vin Scully call games for the Dodgers, a local baseball franchise. I hate the Dodgers, but Vin is perhaps my favorite announcer of any sport, ever. It's not just his objectivity and lyrical delivery. What also sets Vin apart is his knowledge of a wide variety of subjects besides sports. When, for example, pitcher Osiris Matos takes the mound, Vin loves to launch into a discourse on Osiris, the Egyptian god of the underworld.



I thought of Vin and his ancient Egyptian obsession last night as we saw not one, but two, offspring of the mythical Osiris referenced on Lost. The first was the four-toed statue, which I'm guessing was Anubis, the jackal-headed guardian of the afterlife. The Egyptians believed that Anubis was responsible for weighing the hearts of all souls seeking entrance to the underworld. The Greeks (e.g., Plato) called Anubis the "dog god" and associated him with Cerberus.



I'm reminded of one of my all-time favorite speculations, first articulated by Lost blogger lacenaire. The Island is based upon myths and legends concerning Amenti, the Egyptian land of the dead. Much of what we know about Amenti comes from the Book of the Dead. This acient Egyptian funerary text contains many striking parallels to Lost -- e.g., references to recovery of the use of lost limbs and trial before the 42 divine judges of Osiris, to name just two.



At some point in the distant past, Egyptians found the Island and began worshiping its security system as Anubis. Their reports of the Island's miraculous powers became the basis for the accounts of Amenti in sacred texts. Interestingly, the Book of the Dead also describes an eternal battle between the two opposing forces of nature, light and darkness. This battle will supposedly rage until the birth of a new baby Horus, who promises to restore the divine order of the Cosmos.

And that brings me to the second nod in last night's episode to an offspring of mythical Osiris. The name Horace Goodspeed is a reference to his son Horus, the Egyptian sky god and leader of the aforementioned forces of light. I've touched before upon the messianic pun of the name Horus/Horace. At first, I figured it was a clue to some secret objective of the Dharma Initiative to scientifically engineer a new messiah. After last night's episode, however, I have to wonder...



Obviously, the identity of Horace and Amy's baby is big question mark. We know it's a boy, and I'll bet he's a character we've already met as an adult. I also suspect that, since he was born on the Island, he's someone with a strong connection to it. I know that doesn't narrow it down much, so this is probably premature. But if you're willing to follow me down the whackadoo well, consider the possibility that we just witnessed the birth of an Island messiah named Jacob.



Sorry for the delay in updating. Here at long last, in the spirit of Herb Caen, are some three-dot thoughts on La Fleur:

YOU WERE AMAZING TODAY. Judging by your comments, this episode really touched a nerve. It seems that at least part of what determined whether you loved or hated it was whether you bought Sawyer and Juliet settling down together in Dharmaville. As M the Alien kindly reminds me, I've been a proponent of those two kissing in a tree since as far back as There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 and 3. I feel their chemistry has only improved throughout this season, so it's no surprise that, like a lot of you, I loved this episode.

But Skaters take heart! Sawyer's choice of alias -- i.e., La Fleur, which is French for "the flower" -- may be a clue that his relationship with Juliet is merely a dalliance. I suspect it refers to the alias (i.e., Flower) chosen by Leopold Bloom to correspond with his mistress in Ulysses, the novel Ben was reading on Ajira 316. That episode of Ulysses parallels the Land of the Lotus Eaters in the Odyssey, where Odysseus and Co. meet a people who feed them soporific lotus flowers that cause the Greeks to lose their desire to return home.

The implication may be that Sawyer and Juliet's relationship and the last three years generally have been a kind of fantasy for the Lefties. Like the phone jarring Sawyer and Juliet from their sleep, the Lefties' dream existence as members of Dharma is about to end with the return of Kate and the rest of the Oceanic 6...

YOUR BUDDY OUT THERE WITH THE EYELINER. Sawyer's reference to Richard wearing guyliner was a joke -- Nestor Carbonell's eyelashes are naturally dark. Still, it's hard to ignore the timing in an episode filled with Egyptian references. I'm with those who think it's a hint that Alpert, like the foot of Anubis, is a living relic of the Island's ancient Egyptian past. Someone eventually would have played this role -- the faith equivalent of Faraday. The failure of Carbonell's other project Cain (the Lords of Kobol heard my prayer) made him the natural choice in so many ways...

An immortal Richard also fits with the aforementioned Ulysses reference. Many Joyce scholars have noted the way main character Leopold Bloom combines elements of Odysseus with the Wandering Jew, who taunted Jesus on the road to cucifixion and was cursed to wander the Earth until the Second Coming. I've suggested before that Richard's agelessness might refer to this medieval myth. This could also explain his role as a kind of Panchen Lama. Did Richard somehow deny the Island its messiah by refusing to take Locke as a young child?

DID YOU BURY THE BOMB? I loved how Sawyer turned the tables on Richard with inside references like the Jughead. What compelled me was the way Sawyer, usually the consummate bluffer, put all his cards on the table. For some reason, that act of authenticity helped me to believe his transformation from reviled con man into respectable figure of authority ala Han Solo in Star Wars. I think another big factor in whether people liked La Fleur was whether they bought that character arc. And, for the foregoing reasons, I really believed it...

Speaking of the Jughead, I've got a whackadoo speculation of how that part of the story will play out. The Swan Orientation film mentions an Incident, and Kelvin suggested that it involved a leak of the Island's exotic engergy. What if detonation of the Jughead is what causes the Incident? The explosion may be a mistake -- the result of Dharma drilling unwittingly where the Others buried the bomb. In my more whackadoo moments, however, I think someone (Daniel?) will detonate the Jughead in an effort to sabotage the Dharma Initiative...

THAT FENCE MAY KEEP OTHER THINGS OUT.... I was struck by Richard's comment, which presumably refers to the Cerberus security system since we've actually seen the fence repel Smokey. What continues to mystify me is why Dharma needed protection from Smokey when there was a control room located right underneath a house in Dharmaville. Was the access tunnel some later modification by Ben? Or does its presence imply that Dharma once operated with blessing of, or even controlled, the Cerberus security system?

I think part of the answer may relate to the nature of that truce Richard mentioned between Dharma and the Others. Were the latter always hostile to the former? If not, what sparked the hostilities? And most importantly, what drove the parties to their truce? Considering the ease with which Richard entered Dharmaville, as well as his comment about the fence not keeping "us" out, I get the sense the Others could have purged Dharma almost any time they wanted. What authority restrained them from doing so much sooner? Was it...Jacob?

I'M NOT GOING TO DO IT. When the rest of the Lefties found Daniel, he was muttering this line. Many of you, myself included, interpreted him to be talking about little Charlotte. Despite Dan's conviction that whatever happened, happened, he seems determined not to tell Charlotte to leave this time around. By virtue of her new memory before dying, Faraday now faces the same basic dilemma as Desmond did with Charlie. Dan has received the equivalent of a flash of future events that may be linked to Charlotte's death. Can he resist the urge to change things?

I say he'll try, but that fate will intervene. As 80sPro notes, Dan has already become the babbling madman who will scare little Charlotte. He may simply be unable to resist the urge to save her. Indeed, if you watch the scene in slow motion where he sees her skipping across Dharmaville, you can actually pinpoint the second when his heart rips in half. I'm guessing, however, that some threat to the Island will force Faraday's hand. Hence my aforementioned Jughead speculation. Even if Dan doesn't detonate the thing himself, he'll have to save Charlotte from the threat...

That's all for this episode -- let me know what you think! As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

74 comments:

Jenny said...

We totally just saw Ben Linus being born, didn't we?

Anonymous said...

No, Ben Linus wasn't born on the Island. We saw him be born in Season 3 Episode 20 "The Man Behind the Curtain"

Stacy said...

I loved this episode. It is joining my "Best of" list for sure. Ok, indulge me...a new theory popped into my head when watching "La Fleur". On the plane, Ben told Jack his mother taught him how to read, which seemed impossible since she died in childbirth. When Juliet was brought to the island, there was a conversation about how she looked just like "her", meaning the portrait that hangs in his home. Isn't it possible, since they are now trapped in Dharma time, that Juliet in some way acts as a surrogate to Ben as a child? Maybe in pity at the abuse and neglect he endures, she may think to change the future with her kindness. Which would easily explain his later obsession with her? Like I said, indulge me. It's late and I'm getting tired!

Anonymous said...

ow. brain. hurting.

1977? I guess if you have to live through any of the 70s again, you might as well do it on the island.

Even if Horace's son is not significant in the story so far, thats him and of course his mom who are alive only because of the 815 - and doesn't that change something? I would guess that the whole 'cant change the past' thing has to get thrown out the window - I mean you have people converging to that point in the past maybe to stay; some more has to change than just this first event.

I forgot for a moment that Jin rolled up in the van in the prior episode. I was waiting for Sawyer and Juliet to stop and look up to see a plane crash - which i thought would have been a nice tie in to the first 815 event - via Juliet.

My wife, ever the more cut-to-the-chase as far as this show goes, raised the annoying thought that we, as viewers have now just had the whole Lost journey reset to zero, a whole new set of characters and a new direction. It is no longer the 815 survivors versus the island+others (3 seasons), not 815 versus the Freighter (1 season), but now (2 seasons?) 815+DI+others(maybe) versus ben(likely)+others(likely) and those who would sacrifice them all to restore whatever the order is supposed to be. Me, im still trying to understand why Ben killed John.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Stacy, Ben was being sarcastic to Jack on the plane. You could be right about Ben and Juliet, more like he had a schoolboy kind of crush on her.

@ow brain hurting anon. The way Faraday would explain it: Horace and his wife were saved by Sawyer and Juliet because it had already happened. He was mumbling quite a bit, and part of it was knowing he told Charlotte something when she was little, I think he was saying he would NOT try to keep her from leaving the Island. But during that scene, he pretty much was telling the rest that they could do whatever they damn well wanted, because it had happened already. His 2004 perspective on their 1974 past.

Looking fwd to everyone's comments and Bigmouth's bullet points.

Aaron said...

Stacy I think that's a good idea.

My thought on this guy Paul's body being taken back by the Others, it seems to me to confirm the suspicion that some of them perhaps through Smokey able to breathe new life into bodies. They lost two men and the only way to replace them was to get a new body or vessel. It starts to get into Big Mouth's theories of aliens.

Also, Jeff Jensen's speculation about Locke today seems right in the specific sense that someone tried to kill his mother to prevent him from being born and coming to the Island, but he wasn't allowed to die and was born anyway. Then he resisted attempts to fulfill his destiny (Richard's test and the counselor's advice about the school in Portland) and perhaps we'll learn that Ben or someone else tried to exert some influence there. Then he survived the fall that should have killed him and was helped along to the Island by Abbadon etc.

Anonymous said...

Username: Quackers

I'm thinking that Daniel doesn't have all the answers regarding "whatever happened, happened" and time travel in general, he knows some, but not all. There is a problem with Olivia giving birth to a son that wasn't "supposed to" exist, because she should have been killed.

Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

Initial observations:

I am not a Juliet fan. Don’t trust her and believes that she knows a lot more. After saying all of that, I felt sorry for her during this episode. Once again she’s developed feelings for someone who belongs/loves someone else.

I’ve grown to like Sawyer. While I could understand on a basic level letting go the past and embracing the now. I still don’t like what he’s doing/will do to Juliet. The fact that he lied to Juliet about Jack and company returning proves that he wasn’t over Kate. I quickly thought about the Juliet/Jack connection. Sawyers’ reaction was too quick; it’s the possibility of seeing Kat. His conversation with Horace was telling. Foreshadowing is something else, ain’t it? Juliet stayed to be with Sawyer, that we know so far, and it looks like she’s about to be chucked to the side. From a woman’s POV, that sucks.

Sawyer’s built up a frightening reputation within three years.

We see the Dharma folks are just plain ole sneaky. Sawyer and Juliet saves Amy’s life and what do she do? Knock ‘em out. (lol) Thought maybe Juliet should have seen that one coming – knowing the different levels of control on the sonic fence. Maybe I should go easy on Juliet … NOT!

While Richard maybe be ageless, he isn’t all that all knowing as I once thought. As we continue to learn his story, we’ll see the real Richard. What’s with the ‘give up the body or there’s gonna be trouble’ stuff? Do they (hostiles) use it as some type of sacrifice? And what truce did the Dharma Folks and the Hostiles agree to?

We saw the submarine. I was always under the impression that it was a prop, does it really work?

How has it been three years for both sets of groups since they’ve seen each other? I get that it’s been three years for the ones who were off island, but, the ones who stayed behind? Why three? Plot storyline? Where’s Bernard and Rose? I assumed that they were time hopping with the rest.

We saw the back of the four toe stature, how far in the past did they flash? The back, especially around the head looked funny.

mary said...

I loved how they showed the statue. That was just too freaky. Being Lost I won't see it again until next year. Very interesting about the need for the bodies. If they had a truce why would the hostiles kill the dharmas. Is it time for a sacrifice and for whom? Jacob, Smokey, The foot?

I really like the episode. I'm still processing everything. Though I'm bummed that I have to wait two weeks for the next one. What is so important that they did that?

neaux said...

Glad they showed the statue too. But from behind.

Could it be Anubis?
http://www.egyptianmyths.net/anubis.htm

Adding fuel to the thought that Richard Alpert is the Sun god RA (same initials).. and this would also explain Richard's guyliner. Since the egyptians were known and depicted often in their eyeliner make up.

80sPro said...

Oooh, he even has that dark eyed look, neaux. Notice how Sawyer called him "eyeliner"? That was funny.

The thing that struck me the most was Daniel mumbling I won't tell her this time. He's been here before and he knows it. Does he know the others were with him?

Interesting about them saving lives. It lends credence to the whole been here before done that thing. Weird.

I am not sure Sawyer will foresake Juliet, Poohbear. I think it will be Kate that gets the shocker on this one. He knew her 108 days, and has been with Juliet longer. Yes he lied. But I think that the expression on his face was concern. For her in part, but also the promise he asked of her as he dove out. I think he and Juliet have been through a lot.

Great way to get Jin up to English speed!

Where was Daniel whole episode? Down in the Swan?

Glad to see Miles made it. Hmmm. Guess that means he isn't wee Hallowchang. Or maybe he is.

Olivia's baby - significant? Who?

Previews for next show (ack - two weeks!) looks PROMISING!

80sPro said...

Amy - I meant Amy's baby.

Alex said...

neaux

That is an interesting theory, as that statue clearly represents something as not human and we have come to realize that Alpert is ageless. However, I think this may apply more to the Black Rock and Jacob.

I am still trying to take in last night's episode...

Amy's child is significant but I cannot think of who it might be or why this person is so important. If children cannot be born on the island based on what Ben and Juliet's experience. How is it that this child is born and who is he?

Anonymous said...

I thought the statue looked like Anubis. He was the gatekeeper for the underworld which fits with Paul's ankh necklace.
-J

Anonymous said...

as they're both Egyptian symbols.
-J

Gareth said...

Great episode again. In regards to peoples theories about Richard being a God of sorts I'm not so sure. I have always believed that when all is said and done Lost will - in some respect - be grounded in plausible reality, obviously this is exceptional as time travel has been a massive part of this season. I do think however that Richard is pivotal to the arch of the story as a whole. We still don't know if the disturbances were relegated to time shifts, is it possible that there were also dimensional shifts (allowing for alternative Universes to enter ours - perhaps Richard is from a vastly superior civilization) in relation to the Island and matter pocket within it.

I do really like your theory Neaux, but I just find it hard to swallow - in so far as that I can't see the writers taking the show in that direction. Nevertheless it is a possibility, especially with the ever looming presence of that statue.

As for the Child that is born, we know that the Dharma were wiped out ( Although I'm a bit confused now as the losties are there, do they leave at some point?)and that if the Child survived it would be what, 30 odd years old when the Losties first arrive on the Island? I think this one is up in the air to be honest.

One thing that has been playing on my mind though is Daniels mutterings about not saying anything to Charlotte 'this' time. Charlotte disappeared when the final flash struck, however everyone else did not - what does this mean? Personally I think it means that Charlotte was never meant to be in that time-line (course correction) and ultimately ceases to exist when Locke Fixes the Wheel. Why? Well because obviously Daniel now convinces her to stay and she dies with the rest of the Dharma when Ben purges the camp, thus erases her from the future (time-line) that was currently being played out by the Losties. This is only my initial thought though, and could be ever so wrong.

However it does beg the question, everything the Losties are now doing is affecting the future, I;m not so sure Daniel is correct about whats done is done - but who knows.

By the way, I'm not sure but can there be two version (or more) of any person at one time? I ask this because if the Losties stay on the Island now, then surely at some point history will see them being born in the natural World, and in that case which is the correct course of fate? Perhaps this could help to explain some peoples feelings that Jacob is indeed one of the Losties (hence one person existing simultaneously in one time line).

aims said...

Love reading along. I don't really have any theories, just more questions:

I'm with Poohbear - Where are Rose and Bernard?!

Where was Daniel 3 years later, and is he still wearing the tie?

If it appears that the Oceanic 5, jumped to the 70s before the Ajira crash, who is the woman with the pilot who took the other boat, I assume it was Sun, but think she must have jumped to the 70s.

Can someone make the record skip again, so we can jump ahead 2 weeks?! What is ABC airing next week?

aims said...

Ok - maybe half a theory... Is there something significant about burials? Did it seem like it was part of the truce that the two Others needed to be buried in the ground, for other reasons than just hiding the bodies? Perhaps that if someone is buried, they can be reborn, that Richard knows this, and that is why during the Purge the bodies were just thrown in an open graved, not buried?

f/k/a NetProphet said...

Now I'm not "Anonymous" anymore.

Dan says Charlotte's body "moved on", but it seems to me that her remains really stayed put (in the time of the statue?) when Dan and the rest went off to 1974. So if dead bodies stay put when the time flashes occur... could this be why John Locke/Jeremy Bentham had to die? When the flash hit Flight 316 and dragged Jack, Kate and Hurley off to 1977, "dead" Locke was left behind to end up on Hydra Island in 2007. I suppose we'll need to see what era Sun and Sayid show up in before its conclusive, but it might be interesting to see if there is some important task for ressurected Locke to do in 2007.

Along these lines, it occurs to me that if changing the course of man/altering the Valenzetti equation involves a change somewhere in the time stream, it might be something best accomplished by working from both ends - past and future working together to create a certain present. Like a jump rope, the middle part swings best with a hand on each end.

Anonymous said...

Annie from lockedinthetrunk....

BEST EPISODE EVER!

1) seeing the statue was the highlight of my evening, and after reading a bunch of stuff on the interwebs this morning, i have to agree that from the back it does in fact look a lot like the Egyptian hippo fertility goddess.

2) 80's pro, i totally agree with you, i don't think Sawyer will "dump" Juliet, i think he really does love her and i think she really does love him, sure it'll be awkward at first, but they have stuff to do and things to take care of, i don't think there will be a love square. And Sawyer called Richard "eyeliner"??? LOL ok i missed that one, gonna have to pay more attention next time.

3) "whatever happened, happened"? you know what, i don't think that's totally true. first thing i thought when we realized that Horuce was having a baby with that woman (who wasn't meant to survive past having a bag on her head) was "this is going to affect Ben coming to the island" Horuce and his blond companion rescued Roger and newborn Ben... will the universe course correct and still send Horuce down that road with that blond? Or has this new path, one on which Horuce and Amy have a baby that was not supposed to be, totally change everything for Ben?

And again, this child that wasn't meant to be has to mean something.

3) WHERE ARE ROSE AND BERNARD??? are they the people Jin and Sawyer are discussing trying to find in different quadrants of the island? I suppose its possible that they are in another time period all together... perhaps our Adam and Eve from season 1?

4) When Horuce when outside to talk to Richard, and they addressed each other by their last names, this made me think of Richard telling a young Widmore to put his gun down... and then it occurred to me.... Could Horuce be an other? Could it be that at some point Horuce, and perhaps other others, decided that the way Richard was leading wasn't for them and they agreed on a truce that they would be allowed to leave "the tribe" and form their own, dharma. It would explain why Richard would agree to such a truce to begin with.

Plus Horuce built Jacob's cabin, coincidence, i think not.

4) this one is in regards to last weeks episode... Do we believe Helen is really dead? i dont think so.

Jason said...

Epic episode, can't wait to see your thoughts (and read the great posts in the comments section)

JLes said...

Wow....Not trying to be a downer here...but, aside from seeing the statue I thought that episode totally sucked. One of my least favorite of the entire series. NOTHING was answered, and I couldn't care much less about the Kate/Juliette/Sawyer love triangle. "Are they gonna get together? Is he gonna break Juliette's heart!?!" Who....cares.... Juliette wasn't even in the picture like 5 episodes ago.

The only fun game we can play from that episode is "Who is Amy's Kid?"

I've got two guesses:

One...Ethan. This would be especially Ironic considering Ethan is the one who recruited Juliette to the Island...and then she was the one who delivered him!

Two...(my favorite). DESMOND! No good justification for this thought except that Amy was supposed to be dead, and that kid wasn't supposed to be born. Maybe that's why the "rules don't apply to him", and he's "uniquely special"?

Great comments though people.

Heather said...

Hi Everyone!

Interesting comments, I enjoyed the episode but oh so many things now...my head hurts

I just want to throw out there that the mystery baby of Amy's has to be younger if they are in the 70's and Little Charlotte who we got a glimpse of is I'd say about two already...my thoughts were that Charlotte was not that old probably like 28ish. who knows it will be interesting to see how that all plays out.

I'm a little distraught at the preview for the next episode it looks to be that Swayer is going to turn against his fellow 815'ers so he doesn't have to give up his true identity and darma life.

Where are Rose and Bernard?? Did the writer's just cut them out? When Swayer was saying they should go back to the beach no one even acknowledged that they still had fellow crash survivors there?? Didn't Miles say "whats the point your camp is gone" ?? to my knowledge I thought they would all be flashing together.....so confussed

statue was awesome..and super creepy, hopefully it will come back in upcoming episodes maybe season 7?

As for the love triangle, hopefully that doesn't take over the plot line, I doubt it will but I'm hoping Swayer doesn't bail on Juliet or vice versa that Juliet doesn't bail on Swayer...she did have a thing for Jack I recall

So many questions and never any answer's...keeps us watching though!

machramm said...

Awesome episode. I much prefer totally on-island episodes to those set in the “real world”.

I too thought there was something more sinister about Richard wanting the dead guy’s body. My first thought was that they would reanimate it somehow (smokey?)

@Poobear: It had only been 4 days on the island before Locke reset the wheel and made the flashed stop. From then on time moved normally. So, 3 years off-island was 3 years on-island.

I at first thought that the baby that was born had some special meaning like he was someone reincarnated. After further thought, I think his birth was only to point out that whatever happened to create the deadly conception-to-birth phenomenon on the island has not yet happened.

Someone told me that the reason for skipping a week is so the season finale will be aired during sweeps. The almighty dollar rules all.

Charlotte’s body disappearing was interesting. I still have not wrapped my head around that. However, I think it does relate to why John had to be dead for his recent return as someone here has already suggested.

I was really surprised when Juliette yelled Daniel to stop when they were approaching the fence. She is usually so calm and even-tempered. It just came out of the blue.

Great comments everyone. Can’t wait to hear from BM.

machramm said...

argh! (for follow-up emails)

machramm said...

double argh!! (that darn check-box should be checked by default!)

Hackett said...

Nice thiking, Aims. Perhaps the bodies needed to be buried at a deep enough level.

I believe that The Statue is actually Horus, not Anubis. Horus is the Egyptian god of WAR and CHILDBIRTH. Also, he wears a funky little hat, like the statue has.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

To: Anonymous/Annie from lockedinthetrunk....

Your analysis of Horace having a baby that is "not supposed to be" is flawed. Horace and Olivia (the blond) met up with Roger and Emily Linus outside of Portland in the 1960's to witness Ben's birth. As shown in the LaFleur episode, Amy is saved from execution in 1974 and has a baby with Horace in 1977. No inconsistency or contradiction, no course correcting required.

When Faraday rather hopelessly states "whatever happened, happened", he means it quite literally. Sawyer can not make a wrong choice in intervening with Amy's execution -his reaction is a foregone conclusion already written into the time stream. As opposed to Amy's baby being some "not meant to be" aberration, then, it is actually likely to be somebody that we know already exists in the downstream future as proposed by JLes.

BTW - You are falling prey to what is known as "the second time around fallacy." There are not multiple iterations of events in a consistent history paradigm - things only happen once. So no changes or paradoxes result, and Sawyer, Juliet, et al. always have been part of the DHARMA history in the 1970's.

Hackett said...

Plus, Horus / Horace? Mmm? C'mon!

M The Alien said...

Hey everyone, I haven't been around for a while due to work and such, but I had to come here and give my man Bigmouth his proper respect. I love the Colbert Report, I don't necessarily agree with everything he says but I love his segment "I CALLED IT!" Now "I" didn't call anything, but Bigmouth, "YOU CALLED IT!!" In your post "Thoughts on no place like home parts 1 & 2" (5/29/08)You said you thought that Ben killed Locke and that Juliet was going to end up with Sawyer. You're the man, man! When I have some more time i'll come post what I think's going on.

DakranII said...

@ Heather:

don't know if your season 7 was a typo or not, but the show is supposed to end at the end of season 6. We're in 5 now.

I don't have much anything to add. I think the Phoenician/Egytian idea is interesting. There has to be some sort of tie.

The Colossus of Rhodes comes to mind, for sure, and Rhodes is close to where the Egyptians and Phoenicians were. There certainly was a lot of trade among them. Along with all the other clues, there has to be an Ancient Near-East connection.

I am also curious what happened to Rose and Bernard.

I'm a little with JLes on this episode though. I always enjoy an episode of LOST, but this one was a little disappointing. The earlier seasons made us question so much what this place was and what is happening. But Sawyer etc just seem to have settled into an everyday life and don't think about it any more. And the episode conveyed that. Aside for the 3 whole seconds we got of the statue (thanks for the TEASE producers) it didn't seem to have much substance.

Oh and Sawyer totally needs to stick with Juliet. She's so much better for him than Kate. "Are you sure you know what you're doing James?"

By the way, I'm a regular lurker here, but this is my first post. I always love reading everyone's comments.

Heather said...

thanks for correcting that was a typo I meant 6... although I'd love it if they made a season 7!! ha

aims said...

I love how this has taken an Egyptian turn ~ crazy! The statue looks as if it is holding a the same thing as Amy's dead husband's necklace, an Ankh. Anubis was fox-faxed, Horus was eagle/bird faced, I wish we could have gotten a 360 on the statue! I do like the God of War and Childbirth relation, maybe we will find another statue. And there is a relation between Anubis and Horus. Great posts!!

80sPro said...

we didn't get a 360 on the statue because it's likeness is Richard. I would love to know what the casting call said for his character. I mean, he's angular and dark and long-lashed. Totally believable.

Interesting what you say about not being able to change it/reality. I think that this is what Daniel is finally realizing. He's finally getting that maybe there is a great futility to the work he's been doing.

There is still the issue of him seeing the news piece on the discovery of the 815 wreckage and the fact that he was crying. I think it's all adding to illustrate to him that try as he might he can't change it.

The "mad" Daniel will still scare small Charlotte. It's inevitable. His ramblings won't make sense because he won't WANT to scare her...

Rose and Bernard YES Adam and Eve. I think we figured a couple of weeks back that the flashes and nosebleeds would have scared them into hiding in the cave, where they would have laid down together holding hands, and died.

JLes said...

I'm not gonna keep harping on how little I enjoyed this episode, but I just read this quote from Jeff "Doc" Jensen:

"Kudos to Josh Holloway and Elizabeth Mitchell for selling us on the best romance Lost has ever given us."

Is he kidding me? Somebody fire that guy. This is the most forced "romance" I've ever seen on this show. HAS EVERYONE ALREADY FORGOTTEN 'THE CONSTANT'?!?! I know my previous comment may have suggested I'm not into the sappy romantic stuff on this show, but when Penny picked up that phone.... I seriously almost cried.

Let's not get carried away with Sawyer/Juliette people.

Anonymous said...

from Annie to :f/k/a NetProphet

the woman with Horace when they drive up to newborn ben and Roger is Olivia, not Amy.

So if he's Amy, and having a baby, how's he gonna be with Olivia?

80sPro said...

JUST watched Lost untangled at the abc website. If you've never watched it I URGE you to. No, I DEMAND you go there now and laugh your a$$ off.

I like it because ABC themselves confirm little details. In this one, it's that it IS little Charlotte Daniel sees.

Her being my age is believable. In that she looks about my age. To me. Of course there could have been jumps, too. So she COULD be younger...

80sPro said...

jles - I agree

Penny and Des are the quintessential love story on this show. And THEN Sun and Jin. And THEN Rose and Bernard. The 4-drangle has nothing on these.

f/k/a NetProphet said...

In reply to:
Anonymous said...
from Annie to :f/k/a NetProphet

"the woman with Horace when they drive up to newborn ben and Roger is Olivia, not Amy.

So if he's Amy, and having a baby, how's he gonna be with Olivia?"

Because he is with Olivia in the 1960's when Ben is born. He is with Amy several years later - 1974 onward - and has a baby with her in 1977. So Olivia is out ofthe picture by then, dead, divorced, separated or whatever. What's so difficult about that?

ellipsis said...

just a random thought, the way Dan was acting when they found him reminded me a lot of the way he was just crying when he was watching footage of the 815 crash...

also, on the CTV website where Canadians can watch the episodes online, at the bottom it says that "Namaste" is airing March 11. Next week. So... are they not changing it for us or is that a typo do you think???

Anonymous said...

Hacket - I still think it's Anubis. The statue has ears like a dog while Horus is a bird figure.
-J

Anonymous said...

i like the idea that rose and bernard could be adam and eve. i am sure someone somewhere has already said this, but the back up for this could be with the stones that were found on the bodies. per lostpedia, a black stone and white stone were found with the bodies. perhaps representing skin color. Jack ended up taking the stones with him, not sure what happened to them. I doubt that jack still has the stones now, but it is possible that in 1974 or beyond, jack finds the bodies and places the stones on them completing the black and white stone paradox. Really far-fetched, but the posts above about these guys got me thinking.
charliedontsurf

Puzzlebox said...

Horus is all very well and good, but I'm more interested in Richard Alpert: RA.

lockerocks said...

Ok. . . not my fave episode but still good.

First off: I am almost POSITIVE that Ben revealed (when the freighter folks first arrived on island) that Charlotte was born in 1979. I only remember this because it is the same year of birth as myself. So, how can she be 2 or 3 years old in 1977? That makes no sense to me.

Second: I LOVE that Sawyer finally gets to fall into a "leadership" roll. I love that he is back to his old con-man ways. I was not excited about him being with Juliet, however, I found his story of getting over someone very touching and maybe he really is in love with Juliet. At this point in the show, Kate is annoying me more than Juliet so I really hope he doesn't go jumping back in Kate's arms.

Last: I am glad so many of you have mentioned Rose and Bernard as I have been wondering about them all season. I totally agree with the theory that they could be Adam and Eve. Also, were the black and white stones really stones or could they have been pieces from Locke's backgammon game?

You know, that picture of Jacob sort of looks like Horace with the long flowing hair and all. Hmmmmm. . .
My fave line was Sawyer to Juliet when they saw Richard walking up: "Uh-oh". Oh, Sawyer has such a way with words.

I will be boycotting ABC for 2 weeks til the new episode. :) Why are they doing this to us?!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I posted earlier and it was lost, so I'll just add part of what I said.

Yes, Ben said Charlotte was born in 1979, but this could be erroneous info given to Ben (unlikely unless it was a typo on Charlotte's university forms, I'm assuming that is where a lot of his info came from). I've thought since last year that Charlotte and Annie, Ben's pal and maker of the creepy dolls, could be sisters. Faraday could have seen Annie in 1974. But, if there no longer is an Annie, could Charlotte could be the course-correction for Annie (granted we saw no kids running around DI, not even young Ben).

The Swan mural at the yop of the page is what got me to think it is Rose & Bernard in the caves, I move away from that, then drift back. Yes, the roles are reversed, but so much of that mural cannot be known by its painter (the three cabins, the Dharma shark). I'm kinda hoping we see the mural in 1977 (I know the Orientation videos say 1980, but it seems as if everything was set up well before then), to see if anything was there or was painted over. I've even thought that the faces represent Rouseeau and Abaddon as Other.

Big, would Jacob be that young? Like Egyptian King Tut young, ha ha? I posted way up at the top that I thought the scenemore was about Juliet delivering the baby than that the baby must be someone we've seen before. Ethan, maybe. No one else comes to mind, other than the in the dark Jacob, so you might have something there.

Great posts, everyone.

lockerocks said...

Just watched part of Season 4 "Confirmed Dead" and Ben revealed Charlotte Staples Lewis was born in Essex, England on July 2, 1979. Just had to check it for myself (and all of you).

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

One thing I forgot, I'm thinking by 1977, Faraday was either at the Orchid or Hydra (where his notes were found by Ceasar, unless Ben put them there). Also, didn't the original Hanso site back in the day show the DI involved with paranormal stuff? Or was it just extraterrestrial? If the former, could Miles be hooked up with them in 1977?

Aaron said...

Hey Big
Can you clarify your post a bit in the three-dot as far as the other person's theory? If Egyptians discovered the Island (through wormhole?), then who built the security system?
What if some Egyptians got sucked over to the Island and wound up reestablishing their society, one that was similar to but distinct from their Egyptian culture and developed along a different path, with the technologically advanced members of the society being able to evolve further because of the mega-power boost of the Island's unique properties? And they created Smokey etc. ...

Anonymous said...

Zetts here:
Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Stacy, Ben was being sarcastic to Jack on the plane. You could be right about Ben and Juliet, more like he had a schoolboy kind of crush on her.
.....The way Faraday would explain it: Horace and his wife were saved by Sawyer and Juliet because it had already happened. He was mumbling quite a bit, and part of it was knowing he told Charlotte something when she was little, I think he was saying he would NOT try to keep her from leaving the Island. But during that scene, he pretty much was telling the rest that they could do whatever they damn well wanted, because it had happened already.


I completely agree! Whatever happened, happened! Sawyer and Juliet were always a part of the Dharma Initiative, which is also why Ben knew she was their only chance to try and deliver babies on the island....because she had done it before!
Here's some time info:
Ben was born approx. 1962/63 (NOT on the island), and was brought to the island approx. 1972/73 - Horace was still with his first wife, who knows what happened to her?

In 1974, our friends showed up and assimilated themselves into Dharma....1977 rolls around, little Ben is approx. 14, the same age as the actor playing him (same actor that played him in a past episode, good continuity!), so that's why I'm going with these years here...

Teenage Ben will get shot (spoiler rumor that I'm going with), and Juliet and Jin will save his life. Ben will be indebted to them, and develop this lifelong crush on Juliet (which is why he's so gaga over her later on).....

Something makes little Ben go from poor and neglected to psychotic Ben...maybe we'll learn that in Namaste or the following episode. Kinda like seeing Darth Vader go from little kid to evil Death Star building Vader, right?

Anyway, I agree that whatever happened, happened. That's why Ben was so knowledgeable about these folks, because he actually KNEW some of them when he was a kid. That's why knowing Jin was alive was important to him in the last episode - he had to make sure Jin stayed alive, so Jin would save his life, as he knew he must..... haven't worked all that out, but that's what I have.

Namaste!

mary said...

BIG you are fantastic! Love the blog post!

Wayne Allen and Zetts....fantastic comments!

The baby being Jacob is interesting. I always figured Jacob to be an old man, but this would put him around 30ish. (it's to early for me to do simple math)

This "war" should be an awesome episode(s).

80sPro said...

that still leaves Richard with some sort of important and pivotal role. But what? Who would Horus' rival have been?

Not sure about the spoilers...interesting.

And it is totally conceivable that Charlotte WAS born in 1972, but went into the future, so her mom had to make stuff up. Daniel might have sent them back in a hurry - for safety maybe.

Aaron said...

I don't think the baby's going to be Jacob. When Locke walked into the Others camp in 1950-whatever and mentioned Jacob's name to Richard, he seemed to recognize it.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@80sPro, I think Faraday saw "Charlotte" in 1974, that's why I think it was Annie, as the girl Faraday saw was maybe 4, 5? I don't know about the timeline, but I thought Ben arrived on the Island around 1976, so Annie was older, who knows? I'm sure it will be addressed.

And yea, Zetts, do a Spoiler Alert, geez. :) Its never a big thing, but its like reading a book and someone mentioning what happens in the next chapter. Thanks for the mention, and to add to what you postulated, it was RICHARD who encouraged Juliet to come to the Island in 2001. Was Ben on the outs with Richard by then, or did his attitude change after Julit rebuffed him and he got his tumor? So if they get off-Island again, it was a matter of Richard finding Juliet just as he found Locke. I want more backstory on Mittelos. The way it looks, we are getting a lot of stuff answered, the glimpse of the statue was better as a glimpse than having the crew explore it.

I watched the episode again last night and found I was messed up on the Paul/Amy/Horace timeline, so my comments at the top are meaningless. I had mentioned maybe the Truce was about no pregnancies, the populations had to remain the same. They ventured beyond the sonic fence, maybe the Hostiles were keeping the smoke monster a secret. It can't get in. Only other thought is that the truce started sometime around when the DI harnessed the exotic energy, or at least discovered it.

80sPro said...

Hey Wayne!

I went to the ABC site for their fabulous Lost Untangled and that is where ABC themselves confirm that the little girl IS Charlotte.

So, not sure about that except to say she must have time jumped with her mum when they "escaped" the Island....

80sPro said...

I took the image of Jacob and put him in photoshop and took away a bunch of the shadows and noticed these things:

(of course not sure what they mean IN THE LEAST!)

full beard
broken nose
set back eyes
not someone we've seen (not an "aged" Sawyer or Ethan, for example)
man is clearly in his 50s, not younger.

the image degenerates quite a lot, but I was able to get a bit of contrast back in the left side of his face - that's how i can tell the beard is full and includes a moustache and glean a bit more of his age (wrinkles in forehead, eg).

What's it mean? I dunno. My friend said he looks like Dennis Hopper....
hmmmmm!

barack abana said...

hello there, this is jorge from portugal, huge lost fan

i’m new here so first: great posts and comments everyone!

my 2 cents (not much of a theory, just a thought i had while watching this episode): how cool would it be if it had been jin (or sun!) who taught korean to young charlotte?...

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@80sPro, yea, you mentioned the ABC post up top. If anything, I think its more time slowing down on the Island, and Mrs. Lewis (or Charlotte) changing the DOB to reflect her off-Island appearance.
But I still want to think that there is an Annie/Charlotte connection. Would Ben have knowingly killed Annie in The Purge? I'm thinking Annie & Charlotte left the Island at the same time.

Back when Jacob first appeared for all of 11 frames--check DarkUFO for that--most everyone was guessing Locke or...Dennis Hopper. I do recall this because my agent emailed me with his guess.

@barack, that's a great thought, Jorge! Could be why Charlotte wanted to learn so many languages, she got an early start.

Anonymous said...

BANG BM!! I thought the same thing! Jacob is born

SPOON

Miss Scarlett said...

Don't forget Paul's Ankh necklace!

Capcom said...

Didn't TPTB say that the person who played Jacob in the cabin was just an available stagehand or something like that? So that we can't really count on his exact looks in determining who it's supposed to be, either as an actor or character? I think that was said way back then. :-o

Good to see you posting here Alien! :-D

KoreAmBear said...

Anyone notice how Amy seemed to rip the ankh off Paul like she was more interested in the ankh than Paul himself?

Anonymous said...

The thing that bugged me about the episode was the big deal over the killing of the two "others".

Unless I have it wrong, the other killed Paul first meaning they broke the truce. So are the other allowed to kill DI members when ever they want, but if they defend themselves they break the truce? Does not seem very truce like to me. Unless Paul because of his necklace has more to do with the others, maybe he switched sides.

KoreAmBear said...

That's an interesting thought - that Paul went to the "other" side. That might explain why he was on the other side of forcefield. Maybe he was shot b/c he told Amy too much (seems like Amy knew what the ankh was all about, the way she ripped it off Paul's neck).

DakranII said...

I didn't think she ripped the necklace off. I remember it more as something taking something to remember by. I seem to remember it being more gentle. But I haven't rewatched it.

As for the truce I was under the impression that it was a boundary thing. Like in "The Village". Stay out of our territory and we'll leave you alone.

DakranII said...

And @ capcom
You're right about Jacob being a stagehand. I don't think we can take too much stock in his appearance because I heard that too.

80sPro said...

well then will it be the same stagehand when we meet him again? ;-)

Interesting about switching sides - and if the mythology is to be applied, there is good chance Horace did as well. Interesting...

Alex said...

KoreAmBear, the necklace around Paul's neck is the same thing that is Anubis' hand (based on the picture that big posted and the statue). So perhaps she is holding on to it for a reason, does she give this to her son? I too feel something is up with that.

Synchromystic Librarian said...

hmm, richard alpert = RA

i like it

synchromystic librarian

Bigmouth said...

I've finally updated the original post with some three-dot thoughts. Sorry again for the delay!

80sPro said...

Big, in your last three-dot you do that whole Simpson's scene where Lisa breaks lil Wiggum's heart sooooo well that I about coughed tea up through my nose!!!

I saw it the same way as you did when Daniel did the urk-agh-ahhhh when he saw wee Charlotte.

Bigmouth said...

80sPro: LOL! Q: Where did Ben keep Locke's body? A: Look in the tunk...

Anonymous said...

Hi,

Big can you tell us about Rose and Benard...Where are they? I speculated that they could be Adam and Eve. SH

Bigmouth said...

SH: I'm wondering about Rose and Bernard myself! I could easily see the O6 finding their bodies in the cave, where Rose and Bernard went to live after landing in the 1950s. Perhaps Jack slips the stones into their pocket, completing the causal loop.

That said, my best guesses for Adam and Eve are still Penny and Desmond, with Daniel and Charlotte as dark horses.

Synchromystic Librarian said...

i think Rose and Bernard are on the island in as different dimesnion, Locke is in a different dimension also on the small island