One of my few complaints with Lost is that the show doesn't always successfully combine character development with mythological revelation in the same episode. We've reached that part of every season where wrinkles in spacetime take a backseat to Claire's pigeons and the love tesseract of Jack, Sawyer, Juliet, and Kate. I realize not every episode can be the Constant, but just a spoonful of sugar (e.g., another shot of the four-toed foot) helps the medicine go down.
He's Our You definitely fell into the character-driven category. And as such, the episode frustrated me initially. We learned that Sayid was a stone-cold killer even as a child, but fresh insights into his motivations as an adult were lacking. I kept waiting for some revelation (e.g., that Ben had tricked him into killing innocents) that would explain his bloodlust for little Ben. But the flashbacks simply reiterated what we already knew about Sayid working for Ben as an assassin.
Then it hit me. While ostensibly Sayid-centric, the episode didn't aim to explain our ersatz Iraqi's behavior at all. This was really the continuation of Ben's tale. Over the next few episodes, we'll learn all about why he acted the way he did as an adult. And even if it's looking less likely that Ben is the good guy he claims to be, such horrible childhood traumas -- his mother's death, the abuse by his father, getting shot by Sayid -- also make it hard to peg him merely as a villain.
I believe Ben's story is building to the revelation that he's been trying to break the causal loop that deposited our Losties in the past. The catch is that the law of course correction prevents him from making drastic changes like killing Sayid before he travels back in time. So Ben has been following the general pattern of events, making whatever minor alterations he can in hopes their cumulative effect will destabilize history just enough to reboot his so-called life.
Remember what Ms. Hawking told Jack? She warned that he must recreate the circumstances of the original crash or the results would be unpredictable. Desmond said something similar about following his visions as closely as possible or risk changing the picture on the box. I think that's why Ben turned the Donkey Wheel despite knowing that Locke was supposed to be the one who did so. The substitution was Ben's last gambit to change the picture on the box.
Unfortunately, last night's shooting seems to suggest that Ben's efforts to change history have failed. As Daniel Faraday would say, whatever happened, happened. In that regard, fans of Sayid can take heart. At first, I was worried that the lack of new information in his flashbacks meant that his story was nearly done. Now, however, I have to wonder if it's Ben whose end is near. With the effort to change his history a failure, all that may remain is for Ben to accept his fate and be judged by Smokey.
Here, in the spirit of Herb Caen, are some three-dot thoughts on the episode:
I BROUGHT YOU A BOOK. The book little Ben brings Sayid is A Separate Reality by Carlos Castaneda. It's actually the second in a series of three purportedly describing Castaneda's studies with a Yaqui Indian tickle-, uh, sorcerer named don Juan Matus. There are lots of Lost connections, including the notion of drawing energy from the universe, which could refer to vacuum or zero-point energy from the fabric of spacetime itself. Over the course of his studies with don Juan, Castaneda learns to perceive reality in ways most people don't, another very Lost-like concept. Part of this process involves psychedelic drugs like those given by Locke to Boone and by Oldham to Sayid. I also wonder if little Ben's reading suggestion refers to the controversy surrounding the veracity of Castaneda's works, which many believe are sheer fiction. That fits well with the recurring theme of the long con on Lost.
RADZINKSY, I GOT THIS. My friend MB once told me an hilarious cautionary tale he heard from a Hollywood executive about the evils of expository dialogue. The exec described one particularly bad example that ended with one character asking another: "And what do you think we should do, Mr. Water Commissioner?" I thought of that story as the names of new characters like Radzinsky and Oldham kept getting emphasized in dialogue in totally unnatural ways. I understand why Lost does it -- they're worried we'll get confused otherwise. But I sometimes wish the writers would take a page from the Wire and pander a little less to viewers, who already understand that watching Lost will require some attention and reviewing. I think this would also help ease the introduction of new characters, which the show sometimes has trouble doing -- e.g., Locke's awkward introduction of Nikki and Paulo in a scene that seemed solely designed to give an excuse to say their names...
I CAN'T JUST LET YOU GO. Like Sayid, I initially found it odd that Sawyer seemed to prioritize his loyalty to Dharma over his fellow crash survivors. Then Sayid reminded us that they were only together on the Island for 100 days, as compared to the last three years Sawyer spent connecting with the Dharma folks. It's only natural that Sawyer at least feel torn. I have a feeling this difference in perspective will create some interesting conflicts over the rest of the season. None of the Oceanic 6 feels any loyalty to Dharma. Even more importantly, they haven't had time to internalize Faraday's rule of time travel that whatever happened, happened. We saw how quickly Sayid fell prey to the temptation to try to change the future by killing Ben. In previous recaps, I've speculated that someone will try to alter the timeline by sabotaging the Swan station. I wonder if it will be Jack, as foreshadowed by his clash with Sawyer in Namaste...
HE'S OUR YOU. The casting of William Sanderson, probably best known for playing Larry (brother of the two Darryls) on Newhart, was a nice touch. Along with the music blaring from the old-time record player and the teepee, it helped create a super creepy vibe that fit with warnings by Sawyer et al. that Oldham was a maniac. Unfortunately, the payoff where Oldham doses Sayid with LSD, was totally anticlimactic -- far less disturbing than when Sayid tortured Sawyer in Season 1. I was reminded of the letdown when we learned that the aliens in Signs could be defeated by water... I was surprised to learn that LSD is actually used worldwide as an interrogation drug. I liked that aspect of the scene, I just wish they had sold Oldham differently, maybe as a mad scientist who also invented the brainwashing film in Room 23... How long before Radzinsky connects Sayid's plane references to Jin's frantic questions in Namaste? ...So Karen and Gerald DeGroot are still in Michigan?
ANOTHER MACCUTCHEON, PLEASE. Does Sayid drinking MacCutcheon make him a great man like Widmore? ...Ilana's outraaaaaaageous accent sounds fake to me... Who do you supposed hired her, and what was the real motive? I'm increasingly convinced the answers to these questions are the keys to unlocking a much larger mystery. In my recap above, I suggested that big Ben was trying to reboot his life by preventing Sayid from killing him. After rewatching, however, I find myself wondering the reverse. Was big Ben trying to train Sayid to be the kind of cold-blooded killer who wouldn't hesitate to shoot a child? Perhaps that's why the writers made such a point of emphasizing Ben's abuse -- they wanted us to feel the difficulty of Sayid's task. Maybe Ben's not disrupting events, but rather effectuating them, with his manipulations. Ilana claims not to know Ben, but he still strikes me as the one most likely to have hired her. The only other candidate I can see is Widmore -- or perhaps Ms. Hawking.
WHO WILL SAVE LITTLE BEN? A number of you speculated quite plausibly that Jack will be the one who does the deed. Such a scenario would parallel well Jack saving Ben as an adult, sort of like how Sayid killed for Ben as an adult before attempting to kill him as a child. But if I were a betting man, my money would be on Juliet to save little Ben. I think that's why Ben worshiped her as an adult, and why he was so insistent that Juliet stay on the Island. He remembered her saving him and wanted to make sure she would be there to do the job...
As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!
He's Our You definitely fell into the character-driven category. And as such, the episode frustrated me initially. We learned that Sayid was a stone-cold killer even as a child, but fresh insights into his motivations as an adult were lacking. I kept waiting for some revelation (e.g., that Ben had tricked him into killing innocents) that would explain his bloodlust for little Ben. But the flashbacks simply reiterated what we already knew about Sayid working for Ben as an assassin.
Then it hit me. While ostensibly Sayid-centric, the episode didn't aim to explain our ersatz Iraqi's behavior at all. This was really the continuation of Ben's tale. Over the next few episodes, we'll learn all about why he acted the way he did as an adult. And even if it's looking less likely that Ben is the good guy he claims to be, such horrible childhood traumas -- his mother's death, the abuse by his father, getting shot by Sayid -- also make it hard to peg him merely as a villain.
I believe Ben's story is building to the revelation that he's been trying to break the causal loop that deposited our Losties in the past. The catch is that the law of course correction prevents him from making drastic changes like killing Sayid before he travels back in time. So Ben has been following the general pattern of events, making whatever minor alterations he can in hopes their cumulative effect will destabilize history just enough to reboot his so-called life.
Remember what Ms. Hawking told Jack? She warned that he must recreate the circumstances of the original crash or the results would be unpredictable. Desmond said something similar about following his visions as closely as possible or risk changing the picture on the box. I think that's why Ben turned the Donkey Wheel despite knowing that Locke was supposed to be the one who did so. The substitution was Ben's last gambit to change the picture on the box.
Unfortunately, last night's shooting seems to suggest that Ben's efforts to change history have failed. As Daniel Faraday would say, whatever happened, happened. In that regard, fans of Sayid can take heart. At first, I was worried that the lack of new information in his flashbacks meant that his story was nearly done. Now, however, I have to wonder if it's Ben whose end is near. With the effort to change his history a failure, all that may remain is for Ben to accept his fate and be judged by Smokey.
Here, in the spirit of Herb Caen, are some three-dot thoughts on the episode:
I BROUGHT YOU A BOOK. The book little Ben brings Sayid is A Separate Reality by Carlos Castaneda. It's actually the second in a series of three purportedly describing Castaneda's studies with a Yaqui Indian tickle-, uh, sorcerer named don Juan Matus. There are lots of Lost connections, including the notion of drawing energy from the universe, which could refer to vacuum or zero-point energy from the fabric of spacetime itself. Over the course of his studies with don Juan, Castaneda learns to perceive reality in ways most people don't, another very Lost-like concept. Part of this process involves psychedelic drugs like those given by Locke to Boone and by Oldham to Sayid. I also wonder if little Ben's reading suggestion refers to the controversy surrounding the veracity of Castaneda's works, which many believe are sheer fiction. That fits well with the recurring theme of the long con on Lost.
RADZINKSY, I GOT THIS. My friend MB once told me an hilarious cautionary tale he heard from a Hollywood executive about the evils of expository dialogue. The exec described one particularly bad example that ended with one character asking another: "And what do you think we should do, Mr. Water Commissioner?" I thought of that story as the names of new characters like Radzinsky and Oldham kept getting emphasized in dialogue in totally unnatural ways. I understand why Lost does it -- they're worried we'll get confused otherwise. But I sometimes wish the writers would take a page from the Wire and pander a little less to viewers, who already understand that watching Lost will require some attention and reviewing. I think this would also help ease the introduction of new characters, which the show sometimes has trouble doing -- e.g., Locke's awkward introduction of Nikki and Paulo in a scene that seemed solely designed to give an excuse to say their names...
I CAN'T JUST LET YOU GO. Like Sayid, I initially found it odd that Sawyer seemed to prioritize his loyalty to Dharma over his fellow crash survivors. Then Sayid reminded us that they were only together on the Island for 100 days, as compared to the last three years Sawyer spent connecting with the Dharma folks. It's only natural that Sawyer at least feel torn. I have a feeling this difference in perspective will create some interesting conflicts over the rest of the season. None of the Oceanic 6 feels any loyalty to Dharma. Even more importantly, they haven't had time to internalize Faraday's rule of time travel that whatever happened, happened. We saw how quickly Sayid fell prey to the temptation to try to change the future by killing Ben. In previous recaps, I've speculated that someone will try to alter the timeline by sabotaging the Swan station. I wonder if it will be Jack, as foreshadowed by his clash with Sawyer in Namaste...
HE'S OUR YOU. The casting of William Sanderson, probably best known for playing Larry (brother of the two Darryls) on Newhart, was a nice touch. Along with the music blaring from the old-time record player and the teepee, it helped create a super creepy vibe that fit with warnings by Sawyer et al. that Oldham was a maniac. Unfortunately, the payoff where Oldham doses Sayid with LSD, was totally anticlimactic -- far less disturbing than when Sayid tortured Sawyer in Season 1. I was reminded of the letdown when we learned that the aliens in Signs could be defeated by water... I was surprised to learn that LSD is actually used worldwide as an interrogation drug. I liked that aspect of the scene, I just wish they had sold Oldham differently, maybe as a mad scientist who also invented the brainwashing film in Room 23... How long before Radzinsky connects Sayid's plane references to Jin's frantic questions in Namaste? ...So Karen and Gerald DeGroot are still in Michigan?
ANOTHER MACCUTCHEON, PLEASE. Does Sayid drinking MacCutcheon make him a great man like Widmore? ...Ilana's outraaaaaaageous accent sounds fake to me... Who do you supposed hired her, and what was the real motive? I'm increasingly convinced the answers to these questions are the keys to unlocking a much larger mystery. In my recap above, I suggested that big Ben was trying to reboot his life by preventing Sayid from killing him. After rewatching, however, I find myself wondering the reverse. Was big Ben trying to train Sayid to be the kind of cold-blooded killer who wouldn't hesitate to shoot a child? Perhaps that's why the writers made such a point of emphasizing Ben's abuse -- they wanted us to feel the difficulty of Sayid's task. Maybe Ben's not disrupting events, but rather effectuating them, with his manipulations. Ilana claims not to know Ben, but he still strikes me as the one most likely to have hired her. The only other candidate I can see is Widmore -- or perhaps Ms. Hawking.
WHO WILL SAVE LITTLE BEN? A number of you speculated quite plausibly that Jack will be the one who does the deed. Such a scenario would parallel well Jack saving Ben as an adult, sort of like how Sayid killed for Ben as an adult before attempting to kill him as a child. But if I were a betting man, my money would be on Juliet to save little Ben. I think that's why Ben worshiped her as an adult, and why he was so insistent that Juliet stay on the Island. He remembered her saving him and wanted to make sure she would be there to do the job...
As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!
111 comments:
This was a pretty disturbing episode to me.
How the heck are they going to not change things after everything that's happened?! Sawyer's got a good point, why the heck did they come back? :o)
It was disturbing....but I am not sure young Ben is dead. He was chosen by the "Others" as their leader for a reason. And to agree with you again. Why did they come back? SH
i think that ben is definitly not dead... Daniel said that whatever they do it already happened so I think sayid shot but didn't kill ben or maybe the island heals him like it did Locke.
Good point. My other Ben question is why did the gun fire properly if the island needed him? Since the gun didn't jam, will the island cure him? Oy.
I'm having a very difficult time believing what Dan said now! X-D The Universe is going to have to work very hard to course correct this mess.
I would agree. It was definitly a strange episode. What struck me as odd happened while Ben was springing Sayid from the slammer. They were talking about their fathers for a brief second as Sayid told Ben that his father was also a hard man. Ben's remark about his own father was "I hated him." I wonder if his father was in the van that lit up that building? Perhaps he had the last of the abuse from his ol' man and caught him while he was drunk and used him instead of a brick for weight on the gas pedal. I also agree that the island isn't finished with Ben yet. Maybe now we have discovered how Ben acquired the tumour that Jack removed. The island's power of healing saved Ben but couldn't remove the bullet. I wonder what Sayid's plans are now that he is free and back on the island that he obvisously did not want to return to? I predict some sabotage in the future.
Mike
I'm baffled too. I was expecting to Sayid to pull the trigger on Ben but the gun wouldn't go off like it hadn't with Michael. And Ben said he met Alpert 4 years ago which means he came to the island 1973 or before. The Lostpedia group had always put Ben arriving on the island around '77 so it seems like the timeline is adjusting again.
I feel like there are some things we are going to be asked to "forget" by the writers as they try to tie this up. It's already been reported that they are agreeing they made a mistake in the year Ben said Charlotte was born.
I just had thought to add to my comment above. Maybe this is one of the reasons Jack is sent back to this time. He steps up and announces that he's a doctor and saves Ben once more. Which would sort of look a little odd with him being a "workman" and all. After all before getting dumped in '77' he and Ben were in a way allies. At least Sayid did have a little courtesy to take out Jin so he wouldn't look so suspcious when the D.I. arrive to investigate. Jin seems intent on finding Sun with all the miles he is putting on that V.W. van. As a last thought. Where was Jack prior to the fire? Could he have been with Ben plotting out this whole scheme? Maybe helping him carry Roger to the van? Or was he on a visit with Juliet? Who knows?
Mike
Anonymous Mike,
I THINK Ben said "I hate it HERE."
I had to go back and re-watch. Not that it is a huge deal, but I do think it means his father is still alive.
. . . and if Oldham could not get the job done, I am guessing he calls his brother Darrell or his other brother Darrell.
About five minutes before the episode was over, I figured out what Sayid thought his purpose was.
I was still shocked by his actions.
Definitely an impactful ending.
I dpn't think Ben is dead, due to course-correction and all.
I was amazed that they showed a teenager being shot last season, and now a pre-teen has been gunned down. What's left for next season ... Aaron or Ji Yeon?
@SKID Re: "Larry". Funny. I too thought of Newhart. I suspect a lot of viewers (and blog readers) will be too young to catch the reference.
Argh.
machramm: All this has made me think of what OTHER 80's TV icons could play roles in the DHARMA world:
-Phillip Drummond: Widmore Financial Partner
-Cliff Huxtable: Fertility Specialist
-Estelle Getty: Eve.
Just wanted to agree that I also heard little Ben say, "I hate it here".
Becky
Ben's dad died in the Purge, btw.
On the one hand I want to see Ben survive the gunshot wound. On the other I hate it when the writers use the surviving-the-wound-that-should-have-been-fatal ploy. An assassin like Sayid would have put a slug in young Ben's head just to be sure. Of course maybe Sayid, despite his apparent grief at shooting the boy, already knows his purpose is to near-fatally wound Ben, not kill him.
I highly doubt that older Ben will get wiped from existence, would be a bummer of an end for such a great character, but the possibility of Ben's death while still a child is the latest indication that we may eventually find out that Faraday's theories of time travel are flawed.
It could be a Memento-type thing. Faraday is basing his theories on notebooks he wrote to himself, a la the tattoos, but the notebooks are wrong.
I think I lost my post..
so I'll try again.
first thought
Burning bus = burning bush??
second thought
Ben dies and is resurrected by the island.
It gives the Others the reason to accept him into their group.
It gives Ben motive to kill Locke in possible hopes to be resurrected back on the island as well.
Re: Timeline flubs
You'd think a show about time travel would keep track of when things happen in their own mythology.
I read where they have a guy whose only job is to keep the timeline accurate. They said he had the hardest job of anyone.
What a disappointing episode... Some episodes advance the mythology, some advance characters, this did neither. Sayid is still who we thought he was, and Ben is still who we thought he was.
And come on... you know little Ben's not dead. This isn't Back to the Future... they've established that you can't change things. Just like every show, even though he looked deader than dead (and Sayid knows dead), it'll just be a "flesh wound" next week (kind of like Locke in the pit).
If Ben is dead and resurrected by the island, wouldn't he still be a child? I doubt you age when you're a zombie. It's one of the fringe benefits.
I'm kinda with Scott. I didn't totally hate last night's episode, but I've been somewhat let down by the last 2 or 3 weeks "soap-opera-y" feel. "How are we gonna get Jack and Kate and Hurley into the Dharma Initiative!?!?!" or "How are we gonna get Sayid out of Dharma jail!?!"......Really!?! I'm just not really concerned about these "issues" being resolved because I know they will be.
Also Scott, even though we've been spoonfed this idea that you "can't change the past", I'm not so sure that is actually true, and might be the point of the entire show. Changing the past to prevent "The Incident" could be the whole point. But, I agree there is officially ZERO chance creepy young Ben is dead. I'm also slowly starting to think NOBODY on this show is dead.
But...regardless....COME ON LOST!!!! What are there, like 23 episodes left in this entire show!?! I WANT SOME FREAKIN' ANSWERS!!!
I WANT A VINCENT BACKSTORY!
Lantz Dogg (represent)
Personally, I enjoyed the episode. I have always found the Sayid-centric episodes to be the most engaging and complex (just a tier down from Locke).
What I think is missing from the dialogue, and what the viewer needs to keep in mind is “what does the island want?” We all know of the little black box (the man from Tallahassee); and I distinctly remember from S3 that Ben says (paraphrase), “I have a tumor on my back and a spinal surgeon fell out of the sky.” In the past few weeks, the writers did an excellent job setting up LaFleur (who ceases to be Sawyer in my mind). 3 years later, he couldn’t even remember Kate’s face. What did the island do to “course correct?” Dropped his true love out of the sky! So to me, the island wants adult Ben back in this timeline. Ben could not flash in like Kate, Hurley, and Jack, given that he was already there (as a child). We can read many a fan boy’s musings about space/time paradox. So although Sayid thought he was doing the just thing by killing young Ben, he unwittingly opened the space time portal to allow adult Ben to come back to the island. Which also leads me to believe that Sun is Chang’s daughter…hence she did not flash in either. And since Capt. Sully, I mean, Frank Lapedis only was on the island with the Freighter people, he doesn’t belong there.
Other random thoughts:
On the dock, in a flashback, when Ben is trying to convince them to go back. We see the van with the anagram on the side for “reincarnation” and the boat in the water…..way obvious…. Was named ‘illusion’
The tension leading up to how these hippies would torture Sayid to extract information was palpable. But like true hippies…they did not result to violence (although they are heavily armed) and used what appears to be liquid LSD on a sugar cube (or perhaps some other type of pharmaceutical grade hallucenigenic). Sodium pentanoate (truth serum) does not result in the behavior exhibited by Sayid. Speaking of drugs, is someone slipping Jack some happy pills? He is so calm and not the aggressive leader of seasons past. He just chills and eats his waffles. So far from the tortured Jack back on the main land.
Who is in Ann Arbor? “We can make this decision, or Ann Arbor will make it for us.” I did a google search on Ann Arbor Corporations (to see if there are any parallels between the lost universe and real-life. Interesting enough, one of the hits, “The Michigan Aerospace Corporation.” Hmmmmmm. Space time continuum…an aerospace corporation? Coincidence? I think not!
How could Sayid fall for ye olde hot chick is a bounty hunter ploy (again!!!) Did he not learn from Berlin when he got shot and was stitched up by Ben? Ben obviously manipulated Sayid to take off those people on the list. Somehow I doubt the man in the sedan outside Hurley’s hospital was a threat to Hurley, but rather, to Ben.
I know I tend to go off on the religious aspects of Lost, but you can’t tell me Horace didn’t look Christ-like when he took his glasses off in Sayid’s cell.
So where does this all lead us? Well, I believe Dave. You know, Hurley’s invisible friend from the hospital that haunted him on the island seasons ago. I don’t know if I would call the island hell, or even heaven, or is one man’s hell another man’s heaven? But it is a battle for the souls of the losties. Claire is DEAD, just like Christian is DEAD. Ben is DEAD, just like Richard is DEAD. But on the island, that only means so much. I always go back to Widmore’s accusation to Ben in his bedroom from last year, “I know what you are boy.” Not only is ben ghoulish in his thoughts and actions, but he is fact a “ghoul.”
But at this point, I don’t know who isn’t.
Lantz Dog, interesting points, but Pierre Chang's kid is a boy....so, HIGHLY doubt it's Sun. We should probably stop suggesting this theory everyone.
Also, of all the Sayid episodes, this one had far too few awesome Sayid quotes....except, they did make an attempt to re-create his best one ever...
"And if I see you....or you... ever again.... It will be extremely unpleasant for both of us."
I'm starting to wonder if this does change the future. There was debate about last week's episode on where and when exactly Sun and Frank were. Dharmaville looked dilapidated, but not necessarily from Keamy and crew.
Were Sun and Frank in an alternative Dharmaville that was a result of Ben not being alive anymore?
I hope we get back to the "long journey" that Sun has ahead of her because that seems it will be a little revealing of the mysteries of the island, which is what I enjoy the show for. These last few episodes seem little more than character dramas.
Although I'm thinking it's about time we get back to Locke. We haven't seen him in a few episodes now.
Skid, I about choked on my tea when you made the Darrell comment, and your follow-ups are funny too. Perhaps The Economist is Robin Masters!
I also agree young Ben isn't dead - but isn't it interesting that he has Sayid doing all this killing for him later knowing he's going to shoot him in '77? Ben is a wily guy, to be sure! I have no. Idea.
BUT I am VERY concerned about Sayid and his longevity. Personally, I loved the Sayid-centric show because he is one of my faves. But it did sort of start as a "what's the point?" thing. But when it builds up and THAT happens, it was a total WTF moment.
Skipping all the mumbo jumbo, surely Ben would remember being so actively involved with Sayid in his later years, and especially er... getting shot?
I am with JLes and Scott, this episode seemed almost like a filler or sorts, with the exception of evil Harry Potter getting shot, there was not too much to really build on. Except the relationships and some Dharmaville Utopian drama.
Based on the preview it looks like we will be in the same place again next week before we get to see Locke and his new Ajira Airways pals along with Sun/Lapedius.
I agree with the majority that it's quite obvious that Ben is not dead and will be resurrected. I think the journey that Lapedius and Sun will be on is to finalize the turning of the donkey wheel or perhaps something in the temple or cerebus vent. The Losties will be reunited at some point in time because that is just how LOST works and hopefully in doing so they will reveal key details that have been lacking the last 2-3 episodes.
I think Sayid set into motion Ben becoming what he presently is. Reincarnated: by Smokey? = Evil Ben.
First thing I thought upon Ben's shooting: So you have to die and be resurrected to take your proper seat among the others? Didn't Ben in one of the flashbacks say he knew exactly who Sayid was or something to that effect, that shooting adds a little more weight to that line...
Or they really are in an alternate reality like the book said.
Have lots of thoughts after reading all these posts, but just a quick drive by right now to address Lantz Dogg's question as who is in Ann Arbor. It is the DeGroots. Both Karen DeGroot and Gerald DeGroot were doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor when they established the DHARMA Initiative in 1970 (with funding from the Hanso Foundation).
Almost forgot, Pierre Chang also said he was a professor of Theoretical Astrophysics from the University of Michigan.
Sandman here..was just reminiscing about the episode involving the Purge..Ben looked kinda old in that episode (or at least older than they were playing him off to be)..any chance it's "future" Ben that comes back to 1977 and institutes the Purge, seeing that with young Ben being dead (or better yet, "removed" from the picture), there would be no paradox. Just a thought.
Interesting thought, and my head could get behind that.
I do expect that Sayid's cap on Ben was not fatal and it will be Jack, yet again, fixing the situation and saving Ben 2X now.
Hurley was hilarious. How'd he learn to cook? Use the sauce, it makes the ham come out? Hurley seems quite comfortable.
Burning Bus (h) -- interesting observation, and something not to be underestimated with Team Darlton. Like I responded in the Namaste post, it would seem that Jack is the Moses figure. We have tons of references now -- stranger in a strange land, a well, shepherd, Aaron, doctor (rod and snake) and now the Burning (VW) Bus(h), LOL. Perhaps he has to oppose Pharoah (Richard?) and set his people free? The plagues were a kind of purge.
LOL about Sawyer saying "what's on TV"? Do they have DirecTV or Dish Network? And do they have the highest tier package? Since it's 1977, maybe there will be some coverage of the Yankees v. Dodgers. Perhaps news of the Son of Sam killing spree?
Oldham was a cool character. LOST just keeps rolling out the intriguing characters time after time. Kind of reminded me of William H. Macy.
Ben's not dead -- predestination.
Hello all!
Little Ben is defiently not dead. If I remember correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, from S2, when Ben was a captive of our Losties in the Swan's storage room, he showed a fairly good size scar on his chest buttoning up his shirt. And if you remember while boarding the Ajira flight, Ben gives Sayid a pretty nervous look. Ben knew Sayid should be on the plane, but I think he was caught off guard when he realized this was probably Sayid's return to do the dirty deed. Ben remembers Sayid from his childhood and is why he told him, paraphrased, "You are a killer, that's what you do." I too think Jack will be the one to save him once again. I think Sayid's realization isn't necessarily that he was to kill Ben, but to buy time for the other Losties to get the h*** out of Dharmaville before Little Ben gasses them all.
Oh and Roger died in his VW gassed while Ben was sitting next to him with a mask.
Poor Sawyer, grown complacent, and now his con has turned upside down.
They all returned for their own reasons, but their reasons have a common element, concern/love for those left behind. Or the feeling that they were meant for something bigger, and the biggest thing that has happened in their life was the Island.
Alot changes in 3 years, but I have a feeling soon we will be back on track, trying to find the ultimate answer to the ultimate question. What is this place?
My name is Segundo BTW.
I think that Sawyer was kidding about what's on TV, meaning, what's Juliet looking so intently at outside the window. :-) Or maybe I read that wrong.
lol @ sawyer:
"no burning buses for THREE YEARS, and the day after you guys come back..."
I'm still not understanding what's up with Illana or however you spell her name. during the episode i assumed that it was Ben who got him onto the plane, because that's what Ben does right? But she denied working for him (of course, does that really mean anything?) .... but really... wouldn't Ben try to avoid having Sayid come back to save himself from being shot?
Ben does not seem averse to pain. I think he did get shot and needed to get shot. But someone mentioned that Ben had a wound on his chest in an earlier episode. But that hadn't happened yet -- Sayid hadn't actually shot him yet.
KoreAmBear - "But that hadn't happened yet -- Sayid hadn't actually shot him yet."
That wouldn't actually be true. If Ben was shot as kid by Sayid, then he had always been shot by Sayid as a kid. So while we hadn't seen him get shot and saw the scar while he was an adult, we just hadn't seen the shooting yet.
That's a little different from my point. Desmond didn't remember anything about Faraday the first time we saw him with Faraday, until Faraday later knocked on the hatch and confronted the gas masked Desmond from the past. Then and only then, Desmond started to remember Faraday in the past -- when he was hanging out with Penny on the boat in, what, 2007 or so? You follow what I am saying?
Can anyone get a screencap of that scar of Ben's in the Swan closet? I don't remember anything but the wound Danielle put into his shoulder. Tx.
Sayid was the only one of the O6 that, in the end, wasn't going back on his own accord. I am convinced Ben hired brunette Beth the Bounty Hunter to bring him back. "Are you sure we're going to Guam?" Ben knew he had to get all of them back in order for it to work so she is definitely one of "them". I think it's also why she was suspicious of Ceasar when she saw him in the hydra island station.
I also think young Ben getting shot by Sayid is the reason Ben knows he's a killer and why he convinced him to kill all those Widmore people, which I am not totally convinced were actually Widmore people. Why didn't Ben tell Sayid to kill Abaddon instead of doing it himself?
I love Sayid so I enjoyed this episode, especially after the extremely dull one last week. I loved the way Sayid reacted to the laced sugar cube. His laugh was hillarious! He knows these hippies are clueless about what's going to happen.
I have to agree with LantzDogg and KoreAmBear about Jack. I can definitely buy into the Moses reference. I absolutely think the biblical references in the show are a big key. I loved the "happy pills" comment. Lately he reminds me of Lloyd Braun from Seinfeld!
All I have to say is that last scene made me sick to my stomache...I am not OK with watching Sayid shoot little Ben, after seeing what that kid went through with his father. I guess that solves it...I am now in the others camp. I have a hard time keeping up with "Is Ben a good/bad guy?" thing. As for a Sayid-centric episode, I think that may have been the last. It tied up all the loose ends on him, didn't it? He is so gorgeous though! I am upset that we didn't get to see any Sun this episode. I wish they would find a way to integrate more.
I don't think Ben is dead, but I did let out a slight "yes!" when Sayid shot Lil Linus. Faraday needs to be brought back to continue to explain what is up with the "laws" of time on the island, but maybe Richard instead will help us out. There's no way Ben could live and then not remember the Oceanic passengers, he would definitely remember Sayid, at first that's what I thought with the "I know who you are/your a killer" dialogue. But now I'm not so sure, with all this talk of reincarnation and it being a requisite for leading the Others.
I need time to think more about it, but I had a thought that maybe the "hostiles" were really another experiment by Dharma that went wrong and became progressively worse as the two groups became more aware of the island. Probably craziness.
Had to laugh at Jack and Kate with Hurley at the table.
Why the F did they go back? Good question Sawyer.
The island has it's own Timothy Leary!
And Jack's gotta be getting into Oldham's stash, he's way chilled out.
I hope ben isn't 'resurrected' or survives his wound. As soon as i saw him get shot, i was thinking; 'please Sayid, cap him a few more times to be sure' - purely because i was dreading the possibility of the writers tricking us into thinking ben's injury was fatal.
I hope the writers concoct something less 'convenient' than ben being resurrected by the island - even though it might make sense to the story, it just feels like cheating.
i'd like to see something like Lantz Dog's idea; that old ben will take the place of young ben, or that something is changed earlier in the timeline - 1940/50's (?)
i'd be more satisfied with even the idea of say; young ben being told to wear a bullet proof vest before escaping with sayid by someone from the future.
Good Morning Folks –
Wanted to get my thoughts out before reading the other comments. After watching this episode, I have a feeling that I’m gonna need them.
• The shocker? Sayid shoots Ben. While I figured out that he wanted to kill Ben, I didn’t think that he actually would go through shooting a child. Especially, after seeing how Ben was treated by his father. Of course, we know Ben survives, because we see him as an adult. If I’m understanding this whole time travel thing, you can’t change the past. What’s happened has always happened.
• Therefore, I’m wondering if Sayid REALLY needed to kill those people or was Ben being vengeful for shooting being shot by Sayid.
• The interrogation scene. If it was meant to be serious, they failed horribly. I laughed through the whole thing and had to go back to review again. I’m starting to have a hard time believing that these ppl were a serious organization. The whole ‘Horace as a leader’ scenario is already on shaky ground. I get the title, ‘He’s Our You,’ but the person was a joke. LSD. Seriously? They, including Sawyer, made it seem that he was this big bad psycho who lived alone because he couldn’t get alone.
• While Sawyer was trying to maintain his comfortable living, I believed that he really was trying to save Sayid.
• The vote to kill Sayid scene. Suggested by Radzinsky, but spearheaded by Amy. I’m telling you, something ain’t quite *right* with Ms. Amy.
• Juliet and Kate. Bleech. Jules is feeling threatened; unfortunately, I think she should. 3 years isn’t long enough to get over a person, Sawyer’s starting to get the jones again for Kate.
Overall, other than the ending, it was an okay episode. Sayid has always been one of my favorite characters on the show. However, I really wasn’t feeling this episode. It didn’t have the ‘smooth flow’ I’ve come to expect from the show. IMHO, I felt as though we REALLY didn’t learned anything new about him.
hi all, great comments
had a thought: what if the past can be changed? what if ben has been really shot DEAD?
so 2007 ben is a "time/space mistake" because, well, he existed, everyone met him, but he was killed 30 years before... so he's not alive nor dead in the present time, he's somewhere in between
same thing with christian, claire, locke, due to every crazy event that took place since the 815 crash, they died "earlier" than they were supposed to. and if so what could happend to them? just "flash" away? or hang around there in the present time?
and jacob too........ that's why he said "help me" to locke in the cabin as in "help me course correct my life again"...
geeeee... i need help with this thought, i'm confused myself!
What if adult Ben and lil' Ben are really different people?
We see Ben as a kid, then as an adult, but we don't know much in between. Maybe he just assumed his name after the kid died...
I totally agree with you about the abused kid getting shot April, I found it very disturbing as well and not what I expected to come from TPTB of Lost. :-p
I don't like Amy too much either Poohbear, I think it's those shifty eyes of hers.
Three years may not be enough to get over someone for some people, but it should surely be a long enough time to ponder on what a fickle brat deadend loser Kate really is and how it would come to no good to get involved with her again if she did somehow show up in 1977. :o)
BTW, Wayne has keyboard problems this week, so that's why he hasn't chimed in for this episode yet I think. It's not like he doesn't luv us anymore. :o)
I understand you not saying that three year sis not long enough to get over someone but a couple points.
We as the audience, because what we have seen, put more strength in the relationship between sawyer and Kate. But they were only together for 100 plus days and out of those days maybe 50 we can say that sawyer and Kate really had the time to fall in love. Sawyer and Juliette have been together for three years. Not only that this is probably the first time sawyer has felt like a respected member of society.
Now why would he feel more inclined to help Sayid, who tortured him, Jack, who stole his girl, and Hurley, well I bet he would help Hurley, over the people he has lived with and shared 10 times the amount of experiences with.
That's what I was thinking Anon, that S&K only really liked/loved each other (not counting the emotional cat and mouse games) for about half of the time that they were on the island.
Heheh, James definitely likes Hurley the best. :o)
A thought that I had was that there was something that Faraday didn't think of, that is, parallel universes. I think that due to the events that have taken place, there must be something else going on.
So, Ben gets shot by someone who he thinks is a hostile. Then the island (or Jack) heals little Ben, but why the heck would little Ben want to go to the group that shot him?!?!?!?! Yes, he is odd, but we've seen that he isn't stupid! So, if little Ben never joins the hostiles, then he would never perform the purge. This would cause the "others" to eliminate the D.I. people some other way, and possibly never take over and living in Dharmaville. (It may have been Ben's idea to move into it.) This would mean that the place would've been desolate for years. When Sun and Frank run across it, guess what? It still has the crap from the DI.
~Peety
(p.s. there's no way that Sun was that child born. She's not even the same race as Dr. Chang)
From Rambling Pooh Bear:
"Overall, other than the ending, it was an okay episode. Sayid has always been one of my favorite characters on the show. However, I really wasn’t feeling this episode. It didn’t have the ‘smooth flow’ I’ve come to expect from the show. IMHO, I felt as though we REALLY didn’t learned anything new about him."
I almost thought this was a different blog. I was waiting for the, "there were also pitch issues, but you still owned the song, dog. Overall, I was stil feeling you, man." Wrong show.
I agree about Amy. She's bad news. I sensed the vibe from the time her husband was killed. She's got ulterior motives.
I think all of us are over Kate as being a prominent figure. I suppose if we have another Kate-centric show, we'll be back. But I wasn't all that high on the kate-centric eps anyway. I get it: She has relationship issues with men and has nerves of steel when it comes to dealing with them. Also, she always demands to go on any mission Jack wants to tackle on the island.
I cut part of my comment here because its really not part of the forum, but I have left some of it because it goes towards how I viewed that final scene.
That on the table, I thought it WAS disturbing to see Sayid shoot a kid, even if it will be a less-than-fatal wound. His hatred is of the ADULT Ben, the one behind Nadia's death. I think that scene was supposed to shock everyone, and for different reasons. I just don't like the "Sayid shot Ben after what the kid has been through." Its more like "Sayid shot an unarmed kid," and that, to me, is much more horrific. What Ben becomes as an adult is of his own choosing. My growing up in Chicago is the reason for what some of you might think as cynicism. Again, it still was a shock, if you extend the episode to mean "I know why I am here...to kill a kid."
So. If this is a causal loop where adult Ben wanted Sayid to grow to hate him so much that he would one day kill young Ben, it may explain adult Ben on Hydra in 2007. Could another attempt to change the picture on the box, as Big reminded us, be to place himself in 1977 as the adult Ben? I know that's worded badly, but is this another attempt to change things, maybe because his turning the wheel wasn't supposed to make the needle jump off the record? Or...maybe he hoped that it would, thus retro-explaining something in his head for at least those firs hundred days (how did the other end up in 1977 in the first place?).
On the one hand, its hard for me to imagine seeing Ben Linus for four seasons and think, hmnn, he's known about all of these guys all along. But then, there's his (well, Michael Emerson's)deadpan delivery, his emotionless stare. Re: his knowing all along, he tells Michael "I didn't tell you to kill [Ana-Lucia and Libby.]" If this has been a loop, he might have known he'd escape the armory w/o any bloodshed. When he mentions on the Ajira flight that he doesn't care about the other passengers, maybe its because he's seen the plane land safely on Hydra numerous times. And when he tells Locke near the Orchid that he always has a plan, well, he does because he did and he knows what didn't work. Or didn't work WELL ENOUGH.
Has it come down to this level of desperation for Ben? The only way to get things the way he wants them is for Sayid to kill him as a child? (I hold out that he is wounded badly, but perhaps adult Ben really expected young Ben to die from that bullet).
I agree with what Big posted, this was rehashed Sayid (until the end), but it really should be considered an episode showing how Sayid and Ben are so tightly intertwined.
Well, it takes me so long to type one-fingered that there's another post up.
@KoreAmBear, I think the first time we saw shifty Amy was when she pulled the ear plugs out near the sonic fence.
@Christie, I had wanted to write something else that has nothing to do with the episode in question, what you brought up about the timeline. The situation with the Purge occurring in 1992 was because Ben's watch in that episode was not made before that year. The thing with Charlotte's DOB was the writer's problem, but the deal with the general timeline started with Ben's brand of watch and the prop department. (Initially, I was thinking The Incident of the mid-80s was The Purge). So its like LOST itself, the chicken or the egg. The writers had to adapt to the viewers looking for clues in every scene, but it was the writers who created the reason for us needing to look at every little detail. I find some humor in that.
Lookking fwd to reading more comments from everyone.
Hah....KoreAmBear.... great call on the idol reference
BUT....PLEASE....speak for yourself when it comes to my beloved Kate Austen. I can't stand Juliette....and I especially can't stand this "sexual tension" we're all supposed to buy that came out of absolutely nowhere and is totally forced and hopefully is gone in 2 episodes.
I figured out why I hate Juliette too, and why I subconsciously love Kate, and totally buy why Jack/Sawyer love her.... She's spent far more time on the show with her clothes off. (the no-pants dive for the gun suitcase, off-island Kate in the button down shirt/towel!?....COME ON!)
Now Juliette and Kate are both spending all their time in Dharma/Ghostbusters jumpsuits!?!?! WOW.... I don't care.
Sorry to sound sexist with this post, but I'm sure this goes for the gals too. The only reason you girls care about Sawyer's love life is b/c he spend half this season with his shirt off....i get that.
I'd like to rank LOST romances in the following order of believability/sincerity:
1) Desmond/Penny
2) Rosenard
3) Sun/Jin
4) Jack/Kate
5) Sawyer/Kate
6) Alex/Karl
7) Sayid/Nadia
8) Sayid/Shannon
9) Locke/Helen
10)Jack/ Sarah
....23) Ben/Annie
24) Amy/ Horace
25) Tom/ Arturo
...42)Charlie Pace / Driveshaft groupies
43) Hurley/Libby
...106) Claire/Jacob
107) Charlotte/ Faraday
108) Sawyer/ Juliette
...just my opinion.
The only problem that I have with big Ben planning Sayid to shoot little Ben is, how could Ben know that they were going to stop time-skipping in 1977 (and that the plane would hit the island atmosphere at that point), or at any time before he left with the Hostiles, or before the Purge? Unless, he's been there and done that already as theorized, so he knew. In that case, I care not to attempt to assume what TPTB are going to come up with here, it hurts too much. :-p
I've gotta go with Koreambear on the Kate thing myself. ;-)
And I care about James because TPTB wrote him as a sorry soul who was messed up and finally got his life together and found some peace in life, as far as we know at this point, and that goes with the original redemption theme of the show. Shirt or no shirt, heheh.
LOL JLes on the relationship rankings index. Tom-Arturo, that has to be a little higher. Esp. when we saw the disgusted and confused look of Michael in the NY hotel. Plus, Tom was very loyal to Arturo -- remember Kate didn't want Tom to see her change after Tom told her to put those Ben clothes on. But Tom said "you're not my type anyway." LOL.
Also, besides Charlie and the groupies, how about that failed romance between Charlie and that London chick whom he conned? That's an interesting parallel with Sawyer, btw.
With Amy, it was also the way she ripped off the ankh from her husband's neck. As if that ankh provided some kind of power.
After reading the comments on here about her ripping the necklace off, I was curious as I didn't remember that. I watched the episode when it replayed the next week and paid attention at that point. I don't think she ripped it off, I think it was pretty gentle looking.
That being said, I'm not a fan of Amy. My dislike, or distrust, mostly stems from her expression after the sonic fence situation.
KoreAmBear....
VERY good point(s). I'll take that into strong consideration for The LOST Relationship Ranker vol. 2. He was VERY loyal to Arturo....not even just in a different area code, but possibly in a different point in the Time/Space continuum...
...THAT is love people.
I thought this episode was pretty good. I love how Sayid is a stone-cold killer but he falls for a** as quick as the next man! Girls might be his downfall. He' has had some bad luck (Shannon, Nadia, Bounty hunters)
Jack is obviously going to fix Lil Ben. I think the gunshot is the reason he needs the second surgery in the future and why he wants Jack and only Jack to do it--because thats who fixed him before and he trusts him.
I mentioned last week that I think Sun is Pierres kid. I know that one is Korean and one is Chinese (I think) but were dealing with Charles Widmore and Ben and Richard here! You think they couldnt give her to Sun's dad and tell him to raise her as Korean or whatever. Also, we pretty much know that Pierres kid is a boy but we've never seen him have we? I dont put anything past the island.
I want to know where the hell Claire is. You cant just show her with Christian twice and not follow up on a more consistent basis. And where is Aaron and Ji-Yeon. Somebody has to ask Kate or Sun the obvious question--Where the hell are your kids? You notice Jack is the only one who asked? I think thats weird.
I am counting the minutes until next wednesday!
Gina Marie
Pierre Chang -- I know some Changs who are Korean. Mostly a Chinese name but can be Korean. I don't know any Chinese kids with the last name Straume though, LOL.
"I suppose if we have another Kate-centric show, we'll be back."
I believe next week's episode is Kate-centric :P
Good thoughts Wayne, BTW!
And don't get me wrong, Sayid shooting a child was indeed bad enough, but to me it was also compounded by the fact that Sayid actually saw what made Ben what he turned into (i.e., getting face-planted into the bars by a deadbeat dad) and Sayid didn't put it all together to figure out why the boy turned sour, and he shot him anyway instead of showing some compasion that might have turned little skinny Ben around. At least that's how I would have written it, heheh.
Nooooooooooo, Ellipsis!
If Ben really is dead then Big Ben could become very powerful.
See Chuck Palahniuk's book "Rant."
Spoiler Warning!
In Rant, the main character Buster Casey, after a long narrative goes back in time to kill his mother before he is born. By accomplishing this Buster would separate himself from space and time making himself whatis referred to as a "Historian." Historians have separated themselves and as a result can travel and manipulate events throughout time. Although this prevents him from being born, his grown self can't just fade out, so it continues to exist separate from the rest of time.
I may be off in some details, it's been a little while since I've read it but I highly reccomend it, and if Bens story is like Buster's then our Losties are in way over their heads.
If Ben has the power to do that, manipulate events as a historian, basically he plays god. That would be scary.
Would anyone have any remorse if they went back in history and had a chance to rub out Adolf Hitler as a toddler or grade school kid? To prevent genocide, it's something one must do if they had an opportunity. I'm also thinking of Anakin Skywalker, who was very likeable as a kid.
@Capcom, thinking on it, we have an episode that shows how both Sayid and Ben had daddy issues (along with just about every other character, maybe even Tom AND Arturo). But they became what they were as adults, at the time of the Purge, Sayid was torturing people for the Iraqi army. Again, I'll not give a thought about "poor Ben," but will say Sayid shooting a child was a shock. Yet, as adults, they BOTH had lives shaped by their fathers.
@ellipses, makes sense about another Kate episode (sadly and sorry JLes). This week we saw Sayid the night before the Ajira flight, Ilana, etc., this coming week, we'll see where Aaron (and maybe Ji Yeon) went, and how Kate ended up changing her mind (for about the 300th time, again, sorry, JLes).
@KoreAmBear. Hitler tried to sell paintings on the streets of Vienna as a teenager. What if someone went back in time, not to kill him, but to encourage his career as an artist? Just sayin.
@KevJones, haven't read that book by Chuck, by reading it would one have the notion that Ben could make multiple Bens, by repeatedly going into the past?
Re: the Chang's baby. It's Tom. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Everyone enjoy the weekend.
I need an Tom and Arturo centric ep. I mean, how did they hook up? Oh, a Frogurt centric ep. would be nice too. You can't tell me he was always this snarky. He had daddy issues too. Maybe Frogurt was Sayid's brother that didn't kill the chicken. But he had such self-esteem issues, that sarcasm was his way to compensate. So the island had to course correct and just off him with a flaming arrow. That's a great way to go, btw. I hope everyone is having a great start to their weekend!
Koreambear: You would kill Anakin?! Hitler definitey but Anakin just got shafted by Palpatine, he isn't really the most evil one. I would kill Palpatine as a child, and Jar Jar Binks.
Wayne: good question. I'm not a hundred percent on that. The major downside to Rant is that because of the way it's written (oral biography) we rely on the characters perspectives, unfortunately since most of them are not intelligent, the details regarding time travel are few and far between. I'm going to skim through it again to find all relevant details and post them because I wouldn't put it past the writers to do something similar with Ben.
KoreAmBear: Here's my idea for a Tom backstory, he chooses Arturo because he can't court Richard. And they have a puppy. In all seriousness, I was hoping we'd see more off-Island Others scenes.
KevJones: that'd be great if you could do that. It seems too complex that there'd be a time-traveling Ben, but I'm a comics geek who recalls Marvel doing something with Kang the Conquerer in the 70s, he was from the future, they showed how he had then lived in ancient Egypt for years before going even farther into the future. So there could technically be three or more Kangs,all from different moments of his existence. I think the time travel thing is hard enough for many to follow, but it would be something if the ancient civilization on the Island is really from the future, and if the Ben we know has an even older adult Ben self. If LOST were a novel, this idea would be great. A Ben from, say, 2010 trying to stop Ben from 2007 from letting Ben in 1977 die. As Capcom would say, my head is starting to hurt. Ah, just sinuses.
Very funny and pertinent Star Wars comments y'all! X-D
Exactly Wayne (about Hitler's paintings) so why didn't Sayid just take the poor kid under his wing and teach him a thing or two to help him out?! Ah well, maybe Sayid was still trippng and couldn't exactly think philosophically??
I'm going to go back and re-read the stories from the comic book that RA showed John (Mystery Tales), to see if there's any hints to glean from that. TPTB just threw that out at us back then before the ARG-That-Wasn't, maybe there's something that will pop out now that we have more info. If not, I'll never mention it again. :o)
@Capcom, never know, there might be something in the comic, but I think the whole point of that scene became clear once we realized the wording "What ALREADY belongs to you?" meant something to Alpert. I think it was a cool cover that happened on a 1955 comic with some intriguing story titles. Ah, if only there was a way to add an H word to make the acronym ARGH, ha ha.
Re: your thing about Ben, I saw some anger in Sayid when he realized LaFleur knew about him for the past three years but didn't "take him under his wing." Doesn't explain his actions, maybe someone in the DI would believe him that he conspired with Richard in 1974. Put the truth serum to young Ben.
Ohhh, I have to go back and check that out about Sayid and Ben.
About the comic, it was revealed in the source code of one of the clue links of the ARGH (the "March Has 32 Days" thing), and some guys bought the comic on Ebay together supposedly and scanned the stories for everyone to see, including the "32 Days" story mentined in the code. There are time traveling tales, and a couple in particular seemed close to what might be going on in Lost. Here's the link check it out, if nothing else you'll enjoy the old stories just cuz you like old comics:
http://www.mysterytales40.com
:-)
Wayne, ive briefly looked into the theories in Rant. The time travel theories presented within it are based around Liminality, much like Lost, where the characters exist between reality and the island, In Rant "Historians" exist between accepted fabrics of time. To gain status as a historian, a person must die in a certain frame of mind, thus separating themselves from the accepted facbric of time. In Buster Casey's case, he found that frame of mind during a high speed car accident. Seprating themselves from the fabric of time allows the historian to travel throughout time and affect change as he/she sees fit. The first step of becoming a historian is to die, then to kill a parent, to ensure that you aren't born, because what isnt born, can't die. Another option HIstorians have is to commit incest and impregnate their mother, making the future them, more powerful. This is the part that makes me think their can't be multiple time traveling Bens. Because if this was the path the historian took, their actions have an effect on them in their separated state. So to answer your original question, no i don't think that reading the book will give anyone the impression that there could be multiple Ben's. I think that woud be an interesting element to add to the show, but the theories presented in the book do not lead me to believe that there wil be multiple Ben's.
will post more later.
Interesting stuff, KevJones. What isn't born can't die. Pretty wild. I think that multiple Bens would not be a direction anyone involved with LOST, including the viewers, would want it to go. More thinking on the variations of time travel But I'm still curious about the 2007 Ben. Will he blip back to 1977 if his younger self is indeed dead, and not wounded? I mean, we'll see soon enough, but its nice thinking through the possibilities. As it stands, though, right now the DI will think that a Hostile killed/wounded young Ben, and then we have to think of the possibilities arising from that.
@Capcom, I read about that blog last summer, those two guys from Spain scanning the book. For anyone using Twitter, they might still be active. Each post will give you links to the pages. And who can pass up the crazy goodness of Basil Wolverton art? The guy made Hopper look like Dali.
80 comments before I even finish my recap? You all everybody are amazing!
Made Hopper look like Dali, heheh. X-D
@Bigmouth--we came sooo close to 100 on the last one!
@Capcom (and everyone else)--I can bet you that after Sayid started giggling from the cosmic cube that Horace and Oldham, et. al., were looking like Basil Wolverton characters.
@whoever cares, ha ha--here's a crazy thought. Faraday has been hanging out with Arturo's FATHER who is also working at the Orchid. His then having a son who has some exotic energy floating around in him might make him more *ahem* attractive to Tom in 2007.
Good ones! X-D
Capcom: I'm not sure the gun has to malfunction for fate to be at work. Remember Ben shooting Locke in his missing kidney? Maybe Sayid's gunshot to the chest won't work because little Ben already has no heart. BTW, I went back to look if there's a shot of Ben's chest either in the Swan or on Hydra Island but couldn't find anything.
SKID and machramm: Rumor has it that the JJ in Jimmy JJ Walker stands for "double Jacob." Do you really think it's a coincidence that his mother was named "Florida" in light of the man from Talahassee?
Aaron: That's a really interesting analogy between Dan's journal and Lenny's tattoos in Memento!
neaux: If Ben had been shot outside the sonic fence, I could see him being resurrected by Smokey. Also, Scott makes a good point about zombies never aging. On a related note, is it possible that Jacob will save Ben's life?
Lantz Dogg: Like NetProphet, I think the Ann Arbor reference is to the DeGroots, who teach at the University of Michigan.
KoreAmBear: I'd be careful about drawing conclusions from Desmond's recovered memory. Remember, he's the "miraculous" exception to Faraday's rules of time travel. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a scar on big Ben's chest at some point this season, but I think the upshot will be that Ben was always shot. It won't be a new scar like Desmond's new memory.
Poohbear: I think the people Ben killed were responsible for Alex's death. He just told Sayid what he needed to hear to do the dirty deeds...
anonymous: I completely agree -- it's perfectly plausible that Sawyer's bonds to Dharma should trump those to the survivors of Oceanic 815.
peety: I'm not sure we need parallel universes to explain any changes to the Barracks. In fact, such changes tend to imply there's only one timeline but subject to revision.
Wayne: I really think that's the key question. Was Ben trying to ensure Sayid would kill him to reboot his life? Or was Ben simply ensuring Sayid would shoot him to effectuate the life he already knows? Also, to clarify, I've actually seen a script that dates the Purge as 1992, but it sounds like that will change either by retconning or by actual changes to the past.
JLes: I think we need some shots of Kate, Juliet, and Sun without their shirts to balance all that shirtless Sawyer LOL!
Gina Marie: Rumor has it that Claire won't be seen again this season but may be back for S6. I do agree -- it's a little odd no one seems concerned about Aaron and Ji-Yeon.
KevJone: Wow...interesting Pahlaniuk connection! I definitely think Fight Club influenced Hurley's "dissociative-schizophrenia" -- a made-up condition that Palahniuk uses to explain Tyler Durden. Your description of a Historian actually makes me think of Jacob. Did Ben somehow prevent him from being born?
Wayne, any chance for an ABC offshoot from LOST called, "Arturo and Tom: Chronicles From the Mainland"? It would be a comedy and they adopt a boy played by Gary Coleman. Michael Richards would make his triumphant comedy series comeback as Tom's brother Dom. Things go south when Gary Coleman murders Dom. On the same day, he wins the lotto using 4 8 15 16 23 42.
Big, I hadn't even thought to connect Jacob and the historians, but that would be a great explanation of Jacob.
In an unrelated note, does anyone recall how the DI initially got to the island? Have they explained that yet? Seems like everyone else who has made there way to the island did so by crashing somehow, from The Black Rock to the French Team to Henry Gale, to our heroes on 815 and 316. I don't recall any specific instances where the history of Dharma is explained, but my memory isn't perfect.
Even more unrelated, saw an ad for Caprica, the BAttlestar Galactica "prequel," I've never seen BSG but it has peaked my interest lately, any thoughts/reccomendations?
Re: historian theory, I again go back to the Moses story. Pharoah wanted to kill all the Hebrew babies when Moses was born. At some point will Ben, Richard or Jacob as Pharoah make an edict that no babies on the island can be born? Yet Aaron (Moses' brother) was born -- like baby Moses who escaped the edict?
KoreAmBear, that's an interesting point, maybe we will see Aaron return to the island as a grown man and turn the hierarchy of the island on it's head.
Speaking of Aaron, where the hell is Claire?
....and Vincent?!
KJ
It's funny in that I seem to enjoy Vincent's reappearances more than, say, Rose and Bernard because I just hate when characters are used simply as plot devices. All good replies there, Big. My 16 year old niece is reading FIGHT CLUB, its required reading by a teacher that seems to have escaped notice so far, ha ha.
You took my thought a step further, in suggesting that adult Ben wanted Sayid to shoot him as a kid so he COULD become the adult Ben we know. That is a real paradox more than the others, because in this example, Ben would have had to have grown up a different way, then realized he could be better off if Sayid shot him as a kid. Am I right here? That this is, pardon the pun, outside the box thinking? That at one point, even though there might have been a 1977 Sayid AND Ben together, there wasn't ALWAYS a 1977 Sayid that SHOT Ben?
Your remark to Poohbear made me think of some of the small gems from the Nikki/Paulo episode. Paoulo is in the Pearl's john and Juliet says something to Ben about Jack performing the surgery and Ben's reply that he would do what he has always done, exploit people by telling people what they want to hear.
@KoreAmBear the spinoff sounds good, but shouldn't each episode involve ridding someone from reality? Gary Coleman can be Tom and Arturo's wizard-like Ben, and after the pilot, where Kramer is zapped away, I want Coleman to go back in time far enough to discourage Bob Saget from ever acting, then FULL HOUSE is cancelled after three episodes because John Stamos is given the lead role. Think of the ripple effect of a world with no synidicated reruns of FULL HOUSE! (Three nieces, so I can recite the lyrics while working heavy machinery). Instead of the flashbacks of LOST, we get Coleman in the past, then back to Tom & Arturo keeping society safe as they watch from neighborhood rooftops, champagne glasses in hand.
I'm sure we are going towards an Aaron-thing, maybe the cliffhanger this season will be getting Aaron to the Island or keeping him away.
I know it's unlikely, but maybe Aaron and Ji-Yeon are staying with Desmond and Penny...and Desmond and Penny will decide to try and bring them to the island.
-Bix
Wayne, why don't we submit the screenplay to Darlton? Absolutely fabulous. But the problem is no Full House, no America's Funniest Home Videos. Wait, did I say it was a problem?
KoreAmBear, but then there's still Tom Bergeron to be dealt with, which then deletes DANCING WITH THE STARS and then no one will ever see Steve Jobs attempt to dance. But that's beside the point. (And as you said, wait, there's a problem there?!)
I'll write the treatment, you start casting (this way, we all get to know Bigmouth's real identity, right?)
Too bad Gary Coleman can't be on LOST as part of the DI. Can't you hear it, "What you talkin' about, LaFleur?"
That's comedy, Wayne. I think the whole world needed not to see Jeremy Ross dance. So perhaps Gary Coleman needs to go kill whoever started ABC so no Dancing With the Stars ever happened. But whatever happened, happened. So I guess Warren Sapp is safe.
Note about the MacCutcheon. Each time one drinks an MCC, he/she does something really decisive and nasty. Widmore had to tell Desmond he was a loser and could not ever measure up to Penny. Anthony Cooper drank an MCC and proceeded to throw his supposed son off an 8 story building. Ilana drank it along with Sayid and she did the zip up boots one-two kick on Sayid. Man, I love me some MCC!
I think Dennis Rodman was drinking MacCutcheon last Sunday on the Celebrity Apprentice! Seriously, though, two quick thoughts about Jacob inspired by our Palahniuk discussions:
1) Building on the Rant idea that Jacob is an Historian, is it possible he was Ben's brother who was never born because of Emily Linus's death during childbirth?
2) Regarding Fight Club, could Jacob be a manifestation of little Ben's mind? We know dissociative identity order can be caused by childhood trauma. We've just seen little Ben get abused by his father and shot by Sayid whose life he tried to save. What if these traumas trigger the creation of an alter who goes by the name of Jacob whom the Island brings to life?
What if Jacob saves little Ben?
LOL Everyone! Especially about Rodman's behavior this week. That guy needs a wake-up call on many levels.
KevJones, the details of why and how the DI got to the island can be seen here:
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sri_Lanka_video
It was all about Hanso's corp setting up a special group to do secretive scientific research on a deserted (they thought) island to save the world via intensive scientific research.
Big, Jacob could be Ben's "Monster from the Id", heheh. At TLC, Fenris and I have always wondered if that's what Smokey was. I might not think that so much now after what we've seen lately, Smokey doesn't seem to need people to go to sleep to get his work done. :o)
Sorry about the deletes, I made dumb typos.
P.S. Speaking of the DI, I'm wondering if TPTB will show us at what point Dharmaville turned into Jonestown Guyana, that is, when did they turn from "saving the world with peace love and science", to "the end justifies the means" and violence. TPTB may just let us make our own assumptions about that (like many other details), leaving the informatation as "something changed and now it's like this".
I just have to say that I finally started having these comments sent to my Gmail and you all have been cracking me up with your new show ideas, etc. I also want to shout out that I think this is the 100th comment and I know that will make Wayne happy :)
Big, #2, if Jacob is a manifestation of Bens mind then how does Christian come to "speak on his behalf"? If Jacob saves lil Ben that could possibly be the coolest character introduction ever. Regarding #1, in the book the person has to seek out the meansto be a historian, meaning they have to be alive first, I don't think an unborn Jacob would have that kind of mental power, that's like an infant Osterman becoming Dr. Manhattan.
Capcom, muchos gracias for the help, I probably should have checked there in the first place, but this base become my first reference for anything Lost related.
Hey, Big & KevJones. I'm ghostwriting a novel for someone at the moment, and one of the things I had to read up on was MSMI or Mirrored Self-Misidentification. Perhaps its a little bit of Tyler Durden AND a little bit of Jacob/Christian. Ben sees himself as an extension of Jacob, even to the point past where he fell out of grace with Jacob. He may not intentionally be trying to act through Jacob, but he thinks that Jacob still wants him to be his mouthpiece. That first time Ben and Locke were in Jacob's cabin, Ben really seemed a bit more "in denial" than at other times when talking about Jacob. Another (though unlikely)n angle on why Ben turned the wheel, to regain Jacob's good graces.
Christie, the 100 posts makes me more nostalgic, I came across Big's blog during the late summer of 2007. LOST had so much to reveal then, and really, I dig you guys who post here. Back in 2007, it was pretty silent, and I respect Big for continuing the in-depth posting when there were so few comments.
@KoreAmBear I can see Tom and Arturo after waking up next to each other sober after their first date. "Arturo, whatever happened, happened. We just can't remember it."
Wayne, ***SPOILER ALERT*** (just kidding):
The start to a season 6 ep. is a picture of Tom's eye, and then zooming out we see Tom in a Manhattan studio bed with Arturo making some eggs, toast and coffee. Then we do a flashback to Tom's life, going to Pasadena Art Center and learning about designing cars (and tricking up VW buses). Tom grew up in San Marino and he was really thin then. But someone introduced him to The Hat, a pastrami stand in Pasadena, and that is how he became what he is today.
Biggy -- re: Ben, I can't help but continue the Biblical theme. Benjamin in the Bible was kind of a miracle baby and the youngest of Jacob's kids. He was I believe the only other child of the union between Jacob and Rachel besides Joseph (yes, of the Technicolor Dreamcoat fame). Rachel was barren for most of her life and so Jacob had many other children (tribes of Israel) with his other wife Leah. Jacob met Rachel at a well (I think that might be what is referred to as Jacob's well) and tried to marry her but Rachel's father Laban tricked Jacob into marrying Leah first and then Jacob had to work 7 years of hard labor to earn his right to mary Rachel.
No problem, Kev, I always ask questions too without looking it up first, mostly to get our blog-budds take on it. And I wasn't sure if you knew it could be found there. They are always adding new information in the archives at Lostpedia so there is usually more to learn when you go back to look at something you've looked up before anyway.
Thanks for the reminder that Jacob had many wives Koreambear, don't know why I forgot that. And right, Benjamin was very special in the family and Jacob's "other favorite".
@KoreAmBear, of course, poor Tom could get a higher-paying job in Chicago, think he has left The Hat behind, and then realize we have deep-dish pizza, Vienna hot dogs on steamed, poppy seed buns, and Maxwell Street polish sausage. Arturo will tell him he still loves all his added pounds. You still need to get Bigmouth into doing a cameo as a Mr. LeShade type. Maybe he can be a pasta chef in both cities! (When I think of M.C.Gainey, though, I always recall him as the pilot in CON AIR).
Figured I'd add another pose before it winds down. Of course, this isn't two-way conversation; anyone can add their own thoughts on the Tom/Arturo idea. (I wonder if the actor who played Arturo's ear is ringing from this post?)
Remember: whatever happened, happened.
The sneak peaks look tantalizing for tonight. :-)
Capcom: The Id Monster from Forbidden Planet strikes me as a great analogy! Another would be the Visitors in Solaris. Ultimately, which analogy works better will depend on whether the Island turns out to be a dangerous technological artifact of a long-dead civilization like the Krell, or whether it's actually trying to communicate with our Losties using these manifestations as its avatars ala Solaris.
KevJones: Christian may himself be a manifestation of Jack's mind and the Island. If so, Christian may serve the same Island agenda that Jacob does. Of course, I'm still not entirely sure that Christian really speaks for Jacob, though his disdain for Ben suggests he might. Regarding the Historian speculation, I think I mean something more like the "spirits able to rage through time and space" that I mentioned in my Jughead recap.
Wayne: Interesting stuff! To clarify, however, when I say manifestation, I mean like in Solaris. Even if Jacob began as a creation of little Ben's traumatized mind, he's no longer simply a hallucination.
KoreAmBear: I think the biblical parallels are right on target. Have you read the Star of Jacob?
Hey, Big. I loved the book SOLARIS as well as the film. I brought up MSMI because it might show how desperate Ben is when he takes Locke to Jacob's cabin, the Ben is actually trying to BE Jacob because Jacob is only talking to Locke in that scene. I think Horace plays a huge role right now. If Locke's dream is right, Horace might have actually built the cabin by the time of the Purge (if it remains in 1992), and the the blueprints were there for Locke to find, whether or not Horace kept the blueprints with him for years. Maybe he just happened to have them just that day. Jacob finds a way to manifest in a very real way once that cabin is built. Odds are its outside or near the sonar fence, maybe as Smokey, he can burrow through the ground. The DI changed after Jacob showed up however he did, going from the magic cubes to Room 23 and Jacob Loves You. (One might argue that Room 23 was the Others' doing, but the Jacob credo appeared on one of the Orientation tapes. I would lean to the Island being more like Solaris, only being selective in who it seduces. Horace wanted the getaway cabin, Ben wanted to get away from the DI. I think that Richard has known about at least the concept of Jacob for many years. Did Jacob do his own brainwashing on the DI? Or did the DI eventually take things to the next level?
See you all everybody on the Island.
Biggy - thanks for the reference to your earlier post, "Star of Jacob." Very interesting stuff.
On an unrelated note, I was just emailing one of the blog lurkers about the comments and I realized I posted number...108. We all know what LeFleur would say...
The 4th, 8th, 15th, 16th, 23rd, and 42nd posts should be highlighted after each of Biggy's blog posts.
Biggy, you gonna start Twittering? I can see the entries:
"Thinking about what to say about Whatever Happened, Happened."
"Computer crashed, entry for blog deleted forever."
"Wow, 108 responses already, I had better get the Herb Caen three dots in now."
Can I please just say Twitter is useless?
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