Wednesday, May 13, 2009

Thoughts on the Incident...

I love so many things about Lost. But what I appreciate most is the way it always stays fresh by shifting ground just when I've found solid footing. Think Ben talks with Jacob? Wrong! Believe Bram and Ilana are the next generation of DHARMA? No soup for you! Suspect that Charlie Widmore's war will be between DHARMA: TNG and the Others? System Failure! Like some reality-tv cliche, I've been boldly proclaiming that I see the picture on the box of the show. As the Donald would say:



Let's begin at the beginning because the game changing scene for me, like many of you apparently, was the very first one of the episode. A lot of people are calling the Man in Black "Esau," which makes sense given the biblical connection to Jacob. But my suggestion for the Man in Black's biblical nickname would be the "Accuser" given his resemblance to the Accusing Angel (in most translations, Satan) who appears throughout the Old Testament as a persistent doubter and critic of humanity.



A great example is the Book of Job, which is framed by a divine wager over human worth. God brags about the devotion of his subject Job. The Accusing Angel counters that Job is so devoted because God has rewarded him with many possessions, a family, and good health. Ever the pessimist, the Angel bets that Job will renounce God if these things are taken from him. Eager to prove him wrong, God accepts the bet and gives the Angel permission to get "Guantanamo" on poor Job.



Remarkably, Job refuses to break even after his property is destroyed and his children are slaughtered. The Accusing Angel cynically notes that a man will give up everything to save his own skin, prompting God to authorize still harsher measures. The Angel takes Job's health, covering him from head to toe with painful boils. Job resists but eventually cracks, cursing the day he was born. Job's friends rebuke him, insisting he must have done something wrong to deserve his horrible plight.

Finally, God appears as a whirlwind and admonishes them all for presuming to understand his motives. In a series of brilliant yet disturbing passages, God illustrates the inadequacy of human metaphors to describe his divine design. The lesson is that bad things sometimes happen to good people for reasons our puny human minds just can't comprehend. His point made, God restores Job's lost health, family, and possessions, plus a little extra for his pain and suffering.

Like the Accusing Angel, the Man in Black is apparently cynical and pessimistic and about humanity. He seems convinced that our nature is to fight, destroy, and corrupt. Like God, Jacob is seemingly optimistic and determined to prove the Man in Black wrong. There's even a Jobian parallel in Ben, who becomes leader of the Others only to have his people, family, and health taken from him in horrible ways. No wonder Ben finally attacks Jacob like Job rebukes God.



The Man in Black accuses Jacob of bringing the ship -- presumably the Black Rock -- that we see off in the distance. Not surprisingly, Jacob doesn't deny the accusation. Like the Eye of Horus in his tapestry, he reaches out and touches people, drawing them to the Island. And why does Jacob do this? I think a clue to his motives can be found in his comment that the world "only ends once" and "anything that happens before that is just progress."



Jacob and the Man in Black are debating the fate of humanity. Without Jacob's intervention, the world would surely end, it's just a question of when. The Man in Black wants Jacob to stop postponing the inevitable because humans just aren't worth it. Jacob insists we're capable of progress and keeps bringing people to the Island in hopes of finding the Omega Point, which will save us once and for all. I'm guessing this is a very old debate between them -- one the Man in Black knows will never end unless he kills Jacob.

Jacob's conduct throughout the episode is consistent with this reading. He touches our Losties at pivotal moments in their lives to keep them on course for the Island, where they have roles in his plan to defy fate. Notice how several of the people he visits -- i.e., Jack, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, and Sayid -- play key parts in causing the Incident. The Sawyer encounter is particularly instructive. If he doesn't finish that letter, chase the real Sawyer to Australia, crash on the Island, travel back in time, and pull a Han Solo, the assault on the Swan site probably fails.



Notice as well how closely the Incident resembles the Swan implosion, right down to the flying metal objects and bright flash of light. That's more than mere narrative parallel. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to learn that Desmond's activation of the Fail-Safe generated an electromagnetic pulse much like Juliet's detonation of the fission trigger. Bottom line: both events saved the world against all odds, in defiance of the Valenzetti. That's two we owe Jacob...



So who are Jacob and the Man in Black? I have some ideas, but first let me note one more relevant Old Testament connection. In the Book of Genesis, the biblical patriarch Jacob wrestles with a mysterious figure (sometimes said to be the aforementioned Accusing Angel) on the night before being reunited with Esau. The story of their battle is often interpreted as a metaphor for Jacob's internal struggle with his own doubts and mental demons. You might say Jacob was wrestling with his bad twin.



Here's where things get a little whackadoo. I'm sticking with my speculation that the Island is sentient, like Stanislaw Lem's Solaris or Philip K. Dick's VALIS. The twist is that some ancient trauma damaged the Island's giant brain. The result was two distinct personalities: one light, one dark. Jacob and the Man in Black are avatars that represent these two opposing sides of the Island's identity. (And before you say avatars don't eat, remember that Dave craved tacos.) Jacob was right that Hurley isn't crazy. It's the Island that's lost its mind...



This brings me to the other people whom Jacob visited -- Ilana, Locke, Jin, and Sun. Since none of them played a direct role in causing the Incident, I suspect that Jacob has other parts in mind for these four. In fact, I think we've just witnessed Locke's real purpose, which was to provide a loophole for the Man in Black to kill Jacob. You read that correctly -- I think Jacob wanted to die. He saw the Man in Black's move coming from a mile away and exploited it for his own ends. Hence the Obi-Wan Kenobi quality to Jacob's death.

I think Jacob has concluded that the Omega Point can't occur until they're both dead. The rules prohibit them from killing each other. I'm betting, however, that whatever loophole the Man in Black exploited to kill Jacob now leaves him vulnerable to a similar fate. He's standing in the shadow of the statue, having just orchestrated the murder of the Others' beloved leader. Someone loyal to Jacob will eventually figure this out and avenge Jacob's death. I'm guessing that part is reserved for Ilana.



That leaves Jin and Sun. Notice how they're the only ones Jacob visits as a couple, at the moment of their improbable union. It's because their role in his plan necessarily requires two actors: conceiving little Ji-Yeon. Jacob realizes that the only way to cure the Island's madness is to substitute two new avatars who somehow transcend their opposition. One will be Ji-Yeon, who was conceived on the Island but born off it. The other will be Aaron, who was conceived off the Island but born on it.



Mark my words, those two will eventually meet and fall in love. Everything that rises must converge on a Lost wedding between Aaron and Ji-Yeon some time before 2031. And while I'm making predictions (you'd think I'd learn my lesson, but no...) here are a few more from the Whackadoo Well for your reading pleasure:

Whackadoo Prediction 4: Richard is from the Black Rock. He may be its Captain, Magnus Hanso, but more likely he's the first mate based on his apparent role as advisor to whoever leads the Others. The Black Rock's arrival is the first step in Jacob's elaborate long con of both destiny and the Man in Black, as symbolized by Richard's ship in a bottle in Follow the Leader.

Whackadoo Prediction 8: Nothing we've already seen on the show has changed as a result of detonation of the Jughead's fission trigger. Flight 815 crashed on the Island just as it always did -- there is no reboot yielding a grandfather paradox. If that's where the show were going, I believe we would have received some small but clear indication of its direction. Something like Cort's Cuthbert's horn -- those of you familiar with the Stephen King's Dark Tower series will know what I mean. Instead, we got just the opposite in Miles's sardonic comment that Jack and Co. might be causing the Incident by trying to prevent it.

By that same token, it's equally wrong to say this was all simply a case of whatever happened, happened. I maintain that our Losties, like Desmond, changed what was supposed to happen. It is this altered timeline, in which they save the world, that we've witnessed thus far. Because neither the Incident nor activation of the Fail-Safe was supposed to happen, the general rule of course correction doesn't apply. Both events must thus be actively preserved. If anything changes, as Ms. Hawking said, every single one of us is dead.

Whackadoo
Prediction 15: Some of those present for the Incident will survive, having been transported by the blast back to Island's the future. That's why Jacob's last words were: "They're coming..."

Whackadoo Prediction 16: Juliet will wake up naked in the jungle just like Desmond did following the Swan implosion. Okay, that's probably some wishful thinking on my part, but the Desmond parallel gives me hope that she, too, survived the blast. If so, look for her consciousness to time travel like Desmond's, and for her to join those who meet Jacob at some pivotal point in their pasts.

Whackadoo Prediction 23: Sayid is dead. Yes, the Island has healing powers. But even on the Island, you don't come back from a gut shot -- ask Ana Lucia, Libby, and Colleen. I wish it were otherwise, but I've had a sinking suspicion for some time that Sayid's story is basically done.

Whackadoo Prediction 42: Hurley survives but must make a pit-stop in 2004 before quantum leaping back to the future. His job? To actively effectuate events we've seen by hanging Charlie's guitar from a tree branch, where Locke will tell Charlie to look, as he did back in Season 1 during House of the Rising Sun...

That's all for this recap, you all everybody. Thanks again for your incredible comments and participation, which make running Eye M Sick so rewarding! Be sure to check back here during the hiatus for further whackadoo speculations. I'll also be posting over on I Hate My DVR my new blog about television generally. If you like shows like Lost, Battlestar Galactica, and Breaking Bad, I suspect we'll have lots to talk about...

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

314 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 314 of 314   Newer›   Newest»
Capcom said...

I've always wondered if Jack and Kate were the couple in LA that Aaron was really supposed to end up with. As in, they were the ones that the psychic "saw" with him, not whomever was waiting on the other end of flight 815. Ah well, doesn't matter now. :-(

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

P.S. If anyone wants an easy way to keep up with this current ARG/FARG(fake ARG) without actually having to do anything, TLC has a Lost ARG blog here:

http://www.lostargs.com/

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, most lilely i would say ellie is preg wih dan and penny is not her bio daughter but anything is possible, ellie could be preg with twins that are not dan nor penny so i'll change the subject

but what about me?

Capcom said...

X-D

Jonathan Gaskill said...

I am beginning to perceive the two instances with the compass to be like bookends, and that they are completely integral with everything the writers are doing. One bookend is in 1954, when Locke gives the compass to Richard. The other bookend is in 2007, when Richard gives it to Locke. This 53-year period is the Mobius loop created by Smokey.

Although Smokey's reason for creating the Mobius loop in the first place was solely to help him create a loophole that would allow him to kill Jacob, the unexpected result is that it saved the world. Without the Mobius loop, the DHARMA Initiative would have successfully dug into the pocket of electromagnetism and there would have been no one there to fix it (assuming that Juliet setting off the bomb is what fixes it). The world would have been destroyed.

The second time the world was saved happened because of the work of Desmond, the man to whom the rules do not apply. He was steered toward the Island because of the efforts of Eloise (convincing him not to give Penny the ring) and Charles Widmore. I've always wondered if Charles' apparent dislike of Desmond was simply a ruse, and that he somehow knew that Desmond needed to get to the Island. Keeping Desmond away from Penny and leading Desmond to the point where he felt he needed to prove himself with a boat race around the world were all part of the plan.

Are Eloise and Charles working for Jacob, like Ilana and Bram? I'm beginning to think so. Notice that it is at the point when the Mobius loop ends that Eloise makes the statement that she does not know what happens from that point on. Perhaps Jacob, who knows only as far as the Mobius loop (like the Oracle not being able to foresee what happens when Neo returns to the Source), told Eloise and Charles everything he knew about the loop and what they had to do to reinforce it. Once the loop ends, anything can happen.

But the overall message here is that Smokey's plan to kill Jacob is what saves the world. Next season, I suspect that some of the characters (Desmond among them) will discover that they do have the ability to change things, but that if they undo the Mobius loop that Smokey put in place it will destroy the world. Therefore, the lesson that Jacob is trying to teach is the one that Locke learned when he denied himself the chance to warn his past self, weeping over the light from the hatch ("I needed that pain to get me where I am now."). This is what Jacob means when he says there is only one ending, and anything that comes before that is progress.

Smokey needed the donkey wheel to be turned in order to put the Mobius loop into effect. Without the turning of the wheel and the resulting time skips, the compass trick is impossible. Smokey, however, is not allowed to move the donkey wheel himself--it's against the rules. That's why when he appears to Locke as Christian in the donkey wheel chamber, he tells Locke that he can't help him. Locke must do it on his own. But that doesn't mean that Smokey isn't allowed to deceive. And Smokey's deception began when--disguised as Locke--he had Richard tell injured Locke that he had to die. Then later, Smokey (this time disguised as Christian) reinforces the idea that Locke must die. These two instructions from Smokey plant the seeds in Locke's mind, and when frustration at his failure kicks in, suicide seems like the best (and destined) thing to do.

By the way, I had said before that the Mobius loop is 53 years long, starting in 1954 and ending in 2007. But if you count forward one year to 2008, when the Ajira plane takes off for Guam, that makes it 54 years. And what's half of 54? That's right, 27. The halfway point of the Mobius loop is 1981. Two things happen in 1981 that we know: Claire is born on October 27th and the Hanso Group delegation comes to the Island for an inspection on December 7th. Do either of these mean anything? Not sure, but I do know that 1981 is 4 years after the Incident in 1977 and 23 years before Desmond turns the failsafe key in 2004--the two events where the world was saved. Both 4 and 23 are numbers in the Valenzetti Equation. Coincidence? Might there be other important dates we find if we add or subtract other Valenzetti Equation numbers from 1981? If you're curious, check out Lostpedia's pre-crash timeline at http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline:Pre-crash.

Capcom said...

I'm down with a Mobius loop, I love those things. :-) And I like the idea that Eloise has just stepped off the loop, for why she now doesn't know what will happen next. And, that Jacob could have told them how things would go up to that point. I really like your ideas here Jonathan!

I've also wondered if Widmore's dislike and mental beating down of Des was indeed to steer him towards his landing on the island. Especially when Wid said that thing about sacrificing his relationship with Pen, it seemed even more like he alienated his daughter at the expense of getting Des to his island destination at all costs for what Mrs.H said was his destiny and purpose.

Heheh, it's easy now to know how Locke knew exactly when to find himself needing RA to take out the bullet...cuz he was Flocke and knew exactly when/where it happened. Ben should have figured that out, but I guess since his encounter with fake Alex, it shook his instincts up. Maybe in the first scene of S6, Ben will turn around and stabbity-stab Flocke so that he can be the leader again. :-o

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Capcom, also in regard to Charles and Desmond, did you notice how when Desmond came to Charles to get the address for Daniel's mother that Charles seemed to treat him differently? Now that Desmond's role is over (at least as far as Charles believes it's over), he doesn't have to push Desmond anymore or treat him like crap. He's fine with Desmond being with Penny and just wants to make sure that Desmond keeps her safe. On top of that, he was at the hospital after Desmond had been shot. When Eloise tells him that Desmond will be okay, Charles says that's good, and seems to be honestly relieved.

Capcom said...

Indeed! Wid seems pretty desperate and neutered at this point. Not only to keep Penny safe, but also to help Eloise with the looming cosmic skerfuffle. He was so passive when Des visited him, I thought that he was finally going to offer Des his own bottle of MacCutcheon! :-)

Jonathan Gaskill said...

"Skerfuffle". I love it! I had to smile when I read that. I wonder if part of the reason that Charles is so concerned about the safety of his daughter is because like Eloise he does not know what's going to happen next either. Penny may die at any point from here on out, and he doesn't know for sure.

When I looked back at the timeline of events, Eloise made her comment about not knowing what's going to happen next right around the time when the Ajira plane took off for Guam. This strengthens the idea that Smokey's Mobius loop ends in 2008, when the Ajira plane crosses the Island's barrier. This was the event Eloise described in the Lamp Post, and it was important that the plane be there for it.

I wonder if Smokey brought the Ajira plane back in time to 2007 so that he could kill Jacob while the loop was still in effect. If Jacob had managed to stay alive until January 2008, then Smokey's plan probably would have failed.

I wonder if next season's finale will take place right at the end of the loop, in January 2008. Time will tell.

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

(reposted for goofs)

Interesting! :-)

In my head I'm fitting your mobius loop idea into my thoughts on possible time loops in general like I posted here:

http://perditascientia.blogspot.com/2009/04/thoughts-on-timeloops.html

I still haven't figured out what would happen if someone in a time loop eventually meets up with themselves in their original time (like which version would be the "real" version. etc), but thankfully we may not have to deal with that on Lost, if Juliet's magnetic/atomic blast skips them around the loop to the linear timeline in some other way.

Unknown said...

got tired of all this good versus evil, black and white, dark and light, smoke moster is this, Jacob is this Esau is that - moral mumbo jumbo quite frankly...and I wanted to attempt to get back to the TIME-TRAVEL (THE BEAUTIFUL WEB THAT THE WRITERS OF LOST WOVE FOR US ALL OVER THE LAST ENTIRE SEASON)!!!

That I feel so many are dropping now because of this Jacob on-going battle forever between the forces of light and dark


I am going to quickly try and take two points from the scenes with Locke, Ben, and Jacob - and explain why I sense something fishy (something fishy in a time-travel manipulation circular causation sort of way)...that will totally initially blow JACOB'S "assumed" importance out of the water right away, I think?

1). WHOOSH to Richard and Locke as they walk through the jungle. Richard stops, and Locke wants to know why. They're at the base of the broken-off four-toed statue. Locke wants to know what this has to do with Jacob, and Richard says it's where he lives. Richard leads Locke up to the pedestal and runs his hands along the area between two carved ridges until -- POP! Richard pushes inwards and reveals a hidden entryway. Locke and Ben head inside, but Richard stops them. Locke can't take Ben inside. Only the leader can request an audience with Jacob, and there is only one leader. Locke says he thinks Richard is making up these rules as he goes, and they go inside.


Interesting thing here is Richard - he says that only the leader can request an audience with Jacob, and there is only one leader.

Well let's look at Richard (in 1954 he appears to be the leader of the Others), eventually to be succedded by Charles Widmore. Let's next look at the two cases I am aware of that Richard associates himself with "orders" from Jacob? First we have 1954 - Locke appears to Richard and Locke tells Richard that Jacob sent him...and that Locke is the leader of the 'Others'. To which Richard seems very surprised in both cases and even describes the 'very specific process involved in chosing a leader'.

Yet what sort of solidifies or forces Richard to heed Locke's advice (the time-flashing and the exchange of the compass). INTERESTING THING...is we now know it appears that Jacob never sent Locke to Richard; and in fact the compass leg wound meeting was precipitated by whom many of you lovingly refer to as "evil" Locke now. SICK in my opinion!


The next time Richard references an order from Jacob is when Charles Widmore berates Richard for bringing young Ben back to the Temple - to which Richard's response is "it was Jacob's orders".

HOWEVER - isn't only the leader able to request an audience with Jacob (and clearly Widmore appears to be in the leadership role at this point in 1977); and based on HIS reaction he had no order from Jacob that young Ben was suppossed to be taken to Temple...so from WHO then or WHEN did Richard receive 'that order'?



DO YOU NOT SEE WHERE I AM GOING, DO YOU NOT SMELL THE SAME FISH I DO?

Unknown said...

The other scene is:
Meanwhile, inside the foot, Locke and Ben enter the room we saw in the teaser. The furnishings are simple, moonlight cascades through a hole in the pedestal, and in the center of the room a fire burns. Ben sees the tapestry, and from behind him Jacob asks if he likes it. Locke steps forward -- and they hold each other's looks. Jacob says he found his loophole. Locke says indeed he did. Ben is confused and asks if they met before, and Locke says in a manner of speaking. He then tells Ben to do what he asked. Jacob tells Ben that whatever Locke said, he wants Ben to understand one thing -- he has a choice. Ben can do what he was asked, or he can go and leave them to discuss their issues. Ben says after all this time, Jacob has finally decided to stop ignoring him? After living on the island for over thirty years, hearing his name over and over, carrying out his instructions, dealing with his lists, doing what he was told, being patient... and he never questioned it. But when Locke asks to see Jacob, he's marched up here like he's Moses. Why Locke? Angry, Ben asks what's wrong with him? What about him? Jacob says what about you?


The thing of note in here is Ben's reaction to Jacob, and Jacob's reaction to Ben.

Ben rambles on about Jacob ignoring him for thirty years, and carrying out all Jacob's instructions and on and on. However REMEMBER what Richard says "only the leader can request an audience with Jacob", and we know after Widmore is exiled - Ben succedds him as leader of the 'Others'...yet has BEN EVER EVEN MET JACOB?

No! He clearly states that to Sun, and in his very reaction to finally meeting Jacob he refers to being ignored for over thirty years. WELL I ASK AGAIN...from WHO, WHEN, or WHERE then is Ben receiving Jacob's instructions?





So in the END when I hear Ben ask Jacob "what about me"; and Jacob's response to Ben "WHAT ABOUT HIM"

I'm sorry folks but is not "god-like indifference to a lesser human beng"; it's simply WHAT IT IS!!!
What about Ben, does Jacob have any idea who Ben is? Has Jacob even been giving instructions to Ben or even ignoring him???

I'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR A "LOOPHOLE" TO TIE ALL THIS TALK BACK INTO TIME-TRAVEL...AND I THINK I'VE FOUND IT!!!


Think of all the discussions that have gone on around here about the symantecs of time-travel and even in the show itself..."well if I 'already' did that...if it 'already happened' - wouldn't I REMEMBER doing it"? Well what if Jacob's existance and these various groups of people all listening to him; merely a creation of their own desires for purpose - for something meaningful, their own orders.

i.e. John wanting more, tells Richard that Jacob sent him thus giving him the status of leader, thus causing Locke to tell Richard he will be their leader.


BUT WHERE DOES JACOB COME IN? I have yet to see Jacob actually tell anyone on island to do anything - it's always an "order" they received but from whom, from where, from when? What if Jacob asks Ben - "what about you"...simply because he truly has no idea about Ben? What if he never ignored Ben for thirty years? What if he never gave Ben any instructions

Or WHAT IF, Jacob just hasn't yet...remember the perspective of time-travel "well if I 'already' did that...if it 'already happened' - I would REMEMBER doing it"?

Jonathan Gaskill said...

Leonid, very interesting comments. Based on what I've seen, it would appear that the whole time that Ben was in leadership, Richard was either a) going to the statue instead of the cabin to get instructions from Jacob, or b) making up instructions from Jacob.

Based on Richard's penchant for loyalty and his reverence for Jacob, I doubt the second one. It seems more likely that Richard ALWAYS is the one who goes to Jacob, no matter who the leader is. Richard himself even said that the leader of the Others has to REQUEST a presence with Jacob. Richard seems to have more leeway about how often he gets to visit Jacob, but there's still an attitude of reverence.

In regard to Ben's comment that Jacob doesn't like technology, I suspect that it's actually Smokey who doesn't like technology. Somehow Ben has been deceived into thinking that Jacob lives at Horace's cabin, when in reality it's actually Smokey. If you doubt it, think about why the sonic fence actually works against Smokey. It's because it's technological in nature. Smokey (i.e. MIB) is the opposite of Jacob, who is not afraid of technology or progress. I haven't verified this, but I wonder if you were to look back over every scene with Evil Locke (who I also believe was Smokey in disguise) whether or not you would ever see him using anything technological. Does he ever hold a flashlight? Does he ever enter a building where the electricity is working? Same thing with Christian. Ever seen him handle technology?

Bigmouth said...

Jonathan Gaskill (henceforth, "Jon G," in honor of Memento): I like your thinking, but I question the assumption that the Man in Black is responsible for the time loop we've just witnessed. It makes more sense to me that the loop is Jacob's plan to save the world, and the Man in Black simply exploits it to create the loophole. The only reason the the latter effectuates the watch encounter is to plant the notion that Locke must die during his time off the Island. That way the Man in Black can snatch Locke's dead body when he returns.

This is the Man in Black's loophole. I think only Jacob's chosen ones can enter the foot -- notice how Richard stops at the door. The Man in Black needs Locke's body so he can be there in the foot to persuade Ben to kill Jacob.

PS: Here's another whackadoo thought. Did Charles Widmore sell his soul to Smokey in hopes of regaining control of the Island? Is that why Charles is so friendly to Jeremy Bentham? Maybe he's effectuating the loophole...

Jon G said...

Ah, Memento. I totally love that movie!

Anyway, I don't have a problem with your suggestion that the time loop is Jacob's doing. In fact, I think I prefer that, because the more I've followed my original thinking to its inevitable conclusion, the more power and cunning I had to attribute to MIB and the more I had to relegate Jacob to the background, as someone who is reflexively reacting to MIB's grand master scheme. Your suggestion that MIB simply inserts a few key aspects into Jacob's plan seems more likely.

Besides, I believe the time loop is what saves the world twice, which seems more like something Jacob would do. But we can see that Jacob--like the Oracle--is only postponing the inevitable in the hopes that something unique will happen that will bring things to a positive conclusion. It seems that history and man's technological advances have progressed to the point where it will destroy itself, and the time loop has become a necessary device to save mankind from itself.

I'm also toying with the idea of Jacob being Locke's father. Anthony Cooper seems too young to be Locke's biological father, based on what we've been told. Locke's mother was 15 when she was pregnant. Locke's grandother said that the man she was dating was "twice her age", which puts him at around 30. This was in 1955, meaning that in 2004 Locke's father would be 79 years old. I don't know about you, but Anthony Cooper didn't look 79 years old to me. And Jacob always has the appearance of a 30-year-old man, the same way he would have looked to Locke's grandmother.

The only reason I can think of for Jacob being Locke's father is to use Locke as bait for MIB. Locke's character goes back and forth between thinking he's special, then thinking he's not. But I hardly believe that after all the things he's been through, that his destiny was to be a pawn of MIB and then tossed to the side.

What if there's something that Jacob--being Locke's father--passed on to him? What if Jacob actually transferred all his powers to Locke, including the power of the phoenix (assuming Jacob had that power to begin with, of course)? Jacob dies, but Locke resurrects and takes his father's place. I don't know, what do you think?

Jon G said...

Just had a thought about Desmond, although I don't know if it means anything. Desmond seems to be intimately connected with the "family" of Charles Widmore and Eloise Hawking:

Charles Widmore has been a huge influence on Desmond's life, and I suspect that all the negative pressure was completely on purpose in order to drive Desmond to the Island.

Eloise Hawking (Charles' lover, if not his wife) personally visited Desmond during his time skip to 1996, warning him not to marry Penny. Years later, she showed up at the hospital seeming genuinely concerned about his welfare.

Penny Widmore fell in love with Desmond and sought him out, eventually rescuing him from the Island.

Daniel Faraday, son of Charles and Eloise, has Desmond listed as his constant. He also sought out Desmond on the Island around 2004 and begged him to go see his mother.

Brother Campbell (who had a photograph with him and Eloise together) told Desmond that he was meant for a greater purpose. He kicked Desmond out just in time for Desmond to meet Penny.

These five people, all connected to either Charles or Eloise (or both), have been a huge influence on Desmond and the choices he has made in life. Penny seems to have no agenda or motivation other than her love for Desmond. But the other four seem to have a hidden agenda, with the possible exception of Brother Campbell, who I suspect we'll see again next season so they can explain why he's in a picture with Eloise.

Why do they all focus on Desmond so much? Are they under instructions by Jacob to influence the man to whom the rules do not apply? Are they trying to exploit Desmond somehow? Why is it this specific group of people who focus on Desmond? One thing is for sure: Desmond's story is not yet over. I suspect that next season he'll be saying, "See you in another life, brother," and it will have a whole new meaning when he does.

Jon G said...

Bigmouth, I think I'm switching back to your idea that the Smoke Monster and MIB are two different entities. I was just thinking about how the Smoke Monster has been compared to Cerberus (the references to "Cerberus vents" on the blast door map). I then did some quick research and found that the Egyptian equivalent of Cerberus is Anubis. According to the picture Ben sees on the wall just before he is judged by the Smoke Monster, Anubis is bowing before another lightning-like entity. This other entity is most likely MIB.

The Smoke Monster serves as the Island's security in a general sense, while MIB appears to have the ability to imitate dead people. I think we've seen these two working in tandem at least four times:

1) When MIB appeared as Eko's brother, followed by the Smoke Monster killing Eko. It should be noted that the Smoke Monster briefly imitated the men from Eko's past, so it's not just MIB who can imitate.

2) The Smoke Monster judged Ben, followed by MIB appearing as Alex (and of course, Locke)

3) When Jack first sees his father on the Island and chases after him, you can hear the sound of the Smoke Monster

4) Just before Sun and Frank come across MIB disguised as Christian at the DHARMA barracks, they hear the sound of the Smoke Monster

It should also be noted that the producers have stated that some of the appearances of Walt have been the Smoke Monster. Probably one of those appearances would have been after Ben shot Locke after they visited Horace's cabin.

In regard to MIB, I'm wondering if his ability to shapeshift is limited to corpses that are located on the Island. That would explain why he's able to imitate Christian, Locke and Eko's brother. And this could be the loophole that MIB is referring to. In order to gain access to Jacob, MIB needs to be able to imitate the leader of the Others. In order to do that, the leader of the Others has to die and his corpse be located on the Island.

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

Crud, google is messing up my post. Anyway....

I was looking up info on physicist Hugh Everett after seeing the Nova episode based on him this week, and I went down the various Wiki leads to the thought experiment on Quantum Suicide and found the following, that sounds a lot like Lost and particularly Michael and his misfiring gun. I know that's alot to read, but it's interesting. Most importantly, it gives TPTB a loophole of their own on how they said early on that Lost would not be SciFi, but actually seems to be. Perhaps TPTB have created a show which is just positing "thought experiments" like the quantum suicide, rather than actual hard SciFi. :o):

"For example, a man sits down before a gun, which is pointed at his head. This is no ordinary gun; i­t's rigged to a machine that measures the spin of a quantum particle. Each time the trigger is pulled, the spin of the quantum particle is measured. Depending on the measurement, the gun will either fire, or it won't. If the quantum particle is measured as spinning in a clockwise motion, the gun will fire. If the particle is spinning counterclockwise, the gun won't go off. There'll only be a click.

Nervously, the man takes a breath and pulls the trigger. The gun clicks. He pulls the trigger again. Click. And again: click. The man will continue to pull the trigger again and again with the same result: The gun won't fire. Although it's functioning properly and loaded with bullets, no matter how many times he pulls the trigger, the gun will never fire. He'll continue this process for eternity, becoming immortal.

Go back in time to the beginning of the experiment. The man pulls the trigger for the very first time, and the particle is now measured as spinning clockwise. The gun fires. The man is dead.

But, wait. The man already pulled the trigger the first time -- and an infinite amount of times following that -- and we already know the gun didn't fire. How can the man be dead? The man is unaware, but he's both alive and dead. Each time he pulls the trigger, the universe is split in two. It will continue to split, again and again, each time the trigger is pulled, and becoming quantum immortal. ­ This thought experiment is called 'quantum suicide'. It was first posed by then-Princeton University theorist Max Tegmark in 1997 (now on faculty at MIT). However, science fiction author Larry Niven originally proposed a fictional variant of quantum suicide in his short story "All The Myriad Ways" in which the protagonist final action in the story kills/fails to kill him in a myriad of alternate realities."

Bigmouth said...

I finally saw the new Star Trek last night and...meh. Forgive me fellow Sickies, but I was a little underwhelmed. Don't get me wrong -- I thought it was good. I just didn't think it was great the way some reviewers have claimed.

Greg Tramel said...

i can't remember exactly what TBTB said but what i gleaned was they said the time travel is paradox free(time travel does has some science to back it up so i guess we could say it is not scifi, ify) and doers not include alternate realities or multiverses

Greg Tramel said...

leonid, i think there was some time travel travel subtext in the opening Jacob and MIB dialogue mirroring Hurley and Miles' time travel discussion

Jacob said there is only 1 end on the timeline thread (he told Ben & Flocke it takes a long time to make the thread)so he was reiterating Miles' comment that this is our present in 1 long continuum

Capcom, try Firefox or Chrome instead of Interet Explorer, there is an issue with blogger problems

Capcom said...

Tx Big, I will try that.

I liked ST as a movie per se, but as a prequel to ST:TOS, it left me a bit befuddled. I did enjoy imagining the new guys as the young-old-guys for the most part. But I didn't get Chekov's greezy Jerry Lee Lewis hairdo. :-\

I also didn't understand why Spock and Nemo didn't get stretched out when passing thru the black hole. :-o

Unknown said...

The general concensus or topic was "JACOB and KNOWLEDGE of FUTURE EVENTS"...and some other talk came out about Jacob shaping the lives of the Losties and stuff along those lines?




MY SIMPLE RESPONSE is: knowledge of future events is a very powerful wording depending on how you mean it

What I will say is the ONLY thing I AM SURE of - is many people are way jumping the gun when there's no evidence or need yet; it's very speculative THAT I WILL SAY I AM SURE OF. :P


As for anything else - what I would be willing to say (is here's an example that I want those of you that need to...you know how you are; I want you to chew on this)?

IF today you received a visit from someone that time-travelled from the future and claimed to be special. THAT he'll prove it to you because he's not even born yet (and he tells you were to go witness his birth).

THEN you do so, you go seek out what he told you - and sure enough you witness the birth of a child bearing his name. Because of that wouldn't you then possibly continue to keep an eye on him for a few years to see if what he claimed might be true - THOUGH PROBABLY TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE AT THE TIME YOU FIRST HEARD IT?

Do you receiving the messasge from the time-traveller truly have any "fore-knowledge" of the future? You have possible guess you can make because a weird time-traveller might have given you the ideas - but you don't truly have "FORE-KNOWLEDGE"

And because you VISITED THIS YOUTH IN HIS PAST, to check in on something you thought was strange or miraculous...and maybe EVEN TOUCHED HIM; BECAUSE YOU'RE JUST A CREEPY TOUCHY, FEELY KIND OF PERSON ;)

By doing THAT - have you NOW SHAPED THAT INDIVIDUALS FUTURE, and ASSURED THAT HE ARRIVES TO THE EXACT LOCATION THAT HE WILL NEED TO BE IN 50 YEARS FROM NOW to time-travel back to you to come witness his birth?

Unknown said...

POINT MADE - I BELIEVE
Translate that to Richard and/or Jacob if you want!

Just because Richard had a visit from time-travelling Locke - doesn't mean Richard has any true "fore-knowledge" of any events at that point necessarily.

And just because Richard goes and seeks out young Locke, doesn't mean that he has now shaped Locke's arrival to the island in 50 years from now.



It COULD WORK MUCH THE SAME WAY is all I am saying and KNOW with certainty; versus saying "yeah Jacob defintiely touched these people and thus put their lives on a certain path"...Just because Jacob may have gained some insight from a time-traveller doesn't mean he necessarily has true "fore-knowledge" of every particular event at that point.

Just because Jacob goes and seeks out these people, doesn't mean that he has necessarily now shaped all of their arrivals to the island years from now.

JLes said...

Leonid...I'm gonna have to call shenanigans on you here. I think you're getting pretty nit-picky, and your argument is more about the nature of "knowledge" than it is of "fore-knowledge".

If Richard shows up at Locke's birth based on when Locke told him he was born.....Richard knew when he was going to be born.

And if Jacob is sitting reading a book as Locke falls out of an 8 story window....Jacob knew he was gonna fall.

I mean, I hear what you're saying, that they don't really "KNOW" until after the event happens...but....come on....

After you hear somebody from the future "predict" something accurately, you should be pretty convinced that they KNOW stuff happened...because they already lived through it. If I Time Travel back to February 2nd, 2008.... I will bet $1MM on the Giants to win the Superbowl because I KNOW they will. For me...it already happened.

Jesus....do we sound like Miles and Hurley? I'll stop.

Jon G said...

What if the Möbius loop wasn’t originally in the timeline? What if it was added later? And what if when it was first added, it contained only a minor change in the timeline? Then, whoever put the loop into the timeline continued fiddling with it and tweaking it—adding new elements and changing others—until the desired result came at the end?

The reason I’m asking this is because I keep thinking about the complexity of MIB’s plan. It took a lot of separate events coming together in just the right away in order for him to be able to mimic Locke and drag Ben with him into Jacob’s lair (and have Ben be a willing participant). Either MIB got very, very lucky the first time around with the loop and everything worked together just right for him, or he’s had to make innumerable changes to it as he went along. Either that, or he had enough knowledge ahead of time about what might happen (perhaps based on all the cycles that came before) that he had a pretty good idea what he would need to tweak.

Before you write off this idea, you need to keep something in mind. Remember the scene where Locke is down in the frozen wheel room? Aboveground, Sawyer, Juliet and the rest were able to see the statue. The Orchid wasn’t there, and neither was the well. So that scene took place at least before DHARMA was on the Island, maybe even longer if we knew who had dug the well. But my point is that Christian is down in the frozen wheel room with Locke. Did it ever strike any of you as strange that Christian—even if he is a ghost—is able to go back in time to be able to visit Locke? Does this mean Christian (or MIB if I’m right about Christian being MIB in disguise) is able to go back and forth on the timeline?

What if MIB and Jacob have the ability to go back and forth within the confines of the Möbius loop? That would explain how it can be known when and where Locke is going to fall out of the building. Or when and where Desmond is going to buy the ring (along with the guy in red shoes being crushed to death as Eloise talks to him). Or any other number of events that occur within the loop.

Also, I think I might take back what I said about the Möbius loop being mostly Jacob’s idea. The loop exists solely because of the time skipping. And how did the time skipping start? Because Christian told Locke that the Island had to be moved. And how did the time skipping stop? Because Christian told Locke that he had to finish turning the frozen wheel all the way. And who is Christian? Well, I believe it’s MIB, so I have a hard time seeing how Jacob had anything to do with the loop since MIB seems to be the one orchestrating it all. I believe this is verified when Ilana and Bram find that the ash circle around Horace’s cabin had been broken. MIB in the guise of Christian has been pretending to speak on Jacob’s behalf.

I just had a thought about the well that was located where the Orchid station would later be built. Remember how the rope that had been holding Locke was stuck in the ground when the time skip happened? The well wasn't there yet, it was just grassy earth. But maybe the presence of a rope sticking out of the ground was the reason that someone DID dig a well there later on. Someone came along, saw the rope, and decided to dig a hole to see where the rope went. Lo and behold, there's a frozen wheel room down there! Sawyer's rope created the scenario that led to the discovery of the frozen wheel room, which led to the Orchid being built, which led to Ben going through it to turn the wheel, which started the time skips, which led to Locke going down the well, which led to Sawyer's rope getting stuck in the ground. Another Möbius loop!!

Jon G said...

For those of you who might not have read some of my overly long ramblings, at one point I talked about how the Möbius loop is 54 years long--starting in 1954 and ending in 2008. I had felt that the number 54 was significant because the producers had mentioned that Valenzetti calculated that the world had 27 years remaining, and 27 is half of 54. I just now realized that 54 is half of 108. Another coincidence?

If you count from the disappearance of the Black Rock in 1845 and go forward 108 years, you come to 1953, which is right before the Möbius loop starts in 1954. What if all of the cycles that Jacob has used to further his goals always take 108 years each time?

JLes said...

Interesting thought....I like it.

That would certainly help to explain the 108 in the Eye M Sick painting too.

Question:
Hanging a replica of that painting in your apartment...... Awesome? Creepy? Sad?

Greg Tramel said...

still reading all the comments but leonid nobody is saying Jacob caused the losties to do anything, as he said with the candy bar he just gives them a little push, the losties are still "controlled" by their own free will AND fate so no Jacob does not have EXACT knowledge of future events, he just knows there is 1 end but what happens on along the timeline is somewhat up for grabs and he can only hope progress is made, he can't "cause" progress

Greg Tramel said...

jon g, the scene with locke turning the wheel is considered the "oldest" scene we have ever seen, like B.C.

Bigmouth said...

Jon G: I agree that Casual Christian is the Man in Black. But I'm still not persuaded the loop is his idea -- it's too closely linked to Hawking's plan to save the world. The MIB simply exploits the loop for his own purposes knowing that Jacob and Hawking can't stop him for fear of disrupting the chain of events that leads to the Incident and Fail-Safe.

As I see it, the MIB deliberately causes the time skips by omitting crucial info (i.e., how to move the Island) from his instructions to Locke. This allows the MIB to get Locke off the Island and to plant the idea that Locke must die. All of this is consistent with the MIB's motive to create a loophole that allows him to kill Jacob.

It's so diabolical when you think about it. The MIB actually directs Locke to Eloise knowing she has no choice but to send his body back to the Islandwith the Oceanic 6 to make sure they end up in the past.

PS: I've got mull the whole 108-year cycle suggestion. You may be onto something with this -- it fits with my instinct that the Swan countdown timer is basically a metaphor for the Valenzetti.

Greg Tramel said...

memphish has a timeline on her blog
timeline

Capcom said...

I'm still onboard with ya 99.999% JG! And MIB might not have to be all that lucky, because after all, they've had a lot of time to live through (especially if he threatend Jacob during the Black Rock appearance) to get the job done, i.e. to get his perfect loophole plan into affect. 1000 years should be about enough time to hatch even the most complicated plan of mice and men and MIBs. :o)

Greg Tramel said...

i was thinking Ben moving the FDW is what caused the flashes, somehow he not only turned it he knocked it off it''s axis or i'm thinking it is because he was tainted for using (or rather misusing ) technology to get to the wheel while locke went in old school and did not allow sawyer to help making it easier for him, so they had to flash back to the "beginning" to recalibrate the FDW

Greg Tramel said...

oh and jon G i dig the notion of the 108 year cycle

Capcom said...

Oh yeah, and Jles, I'd love to have the hatch painting in my living room (or at least in my den/studio) cuz after all, it's not any more bizarre than a Picasso! :o) Unless you're talking about the Doggie painting in the cabin, now THAT'S kinda creepy to me for some reason, haha.

FYI, apparently the Hatch Painting is still available for purchase:
http://www.thehatchpainting.com/?nav=home

Greg Tramel said...

$25 for the unsigned print, VERY TEMPTING

Jon G said...

Greg, I agree that Jacob is dealing with people that have free will, but you do have to admit that his very presence in some situations creates changes. One possibility is that with Charlie's guitar (where the heck did he get that?) helped to ensure that Ajira 316 recreated Oceanic 815. An even bigger influence was when it seemed as if he healed Locke from his fall. Without his intervention, Locke would probably have died. So I agree that there is free will, but there are also things that would not have happened unless Jacob had intervened.

Oh yeah, and I agree with you that the scene where Locke turns the wheel is the oldest scene we've seen yet. Don't have any proof that it's any older than the scene where Jacob and MIB are on the beach watching the Black Rock, but it's just a gut feeling.

Bigmouth, omigosh I had totally forgotten about Christian telling Locke in the frozen wheel chamber that he needed to bring everyone to Eloise. That is a HUGE connection right there! I'll have to think about that one for a bit to see if there are any other ramifications of that, such as MIB having knowledge of the Lamp Post and his possible connection to the "great man" who designed it and helped DHARMA find the Island (up to and including the possibility that he IS that "great man").

But you also explained something that had been bothering me, which is that the time loop seems to do a good thing (save the world twice) and a bad thing (lead to Jacob's death), so it was difficult to tell who was behind it all. But your explanation that MIB would use the fact that the time loop saves the world as a sort of insurance against any do-gooders changing it makes his plan that much more insidious. Genius!! It sort of reminds me of the storyline of Watchmen (just watched the movie at a $3 theater last weekend).

Also, I like your idea of the Swan countdown timer being a metaphor for Valenzetti. And in case no one has mentioned it yet, if you add up all the variables of the Valenzetti Equation, it adds up to 108.

Greg Tramel said...

yeah, jacob had influence like tons of stuff that influence our lives but it is up to us to take it and run with it yet at time same time fate does take it's toll and it is up to us to achieve the balance

Capcom said...

Keep in mind that Jacob's death may not be a bad thing in the end, if he can rise (Aslan-like in willing death) as the Phoenix out of the fire that Flocke kicked him into! :-o

Greg Tramel said...

i'm not the only one out there theorizing that "jacob" will then inhabit locke #1's body

jack and gang (as jacob said they're coming)will not know which locke to believe

JLes said...

24" x 32" .....pffffffft. WEAK! Step it up Timothy Yarger Fine Art.... I'm looking for a piece of art, not a postcard.

I want like a 4.5' x 6' life-sized version to feature above my bed or couch.

I'm also thinking I take a ship wheel, saw it in half, and nail it into the wall by my door as a Frozen Donkey Wheel coat hanger!

I need a life.

Jon G said...

Greg, I love your idea of Ben being unsuccessful in turning the wheel all the way because he was tainted.

Fans on Lostpedia have theorized that based on what the entire wheel probably looks like...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/a/a1/Frozen_wheel_mockup.jpg...it most likely symbolizes the Dharmacakra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DharmacakraThis Buddhist symbol is said to have turned when new teaching is introduced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Turnings_of_the_Wheel_of_DharmaSo if Ben wasn't truly qualified to turn the wheel because he wasn't actually important, or because his use of technology tainted him, then his attempt to turn the wheel would fail. I also believe that MIB was completely counting on Ben being the first to try it, knowing Ben's character. Without Ben's failed attempt, there would be no time skips and quite possibly no Mobius loop. I also noticed that many of the time skips seemed to be completely intentional, either guided by destiny or good ol' MIB somehow.

Greg Tramel said...

yes, the dharma wheel

poor Ben, he was thinking he was in charge and using everybody else to get there but it turns out HE was the one being used ALL along

Jon G said...

Greg, good point about achieving balance. Ultimately, I think that's what the show is about. Check out my post on The Fuselage talking about that:

http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=114182Your idea of two Lockes is awesome!!

"Ilana, this is why I called you back to the Island. Shoot the Dark One."
"Ilana, don't listen to his lies. I alone know who tried to kill you so long ago."
"Don't lie to her! It was YOU who tried to kill her."
"There's only one way to solve this."
"That's right. Rock, paper, scissors."

And so the two Lockes spend the rest of eternity playing rock, paper, scissors--each of them always choosing the same thing every time. Lost goes down in history as the most awesome show to have the worst ending ever.

Capcom said...

Heheh, I like the idea of a two-Locke smackdown. And then, everyone left on the island will be like Spock in that ST:TOS episode where he had to decide which was the fake Kirk, and then shoot it. X-D

I hear ya Jles, lifesize painting please! Also, as an artist, there's a little too much negative space in the lower left corner for my taste. But maybe it was supposed to look as if Des hadn't gotten to that area to fill it in yet. :-\

Greg Tramel said...

i don't know, as an amuetuer art critic i think the negative space lead you into the painting

Greg Tramel said...

since having 2 lockes at the same time is THE loophole it would make sense if it came back to bite MIB (i'm gonna start calling him the trickster)in the ass

Capcom said...

I see what you mean GT, on Big's header pic it seems cropped in better, but on the print they're selling it seems bigger and more unfinished to me. Must be my eyes. :o)

Speaking of trickster, that reminds me of Native American coyote legends.

Greg Tramel said...

oh, i was just looking at the 1 on big's page

yes, fate and free will intermingle

Capcom said...

Perhaps Fate is where your going, and Free Will is how you get there?

Capcom said...

Oh yeah, two more things that bugged me about the ST movie (as per Big's post):

1) Too much lens-flaring going on(CGI and/or real).

2) The bridge was unrealistically bright! Having worked in a lab where all our analytical equipment had display screens of some sort, it seems to me that it would be very difficult to easily determine readouts and images on their monitor screens in all that glare. You'd have to keep covering the screen with your hand or something to see it. X-D

Greg Tramel said...

this is worth looking into
eternal return

Greg Tramel said...

"at the point where the Odyssey begins Telemachus is twenty and is sharing his absent father’s house on the island of Ithaca with his mother Penelope and a crowd of 108 boisterous young men, "the Suitors", whose aim is to persuade Penelope that her husband is dead and that she should marry one of them."

Anonymous said...

I think the rules say that they OR THEIR FOLLOWERS can't kill the other. That is why Esau's loophole was to get one of Jacob's own people to do it. If so that would mean the only way to get rid of Esau would be to get one of his people to do it.

James

Bigmouth said...

Capcom: I hated the bridge from the moment I saw it in the previews. My main casting peeve was Winona Ryder as Spock's mom. I mean...Winona? Really? Come on, JJ...

Greg Tramel: I quite agree re eternal return -- check out the first paragraph of my recap of the Variable.

James: I think only someone originally chosen by Jacob (e.g., Locke, Ben, Widmore, Ellie) can kill Jacob. No one else can enter the foot, not even Richard.

Capcom said...

LOL about Rider, Big. Well we're doomed now, you know how J.J. likes to re-use his buddies and regulars. She could keep showing up in J.J. productions from now on. Maybe she'll be in Lost's season 6 too. :-o

Bigmouth said...

I caught a little of Not in Portland the other night and noticed something interesting. Jack and Kate use the "count to five" speech as code when she and Sawyer are escaping from Hydra Island. Without that code, the escape might have failed.

Then it hit me. That lunchbox Jacob gives Kate is the same one she and Tom Brennan use for their time capsule. Unless Kate buries that lunchbox, Tom doesn't die, and she maybe never goes to Australia.

All of this is Jacob effectuating critical events we've already seen on the show.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Off-topic, but I suck. I kept seeing my las post as the last post. Never noticed that it was post 200 and I had to click newer to get to 262. OK, this really is on-topic: I suck. Comments to continue.

Capcom said...

Thanks Big, I was hoping that someone would look back and find where we'd seen that lunchbox somewhere before, I was too lazy to dig into it myself. :o) Very interesting. That would also imply, hopefully, that her encounter with Jacob didn't happen in an alternate timeline, since there is some discussion about why he called her mother by her formerly married name, Austin, instead of her new last name with Wayne (can't remember what that was).

LOL Wayne. Yeah, last year Google began starting new pages for the same post at 201, and I think, 401, etc. Gotta keep an eye on that unfortunately. P.S. You don't suck, it took everyone a bit to get used to that at first. :-)

Capcom said...

Have a nice Memorial Day everyone. Prayers and thanks also, to anyone who's lost a loved one in a fight for freedom and democracy somewhere, sometime.

:-x

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, all. I wonder if a few others have stopped thinking mine was the last post w/o seeing the link. You'd think Google would either make it bigger or give it its own dang line.

Going by the glossary for GETTING LOST I wrote, I have it as Kate Dodd when Wayne was her step-dad. Re: the lunchbox, I'll bet that there are WAY more loops than we've discussed here, the most recent being Juliet causing the pregnancy death problems she was brought to the Island to fix (by exploding the bomb).

I'm glad someone else is recalling Brother Campbell. And even Capcom's idea that Claire's psychic might have seen Jack & Kate as Aaron's adoptive parents, just as Desmond was wrong about Claire getting on the chopper. Though Malkin, like Miles, later admits he lies for a living, and in Locke's sweat lodge dream, Boone points out Desmond with three stweardesses and tells Locke forget him, he's only in it for himself. I've always wondered about that one line.

And I'm still standing by my theory that the world hasn't been saved only two times, unless one were to factor in the bad Locke hating technology whereas Jacob embraces it (does that make me MIB, I wonder?). Did it take the technology of the atomic bomb to create the need to save the world? If Big is right about the Island being of extra-terrestrial origins, was there a nuclear war somewhere in the Big Dipper or Orion?

And I agree that the whole idea of the cultivation of the loophole was patience, just as Richard told young Ben he needed to be very, very patient.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I think Richard is pulling a con on everyone with his "Jacob wanted this" hoo-hah. In fact, part of me wants to think he's in on it (recall when I mentioned MIB looked like a less-groomed version of Richard)?

Richard says he was off Island three times. One was to visit Locke as a kid. Two was to get Juliet to the Island. Three was to reaffirm to Juliet that her sister was OK. Juliet's presence is what causes Ben to start getting selfish, prior to 2001 I think he was as good a leader as Widmore once was. Also, by getting frustrated with young Locke, he went with Ben as a second choice.

Ah, what I'm typing makes less sense as I type it. Guess my point is--if Richard isn't lying about it--he was off-Island only three times (which kinda surprises me), moreso to affect Juliet's destiny than Locke's. Hear me out. Remember, I've thought that 1977-2007 has played out many times, maybe even 1954-2008. If Juliet is there to start making Ben a less viable candidate as leader, and really, she does just that, he loses control quite easily, then that makes it that much easier for him to be jealous of Locke and turn the wheel himself. I've thought that Ben just couldn't turn the wheel correctly because of his injured arm (Locke has an injured leg, but he braces his body against the wall). If Ben put more strength with his right arm than left, well, sure, the wheel might go off its center.

Amongst other things, Richard's ignorance or forgetfulness adds to this. And he seems to forget to keeps tabs on his cassette tape from the Staff. Which serves to undermine Ben's strength as leader yet again.

I don't think MIB is Smokey per se. The Cerberus vents are one thing. But going back to the first episode, the Monster acts as exactly what it is described as, a security system. Just as Jacob touched the 06, the smoke moster pretty much kept most everyone BUT the 06 from finding out so much of the Island's mythology, by staying out of the jungle and at the beach camp.

Thinking over how S6 will play out, I think this long con will continue, that certain people/things aren't what we'll mull over during the hiatus. What really happened when the Black Rock arrived, why it ended up in the Dark Territory. Who Richard really is, for that matter if Ilana is a female counterpart to Richard.

Or, and wouldn't this be crazy, what if it's Locke's eye we saw opening at the end of S5? What if he has the knowledge of S1-S5? What then?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

No, seriously, what then? (Yep, I'm in a causal loop).

Capcom said...

Thanks for the clarification on Kate's stepdad's name Wayne. :-)

Yes, timeloop possibilites indeed. There are so many, it kind of reminds me of those pictures of colliding particles spiraling off in all directions! It's also like the multiverse theory of that physicist on Nova last week, who theorized that everything we do can be splitting off into varied alternate realities. :-o

I could be wrong, but I think that's one reason why Malkin got so shookup when he read Claire's last reading, because he knew that he was a fake, but then he had a real image somehow. At least that's how it seemed to me. Aside from whatever doomy-gloomy vision he had as well.

With your idea on patience, I'm still wondering if that wasn't MIB disguised as Richard, when RA was talking to Bennie that night. Probably not, but it's weird. Maybe the reason why RA doesn't remember some things is because he was sometimes MIB and truly doesn't know?! Actually, that would kind of tick me off if that was the case. :-p

Heheh, I can picture Jacob giving RA some delegating powers, and to just tell them "Jacob said so." Heheh.

And what the heck IS the Dark Territory, do we know that yet?!

Capcom said...

P.S. Here's a good Season 5 recap from across the pond that was posted at TLC:

http://www.digitalspy.com/cult/a156869/losts-fifth-season-the-verdict.html

Lots of funny lines, including this one: "'X-Filesitis' is a disease that occurs when a programme disappears up its own backside by becoming too embroiled in its own, often impenetrable mythology and seeks to answer questions with more questions."

X-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Yea, like Brother Campbell, Richard Malkin has been a bit overlooked, considering their importance. It really just came to me that Malkin and Miles had the same kind of back story, the first one where they admit having powers, the second saying to someone that they were fake. Capcom, you make a good point in light of what we know about Miles. Both can deny their powers whenever they please, and Malkin might have seen something much worse than Aaron being with Jack and Kate. Something bad enough to just stopping being psychic altogether.

I hope this thread continues. And Big! If you still see this, I forgot to say that I spit water on my screen when I read "No soup for you!"

Greg Tramel said...

this is an interesting idea

"Locke turning the Wheel was likely the cause of the statue to fall....the Wheel also caused the Island to move and possibly scoop up a certain ship that we saw floating in the water near the Island. The next time we see the Black Rock (assuming that the ship is the Black Rock) it was in the middle of the jungle."

when the statue fell

synchrobrarian said...

several bloggers rewatching lost this summer

dj said...

- What proof does everyone have that Ajira 316 went back in time? I keep hearing that it left in 2008 but ended up back in 2007. Could someone please tell me exactly where this comes from?

- I'm convinced based on what I've seen that the MiB is also the Smoke Monster... I don't think we're dealing with two entities. When Ben flushed the Muddy Toilet, Smokey didn't show up because he was in Flocke Form. When Ben went to the Temple to be judged, you see Flocke, Smokey, Falex, and Flocke. No one at the same time. All "smoke" and mirrors to make Ben do exactly what MiB wants. No, this is isn't conclusive or anything, but I think we may be complicating things.

- Richard being a younger version of the MiB? They do perhaps look a little similar, I'll give you that, but one of the neat things about Richard is that for whatever reason, he doesn't age. Uh? ;) But that aside, I think others nailed it already when they posited that Richard was Magnus Hanso or his First Mate (I lean towards the latter right now) and Jacob chose him to fulfill a special role, since the Black Rock's arrival seemed to be the beginning of another cycle in whatever has been going on on the Island for so long. Richard, unlike Flocke (and even ..err Fristian), doesn't seem so... evil. I admit that Richard does seem to be 'bout as dumb as a brick in light of recent events, but I'm hoping that gets turned around once we learn EVERYTHING about him.

dj said...

- Oh, forgot... Why does everyone keep saying Miles is a fake and a liar like Malkin? I was under the impression that Miles is, uh, pretty real. As in he does have a power. Sure he lies sometimes but the power is actually there regardless. Malkin, on the other hand, is always lying.

Capcom said...

Great points and questions DJ! As for the 2007 island time, in the flashbacks and forwards on the island after the 316ers arrived, TPTB kept putting "30 years earlier/later" up on the screen, so 1977 + 30 years ends up being 2007, which did confuse everyone as to why only they went back in time only one year. Somewhere, either here or on TLC blog, someone proposed, or found, why that happened, but I forgot what that was. I think that it has something to do with the "unpredictability" that Mrs.H told Jack about if he couldn't get the return to exactly repeat the conditions of 815's "landing". I'll try to find that. Maybe the MIB had something to do with that, since he needed Deadlocke's body for his plan???

On Lostpedia at the timeline (( http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline )) they post the events that happened after 316 arrived, and it's all listed as 2007, as to Sun, Frank, et.al.

Looking at these two separate timelines: "2005 and beyond - Chronology of events taking place off the island after the rescue of the Oceanic Six." ...and... "Post-return timeline, chronology of events on the Island after Ajira Airways Flight 316 lands," it's weird to think that off-island things were happening to the O6 at the same time as some of them were back on the island in that year. As if, there were two Suns in 2007, the one in Korea with JiYeon and chasing Widmore, and also the one on the island after the crash. Strange.


As for Miles, I haven't seen where everyone is saying that he's a fake, but when he went to the lady's house who wanted him to talk to her boy, he faked some of it and charged her more, and then had second thoughts about it and gave some money back to her. I forget the details of all that. I believe that he actually has powers, that was mostly confirmed in the Miles-concentric ep.

It's also thought that Malkin did have some actual visions of Claire in one of her last visits, and that's one reason why he got so upset. I guess that it was kind of like the Woopie Goldberg character in the movie "Ghost"....a faker who had then a real visitation....maybe Jacob touched Malkin??? :o)

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Greg Tramel said...

JB, TBTB have said the 316 passengers were in 1977 and 2007 hence the 30 years later caption

BUT there may be some question as to what year the 316 took off, 2008 or 2007? i can't remember if it was verified or not, i vaguely remember wayne mentioning a date on a ticket, i think


Nikki Stafford says this

dj said...

I know this is a bit gruesome and probably entirely inappropriate, but the news of the Air France flight "disappearing" over the Atlantic... well, you know I am too into LOST because what was the first thing I thought? Then of course I got realistic and started feeling really awful for those 228 people. But I still am a bit freaked by my first reaction...

Greg Tramel said...

and i don't think Malkin ALWAYS lied, i think he did see something with Claire and think Miles does have abilities

reminds me of this as an alternative to a FLocke(MIB) vs FLocke(Jacob) in season 6

"I believe Miles has a very specific role on the Island that he has to fulfill: he has to speak to the body of Locke, which is why our Ghost Whisperer was brought to the Island all along.)"

here is the link to the whole article, worth reading IMHO

Lost: Back to the Old House, Part 2

Capcom said...

As per Lostpedia, 316 left for Guam in January 2008. But I'm too lazy to follow the leads to see how or where they got that info, or from which episodes exactly.

Greg Tramel said...

works for me, maybe wayne will chime in about the plane ticket date (or i'm completely remembering something that did not happen happen)

i think they had to go back in time so there are "2 Lockes" but in this case both are on the island (hence the loophole)

Greg Tramel said...

postmodernism in action, read the customer reviews

BordersTarget

Capcom said...

Bwahahahahaha! That's perfect, thanks for passing it on.

And also freaky, I was just thinking about doing a search online for some blue enamelware for camping! :-o

Greg Tramel said...

maybe it comes in blue

i'm receiving your thoughts loud and clear

Jon G said...

I just had a thought about Faraday's comments about how the humans are the variables, and are therefore able to change things. As we discovered, it would appear that he was wrong. But if what if he wasn't ENTIRELY wrong? What if the only true variables are Jacob and/or his nemesis? What if those are the only two beings who can change things? Or perhaps Desmond is the only real variable.

Greg Tramel said...

by change things i suspect you mean variables going back into the past and change things

which reminds me, i was wondering if MIB disguised as Jacob went back in time to give each of our losties a touch instead of it being flashbacks

i'd say most lilely not but anything is possble i suppose with jacob and his nemiseis

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Greg and Capcom, AND dj, I simply believe that Ajira 316 took off in 2007 and landed in 2007. The plane never went back in time because we just jumped past the flashfoward episodes. Lostpedia simply lists January of 2008 because whomever wrote that info was going (I can only assume) by the time frame of "The Life And Death of Jeremy Benthem." (And let me again say that I think those who write for Lostpedia are fantastic in what they do for us fans.)

Greg, it wasn't a ticket, it was Benthem's obituary. Again, this comes from, I believe, DARK UFO, the page itself, the LA Times with the fake obit was something like March? April? 16, 2007. OK, granted they were obviously filming that scene in early 2007 and used a real newspaper. But I've never really understood why the show jumped from early 2007 to January 2008 with any real reference on the show. Seriously, everything that happened happened before Benthem died. Hurley seeing Charlie, Kate and Jack splitting up. I suppose the only argument is Jack popping Oxys and getting all bearded, but that could happen fairly quickly PLUS explain why Jack wasn't going through withdrawal hours after Ben flushed the pills away. I can't see the producers making a sliding timeline like they do in comics, e.g., Superman showing up during the Bush administration whereas JFK appeared with him in several issues back in the 60s. Goofy example, I guess, but there you go, dj.

Its not why does everyone think Ajira bounced back a year, its why they think that it was Jan of 08. I'm not siding with the basis of the LA Times clipping, I'm just saying, really, where is it implicitly shown that a year had passed between Jack wailing "We have to go back" and them actually going back? For me, its 2007 and I'm happy with that.

Love the idea of Locke knocking over the statue by turning the wheel. There was that curious line between Ben and Sun when she asked him if the statue was there when he was little, he said no, she said but why should I believe you? and he said I guess you can't. If anything else, it was a cool bit of dialogue.

And dj, I was comparing Miles and Malkin by their related -centric episodes. Each appear in two, the first one they both seem legit (aside from what Capcom pointed out above), but in the second appearance of each, both Miles and Malkin try and distance himself from their ability. At best, Miles and Malkin are both morally ambiguous. At least, Miles was before he met his father.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Greg, kinda going with my pet theory plus our new knowledge about Jacob, I think the variables are the 06, but Jacob was cheating a bit (really, he was) by touching thrm, in effect moving them like chess (or backgammon) pieces.

Greg Tramel said...

des is the constant instead of the variable, lol

but yes, i think des STILL has an important role to play and maybe this is a clue

jacob getting pushed into the fire made us think about a phoenix so i think we need to go back to look at what is on des's shirt in the “see you in another life brotha” scene

btw, this is THE scene that got me hooked on lost

phoenix on des’ shirt? why?

Greg Tramel said...

wayne, the only problem i see with both 316 groups NOT going back in time is that means the richard getting the bullet out of locke's leg scene happened in future time LATER than when locke transported to tunisia which to me seems like an issue but maybe not

Greg Tramel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Richard can still pull the bullet from future Locke's leg, Greg. There is no real referential point, obituary or episode air time, that states when Locke arrived in Tunisia and then went on to contact the 06 and get killed by Ben. They do flash the 30 Years Later/Earlier bit, but if it is June in 1977, is it June (or later) in 2007? Goes with my thoughts that the show remained in 2007, at one point (in 2007) we saw Jack's flashforward, then we passed that in real time, I've just accepted that everything was playing out in 2007. Sometimes I post w/o checking, but does it specifically state (or does Widmore tell Locke) when Locke appears in Tunisia?

No doubt that Phoenix shirt meant something from the beginning. Everything does with this show.

Capcom said...

Re: Bentham's obit -- unfortunately, TPTB later said (I think the during the hiatus after that season) that the obit is not true to the story details or canon and that the details in it are not true. Which really sucketh the big one, and made lots of fans very P.O.'d. Because why would TPTB put info like that in there for us to see, knowing how infintessimal our interest is in the show, and knowing that we would disect every detail of that said obit??!! I don't know if in the final analysis the obit means anything or not (as per dates, info, whatever) except for the fact that JB died, because I got ticked off and ignored it after all that came out about it not being real. WTH?! :-p

I'll try to find out more about the Janurary 2008 thing.

Oh yeah, I remember your post on Des' shirt! :-o

Greg Tramel said...

those TPTB irk me sometimes

one of these days...Pow! Right to the MOON

anyway, if this is one of my favorite blog posts covering religion on lost

Holy Smoke

Jon G said...

What if Desmond is the constant AND the variable? He is both what anchors the time loop and the one who can change it?

I've been working on similarities between Lost and the Matrix, and one of the things I've been trying to figure out is who on Lost would be the equivalent of Neo. My bet right now is that it is Desmond. In the Matrix, Neo was the one who was bound by destiny (via the Path of the One) to perform a certain task. That task was to uphold the cycles as previous Ones had done before him, and maintain the status quo. Yet Neo left that path to create his own (the Path of Neo). And even though his free will choice to make his own destiny still ultimately led him to the same destination as the path made for him by the Machines, Neo's path was on his own terms and the result (the end of the cycles) was completely different and unforeseen.

A good analogy of Desmond's role as a variable would be when he saves Charlie's life. It was destiny that Charlie would die, but Desmond made that happen on his own terms and changed the outcome (alerting Widmore to the Island's location and to the rescue of the Oceanic Six via Penny's boat).

We've also seen how Desmond acts as a sort of anchor or constant, as people in his life have set him in place to be on the Island at a certain time so that he can save the world by turning the fail-safe key.

On a side note, I'm still confused why Eloise told Desmond that pushing the button would be the greatest thing he ever did. Seems to me that turning the failsafe key was the greatest thing he's ever done--so far, anyway.

Greg Tramel said...

yep, des is a pivotal character and hoping there is more to come involving him

i'm wondering if when he said see you in another life to jack if he was time traveling

on the jan 2008 issue, was there a date on anything when hurley was discharged from jail or when des was admitted to the hospital or when they were boarding 316?

wayne, your thinking all of this happened in 2007, right?

Capcom said...

Nice points guys.

Also good Q about the Hurley release. I asked about the 2008 date of departure at TLC and they also agree that it is pretty ambiguous, as well as the reference for assuming that date being iffy.

I'm leaving in a few minutes to check out a B-17 today, so I'll
investigate those Hurley papers, etc., after we get back.

One thing I don't get about Mrs.H insisting that Des do the failsafe is....if the Universe course-corrects, and Des doesn't turn the key when she wants him too, won't someone else just come along and push it? Hmm.

Jon G said...

I'm trying to piece together why Lostpedians (my new term for Lostpedia users, which includes myself) are thinking that Flight 316 left in 2008 and went back in time to 2007. After lots of fruitless searching I can't find a single piece of evidence to back up the 2008 date for the Ajira 316 flight.

The closest thing to proof that I could find was the date on Jeremy Bentham's passport, which was given to Locke by Charles Widmore. If you look at the picture at http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/d/d4/Locke-2-.jpg you can see that the date is 12/12/07. If you factor in all the places that Locke would have had to go before trying to commit suicide, then factor in the time it took for the following events that led up to the Ajira 316 flight, you could still end up with a date of 2007.

I think the main reason that some fans were thinking that it was in 2008 was because the Ajira website listed flights boarding on January 21st. But that was the date of the season premiere and may have been merely promotional in nature. Plus, I believe the Ajira website lists flights beginning in January 2009, not 2008.

I guess we'll need more info before being able to say for sure what's going on.

Anonymous said...

DJ - I just want you to know that you aren't alone in making a connection to LOST with the Air France flight. It's not everyday that a huge plane like that seems to disappear

Greg Tramel said...

seems like alot for locke to do in the 2 1/2 weeks after dec 12 but i guess it is possible, plus there were some days in there after the death of locke before flight 316

maybe it was christmas when jacob was pushed into the fire

Jon G said...

Capcom, great point about Eloise's concern about Desmond pushing the button versus the universe's ability to course correct. But we all know, as does Eloise, that it's possible to make changes even with the whole course-correcting aspect to time. Desmond has proven that already with Charlie. But here's the $64,000 question: what if one of those changes was so massive that it killed all humanity? How does the universe course-correct for that?

But that's not the only wrinkle to this mess. Desmond's consciousness went back in time to 1996 right at the moment he turned the failsafe key. If he changed his actions in 1996, would there be IMMEDIATE repercussions in the future, such that the universe would not have time to course-correct? Even though it would seem like the universe would have eight years to course-correct between 1996 and 2004, perhaps the nature of Desmond's time skip makes it an immediate change to both 1996 and 2004.

Perhaps with Desmond there are certain things that happen in his past whose effects are stalled until years later. When Faraday tells Desmond to contact his mother, the memory doesn't surface until three years later. When Desmond time skips, it is between 1996 and 2004, as if there was no time gap between these two dates. For Desmond, the time skips are immediate. Perhaps if Desmond were to have married Penny and not go to the Island, the universe in some strange way would not have time to course correct. I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but it does in my muddled brain.

Greg Tramel said...

there's this but it is from lostpedia but i THINK i remember jack saying this to ben

"Jack, still apparently drunk and high, drives to the funeral parlor after hours. He breaks in and approaches the casket, noticing that no one has yet signed the release form for Bentham's body. Ben suddenly enters the room. Jack says that Bentham had told him Ben was off the Island, Jack and Kate having spoken to Bentham about a MONTH prior."

There's No Place Like Home

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Thanks, Greg. I knew that, at least in the case of Jack, it had been longer. I can't imagine seeing Locke talking with everyone in a few days time. That does bring into account the passport date, which would then bring his visit to Dec 07-Jan 08. I guess the question now is, why does anyone think that the Ajira people think its 2007? What I said before holds true, why would it show Thirty and 1/2 years later. Certainly, the timeline could be less sloppy.

Jon G, re: Des & Penny. He met her when he worked at the monastery, after being let go. Brother Campbell let him go for boozing it up, he met Penny that day. On his desk, there is a photo of Brother Campbell and Eloise Hawking.

Greg Tramel said...

so is it settled that des in the hsopital from ben's gunshot happened in 2008?

wayne, i still think they had to time travel back to 2007 in order for the loophole to work, i'll try to figure out a way to explain what i mean

Greg Tramel said...

this is another theory on how those touched by jacob had a previous connection to the island

"Jacob knew whom to touch because
these people are reincarnated versions of someone who
helped him, or loved him, or served him in the past"


alt.tv.lost

Jon G said...

Wayne, I had also seen that picture of Brother Campbell and Eloise Hawking on Lostpedia. Very interesting, eh? Did you mention it as a bit of trivia, or does it have relevance to something I'd said earlier? Also, I'm not sure if anybody believes that the Ajira folks have any clue that they've traveled back in time.

And it looks like it's true about the reference to Jack's conversation with Bentham being a month prior to Jack opening Locke's casket. Here is the exact conversation, from http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/There%27s_No_Place_Like_Home,_Parts_2_%26_3_transcript


BEN: Hello, Jack. Sorry. Didn't mean to scare you. Did he tell you that I was off the island?

JACK: Yes, he did.

BEN: When did you speak to him?

JACK: About a month ago.


So if Bentham's passport was dated 12/12/07, then a month later would indeed be in January 2008. That being said, I think that settles it that Desmond being in the hospital definitely occurs in 2008.

Greg, very interesting theory about reincarnation. Do you think these are the same reincarnated people who ALWAYS helped him, perhaps in every cycle? Or perhaps he's picking one reincarnated person from each cycle who was the most helpful. And does it mean anything that most of them are known to have father issues? The only two that don't are Sayid and Ilana, but it's possible that they actually do and we just don't know it yet.

As for why you think the time travel back to 2007 is necessary for the loophole to work, I totally agree with you. My reason for believing it is that I hold to the idea that the time loop has "bookends", and for MIB to take advantage of the loophole, it has to be within the boundaries of the time loop. One of the bookends is the point in time where Ajira 316 flies into the Island's barrier. But that plane carries the corpse of the man that MIB needs to copy BEFORE the time loop ends (not so that he's ABLE to copy Locke, but so that people will BELIEVE that he's Locke). One of the reasons for this is because MIB needs to be there at the point in time where Richard hands Locke the compass--which happened BEFORE the time loop ended.

I've also wondered about whether or not someone was in control of the time skips and to what time period they brought people. If MIB isn't controlling these time skips, then he's at least taking advantage of them. For instance, if he knew when Locke would appear with a gunshot wound, he could make sure that he is there with Richard to give him the compass.

Greg Tramel said...

jon, not exactly what is in my head but the bookends model works for me

reincarnation fits in with the eastern religion and esoteric aspects of the show, mainly i just thought it was a interesting different approach than my notion of the losties family having spent time on the island, In the end I have no idea yet what their previous connections to the island is, just seems they had a previous connection to the island and contemplating a variety of possibilities

the Brother Campbell and Eloise Hawking photo was another black/white dichotomy

http://www.flickr.com/photos/76965273@N00/513469350/sizes/o/

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, guys. Jon, I was refrencing Brother Campbell a few times recently, and was following up one of your recent comments. I think the point about 2008 came up when someone discussed Des & Penny being in 2008 with the plane in 2007. I just like being devil's advocate, the whole thing about where is it implicite blah blah blah. But I then mentioned somewhere above about just what you and Greg are discussing, that the only logical reason for the plane to jump back such a short time would be that Jacob needed them (well, Ben and bad Locke) in 2007. I guess I never factored in Locke dying in 2008, and THAT is the deciding factor. But it still behooves me...I mean, I'm a writer, I get called on stuff by editors and my agent over things like this. Wouldn't it have been less confusing to have Benthem die in 2007, or will this loophole thing become clear in S6, the 2007/8 thing. Maybe there's a metaphor in the loophole taking at least 170 years to be woven but only a few weeks/months to be sewn shut. Or something like that. (Yea, me good writer, me am).

And I totally agree re: the time skips, and I'll bet when Miles points out the back of the statue, MIB and Jacob are watching the Black Rock on the horizon. I want to think that MIB and Jacob both control them, because Jacob knew MIB would one day kill him, and maybe nudged things along.

synchrobrarian said...

i can't remember, did anybody talk about the dog on the hieroglyph

new god

Jon G said...

I'm reading the Lostpedia "Lost Rewatch" blog pertaining to the pilot episode (at http://blog.lostpedia.com/2009/05/lost-rewatch-1x01-pilot-part-1.html), and I got to the part where it stated that the murder of Oceanic 815's pilot by the Smoke Monster was senseless. It didn't even appear that it took the time to judge him.

I thought about it for a second, and remembered that Frank Lapidus was supposed to be the pilot of that plane. Was the Smoke Monster perhaps angry to find someone on the Island that wasn't supposed to be there? This might explain its reaction to Keamy's men--people that aren't "authorized" to be on the Island.

Capcom said...

Good work JG! And yes to all of it. I had forgetten about the Ajira flight schedule, especially via the non-ARG. But as you say, that would be in 2009, and the ARG was saying that we'd be "on" the flight with them after we signed up to the reconsituted DI (snicker). Not that I believe that's supposed to go exactly with the show, I don't at all, it just adds more to the confusion. :-o

I also like your Q about, what if one of the changes was massive. Nice thought to chew on, hmmm. But also remember that according to TPTB, Des only went back to 1996 mentally not corporeally, or something like that. ???

Also, his memoroy of Daniel did not actually have to happen 3 years later, if we consider the Kerr theory of concentric time-shells. Des could have gotten the "memory" immediately after Dan told him passing across laterally, if they were existing "parallel" across the time shells.

If we didn't find out about the time it took Locke to visit people (great work GT!) I would have thought that Abbadon was just a VERY fast driver, heheh. :o)

Oh wow Wayne, I love the thought of Jacob and MIB talking while the LBs are briefly gawking in disbelief at the statue before they skip off again! :-D

Good point about the pilot JG, I like it. That whole thing has been a point of much blog discussion since it happened, and what you say makes a lot of sense.

Great comments everyone!

FWIW, here are my photos of the B-17 yesterday: http://testerpix.blogspot.com/ I had to take them in lowish-rez because I was running out of disk space, but I think that maybe I got some enjoyable tight abstract shots? I like avionic rivets. :-)

Greg Tramel said...

ryan is doing a nice little light vs dark series


Zap2Lost

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Well, guess I'll see you on the next post. I'll keep checking up here for a bit.

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 314 of 314   Newer› Newest»