Frederich Nietzsche once argued that the mark of true greatness was the desire to live your life over and over again without ever changing a thing. I thought of this concept of eternal recurrence last night as we watched Ms. Hawking knowingly send Daniel to his death at her own hands. She didn't just accept his fate, she actively encouraged it, pushing him away from music and girls towards his destiny as a dead man of science. But this wasn't simply amor fati -- Ms. Hawking seemed genuinely torn by her actions. That tells me she did what she did grudgingly to serve the greater good.
But what could compel a mother to sacrifice her son? Probably nothing short of the fate of all humanity. I believe Hawking and Widmore have been working to save the world with foreknowledge gained from Daniel's notebook. The information therein will lead their younger selves to help our Losties try to avert the Incident. I'm guessing this plan fails because we've already seen the Swan button protocol. In an ironic twist, their failed attempt to stop the Incident will be its cause, resulting in the threat of extinction predicted by the Valenzetti Equation, as well as the crash of Oceanic 815.
By that same token, we know that older Hawking and Widmore eventually do succeed. As we've also seen, they will neutralize the threat from Swan by manipulating Desmond to the Island so he can activate the Fail-Safe. They know it has to be him due to the Desmond Exception -- fate will frustrate anyone else who tries. The catch is that Hawking and Widmore only know about the Desmond Exception because of Dan's notebook. Their whole plan thus depends on completing the causal loop that sends Dan to the Island. That's why Ms. Hawking keeps Dan on the path to death despite her obvious reservations -- she sacrifices him to save the rest of us.
But wait, you might be wondering, didn't Daniel say they were all variables in destiny's equation? He did, and maybe they've all become wild cards by virtue of Desmond's influence on their lives. This seems very possible for Daniel given that Desmond was his constant. But maybe they all have limited free will for purposes of this time loop because they're in the past as an indirect result of Des. Perhaps that's why Ms. Hawking needed to push the Oceanic 6 back to the Island. The loop that delivers Daniel's notebook to her is unstable and must be actively preserved. Otherwise, "God helps us all."
Still, something about Dan's abrupt conversion from "whatever happened, happened" to "anything goes" rang false to me. I sensed he was lying, if not to our Losties, then to himself. It was almost as if Dan's memory problems returned during his time off the Island. I was reminded of Leonard "Lenny" Shelby's self-delusions in Memento, one of my all-time favorite films. Like Dan, Lenny suffers from a condition that prevents him from forming new memories. Lenny often apologizes preemptively to people he meets in case they've met before, just like Dan did when Widmore visited.
MAJOR MEMENTO SPOILERS
And that brings me to an intriguing analogy suggested by Aaron in the comments to my recap of He's Our You. Leonard Shelby compensates for his memory problems by tattooing himself with vital information. These tattoos consist mostly of clues to the identity of his wife's murderer, whom Lenny has sworn to kill. In the film's climax, Lenny learns that this quest, which gives his life purpose, may all be a lie perpetrated by pal Teddy. Furious at being manipulated, and fearful of losing his only reason for living, Lenny tricks himself into killing Teddy by getting a tattoo of Teddy's license number.
Just as Lenny relies on his tattoos to remember clues to his wife's murderer, Daniel depends on his journal to recall what he's learned about DHARMA. So, what if someone, maybe even Dan himself, is using the journal to manipulate him? Say Daniel becomes unstuck in time during his final moments and gets transported back to a point in his life before he went to the Island. He realizes that everything hinges upon him preserving the time loop in which our Losties cause the Incident. So Dan plants a false clue to convince him -- and them -- that it's possible to change the future, then forgets he ever did so.
What might this critical misinformation be? We may never know. If I had to guess, however, I would say it has something to do with the claim that DHARMA will cause the Incident themselves by drilling too deep at the Swan site. In fact, that may be a noble lie meant paradoxically to preserve the future we've already seen by tempting our Losties to try to change it. That's all for the first part of my recap -- here, in the spirit of Herb Caen, are some three-dot thoughts on the Variable:
YOU DON'T BELONG HERE AT ALL. Faraday correctly points to the picture of our Losties in DHARMA uniforms as indication that the past can be changed from what's supposed to happen. They are "variables" because, as Daniel says, they don't belong in the past -- they're not supposed to be there. What I'm not sure he realizes is that the timeline they've all experienced -- i.e., where Oceanic 815 crashes on the Island and is followed by Widmore's freighter -- already reflects the effects of their changes. As stated previously, all of that must still happen for Desmond to save the world. That's why I say our Losties must preserve this changed timeline by playing their parts in trying to erase it in the Incident... Daniel appears to be reading his journal when he says that Dr. Chang is "right on time." I tend to think that Daniel's journal just contains everything he's ever learned about DHARMA. But you have to wonder just how detailed a roadmap is really contained therein...
JUST MAKING SURE YOUR FATHER DOES WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Daniel's comment to Miles can be taken so many different ways. Obviously, Daniel is referring to Dr. Chang's evacuation of some mothers and children, including little Charlotte and baby Miles. But is Daniel doing so, as he tells little Charlotte, in case his plan to change things fails? Or is he deliberately effectuating the changed timeline that will eventually bring Charlotte back on the Freighter? I don't think it's a coincidence that the next flashback is of Eloise deliberately pushing Daniel away from Theresa, toward his ultimate sacrifice on the Island... Some of you were skeptical that Dr. Chang wouldn't believe Daniel's claim to be from the future. But I personally found it plausible, given the foreman's crack about time travel, that Chang would assume Farday was goofing on him... I hate to say it, but Francois Chau isn't the most versatile of actors. He has an exaggerated way of speaking that actually works for the various orientation films, but seems fake when he plays a three-dimensional character like Dr. Chang...
WHY ARE YOU SO UPSET? I think Daniel cries when he sees the wreckage of Oceanic 815 because he subconsciously remembers what waits for him on the Island. Dan tells Widmore that he tested the time travel device on himself. I'll bet Dan unstuck himself in time and jumped to the moment of his death at the hands of Eloise. After jumping back, Daniel quickly lost any conscious recollection of this experience due to his memory condition. But the subconscious imprint remained and was triggered by the footage of the fake wreckage. The analogy would be to Charlotte, who seemed to jump back to her childhood conversation with Daniel about not being allowed to have chocolate before dinner... So, now we have confirmation from Widmore himself that he staged the wreckage of Oceanic 815. I'm guessing he did so to throw the next generation of DHARMA (i.e., Bram and Ilana) off the trail to finding the Island... I had a rather dark thought when Sawyer says "we belonged just fine" in DHARMA times. Sawyer does seem to belong in the past -- so much so that I wonder if he'll make the trip with the rest of them back to the future... The code for the fence is 141717. That's one of the few numbers we've received that doesn't seem to have any obvious connection to the Numbers...
THE YOU COULD GO ON WITH YOUR WORK. How sad that Eloise had to lie to Daniel. Now we know why she worked so hard to train his mind. She realized from his journal that his role on the Freighter will require him to perform complex spacetime calibrations and calculate bearings to complete the causal loop that's already changed everything... What the heck is in the guitar case Hurley keeps trucking around? I think I read a quote from Jorge Garcia somewhere that it's not Charlie's guitar. Whatever the contents, I'm guessing they have something to do with how Hurley got on Ajira 316... Phil being bound and gagged in the closet is one of many Memento references in the episode. At one point in the film, Lenny does the same to a thug named Dodd... Speaking of Phil, Patrick Fischler's eyes have to be among the most expressive I've ever seen. He manages to convey so much without saying a single word in this episode... Anyone have any ideas how a hydrogen bomb might neutralize a pocket of negatively charged exotic energy?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT. Ms. Hawking says this is the first time in a long time that she doesn't know what's going to happen next. This is presumably because her foreknowledge of events comes from Daniel's journal, which only describes the future up to the point that he died. But Ms. Hawking's comment may also allude to an even deeper uncertainty in the timeline. I believe the Desmond Exception is a dual-edged sword. The Oceanic 6 were supposed to stay on the Island, but Desmond changed their destiny by contacting Penny. Her rescue of the O6 mobilized DHARMA: TNG. As stated previously, Charles tried to trick them with the faked crash, but DHARMA: TNG was still able to find the Island by piggybacking on the return of the Oceanic 6. Widmore is having nightmares because the resurrection of DHARMA has restarted the countdown to human extinction. The coming war will be between the Others and DHARMA: TNG for control of the Island with the fate of all humanity hanging in the balance.
As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!
But what could compel a mother to sacrifice her son? Probably nothing short of the fate of all humanity. I believe Hawking and Widmore have been working to save the world with foreknowledge gained from Daniel's notebook. The information therein will lead their younger selves to help our Losties try to avert the Incident. I'm guessing this plan fails because we've already seen the Swan button protocol. In an ironic twist, their failed attempt to stop the Incident will be its cause, resulting in the threat of extinction predicted by the Valenzetti Equation, as well as the crash of Oceanic 815.
By that same token, we know that older Hawking and Widmore eventually do succeed. As we've also seen, they will neutralize the threat from Swan by manipulating Desmond to the Island so he can activate the Fail-Safe. They know it has to be him due to the Desmond Exception -- fate will frustrate anyone else who tries. The catch is that Hawking and Widmore only know about the Desmond Exception because of Dan's notebook. Their whole plan thus depends on completing the causal loop that sends Dan to the Island. That's why Ms. Hawking keeps Dan on the path to death despite her obvious reservations -- she sacrifices him to save the rest of us.
But wait, you might be wondering, didn't Daniel say they were all variables in destiny's equation? He did, and maybe they've all become wild cards by virtue of Desmond's influence on their lives. This seems very possible for Daniel given that Desmond was his constant. But maybe they all have limited free will for purposes of this time loop because they're in the past as an indirect result of Des. Perhaps that's why Ms. Hawking needed to push the Oceanic 6 back to the Island. The loop that delivers Daniel's notebook to her is unstable and must be actively preserved. Otherwise, "God helps us all."
Still, something about Dan's abrupt conversion from "whatever happened, happened" to "anything goes" rang false to me. I sensed he was lying, if not to our Losties, then to himself. It was almost as if Dan's memory problems returned during his time off the Island. I was reminded of Leonard "Lenny" Shelby's self-delusions in Memento, one of my all-time favorite films. Like Dan, Lenny suffers from a condition that prevents him from forming new memories. Lenny often apologizes preemptively to people he meets in case they've met before, just like Dan did when Widmore visited.
MAJOR MEMENTO SPOILERS
And that brings me to an intriguing analogy suggested by Aaron in the comments to my recap of He's Our You. Leonard Shelby compensates for his memory problems by tattooing himself with vital information. These tattoos consist mostly of clues to the identity of his wife's murderer, whom Lenny has sworn to kill. In the film's climax, Lenny learns that this quest, which gives his life purpose, may all be a lie perpetrated by pal Teddy. Furious at being manipulated, and fearful of losing his only reason for living, Lenny tricks himself into killing Teddy by getting a tattoo of Teddy's license number.
Just as Lenny relies on his tattoos to remember clues to his wife's murderer, Daniel depends on his journal to recall what he's learned about DHARMA. So, what if someone, maybe even Dan himself, is using the journal to manipulate him? Say Daniel becomes unstuck in time during his final moments and gets transported back to a point in his life before he went to the Island. He realizes that everything hinges upon him preserving the time loop in which our Losties cause the Incident. So Dan plants a false clue to convince him -- and them -- that it's possible to change the future, then forgets he ever did so.
What might this critical misinformation be? We may never know. If I had to guess, however, I would say it has something to do with the claim that DHARMA will cause the Incident themselves by drilling too deep at the Swan site. In fact, that may be a noble lie meant paradoxically to preserve the future we've already seen by tempting our Losties to try to change it. That's all for the first part of my recap -- here, in the spirit of Herb Caen, are some three-dot thoughts on the Variable:
YOU DON'T BELONG HERE AT ALL. Faraday correctly points to the picture of our Losties in DHARMA uniforms as indication that the past can be changed from what's supposed to happen. They are "variables" because, as Daniel says, they don't belong in the past -- they're not supposed to be there. What I'm not sure he realizes is that the timeline they've all experienced -- i.e., where Oceanic 815 crashes on the Island and is followed by Widmore's freighter -- already reflects the effects of their changes. As stated previously, all of that must still happen for Desmond to save the world. That's why I say our Losties must preserve this changed timeline by playing their parts in trying to erase it in the Incident... Daniel appears to be reading his journal when he says that Dr. Chang is "right on time." I tend to think that Daniel's journal just contains everything he's ever learned about DHARMA. But you have to wonder just how detailed a roadmap is really contained therein...
JUST MAKING SURE YOUR FATHER DOES WHAT HE'S SUPPOSED TO DO. Daniel's comment to Miles can be taken so many different ways. Obviously, Daniel is referring to Dr. Chang's evacuation of some mothers and children, including little Charlotte and baby Miles. But is Daniel doing so, as he tells little Charlotte, in case his plan to change things fails? Or is he deliberately effectuating the changed timeline that will eventually bring Charlotte back on the Freighter? I don't think it's a coincidence that the next flashback is of Eloise deliberately pushing Daniel away from Theresa, toward his ultimate sacrifice on the Island... Some of you were skeptical that Dr. Chang wouldn't believe Daniel's claim to be from the future. But I personally found it plausible, given the foreman's crack about time travel, that Chang would assume Farday was goofing on him... I hate to say it, but Francois Chau isn't the most versatile of actors. He has an exaggerated way of speaking that actually works for the various orientation films, but seems fake when he plays a three-dimensional character like Dr. Chang...
WHY ARE YOU SO UPSET? I think Daniel cries when he sees the wreckage of Oceanic 815 because he subconsciously remembers what waits for him on the Island. Dan tells Widmore that he tested the time travel device on himself. I'll bet Dan unstuck himself in time and jumped to the moment of his death at the hands of Eloise. After jumping back, Daniel quickly lost any conscious recollection of this experience due to his memory condition. But the subconscious imprint remained and was triggered by the footage of the fake wreckage. The analogy would be to Charlotte, who seemed to jump back to her childhood conversation with Daniel about not being allowed to have chocolate before dinner... So, now we have confirmation from Widmore himself that he staged the wreckage of Oceanic 815. I'm guessing he did so to throw the next generation of DHARMA (i.e., Bram and Ilana) off the trail to finding the Island... I had a rather dark thought when Sawyer says "we belonged just fine" in DHARMA times. Sawyer does seem to belong in the past -- so much so that I wonder if he'll make the trip with the rest of them back to the future... The code for the fence is 141717. That's one of the few numbers we've received that doesn't seem to have any obvious connection to the Numbers...
THE YOU COULD GO ON WITH YOUR WORK. How sad that Eloise had to lie to Daniel. Now we know why she worked so hard to train his mind. She realized from his journal that his role on the Freighter will require him to perform complex spacetime calibrations and calculate bearings to complete the causal loop that's already changed everything... What the heck is in the guitar case Hurley keeps trucking around? I think I read a quote from Jorge Garcia somewhere that it's not Charlie's guitar. Whatever the contents, I'm guessing they have something to do with how Hurley got on Ajira 316... Phil being bound and gagged in the closet is one of many Memento references in the episode. At one point in the film, Lenny does the same to a thug named Dodd... Speaking of Phil, Patrick Fischler's eyes have to be among the most expressive I've ever seen. He manages to convey so much without saying a single word in this episode... Anyone have any ideas how a hydrogen bomb might neutralize a pocket of negatively charged exotic energy?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT. Ms. Hawking says this is the first time in a long time that she doesn't know what's going to happen next. This is presumably because her foreknowledge of events comes from Daniel's journal, which only describes the future up to the point that he died. But Ms. Hawking's comment may also allude to an even deeper uncertainty in the timeline. I believe the Desmond Exception is a dual-edged sword. The Oceanic 6 were supposed to stay on the Island, but Desmond changed their destiny by contacting Penny. Her rescue of the O6 mobilized DHARMA: TNG. As stated previously, Charles tried to trick them with the faked crash, but DHARMA: TNG was still able to find the Island by piggybacking on the return of the Oceanic 6. Widmore is having nightmares because the resurrection of DHARMA has restarted the countdown to human extinction. The coming war will be between the Others and DHARMA: TNG for control of the Island with the fate of all humanity hanging in the balance.
As always, you're welcome to post anonymously, but please identify yourself somehow, so I can distinguish between anonymous posters. Thanks!
158 comments:
Noooooo! How can this be?! See what happens when he takes off the tie?!?!
Sigh...Faraday... we hardly knew ye...again. =(
Still hoping that this won't turn out like The Dark Tower Trilogy.
BTW - What kind of man of science is Dr. Chang that he dismisses Faraday anyway? He was completely open to the concept when talking to the construction worker moments before.
Bah! Shenanigans!
I know Lola, those are both things that I'm thinking.
Maybe he'll be OK, at least until next week, since we don't see him die this week. Maybe they'll take him to the temple.
As for Chang, shyahhh! The guy is trying to invent time travel, and one of his egg-heads from Ann Arbor tells him that he's from the future and he blows him off?! And here I was thinking that they should have told Chang sooner, because he deserved to know since he was working on all that. Psh.
I think this was a great episode esp. to celebrate their 100th
I'm so sad to see that Faraday had such a small part for this season. Obviously his character is important but still sad. (Skid we may never see the tie again!)
I'm not sure what I feel about Jack changing everything so that their plane never crashed. Knowing that we have another season left I can't imagine that Jack will be able to keep the plane from crashing.
I guess I'm done posting for now. I need to wrap my head around what just happened and what this could mean. Looking forward to Big's post and everyone's comments.
Okay I'm back sooner than I thought. The video where Dr. Chang talks to people about the future hasn't happened yet and I was pretty sure we heard Faraday's character as the camera man. So maybe Faraday really won't die and he officially becomes an Other. Although if you were born from two "other" parents, doesn't that make him an other from the start? You know just like citizenship :)
BTW, Wayne's been calling it all along that the Losties are the variables in the Valenzetti Equation. Don't know if Dan's theory will boil down to that, but TLE fans will get the symbolism of it even if not. :-)
You're right Christie, maybe there's still hope for Dan! Since it does sound like him, so maybe he lasts at least long enough to get back to DI-ville and talk to Chang again and make that video.
Thx for the shout out, Capcom. My leap of faith was to imagine the equation representing people, not numbers, and this was before the O6WERE the O6. I really had that idea around the time Desmond kept changing the picture on the box to save Charlie, then thinking to the chess as backgammon pieces.
Re: the video. Since things are changing in subtle ways, there's always that chance the video was never made. Capcom, the "voice" sounds pretty healthy in that recording, and now we know why baby Miles was crying in the video, maybe, because people were evacuating. You think? And sure, Chang is a d!ck, but remember, he did bump into Faraday holding that can of whatever at the Orchid (which maybe stuck in his head), combined with Miles talking it down...I think it comes down to Faraday not being the spokesman for Ann Arbor. And Chang being a, well, you know. That, too.
Here's a conundrum, if Dan is an other--see the last post of Big's where I mentioned that besides daddy issues on the show, the next theme is Raised By An(Other)--can he be taken to the Temple to be healed? Doesn't it kinda mean you become an Other, as is the case with Ben? So will the Temple be able to heal Faraday, if he isn't dead right now (I kinda think he is dead, I do)? Well, in doing my spell-check, I see how little sense this paragraph makes. Let's try this, if Faraday was raised as an Other, can he be rejected by the smoke monster for somehow not being an Other at LOST's current point in time?
Also, why the hell is Richard so damn stupid? He can't remember Sawyer, he doesn't recognize Faraday, is this what immortality does to a guy? Hell, he wasn't even paying attention when I forget who swiped Ben's cassette recorder from inside his desk (that was when Ben mentioned "you do remember birthday's, don't you, Richard?") No wonder he calls his off-Island business Mittelos. Lost Time (Memory), indeed, ha ha.
Well, James & Juliet are out of the picture so I can only imagine what nonsense Thelma & Louise (you can pick which one Jack is) try to do now. It will be fun, though. And reinforces my belief that no other show will ever compete with this one on network television.
Oh man, oh man. There are still some incredible things to come into play. For instance, what is the nature of the island to begin with? Who and what is Jacob? Who and what is Richard?
I for one am wondering if Daniel isn't Jacob. Perhaps his destiny, as Eloise so puts it, is this.
And uh anyone else notice that they are using the number 42 as a centerpiece in the Unusuals? Guess they want us to watch...or else this is a crossover and then I just give up.
LostPDX
And for those who thought Big's last post was too much of a debate, and I'll admit I did sit it out for a day or so, at least read the comments. It's not all debate, plus there are a few links put up. Seriously, it's worth it.
Here's something. Hawking tells Penny something to the effect that makes us think she can see the future most of the time.
The Swan is being built on Hostile territory. Jughead is buried there. That part I think we all kinda get.
But if Eloise the Other knew the Swan would be built over Jughead one day (however long in the future), this would explain why the Others would allow construction in the first place.
-- Okay, solid episode and everything, and I was sorry to see him go, but Daniel's spiel about realizing he and rest of them are variables was stupid and nonsensical.
It's really as simple as: All along I thought we were constants, but then I realized we were variables!? How arbitrary. That was his big discovery? Giving themselves, in essence, a different name?
He had already considered the idea that they were variables and dismissed it, implicitly, when he decided they couldn't change anything.
A disappointing for them to try to explain this. Makes a mockery of mathematics, as far as I can tell.
-- Also, this notion of exploding a hydrogen bomb on this energy pocket has bad idea jeans written all over it. Why would Jack try to follow through on it? Seems like the kind of thing that, I don't know, might destroy the entire planet?
-- I think Daniel isn't coming back. Aside from narrative considerations, and how his tragic existence has come full circle, the EW guys have been saying a major character would die by the end of the season, and I think this was it. (As much as I liked Faraday, I'm glad it was him and not Ben or Sawyer.)
That death wasn't the major death. Also, Daniel made a discovery that things might be able to be changed and that factor is the variable, the question is did he actually believe this or is he explaining this to Jack because he needs Jack to do certain things so that the incident happens. Similar to his approach to Chang.
As far as the comic con video goes the writers recently said it is not cannon but a way to tell the fans what the next season is going to be about. This is also similar to season 4 comic con video of the bunnies. That was never shone in the show, either. Only what is in the show is canon.
Referring to the post Big made on "The Desmond Exception" earlier today (or yesterday for many)...I think that was so brilliant. And I think that is exactly what is going on, that Desmond is the one who ultimately prevented the destruction of the world by Dharma by forcing the crash and that Eloise has been meddling in his life for many years to get him to the island in the first place.
Perhaps the metaphor of the island is that it indeed is the gateway to the underworld and by opening it at some point in time, Dharma inadvertently opens all of life to death. Though why Dharma started this grand island adventure in the first place, I can't fathom just yet in this context. Unless, going to Watchmen parallels, someone unknown to us so far (just who is running Dharma anyway?) has some Veidtian plan to destroy the gods in order to create a calmer, more peaceful world.
LostPDX
Thank you Neoloki for saying what I was thinking about Faraday's manipulations. The fact that he intends to detonate Jughead leads me to believe that a little lying and social maneuvering isn't out of reach for him.
Speaking of memory, there's a nod toward Eloise being able to see the future in her 'present constants' rather than because she'd experienced them from an island flash-dance. Could that be her 'power'? ..Meaning, she's uniquely this way, and everyone else who is on the wrong side of the skipping record gets memory loss of some sort. I think that maybe, and not to evoke reincarnation or the Dark Tower cycle, but perhaps there is a memory reset button when your rotation is up. Then you start again? How many times has Eloise shot her own son? How many times have the Losties crashed on the island?
Were the Others building the runway specifically to help the Losties land safely in the first place?
Apparently I've just described Jason Hunter's timeloop theory, sort of. I should have finished that Lostcast theorycast! *kicks self*
Although, I'm not sure if there is a memory reset between Jason's 'iterations'.
I like the time-loop theory a lot, but I think we may see that this cycle has been going on for much longer.
Good Morning Everyone –
Wow. 15 comments already!?!? (lol)
So glad LOST is back. I’m trying not to dwell on the fact that there’s only 3(??) left. Don’t know about you, but I view the episodes different now. In the early seasons, everything was a mystery, there was so much fun coming up with different theories, and spending hours surfing the net for all things LOST related. Now that we’re getting answers, they somehow seem almost anti-climatic. I guess ‘cause they’re more confirmation than anything else. Don’t get me wrong, I’m still enjoying the ride, but the pace is a little different.
Some rambling thoughts …
• My beloved Daniel is dead? Oh, please say it ain’t so! This was right up there with when Sayid shot Ben. But wait a minute, he can’t be dead. Remember during Comic-con and the video with Chan and the ‘unknown’ person behind the camera? Wasn’t the consensus that it was Daniel?
• Boy I strongly *dislike* Mrs. Hawkins right now. While I do believe she loved Daniel, she loved ‘her job’ even more. She knowingly sent her son to his ‘death.’
• [Someone please help me out here] Daniel came back to the island because the returning Oceanic 6 wasn’t supposed to be there. Yet, they had to be there, because their actions helped shaped the future. [Am I NOT making sense or what??] Kate saving Ben for example. As variables, they’re able to change the small stuff, but the big stuff has to happen – right? Or am I totally off base?
• Juliet. While I still believe she knows more than she’s letting on, as a woman, I *so* felt her pain when Sawyer called Kate, ‘Freckles.’ Either he was conning her, which I don’t believe, or he wasn’t even conscious of it. By giving up the code, was Jules sending her nemesis away, punishing Sawyer, or she realized that play time was over? Sawyer never responded to Jules question about having her back, foreshadowing?
• Since the new recruits have been tainted in the Dharma folks eyes, how does that bode for Hurley? What about Jin and Miles? Will it be the three of them that saves Jules and Sawyer?
• Still haven’t figured out how/what drives Desmond back to the island.
• It’s been discussed on here often, but I’m inching close to the ‘breaking the cycle’ camp. I’m confused by Hawkins comment about not knowing what happens next. Yet, she sent Daniel to his death.
• Sawyer reverted to his name-calling.
• My favorite bullet … where’s Bernard and Rose?
All in all a solid episode. I’m sure the repeat viewings and discussion will escalate my opinion. Still taking in Biggy’s thoughts about free will and such and connecting it to ‘what ever happened, happened.’
Off topic: JJ Abrams’ Star Trek. Up until last night, I wasn’t planning to see it. Whoa, *loved* the clip shown. Oh yeah, that’s a movie I definitely plan to check out …
As usual, I’m looking forward to everyone’s thought. Wishing everyone a GREAT day!
well if Daniel really is dead, I'd love to see ol' smokie turn into Mr. Farraday just to mess with some people.
Most likely candidate? Hurley or Jack.
With all due respect, I must disagree with all the talk of things changing in any way. Despite Faraday's latest (and somewhat weak) notions about people being "variables", didn't we just view more of WHH play out? In thinking he could alter things, Dan went to young Charlotte and gave her the crazy, mad man act about getting away and never coming back, thereby establishing a piece of history he had previously resolved to avoid. And while there was a widespread assumption that it was Faraday's voice heard in the ComicCon video, it was hardly established as canonical fact.
My take on how things will play out is that Jack and gang will now try to complete Dan's mission of averting the Swan incident (and thus their own Island history), but in doing so actually become the unwitting tools of fate whereby the incident was caused. It is then the occurence of the incident that brings Dr. Chang to the realization that Faraday was telling him the truth, at which point he will seek out adult Miles, knowing he really is his son. Miles in turn is the source of the future knowledge Chang displays as well as possibly the voice heard in the ComicCon vid. Or something like that...
As for Desmond, my belief that he is the sole hope for altering history grows stronger, along with the somewhat ironic feeling that he will not want to. He is safe and alive with the love of his life and his young child. Wouldn't he jeopardize all of his personal happiness, with the chance that he and Penny might not end up together at all, in an attempt to rewrite history?
Going off topic (kind of) for a sec...
Do any of you read WIRED magazine??
JJ Abrhams (sp?) was the guest editor and the issue is FULL of puzzles & clues!
Now... here's the thing... Near the end of the magazine, there is a two-page spread that has a bunch of numbers on it (some kind of ctypoquip) and in the corner is a picture of Hurley's winning lotto ticket (the key?)
I can't figure out how to solve it!!
Furthermore, when Widmore visits Daniel (after the fake Oceanic Air crash was found) He makes a pointed move to pick up and move an issue of WIRED on the couch... Here's the kicker, it's not the recent issue that JJ did (I suspect it's a copy of the issue that was out during the point in time when this episode took place)
I'm wondering if there is anything in that old issue that can help solve the puzzle (JJ even BEGS readers in the new issue to DIG for clues)
This has been driving me crazy! I knew there would be an easter egg in last night's ep that would tie into WIRED... Does anyone have ~any~ insight on this???
Why would Eloise and then Widmore come to the hospital to see Penny and Desmond? I find it difficult to understand why Eloise would bother to apologize for Desmond's condition; I remember Penny didn't ever want to see or speak to her father again, maybe he's there to apologize like Eloise did. Once again, the Others seem preoccupied with clearing their conscience.
E. Ramdass
A good episode, yes, but like Aaron I just don't follow the logic in Faraday's variable conversion. Maybe if the writers had focused on the exceptionalism of Desmond to explain the role of variables, I might've bought it. Also, and more troubling, how would H-bombing the island fundamentally alter his life enough to explain Dan's high motivation? I don't get it. I get why the 815ers would be that drastic, but Dan doesn't know enough (yet) to understand that his life would be fundamentally...altered by that change in history.
My only hope is that this doesn't end up going in a full circle and in the end we are left with a show that never happened. I don't believe any of our Losties would have been better off if the plane hadn't crashed. Yet of course hero jack will think this is his new destiny and he will go right back to his "I can fix it" self again. Hopefully he will listen to Kate that it is a bad idea trying to erase everything that has happened to them...but hey I doubt she really wants to go to prison
-lind1107
YIKES!!!
I can't believe that Daniel is dead. I love him. Yet, if it isn't him then I have the very strong feeling it will be Juliet, just to torture Sawyer some more and also because he DIDN't confirm if he had her back (thanks Pooh - I just have a feeling and your post made it stronger).
How about the fact that I was RIGHT about something somewhere. And I never wavered either. I was SURE Daniel was Widmore's son. Said so months ago. And there it was. I knew it. It was no shock. And yet, I know it wasn't for anyone else too, because we all sort of got used to the idea of it. But still, I will take my glory, for a moment.
So now back to my most stringent of theories ---- Richard is the puppet master. Last night there was something in his eyes. He wasn't playing or acting stupid, Wayne. He KNEW what was going on. He did sort of turn the questions around but the look on his face said that he for sure had some feeling about what was about to go down. He knows. All.
I dunno. The Chang video definitely holds me at bay. I so don't want Daniel to be dead. But I don't want Juliet to die either.
And don't even start on Des.
Oh, and I am VERY SURE that Widmore is NOT a bad guy. Been playing at that for awhile now and have arrived at it. I think in part he WAS trying to help his son.
I like saying that....hee hee.
I don't want this show to ever end....
Lolagrrl, I'm a faithful reader of Wired. JJ goes on to talk about his Mystery Box at http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/j_j_abrams_mystery_box.html , which left me with the feeling that when it's over, just for posterity, some mysteries of Lost will remain. I believe Lolagrrl is right about following the directions to dig. I didn't freeze the frame yet to identify which Wired Daniel was reading...kinda looked like the April 2007 with Transformers on the cover.
What about the WHAT DO YOU SEE? segments during the ad space of the show? I caught a glimpse of a couple kissing, and another glimpse of a surfer on a wave...perhaps they are Wired references as well. Maybe they are image-keys to a cryptographic method for a code that only a human being and no machine can crack.
E. Ramdass
LantzDogg in the hizzy.
As suspected by many a blogger, last night we learn that Faraday is in fact the son of Widmore and Eloise Hawking. For the rabid Lost fan, that reveal was not necessarily as anti-climatic as learning that Miles is the son of Chang, but it certainly does not fall under the mind-melting Lost reveals that we have been privy to through 5 seasons. But, if there was a hint of disappointment in the air after that reveal, it dissipated as soon as we see a young Ellie kill her own son, and come to realize that old Eloise new this would happen. Of course she did, and given her warning to Desmond about course-corrections, you knew she would let it happen. Really speaks to the power and allure of the island to the Others/Natives/Hostiles. Unless, of course, Eloise knows that Faraday will rise again. (cue Smokey’s death rattle).
What I want to know is if Eloise is in fact Penny’s mother, and if she really came to the hospital to check on her daughter, rather than to check on Desmond. “Your daughter is in their Charles…” I have my doubts. My guess is that Penny is the love-child of Widmore and his off-island mistress, who has yet to be revealed. Is that pertinent? Hmmm. For a moment, I did think that Eloise was at the hospital to make off with lil Charlie…and I would not stand for that (though my only recourse would be to yell at the television as my dog would awake from her slumber to hide from the onslaught of viewer anger).
Previously, at the Lamp Post, Eloise stated, “this is how they found the island.” What was not explained was how the Others/Hostiles, given that Eloise is in fact an O/H, got control of the Lamp Post from the Dharma Peeps. Complicating matters, I do not believe that it was an accident that Ilana and her team were on Ajira Flight 316, given their big silver case of mystery. This begs the question as to how they learned that 316 would be going to the island. They don’t have control of the Lamp Post, but at the same time, Ilana did not appear to express any interest in Benjamin Linus, which would be odd for a Dharma disciple.
I am also convinced that the conflict between Ben and Widmore is not the “war” that is coming, but rather an ongoing internal struggle for control of the island. I believe that both Ben and Widmore have a shared enemy in the Ilana-contingent. Though Ilana might not know who here enemy is (yet).
Eloise and Widmore are the perfect couple, given their quick tempers and reliance upon violence. But again, we see an exasperated Richard question why young Ellie shot Faraday. Richard appears to abhor violence, and those in the Charles camp seem to excel at it. Benjamin is certainly a violent man as well, but historically, if we look back, John Locke is not (although Naomi might disagree). John was unable to kill his father, and Richard found that to be an endearing quality. The fact that John couldn’t kill his father to be a quality that made him the ideal candidate to lead the O/Hs. But if John is really undead, as hypothesized, I guess we will find out if the “island” through Smokey, is inherently violent.
When I watched the gun battle between that twit Radzinsky and Kate/Jack/Faraday, I found myself quoting Dune, “the sleeper has awoken.” Jack is Back. And Radzinsky is no Keemy.
One of the major complaints of the casual Lost viewer is that the puzzle seems endless, and nothing is ever resolved. Although The Variable fell a little flat for me, there were certainly plenty of reveals (Widmore behind the faux crash of 815; Faraday’s family history; Why Faraday was sad and confused watching the crash coverage on TV, etc.). What would be a killer reveal strategy would be to relive an episode of Lost, but this time, through the perspective of Richard Alpert. I love his quizzical “do we know each other?” which he has uttered in bewilderment to John Locke, LaFleur, and now, Faraday. We see Richard as the ageless wonder, but Richard, on more than one occasion, sees these random people walk out of the jungle, all appearing to be ageless, with decades between their interactions.
Unrelated, for fans of BSG, older Faraday playing the piano reminded me of Starbuck reliving learning the “song” on the piano with the specter of her father. There must be some way out of here…
A bit unrelated (part 2), did any read the interview on Lostpedia with Team Darlton? Personally, I found that they came across prickly and a bit holier-than-thou, as if being subjected to the musings of fans was beneath them. Maybe “their” script for the sequel to Star Trek will suck and it will bring them back to earth, a la JJ Abrahms, who is much more tolerable after some luke warm follow ups to Alias. But hey, that’s just me.
E. Ramdass
Thank you!!!@ I didn't even think about trying to connect the "What did you see?" clips!
Here's the funny part... I thought I saw two people getting married (kissing at the end of the ceremony) and a cliff (or a cliff diver)
What did everyone else see?
Back to WIRED... the Mega Lotto puzzle... there something of a pattern in the last line of code. It's the only line with a 3-digit number too.
Damn! I don't have the magazine in front of me!
still reading all the comments
but i went back to the screencaps for the season opener but i did not see a the 1 of daniel in orchid to double-check what color the jumpsuit was/is, there has to be 1 out there somewhere, there are some good screenshots of danile's journal which my be worth looking at again
Eloise's lack of emotion and almost spaced out look when she spoke to Faraday about his work and how she cared for him pretty much told me that he had to do something important but he would die. It was confirmed when Widmore and Ellie talked, she slapped him not for the son comment but because she sent him back to the island to help the island and die. Sorry, I don't think he comes back unless it's as an apparition to Hurley or Jack.
His idea of variables might hold true, but I would lean towards the fact that the past is the past. Regardless if they are in a different time, 815 still crashed and John Locke needed to get to the island. So even tho their present is in 1977, that still happened and donating the bomb would only further contribute to the "incident". I do not think it will change things. Would the island really let that happen?
Bold Prediction - we will see Jacob by the end of the season and John Locke will speak with him
Hey! I found a link to the LOST puzzle in Wired:
http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/archives/2009/04/lost_wired_puzz.html
Oy, I really want Eloise to rush Daniel to the temple for healing. If she doesn't I'll be very sad. But if Dan was so important and necessary, according to Widmore's lecture to him, how could his work be finished yet? Unless it was just to propel Jack and Kate to carry on Dan's mission. It's all Kate's fault, they shouldn't have brought the damm guns! >:-(
Here's a cap of the wired mag: http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2009/04/29/lost-episode-5%C3%9714-%E2%80%9Cthe-variable%E2%80%9D-screencaps-easter-eggs-audio-analysis/
LOL Wayne, about Richard never remembering anyone that he meets. He must be so old that he's seriously senile. X-D I am confused tho as to how sometimes he acts like a peaceful passifist, and other times he's gung-ho to scuffle with trespassers.
y'all are lucky i habve a lot of work to do today, LOL i REMEMBER that issue of Wired
maybe you do have to be initiated as Other for the temple to fix you, that's how you lose your innocence but i'm afraid Daniel seemed more dead is dead than ben did after he got shot
"But if Eloise the Other knew the Swan would be built over Jughead one day (however long in the future), this would explain why the Others would allow construction in the first place."
AH! GOOD 1 WAYNE!
How many times are they going to have to stop the show to tell us that just because they are living in the 70s, and they also lived in the 00s, doesn't mean they can't die. Are people really not wrapping their head around it?
Heheh Greg, I'm retired, so I used to have a lot of work to do. :o) But, I hope to get a job soon though, so I won't be sitting back for long.
I, the eternal and ridiculous optimist, am going to hang on the fact that Dan's eyes are still open so maybe he didn't kick the bucket just yet. I know, people can die with their eyes open, I'm just hoping that TPTB are gonna fool us. If they do and he does revive, I don't think that we'll be finding out until next season. I had a dream about Dan last night, so it must be true. :-B
yeah, i know u and wayne were a LITTLE older than me, i'm pushing 50
i think there is something to whether somebody is buried or not on the island, if they are buried they can’t be “reanimated” for lack of a better signifier so maybe there is hope for Daniel in some entity
oh and remember Horace die with his eyes open, Bwen shut them
should have been died but u get my drift
yeah, Kate is a walking screwup, Dan with a gun was a BIG BIG mistake
actually i've often wished guns were never a part of the show
Yes let's make that clear, I'm just a LITTLE older, heheh.
Here's some screencaps for Dan's book, maybe the Lostmedia gallery will have crisper ones up soon:
http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/2009/04/29/lost-episode-5%C3%9714-%E2%80%9Cthe-variable%E2%80%9D-screencaps-easter-eggs-audio-analysis/
i'm lazy, find of picture dan from the opneing shot of the 1st episode of this season
i’m still reading thu the comments
part of what Juliet did was a bit of self preservation, yes there is love/jealousy as well but I would SO rather be following Sawyer (i mean Juliet has really made him grow some but i see sawyer as the he-man archetype) into the jungle rather than some of the other men, not that I don’t really really like and respect Daniel (as the nerdy emo archetype, my cathartic 1)
Time Lord says:
How does Faraday know all that is about to go down in DI-land? Because the Faraday that shows up on the sub in not the linear-time Faraday that was accompanying Sawyer et al. Sub Faraday is a more remote future Faraday. My hunch is that at least Hawking and maybe Ben, know so much because they have looped back from the future. Just as out Losties know about the Purge, the Swan, Jughead, these other time travelers have their own special knowledge set. Hawking has just reached the point in time from whence she originally traveled back and so is "out of knowledge." Dead is dead but we will see Faraday again -- the (almost) linear time Faraday who has not yet arrived at the future from whence he will travel back -- the (almost) linear Farady traveling along the same time thread as Sawyer et al.
Ultimately, the island may be like a Russian stacking doll where time-traveling Loopers and trying to affect what other time traveling Loopers are doing with very few people, if any, living in their correct straight-line time. These multiple loops will also clear up continuity problems like Charlotte's age.
i have the issue of wired august 2003 in front of me and the current issue with JJ but i have not got a chance to read it yet
Let us know what you find GT!
Interesting thought Time Lord, your Russian dolls are much like the Kerr timeshell theory. :-D
In Dan's notes he has written: "----- size of the universe at a -------- (-) is called the time scale factor..." Here is 'scale factor' as it pertains to the universe, not much to go on yet but maybe something else will turn up after digging deeper: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_factor_(Universe)
oh and for the what do you see ads, i'm pretty sure they are ads for the new show Flashback, that starts after Lost is over :(
Well, at least maybe we'll have something weird to talk about over it's over, boohoo.
Here is another random thought. Let's assume Daniel knew all of this would happen and knew what he had to do and who he needed to talk to, in order to put things into the proper motion on the proper timeline.
and perhaps he knew he was supposed to die, but in his last moment alive, knows to have one last thought (which would be a message to Miles). That would be neat. Miles would have a direct order from Daniel from beyond the grave.
it could happen! maybe.
Wow, interesting Neaux. He did seem rather determined to stomp into the Others' camp while waving the gun in plain sight, which would obviously raise some instant trouble!
1 last thing for awhile FOR NOW
i wonder if Richard's memory is even more shot than Daniel’s was but it has been like it for so so long he's able to cope with it and fake his way thru it
of course there may be some things like the compass and him visiting Locke at his birth which would debunk that notion but i'm not sure
Interesting. Richard either looked like he was INCREDIBLY with it or incredibly WITHOUT it. I can't wait to get more of his story. One thing is certain, he's starting to play more in to it and he's definitely interesting. I would be interested in a Richardus back story!
Neaux - I LIKE that thought. Wow. That would be so cool. For awhile I thought Miles was expendable, and now I am certain he's going to become MORE important, especially as Daddy (though unbelieving right now) has been alerted.
I wonder....Dan DID act foolhardy, like he was for certain headed for danger, and he knew it.
not to sound like a broken record (pun intended)
ATTENTION!!! TPTB!!!! MORE OTHER'S FLASHBACKS/FORWARDS!!!!!
I had the feeling too that Daniel stormed into the camp intending to start trouble? Could he have just been in a hurry?
The way Eloise told Widmore that his daughter is inside the hospital seemed a little odd to me. It made me think she was her mother as well. Then I remembered Ben telling Widmore that he was being kicked off the island for having a relationship with an outsider. Eloise would not have been an outsider, right? Or maybe she left the island to have Daniel and thus became an outsider. I suppose it's not super relevant.
I agree with some commenters that Richard knows more than he is letting on at times. He told Ellie that Dan wasn't going to shoot him. How could he be sure? Thanks to Wayne for reminding me that Ben asked him is he remembered birthdays a while back. That makes me think RA is suffering from the same ailment as Dan.
Loved the episode. Great comments all. Looking forward to Big's post.
I don't comment for a week and I forget the checkmark. Dang.
Since we know Richard Alpert never ages, you still have to wonder if he is even human. When Richard told Eloise "he wasn't going to shoot me" I really wish he would have said you know he CAN'T - either because of the island protection or is beyond human status - whatever. It just bothers me that anyone would shoot someone in the back that wasn't much of a threat. There's a crowd of people behind Faraday when he's pointing the gun at Richard. Of course I'm no weapons expert but how hard would it have been to just knock him out or take him out so that he couldn't shoot the gun? It just seemed like a really over the top way of handling the situation but I do gather that the hostiles like Widmore were maybe trained to shoot first, ask questions later. It still bothers me she shot him, even before she finds out this is her future son.
And I'm glad some of you posted about the What Did You See commercials. I tried to google it last night and came up with nothing :)
From: Segundo
Just in case it has any relevance to the WIRED puzzle, the code to the gate was 1-4-1-7-1-7 I believe.
i guess we should stop complaining about OUR mothers after what daniel's mother did to him
yeah, Ellie was WAY TOO quick on the trigger but as u say she is
an(other)
&BTW, i putting a check in the confirmed column that ellie & widmore ARE dan's bio parents, gotta give the writers a break every once and awhile
BUT the jury is still out for me if ellie is penny's bio mother, i'm leaning towards no
Hey, gang. As long as a few of you brought it up, the Comic-Con videos aren't canon. The Orchid one introduced us to the idea of time travel. As much as I wanted to see the Chang video, it became apparent early in last night's episode that it wasn't gonna happen. I think the video helped further along the idea of thinking Ilana, Bram & the rest are DI: TNG (as Big put it). Even the ARGs have a certain point, such as Find815 and the salvage boat, but don't play into the show.
@Greg, I'll go on record I turn 50 on 09/09/09. I'm always kidding about everything but the "doddering" part when I mention being old. (I mean OLD old, for most of you).
Re: the variable and all, I'd like to hold off until next week, I don't think that this episode ends Faraday's leap in faith, as it is. There should be a reason that the entire episode was cocooned by Des & Penny, and next week might push this past episode into a better understanding of Daniel's thinking. While I've mentioned the 06 as being the Valenzetti Equation, I've always said how people are being moved like chess pieces (or faceless backgammon pieces, if you will), to get required results. Desmond's picture on the box is the Equation in it's most abstract form.
I don't think that Faraday's argument on thinking he could now change things was weak, I thought he understood that certain chess pieces get sacrificed all the time on LOST, starting with Boone. He had to go all crazy from the moment he got off the sub to jump start whatever he was hoping will get done. And while I really wanted to groan when Dan talked to Charlotte, that too was part of who he is. Wanting to resign himself to thinking whatever happened happened even as, moments later, he was sacrificing himself at the Others' camp. I don't think he knew he would die, or be killed by Eloise, and I'm still surprised Richard didn't recognize him, but his point all along was to get whatever needs moving moved already. Or so I think. He came back to the Island knowing he had to both warn of the Incident and get Jack to mess things up or fix things up. Jack will be man of science again, for better or worse.
With Faraday's earlier talk about not having the scar from the flesh wound to Jack, and recent talk of Rousseau/Jin or Dan/Des, what if Widmore 2007 suddenly has a memory that his son died in 1977, killed by his own wife. (Will Widmore ever see Faraday at all aside from in 1954, I mean). I think he'd be pretty pissed off.
@80sPro, yes, you were right on Wid and Dan, good call. Any thoughts on who Penny's mother might be?
Could Penny's mother be Libby? I mean she did have an extra sailboat handy for Bruthuh (whose girlfriend is of an othuh) to race around the world - "I gotta get mah hona back, bruthuh!"? Maybe Libby going wacko which brought her to meet Hurles at the institution, was b/c she was going crazy from Charles going back and forth from the island to the mainland? Maybe Charles had Daniel doing experiments on her too ("Libby, Theresa; Theresa, Libby")? Sorry, that's out of left field and right now, after that episode, that's where I am at, in Ted Williams (not cryogenically frozen) territory -- left field. Good comments everyone.
If Libby was older, that would be a great theory! Libby isn't old enough, and Penny isn't young enough, I don't think. But that sure would be a neat twisty twist!
I'm still ticked off that it seems TPTB have said that we will not know why Libby was in the nut-house, and that they consider her story closed out as far as they're concerned. :-p
Kinda interesting that the 11.08 August 2003 issue of Wired headlines an article about various methods of Time Travel. Seems the Numbers are everlurking...
E. Ramdass
In my earlier post I slightly misstated what Faraday said. What he said was I spent all this time thinking about the constants, I forgot about the variables.
I still think this is highly stupid, and am awaiting a better explanation from the writers. It is certainly likely, given how overboard he went during his invading-the-hostiles-camp-to-detonate-bomb routine, that he was just wrong about the whole thing. Interesting too how he talks about "variables," plural, when the title of the ep was "variable," singular," and we've all been led to believe Des is the variable, single.
Anyway and nonetheless -- How does a mathematician "forget" about the variables? Variables are kind of important parts of any mathematic equation. That's like a hot dog vendor realizing he's been handing out empty buns for a week, slapping his forehead and saying, "I forgot about the franks!"
Aaron-I think the big question for the week is did Faraday actually believe the variable equation would work or was he saying this to manipulate the losties into fulfilling their destinies. I don't think we have seen Daniel's master plan yet and the only reason he even brought up the variables was to get Jack and Kate to fulfill the actions they need to take in order for the incident to happen. Similar to his approach to Chang earlier in the episode. If he was just being manipulative than you got to figure he knew he would get shot by his mom. Why else would he go into the camp with a gun and a Dharma jumpsuit?
You're wrong Aaron. Any hot dog vendor knows that the frank (Lapidus) is the constant. The condiments are definitely the variables.
As far as Libby being too young for Penny, perhaps Libby is from Richard's family and she uses their anti-aging moisturizer. Or maybe she was sent time skipping and although she is from Widmore's era, she might have been shot into the future to meet Desmond? And maybe her brain started to fry.
Anyway, it was a fun thought.
Neoloki, I hope you're right that he was just manipulating them. That would be the best outcome for both the show and my agitated mind.
But it goes back to the heart of the Whatever Happened, Happened debate. Why does he need to prod them to fulfill their roles? Jack decided not to act to save Ben, but his inaction wound up causing Ben to be saved just the same.
I guess prodding is part of destiny in one case, being passive a part of destiny in another. "Destiny is a bitch", as Ben Linus once said, or will say, or is saying, or whatever!!!
I agree Koreambear, a time-skipping Libby could definitely be a possiblity there. Heheh, it's funny how now we are so easily saying that things couldn't happen unless someone was time-skipping. But of course! X-D
Aaron & Neoloki, I mentioned above how Faraday went into that whole episode scaring everybody into action, just maybe, to get something into play. And I think his actions will be better understood if it is followed up next week. Someone above mentioned Miles soaking up Dan's memories, if that happens, we'll learn what Faraday was hiding. He was talking off the wall stuff, because he still did the Charlotte speech, so his WHH beliefs were still there. I say he did what he did--even exaggerating the amount of time before the incident--to get Jack & Co. going. Jack has to become a man of science again.
Re: Penny's mom, KoreAmBear and Capcom. I've thought about it before, but the time thing doesn't work. But it would be interesting if Widmore in some way contributed to Libby's mental health. Trying to tell her about his life, hell, her meeting Eloise and having play dates with Dan would put ME over the edge. (Well, the first part. Faraday will always be cool).
From what I understand, the writer's strike cut Libby's backstory, as any more flashback interactions would simply leave more questions than answers. If they don't get to her, I'll assume the story is that Widmore manipulated her so that she'd end up giving Des the boat, but we'll never really know why she was on 815.
Good post so far, Big. And of course, great comments by all. We should start thinking about a support group for a year from now. Seriously.
By the way, that issue of WIRED which was talked up, it has some great stuff there. But there's an article on the Georgia Guidestones, you can Google their site or wiki them. No one knows exactly who commissioned them, they were built in 1979, nine or ten languages (including Sanskrit and Babylonian) giving instructions on what steps survivors of a worldwide extinction should take to survive. Glad you brought the issue up, Lolagrrl.
Crap, one more thing. Sorry. One other reveal we got, along the lines of why Faraday was crying at the footage of the fake 815, was when he told Ellie he was from the future. It seemed strange to me that Ellie almost sounded scared, not scoffing at him. This might be because, maybe not understanding it yet, she was already getting flashes of the future as is now implied. OK, I'm done.
Wayne, yes I read your ideas and obviously I am in agreement. I have been talking about similar things all morning on different sites, but the first person I know of to formulate the idea of Faraday's intention was Doc Jensen. He even believes that Faraday will come back to life (so to speak) because of a change that he set in motion through Jack.
I hope this is alright, but I recently discovered a different Lost blog that approaches Lost theory on a very high level of discourse, similar to J.Wood and I encourage everyone to check it out because I have a feeling most people here can appreciate it.
Lost Hema theory
http://losthematheory.com/dggssglnngds.aspx
Good Morning Everyone --
As usual, loving the comments. Two thoughts:
The wonderful Mr. Wayne Allen Sallee mentioned starting a support group when this is all over. Where do I sign up?
Never heard of 'Wired' magazine until this week. No need to twist my arms, I'm convinced. I've signed up for a subscription...
Wishing everyone a GREAT day!
Hell yeah I am in for that support group! Unless they come up with something comparable to this show, I am going to give up on TV forever. No Treks to watch, no Jericho, no Lost.....sigh!
KABear - YOU make me laugh. Thank you! You are hella funny!
The question is this, really, in my eyes: Did Daniel KNOW he was going to die or didn't he? If he DID, then he knew he had to lie to get Jack and Kate to Richard's camp. If he DIDN't, then he failed.
INTERESTING to think of Widmore getting a new thought all of a sudden.
I am sad that Penny won't know her brother...
And her mom? Hmmmm, somehow Libby seems too complicated. I wonder if it's important. Somehow I think it is....or not. We never knew her. She's barely mentioned. THAT must mean something.
I want Richardus's story and I want it NOW!!!
wayne, i'm going with dan, miles, libby, hurley, charlotte, bram, illana, nanomi and kate were all playmates on the island
but correct me if the ages don't work out
sorry, i need a better spellchecker
neoloki, i've been kinda worried bout j wood, yes i'm a faithful lost hema theory devotee
wayne, yeah, the geoirga guide stones are strange, they have a rosicrucian connotation
btw, i have not read either wired YET but will 1 day soon
i do give doc jenson a pat on the back for bringing mkultra, golden dawn, gnostics, rosicrucians, project camelot and such to a mass audience
TGIF fellow "Sickies" (EyeMSick bloggers) :o)
Hey, 80sPro, "Eureka" starts back up in July on SciFi, it's a pretty cool show. Not on the level of Lost of course (for being conducive to mental olypmics or social discourse), but good enough to partially fill my "jones" for science-y drama. :o) And there's Fringe (X-Files Jr.). I miss Jericho too. And I forgot to watch the final episode, D'OH!
I was wondering about Libby being a DI baby too, GT. It's a shame about her, as her story began to get complicated and meaningful, and then she made that weird facial expression when she and Hurley were talking about how, "...people can change, right?" It really seemed like TPTB had something interesting to say there.
I bought that Wired issue yesterday for posterity. Never bought it before, but have checked it out in the past. I liked this issue, there are a lot of things there that I'll be researching into further. Do they normally have guest editors or was this J.J. issue a one-time thing?
Good post and thoughts everyone! :-D
lantzdogg, u mentioning box #2 reminded me of this i read from
lostlafleur"
Upon Osiris' return, an evil plot was put into motion. Seth secretly acquired the measurements of Osiris and began having a wonderfully decorated box built to fit those measurements. When the box was finished, Seth had a great feast to which he invited Osiris and the 72 conspirators. Having absolutely no evil in him, Osiris suspected nothing.
When the feasting was done, Seth had the box brought out. He offered it as a gift to anyone whom the box fit. One at a time they tried to fit into the box until it was Osiris' turn. He layed in the box suspecting nothing. The conspirators slammed the lid, nailed it closed, and poured molten lead in the seam to seal his fate. They threw the great chest into the Nile river. Osiris was never seen again, walking in the land of the living.
Isis was not afraid of Seth."
(she does a fringe blog as well like capcom)
oh and is box #1 the thing ben blew up to get to the FDW or are we sticking with just a metaphor
Thx Wayne. =)
Yes, WIRED is a great magazine! They usually don't have guest editors but after watching the clip of JJ at the TED conference, reading the issue ~and~ watching wednesday's episode, I realize now that they've been planning this one for a loooong time.
Some internet scrounging has revealed that all of the puzzles have been solve ~except~ the LOST puzzle! The first page translates to "USE LETTERS BACKWARDS FROM END."
Also, here's a link pertaining to the "What did you see?" ads: http://www.themosaiccollective.com
i'm actually starting to FINALLY enjoy dollhouse, it started out not so good
anyway i think it is fated to get cancelled, i've seen eureka a few times and enjoyed it
OH! lantzdog, maybe a good clue
we have never sen Richard aka RA aka Ra with a weapon , right?
Yes, Dollhouse is entertaining altho also sometimes laughable (in a good way), in that it's so obviously a sibling of Buffy/Angel (sets, actors, etc.). But I like it and it's a good concept, if they don't get too predictable. It's hard for me to take the lead actress seriously though, her facial expressions are so melodramatic. But that's just the artist-critic in me thinking that. I still watch it, and no, I could not do it better, heheh. :o)
yes, i agree, she was much much better in Tru Calling, my daughter and i REALLY enjoyed that show and were VERY disappointed when it was canceled
@Greg, I'm kinda leaning towards Abaddon being one of the 1954 Others, too. I recall, a couple years back, the idea that Libby was on 815 for a specific reason, that she had conflicting back stories to tell people. The ages aren't really a factor, if you think about it. The actress who portrays Sun is in her 30s and yet, according to Lostpedia, Sun is only 24. So unless someone, say, Locke, actually mentions his DOB, its all subjective. I can't see Hurley as an Islander because we've seen so much of his backstory, and Kate, well, it only makes sense if you realize Kate has screwed up just about everything since their return (Sawyer likely wouldn't have gone to the pylons with Ben if Kate wasn't there).
@Poohbear and 80sPro, yes, I'm glad my support group idea is a good one. We should all go to Hawaii so that KoreAmBear can host the first one, with the theme revolving around Tom and Arturo. With Lapidus on the grill, so to speak.
@neoloki, I saw you mention HEMA above but wasn't certain what it meant, thx for the link. NetProphet makes some good points, too, and his post on Desmond at the Numbers blog, Big linked to it on the Hoth post here, is fascinating. It just seemed to me that we got maybe 3/4 of a story and that the rest is both up for debate plus will be answered in some way. Perhaps, since Faraday wrote in his journal that Desmond was his Constant, Des will awaken in the hospital and know Dan is dead. Lots of ways next week's episode can go before the finale.
@Aaron, I think the prodding was part of whatever the hell Faraday WASN'T telling us. My only thought is that Dan needed to stop being a man of faith. Could Widmore have visited him in Ann Arbor as Bigmouth mentioned? So far, I've never had reason to call b.s. on this show and how different elements play out. That's why I think there is more to what Dan was up to, kind of like doing a Ben, manipulating events and keeping us in the dark.
And I am ready to call Hollywood direct and tell them to give us an Others flashback already, through Juliet or Richard or space aliens, just do it. We still haven't seen the Temple, we've seen the fence and we've seen Ben fall underneath a hallway nowhere near the Temple.
@poohbear, WIRED is a great mag, even though I pick and choose articles, though I read most all of them. I have a link on my own blog to a great article a few years back, writers were given the chance to write a story in six words. The concept started in Hemingway's time, "For Sale: Baby's shoes. Never worn." A lot of great science fiction writers like David Brin and Greg Bear posted.
Enjoy the weekend, everyone.
@Greg, Richard's never held a weapon, but he always seems to have a cup of water (or vodka) in his hand.
@Aaron, I also meant to say, if the episode title was "Variable" singular, this could be the element Dan was keeping from us. Or a variable he discovered in Ann Arbor.
Yeah, those Rosicrucians are crazy. I worked at a printing plant for two years and twice had to print these color booklets (on velvet paper, no less) for an annual meeting for these guys, a branch in Ohio. The group photos were the creepiest. There is a direct link via Google to the Guidestones main page, and you can even see them on Google Earth, along with photos posted of the recent vandalization.
Fire up that grill, KoreAmBear. Saturday's on its way.
or i guess his cup is full of fountain of youth juice
Has anybody tried watching Carnivale? I have been giving it a 2nd watch and am REALLY enjoying it. It does have a Lost connection too with Jack Bender directing some of the episodes and Clancy Brown (kelvin) playing Brother Justin. Also, Ronald D.Moore is a co-creator (BSG). It might be too weird for some but if you give it a chance it definitely will grow on you.
Has anybody heard who the centric character is for "follow the leader"? When I saw the title I assumed it was Jack, but someone on sledwebs site said it was Richard. Any idea's?
Some other promos make it look like the beachers are following Locke, Neoloki. It looks as if the ep might be jumping around between 77ers and 07ers again.
YES, Carnivale was EXCELLENT
yep, i watch TOO much tv
Sorry, I had to be the 89th post. 88 is a great number - for LOST, for feng shui, and that's even my HS graduation year, lol.
Yes, Bigmouth followers reunion party at my house this summer. Hope all of you can make it.
I agree with the notion that Ellie Hawking 1977 knew something was up when she found out that she just killed her son. I definitely noticed that this was not a natural reaction if she had no idea who he was. She would have had the "ya right, you're my son" reaction if she had no inkling.
Oh btw, at the party, I plan on getting a DJ to spin Geronimo Jackson and maybe hire a Drive Shaft tribute/cover band. Lots of them these days.
Oh and anyone catch of the significance of the number little Faraday came up with as the number of beats on the metronome?
Anyone know what year it was supposed to be in the beginning of the episode (Daniel playing the piano). As I recall, Eloise was on the phone & she was crying. Then she came over and told him to stop playing... If that was pre-1977, then she knew she was going to shoot him on the island.
Either way, she knew ~something~ since she was visibly upset as she started Daniel down his path.
what an episode, poor eloise, having to force her son down a path that ends with her shooting him. I would really like to se the others take him to the temple, but im not so sure that they'll do that. Something about the quote from Lil Dan at the piano "I can make time.." really resonated with me, and i dont think weve seen the last of him by any stretch.
KoreAmBear: about the number of beats, im pretty sure when you divide it by 8 the answer is 108.
I think there will be at least one more death of a significant character...though i refuse to define "significant" because we all have our own points of view on each characters significance to the show. Something about the way Dan said "any one of us could die" to Jack made me think that one of our original Losties may kick the bucket.
Why did Chang so easily dismiss Faraday's claim that he was from the future? Wasnt he just discussing the possibilities of time travel?
I havent had the chance to read any of the comments so im sorry if im reiteratiing questions that have already been asked/answered.
Crazy last minute thought i just had.....what if adam and eve turned out to be widmore and eloise?...not sure how that would happen at all, it just popped into my head and it made me laugh so i figured i'd share.
I just had to pop in briefly to reassure Greg Tramel that there's no such thing as too much TV!
rabbit in a glass
oh, and i got that rabbit in a glass link from
the odii try to convince my wife every day there is no such thing as too much tv (she won't watch lost or fringe or dollhouse but i did get her hooked on medium)
Two quick things, correcting my errors really. I meant that Faraday had to go from being a man of science and take that leap of faith if he really was trying to twist around the whatever happened happened scenario.
Also, I referred to "Jughead," Dan tells Ellie that the Island will be there fifty years from [now], and her voice wavers when she says "what do you mean?" or "how do you know?", whichever one. Does Ellie see the future in 1954 for brief moments?
Just fixing the first error really, as it would make no sense the way I wrote it the first time.
Hey, Big! Who is Penny's mom?
Wow, that rabbit in a glass thing is strange.
I'm just hoping that I accidently run into a spoiler that says Dan is not dead. :-( A girl can dream can't she?
One more request Big, if the LOST bloggers haven't already explained -- why doesn't Danny Boy have an English accent when his mum (esp.) and dad both do? Did he go to Jin's school of getting rid of accents to wean off saying "schedule", che-jule?
He spent much of his time in LA, so that his mom could be at the special finding Island Dharma station, KABear.
Greg - I did some special research on my darling Richardus yesterday. The first time he meets young Ben in the jungle he is wearing a gun. Plain sight. Nice big one, too.
Also, HE is the one who shoots Keamy - don't forget that!!!
Oh yah, Richard is not averse to guns. Just age. A true Highlander. Thanks for reminding us, 80s pro.
I got nothin'. (But, yea, thx 80sPro and doh, of course Richard shot Keamy, one of the few times he wasn't sipping his anti-aging vodka). As I said, I got nothin', just helping this thing along to comment 108. B-dip B-dip B-dip.
I'd like some anti-aging Drambuie. :o)
Enzo Valenzetti once said "other could have as much fun as he did in solving it."
What if the "other" is Faraday?
wayne, i don't think we have seen Hurley as a baby or have we?, have we seen anybody other than Aaron, Ethan, Alex and Miles as a baby? please remind me if i'm forgetting somebody, my memory is sometimes as shot as Dan's, i don't remember Ra shooting Keamy but i do sometimes glaze over during the shootouts
anyway i am going to throw at my wackadoo theory, i think that's what Big calls them,
ALL the main characters were on the island as babies at some "time" or an(other)
here's YET another 1 of those variable(s):
"In the continuation of the scene from "Confirmed Dead" in which Daniel reacts to the news of the faked Oceanic Flight 815 crash, Daniel's hair is shoulder-length, whereas in the old scenes from season 4, he has short hair."
flashbacks are slightly different when re-visited
once i hit the 2108 comment i'll stop for AWHILE, lol
another screenshot form another source to help verify it was actually there
rabbit in glass
of course that should have been #108
"Daniel played "Fantaisie-Impromptu" on the piano in "The Variable" —
twice. 'I'm Always Chasing Rainbows' is a popular song."
lost dogon
ok, maybe 1 more thing, i ran across an article that claims to verify daniel's fate
don't wan to post it as a maybe spoiler here so email me if u want the link
gregtramel@gmail.com
@ the last paragraph:
Swan "site" not "sight" correct?
-a grammar nazi
P.S. I've read everyone one of your LOST articles religiously (please excuse the sacrilegious connotation of such a statement), never really have anything to say, so figured I'd start it off with a correction : P
Keep it coming dude.
grammar nazi: Whatever do you mean? There is no error...[waves his hand like Jedi]
Seriously, thanks for the kind words and the correction!
@Greg, no Hurley baby, I believe the earliest we saw of him is when he was working at Mr. Clucky's. I just go by thinking certain characters story arcs are over, including Faraday's, and w/o checking anything further, I'd guess that the youngest 815er we've seen in flashbacks is Locke. Might be wrong.
That's why I'm thinking we'll get one more Juliet episode, which would fill in a lot of gaps with the Others, and sadly, which makes me think that the arc will end with her death. Which, if Miles remains after everyone else on the freighter has died, might lend creedence to your idea because then we are left with original DI kids/Others (though maybe from a different reality loop). This is also what makes me think Juliet will die.
The real question is why it is this core group of people-the O6 more or less-are more important than anyone else who has died, Charlie, Boone, Ana-Lucia, Frogurt, etc.?
Dan's notebook is now a tangible loop compared to the compass Richard and Locke played hot potato with, because we never did see where or with who the compass originated. Hawking gives her son the notebook and then will take it from him after killing him. A different loop, but where did it begin. Were the 06 instrumental in making certain Faraday and his notebook would be in the Others camp in 1977? Did they protect him along the way, either in 2004 or during the time flashes? One of my less-thought out theories is that Desmond consciously gets his picture on the box flashes whereas certain others have this ability while on the Island and simply do not know it exists within them.
oh! that's right, we did see Locke as a baby, wasn't RA looking in the maternity ward window when Locke was born? and we saw Charlie Hume as a baby
we're Charlie, Boone, Ana-Lucia, Frogurt & Artz buried?
and i think i read somewhere this week is RA centric, I HOPE THAT IS RIGHT! and i remembered correctly!
@Greg, you sound like Faraday when you say "I remembered correctly," ha ha. Lostpedia has a lot of quick answers, but Arzt blowed himself up and Charlie is still, I guess, in The Looking Glass. I'd also assume that anyone killed in the time flashes weren't buried, though I found it interesting that the Others in 1954 retrieved the two 815ers killed by the Claymore, they took their bodies from the creek.
As a bridge to the final episode of the season, a Richard episode would make sense. I could see him in between flashbacks all pissy with Eloise, with young Ben back wherever he is recuperating, and when he first recruited Juliet at Mittelos. These would be decent framing sequences for the rest of the reveals.
@Bigmouth, great three-points there. I have to go into the Incident with the idea that Faraday knows of the exotic energy and not the rest, at least the way we know it as it played out. That said, do we know that The Incident is the same one Chang mentions on the Orientation video? My assumption was that the Swan had been active for awhile before the Incident occurred, and the blast door map places the Incident in '85 or '86. And if Radzinsky wrote it down, well, it probably wasn't a mistake. Dan's concern is the exotic energy, so what if, in his way of thinking, say the energy rips open time/reality/whatever, then tearing open Jughead--detonating it, but using that same image of a tear--would kind of cancel each other out. Say that the button needed to be pressed every 108 minutes otherwise JUGHEAD'S energy would recede and the exotic matter would escape? Behind that magnetic wall is Jugheead acting as a plug in a dyke. Maybe it is Jughead who needs powering up every 108 minutes. Maybe the failsafe key then acts as a last ditch release, a variation of Jacob's well, in the event Jughead failed to contain the energy.
We got to see Hurley as a child when he was working on the car with his dad. We also saw Jack as a kid too, I don't remember what all happened in the flashback but I know we saw him. Also we saw Sun when she broke the glass ballerina, and I think we saw kate as well...or at least heard her voice on her time capsule tape-recording...with toy airplane guy. Oh and we saw Swayer under the bed when daddy shot himself.
I forgot Siad we saw him kill a chicken.. oh so many flash backs to remember
Also loving the comments, Big your amazing! I usually do not post...but I'm an avid follower!
Wayne: You know, it's funny, I never even considered who Penny's mom might be. Do you suppose it's someone we already know? Regarding the date of the Incident, I would be careful about drawing conclusions from the Blast Door Map. There's a notation about the "AH-MDG INCIDENT OF 1985," but I doubt that's the Incident mentioned in the Swan orientation. Remember, the film strip has a date of 1980, and it probably was made after the Incident mentioned therein.
KoreAmBear: My grandfather on my dad's side was born British but emigrated to the US a a very young boy. Kids can be cruel and his classmates quickly beat any British accent out of him. That's probably what happened to Daniel as well.
Heather: Thanks and glad to see you posting!
New comments from Cousin Brandon's LOST Blog. And by the way, great job once again, eyemsick.
http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/710espn/blog?id=3937846&post=4117242
New comments from Cousin Brandon's LOST Blog. And by the way, great job once again, eyemsick.
http://stations.espn.go.com/stations/710espn/blog?id=3937846&post=4117242
@Heather, I agree about the flashbacks you mentioned, though Kate was, what, around ten? But what I was getting at, but wasn't really clear, was that we didn't see MUCH of them, a scene or two, as kids. There were three flashbacks of Locke, the third putting him a bit older than Kate, in "Cabin Fever." But your references show that the O6 were not born on the Island. Granted, Kate had a step-dad, but that was a variation of the daddy issue. I was just adding to Greg Tramel's post, really just stating that Locke is the only one we've seen a ton of in his younger years. I wonder if we'll ever know who his father was?
@Bigmouth, I've wondered about Penny's mom ever since, well, I don't even recall. I guess knowing Widmore was her dad cast a shadow over it all. I never gave much thought as to who Desmond's parents are, because, like Penny's mom, they never seemed to figure into things.
I agree that there might be more than one Incident, I've said before I initially thought it was the Purge but have also thought about some minor volcanic occurrence. But Marvin Candle himself seems to imply that the Swan was in use before the protocol was instituted in the 1980 Orientation film. I was throwing it out there that the causal loop has changed the date of certain events.
And, man, what the hell was the deal with the rabbit in that glass. Just plain eerie. Since Eloise is giving Faraday the journal at that moment--the beginning of that specific loop--I'm guessing the symbolism is that it was quite clear Hawking saw Dan as her "test subject." Still a creepy image, thx to Greg for posting the link.
"Ms. Hawking says this is the first time in a long time that she doesn't know what's going to happen next. This is presumably because her foreknowledge of events comes from Daniel's journal"From Desmond's original meeting with Hawking we know she has more knowledge about the future than what is contained in the journal (I doubt Dan's journal mentioned the impending doom of the red shoed man).
My thought is that just like Desmond got his future-seeing ability with an explosion at the Swan, maybe Hawking -- feeling guilty about what she has done -- will volunteer to carry out Dan's plan for Jughead and she too will get the "gift".
And like Desmond, who seems to have lost that ability once he did what he was supposed to do (allow Charlie to die), maybe Hawking has now lost the gift now that she has done what she was supposed to do (allow Daniel to go to the island).
James
I'm guessing 1977 Widmore is forced to exile Eloise for killing Daniel, since it may be a basic rule that no Other may kill another Other, aside from being a mother. It's possible she's already pregnant with Daniel when she shoots future Daniel. I think Penny is older than Daniel, so Widmore has been shacking up with Dharma Lady during off island visits to see the female member of the band Geronimo Jackson. That's my answer to who might be Penny's mother.
I've cooked up a theory that Widmore was originally part of the military assualt that paratrooped the island before 1954. Most of the soldiers perished as the Others defended their homeland, but Widmore must've swung a deal with Richard to stay and lead in exchange for allowing a few of the soldiers to leave the island who then formed the band Geronimo Jackson.
E. Ramdass
@Wayne: got it I see where you were heading with that, we did see a lot more of Locke I just don't think any of our 6'er's were island born.. just wanted to remind people that we saw them all as children at some point...
Although I guess that does not rule out the possibility...never know on lost :)
Off topic NBC just announced their new fall line up and there is a new show on there called "Day One" basically sounds like the same concept of Jericho about our apocalyptic future, and a group of survivors that need to figure out what happened...sounds kind of intriguing
Well, whatever is about to happen -- Incident, Accident -- it's about to happen in fours hours according to Dan, when he was last talking to Jack and Kate. :-0
wayne & heather, THANKS! for the reminders, my time riddled memory needs all of the help it can get these days
i meant i was thinking they were babies for a brief "time" on the island, not necessarily born there or spent their childhood there
anyway, i guess the point i am after is since we have seen many of the freighters had a previous connection to the island it seems that the 06ers might also have as previous connection, maybe it is their parents that had been on the island before instead of the actual 06ers
@Capcom, true. I really like how these last two seasons have condensed their time frame. Granted, three years pass in S5, I just mean the latter half of the season take place over maybe three days. Last season was about the same, maybe four days.
@Bigmouth, I forgot about your question, have we seen Penny's mom on the show already? Hard to say, certainly not Swoozie Kurtz (Locke's birth mom). I suppose it could be a someone evacuated in 1977, but we only know Amy, if she even leaves (meaning she is an Other). Again, something I've not put much thought into it only because Widmore was the big thing.
Oh, and Heather, DAY ONE sounds cool, but I kind of like the impending extinction aspect of things. ON THE BEACH and ALAS, BABYLON come immediately to mind, the first, by Nevil Shute, was made into a film with Gregory Peck and, I believe, Ava Gardner. They are in Australia and are just waiting for the radiation to spread from the northern hemisphere. I'll likely check out DAY ONE, though; the networks need something to take off and be in its second season when LOST ends.
@Greg, you were commenting as I was typing, I know what you mean by a brief time, considering Miles was a baby. Check the characters on Lostpedia, it's where I go when my memory's doing a Faraday. I suppose the real argument is how that fact could be convincingly revealed in the little amount of time before the show ends.
As Heather posted, though, this IS Lost...
By the way, Greg, where are you finding the links for, say, the bunny in the glass? My browser isn't allowing me to cut & paste.
yeah, i thought about that the other day,I should check lostpedia for ages, DUH!
to make a link in a comment you have to do it in this format (or at least that is how I do it)
123the odi123
WITHOUT the 123 at the beginning and end, had to do that so it would not show up only as a link
if u need more help let me know
this is kinda cryptic, i''ll try to email u
oh it stiil showed up as a link
let me try again
href="http://the-odi.blogspot.com/">the odi
put put a less than sign where the x is and leave the x out xa before the href
put less than sign where the x is and leave the x off x/a> after the odi
between the "" is the url
where the odi is is where you put the name that displays for the link
something completely different, what some of my friends would call a synch wink
AMC (home of Breaking Bad & Mad Men, I dig both shows, anybody know when Mad Men starts up again?) is doing a remake of The Prisoner (a weird tv series from the 60s) the lead actress’ name is RACHAEL BLAKE! don’t you love it!
you can also watch episodes of the original 60’s The Prisoner at their webpage
The Prisoner (1960s)
ramdass, penny's mother is a member of geronimo jackson!, YEAH!
i'm sticking with ellie and widmore are daniel's bio parents but this is intresting
"it would seem nearly impossible for Eliose and Widmore to be Farraday's parents since they both have blue eyes and Farraday's are brown. That would mean that one of his parents have to have brown eyes because brown is a dominant trait."
1 last question before i get to go home, (i'm still at work)
when dan was in ann arbor, what year was it in ann arbor?
btw, i even took a quick look at lostpedia and did not see a date
It's hard to tell about when Dan went to Ann Arbor GT -- when the Ajira-O6 get to the island, they ask if Dan's there, and Sawyer says, "Not anymore." So somewhere between when they landed and three years later, is a far as I can tell when he could have gone (barring that I missed anything obvious stated about it, which I could have).
Heheh, "Synch wink". X-D
Looking forward to the new Prisoner with fear and hope -- let's hope that they redo it properly. And, with as much creepy camp as the first one. It's Secret Agent, man! :-D
Is it a continuity error that upon arrival in the sub, Daniel shows Miles a fax of the photo of new Dharma initiates from only 3 days ago? I don't know where the sub departs from, but I'm assuming it takes more than 3 days to get to the Island. Heck, the doctor's body washed up on the shores of the Island 3 days before radio contact confirming he hadn't been killed yet.
E. Ramdass
It shouldn't take three days if you went through a vortex right into the opening in the Looking Glass, heheh. :o)
**SPOILER ALERT**
The ufo site has 5 sneak peak clips, I guess form the ABC.com site. They are just blow-away scenes. If you just want to react naturally on Wednesday, don't go here:
http://spoilerslost.blogspot.com/2009/05/episode-5x15-follow-leader-five-sneak.html
let me rephrase it
when daniel was in ann arbor was it > than 2006 or < 1978 IN ann arbor
I'd guess somewhere in between 1974 and 1977, unless there was some time travel in the sub that we didn't get told about yet. Lostpedia doesn't have "The Variable" on their Timeline yet as of yesterday, but it should be updated soon, so we should keep checking back, maybe they can figure it out.
ok, that's was what i was wondering
it was the same time as the o6ers in dharmaville on the island and not the same time as when the losties were off the island before the ajira flight
That's what I'd assume, since Dan was time-skipping with Miles, James, and Juliet (after Charlotte died and Locke jumped with the wheel), and it seems like he would have ended up with them in DI-ville in 1974. How long he stayed with them before leaving for Ann Arbor is a mystery, but then he returns in '77 on the sub. I wish that we knew more about that, but I doubt we will. :-(
so they didn't just go back in time on the island they went back in time in the whole universe
James: Good point re Ms. Hawking's foreknowledge of the man in the red shoes. I absolutely love your speculation that Eloise will begin seeing visions after carrying out Daniel's plan to avert the Incident using the Jughead!
E. Ramdass: You think Charles was shacking up with the blond from Geronimo Jackson? I dig it!
Wayne: How crazy would it be if Penny's mother turns out to be Carole Littleton?
Hmmm, that's a very good question. But for simplicity's sake, I'd guess that World Time is in the same place as the Island Time for them...mostly because Dan mentioned that he guessed that they were the ones who were time skipping, not the island. So, assuming that the island moves from place to place but not time to time, the FBs skipped back in World and Island Time, which was the '70s.
But, feel free to pick that apart if I'm off-base. :-)
@Greg, part of the confusion with Faraday, I think, was in showing him in the opening scenes of the first episode. By the time the O6ers show up, Dan is long gone, with a sub showing up that day. And yet another sub shows up two days later, with the Ann Arbor people. I don't think there were ever two subs, rather, the vortice off the coast of Portland that (as Capcom states) presumably opens up in the Looking Glass moon pool rather than at the Pala Ferry area. (Otherwise why have the moon pool, i.e., that huge swimming pool area where Des and Charlie popped up, why not have scuba gear?).
If Faraday's notebook was filled with everything he knew about the DI, it was filled while he was in Ann Arbor, because the Orchid and the Swan were the two things he was interested in and they weren't around in 1974. I'll take a guess that he left on a sub in 1974, but I'll be damned how he got on it, unless he went back on the same sub that "brought" the O6. I can't see him filling even part of that notebook on the Island, and he is always flipping BACKWARDS through it. The only out of sequence thing is his big box in red letters about Whatever happens, Desmond Hume being his Constant. (Different ink, bigger writing). This is what leads me to believe that somehow, Desmond gets a memory of Dan being dead (or some such event that galvanizes him).
The thing that seemed lame is him even seeing DI 77's photo shoot, why the big deal, unless it was to show the people in Ann Arbor who showed up ok? In the previous episode, I just though Faraday came back because of the Swan being built. Either way, it worked, but it seemed a bit contrived.
@Bigmouth, after you commented, I did think of Claire's mom, of anyone we've seen before, but dismissed it. If only because the whole Mrs. Littleton being in L.A. at the same time as Penny seems convenient. Yet, sometimes that is what LOST is all about.
Here's another one: what brilliant man (however Hawking said it) was responsible for the Lamp Post? Faraday? There was a reason we saw that 1954 Army photo on the wall, Dan could have worked forwards from the military's coordinates (somehow), to the freighter coordinates, then had the pendulum built. We are of the assumption that the DI always knew of the Island moving, I think they, like the US military and Oceanic 815, were lucky/unlucky to see it. Anyone else thinking that the pendulum is reflected in kid Faraday's metronome?
I'm getting knocked off the computer, my nieces want to play Club Penguin.
LantzDogg...present!
@WAS
I think you hit it out of the park with your feeling that Juliet is going to die.
Think about it. For four seasons of riveting television, the writers have made a concerted effort showing the rawness and authenticity of the Sawyer/Kate relationship. Like many “real life” relationships, this relationship is incredibly complicated and incredibly passionate. I mean the man threw himself off a helicopter to give his true love a chance at survival.
Flash forward to this season, and to my surprise, through the writers, the Juliet and Sawyer relationship feels just as real. It feels that Juliet and Sawyer, even with the return of Kate, have an undying love for one another. Juliet silenced the inner-monster that rages within Sawyer. They settled down into a domestic life, safe and secure, and “regular” on the island. It was a life that Sawyers always wanted but never had following his parent’s murder suicide, and his decade long journey to avenge their death. It was something that Sawyer and Kate knew they could never have with one another. Juliet gave balance to Sawyer.
Why?
Lost is not a love story.
• Charlie falls in love Claire and later sacrifices himself to give Claire and Aaron a chance to get off the island.
• Sayid’s true love Nadia is murdered. Even his island love with Shannon is cut short by Ana Lucia.
• Jack’s marriage to Sarah fell apart
• Kate’s childhood love Tom Brennan was killed due to Kate’s fugitive-ness (not a real word, I know)
• Daniel fell in love with Charlotte. The island, via timespace sickness, killed Charlotte. Daniel’s mother later killed Daniel.
• Locke’s attempt at love with Helen ended with leaving Helen over his obsession with his father. She later died (or may have been killed by Widmore)
• Hurley falls for Libby. Michael kills Libby. Hurley is alone again.
• Michael’s marriage to Susan falls apart. Susan dies.
• Juliet’s husband Edmund Burke is killed by a bus. (Ethan and Alpert?)
• Juliet falls for Goodwin. Ben puts Goodwin in harm’s way. Ana Lucia kills Goodwin.
• Jin and Sun are currently separated by a few decades.
Other than Rose and Bernard, and to date, Penny and Desmond, there has not been happy endings when it comes to relationships, and I have not even touched on the significant daddy issues: Jack/Christian;
Ben/Roger;
Sun/Mr. Paik;
Kate/Wayne;
Miles/Dr. Change;
Locke/Tom Sawyer;
Michael/Walt…
I could go on.
My point being…..why is it so critical to the storyline to have Sawyer and Juliet fall in love?
What is the point?
I will tell you.
What does Lost do better than any other show on television? It takes the viewer down a path and then BOOM, pulls the rug out from under us moments before the black screen of LOST!
@WAS is correct. Juliet will die. She will die saving Sawyer. The island demands sacrifices. She will do willingly to save Sawyer, whom she loves. Sawyer will not be happy. This is the understatement of the year. He will wage war and spill blood in an attempt to quench his thirst for revenge. His sleeping demons will awake. Carnage. Death. Destruction. The war is coming and James Lafleur is the Harbinger of Death.
Lastly, the relationship scenario listed above leads me to another theory. Given their unrelenting love for one another, and the fact that Rose is saved by the Island from her inevitable death from cancer…we will learn that Rose and Bernard are Adam and Eve.
It's hard to imagine a guy named "LaFleur" being too violent. Feel the rage of the flower!
Wayne -- Nice metronome-pendulum reference -- there has to be a connection, wow. Any allusion to Edgar Allan Poe's pendulum?
There must also be a connection to the number of beats that little Danny Boy recited after Ellie (other mother of the year) asked him.
Is Geronimo Jackson going on tour this year? Indian Gaming Casino circuit? Clubs?
I can't wait for the last 3 eps., but then the 9 month lull. Uh, baseball can carry be so far. What's going to get me over to college football season? And no, So You Think You Can Dance is just not going to cut it. More Susan Boyle?
I wondered if the name LaFleur was a take on Lefler in Star Trek:TNG who debuted in the "Darmok" episode which involves an anomalous monster made up of electromagnetic energy...sounds familiar.
E. Ramdass
@Lantzdogg, shizzle my dizzle.
Thx, and you really came up with a good list of doomed relationships there. You'll be reminded that you forgot Tom and Arturo, I'm sure it will be mentioned an other commenter.
It just seems logical that Juliet will die, its not like LOST is trying to give us a "very special episode." Its like a brick in the concrete path somewhere ahead, and Sawyer will be pissed. That's something we need, the DI that we've seen are pretty much asshats and alcoholics (and Others, if this Amy thing play out). Circle of Trust BS, Radzinsky pretty much insane with paranoia, Phil with the crazy eyes. Mr. LSD. Hell, Horace himself built Jacob's cabin. I want to see James Sawyer/LeFleur beat the snot out of any one of the DI like Desmond did to Ben at the marina.
@KoreAmBear, interesting comparison to The Pit and The Pendulum. The Lamp Post is below ground level. The pendulum swings downward, the metronome upward. You got me. Too bad Tom isn't around, maybe we'll see him tomorrow.
Oh, I found out earlier that the "young Tom" is Kate's Tom, not Tom Friendly with Arturo, Tom. Rats. I wanted to see the dashing Tom growing up in NYC, graduating from Stuyvesant and attending Dartmouth, until he got hooked up with Mittelos.
Heather - another Jericho? AWESOME!!!
Ohhh, now really guys. Carole Littleton - THAT would be interesting. You KNOW that inevitably these people are ALL going to be 6 degrees of separation from each other. Hell, they are already. I bet it's even closer than that.
Big - fun exchange with an anon there. The waving hand like a Jedi thing was hilarious!
Wayne - the way you had to give up the computer was too cute!!
I want more Richard and I want him now. My RA. My Richardus, My Ancient Egyptian!
RA is the man. I love how he looks ambiguously clueless yet omniscient at the same time, when anyone confronts him about anything. He wears rags, but then often wears these nice dress shirts with slacks. This guy is complex -- a metrosexual's metrosexual.
That's one thing that really gets me, man. I'll never look like Nestor Crbonell, hell, I started losing my hair three decades ago, but, man. This guy steps out of a tent on an Island with presumably tropical weather, not a drop of sweat on him, no sunburn. And don't even get me started on the clothes, KoreAmBear. (Though I have to admit, when he was in tatters meeting young Ben outside the sonic fence, because he was in the shade, he kinda looked like John Stamos. Three nieces, too many years of FULL HOUSE, yea, I know).
Seriously, though, you guys think Miles will talk to Faraday's ghost brain and Richard will be like Holy Crap! or Suffering Sun-Gods! because here's a guy who talks to ghosts, whereas Ben just impressed him by seeing his dead mom? (Of course, he could just pull a Sawyer and give us a Sonuvabitch...)
And 80sPro (and Big), if anything, we'd learn that Carole Littleton certainly did sleep around (or, at least have a pretty bad track record if Widmore and Christian were her two loves).
Hmnn. When Widmore was banished and out on the sub, if the Island was someplace else, could they have dropped him off in Sydney? Actually, the Island could be where it was in 2004, still, why not Sydney?
The sub has one direct route, to Portland, and there is a $15 charge for each checked in bag, Dharma corn nuts & Dharma cola are included but you have to pay for the snack pack with a sandwich in it (Hurley made it). You get Alaskan Air flight miles though.
I still think RA looks like a relative of another timeless wonder, Conor MacLeod, The Highlander.
Also, could RA have actually been with Pharaoh or was he Pharaoh during the time of Moses (and Jack Shepard being the Moses figure) and or the time of Jacob?
Oh, you guys might already know this but Jacob's wife Rachel died while giving birth to their youngest son Benjamin.
Speaking of the sub, I'm thinking that the sub goes through a portal/vortex, catches and follows the beacon to the LG (where new passengers to the sub drill are possibly given something to bring them out of their drugged state) and then the sub procedes to the dock, where their arrival looks all normal and business as usual, to the waking recruits. ???
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