Wednesday, April 15, 2009

Thoughts on Some Like It Hoth...

Some Like It Hoth once again showcased the hilarious and surprisingly moving Miles and Hurley Show. Which is fine with me because Ken Leung has become one of my favorite actors on Lost, despite his relatively limited role thus far. As my friend MB observes, Leung brings a compelling "everyman" quality to Miles. After his most recent round of flashbacks, however, the spin-off I'd really like to see is "DHARMA: The Next Generation."

In my recap of Dead Is Dead, I speculated that Ilana and her burly friend Bram might work for DHARMA. Now we learn that Bram previously kidnapped Miles and asked him the same question that Ilana did Lapidus. This time, the query -- "Do you know what lies in the shadow of the statue?" -- took on a more mystical air. When Miles didn't, Bram said this meant he wasn't ready to go to the Island. But the big guy invited Miles to "come with us," promising he would learn the answers to burning questions like who he is, why he can speak to the dead, and "most of all" who his father really was.

The revelation that Miles's dad was indeed Dr. Pierre Chang seems to confirm Ilana and Bram's connection with DHARMA. In fact, the latter two may themselves be the children of DHARMA members just like Miles, Charlotte, and Ethan. The big question is whether any of these DHARMA children were born there besides Ethan. We know that most of the DHARMA births took place on the mainland, but I'll bet Miles was an exception to this rule.

That possibility brings me back around to one of my favorite speculations. In posts like the Island of Lost Children, I've suggested that certain children, particularly those born on the Island, are capable of channeling its exotic energies. The children of DHARMA were removed from the Island at some point, probably to save them from the Purge. Someone is now recruiting them as adults with the aim of reconstituting DHARMA.

So what precisely is Miles's power? We've been led to believe he's a "ghostbuster" who can communicate with the dead, but this episode clarified some important limitations on his ability. Miles can't actually converse with ghosts. Instead, he learns "who they were and whatever they knew before they died" by scanning their minds like Smokey. (This may be why Miles was also able to tell Michael was lying about his name in Meet Kevin Johnson.) For that to work, however, the brain must apparently be intact as it was in the case of Widmore's courier.

Speaking of which, I think we now know who really faked crash of Oceanic 815. Recall that Tom blamed Charles, who denied responsibility. I'm guessing it was actually this next generation of who DHARMA who dug up those bodies in Thailand and purchased that old airplane in an effort to hide the location of the Island. Widmore's man was probably returning with proof that the crash was fake when the Others intercepted him. They found this evidence, which Tom later presented to Mike, and erroneously concluded that Widmore was the one behind the deception. So much for this speculation -- the clip show seemed to confirm it was Widmore who faked the recovery of Oceanic 815...

One thing's for sure. The coming war that Widmore mentioned to Locke will be between the Others and DHARMA for control of the Island, which is the key to the whole game. Here, in the spirit of Herb Caen, are some three-dot thoughts on Some Like It Hoth:

HE'S STILL TALKING. The microwave reads 3:16... I love how the editing and camerawork when Miles finds the dead body evokes the style of Asian horror films... Miles could "hear" the dead man's last thoughts -- his loneliness and cries for his dead wife -- but couldn't actually talk to him... Horace sends Miles to a grid inside Hostile territory, suggesting to me the Others and DHARMA have closer ties than we've been led to believe. In my more whackadoo moments, I wonder if Charles Widmore was actually playing both sides of the sonar fence. Maybe, during one of his many trips off the Island, Widmore invested in the Hanso Group, which partnered with DHARMA to create the "DHARMA Initiative Hanso Group" (i.e., the abbreviation "DIHG" on the Blast Door Map). What was Widmore's motive in doing so? Because of his interaction with Locke and Co., Charles realized the Island was capable of sending people into the past. He funded DHARMA's time travel experiments to complete the causal loop. Perhaps, once the Swan and Orchid were built, he had no further need for DHARMA and had them purged...

SOMEWHERE YOU CAN NEVER GO. That's what Miles's mother replies when he asks where his father is buried. It's telling that she lied and otherwise discouraged him from trying to find the Island, much like Charlotte's mum did whenever Charlotte asked about her father and childhood home... This seems to confirm that both daddies died in the Purge... Love EMO Miles. I wonder if his spikes were a shout out to the Kid Omega character that Ken Leung played in the third X-Men film... I had no idea that the actor who portrays Roger Linus was the same guy who played crazy Uncle Rico in Napoleon Dynamite until JLes pointed it out. Perhaps I'm too quick to dismiss Roger's much maligned wig, which successfully hid the resemblance...

HOW DO YOU SPELL BOUNTY HUNTER? When Hurley asked that question, I immediately suspected he was trying to write the Empire Strikes Back... Miles learns that Alvarez died when a filling was yanked out of his mouth, presumably by the Island's powerful electromagnetism. This suggests Alvarez was working on the Swan Station, as confirmed by the Swan insignia on the uniforms that Radzinski and Co. wear. The death harkens back to Desmond's comment in Orientation that his fillings hurt every time he walks by the concrete barrier in the Swan... I'm a big fan of the actor Dean Norris who played the despondent father, Mr. Grey. Norris also plays one of my favorite characters on one of my favorite shows, Breaking Bad, which I featured in a recent post. Which reminds me -- I'm actually moving my non-Lost related posts to a new blog about television called I Hate My DVR. Stay tuned for more info... Miles visibly cringes when Mr. Grey mentions that they cremated his son's body, further confirming for me that he can't simply talk with ghosts... I'm with KoreAmBear that Naomi looks hot, especially with long hair... Roger's mistrust of Kate struck me as implausibl. Given his hots for her, I would expect him to give her the benefit of the doubt. Their confrontation seemed forced for the purpose of moving the story forward... Hurley's comment about playing chess with the dead was a reference to his line in There's No Place Like Home "Checkmate, Mr. Eko"... I'm guessing Dr. Chang had the corpse brought to the Orchid for use in time travel experiments...

SO WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THIS MAN? All of the scenes where Miles actually reads the minds of dead people, as opposed to faking, are done in the Asian horror film style that I mentioned above. This was also true in past episodes-- e.g., when Miles scanned the minds of the dead soldiers in Jughead. Notably, the scene in Confirmed Dead where Miles spoke to the ghost of the drug dealer was not done in this telltale style, suggesting he was faking... The "significant number of dead bodies" that Naomi mentions presumably refers to the Purge. But I suspect the real reason Widmore wanted Miles on that expedition was that they had already met in the past... The sum $1.6 million marks another appearance of the Numbers (i.e., 16)... My friend MB can't get over the speed and stealth with which Jack erases the blackboard. Perhaps that's Jack's special power? ...Roger sure likes to kick things. Why wouldn't he report Kate to LaFleur? ...Hurley explains that the Swan Station will eventually be responsible for crashing their plane. Could the Incident be his attempt to change the future and avert the crash by sabotaging the Swan?

YOU'RE PLAYING FOR THE WRONG TEAM. Bram calling Mile's as "my friend" brought to mind Cesar's verbal tick. Was the latter a member of DHARMA: TNG as well? ...What do you suppose were Hurley's "improvements" to the script of Empire Strikes Back? ...Patrick Fischler is perfect as nosy and obnoxious Phil from security. In fact, it's testament to the success of Fischler's portrayal that I felt such satisfaction when Sawyer punched Phil's lights out... Miles refunding Mr. Grey's money reminded me of when he gave back half his fee to the mother of the dead drug dealer in Confirmed Dead, suggesting to me Miles was faking in both cases. His conversation with the drug dealer was just for show, in case the mother was eavesdropping. Miles found out about the stash the same way he learned the kid was murdered -- by scanning his brain at the morgue. The only wrinkle in this explanation is that drug dealer's ghost seemed to respond to Miles by bumping the bookshelf that hid his stash. My hunch is this is simply a plothole, but it's also possible the dealer's ghost really way there even if Miles couldn't actually see or hear him... I think Hurley has that backwards -- Vader cuts off Luke's hand before revealing he is Luke's father... How badass does Faraday look all dressed in black? Apparently, he really was absent from the Island, not simply out of his mind as many, myself included, had assumed...

As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!


Wayne Allen Sallee said...

OMG WOW YOW KoreAmBear Tom was on Sanford & Son?...Bob Newhart...Carol Burnett...wait, I'm taping TV Land! Son of a bitch!

KoreAmBear said...

You should have said wow, Jacob has challenged Ben and is now jumping a shark.

SKID said...

People of LOST everywhere . . .

Let it be henceforth known that from this day forward . . . April 15th, 2009 (and whatever day it is in 1977) . . . THE. TIE. IS. OFF.

SKID said...

Was the guy in the van the same guy that was on the beach guarding the crate with Ilana?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

So...hell. People in Hawaii are only just now watching LOST. It's midnight here in Chicago, the weather is a lot suckier and now I'm a day older, KoreAmBear.

Anyone else for a game of RISK for the next hour?

machramm said...

Another good episode for me.

I loved Juliette's line "Here we go."

The scenes between Hurley and Miles have become the heart of the show lately - Alternately touching and hilarious.

Daniel is back - yay!

Is there no new ep next week. Previews made it seem like just a recap ep. 100th episode looks good.

machramm said...

@Skid: Yeah. Same guy. Same statue shadow riddle.

Anonymous said...

Oooh, excellent, excellent! Miles watching his dad with his baby self made me cry...also, I really like the Miles/Hurley team. The actors have great chemistry.

Where is Sayid? I hope we see something of him soon...I want to know what is going on with him in the jungle, have the Others adopted him or is he with Rousseau or is he on his own?

And I think that was the guy with Ilana on the beach with the crate!

So how many teams do we have now -
- the Others
- the Widmores
- Dharma
- the Losties
- the Snowmen (Ilana and friends - anyone who knows what lies in the shadow of the statue.)

Who is on what side? And so glad Faraday is back! I so expect him to have some answers for them...

And I am really liking the new Jack. In fact, I like how all the characters are maturing as people in their situation.


beer said...

damn, so now it seems that there is a third party, separate from ben and widmore, headed by bram and illana. if that's true, shit just got a lot more complicated.

and fuck, daniel? when is he from? how does he remember? i'm freaking out. jesus.

i sort of just realised that miles is the key to everything. because he can talk with the dead, which he already knew, all the writers have to do is insert miles into a situation and you have a mystery solved... such as, say, adam and eve. damn damn damn.

beer said...

er, except it's pretty obvious already that adam and eve are the degroots.

beer said...

*which we already knew, about miles.

also, maybe bram, illana, and co. are headed by eloise? heck who knows.

Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

Hello everyone! Rambling thoughts in no particular order:

• The father issue continues. Next to Hurley, Miles has quickly become one of my favorite characters. I liked finding out what’s his story. I am curious as to how he received his gift – courtesy of the island? The fact that Hurley also communicates with the dead, also a gift from the island? This next statement has no proof to back up, but, will we find that possibly Hurley was born on the island?

• Miles seeing his father interact with baby Miles; will that prompt adult Miles to get to know Dad? Also adult Miles in close proxmity to baby Miles -- will it have some type of cosmic affect?

• Also if what happens, already happens, then whatEVER interaction adult Miles have with his father in 1977, probably won’t have much of an impact. Considering what we saw when Miles was age 7/8. We also know that Hurley wasn’t able to change the outcome of ‘Empire Strikes Back’ (lol, he’s right, the Ewoks sucked, big time…)

• For the most part, I was feeling the Miles and Hurley show, but, after a while, it got to be a little tedious. I know Hurley is supposed to represent the audience, but, I dunno I felt he was pushing it a little too much.

• Kate and her dang big mouth, always sticking her nose into something that doesn’t concern her. Then Jack just made it worse with his comments to Roger. While we knew the arrival of Jack and company was a signal of the end of happy time for Sawyer, still I was hoping for his happiness just a tad bit longer.

• You can see the lines being drawn between those who stayed on the island vs. the Oceanic Six. Sad to say, I think that separation is going to have a negative effect on our people down the line.

• Seeing Bram, is it safe to say that Ileana and company are possibly working for Dharma, not Widmore?

• Speaking of the Dharma folks, I’m getting a feeling that they’re not all ‘peace and happiness’ and Horace may not be as goofy as I previously thought.

• The hatch that we know and love was constructed in 1977. Why were the numbers imprinted? Will we ever find out the significance of the numbers? Also, the numbers were peppered throughout the episode.

• The person that was killed by the filing in his mouth, was it some type of magnetic force that made it come out?

• ‘Dan the Man’ is back! Obviously, he went off island for a while to work with the Dharma folks. AND he looks a lot better than he did the last time we saw him. Question, how much has he disclosed to the Dharma folks about the future? I don’t see him NOT saying anything. Also, wondering how his interaction with people in the past, affects the future.

• One more thing. WHERE are Rose and Bernard? I would have thought that at least Hurley would have asked about them.

In the beginning, I didn’t think I was going to enjoy the episode. It wasn’t until after the second break, I was able to relax. I think I was so worried about how they were going to handle the Miles/Sawyer/Tape issue. While I wouldn’t say that it was one of the best episodes, it did help explain the back-stories of our Losties. As usual, I look forward to the great conversation, I know will be generated. Wishing everyone a GREAT day!

Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

PS -- Since Ben had, in his possession, the pics and info that was stolen from Felix, does this mean that he was retrieving something that could be tied to him OR was Felix carrying the info to Widmore? If so, why have something like that exist? Or is there a third party involved that we yet don't know about?

neaux said...

Everyone wants to know WHEN the Losties are??

Did you see the construction paper Turkey in the classroom? I'm guessing that should tell you it is NOVEMBER of 1977.

Anonymous said...

Annie here :)

Loved last nights episode, loving the freighter folk more and more and more.

I do have some thoughts that i cant seem to stop thinking about, relating to last week and the week before that.

I get that little Ben wouldnt remember being shot by Sayid. i mean really Ben had only been interacting with him for barely a day, so to have him not remember Sayid after the trauma of being shot and all that, i can buy that.

What i cant buy is him not remembering Saywer, Juliet and Miles (since now we know Dan has been with the Degroots these past 3 years). Ben remembers his father, he remembers enough to know he doesnt want to go back to Dharma and stay with the hostiles. The only thing that i can think happened is that Smokey selectively chose which memories to take from Ben? A course correction perhaps?

Then i'm guessing Ben will be returned to Dharma after the incident, which im guessing will have a role in getting our Losties back to the present time.

Anyone got any thoughts?

barack abana said...

hi guys

so now we finally know what's with the 3.2 million dollar

now the question is, why 1.6 million dollar?

as with everything on the show, nothing is arbitary, and that includes this number

my bet is on the exchange rate between dollars and british pounds which in 2008 last trimester was around 1.6 (

widmore must have offered ONE MILLION POUNDS to anyone on that boat

now that's a round, unsuspicious number!

Mel said...

Funny someone mentioned the turkey craft in the classroom. I actually thought it was made out of that thin craft foam that's only become popular recently. I thought it should have been made of construction paper in the 70s. I could be wrong, and no big deal either way.

JLes said...


I love how Miles went through a "Rufio phase" before his mother died.

Anyone else notice the notes on the chalkboard that Jack was erasing (before Uncle Rico hilariously kicked his mop bucket)? Thought I saw an "Early Egyptian, Middle Egyptian, Late Egyptian" as well as a wheel with the word "God" near it. Gonna have to look for some HD stills.


Jason said...

Good episode (no Dead is Dead but...), I'm anxious to see the other freighter folks visits with the shadow group.

Anonymous said...


We get our Miles centric episode. Its about time, as I was sick and tired of the character getting only a one liner here and there and more or less acting as part of the scenery. FINALLY we get his past and we get to see some actual emotion:)

Lolagrrl said...

Seeing Faraday at the end there made this ENTIRE episode for me!!! :D

When Juliette looked at Kate and said, "Here we go." the look on Kete's face made me think that she ~finally~ undergets what it must have been like to be an "Other."

In fact, she kind of ~is~ an "Other" now...

LOVED the Star Wars references!! Hurley was so right! Luke never would have lost his hand if he hadn't just listened to what Darth Vader had to say (maybe?)... and then, none of us would have to deal w/Ewoks. ;D

justin said...

If Miles has always been at the Dharma station in 1977, wouldn't momma miles remember a guy named miles that looked like her miles grown up? Or did the facial piercings throw her off.

If that makes any sense.

DakranII said...

My question is what are they doing with the bodies? I suppose just disposing of them?

So the body was taken from the Swan station (being built) to the Pearl station? I don't remember my stations all that well. Is there any significance there?

Capcom said...

Wow, another riveting epsisode and great comments everyone.

I was so fixated on the mention of the bullethole in the guy's head that I didn't even make the connection between the filling (mentioned by Sayid in the Swan even!) and the magnetic spot. Duh.

I'm tired of the daddy issues, I think that we get it. But it was gratifying to hear Hurley's take on the value of working things out.

Hmm, I truly thought that I was the only one who was ticked off about the Ewoks.

Also tired and frustrated with all the factions working against each other. :-p These new guys better be reconstituted DHARMA.

So great to have a Miles episode, and the actor was fantastic. Especially in the scene outside Chang's house. Miles looked so much younger as a punk too, how'd he do that? His voice even sounded higher. :-D

And Dan....oh yeah.

Capcom said...

Good question Dakran. Fertilizer???

Anonymous said...

LantzDogg in the hizzy.
This season of Lost is feeling more and more bifurcated to me. Almost as if there is one story line for “custys” (non-Lost fans that happen by the show, or just started watching this year), and another story line for the die-hard, blogging, mythology driven kooks like myself. One week we are privy to excellent stories that advance the mythology and are part of the sweeping-arc that is 5 seasons of LOST; the next I find myself suffering through made-for-television drama that is heavy on reconciliation. I find the latter to be quite boring, as I did with this week’s episode.
• What did we learn? We “knew” Miles was the Son of Chang. Didn’t We?
• We knew he could talk to dead people.
• We knew he used this power for his own personal advancement.
• We knew Roger was a drunk and had a temper.
• We knew Kate just can’t help herself (flashback to the episode where she gets her first love killed)
• We knew that Radzinsky was an a-hole
So watching Miles get all teary eyed seeing his never-known-ya father read to him did nothing for me. Sorry.
I just hope we don’t have to go from week to week waiting for an alternative week to get to the good stuff (that being Locke, Ben, and what in god’s name is the Smoke Monster).
Ilana and Company work for the C.I.A. “do you know what lies within the shadow of the statue” is too Kelvin-esque for me not to believe that his organization (which I believe is the CIA) is the third-party that is bringing the war to the island. For some time now, I have thought the war was between Widmore and Ben. I don’t think that is necessarily so anymore. I think they are certainly involved in a power struggle for the Island, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend…and I believe that the true enemy has yet to show their face (to quote Michael Corleone in GF III).
Kelvin knew of the Island. Kelvin was with Radzinsky. Kelvin knew Desmond (right up until the point that Desmond killed him). Kelvin knew Sayid. Kelvin was CIA. Kelvin used the “what did one snowman say to the other snowman” riddle, which is very similar to the “shadow” question. Surely the CIA knew where they were sending Kelvin, or at least, gave him an objective, never to hear from him again.
And who else would have the resources to get to the Island. To take down Sayid, handcuff him, and take him on a plane without a question. Who else could load the plane with weapons…and who might be oblivious to one Mr. Benjamin Linus.

War’s coming….

3D said...

Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

"• Also if what happens, already happens, then whatEVER interaction adult Miles have with his father in 1977, probably won’t have much of an impact. Considering what we saw when Miles was age 7/8. We also know that Hurley wasn’t able to change the outcome of ‘Empire Strikes Back’ (lol, he’s right, the Ewoks sucked, big time…)"

Unless Hurley actually DID write Empire and managed to get it through to Lucas, and gets it produced. Then, whatever changes he made to the script got "revised" into the stuff he didn't like in the first place.

Worse, maybe he attached some kind of note about not including the Ewoks, and actually wound up creating the Ewoks by giving them the idea.

That would be a more lighthearted reoccurrence of what happened when Jack refused to save innocent Ben and turned him into heartless Ben. Trying to change the future results in establishing it the way you remember it.

SKID said...

Quick question . . . and I usually hate trite connections made in haste, but having said that . . .

ANY chance that Alvarez's "Andrea" (that Miles "heard" him talk about) is Annie?

. . . or was she just mentioned by name to highlight Miles humanity beneath his cynical surface???

I still maintain that whatever happens to Annie is what sends Ben over the edge.

Wacko prediction: Maybe SHE dies in childbirth giving birth to . . . Karl and THAT is why Ben wanted to keep them apart. Even though not related by blood, there is a Luke/Leia thing going on between he and Alex?)

As I read back over this it looks JUST like the theories I skim over and even want to throw into a pile of polar poop, but I found it odd that Andrea was mentioned so prominently . . . AND I keep waiting for Annie's return.

Capcom said...

Hmm, Annie could be short for Andrea. :-)

Heheh, polar poop.

KoreAmBear said...

Ah, I finally read everyone's great posts. My routine for the day-after this season has been to read Doc Jensen's post (I used to read the responses, but I don't like reading 2,000 responses, half of it repeats without building on anything - hard to navigate), read the responses here, then this local Honolulu Advertiser blog on LOST (for the local perspective, like on scene settings, etc.).

That's an excellent take on the CIA, Lantz Dogg, and it totally works with the Kelvim-Sayid-Ilana connection.

"Bram" -- that's an uncommon name. Reference to Bram Stoker of Dracula fame? Are these guys are vampires (just kidding, I think)?

Wow, I think the actress that plays Naomi is beautiful. Maybe it's the English accent.

The $1.6 million. Well, you have 16, one of the numbers.

The microwave oven showed 3:16 as the time when Ms. Straume was trying to rent out the apartment. I think it was Apt. 4.

Lil Miles lifted the key to Apt. 3 from a ceramic rabbit.

Was Miles lying to Hurley when he said he doesn't hear the dead guys talk? Didn't he hear the dude in Apt. 3 talk and Miles couldn't turn it/him off?

That Dharma worker dude shouting out the numbers for the hatch. One first glance, I thought he was Egyptian looking -- dark face with the really curly hair flowing out of his helmet. Then it kind of looked like Michael Bolton or Kenny G. Maybe Flight 815was destroyed because Kenny G. was piping in some deadly muzak into the pilots' transmission. Anyway I thought this guy's look was peculiar:

I was watching with the CC on (always do), and it's funny because as the workers building the swan carried the dead body out of the VW Bus, on the CC it said, "who's in there, Jimmy Hoffa?" But without the CC, you couldn't hear that at all. Weird.

Capcom said...

I saw that too on the CC, I couldn't figure out who said it. :-D

KoreAmBear said...

I thought either of the two guys handling the body -- or some other onlooker worker. But impossible to make out.

That van that Bram was in, that looked like the same exact van in which Ben was transporting Locke's dead body, the Canton-Ranier (anagram: reincarnation) one. Any significance to that? Or was Darlton's budget just getting a little overloaded and with all these VW Buses to account for, they couldn't justify renting another van?

Anonymous said...

I got a little side-tracked with the return of Farraday. But now that we know for sure that DF has been off island these past three months since he was last seen under the orchid with Dr. Chang, I think we can safely assume that Daniel's notebook, of which he seems to understand very little, was left for him by his future self. Before the Island 4 enlisted in the DI, he would rummage through the notebook every time he needed to know what to do next, as if following instructions from a later version of himself who had already participated in said events.

This theory gets a little stretched when you assume that Dan had the notebook before he first met Desmond at Oxford. Considering that "Desmond Hume" seems to be written all over the book, you would think that younger Dan would recognize his name at least.
But it also helps to explain his obsessive academic interest in space-time and his knowledge of certain things - like how to build a mini-Swan-purple-light projector.

Like Locke/Richard's compass, the notebook's path through time would be cyclical, never actually being created and always traveling back to the beginning of it's path. This where the logic of time travel really starts to hurt my brain. Where did the notebook and compass come from?

Both objects must go through some wear and tear. When Locke brings the compass to Richard in '54, it must be in the EXACT same physical state it was when Richard gave it to Locke a few hours earlier, yet Richard proceeds to carry the darn thing around with him for 50 years before he gives it up. The same thing goes for DF's notebook. These two objects cannot possibly change physically, otherwise we would have some serious paradoxes. This leads me to only one ironic conclusion. Like Richard, the compass and the notebook never age.

This logic might explain why RA doesn't age either, cuz like Juliet once said, "Richard's always been here."

KoreAmBear said...

Biggy, any significance to Tommy being on the cover of the SI issue that Miles is reading in the monitoring room?

The Dodgers were runners up to the Yankees in 1977 - with Reggie Jackson going nuts.

Btw, the Ann Arbor folks' Michigan football team did very well, going 10-1 during the 1977 season but losing to Washington in the Rose Bowl.

Anything to this? Were the DeGroots and Dr. Chang huge Wolverine fans? Maybe Bo Schembechler makes an appearance on the island?

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hi, everyone. Annie, I think you answered your own question, that Ben's amnesia was selective, because, unlike the Smoke Monster confronting Eko, Ben was only shown scenes involving Alex. That was a tell about the selective judging and I'll bet that is similar to what happened in 1977.

And I've pretty much had this phrase in my head all season: Kate is going to eff this $#!t up.

Doesn't it seem strange that the Orchid in 1977 pretty much looks like the Orchid in 1973, at least from the outside? Maybe some of the dead workers end up being used by Chang, but I think that's doubtful. Um, right? It couldn't be a, crap lets try bunnies instead thing, right?

@Lantzdogg, what I like about these episodes is that we are getting pretty much every single character's life up to the night before Ajira 316 or the Kahana. Having said that, ANY episode not involving Kate is a good one.

I'm not certain its exactly CIA. We are getting a setup though, the US Army photo that Hawking had in the Lamp Post, and I really did (up until like right now)think the snowman question was a DI thing, but, yea, it was Inman. I do think Ilana's group is a 3rd party, or at least a reconstituted DI (as a cover). Maybe not CIA, maybe NSA or DARPA.

Anyone think that the Egyptian stuff is a red herring, now that we've seen Jack erasing a whole blackboard of the symbols?

Lastly, and it must be Ragnarok since I'm bring up the ARG, but the new DI ARG was cut rather quickly and the Ajira thing was posted (I'm vague on most of that). But what if that, in itself, was some type of clue? The DI abruptly ends right before Ajira, kind of like OK we have who we need, then Ajira pops up as the next clue. lf I sound confusing, I'm saying, for those who thought the new DI ARG was a rip the way it ended, well, what if that was the point? Are their clues somewhere in that ARG that might show this hew "DI" to be somewhat insiduous?

Enjoying the comments. As a group, we rock. KoreAmBear, Doc Jensen is OK, but our mutual friend has the answers. But now my interest in the Honolulu Advertiser has been peaked.

Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

As usual, I’m enjoying the comments. Thanks for clearing and helping me understand things more. You wouldn’t believe that I’m STILL struggling with the time travel thing.

LantzDogg said something that struck a chord in me and I think it’s why I couldn’t get too excited about this episode. Even if it had Miles AND Hurley out in front. Other than ‘Dan the Man’ appearing in the end, there wasn’t anything that we haven’t talked about on this site. Especially regarding Miles. Interesting comments regarding the CIA being involved. I would hope that this late in the game, Darlton wouldn’t be introducing a new group into the mix. But, you never know ...

Gotta agree with Mr. Wayne Allen Sallee comments. Doc is good and in addition to this site, there are three others that I check out. This is the only one that I actively participate in. From my first post, I’ve felt welcomed, that in itself is truly appreciated. What I especially love about this site is that all points of views are respected and you aren’t belittled for those thoughts.

I’ve gone back to Season one and have started re-watching. It’s a different viewing experience now. Especially knowing the things that we now know. I have a confession. I’m an addict for LOST. I’m gaga over this show and it’s been an obsession for me since episode one. This is where I get my fix, discuss, and read comments from folks who like to really delve into the show as I do. Most of my friends and family don’t ‘get it.’ It may sound a little sad, but, thanks to everyone for helping me enjoy my obsession.

Have a GREAT one…

Rambling Thoughts of Poohbear said...

Another random thought (on a roll today!).

Since it ‘appears’ that Sawyer is the one who makes the body bag runs and is ‘in the circle of trust,’ can we assume that he knows what happens to the bodies? Can we assume that he definitely knows the secrets of the Dharma folks? In addition, the folks who voted to exterminate Sayid, are they all part of the ‘circle of trust?’


80sPro said...

I love you, Skid!!!!

I fairly guffawed and choked on my latte!

Jason said...

Big, not sure if this has been covered, I've read through about the bottom half of the comments, but didn't Miles talk to that kid in his bedroom? (The one that then bumped his dresser to show him where his bank roll was).

KoreAmBear said...

Jason, I thought Miles did "talk" to the grandson of the lady by asking him where the money was. So I think he was lying to Hurley about that, and also lying to the father of the football player son, by saying that it works better when he has a body. I think Miles just tells people what they want to hear about his powers - since they are so desperate and will believe anything. Looks like Miles takes short cuts to just get the money and leave.

Poohbear -- yes, I love this site because people are very cordial and welcoming, and reminds me of the Aloha spirit. I tried posting after Doc Jensen's episode recaps, but it's an exercise in futility. First of all, there are about 2,000responses by early the next day. Any post you respond to is left out in the morass of posts, because there is really no thread management -- almost every single post of the 2-3K posts that wind up after each of Doc's recaps, are singular and don't have any relation to any of the other posts. The best example of this was the "hey, I just had a light bulb moment -- Ellie the belligerent is Eloise Hawking! Look at me!!! Whoo hoo!!!" This revelation was happening every 5 minutes like clockwork. It was just getting comedically absurd.

I like it hear where things are manageable, people seem to respond to each other, respecting each other's thoughts. That's what makes it a good blog community. Thanks for setting the tone, Biggie Big.

Oh, the LOST blog on the Honolulu Advert. is:
That's a good one too. The people there are nice, but not nearly as engaging and friendly as on here. Aloha.

DakranII said...

I don't remember Miles' encounter in the house with the changing picture (will we ever know what's up with that??) but I don't think Miles was lying to Hurley.

Hurley literally talks to dead people. He sees them and has conversations. Miles said that talking requires a brain and when they're dead, the brains ceasing functioning, so they can't be talking. I think, rather, that Miles communicates with them. Not talks to them. We hear him vocalize his part of the conversation so that as the audience we can hear it, but I don't think he's "talking" to them.

I think the writer's were trying to get us to realize there is a difference. When someone is dead, they don't talk, as Miles said. But Hurley talks to "dead" people, which may mean that they aren't really dead.

Just a thought...

Bigmouth said...

Jason and KoreAmBear: You both are asking exactly the right question. I'll address this again in my three-dot thoughts, but briefly, I think Miles was faking both times. Recall that he returned some or all of the fee to both parents. Here's what I think happened in the case of the drug dealer. His mother hired Miles, who went to inspect the body at the morgue -- that's how he learned the kid was murdered and where the drug money was hidden. The only wrinkle in this explanation is the falling book. That sure made it seem like he was actually talking to the kid's ghost, but maybe it was all just a red herring. I know...not super satisfying. I have a feeling Miles's power may have changed slightly since his character was introduced. But like Dakranll, I think the writers are now trying to clarify the difference from Hurley's ability to interact with dead people.

Anonymous said...

Snobbles here. I'm new, but you guys always have such good comments.

What about the fact that Miles brings that make-shift vacuum cleaner when he first shows up to ask the teenage gangsta ghost where the money is. Though it may seem like it is just part of his con, I don't think it is. Maybe the weird sound it emits somehow enables Miles to communicate with ghostly entities. But I keep coming back to the line from HOTH -

"What I can do has nothing to do with chatting with ghosts you nitwit." or something like that.

Which leads me to believe that the writers flubbed this.

In any case, Miles had no one around to convince when he was talking to the ghost, so I don't think he was lying then. He may have lied about his intentions to the Grandmother, but I think he really was communicating with a ghost. And the falling book - you can't tell me that is just a coincidence.

Maybe Miles just didn't fully explain his ability. He does say, "It's MUCH BETTER when there's a body." but never states that he absolutely needs one.

KoreAmBear said...

Was the Dharma construction dude that yelled out the numbers, using this stuff?

I still can't get my mind off the jerry curl.

Hey Wayne - I was snooping around the UFO blog site and a rumor is that Darlton has cast a kid for a little Tom. No word on whether there is a little Arturo. Wait, is Arturo, Artz? You never know.

jesus of lost said...

everyone keeps banging on that miles seeing himself as a baby was touching,however, what makes you all so sure that the baby is miles, it is in fact going to be Sun.....

80sPro said...

nope, jesus. Hurley says in the van to Chang, "how old is your son" and Chang says three months. Then Hurley, being EXCELLENT as a smart-ass here, says "isn't his name Miles? HEY - What a coincidence! What are the chances there would be TWO Miles' on this island?"

KABear - I could not agree more. It's a great and also respectful (and therefore safe) place to make as educated guesses as we can. Who knows whoever will turn out to be RIGHT the way they twist and turn this thing. But I love it.

Oh, and I AM right about one thing: Richard as Puppet Master. I just feel it. So okay I have felt other stuff in the past too. But this time I just KNOW I am right.

[grins broadly]

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@KoreAmBear--Arzturo, you mean? :) I wonder how young Tom would be, he seemed to be in his 50s in 2004. Could he have arrived on that sub? A student at UMAA, perhaps?(Hey, that UFO symbol burned into the tree--similar to Juliet's branding-- near Ethan's cache of guns was the mark of UMMO, just typing the above made me realize that, another inside joke from the writers...?)

@Big and the Miles-talkers: in this past episode's case, I think the reason Miles came back was just to show Dean Norris (who is on BREAKING BAD, Bigmouth told y'all to watch this show last month!) that he should've manned up and talked to his son. He wants a fast buck, but a few scenes were ham-fisted and this was one of them. Ahhh, Miles wishes his dad had told him he loved him. I guess the scene had to go that way for it to stay in the daddy issues guidelines (I'm not being sarcastic, don't think that).

So, Big, you think its Dharma 2.0 vs. the Others? OK. But why did it take so long for the Others to purge DI 1.0 and then why did it take so long to get a new DI together to fight the Others in 2008? What lines were crossed or rules were changed in each instance to cause first the Purge, and then, 16 years later, Ilana and her crew to come back to the Island? The first might be explained by Jacob's whims, waiting for Ben to be old enough, but how do we explain the DI remaining inactive (more or less) for a decade and a half? Just tossing it out there, to everyone.

Lastly, since we have now heard verses from RIDE, CAPTAIN, RIDE and IT NEVER RAINS IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, I guess the only other obscure plane reference song I can think of is SILVER BIRD by Mark Lindsay & The Raiders. (Yes, its true. I'm older than Richard Alpert.)

Enjoy the start of the weekend,everyone.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Oh, and SKID. Maybe you can't wear a tie when you are on the sub. Just sayin'.

jesus again said...

yes but he says howold is your son, assuming that he wasnt bothered about the daughter, chang clocks this because he already knows hurley wants to eat his daughter!


Scott said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Scott said...

I think the real "coming war" on the island is the same one that's been going on since the beginning of time... science vs. faith. DHARMA represents Science, the natives represent Faith (the temples, etc.).

The whole Widmore/Lock/Ben fight is just a spat over who will lead the natives against a resurgent DHARMA.

It's science vs. faith is one of the central themes of the show... I think the whole Ben v. Widmore thing has just been a distraction.

For that reason, I'm quite sure that once the show's over we WON'T get all the answers... I'm not sure there's even time left to answer everything with only ~20 episodes to go. There is no explanation of what Smokey is... just as there is no explanation of what God really is.

I wonder if there will even be a real "conclusion", in the sense of a winner... it seems set up for a stalemate, where the battle may end (as in the purge), but the war will never end.

Capcom said...

You could be right about B&W being a distraction Scott. They could very well be considered to be on the same side of the war, it's just that they were both deemed not worthy to be on the island due to their overall respective mistakes and breaking of the rules. That is, they are both fighting each other to be on the side of the island when the war breaks out, and each one wants to be the first to use Locke and any other catalysts to get a foothold on the island if/when their side wins.

As for Mrs.H, she may be accomodating them both as long as either of their cooperation would help save the island, and she's just letting the island decided who gets to get forgiven first...Ben or Wid. It might make no difference to her, whatever side she's on (the Hostiles or the Time Lords...).

So Bram Stoker and the New DI could be the newly reconstituted DI (that we were supposed to be a part of in the aborted '09 ARG) that Chang urged in his video. Lost2010 over at The Lost Community blog had the idea that Bram and his crew are children of the old DI and like Charlotte and Miles, are looking to get back to what they consider to be their home turf, which sounds good to me too.

Although, these new guys seem like they could be out for more than just getting back to their childhood swingsets, possibly to enact revenge on their parents' behalf, which didn't really interest Charlotte. She seemed to be genuinely searching for her past to understand it all and to close up the gap of missing pieces in her life once and for all.

And this is where I could see that the new DI team planted the fake wreckage, possibly still having access to old Hanso's DI coffers for the financial means. But I'm not married to this theory, I'm just sayin'. :o)

Capcom said...

P.S. All of which brings up the thought that Dan is possibly responsible for all the kids and mothers getting punted off of the island on short notice, due to him telling Chang (or HQ) about the coming Purge, which may not be stopped since what happened happened, but at least the families can be saved by getting them off the island ahead of time ASAP. Hence, all the kids hate their fathers, and had strange lives with their mothers back in the world, and a big question-mark about their early lives. ???

Capcom said...

P.S.S. Haha Wayne, The Raiders!! I always wondered why Paul Revere left and I didn't like Mark's new beard either. X-D

OK, sorry, no more posts, I promise.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

Hey, Capcom. I think it was actually only Mark Lindsay and a few of the Raiders, by then, they had just split with Paul Revere. My bad. I posted yesterday but I think it was lost again, that (aside from me posting about an ARG was the sign of Ragnarok), maybe the DI ARG wasn't really aborted, maybe it was a tell about the upcoming season. Maybe the new ARG stopped because the DI had all the people they needed for the ramainder of the show, and then Ajira became another set of clues.

Right now, I think Widmore is more in favor with the Island than Ben. If only for one reason. the Others bury their dead. We saw this when Amy told Sawyer the two Others had to be buried. And wasn't it strange that Keamy and his men took the time to bury Rousseau and Karl? Yet, if Keamy was hired by Widmore, I'll bet he was told just that, bury the dead. Of course, Alex couldn't be buried because of the smoke monster. Ben, on the other hand, dumped the DI into a mass, and open, grave. Last season, we didn't know about Widmore's connection to the Island, and I'll hazard a guess that he (or someone close to him), neglected to tell Ben about burying the bodies. The Others helped dispose of them, but if Widmore saw Ben falling into favor with Richard and him falling out of favor, some communication might have been mangled up. Long meandering paragraph that mostly started because I've been wondering why ther mercs buried Danielle & Karl. Didn't seem like simply a plot device for Miles' ability.

Ilana and Bram are the children of the damned? OK, Faraday gets the men to at least get a few of the women and children off Island. Might explain why we saw no dead kids in the Purge. Yet, this is one of the only Faraday aspects of What Happened Happened that actually does makes my head hurt. At one point, there was a compass that neither Richard nor Locke had owned. And one of the first families Faraday broke up on the Island was Charlotte and her mum. But I have a harder problem with this time loop involving the families than I do the compass.

And, of course, we have a lot of 2008 kids with daddy issues, as we have had since S1.

@Scott, I really don't want every single thing to be answered on LOST, the Island was an enigma on day one. (And I think, to an extent, everyone watching the show falls into either the science or the faith group, not really in-between). But I would like to see some answers to stuff tossed at us in S1, the Black Rock, the skeletons, and we probably will get some of that. If this war is part of a causal loop, then another logical song to hear would be Zager & Evans' IN THE YEAR 2525 (maybe it was only yesterday...).

Capcom said...

Heheh, I love that song too.

Yes, all the hasty burying (and anything that it may mean and have in common) has perplexed me also.

Roger said...

Actually, lostpedia proved it's Widmore that faked the wreckage:


80sPro said...

Wayne, darling, I am in between.

Capcom - egad. I like where you're going with these theories. I bet that's why there is still a Miles, and maybe (???) even some of our old friends.

It is going to be interesting. And I do think that 20 eps is enough to tell us all , including the mythology stuff.

Skid. I dreamed of the tie last night. No kidding. He said it was too tight and tore it off his grimy neck. Poor Daniel...

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: My whackadoo speculation is that Widmore was playing both sides of the sonic fence, leading the Others while also investing in the Hanso Group. This put him in a perfect position to negotiate a truce between the Others and DHARMA: TOS. It's taken DHARMA: TNG this long to grow up, find each other, and plan their second coming. Speaking of which, do you suppose they may be funded by the Economist?

Roger: Very persuasive logic, but I question his assumptions. Widmore wasn't looking for the Black Rock so much as the Island where he knew it landed. He created the Maxwell Group, which funded an expedition that systematically searched a list coordinates logged in the Black Rock's Ledger. Sam (the protagonist of the ARG) got an anonymous email from someone within the Maxwell Group specifying a set of coordinates on that list. But -- and this is key -- Sam was then discouraged by a Maxwell agent (Talbot) from searching at those specific coordinates, which turned out to be the fake crash site.

Here's my reading of the foregoing. DHARMA: TNG staged the crash at a location they knew was on Widmore's list of places to search. Then they used a mole inside the Maxwell Group to send the anonymous e-mail to Sam, knowing he would insist the expedition search there. Talbot discouraged him from pursuing the anonymous tip because Widmore already suspected that DHARMA: TNG was trying to trick him about the true location of the Island.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@80sPro, in between is good, too. But I should clarify that I meant to state that all of us watching the show are one side or the other in regards to the show itself. Do we root for the Island/Others or do we root for seeing Faraday finding a way to get our core characters safely reunited in 2008?

@Bigmouth, hmnn. It makes sense that Dharma TNG would take that long to regroup. The older kids would remember the events much clearer than, say, baby Miles. They'd need convincing. Also, TNG would have suffered a few casualties via Ben or Widmore along the way, slowing things down. I'll buy that. But I'm not certain on TOS (The Original Series, right; christ, I'm dense). I guess its me trying to figure out certain things, e.g., if Richard is working at Mittelos, wouldn't he at least have some inkling of what Widmore was doing? Can each keep the other that unchecked? And, by your thinking, it was Widmore (through Jacob) that had Richard perform the Purge along with Ben? Perhaps Widmore was at the Tempest himself, unleashing the gases.

Capcom said...

Snicker, whenever I see Mittelos I always think of a Mittlewerk brand Spaghetti-Os. I know, I'm immature. :-B

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Big, sorry, read your comment wrong last night. So Widmore was maybe going to negotiate a truce, you say? Would that make him like Locke, accepting science but believing in faith? Does that then make Richard (and Jacob, if Richard always acts on Jacob's orders) the ones who still do not want change? That part is problem, why wait until 1992? Was it needing Ben to come of age so that Widmore could be banished? Did I answer my own question? And if Ben was a substitute for the stubborn and absent Locke, did Ben believe in science AND faith after he was taken to the Temple?

80sPro said...

But Ben acts as though he's never even seen the temple.

I dunno. I think the majority are still with the original losties. I think we're all hoping they manage to find their peace and forgive themselves for being faulty persons. I mean, most of us have always assumed being lost was much more than literal in definition...

Bigmouth said...

Updated with three-dot thoughts. Keep those great comments coming, you all everybody!

Wayne: I mean Widmore may have been responsible for the original Truce mentioned by Richard and Horace. Widmore's meeting with Locke and Co. made him realize the Island was capable of sending people into the past. Perhaps he funded DHARMA's time travel experiments to complete the causal loop. It may even be that Ben discovered Widmore's involvement with DHARMA, which was partly what led to his banishment.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@80sPro, agreed, S1 was all about "is this purgatory?" and the idea of redemption, but ever since Jughead, I've really been on the side of the Others and the Island. The US Army didn't need to displace them and (because of the photo in the Lamp Post), they may have been what led Dharma to know of its existence. So, I'm for the Island winning.

And that said...

Big, I get what you mean, I'm not doing too well these days and its affected my cognitive process a bit. (Wish I could say it was Jose Cuervo doing that, but no...) Back to what I replied to 80sPro, it could also have been Widmore who told the people behind the DI about the Island, and if anyone doubted him, all he had to do was bring up Jughead and the lost battallion. So, yes, I get it now, Widmore from 1954-1974, playing both ends of the sonic fence, like you said.

Wayne Allen Sallee said...

@Big, just read the three dots. What if Faraday is the go-to guy from Ann Arbor now? Is this your causal loop idea, Widmore/Hanso funds the time travel experiments that Faraday has been trying to perfect. The Alvarez guy, when Charlotte's dad--possibly working at the Swan, not the Orchid, as I said back in the day--tells his wife about the guy, could she start freaking out with "This Place Is Death" rant? Obviously, others have died, as was implired by Horace.

Glad you brought up Miles asking about his dad. Any thoughts on how Mrs. Chang knew that her husband was dead? Did she start getting death benefit checks one day out of the blue?

Well, enjoy the coming week, everyone.

Patanjali said...

whats with the numbers again? episode has those reference to those cursed numbers. whats the big deal???

Bigmouth said...

Wayne: Put it this way, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Faraday meets Widmore during his trip to Ann Arbor. Regarding Mrs. Chang, we know that Daniel eventually tells Pierre about the Purge. I get the sense this precipitated an evacuation of some women and children. Mrs. Chang and Mrs. Lewis probably just assumed their husbands were dead.

Capcom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Capcom said...

Say a prayer for Professor Hawking today, he's been ill:

Hope that you feel better too Wayne. :-x

KoreAmBear said...

JLes and Bigmouth -- you have officially turned my life upside down. Roger Linus = Uncle Rico? How gnarly is that? I'm going to go get my bike and do some sweet jumps in honor of Uncle Rico. What's next Cesar = Pedro?

LOST casting has been so great even with bit parts -- Locke's gf Helen (Peg Bundy), Hurley's dad Cheech, dude from Newhart, even Locke's dad. Before I knew Locke's dad as Anthony Cooper, I grew up watching him as Roy DeSoto on Emergency! the paramedic version of CHiPs.

I'm sure I am missing a few others. But I also did enjoy Henry Ian Cusick as Jesus in The Gospel of John before I knew him as bruthuh-man. And it was fun seeing Locke on Old School as Luke Wilson's boss, as well as remembering Jin in that California Cheese commercial ("you betcha").

machramm said...

I cannot claim ownership of this theory, but I want to share it because it is so cool. I heard someone else express this idea on the Transmission podcast.

Many have assumed that Miles has the ability to communicate with the dead. He has refuted this by telling Hurley that he – in fact – does not talk to dead people. This theory provides a more time-related explanation.

It has been a long-held tenet of sci-fi that a person cannot come into contact with oneself (from another time). Catastrophic consequences are told to be occur in such a situation. This is supported in the LOST universe by the rabbit video in which Chang was adamant that the duplicate rabbits be kept from touching.

The theory is that Miles somehow comes in contact with his younger self. The consequences are unknown, but include the manifestation of his ability in the younger miles. The ability is the ability to see a person’s past. It could appear that he can communicate with the dead, but he simply sees their past and thus knows how they died.

I think this can be supported by something Miles told Hurley in “Some Like It Hoth”. He said that Alvarez was killed when a filling was ripped though his brain. If that happened to me I don’t think I would know what was happening. It likely happened very fast. This is week support of the theory, but I thought of this when I first head Miles mention it.

This can explain why he knows things about people that are still alive. For example, Miles knew that Michael’s real name was not Kevin Johnson. How would an ability to speak to the dead allow him to know that?

I hope some of like the theory too.

KoreAmBear said...

I'm sure Faraday and Miles are going to have a conversation something like this:

Miles -- I saw myself today - it crapped itself.

Faraday -- by all means possible, do not, I mean DO NOT touch yourself.

Miles -- aren't we getting a little personal?

Faraday -- I'm talking about you as an infant. Something really bad is going to happen if you do.

Miles -- but I already changed myself, when I was babysitting for the Changs, so they could go to movie night and see Kramer v. Kramer.

Faraday -- God help us all.


Capcom said...


My brother just wondered out loud if maybe baby Miles and big Miles touching is how Chang loses his arm, trying to keep them apart or something. :-)

Josh H. Pille said...

Okay, been following BigMouth for the duration of this incredible season, but am a first time commenter. So this may be a really dumb question; I apologize if so.

Daniel. As absolutely thrilled as I am to see him back, I'm also a bit baffled. Here's the things I'd though we knew about Daniel:

1) An older, crazed Daniel was on the island in the DI days, and warned Charlotte never to return. This would have been anywhere between 1974 and the purge.

2) Daniel landed in the DI (along with the others who skipped through time) when the record stopped skipping, that is, 1974.

3) By 1977 (according to Lostipedia) -- that is, presumably sometime in the next couple eps -- Daniel was "Joe" and worked in the Orchid, as we learned in the S5 opener.

4) When (half of) our O6 ended up in the 1977 DI (in Namaste), they asked after Daniel. Sawyer tells them that Daniel isn't there anymore-- but the way Sawyer said it gave the impression that something had gone horribly wrong with Daniel-- maybe he'd been kicked out, or even killed.

Based on all of the foregoing, I guess I'd kind of thought that #1 above happened before Daniel's departure (#4 above). But that can't be the case. Daniel had to have arrived in 1974, left on amicable enough terms that he could return in 1977 to become "Joe" -- and subsequently the crazy old man who must have warned everyone about the purge.

So my questions: how could Daniel have left and returned? If he was returning under cover, why didn't he seem at all bothered when Miles greeted him by name at the end of Hoth? And why is everyone talking about Daniel's warning Chang about the purge like it's settled fact? Did I miss something?

Thanks for indulging me. You all rock.


KoreAmBear said...

I can see Daniel in his very shellshocked state to have warned little Charlotte in 1974. That Daniel could still be around. And that Daniel could be the one crying in 2007 back on the mainland when they showed the scene of the fake Oceanic 815 and not knowing why he was crying. The 1977 Daniel could be the one that Desmond contacted at Oxford, which gave Daniel clues to eventually make it to Ann Arbor Michigan. In other words - I have no idea.

Josh H. Pille said...

Here's one idea on Daniel...

He leaves the island (no idea how) shortly after arriving in 1974-- maybe on the sub that Horace offered to our time travelers. Once back in the world, he finds his mom and he learns A LOT. Like, about time travel, his journal, Widmore, & lots of context that we've yet to learn. His mom (working with the DeGroots maybe?) schemes to get Daniel back onto the island undercover-- an agent of course correction, perhaps.

This started to gel better 5 minutes ago, before I started writing it. Hmmm..


80sPro said...

KaBear! Wow! I love that dialogue! That sounds just like the Lost Untangled skits of hilarity one can catch on - are you working for them undercover??!

I think that it's the same Dan. He's our muddled hero and won't change. I think you're right, JHP that he's been offshore trying to figure things out.

We're only assuming about the warning of Chang, but sometimes we live with our assumptions as though actual fact. It helps!

Remember that Charlotte said "a crazy man" not a crazy OLD man. Lots of people add the "old" part. But when you see it a second time it's confirmed that she doesn't ever say OLD.

Poor Dan. I really hope he gets to figure something out. Seems like a lot of bad stuff happens to him.

Capcom said...

Heheh, even if Charlotte did say "old man", when you're a little kid, everyone over the age of 15 seems old. :o)

Bigmouth said...

Be sure to stop by tomorrow, you all everybody, as I have a special post -- the Desmond Exception -- planned in anticipation of next week's landmark episode of the show.

machramm: I like this possibility of Miles making contact with himself with dire results! But I believe his power is the result of exposure to the Island as a baby. Besides, what's the practical difference between seeing someone's past and scanning their memories? I suppose there could be a reliability issue with memories ala Rashomon, but that doesn't seem to be the direction the show is going. For the most part, I think we're supposed to take flashbacks as true.

JHP: Check out my post Dr. Chang, I Presume. The Comic-Con video embedded therein is why many, myself included, believe the Purge is inevitable. As for Dan, I'm optimistic that flashblacks in the next episode will clarify his timeline from 1974-'77. Like you, I suspect he will meet someone we associate with leadership of the Others. I've been assuming it was Widmore, but you raise an equally (if not more) provocative and plausible candidate in Ms. Hawking. Good show!

KoreAmBear said...

On that Comic Con video, who was that telling Dr. Chang that his message is useless? At first I thought it was Faraday but then maybe not after hearing his voice a little. So Dr. Chang, his wife, and baby Miles time traveled 30 years into the future? Dr. Chang does hint at a new reinstituted Dharma Initiative. Perhaps it was Bram and Ilana's gang that was helping Dr. Chang tape the video? Maybe they're U of M physics/astronomy grad students. They probably had lots of time to invest in Dr. Chang's story, since the football program was getting run into the ground.

littlelink said...

So this has nothing to do with this episode but its just a lingering question I have and I was hoping maybe someone would have some ideas on it...

Back in one of the beginning seasons there were those "others" that had all the children. They walked barefoot through the jungle. Two of the kids were taken from the plane crash I believe (A blonde boy and girl maybe?). One lady from the crash joined them I think (A teacher maybe?). They had Walt for awhile... and thats all we've gotten on that!

Its driving me nuts! Does anyone have any ideas? Where are they? What is with all the kids? Where did all the kids come from? What are they doing? Will Aaron and Sun's daughter maybe end up with them? Uhg... Any thoughts?

DakranII said...

Correct, the two kids were from the crash, but the woman was the stewardess. They were taken from the beach during the night.

I've been wondering about the whole crew of "others". I thought at one point they were told by Ben to go to the Temple.

But the last time I think we saw them, Locke showed up on a hill above them as their new leader right as Ben turned the FDW and the island started skipping in time.

littlelink said...

Thank you for refreshing my memory Dankran! Its really been buggin me :-)

Here is the link to the Change video that KoreAMBear is talking about!

Josh H. Pille said...

Biggie-- Thanks much for pointing me to Dr. Chang, I Presume. The video was great and answered my question quite convincingly.

Next question about Chang... any theories on the candle/wick/wax element to the ever-changing names?

DakranII said...

I didn't catch the whole recap episode last night, but one I did catch was interesting.

When Jack visited Hurley in the mental institution, Hurley said to Jack that Charlie said you're "not supposed to raise him." Then Hurley asked, "do you think he means Aaron?"

Perhaps he meant Locke. We had no idea at the time the situation that was going to befall Locke and that Jack would be returning him to the island to "raise" him.

Perhaps the island ghosts don't want Locke there. Has this been discussed before? Is Jacob a rogue ghost of the island, working for a different ending than the other ghosts?

Synchromystic Librarian said...

i enjoy doc jensen's musings (of course ONLY after i read big's blog and capcom's 2 blogs, well actually 3 since i read her fringe blog as well), i do give doc some props for injecting esoteria into a mass audience sunch as gnostics, mk-ultra and such

anyway here is a few of my other goto lost blogs

lost hema theorymirrormattermoonlost dogonhatch 23and i'm REALLY MISSINGj woodhey anybody watch dollhouse and fringelost dollhouse

Greg Tramel said...

the reason the MIB already ate is because jacob was talking to "himself"

ok, i'll let go FOR NOW, i think i'm the only person i know that really liked fight club and other movies in that ilk