Wednesday, April 08, 2009

Thoughts on Dead Is Dead...

The County of Los Angeles rates the cleanliness of restaurants using letter grades. "A" is the best, or at least the cleanest, but I often joke that "B" is for burritos, my all-time favorite food. After the delicious combination-plate of revelations in Dead Is Dead, I think we need to create a new grade of "M" for mythology where Lost is concerned. Highlights included Charles Widmore's usurpation and exile, Ben's judgment by Zombie Alex, and solid confirmation of the Island's suspected connection to Anubis. Mmmm... mythology!



Let's begin with Anubis, whom we saw depicted as both statue and relief. In my recap of LaFleur, I noted that the ancient Egyptians believed this jackal-headed deity to be responsible for weighing the hearts of souls seeking entrance to the underworld. What I didn't mention is how Anubis fed hearts that failed the test to the demoness Ammit, whose name means "devourer of the dead." (Taweret fans take note: Ammit is sometimes linked with your favorite fertility goddess!) Notice how Anubis seems to be feeding something to the demonic figure in the relief.



The figure being fed resembles a snake or dragon, albeit jagged like a lightning bolt. Ammit occasionally takes the form of a serpent, but she's more commonly depicted as a chimera of crocodile, lioness, and hippo -- hence the Taweret connection. For this reason, I wonder if the relief figure is actually Apep, another demonic eater of the dead in Egyptian mythology. Apep lived in the underworld and is usually depicted as a snake. Of particular relevance, Apep is closely linked with darkness, lightning, and whirlwinds -- I've previously described the Smoke Monster as a cloud capacitor like a lightning cloud.



So, is the relief figure -- and, by extension, Smokey -- Ammit, Apep, or some mixture of the two? It's tempting to conclude the latter since the two demons share certain characteristics (i.e., eating souls and living in the underworld) but no ancient Egyptian would have conflated them. Despite her appetite for the dead, Ammit was seen as a force for goodness and divine order. Apep, by contrast, personified pure chaos and all that was evil to the Egyptians. Whether Smokey is Ammit or Apep, therefore, seems to depend on whether it's a force for good or evil.



To help decide that last question, let's consider Ben's judgment by Zombie Alex. When Ben revealed that he had returned to be judged for his daughter's death, I was pretty sure Smokey would take her form. The whirlwind of images that surrounded Ben in Wizard of Oz fashion seemed to confirm that his relationship with Alex was the subject of Smokey's inquiry. But when she actually appeared, Zombie Alex didn't seem very interested in Ben's apologies. She was much more intent on ensuring that he followed and refrained from killing John Locke.



I was reminded of Mr. Eko's fatal encounter with Zombie Yemi. Both scenes are ostensibly about atonement for sins committed against loved ones whose form Smokey takes. In both cases, however, I can't shake the suspicion this repentance is really about compelling the sinner's submission to Smokey -- the rest is just a convenient ruse. Smokey seems to have a plan and doesn't take kindly to insubordination. During Ben's exchange with Zombie Alex, I half expected her to echo Yemi's line and warn: "You speak to me as if I were your daughter!"



And that raises another relevant question: Was Ben supposed to exile Charles Widmore from the Island? There are hints throughout the episode, particularly Ben saving baby Alex, that Widmore wasn't completely in sync with the Island's wishes either. It seems, moreover, that Charles led the Others during the Purge and their occupation of the Barracks. I'm starting to suspect it was one or both of those decisions that triggered his exile. Dharma may even have operated with the blessing of the Island, which is why the Room 23 film includes the line "God loves you as He loved Jacob."



Here, in the spirit of Herb Caen, are some three-dot thoughts on Dead Is Dead:

JACOB WANTED IT DONE. When Charles admonished Richard for saving little Ben, Richard answered that the Island chooses who it chooses. The suggestion, later confirmed by Charles, is that the Island saving little Ben was not a foregone conclusion. That it did so indicates that Ben was indeed special and not merely some mistake as I've sometimes wondered... I let out a lusty BOO(urns)! when little Ben confirmed that he didn't remember being shot or rescued. Charles tells him not to worry -- that he'll be back with his father soon enough. But how will they explain little Ben's absence and miraculous recovery? Even if Ben doesn't remember the wound, Roger certainly will... Charles also mentions that little Ben can still be one of them even if he's living with Dharma. I wonder if there are other Others living among the Dharmies. Like Lantz Dogg, I've got my eye on Amy as a possible double agent, which could explain her willingness to give up Paul's body...

I CAME BACK TO BE JUDGED. I'm still torn over whether Ben actually lied about the "rules" prohibiting him from returning to the Island. Locke accused him of lying, and Ben eventually admitted he was really there to be judged for Alex's death. But later we learn that Charles Widmore has been trying to return for some 20 years since he was exiled for breaking the rules... Ben's comment that his people don't have a word for the Monster reminds me of religious proscriptions against speaking the true name of God. For example, people sometimes mistakenly assume that Jehovah or Yaweh is God's actual name. In fact, such names are simply the pronunciation of JHVH, YHVH, and YHWY, which were letters used by the authors of the Old Testament to symbolize the sacred and incommunicable name of God... When Locke mentions he was just "hoping for an apology," his look reminded me of the character Stanley's hilarious expressions on the Office.

I DON'T REALLY REMEMBER HIM FROM THE PLANE. I loved how Ben stoked Caesar's paranoia over infiltration, which harkened back to Ethan and Goodwin's infiltration of the tail section and fuselage camps... Ethan wanting to kidnap baby Alex was another eery parallel to events we've seen -- i.e., his kidnapping of Claire... Wise move by the writers having Ben take Alex at night, which explains why crazy Danielle didn't recognize him many years later when they met again. I can buy that memory lapse more than I can her implausible failure to recognize Jin... I half expected Caesar to mutter "et tu, brute" when Ben shot him... I wonder if Caesar is really dead. It's possible but my suspicion is that Zombie Christian still has work for him to do... Does Caesar know John McCain? Because he sure shares the same verbal tick of calling everyone "my friend"...

WHAT WAS I SUPPOSED TO DO? When Charles sent Ben to kill Danielle, was the former trying to taint the latter in the eyes of the Island? The look of disapproval that Richard gives Charles makes me think killing baby Alex was not something the Island wanted. I was reminded of Ben's attempt to taint Locke with the murder of Anthony Cooper. Indeed, Ben presenting Alex to Charles paralleled the way Locke presented Cooper's body to Ben... There seems to be a repeating cycle where someone is chosen by the Island, but falls out of its good graces, then is usurped by a new chosen one. That's what seems to have happened to both Charles and Ben. I wonder if Locke will face the same temptation to deviate from the Island's agenda in Season 6. Perhaps he will realize that he's being used for some nefarious purpose and turn on the Island...

YOU DON'T HAVE THE FIRST IDEA WHAT THIS ISLAND WANTS. The Risk game they were playing when Keamy and Co. attacked is still where they left it on the table. So any butterfly effect on the Barracks didn't change things all that much... They made a point of emphasizing the painting of the blonde woman in Ben's house yet again. Unfortunately, my prediction about it being Juliet is probably wrong. After all, how can little Ben have a crush on her when he doesn't remember her being part of the Dharma Initiative? And while we're on the subject of amnesia again, BOO(urns)! ...What's with Lapidus looking like Siegfried and Roy with the unbuttoned shirt? Ben claims that his house is the only place he knows to summon the Monster. But he obviously must know about the Temple -- that's where he sent the Others when Keamy and Co. invaded the Island. Why didn't Ben just proceed there directly? ...How bizarre was that method of summoning the Monster? If there's some larger significance, it's eluding me...

YOU CAME HERE TO GLOAT. Ben says that Charles was the one who wanted Alex dead, the latter smugly replies that, if the Island wants her dead, she'll be dead. I think the implication is that the Island wanted Alex to live originally. That's why Ben was so convinced that he would be judged for his culpability in her murder. What Ben failed to realize is that the Island only wanted Alex to live long enough to serve some purpose in its plan. Once she had done so, she was free to "go now" like Michael on the Freighter. At that point, the Island didn't care whether she lived or died, which is why Zombie Alex wasn't particularly concerned about Ben's culpability in her murder... Ben tells Charles that he's being exiled, in part, because he left the Island regularly, but that's something Ben apparently did himself as leader of the Others... Widmore warns "you cannot fight the inevitable," yet another reminder of Lost's fatalistic theme...

DEAD IS DEAD. It's hard to figure out where Ben's lies end and the truth begins. But I think he was dealing in the latter when he told Sun that dead is dead and insisted that Locke's resurrection was unprecedented. After all, we've seen no indication that the Others can be resurrected. Death seems as final to them as it is for everyone else on the Island. No effort was made to reclaim Ethan or Goodwin's corpses, and they immolated Colleen's body in a funeral pyre. That makes me wonder if Locke's resurrection is related to Zombie Christian and Yemi's -- i.e., the result of body snatching by Smokey. I was struck by the way Locke disappeared during Ben's encounter with Zombie Alex. I wonder if that has something to do with why the Monster didn't appear in the Barracks. Maybe it needed to leave Locke's dead body to judge Ben, and the Temple was the only place that could be done safely... Interesting that the chamber where Ben gets judged was apparently one he'd never seen. I'll be very curious to see how it compares with the Temple above...

WHAT LIES IN THE SHADOW OF THE STATUE? My first thought was that the Wheel Well lies in the shadow of the four-toed colossus. As a number of you noted, however, the question may be a code like "what does one snowman say to another?" In that regard, I wonder if the answer is "Ozymandias" in reference to the Horace Smith poem of the same name, which begins "In Egypt's sandy silence, all alone, Stands a gigantic Leg, which far off throws, The only shadow that the Desert knows." ...Ilana and her buddies didn't seem the least bit interested in Ben, which tends to suggest they don't work for Widmore. What if they work for Dharma? It will be interesting to see if any of them hail from Ann Arbor, Michigan... I'll bet there's a big drill in that metal crate, which Ilana and Co. will use to access the Wheel Well.

ONE LAST THING. If Desmond does die, it's possible that Our Mutual Friend will indeed be the last thing he ever reads -- on the side of his sailboat. I wonder if getting shot will be what drives him back to the Island. After all, I can think of no better place to recover from a gunshot wound...

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!

84 comments:

KoreAmBear said...

Amazing that you guys on the east coast have already seen it. It's only 3:04 pm here in Hawaii. We're 6 hours behind east coast time. This provides for really early Saturday mornings during college football season. Even worse in catching the morning Premiere League game -- basically I can watch around midnight Friday night and go to sleep. Hope it was a good one!

Capcom said...

Oh no Koreambear! Wow. All I can say is wow. Very satisfying indeed. I think that you will enjoy it very much when it makes it to your part of the world. :-D

KoreAmBear said...

Thanks! It's still only 5:21pm da local (I mean local) kine time. I have no idea why I clicked on here. I could have really been spoiled bad. OK, you guys are safe to post, I am only going to check in after I watch tonight's ep.

KevJones said...

That was wicked awesome.

What lies in the shadow of the statue? I would very much like to know how she knows anything about the island, nevermind such a nifty riddle.

I'm really hoping that they flash back in time to explain the statue and all the Egyptian hieroglyphs that were under the Temple. My most pressing inquiry is this; why was Anubis making an offering to Smokey in the hieroglyphs?

Anonymous said...

So that settles it for me, the island is somehow connected to the Underworld and being judged...I am now solidly in the camp that the statue was/is Anubis.

And so glad Ben didn't kill either Desmond or Penny...I just want a little sunshine and happy endings in my Lost...

Questions...

Why could Alex touch Ben?

Where did Iliana come up with "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" Was it something she read in Ben's office?

And so funny that Ben has to follow Locke now!

LostPDX

Anonymous said...

And a few other comments and questions...

Why was Ethan spared and taken in after they killed the Dharmites? Are babies born on the island safe because, in effect, they are Others because their origin is the island? Or is it only babies conceived and born on the island that are safe?

Why then did successful pregnancy become impossible later? And what does this mean for Aaron?

I think this was one of the best episodes yet...

LostPDX

neoloki said...

Lostpdx, all those questions I believe we will have to wait until next season to get answers.

Smokey took the form of Alex thus she can touch him.

Illiana is part of another group and her riddle was way to similar in function to smells like carrots to be a coincidence. Can you say present day Dharma.

Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

Good Morning Everyone!

Any time an episode is focused around my buggy eye Ben, it’s all good. Rambling thoughts:

• While Ben is a ruthless killer, he isn’t all bad. Twice because of a child, someone’s death was prevented. This is the first time we’ve seen Ben be as truthful as he possibly could. I also think from here on out, Ben isn’t in the driving seat.

• Speaking of driving, this is probably the first time in a while that I actually liked and respected Locke. It’s as if he woke up with newfound knowledge AND confidence. I think I like this new John Locke. In addition, the acting between Locke and Ben was on point. Look forward to see more interaction between the two.

• Someone please clarify. The scene that Ben took Alex was after the purge, correct? The scene with Ben and Ethan – did Ethan somehow defect to the side of ‘the hostiles’ before the purge?

• While I don’t think elder Widmore is being completely honest, it appears that some of his story is appearing to be true. Every time Widmore and Ben interacted, I kept thinking back to last season when Widmore tells Ben, ‘I know what you are, Boy!’

• When Widmore was being escorted off the island, it appears that it was because he put his needs before the island. I thought it was interesting it was through the submarine. I had in my mind that the sub was more for show, than actually used. For some reason I, thought Widmore turned the wheel. Also (another clarification, please), didn’t Widmore say, in a previous episode, that he was ‘tricked’ into leaving the island?

• I’m extremely happy that Ben didn’t kill Penny. I think that would have been the last straw for me with my love of all things Benjamin Linus.

• When Ben fell though the floor and was in a deeper cavern, I got the impression that he didn’t know it existed. Even though he was allowed to live, I thought it finally sunk in, that he was out of favor, when he was told not to harm Locke.

• Also, can we talk about how he summoned ‘Smokey’ back in Dharmaville? And why did it remind me of flushing toilets? (lol)

• Ben being judged by Smokey, similar to Eko?

• Caesar being shot like that didn’t see that one coming. Also thinks he’s not dead.

• Is it safe to safe that Ileana and a few others are working for Widmore? AND is this the start of the ‘war’ that’s being referred to?

That’s all I have now. Just wanted to get my thoughts down while fresh in my head. As usual, looking forward to the interesting comments. Wishing everyone a GREAT day.

mary said...

AWESOME! Now the REAL lost is back. This felt like season #1. No soap operaish love triangles just pure LOST drama.

I noticed a lot of half dark /half lit faces. I don't think that is coincedence. Again with the good vs evil.

The smokey rerun scene of Ben's life was a bit Wizard of Ozish to me.

Locke has finally come into himself (I guess dying does that)

Ben..as an actor rocks it. (john too)

neaux said...

In many seasons of white vs black, light vs dark..

its pretty wild to see Locke Sporting a mighty GRAY button down shirt.

DakranII said...

Looks like a Ceasar storyline is out the window. The location and quickness of his death makes me think it was final.

Also, nice rug Ben had on his head. Was that supposed to make him look younger? :-P

And, Desmond was shot, but looked okay when he was beating the crap out of Ben. I didn't notice a bullethole when he fell away after being shot, perhaps something in the groceries saved him? Or his specialness?

@Poohbear, I think Ben took Alex before the purge. The Others were hanging out in the jungle when he returned with her, and she was 16 in 04, with the purge being in 92. She would have been around 4 when it happened, if my times are right.

Lizzie said...

I think I would have been done with Lost completely if Desmond or Penny were killed. Kill off the Shannon's and the Boone's, but not my Des!

Did anyone believe Ben when he seemed surprised that Sun's "friends" were in the Dharma Initiative?

JLes said...

Wow...amazing episode. That's the type of LOST episode that I really love. Fewer love triangles, more answers...

I've really enjoyed everyone's comments, and I'm sure i'll have more, but I'd like to note the following thought I had...

I was VERY suprised to see how Ben ended up stealing Alex. I've been waiting to see how that scene went down, and I never suspected that she would give her up with almost no fight. Seriously, she's on an island, alone, with her baby... WHAT ELSE DO YOU HAVE TO LIVE FOR ROUSSEAU!?! Equally as shocked that she never beat the p*ss out of him when she "captured" him in the net in Season 2. I feel like there's still a piece to this puzzle that we're missing.

Is anyone suprised by how that exchange went down?

Question 2: If Ben never killed Penny, why did he say "Tell Desmond Hume I'm sorry"? He looked LEGITIMATELY remorseful saying that, and that kinda confused me. What do you guys think?

Michael Emerson is a great actor.

aims said...

I wasn't as blown away by this episode as I have been with others this season... some of the "answers" we got seemed too easy, too wrapped up, too here's your answer. Seeing akward teenage Ethan and bad wig Ben was laughable along with Charles' bad perm. Do you think any of the Others are asking themselves "why doesn't Richard age, and where is the Maybelline consultant with all the eyeliner?!".

I was concerned that Ben killed Penny, and then concerned that Ben would kill/kidnap Charlie. What was in those groceries to block the bullet? Something about the way Ben told Sun to find Desmond Hume and tell him I'm sorry, makes me think he wasn't talking about sorry I shot your grocery bag... I have a bad feeling that something else happened after Ben got out of the water, he could still have killed Penny/kipnapped Charlies/done something horrifying that he needed to apologize for.

Illana's riddle did remind me of the snowman question, was it a way for them to find each other once they crashed, that they didn't know each other before, but were sent on a mission and that was the code to find the rest of the recruits. My thought (and I think someone else mentioned it) is that she is working with Widmore and this is the "war" that he mentioned was coming. What is in the container?

James said...

I'm still waiting for a true Henry Gale flashback story.... That must've been one crazy hot-air balloon ride down! My bet is that Faraday somehow gets our 77er's back in the present. I wonder how Locke will fit into this. Why didn't Ben press the matter more when Sun mentioned Christian? Also, the way Lapidus' shirt was so unbuttoned...led me to believe something went down with him and Sun, but then that dissipated, guess he just likes to unbutton!

Temple wall/gate was awesome. It looked like Ben was reading those glyphs...can anyone do the same?

Anonymous said...

Lantz to the Dogg here.

Great Episode. Always a big fan of the episodes that advance the mythology of Lost. I was hoping that this episode would explain how young Ben was saved, but that is for another day / another time.
Some random thoughts:

One of the most telling quotes for me came from Charles Widmore assures a Young Benjamin that he can still be an “other” when living amongst the Dharma Initiative. I believe that Amy is an Other…which is why Ethan becomes an Other. It is hard to imagine that Benjamin Linus would be able to pull of The Purge without more inside help. As a side note, I enjoyed the spin on Jack’s cry from Season 3 “We have to go back!!!” as Young Ben looked at Charles and said, “I don’t’ want to go Back!” I also love how Ben and Charles age (younger and older) in flashbacks/flashforwards, but our boy Richard Alpert always looks the same.

The fact that Ben’s house has a doorway to the temple, and that this was not always Ben’s house, leads me to believe that the Dharma Initiative, for all the undertones of love and harmony, are in fact the BAD guys on Lost. One might object to Ben’s methods (but he lost his innocence), but he in fact was doing whatever he could to save the island. This lone fact is why he was sparred. He sacrificed “his daughter” to save the island, and the island forgave him for breaking the rules. I am starting to feel that “sacrifice” has a lot to do with the Island, in particular, those that the Island holds in favor. I am starting to believe that Jack’s destiny is to sacrifice himself for the good of the island / good of his fellow 815ers.

We have also been told that children are important on the Island. Did Ben’s saving of Alex put him on the fast track towards becoming their leader? Why couldn’t Charles kill the child? Did you notice the looks of approval that Richard Alpert gave to Ben as he saved Alex? Reminded of me of when John could not kill the Man from Tallahassee (his father), and how Richard Alpert seemed to think that was an endearing quality.

Did you notice how Ben stammered and stuttered when he saw young Charlie? He couldn’t do it (kill Penny) in front of the child. Is this due to the fact that he was abused as a child himself (a la Sawyer, who also stopped a long con when a child became involved), or are there deeper reasons?

Daddy Issues: Jack and Christian; Ben and Roger; John and The Man from Tallahassee; Desmond and Charles (albeit Father in Law); Miles and Dr. Chang; Hugo and Cheech.

Am I the only one that smiles when I hear Charlie’s name. So sweet…

Illana does not work for Charles Widmore, otherwise she would have known who Ben was. So who does she work for…was the entire Sayid snatch and grab a ruse?

Caesar? We hardly knew ya.

Finally, Ben must follow John Locke, for John Locke, much like Christian (and Claire for that matter) is the personification of the Island (via Smoke Monster). This is how John knows where the monster is? He doesn’t know why, but he just does. But who now is the biggest threat to the island? Dharma is dead as Dead (except for John seeing Horace building his cabin). Is it Ilana (who is behind her?)
There are a couple of parallel plot lines at this point: will we be privy to a Penny/Desmond reunion a la Sun/Jin as part of the plot line to reunite the 815ers in present day? Or when (and by when, I mean when in so far much as 1970s or current day?) and the plotline to save the island (from whom?) Where will these plotlines intersect (in time space)?

Anonymous said...

What is in the metal case they are trying to bring over there, and maybe Illana is Richards replacement.

Gareth said...

Great comments from everyone, I must admit I'm not really that adept at Ancient Egyptian mythology so I can't really comment on the temple and the meaning of it all. However, as one poster states it's interesting how Widmore says to Ben "I know what you are, boy" - This to me implies that Ben is something different to an average other. Was he the first one to be saved in the Temple? And in doing so has his soul been altered or is he even indeed still human? (long shot I know, but it just seems that Widmore emphasizes the fact)

Like I said at the start of the post I know little about Ancient Egyptian Mythology but the picture that Ben saw with Smokey and Anubis didn't look all that 'good' to me, it looked like they were making a pact and lets be Honest, Smokey doesn't exactly personify something that 'looks' good and righteous, at least not in my minds eye.

At this stage I presume we are going to find that Richard is directly linked to the temple and whatever it is that it stands for. It is really interesting that for a show so modern and often stepped in pop-culture that we could ultimately see the founding layers of the show hark back to such 'grand' times in history, is Richard really RA?

Aaron said...

Rethinking Smokey: Not only did the glyph show Anubis or whoever making an offering to Smokey, but the area around the grate in the floor was stained with blood, indicating that this used to be an altar where the ancient inhabitants of the island made sacrifices to it.

That raises the possibility that, rather than a mere security system, Smokey is an entity that a) was not created by these ancient people but preexists them and b) was a godlike entity that they worshipped.

Which hints that Smokey's maybe been hanging out for millennia waiting to resurrect its people, to find new hosts, after they were killed off by the volcano.

What exactly it wants and what the limitations are to its power remain unclear.

Jason said...

Ben was apologizing to Desmond for even attempting to kill Penny. Looks like Ilena (or however it's spelt) are maybe the island's original ORIGINAL inhabitants come to take it back from the other who like to tell people they are the OGs. Is Richard perhaps a prisoner of these others waiting for someone to ask him what's in the shadow?

neoloki said...

I will mention this again and a little more fleshed out but Widmore has nothing to do with Illiana and her group.

Illiana being part of a Widmore group is just too obvious and Lost has already done that story. Do you really think they are going to set up a War that repeats the end of season 4? I doubt it strongly.

I think Illiana's group has something to do with Dharma. The symmetry for this season makes a lot of sense. But to go farther out on a limb, maybe Cheng and Faraday's message from the past, about the purge, made it to the future and into the hands of a modern day group related to Dharma (remember the half-ass ARG last fall with the modern Dharma logo's?) This seems to make sense on a larger plot scale, because the writers are not just going to let Dharma die in the past. They are to fundamental to the overall story.

Thus the coming war is going to be between the Others and modern day Dharma. This explains Widmore's desire for Locke to be on the Island when the war comes.

machramm said...

This ep lived up to my expectations.

I don't believe half of what Ben says.

I thought the pictogram on the chamber wall was really cool. It definitely depicts the smoke monster and Anubis, but it is unclear what they are doing. Some sort of pact? Some offering? Master and pet? lol

There are also some snakes and eye-shaped objects.

From what I have read, the snake usually signified evil.

Eyes in ancient Egypt could symbolize protection or destruction, offerings, and sometimes allowed the dead to see the living world.

Any more thoughts from someone more knowledgeable?

Anonymous said...

Methinks Ben's apology stems from divulging the name of Des' boat to Widmore. He knows that Des and Penny are no longer safe and anonymous from Widmore.

K

machramm said...

@Jason... That's an interesting train of thought. Maybe Richard is in some sort of holding pattern until he hears that phrase to "re-activate" something. Maybe he's been doing all he can to try to help the process along (helping Ben, Locke, etc.) because it's been so long.

JLes said...

@Jason & K:

I mean, really?!? Ben exterminated an entire group of people he grew up with in the Dharma Initiative, including his FATHER, and barely blinked, let alone showed any sign of remorse... Yet in this case he was almost brought to tears over his remorse for CONSIDERING killing Penny? REALLY!?! Maybe this will present itself later as good vs. bad people....but, I don't know.

"When you see Desmond Hume, tell him I'm sorry....for shooting his groceries."

....I just don't buy that.

DakranII said...

I'm guessing that Ben's apology might have bigger implications than the encounter on the dock. I wonder if he had any play in Desmond's three plus years on the island? Or turning the key? Or does have it some sort of relation to Desmond's "specialness" with time?

Desmond has been pretty tormented about his time spent on the island, not being able to get back to Penny. Maybe Ben realizes that and is sorry for keeping them apart? Keeping them from being the loving family he never had?

Although, I'd shed a tear over dead groceries. :-( Or are they really dead? I bet we'll see those groceries again in a future episode. Maybe we'll get a flashback for the groceries!!

JLes said...

Dakranll.... THAT'S the type of exegesis I was looking for. I think that potential reason makes far more sense.... I like it.

Capcom said...

Great commments everyone!

I wonder what the obvious answer is to this riddle, like the carrot was to the snowman? What would lie/lay in a shadow? Dirt? Grass? A snake? All I've gotten from the internet so far is that Bayonne, NJ lies in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty. :o)

When Widmore said "I know what you are boy", to me, I heard, "I know you're a backstabbing, ladder climbing, weasel who is capable of anything". But there's got to be more to it than that.

I guess what we were supposed to glean about Ben this time, is that although he can kill adults (men mostly?) whenever he feels like it, but when it comes to mothers and kids he gets all sentimental because of his history of being a kid with no mother. ???

KevJones said...

Illiana could be a part of the war that's coming, which would explain (in a better way) why she was on the plane with Sayid. Forgive my memory but did we ever find out who the Economist is? The story between illiana & sayid is eerily similar to that of Sayid and the other woman, from the episode The Economist.

Desmond did get hit in the right shoulder, then proceeded to whoop on Ben using the palm of his left hand only, Ben looked seriously hurt when he fell in the water and all that blood rushed out his nose. My first thought was that Des couldve killed Ben that way a la Nic Cage in Con Air :-p

KoreAmBear said...

I really don't have much to say except it was just a gnarly episode.

Now does Charlie Widmore circa 1977 look like Homer Simpson during his flashbacks?

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/wp-content/gallery/5x12/c-users-jeremy-videos-capture-snapshot-5x12_00011.jpg

http://www.mulletmadness.com/assets/images/if-homer-simpson.gif

Have we ever seen Widmore and Homer in the same room? I think not.

Widmore kind of looked like Ricardo Montaban as he was being banished from the island:

http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/wp-content/gallery/5x12/c-users-thad-pictures-lost-season-5-5x12-5x1200076.jpg

(btw, can these pics be embedded in my posts? Sorry that these sites are not hyperlinked.)

Also, Ben being surrounded by the smoke monster and then his life flashing before him, reminded of a scene from Ghostbusters, where they meet the monster at the top of the NYC high rise. Mix in Albert Brooks in Defending Your Life and voila.

Where was Tom in the Hostile campfire? Was he out looking for a Boar? Or was he in NYC at a Yankees World Series game with Arturo, where Reggie hits 3 home runs? How about that!

dw.bg said...
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Jenn said...

I think the most telling foreshadowing line of the show was when Ben and Sun were on the porch waiting for the monster. The trees began to rustle, Ben turned to her and something to the effect of, 'I can't control what comes out out of there' indicating where the monster would have appeared but it was John who walked out.

For some reason I have a feeling that will play into what happens when all the 815ers are reunited. John Locke won't be controlled - is that a good thing or a bad thing... I'm leaning towards a bad thing.

Anonymous said...

Come on BigMouth--it has been 2 days!!! We're waiting....

Anonymous said...

I'm wondering what is in that container. I have a few thoughts that maybe it is John's casket with body included. That could mean that he is the smoke monster doing a walkabout. But I kinda think he may be similar to a smokey entity but a different version and serving a different purpose. Much like Christian but with an opposite role.

On another thought. I once thought that Ben orchestrated all the 815er's getting on the plane to end up on the island. But since last weeks episode where R.A said he would not remember what happened and this weeks reveal to Ben of the photo of Sun's friends in '77' leads me to think of one person who could've known and remembered all those who were involved. That person would have to be Charles Widmore.


Mike

Anonymous said...

Mike:
Your theory on John's casket still being in the crate is amazing. Real mind blower.

The only thing that throws it into question is what happened to Christian's body? And then I think about how Richard wanted the body of Amy's husband to bring back to his people.

But I like where your head is at...

LantzDogg

Bigmouth said...

Sorry for the delay, you all everybody -- there was lots to process! The first part of the recap is finally up and I'll update it as soon as I can with three-dot thoughts.

KoreAmBear said...

Great stuff Biggy. You're a great resource for the LOST mythology, even better than Doc Jensen for this aspect. Too bad you don't get paid for it like does. :)

What do you think Yemi meant to Mr. Eko when he told Eko in a vision something like "these people are doing something very important here, help them." I'm still wondering what that was all about.

Greg Tramel said...

the glyph reminds me if this guy's musings on the brotherhood of the snake

SERPENTINE BLOODLINES

KoreAmBear said...

I'm sure there is a blog that's already done this somewhere but can someone confirm or revise some of the following time entries I have pegged:

c. (approx.) 1964 -- year Roger and Emily went hiking and Ben was born? (I say this because it has to be about 1974 or so when Roger makes it to Dharmaville, and Ben looks about 10?)

c. (approx.) 1974 (maybe earlier) -- Roger and Ben brought to the island (about the same time as when Sawyer, Miles, Jin and Juliet do their final time flash to 1974?)

c. 1988 -- Frenchies land on the island; I assume this is the year that Alex is born and therefore, since we are told that she is 16 in 2004, we can deduce this as 1988.

c. 1992 - purge. I don't have a citation for this. I don't recall how we know this date as the purge.

c. 1995-1996 - we know that Widmore is banished from the island when Alex is on the swing. She looks about 7-8?

Was there any date reference to when the "incident" happened?

When did Juliet come to the island?

Cy Huckaba said...

As far as Ben's judgement goes. It looks as if the island did want Alex dead. Smokey chronicled him saving her, but ultimately killing her with Keamy and that was why he was allowed to live. Am I off base here?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, everyone. Great comments all, great post, Big. KoreAmBear is right, and he's preaching to the choir to me, you've always been better than Doc Jensen, though I'll agree to enjoying his emails. (This is why, back in the day, I laughingly suggested you were an ABC exec or Nestor Carbonell...)

First, the toupees. Yes, they are bad, but has everyone really forgotten the days of the Dry Look and all that? I could almost see them asking for a photo of Emerson's HS yearbook photo, ha ha.

@LostPDX & LantzDogg, I assumed Ethan always was an Other, as he was working with Richard at Mittelos. Granted this was after the Purge, but I've just always had it in my head that he was brought up as an Other, he was so brutal and emotionless in S1.

@Poohbear, I , too, am glad to see Locke have more confidence now. I associate with him more than any other character because of my cerebral palsy (and baldness, no toupee here, ha ha). I've had many a day (e.g., the last three and counting...) where I felt like John in the Pearl with Eko, slamming his palm on the wall and talking about how he has always done the wrong things in his sad, pathetic life. One thing that has always surprised me is how close-mouthed he's been about once being in a wheelchair, other than to Rose, maybe he knows the Island wants to keep its secrets. And Widmore did say he was tricked into leaving the Island, but was that another tall tale? Ben is worse, but Widmore does lie, too. Maybe Eloise tricked him into leaving the Island, if that is indeed what happened.

neoloki, I want badly to see a Faraday flashback, and I hope they show the Chang video and how/if it gets transmitted to 2008. I kept thinking Faraday has been MIA since 1974, but he might've just been gone since right before the scenes in 1977, doing the pinhole video thing. Maybe that's what James meant when he just waved off where Faraday was, that he knew he was trying wacky remote viewing experiments.

KoreAmBear-Juliet arrived on the Island in the summer of 2001. The blast door map refers to an Incident in 1985. I always thought The Incident was The Purge. Bigmouth has mentioned he saw a script where it states 1992 as the date. This again leads me to believe that Bigmouth is indeed Nestor Carbonell.

Ilana's test question? Jacob's well is too easy. Jughead? Nope. Is it a trick question, like the snowman/carot one? I thought maybe a sundial of sorts, something aligned to 2012, which is doomsday for several old cultures, 2012=Valenzetti Equation in ancient Egypt? Or Iliana could have meant a statue of Tom, and the answer would be a plate of spam and that Italian dish KoreAmBear said was in Pasadena...

neoloki said...

I guarantee we will get a faraday flashback, but it won't be until just before the finale, if not the finale itself. Regardless, the ball is going to start rolling very fast towards the endgame of the season with a Miles centric episode next week. Cheng will be making an appearance and I am hoping we will get a clue of whats going on with Daniel. The comic-con video will not come up until the finale considering it deals directly with the incident.

80sPro said...

machramm - I agree with you. As soon as I saw the pictogram I assumed it was Annubis and Smokey. So I was surprised that others thought it was maybe Smokey and maybe related to Smokey. Me, I think it is Smokey for sure.

All good points everyone. So much to think about. There is lots of meat to sink our teeth into.

The biggest thing for me is....Ben NOT eeeeevil with 5 'e's? And now I do not think he is. I agree that Ben was sorry for TRYING to kill Penny, and I now think that Widmore is a baaad dude.

But who the heck is Richard? THAT is my new focus.

KoreAmBear said...

Did the purge necessarily happen before or after the Frenchies arrived on the island (1988)? We didn't really see any Dharmites with the Frenchies, right? But the others were still having campfire kumbaya sessions, so I'm thinking the purge hadn't happened yet. But it's inconclusive either way.

***Spoiler alert***

Wayne -- there is going to be a Faraday ep. this season. I saw filming at a local catholic girls' school that has been the setting for Oxford Collge. Danny Boy was in a graduation gown and congratulating him with a kiss was . . . Theresa.

lockerocks said...

Was anyone else reminded of the movie Ghost where the 'shadows' take the bad dude to hell during the 'Ben meets Smokey' scene?

This was THE best episode this season. Every commercial break left me anxious for the next scene.

PoohBear, I couldn't agree more with you about Locke. He is my favorite character and I think he's finally comfortable with what and who he is/has become, much like Sawyer has in Dharmaville.

Biggest mystery to me is this Illana chick. At first I thought she had to be connected to Widmore but after reading everyone's posts I am starting to doubt that. However, Sayid was the first one Widmore sent Locke to after he returned from the Island.

Speaking of returning from the Island, I was pretty sure that Widmore told Locke he knew about 'the exit' because that was where he ended up when he was exiled, but now it seems that is NOT how he knew about it. Hmmmm. . .

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@KoreAmBear, I somewhat agree with Bigmouth when he mentioned the 1992 Purge possibly getting retconned. The way things have always played out, it just seemed like the Others would have Purged much earlier, I can't imagine a 20 yr. co-existence when neither group seemed happy with the other.

Oh, and thx for the spoiler alert, though a Faraday episode (to me) isn't a spoiler, someone mentioning young Ben getting shot three weeks before it happens, well, that's a spoiler. But thx for keeping an old hermit happy.

@lockerocks, Richard or someone might have told him about the Tunisia entry point, though I'm thinking that Eloise Hawking is playing both sides, she wants to be on the winning side. She might have told Widmore.

I thought the episode a good one, though I honestly enjoyed most everything in an odd way, if I don't see it as a Ben episode, then I loved it. So much info in forty minutes.

Everyone give someone a hug this weekend!

Capcom said...

Thanks for that LostHemaTheory link GT!! Wow.

Hahaha, the dry look, I remember that Wayne! X-D Brylcreem sales must have gone down tremendously in those days.

Capcom said...
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Capcom said...

Geez-loo-weez, what typos, let me try that again!

P.S. That is what I've been wondering about Mrs.H Wayne, that perhaps she's been playing both sides (read: men) against each other to her own (possibly more pure for the island) purposes. Wid and Ben are in a struggle between themselves as well as to protect the island, and Mrs.H might just be the only one with power who is just working for The Cause. She might have said to them, "I'm doing this work here at the Lamp Post and whomever gets there first can fill the extra seat back to the island." But we don't really know enough about her yet to know for sure.

Hugs back! Happy Easter and Passover too everyone.

Bigmouth said...

Updated with three-dot thoughts. Happy Easter, you all everybody!

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Nice three dots, Big. I'm the only one up because the life of a writer is like the life of the Unabomber, only I use Mitchum deodorant.

And a big three dot it is. I love how Ben has a habit of falling into a lower chamber, and if that's a symbol of something. I think he went to his room because he vaguely remembered he could summon the Monster there, I kinda believe his amnesia will be fading. Its the only way to make the amnesia (Boo Hiss) thing work. Let's see if Amy plays a role in explaining why Ben's wound has healed.

I think Widmore was exiled for exploiting the Island in some way. But I've always thought the exile now meant, hey, try and find where the Island is now, hence Widmore's purchase of the Black Rock ledger. Adding to that, Ben told Locke he couldn't return, but Ben sure did. If Widmore returned, is it shoot to kill with him? Why? A slight courrse correction, if Widmore was off Island then he could one day manipulate Desmond and keep him away from Penny?

Rewatching the episode, it looked like Ceaser was shot with a flare gun, I dunno. And Desmond's shirt wasn't hit, the bullet hit a can of Spam. Damn, but Michael Emerson is ballsy for not using a stunt double.

Re: the Island and it's little helpers. Boone served a purpose, then died. Eko as well. I'm guessing we'll know more from Miles in a few days. In the Faraday episode KoreAmBear mentioned, I'm hoping Desmond shows up as his Constant.

Lapidus was starting with the Faraday look, Big, just one tail out so far. And yet Sun wore that buttony thing so well, and Locke with his graveyard shirt and pants.

One error? Purge over, Alex in the swing, Ben sees Widmore off. So why has it been twenty years that he has been looking for the Island? By all accounts, it should be 15. Goes with my thinking the Purge happened in 1985 or 6 from notations on the blast door map.

Over and out, Big. One last thing, to everyone. I was given a slot in an anthology dealing with any type of 2012 prophecy. Did the Egyptians have any type of doomsday thing going on? The story involves Cthulhu, one of Lovecraft's creatures, and I have a cool image of a giant Anubis fighting Cthulhu in the Nile. Different color schemes, desert and water. Any random thoughts or swear words, I'm at jonalgiers@aol.com, or check the email link on my blog.

Passing the baton on to our mutual friend in Hawaii. Only 9:15 there.

KoreAmBear said...

Aye, Wayne. Only thing I got is that I agree with the sentiments that Amy is an Other, with 1) the way she wasn't all that averse to the others taking Paul and 2) the way she seemed to value that ankh on Paul's neck. Thus, Ethan is also an other, since Amy is. I slowed my DVR down during the scene of the young Ethan, blew up the screen and saw what was on his shirt: "Other - Born and Raised." Also, I think I saw a mug during a Dharmaville shot after the Others took over, their penchant for mottos, "Brothers from a diferrent Other." Those Others crack me up. Signing off from Hawaii, 10:23 p.m., see you in another blog, bruthuh.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone else think John Locke is sexier every season, or is it just me? The suit suits him!

Capcom said...

Anon, you should find a pic of him at the Emmy's the year he won, he's got a tux and a hot pink satin shirt! Very sauve. I might have a pic of it that I can post here give me a minute.

I agree KAB, somthing's up with Amy, and I also thought that maybe Ethan turned to anarchy because of his mother's "iffyness" in her fealty to the DI. :-o

KoreAmBear said...

I bet Paul was an OTHER too, though, due to his ankh.

More Other t-shirt ideas:

<--I'm with Other

Kiss Me, I'm Other-worldly

It's an Other thing, you wouldn't understand

Ready for a Hostile takeover?

Don't hate cause I'm a hostile, just hate the game [btw, we don't know what this means in 1977]

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Don't forget "See you in another lifetime, Otha!"

And KoreAmBear, just because WE didn't get that phrase in 1977, well, the Others could have been using that line since 30,000 BC.

Capcom, agreed on Terry O'Quinn's outfit. And I'm betting he'll be in the same clothes for at least the rest of this season. No more hunting knives attached to his belt.

KoreAmBear said...

Wayne - Outstanding, a Desmond/Other shirt. Let's get these Other shirts going on Cafe Press. We'll make millions! Or at least $108.

Greg Tramel said...

maybe jacob's well is in the shadow of the statue and they are taking the ark of the covenant there


holy smoke

JLes said...

Greg Trammel..... you're blowing my MIND bro. GREAT theory.

What do you think that means?

Synchromystic Librarian (same person as Greg?)...your site RULES.

KoreAmBear said...

That IS a cool theory, especially with the way Ilana's henchmen were carrying the case, with the sticks - very similar to the way the Ark of the Covenant was carried, as you illustrated.

So is this a Christian (Jacob, Christian, Benjamin, Shepard, Aaron) v. Egyptian god (RA, Anubis, Paul's ank, perhaps Widmore) war?

KoreAmBear said...

Sorry, one more thing. I'm pretty sure the Ark of the Covenant never held up an Ajira water bottle. But again, that was an Ajira Flight 316 (John (Locke) 3:16) water bottle.

Capcom said...

I thought that Ethan was saying to Ben that he would kill Danielle, not take Alex. Ben didn't even know Alex was there until he woke her up, right? :-o

Heather said...

correct, he tells widmore later that he was unaware she had a child

Capcom said...

Tx.

Greg Tramel said...

i don't think it is Christian v. Egyptian, i think it is more of a comment on how religions are built on top of other religions (and sometimes temples for that matter) and how religions appropriate ideas from earlier religions

Capcom said...

Interesting thought GT. Also considering all the various peoples that may have gotten "pulled" there via the vortices/wormholes/pinholes/whatever over time, so that the island may have acquired multiple theologies in its "travels" and they built upon what came before.

Heheh, I forget who here mentioned about the Isrealites ending up on the island ater they left Egypt (altho it's the wrong direction), but that would be a funny way of explaining why it took them 40 years to make an 11 day trip, i.e., they took a heckuvva detour. :o)

KoreAmBear said...

Capcom, what's the 40 years? That would be a nice number to put in the Exodus theory -- as the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years. But 2007 - 1977 = 30 years. Are you talking about a different time frame?

Capcom said...

No, heheh, I was just kidding that maybe the island was moving around way back then too, and the Isrealites somehow got stuck in it for a while. :o)

KoreAmBear said...

Got it.

Hey, did anyone find it weird that Smokey/Alex said to Ben, "you bastard!" I mean, it's not the semi-cussing that bothers me. It's that a demi-god/monster would call a subject a "bastard"? That just seems to deflate the mythological intrigue for me. What's next Smokey tells Locke after Locke questions his destiny by having Christian say, "just roll with it, dogg"?

Was there any significance to "bastard"? I just thought it was odd/cheesy.

DakranII said...

I wondered about the significance of that "bastard" comment too because it seemed to have emphasis. I was trying to think how it could apply, but Ben isn't fatherless, he's motherless.

The definition of bastard at m-w.com is:

1: an illegitimate child
2: something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
3 a: an offensive or disagreeable person —used as a generalized term of abuse; b: man, fellow

3 seems pretty obvious, but was she referring to 1 or 2? Is Ben illegitimate in some way? Or is he of irregular or questionable origin? We don't have any history on his parents that I know.

Interesting...

Capcom said...

I agree, it was odd language for use by an "ethereal" character. But perhaps Smokey uses the original human's mannerisms? I kind of got the idea that Alex called Ben that a lot in their last few years. ;-)

KoreAmBear said...

Thanks guys, I thought it was just me. Ben's birth could be of questionable origin and definitely irregular. I mean Horace Goodspeed was in the area - that in itself makes you of questionable origin.

Also, and don't lie, did you guys not have a fleeting moment where you thought that Alex was going to try and start making out with Ben -- as some really strange and perverse twist to all this? I thought that for a split second when Alex pushed Ben up against the wall. Again, sorry, it could just be me and if so, run along, there's nothing to see here.

Capcom said...

LOL. She was getting rather up close and personal. X-D

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

I think Smokey lets whoever it is talk the way they did when they were alive. Yemi, Christian talks like sober Christian, so calm Alex became crazy Alex (crazy in the good sense).

The branches for the metal box? Easier for lugging along through the jungle on the main Island? Final episode is maybe tagged Fork In The Outlet? Does the metal crate hold the fork and is the donkey wheel the outlet?

Good thoughts, everyone.

machramm said...

@Wayne: I wasn't sure if your question about the season finale ep title was tough-in-cheek-or not. I'll asnwer it as if were serious...

The title was chosen by the producers after thousands of fan suggestions were sent in. I doubt it has any actual correlation to the actual story. If it does then they chose it purposfully from the list of submissions because it just happened to correlate.

In my opinion, the 4th season finale's title was the only one with any real correlation anyway. Maybe the 3rd as well, but less explicit.

machramm said...

Oops. That should have been "TONGUE-in-cheek or not."

Capcom said...

Machramm, that's what I'm guessing too about why TPTB chose that submission. If it has anything to do with what the finale is titled, that's probably why it was a good fit. :o)

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@machramm, no, I was going by the Frozen Donkey Wheel bit. I know the first few seasons were just words, like putting "Working Title" on a story with no name. I was being tongue in-cheek about a giant fork. Tines of a curved fork could fit in the Donkey Wheel spokes, and I was thinking another turn, the precise way, would get everyone back to 2008.

So, my thinking was, no, they weren't really looking at fan submissions OR they just went with their own. I could be wrong, but I don't really think a fan came up with FDW, but that's me. I'd lean towards the writers taking part of a phrase and building on it. That I could see.

@Big, set up the new post already so we can all give fake spoilers to KoreAmBear!

80sPro said...

Amazing three-dots.

And amazing comments, everyone.

Lots to consider and mull over.

But NO ONE is mentioning Richard and I believe this ageless creature has MUCH more to do with the final event than anyone realizes.

I think he is very very significant. And yet he's getting very little air time in terms of folks pondering his existence.

He is the puppet master. Notice how he sits in the wings and he sort of lets everyone think that it's their idea to do this or that? And yet, he's the one that planted the seed - every single time.

Richard is huge in this. It's the only thing in this show I have ever been sure of. Maybe he's Jacob. I mean, it's likely "Jacob" walks among them. But who of us would ADMIT we're Jacob as we walk silently among each other? I wouldn't. I'd play it coy, just like Eyeliner Dude.

Richard's Jacob. And before that, Annubis. Ra. Whoever.

No one's ever seen how many toes he has.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

80sPro, agreed. I'm for looking at things that have NOT been given their due on the show; the fact that Miles gets a flashback is cool. And, yes, Richard needs backstory more than ever since the events of 1954 and 1973. I'd like to see mention of the Dark Territory and The Black Rock, the ship was certainly important to Widmore. KoreAmBear mentioned another Faraday episode coming up, and I hope it includes Desmond in a Constant kind of way. And at this point, a Horace and Amy and half the DI should have their done-in-one tale. I've said before that one of my favorite episodes ever was the Nikki/Paulo one, no arc needed. I don't know if it could work, but a Widmore/Penny flashback would be interesting.

See everyone on the Island.

KoreAmBear said...

Wayne, stop teasing me. It's just a little past noon here on the island, and you guys on the east coast are gearing up to hear "previously on LOST."

80sPro - I agree, Richard is big into unlocking (sorry) the mystery of LOST. And Darlton would agree too, since **SPOILER ALERT HOLLA AT YOU - ESP TO WAYNE*** I found out that Nestor Carbonell's kid just enrolled at a local school. Whoo hoo, Season 6 may be Richard the Egyptian's deal.

But the only thing is that Richard does not appear to be in control. And he doesn't seem to be lying like Ben lies to manipulate others. Richard seemed genuinely surprised by Locke in 1954 and genuinely surprised by Sawyer, I mean . . . (fake french accent like in Totally LOST) Le Fleur, in 1974.

Plus, when an Other questioned Richard about the prudence of taking Ben in, as the Other mentioned Charles and Ellie, Richard had that whole, "I don't care what they say, shoot, they're not the boss of me" type of reaction. Certainly not the kind of guy who seems to be in charge.

So it's a total mystery what role Richard really plays and what kind of authority he has. But he's an intriguing character, that's for sure.

KoreAmBear said...

Shoot, left this out. I don't think Richard is Jacob - they showed Jacob and him saying "help me" to Locke. And whether or not Darlton was trying to give us a clue, the silouette of Jacob did remind of Horace, with the locks (no pun intended) and flowy hair. "Hi, I'm Horace, and I can't stop this dad-gum nose from bleeding."

DakranII said...

KoreAmBear: I agree about Richard not being in control. He seems like the guy who knows it all but those instances you mentioned prove that he doesn't. I was also thinking of his frustration with young Locke when he picked the wrong item.

Richard doesn't know it all, he is trying to figure things out too. But he sure is mysteriously different than everyone else.

80sPro said...

Know what?

I am going to respectfully ('cause I respect the crap out of you all everybody!) going to disagree. If you WANTED to not let on that you're the puppet-master, you could. And even the boss of the world can't control everything.

So I think he's the big kahuna. If he isn't Jacob, then Jacob is the smoke screen for HIM! But I think he's the big cheese. Do so [nods emphatically].

(Thanks for the info KABear - that sort of spoilerish stuff is great!)